Looking to get into . . . astrophotography [Archive]

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 03:00 PM

Currently using a Skywatcher 8" Newtonian, with a older 2" refractor as a guide scope, on an E5 equatorial mount. Only digital astro I've taken though so far is with a webcam that I modified. Getting Decent Film is also a problem in SA, So I haven't done any work in a while.

My Wife is actually the big on into Astronomy though :( She is the treasurer for ASSA-JHB. I just love taking photo's when she gives me a chance.

EDIT: Oh as to what ya need.. A camera, and a Telescope :) The set up can get really pricey though. If your doing digital you more than likely have to modify your DSLR as most DSLR wont pick up the "Red Alpha spectrum" of light, and then you need all sorts of Adaptors and motor drives to make sure the Telescope tracks right, or all you'll get is blurry images (at least with film) What a lot of people do now days though is take short exposures and take ALOT OF THEM. Then they use programs to stack the images together.

marine1

21-07-2008, 03:16 PM

Thanks for the info.

mercurial

21-07-2008, 03:19 PM

I would love to do astrophotography :(:( What do I need ?

A telescope and a SLR :)
All you need to do is to attach the SLR to the telescope.

I have a 12" Flex Dobsonian. I'm in the process of getting some filters so that I can have a look at nebulas.

http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-305mm-12-f1500-parabolic-trusstube-dobsonian-p-873.html

Edit: Do you attach your refractor in place of the finderscope?

marine1

21-07-2008, 03:20 PM

How much would a Telescope cost for this?

mercurial

21-07-2008, 03:28 PM

How much would a Telescope cost for this?

There are a number of different telecopes that you can get. The most affordable ones are the Dobsonians. You can check them out at www.skywatcher.com or shop.technopro.co.za (shop.technopro.co.za). Refractors are betting for viewing planets but they are flippin' expensive. Cassegrains are even more expensive. You basically get three different kinds of telescopes - Newtonian reflectors(uses mirrors to reflect light to eyepiece. eg: Dobsonian telescope); refractors uses powerful lenses; Catadioptric(Cassegrains) uses both reflectors and refractors to deliver stunning, sharp images. I have, however, heard from people that refractors are much, much better for viewing planets.

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 08:05 PM

http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-305mm-12-f1500-parabolic-trusstube-dobsonian-p-873.html

Edit: Do you attach your refractor in place of the finderscope?I have this one from skywatcher http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=64&class1=1&class2=104

I know the guys at technipro quiet well, so I can let you know though, that they have also just got the agency for skywatcher SA so watch that space fro some really good deals to come soon. The SkyWatcher mirrors are all basically made by Synta, who also make all the Mead and Orion mirrors. So its really good to do some good research before you buy, as you might get the exact same scope for half the price just by changing brand. (Some parts are worse though.. Like I've replaced my original focuser with a GSO 2" dual speed crayford focuser)

With regard to the refractor.. I have it strapped on top my scope along with the finderscope. I have a Laser illuminated EP which throws cross hairs into the FOW, Because I shot on film, my tracking has to be very very accurate. So I use the old refractor to monitor the scope while its tracking, and manually adjust it, as and when is needed to make sure my drives dont skip up. Nothing worse than doing a 2 hour exposure to find your had slip on a drive :eek:

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 08:32 PM

Oh and if you guys want.. I did a PDF document the other day where I stripped a cheap logitech Webcam and photographed the whole thing showing how to convert it to be used as a direct EP on a Telescope.

Works really great for getting into astrophotography quickly and allowing everyone to see whats going on around a laptop.

Oh and for some really great Film Astrophotgraphy website check this out http://www.petesastrophotography.com/ This guy is really good and actually in SA right now. Still trying to get him to do a lecture for everyone. He has some great info on how guidescopes work and he also uses and old OM1 for all his photo's. This one is really nice.. but a standard DSLR wont be able to pick up that red colour

http://www.petesastrophotography.com/gallery/Horsehead/Horsehead-LG.jpg

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 08:47 PM

I have, however, heard from people that refractors are much, much better for viewing planets.All depends on your lenses to be honest. I've seen some really decent telescopes with crappy lenses and and dob kicks thier but.

If you guys are really interested though, I could try organise a viewing evening at the JHB observatory to go and have a look through the 26" Telescope refractor, Its one of the oldest of its kinda and you have to go up a lift to get to the EP to see which in its own its pretyy cool. ASSA-JHB usually have meetings every 2nd wednesday of the month and if you all ask nice enough.. I can try get them to open up the scope for a MYADSL viewing:)

iDenTiTy

21-07-2008, 08:52 PM

All depends on your lenses to be honest. I've seen some really decent telescopes with crappy lenses and and dob kicks thier but.

If you guys are really interested though, I could try organise a viewing evening at the JHB observatory to go and have a look through the 26" Telescope refractor, Its one of the oldest of its kinda and you have to go up a lift to get to the EP to see which in its own its pretyy cool. ASSA-JHB usually have meetings every 2nd wednesday of the month and if you all ask nice enough.. I can try get them to open up the scope for a MYADSL viewing:)

:eek:

Legend...

I haven't been to an observatory since I was 10 !!!!!

Would be cool.

Can any camera fit a telescope?

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 08:56 PM

There's no rule that you have to get the super-duper quality lenses - there are plenty of less expensive ones that are of good quality.

Ask yourself - do you want to take the picture or do you want your camera to take it? If you dont think you want to get into the fiddly aspect of it then there are some more decent point and shoots available.Couldn't agree more. Remember the thing with the SLR is you view through the lens.. So you get to see the image you want to take. Not a computer generated on on an LCD.

It might seem complicated but its really easy to pic up. Its how you have basically been taken photo's your whole life really if you ever used a film camera. The nice thing about SLR's is that you have the choice. You can get a standard lens that can do everything, but if you want to take something special, you only have to use / buy a new lens instead of a whole new camera.

