View Full Version : Another great use for MyWireless - phone calls
14-02-2004, 11:45 PM
See the comments below. Apparently it is illegal to make VoIP calls in SA, so unfortunately I've had to remove my post about it.
Although I haven't personally verified this, I certainly don't want to influence people to break a law. What is really sad is that there is such a law in the first place... [:(]
15-02-2004, 02:29 AM
VoIP calls in South Africa are illegal [;)]
Hi Triune and Flashvc
I am not certain what the legislation is regarding the use of VoIP technology, but it will be truly ridiculous to deny this technology to companies and individuals. The added functionality that IP telephony brings is of great benefit to companies and one can even replace the good old PBX systems with IP PBX. The FCC (US) seems to also dabble with the issue of VoIP calls, and more about this at http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/02/12/fcc.internet.ap/index.html I hope these technologies are not withheld from South African companies.
Does anybody know exactly what the legislation is regarding the use of VoIP and related technologies?
15-02-2004, 09:23 AM
Oops, I certainly didn't know it is illegal. Are you sure?
If so, that must be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. How can it be illegal?
.--- . ... ..- ... / .-.. --- ...- . ... / -.-- --- ..-
Ro:10:9 - If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
15-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Any thing that denies Telkom and exorbitant profit is illegal in this country. [:(!]
15-02-2004, 10:45 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by caroper</i>
<br />Any thing that denies Telkom and exorbitant profit is illegal in this country. [:(!]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
How can it be illegal when they offer VoIP as part of a networking tele communacations diploma at Damelin and a few other higher education colleges.
15-02-2004, 01:58 PM
I think honest and frank discussion - as well as educational pointers towards links and data around internet telephony, is more important than slavishly worrying about or following clearly outdated, unworkable and undemocratic so-called 'laws'.
I can see why the direct linking to pirated software might cause some unnecessary problems for the Awesome Creator of MyAdsl - but the need for information about internet telephony, for forumites - is a really valuable resource.
If forumites want to allow themselves to worry about the unworkable 'laws' which various monopolies have put in place to protect themselves - then here's a simple workaround, keeping completely within the 'law'..
Go to geocities or fortunecity, and sign up and make a simple free homepage, and post the information there, and simply put an url in the forum here, directing folks to the info.
The webpage containing the information, is outside the borders of this country - sitting on a PC in the USA - therefore, there's absolutely nothing that anyone legally can do to stop it.
:) Thats my two cents worth..
"The very concept of sin comes from the bible. Christianity offers to solve a problem of its own making! Would you be thankful to a person who cut you with a knife in order to sell you a bandage?"
15-02-2004, 03:16 PM
It isn't illegal to post information about illegal activities within South Africa as we have a constitutional right to freedom of speech.
Regarding VoIP, obviously it would cause problems for a business if Telkom found out but what can they do if you're using it in a personal capacity? Quite frankly Telkom can kiss my ass, if I've paid for bandwidth I will use it how I choose.
15-02-2004, 04:00 PM
Confiscate your equipment, fine you, sue you for lost earnings, and if you persist probably jail.
It wont be a kiss that your ass will be getting.
More likely if it becomes commonplace it's Sentech they will go after. Same deal as the record companies and napster. Only in this case the government owns Telkom. So forget about fair use. If Sentech won't block VOIP they will wind up losing their license.
The right to carry voice conversations in SA is worth Hundreds of Billions a year. This is not something they will overlook if it starts becomming commonplace. And it's the governments money we are talking about here, not some company. They won't even need to bribe the government like RIAA does.
Don't get me wrong, lots of people do it now on a very small scale. But if it starts happening in any significant way they will come down on us like a ton of bricks. Very heavy, angry bricks.
15-02-2004, 04:17 PM
The fact that Telscum might come down on users like 'Very heavy, angry bricks' - is all the more reason to propogate the use of internet telephony as a viable alternative.
Just because they might get angry, or mean, or attempt to get legal on people, isnt a good enough reason to stop.
Fear is never a good reason to stop from doing what is right, even in the face of big angry heavy bricks.