I use a "Normal" Digital for all my underwater photography, but SLR for anything else... But even Normal can give you some great shots underwater, and saves me having to make sure the shots are great. Yes 100's of them come out duds.. but Its just more fun than having to battle underwater. If I ever enter a comp underwater.. I'll go SLR though

Kalvaer

21-07-2008, 09:08 PM

:eek:

Legend...

I haven't been to an observatory since I was 10 !!!!!

Would be cool.

Can any camera fit a telescope?Yeah.. you can even use your cell phone. For astro through a telescope you get 3 basic kinds, Piggy Back, Prime Focus, Afocal

Piggy back you just strap the camera on to the back of the telescope, and take photo's you would see by eye. Its the same as using a tripod.. but usually you use the telescope to track the movement. The nice thing about this, is the camera picks up light, your eye normally cant.

Afocal is pretty much juse holding the camera to the eyepiece. Cheap and nasty, as its just holding the camera to the lens. Some people make up brackets to hold the camera in place. Here is a photo on FB taken with a Cellphone :gasp: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=148905&id=586356466

Lastly is Prime Focus and is the expensive part due to the other things you need. Basically here though, you dont have a lens on the camera. The telescope becomes your lens. So it is now a HUGE MOFO magni - lens. But its not easy to get focus. You generally always need an SLR for this and then adaptors to get all your camera to be part of the Telescope can be price. It gots me US$600 to import adaptors for my camera.... And Now I hardly used them. But when I do... The ou come is incredible. Its like have a MASSIVE zoom lens as the telescope is now your lens and the image from the telescope is captured directly on your film plane

marine1

21-07-2008, 09:26 PM

All depends on your lenses to be honest. I've seen some really decent telescopes with crappy lenses and and dob kicks thier but.

If you guys are really interested though, I could try organise a viewing evening at the JHB observatory to go and have a look through the 26" Telescope refractor, Its one of the oldest of its kinda and you have to go up a lift to get to the EP to see which in its own its pretyy cool. ASSA-JHB usually have meetings every 2nd wednesday of the month and if you all ask nice enough.. I can try get them to open up the scope for a MYADSL viewing:)

Dude who do I have to pay?????
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ

iDenTiTy

21-07-2008, 09:33 PM

How much do I pay?

:)

marine1

21-07-2008, 09:35 PM

That would be awesome. I love looking at the stars, the planets...wish I could get a high powered scope to fit my Alpha. :(

ldmelsa

22-07-2008, 12:08 AM

Cool stuff.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 07:45 AM

Great stuff Kalvaer. The focal length of my scope is 1500mm. Imagine the views I could get with it :) I can't wait to give it a try. You're very clued up about this and I'll be happy to learn a few tricks from you. Do you have a preference whether to use CCD or CMOS SLR cameras for astrophotography? It's one thing I've been trying to establish. Also, I wanna get a few Lumicon filters for seeking out nebulas. Any advice? I'm looking at the Oxygen III filter, the Deep Sky filter as well as the Ultra High Contrast filter. It's a pity I'm in Cape Town. I so badly wanna have a look through that 26" refractor :eek:

marine1

22-07-2008, 07:53 AM

Kalvaer, thanks for the offer I would love to go and see it. Also can you maybe advise me on how to proceed with Astro photography? I have a Sony alpha A700

mercurial

22-07-2008, 08:07 AM

Kalvaer, thanks for the offer I would love to go and see it. Also can you maybe advise me on how to proceed with Astro photography? I have a Sony alpha A700

That's a bloody nice cam! A Dobsonian would be cheaper to get. You can get an 8" for about R3000-ish. Then all you need is a camera adaptor and it costs about R200. You remove the lens from your SLR, you remove any eyepieces from the telescope, you attach the adaptor to the SLR and the SLR to the telescope and you're all set to go. You will need to get familiar with constellations, otherwise you won't know how to find the stars/planets/nebulas. There are many links you can have a look at.
www.http://www.astronomyforbeginners.com/astronomy/
www.skyandtelescope.com
www.skymaps.com

bwana

22-07-2008, 08:48 AM

marine1

22-07-2008, 08:51 AM

Thanks Mercurial, where would I get these Dobsonian machines?

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:11 AM

Given the state of sensors today why would one be better suited for astrophotography than the other?

CCDs are the preferred, general choice when it comes to astrophotography. They actually have specific cameras designed for astrophotography and they are CCDs. Nowadays we have SLRs too and they are also good, but there are reasons why people would prefer CCDs to SLR. One of them is that the sensor has cooling, which is something that the SLRs don't have and the SLRs tend to get hot and produce lots of noise after prolonged exposure. It's 6 of the 1, half a dozen of the other kind of thing really. I guess both can be used if you know how to work around their downsides. Eg: The noise that SLRs produce can be negated with software manipulation.

http://shop.technopro.co.za/astrophotography-c-15.html?zenid=kh1om58lophb9ulon1ed9kljk2

Thanks Mercurial, where would I get these Dobsonian machines?

The latest brand is SkyWatcher. They now produce Celestron and Orion telescopes, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not too sure about it so I speak under correction.

General list of SkyWatcher telescopes by category (http://shop.technopro.co.za/shop-by-brand-skywatcher-telescopes-c-7_85_151.html).

Direct link for Dobsonians (http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-telescopes-dobsonians-c-7_85_151_153.html).

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:15 AM

Merc thanks for the great info. Which one would you recommend? Sorry very new to this. I would lie to see some aliens in another dimension :D

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:19 AM

@bwana:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/D30A4.HTM

http://www.flickr.com/groups/25191652@N00/discuss/72157604513803767/

http://forum.skyatnightmagazine.com/tm.asp?m=144

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:24 AM

Merc thanks for the great info. Which one would you recommend? Sorry very new to this. I would lie to see some aliens in another dimension :D

The bigger the better :D Size does matter :p When it comes to telescopes, size in terms of aperture does matter. The more light the telescope receives, the better. I have a 12" Dobsonian but it's gawd damn heavy. An 8" I think is sufficient for someone starting out in astronomy, but if you can afford a bigger scope, I would definitely go for it. Anything from an 8" upwards will be sufficient. I'd rather go for a 10" as it is not much more than the 8" in terms of price. The 12" is a bit expensive.

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:25 AM

Thanks man'

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:26 AM

Sky-Watcher 254mm (10") F/1200 Parabolic Truss-Tube Dobsonian
Any good?

bwana

22-07-2008, 09:28 AM

@bwana:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D30/D30A4.HTM

http://www.flickr.com/groups/25191652@N00/discuss/72157604513803767/

http://forum.skyatnightmagazine.com/tm.asp?m=144Interesting - according to those one doesnt seem to have a real advantage over the other for astrophotography. Both seem to be in need of cooling - do you find that in any dSLRs?

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:28 AM

Thanks man'

No probs. These telescopes are a bit big but they give great value.

Sky-Watcher 254mm (10") F/1200 Parabolic Truss-Tube Dobsonian
Any good?

Yeah, I have the 12". It's nice cos it is a collapsible one. Meaning when you're not using it, you can "fold it down" so that it takes up less vertical space. I have been thinking about whether the open tube allows the wind/air to influence the reflection of light though. If it is the case, you could always place a blanket over the open area.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:32 AM

Interesting - according to those one doesnt seem to have a real advantage over the other for astrophotography. Both seem to be in need of cooling - do you find that in any dSLRs?

From what I've read, the CCD sensor has cooling, which makes it better for long exposures. Other than that, it has nothing on the SLR. According to what I've read, the SLRs gets hot cos it does not have any cooling, which means the longer it's exposed, the more noise it produces. I'm not sure which I'd go with, but I'm sure there's a reason why dedicated astrophotography equipment are CCDs. Do the CCDs not perform better in low-light?

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Damn i would have thought my A700 would have had a ccd but it has a cmos :(

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:40 AM

Damn i would have thought my A700 would have had a ccd but it has a cmos :(

That is rather strange. Most of the other Alpha cameras are CCD, but I see that yours is indeed CMOS. It's no biggie. You can fix up the noise with Photoshop CS3 :)

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:44 AM

You should probably also get a programme called Registax. When taking photos of the universe, it's better to take multiple pics, say 50 for example, and then the software stacks all the images and it gives a much better image. You would need to take the pics immediately after the other - leaving you finger on the capture button until all 50 are taken. Can't remember what it's called now.

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:44 AM

For its first 'advanced amateur' model Sony has dropped the CCD used in the A100 and moved to a totally new 12MP CMOS sensor. Designed to offer low noise and high speed (thanks to its on-chip A/D conversion) the 'Exmor' sensor puts the A700 in direct competition with Nikon's new D300.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:46 AM

Benefits of Registax http://www.flickr.com/photos/tbird0322/2413843280/

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:46 AM

marine1

22-07-2008, 09:47 AM

:D:D

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:48 AM

Astrophotography groups on Flickr:

www.flickr.com/groups/58792828@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/58995763@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/83376903@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/25191652@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/60696589@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/39432136@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/98098255@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/380345@N24/
www.flickr.com/groups/47874014@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/13296187@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/37481790@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/89594630@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/81392442@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/98509261@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/52675643@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/34175727@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/91656356@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/99769163@N00/
www.flickr.com/groups/96297370@N00/

mercurial

22-07-2008, 09:50 AM

You can get Registax here -> http://www.astronomie.be/registax/html/download_v4.html

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 10:52 AM

Given the state of sensors today why would one be better suited for astrophotography than the other?A lot of the light given off from stars and nubula fall under the red alpha range. CCD's are better at detecting it as far as I know. Red Alpha is not really a problem when taking day time photo's. So most camera's you buy, dont bother with it. Which is why if you want to take decent Astro photo's, you actually have to mod your camera to allow it to work 100%. I could however be very wrong with that and how the CMOS work.

Then there is also the major problem of cooling as mentioned. The top Astro Cams are made by a company called SBIG. The are basically CCD's with huge cooling systems built into them.

You should probably also get a programme called Registax. When taking photos of the universe, it's better to take multiple pics, say 50 for example, and then the software stacks all the images and it gives a much better image. You would need to take the pics immediately after the other - leaving you finger on the capture button until all 50 are taken. Can't remember what it's called now. Thats where I usually argue with Digital astrophotographers :) I think its cheating when you stack.. I've seen guys who stack images over a whole year :eek: yes the results are STUNNING but still not "real", But when they then claim a 15 hour exposure.. I call BS :D

I will admit though I am being pulled over to the dark side. And as soon as I can afford a decent Digital, I'll be moving over that way.

Here is a link to a PDF I made some time ago about how to mod a web cam to work on your telescope if anyone is interested: http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/LogitechQuickcamPro4000Conversion.pdf.

As for the rest. I'll chat to my wife and find out when the next open evening will be and I'll let you all know if you are really interested. For those who want to find out more check out this page as well http://www.assajhb.co.za/ I'll also tryand ask some of the top photographers if then can do another "Beginners course in Astro Photography" if there are a few people who want to go

mercurial

22-07-2008, 10:58 AM

Thats where I usually argue with Digital astrophotographers :) I think its cheating when you stack.. I've seen guys who stack images over a whole year :eek: yes the results are STUNNING but still not "real", But when they then claim a 15 hour exposure.. I call BS :D

I will admit though I am being pulled over to the dark side. And as soon as I can afford a decent Digital, I'll be moving over that way.

Here is a link to a PDF I made some time ago about how to mod a web cam to work on your telescope if anyone is interested: http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/LogitechQuickcamPro4000Conversion.pdf.