Our taxes paid for the company to build itself up. Then in some kind of corrupt swindle, like an unseen chess move the company became 'privatized'.
Under what laughably passes for the Law in South Africa, methinks that Telcom would have to try and change legislation, in order to block or act against Sentech or its users..
As I said in the other 'phone' thread, they're more likely to bluff and bluster their way by expensive ad campaigns and the odd test legal case against individuals.. tough.. short of forcing Sentech to install forensic tools to check for voice data transmissions on their pipe, there's nothing Telscum can do..
I'm a hunting for good net telephony software, and will post info as I get anything useful..
Oh yeah, the nice thing about bricks - even heavy angry ones, is that in just a little bit of water - they sink :P
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
15-02-2004, 04:35 PM
You can't block VoIP unless you cut off access totally. Like all other tcp/ip communication VoIP can be encrypted and sent via any port you wish, it would be impossible for Sentech (or anyone) to monitor it. I personally feel nothing for a law which exists purely to protect Telkom's profits.
Telkom cannot take everyone to court now can they. Im not advocating people to do illegal stuff, but telkom could do with a bit of shafting.
I sent Telkom a complaint over a month ago. Im still waiting for even acknowledgement for the complaint. They simply have chosen to ignore my complaint. Another business dedicated to public service would of replied even if just acknowleging a receipt within a day.
In my complaint I predicted to them that Telkom is going to take a fall to a wireless solution. I didnt mean Sentech or My Wireless. I meant a technology that might still be invented or is invented, but a technology that will revolutionise the way we communicate. And I dont even mean the internet. The internet might form part of this technology. But when the East start producing this new invention, Telkom as we know it will be doomed. The customers that they chose to ignore will abandon them in droves.
Dont get me wrong as I do not wish to predict the future, but as humankind put a man on the moon, so will communication between each other take the next big step forward. I just dont know when this will happen. But it will be soon.
<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">
15-02-2004, 04:45 PM
I noticed, purely by ahem accident, that there are a lot of Net Telephones out there which seem to allow not only the standard PC-to-fone method, but the free method of PC-to-PC..
all you need is granny or grandpa's IP address in Australia or the USA, then put it into the software, and you call call them and chatter via the net for free..
Most of the internet telephony companies understandably want some money - and usually want you to pay for the equiv of 'phone cards' for metered units - but the ultimate freebie route appears to be those Net Phones which work on IP-to-IP..
Take a look - its one of many types - http://www.pc-telephone.com/
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
15-02-2004, 05:37 PM
Oh I'm not against people using VOIP. I have been known to use it myself on occasion.
But why do I get the feeling that Telkom would love you to use it as well. I can see it now ....
Telkom : Dear Sentech It has come to our attention that you are using your license to carry voice communications. Please desist immediatly.
Sentech : We can't control what our clients use the Internet for.
Telkom : Satra, please note that Sentech is in violation of their license.
Satra : Cheers Sentech. Nice knowing you. Please shut down.
You think this is paranoid??
Go read your Napster history and remember that RIAA wasn't owned by the government.
IF VOIP on Sentech becomes commonplace, Sentech WILL BE SHUT DOWN.
I guarantee it. For Chrissake, think about it. There is NO WAY the govt will allow Sentech to bypass telkom and their monopoly on voice telecoms.
If it stays small we will get away with it. If it giets big, forget it.
Oh and you can talk about VOIP, how to do it, where to get stuff all you want. You can even out it on your Telkomsa free web space. Nothing illegal about that.
You just can't do it.
15-02-2004, 06:35 PM
This wouldn't happen as both Telkom and Sentech have absolutely no idea how much VoIP traffic is going over their networks. Telkom would need to prove without a doubt that significant VoIP communication is taking place and that Sentech are condoning it. Along with this Telkom would need to prove a method exists to block VoIP else Sentech cannot possibly be held responsible for their users actions.
If you read current events with regard to P2P networks, more specifically Kazaa, you will note that courts are starting to rule in favour of the networks i.e. the networks are not responsible for the actions of their users. The RIAA is having a much harder time obtaining user info from ISP's and their tactics are actually hurting rather than helping the music industry.