As for the rest. I'll chat to my wife and find out when the next open evening will be and I'll let you all know if you are really interested. For those who want to find out more check out this page as well http://www.assajhb.co.za/ I'll also tryand ask some of the top photographers if then can do another "Beginners course in Astro Photography" if there are a few people who want to go

Lol I agree. Thanks. Did you see my message about the filters? Would like your input.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1920771&postcount=19

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 10:58 AM

Oh and another really helpful site with some really great people for helping out is http://www.cloudynights.com I did almost all my research by asking them questions and they are always helpful.

Back to this though:
Given the state of sensors today why would one be better suited for astrophotography than the other? I just found two other links with more data explaining it into much more detail than I did:
http://forums.popphoto.com/camera/board/message?board.id=9&thread.id=66950
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/453522/page/2/view/collapsed/sb/7/o/all/fpart/1

mercurial

22-07-2008, 11:01 AM

Aah I totally forgot about cloudynights. I also use www.skyandtelescope.com as well as www.skymaps.com, but I actually have the starwheel for this year so I don't really use skymaps.com.

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 11:14 AM

Lol I agree. Thanks. Did you see my message about the filters? Would like your input.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1920771&postcount=19Depends on where the Nebula is that your trying to look at, whats around it and your current sky conditions. http://www.lumicon.com/filterspec.php has a very nice breakdown for photography.

http://www.stellarium.org/ is also a very nice open source piece of software. I usually have it out with me on my lap top when I want to find something. Then another program I use is called Cartes du Ciel. Its not as user friendly as Stellarium, but it has a lot more data for finding those Deep sky objects that are a bit tricky to spot.

Lastly, A book I would recommend for everyone in SA is the South African 2008 skyguide. http://www.saao.ac.za/assa/html/skyguide2008.html

OH...If you also buy any of the more well known star charts that are produced by companies in the USA like sky and telescope.. A friendly tip... Turn the book UPSIDE DOWN! I spent 3 hours one night trying to use it to find the M104 (The Sombrero Galaxy (http://terpsichore.stsci.edu/~summers/viz/hgast/hgast_imax_sombrero_galaxy_0510_1404x1024.jpg)) and only when I was packing up did I remember.. everything was inverted.. Found it 3 min later after that :o

marine1

22-07-2008, 11:18 AM

Will we be able to see the eclipse in SA?

bwana

22-07-2008, 11:20 AM

Back to this though: I just found two other links with more data explaining it into much more detail than I did:
http://forums.popphoto.com/camera/board/message?board.id=9&thread.id=66950
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/453522/page/2/view/collapsed/sb/7/o/all/fpart/1Thanks for those - pity the discussions are also 3+ years old - I wonder how much has changed since then.

Is cooling even available in dSLRs? If not then I cant see how either has an advantage in that area as, from what I've read today, both benefit from it.

marine1

22-07-2008, 11:23 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2008_lunar_eclipse

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 11:28 AM

Thanks for those - pity the discussions are also 3+ years old - I wonder how much has changed since then.

Is cooling even available in dSLRs? If not then I cant see how either has an advantage in that area as, from what I've read today, both benefit from it.Depends on the Camera I think. If you buy one specfically for Astro, then yes. I"m sure CMOS have come a long way and could very well be just as good. All I do know is if I ever have enough money to waste on an Astro Camera, it will be one of these ( http://www.sbig.com/sbwhtmls/online.htm ).. and they are all CCD and all of the top astronomers in the world swear by them

mercurial

22-07-2008, 11:30 AM

Depends on where the Nebula is that your trying to look at, whats around it and your current sky conditions. http://www.lumicon.com/filterspec.php has a very nice breakdown for photography.

http://www.stellarium.org/ is also a very nice open source piece of software. I usually have it out with me on my lap top when I want to find something. Then another program I use is called Cartes du Ciel. Its not as user friendly as Stellarium, but it has a lot more data for finding those Deep sky objects that are a bit tricky to spot.

Lastly, A book I would recommend for everyone in SA is the South African 2008 skyguide. http://www.saao.ac.za/assa/html/skyguide2008.html

OH...If you also buy any of the more well known star charts that are produced by companies in the USA like sky and telescope.. A friendly tip... Turn the book UPSIDE DOWN! I spent 3 hours one night trying to use it to find the M104 (The Sombrero Galaxy (http://terpsichore.stsci.edu/~summers/viz/hgast/hgast_imax_sombrero_galaxy_0510_1404x1024.jpg)) and only when I was packing up did I remember.. everything was inverted.. Found it 3 min later after that :o

Thanks, I already have those links ;)

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 11:31 AM

Will we be able to see the eclipse in SA?

http://www.assajhb.co.za/ first article on their page

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 11:45 AM

Thanks, I already have those links ;) :D Well then what filters do you already have? If you dont have any, I'd suggest getting something like this http://shop.technopro.co.za/orion-deluxe-stargazers-filter-set-125-p-557.html Then use that as a guild as to what you want to actually spend the big money on from what works for you. I would hate to give advice on something that costly and then it doesn't work for you

And just thought about something. The reason this whole thread ended up spawning into existance... "What do you need for Astro-Photography". I was half wrong.. You dont need a Telescope. It makes it easier for seeing those really far away objects, but you can still use a camera to get images of things you wouldn't see with the naked eye.. So all you really need.. is a "Steady Tripod."

This is a photo I took in Jan without a telescope with a sony digital camera held up on a wall. You can already see how the nebula in Orion is showing up, but you'll never see it with your eye. http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/Orion.jpg

mercurial

22-07-2008, 11:59 AM

I don't have any filters - I said I already have those links :)
I researched and discovered that Lumicon has the best filters. Thanks for all the other astronomy/astrophotography links though. They are spectacular :)

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 12:09 PM

Then Best to buy a cheap kit of all of them. Thats what I did :) I bought the Celestron kit at Scopex last year and I still use all of those. Dont have enough money to afford the Lumicon ones :(

mercurial

22-07-2008, 12:39 PM

Then Best to buy a cheap kit of all of them. Thats what I did :) I bought the Celestron kit at Scopex last year and I still use all of those. Dont have enough money to afford the Lumicon ones :(

They are quite expensive but they are good. I spoke to a guy who's been in astronomy for 20 years and he said it's a really good buy. How much can you actually see with your filters?
I check technopro's filters everyday but they don't have what I'm looking for :(

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 12:43 PM

They are quite expensive but they are good. I spoke to a guy who's been in astronomy for 20 years and he said it's a really good buy. How much can you actually see with your filters?
I check technopro's filters everyday but they don't have what I'm looking for :(
Depends on what your looking for. Certain of them bring out the ice caps on mars that you cant normally see, others change the colours of the bands on Jupiter so you can actually see "texture". I actually did a test on Cloudy nights one day... I'll try find the post quickly (with regards to a simular question) :D

What are you looking for from Technipro? I can "try" ask Kobie to bring it in for you if you want?

mercurial

22-07-2008, 01:02 PM

That will be awesome. I'm looking for the following nebular filters for now. The colour filters for viewing planets I will purchase at a later stage. Anyway, here are the filters:

Lumicon Deep Sky Filter 1.25" (http://www.lumicon.com/telescope-accessories.php?iid=LF3010&cid=13&in=Filter+Deep+Sky+1.25in&hn=)

Lumicon Oxygen III Filter 1.25" (http://www.lumicon.com/telescope-accessories.php?iid=LF3040&cid=15&in=Filter+Oxygen+III+1.25in&hn=)

Lumicon Ultra High Contrast 1.25" (http://www.lumicon.com/telescope-accessories.php?iid=LF3025&cid=14&in=Filter+Ultra+High+Contrast+1.25in&hn=)

Single Polarizer 1.25" (http://www.lumicon.com/telescope-accessories.php?iid=LF1110&cid=21&in=Single+Polarizer+1.25in&hn=)

Altogether, they cost $330, which is approximately R2500-ish.

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 01:06 PM

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=low&Number=1582997&Forum=f86&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=1582997&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=22806&daterange=1&newerval=3&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post1582997

Those were done last year while I was testing the filters. You can see what it does while using them all on the moon. The catch comes in with the editing afterwards and you see how much detail some of the guys got out of them

mercurial

22-07-2008, 01:13 PM

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 01:22 PM

mercurial

22-07-2008, 01:28 PM

LOL Ayup :) Problem is they are all 1.25" My current setup requires 2" for photograpy. So I am saving up for a really nice 2" Deepsky filter and also a Night-Sky Hydrogen-Alpha Filter.

But with my med bills and things now.. its going to be a while still :(

But you can see from the post above how they can change things. Even though the photo with the green filter looked all.. well green.. LOL once it was processed, it brought out stunning detail of the crators on the moon

2" are sweet. Hydrogen filter? Someone's looking for the horsehead :D Or is it the California one :p
The reason I want all 3 filters is because some of them can't be used for astrophotography.
Yeah those filters do allow us to see much more. For the time being, I just wanna get those 3 main filters.

marine1

22-07-2008, 01:35 PM

mercurial

22-07-2008, 01:40 PM

Guys, maybe a stupid question but are there any telescopes that one could get that actually could show the surface of the moon up close? I mean all these pics are great but you cant actually see the surface up close

It's all in the eyepieces. If you want a very close up image of the moon, you can use a 10mm or a 5mm eyepiece. The smaller (5mm) will let you zoom even further. I do this all the time. It's amazing how much detail you can see. You can see all the cracks/craters close up as if the moon is a fingertip away :) The moon is literally in your face :) Your 10" will do it perfectly, as would most scopes.

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 02:04 PM

2" are sweet. Hydrogen filter? Someone's looking for the horsehead.LOL, How did you guess :) Just costly moving everything over to 2"

Guys, maybe a stupid question but are there any telescopes that one could get that actually could show the surface of the moon up close? I mean all these pics are great but you cant actually see the surface up closeYou can get up VERY close.. What a lot of people dont realise though as well is that the moon is very bright when looked at through a telescope, so taking photo's that close is even harder is its usually just one white ball. I'll try sneak out tonight though and see what I can come up with for you with a webcam

Found these on my work PC

This photo was taken at new moon with a 8mm EP and a Cell phone, is a bit off axis, But will give you an idea of how close you can get.
http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/Moon.jpg

This one was taken with a web cam, about a 25mm EP

http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/Moon2.jpg

mercurial

22-07-2008, 02:32 PM

LOL, How did you guess :) Just costly moving everything over to 2"

Secret :D

I'm gonna research on some other filters as well. I have my heart set on these Lumicons but I don't have a credit card to buy them from websites :(

marine1

22-07-2008, 02:42 PM

It's all in the eyepieces. If you want a very close up image of the moon, you can use a 10mm or a 5mm eyepiece. The smaller (5mm) will let you zoom even further. I do this all the time. It's amazing how much detail you can see. You can see all the cracks/craters close up as if the moon is a fingertip away :) The moon is literally in your face :) Your 10" will do it perfectly, as would most scopes.

Hold on so what you are saying, correct me if I am wring, is that the lower you go in "mm" the close you get to a close up pic? Is that correct? :confused:

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 02:55 PM

Hold on so what you are saying, correct me if I am wring, is that the lower you go in "mm" the close you get to a close up pic? Is that correct? :confused:Correct. Your magnification is worked out with telescopes the same way as its done with a normal camera. Its basic physics.

Magnification is = Focal Length of Telescope / Focal Length of the Eyepiece.

My Skywatcher has a fixed focal length of 1000mm.

If I use my 32mm eye piece, I will get a 31.25 x total magnification (based on what the eye would see normally)

If I use my 5mm eye piece. I can get 200 x total magnification.