Anyway I'll still use VoIP [;)]
15-02-2004, 09:10 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">IF VOIP on Sentech becomes commonplace, Sentech WILL BE SHUT DOWN.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Not if they have a license [;)]
15-02-2004, 09:44 PM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Punk</i>
<br />How can it be illegal when they offer VoIP as part of a networking tele communacations diploma at Damelin and a few other higher education colleges.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
And you can go learn how to kill people too. Besides, alot of people use VoIP for intercompany coms.
<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."
15-02-2004, 10:08 PM
Yes, I also agree that any law against VoIP is totally stupid, and utterly impossible to enforce as data can be encrypted, and even if it isn't, how will you know it is voice without listening in? And that is a pretty serious violation of privacy.
I don't think posting any info about VoIP carries any real risk, but personally, I cannot encourage anyone to break a law, even if I think it is an utterly brainless one. After all, each of us must make our own choices, and then be willing to accept the consequences. Of course that is true for most things in life, and even after. [:D]
.--- . ... ..- ... / .-.. --- ...- . ... / -.-- --- ..-
"Would you be thankful to a person who cut you with a knife in order to sell you a bandage?" Yep, if the cut was made to remove something that was killing me, and the bandage was absolutely free...
15-02-2004, 10:36 PM
I have used voip over the the cellular network (cellphone to cellphone) - gprs bearer layer [;)]
Also known as Push To Talk (PTT).
15-02-2004, 11:04 PM
it's def. a stupid law. I would say use it if you want. There's like a 1% chance anyone will know. If some1 does find out just act like you never knew.
I would'nt of known it's illegal if it wasn't for these forums. About 2 years ago I used it for like a year.
It's a stupid law, just like the stupid where you can't communicate with some1 over a public road. But seriously do you think the authorities care wat one home user and his neighbours do?
..- dot dot dash ;)
16-02-2004, 12:02 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ProAsm</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">IF VOIP on Sentech becomes commonplace, Sentech WILL BE SHUT DOWN.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Not if they have a license [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Are they gonna get one?
A clear conscience is a sign of bad memory!
16-02-2004, 07:37 AM
Given Sentech's position in business, I'm pretty sure they have all the necessary licenses to operate - in which case its Telscum who'll have to use bribery and pressure behind the scenes, on their pawns in Government in order to change legislation to move the goal posts and make Sentech appear to be operating 'illegally' - or make them install forensic tools to block voice data.. Dont think it'll get to that though..
I think Telcom is only in power because AT&T or Ma Bell or others, havent moved in here yet. The instant a genuine operator moves in and sets up shop, even renting parts of infrastructure off Telscum - Telscum will start to fall apart..
Depending on who you're with in the US, you can get a new phone installed on the same day you apply - rental for around $15-$25 a month, local calls free, you only pay for long distance.. First company locally to offer that, puts Telscum on the scrapheap of history, even if Telscum 'rents' the lines to the new company..
"In 1980, only 19 per cent of the adult population belonged to a church, mosque, synagogue or temple. By 1990 the figure had fallen to 17.5 per cent and in 1999 only 7 per cent of British people were attending a weekly religious service."
Why be a minority? Atheism is the Answer :)
17-02-2004, 04:23 PM
Some thoughts on VoIP:
Voice is far more latency sensitive than bandwidth sensitive
If you can get 150ms roundtrip latency then you're good to go with voice
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a voice packet. Therefore end-to-end QoS cannot be guarantted. Not good for business voice, but not a problem for chatting to your granny in Mongolia.
Sentech have a "multimedia" license. This may or may not include voice (it's cool if you send an image with the voice as that becomes multimedia and you're OK)
On a more philosophical level. When is voice actually voice? Use the kiddie pr0n analogy. Is it kiddie porn when it traverses the ISP or sits on the ISP mail server? Is it kiddie porn if you receive the mail and delete it but don't empty your trash? If any of these are "yes" then half the ISP's in the world are breaking the law.