There are limits though based on the size of your aperture. I have an 8" telescope, so it can essentially pull in 8" of "light" When you start "zooming" in, you are focusing on a smaller portion of that total light. So the higher I magnify, the dimmer the object becomes. My "effective" magnification on my Telescope is about 400 x (So a 2.5mm Eye Piece). Somebody with a bigger scope however, should be able to go more than I can before they start "losing" all light.. and basically get little to no image

EDIT: An important thing to remember with a telescope.. Magnification is not everything.. Aperture is king :) I've also seen more with my 32mm wide angle eye piece, than I have with my 2.5.

marine1

22-07-2008, 02:57 PM

Ok I thought you would have to go higher for better zoom.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:00 PM

Yip Kalvaer is correct. Kalvaer, are you sure your telescope's focal length is only 1000mm? Is it not 1200mm?

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 03:03 PM

1200mm is on a 10", I've got an 8" ( http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=64&class1=1&class2=104 )

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:06 PM

1200mm is on a 10", I've got an 8" ( http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=64&class1=1&class2=104 )

Oh you've got the Newtonian! I thought you had the Dobsonian. The 8" Dobsonian's focal length is 1200mm http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=51&class1=1&class2=106

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:08 PM

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:14 PM

So basically you would need a 1200 or more in terms of focal length and then an eyepiece of 5 mm
So tell me what would I need to see a great shot of the moon surface?
Can you point me in the direction of a local site for the exact product?

The 8" Dobsonian (http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-200mm-8-f1200-parabolic-trusstube-dobsonian-p-871.html) or the 10" Dobsonian (http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-254mm-10-f1200-parabolic-trusstube-dobsonian-p-872.html) will do just fine :)

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 03:17 PM

How much have you got to spend LOL!!!!

But its a combination though of all of them. You could get a scope with a very long focal length, but if its focal ratio is to high, your going to get a very dim image. So a telescope with an aperture of f/10 or above is what to look for when doing the stars and planet thing. F/8 is good for general sky viewing. You will need to go down to an f/6 or less for catching deep sky.

The short Focal ration also means shorter exposure times when doing photography ( http://www.astrocruise.com/articles/film/astroexp.htm ). Mercurials Dob, and my Newtownian both have a F/5.. But because he has a bigger aperture, he can zoom in more than I can

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:18 PM

Merc, I have a 150-500 lens, is that not better than these two? Also is it very easy to connect to a camera? Will I be able to see more than just the moon? Thanks man for the help

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:24 PM

Why cant you connect a normal telescope up to a camera?

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:24 PM

Merc, I have a 150-500 lens, is that not better than these two? Also is it very easy to connect to a camera? Will I be able to see more than just the moon? Thanks man for the help

When attaching your SLR to your telescope, you don't use the SLR's lens at all. You attach a camera adaptor the SLR and attach the SLR to the telescope. This means that the "lens" is actually the size of your telescope's focal length. IOW, if you have a 1200mm focal length telescope and you attach your SLR with only its camera adaptor, you effectively have a 1200mm eyepiece. This might confuse you because in photography, the higher the number, the more you can zoom, whereas in telescopes, the smaller the number, the more you can zoom. It basically means that you can zoom very, very far! Kalvaer, if I'm mistaken, please correct me as I've never attached a SLR to a telescope before, so I speak under correction.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:27 PM

Why cant you connect a normal telescope up to a camera?

Well, for one, it won't fit. The other reason is that the images are pretty crappy :)
You would need to physically hold up the camera to the eyepiece of the telescope and take images. I've done it before but trust me, it's not ideal at all.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:28 PM

Oh and you will be able to see planets. Readily you will see Saturn and Jupiter :)
It depends on the time of the year when planets are closest to us, that's the best time to view them. Also, atmospheric conditions come into play when viewing. Best to view it in Winter and hope there's no wind. In Winter, the cold air descends and hence less light pollution. In Summer, the warm air rises and you have more light pollution to deal with. If you wanna view nebulae, you need filters that sifts out there specific wavelengths and blocks out all other non-important light/pollution.

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:29 PM

Merc no I get that first part but what I am asking is...wont my 500mm lens be better than those telescopes? So 1200 mm telescope for slr is very strong?

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:30 PM

Oh and you will be able to see planets. Readily you will see Saturn and Jupiter :)

Really? Wow

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:32 PM

Merc no I get that first part but what I am asking is...wont my 500mm lens be better than those telescopes? So 1200 mm telescope for slr is very strong?

Oh I see what you mean. It won't be near as powerful AFAIK (I speak under correction)
1200mm will be great. The bigger the better.

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:33 PM

ah ha thanks man :D

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:35 PM

Really? Wow

Yip :)
I behaved like a silly little girl when I accidentally stumbled across Saturn :o
It's an absolute beauty :)
It's getting further away ATM so I can't see it that well now. A few months ago I could see as it was closer to us.
You can basically see the planets with your naked eye, but you need to know where to look. Just look outside tonight, over the eastern horizon and higher. Go out at about 20:00 to be safe. You will see a very, very bright "star". That's Jupiter ;)
Saturn and Mars are basically directly opposite Jupiter and far over to the other side. The appear to be close to each other, but they're too far away now and they set quickly. After 20:00-ish it sets so quick and eventually I can't see it anymore. I'll wait until the end of the year to see where Mars will be.

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:38 PM

Amazing !!!! Thanks man. I am truly fascinated with the stars. I really want to get this scope now :D

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:38 PM

So with those 2 scopes i will see the planets?
Would it be better to get a motorized lens?

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:42 PM

So with those 2 scopes i will see the planets?

With any of them you will be able to see it, but I always say go for the bigger one if you can afford it :) because it lets you see more. If you are loaded, go for a refractor or Cassegrain. They are much more portable than the Dobsonians. But I think for now this is fine.

Amazing !!!! Thanks man. I am truly fascinated with the stars. I really want to get this scope now :D

Lol, go for it :)
I consider it an investment.

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 03:45 PM

It basically means that you can zoom very, very far! Kalvaer, if I'm mistaken, please correct me as I've never attached a SLR to a telescope before, so I speak under correction.LOL Correct, What happens this way is that your telescope actually now becomes the lens of your Camera.

There are 3 "basic" ways to do astro photography

1) Prime Focus - You use the Telescope as the lens (requires a T piece Adaptor).
2) Eye Piece projection - You use another adaptor, to add a normal EP, into the FOV so you can then magnify more
3) Piggy Back. - Strap the Camera onto the back of the Telescope. Usually ised with scope that has a tracking drive or a tripod.

You can of course just hold the camera there infront of the EP or make a bracket to hold your camera, But thats usually harder to do than the above.. .and the images suck

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:49 PM

If you are loaded, go for a refractor or Cassegrain. They are much more portable than the Dobsonians. But I think for now this is fine.
Was just going to ask you about those. I called that shop but the guy who is the expert was not in. Left my name and number.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:51 PM

Great. I need to get a cam now. Still not sure how much quality I'd be losing if I choose a SLR over a CCD. Those CCD images are bloody stunning.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:54 PM

Was just going to ask you about those. I called that shop but the guy who is the expert was not in. Left my name and number.

Reflectors(Dobsonian/Newtonian) uses mirrors. Refractors uses powerful lenses; Catadioptric(Cassegrains) uses both refractors and reflectors.
They are equally very pricey(refractors and Cassegrains). But if you are by the means, go ahead :)
I gotta go now. I'm sure Kalvaer will be able answer all of your questions :)
I'll check in again tomorrow ;)

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:54 PM

Well you buy the telescope I will bring the camera. :D

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 03:54 PM

Yip :)
I behaved like a silly little girl when I accidentally stumbled across Saturn :o
It's an absolute beauty :)ROFLOL... seeing Saturn for the first time was what got me into astronomy.

Dont laugh.. but here is a photo taken with cellphone held to the lens.. which still is not bad considering that there was no way to set up exposure or anything.

http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/saturn.jpg

Oh and Marine1.. here is a really nice guide that helped me decide. http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/122720/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:56 PM

Guys thanks for the great advice and help. You guys helped a lot.

mercurial

22-07-2008, 03:58 PM

Guys thanks for the great advice and help. You guys helped a lot.

No problem :)

ROFLOL... seeing Saturn for the first time was what got me into astronomy.

Dont laugh.. but here is a photo taken with cellphone held to the lens.. which still is not bad considering that there was no way to set up exposure or anything.

http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/saturn.jpg

Hey that's a really nice pic for a cellphone! Chat to you guys tomorrow :)

marine1

22-07-2008, 03:58 PM

Holy *****, you took that with a cllphone? ROFL brilliant.

ROFLOL... seeing Saturn for the first time was what got me into astronomy.

Dont laugh.. but here is a photo taken with cellphone held to the lens.. which still is not bad considering that there was no way to set up exposure or anything.

http://www.wakesa.com/Temp/saturn.jpg

Oh and Marine1.. here is a really nice guide that helped me decide. http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/122720/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 04:02 PM

Holy *****, you took that with a cllphone? ROFL brilliant.LOL, Going to see if I can "steal" my dads Canon tonight and set it up and see what I can do.

Kalvaer

22-07-2008, 05:18 PM

And damn! Forgot I'm going out for supper tonight with my wife and some of her work colleagues. Will have to try tomorrow

marine1

22-07-2008, 05:38 PM

Guys help !!!
I just found an old Tasco Telescope that I think will work.
What do you think?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26500416@N07/sets/72157606316383101/

mercurial

22-07-2008, 07:20 PM

I don't know much about Tasco. The mainstream and most popular/well known brands are SkyWatcher, Meade, Celestron and Orion (in no particular order).

Digital SLR Astrophotography Tutorial (http://www.astro.shoregalaxy.com/dslr_astro.htm)

Nanfeishen

23-07-2008, 12:14 AM

Nice topic.
Got this little baby to hook up to my pentax
K100D, havent had the time to try her out yet though :(
http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/product.php?id=44&class1=2&class2=201
Although this past weekend managed to get a few shots of the southern cross region off the Pentax using an old standard 50mm lens.
Still trying to get the hang of the feel of the camera, and learning the tricks with noise reduction settings and various colour saturations ect.

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:23 AM

Guys help !!!
I just found an old Tasco Telescope that I think will work.
What do you think?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26500416@N07/sets/72157606316383101/

Honest opinion???? You read above how I said I use a crappy "old scope" as guide scope for my astro work... Its a tasco....

Tasco are what the Americans call 'department store' scopes. They are cheap, nasty.. But they will do the job. The photo I showed above of Saturn, was taken through a Tasco Refractor. So they can work.

I was talking to my wife earlier this evening though about all this today and she said I had to bring something up

You need to decide what you want to do with a Telescope before you buy. If you want to see things you normally cant see with the naked eye.. Get something like a Tasco (Or a REALLY expensive set of binoculars). I have shown more people saturn on our old Tasco than my new scope.. Its quick and easy to set up, Even drunk... Though I wont take my Newtonian out while drinking.. Its heavy, expensive and takes about 30 min to set up the tracking drives to the celestrial pole 100%

Now dont get me wrong.. I actually still use some of my Tasco EP's to view things, Its not like they dont work... They just dont work as well as some of the higher priced lenses. Just like the filters Merc wants too buy. If you put those filters in next to what I currently have and compare them to mine... Those will destroy mine.. No doubt.

Before you buy any scope though, you need to decide.. What do you want to do with your new Telescope? Best all-rounder, or "best bang for your buck".. Buy a Dob
Especially since you can get a 10"-12" Dob for the same price as a 6"-8" Newt. Now remember.. the more aperture you have.. the more you will see. So a bigger dob will do more... PLUS.. there is pretty much zero setup up time (Correct me if I'm wrong here Merc?).