Previous posters are correct, there is no way to accurately detect VoIP and the law in this country is shaky on the topic. The regulation states that no ISP may "permit" VoIP to be carried on their network. Legally, "permit" implies knowledge and some mannet of gaining that knowlede.
So, what if you do make a phone call using your MyWi setup? Sentech are cool as they can't knowit's voice, so they will win the court case.
You aren't contravening the law as you're not an ISP or VAN licencess to which the ICASE regulations apply, so you're pretty much OK too.
I for one, will be running my IP softphone over the VPN back into the office for my late night conference calls, etc.
It's a very grey legal area that a lot of local ISP's & VAN's are tippy-toeing around at the moment and we can expect some ammendments to the legislation in the near future.
It would be easier to police the no smoking laws that the no VoIP laws in this country!
I posted an article in the news section regarding the legality of VoIP. It is legal in certain circumstances, but not all. It is well worth a read, but the basic guidelines are:
"VOIP is not a new concept, and indeed IP telephony has been permitted for some time, as long as an organisation uses its own networks to carry voice traffic. "This scenario is legal so long as the traffic originates in the Telkom network, enters the private network and terminates in the private network. However, if the traffic originates in Telkom's network, enters a private network and is carried over that private network to terminate once again in Telkom's network, a crime known as 'break-out' has been committed,"
18-02-2004, 11:17 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rpm</i>
<br /> "This scenario is legal so long as the traffic originates in the Telkom network, enters the private network and terminates in the private network. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'm quite happy with that statement. What it does not cover is that if the call originates on the private netwrok, and terminates on the private network.
If I establish a VPN connection over the 'net back to the office, am I then considered to be "on a private network" that's what VPN stands for after all.
The problem with VoIP calls on the 'net is that the ISP becomes a carries of voice and thus contavenes the VAN/ISP license agreement.
18-02-2004, 11:32 AM
It could be argued that Skype is a vpn -- it's p2p and although it's dynamically routed it's encrypted - much like pptp vpns -- so it's in no way public -- the only thing that's public about it is the software that facilitates it. - anyway any law that restricts what you can / cannot do with your bandwidth within the realm of comms and data is patently ludicrous.(execpting the obvious malicious hacking/cracking/sabotage etc..)
18-02-2004, 12:14 PM
A question about this, I never understood this acronym voip.
Does this mean voice communications through let's say msn is illegal ?
Or how does this work ?
(Sorry for my incompetence about this)
18-02-2004, 11:05 PM
It stands for Voice over Internet Protocol.
Basically it means converting voice into a data stream and sending it over a network. To answer your question, yes voice communication through msn is illegal if you're using it in South Africa (given our stupid laws).
23-02-2004, 08:48 PM
Just as a side, I have been doing Voice over IP calls for like 7 years, and I get better quality international calls on my ol modem than I do on adsl...
Thanks to someone (guess who) de-prioritising certain internet traffic at their own discression.
As they say in the classics TIA..(This is Africa)
my 2c :)
24-02-2004, 06:24 PM
The irony of this topic is that the technology used for myWirless is 3G cellphone technology which was designed as well to carry voice. In the UK their is already 3G operators selling 3G phones and I am told that their are also 3G operators in OZ. At present the 3G netwokrs in the UK are used primarly for voice and secondary for data.
Check out this link:
24-02-2004, 11:03 PM
Try www.skype.com for free VOIP. Really works. I know of companies in Europe that have switched to Skype because int. calls were killing them. Also know of private users in USA who use it all the time and it is very good. Know local peoople here who say quality is great when calling USA etc but for local calls voice quality not so hot.
25-02-2004, 04:51 PM
There is a two intristing paragraphs on the page:
1)"These regulations, drafted more than six years ago, prevent the
carriage of any traffic - voice or data - outside Telkom's network,
when that traffic originates in Telkom' s network."
2) "VOIP is not a new concept, and indeed IP telephony has been
permitted for some time, as long as an organisation uses its own
networks to carry voice traffic."
Whould't that mean that if Sentech uses there own network , and you dant make a VOIP call to any ane in SA it will be legal ?
I dont realy know what the law states just sounded intresting.