If you want to take Astro photo's though. You will have to start looking into a Newtonian, or a Schmitt Cassegrain. Biggest reason is how they work. To automate a dob is costly, But since you can see so much more its not a problem as long as you dont mind trying to track manually, and have time to try. BUT, try and take a photo, though of a deep sky object, that will take you 30 minutes min to film... You need a way for the Telescope to at least try and auto track.

To do that, you need a mount with tracking drives, and ones that are going to be fairly accurate. Something that is possible.. but very costly on a DOB to get right.

Best bet for Astro work, is an Equatorial mount (The angles are rotated to be the same as the earth's rotation, so when you go up/down.. it turns north/south, and your left/right, goes east/west.. In astro terms that is.. not our normal bearings). So it rotates and moves exactly like the earth does, so its much easier to track something over 30 min. But the mounts are expensive.

Schmitt Cassegrain can and usually work on an Azimuth mount. They can do the same as Equatorial, But their up is actually up, and left is left.. So their drives have to work in multiple directions at once.. Meaning again that their mounts are much more expensive, as are the scopes since they are much more complicated. But a 10" Schmitt, will be about the same size as my 8" Newt.. So how much space do you have to store it? The latest Schmitts I think are more than likely much better than equatorials.. But they are about 3 times the price. They also usually have a much longer focal lenth.. which means.. you'll need double the exposure time for the same photo of a newt or dob.

Bottom line and seriously... What do you REALLY want to do with your scope.. Decide that before you buy... Or you might end up hating us all

mercurial

23-07-2008, 01:07 AM

Especially since you can get a 10"-12" Dob for the same price as a 6"-8" Newt. Now remember.. the more aperture you have.. the more you will see. So a bigger dob will do more... PLUS.. there is pretty much zero setup up time (Correct me if I'm wrong here Merc?).

If you want to take Astro photo's though. You will have to start looking into a Newtonian, or a Schmitt Cassegrain. Biggest reason is how they work. To automate a dob is costly, But since you can see so much more its not a problem as long as you dont mind trying to track manually, and have time to try. BUT, try and take a photo, though of a deep sky object, that will take you 30 minutes min to film... You need a way for the Telescope to at least try and auto track.

To do that, you need a mount with tracking drives, and ones that are going to be fairly accurate. Something that is possible.. but very costly on a DOB to get right.

Best bet for Astro work, is an Equatorial mount (The angles are rotated to be the same as the earth's rotation, so when you go up/down.. it turns north/south, and your left/right, goes east/west.. In astro terms that is.. not our normal bearings). So it rotates and moves exactly like the earth does, so its much easier to track something over 30 min. But the mounts are expensive.

Schmitt Cassegrain can and usually work on an Azimuth mount. They can do the same as Equatorial, But their up is actually up, and left is left.. So their drives have to work in multiple directions at once.. Meaning again that their mounts are much more expensive, as are the scopes since they are much more complicated. But a 10" Schmitt, will be about the same size as my 8" Newt.. So how much space do you have to store it? The latest Schmitts I think are more than likely much better than equatorials.. But they are about 3 times the price. They also usually have a much longer focal lenth.. which means.. you'll need double the exposure time for the same photo of a newt or dob.

Bottom line and seriously... What do you REALLY want to do with your scope.. Decide that before you buy... Or you might end up hating us all

Correct :)

Some links:

Size of our planets (http://www.rense.com/general72/size.htm)

Links to astronomy software & resources:

• http://www.thinkastronomy.com/M13/common/download.html
• http://astro.nineplanets.org/astrosoftware.html
• http://www.pierpaoloricci.it/download/downloadsoftware_eng.htm
• Online Night Sky Atlas (http://skyatlas.rgbstore.com/index.jsp)

marine1

23-07-2008, 05:56 AM

Awseome post - thanks so much man !!

Honest opinion???? You read above how I said I use a crappy "old scope" as guide scope for my astro work... Its a tasco....

Tasco are what the Americans call 'department store' scopes. They are cheap, nasty.. But they will do the job. The photo I showed above of Saturn, was taken through a Tasco Refractor. So they can work.

I was talking to my wife earlier this evening though about all this today and she said I had to bring something up

You need to decide what you want to do with a Telescope before you buy. If you want to see things you normally cant see with the naked eye.. Get something like a Tasco (Or a REALLY expensive set of binoculars). I have shown more people saturn on our old Tasco than my new scope.. Its quick and easy to set up, Even drunk... Though I wont take my Newtonian out while drinking.. Its heavy, expensive and takes about 30 min to set up the tracking drives to the celestrial pole 100%

Now dont get me wrong.. I actually still use some of my Tasco EP's to view things, Its not like they dont work... They just dont work as well as some of the higher priced lenses. Just like the filters Merc wants too buy. If you put those filters in next to what I currently have and compare them to mine... Those will destroy mine.. No doubt.

Before you buy any scope though, you need to decide.. What do you want to do with your new Telescope? Best all-rounder, or "best bang for your buck".. Buy a Dob
Especially since you can get a 10"-12" Dob for the same price as a 6"-8" Newt. Now remember.. the more aperture you have.. the more you will see. So a bigger dob will do more... PLUS.. there is pretty much zero setup up time (Correct me if I'm wrong here Merc?).

If you want to take Astro photo's though. You will have to start looking into a Newtonian, or a Schmitt Cassegrain. Biggest reason is how they work. To automate a dob is costly, But since you can see so much more its not a problem as long as you dont mind trying to track manually, and have time to try. BUT, try and take a photo, though of a deep sky object, that will take you 30 minutes min to film... You need a way for the Telescope to at least try and auto track.

To do that, you need a mount with tracking drives, and ones that are going to be fairly accurate. Something that is possible.. but very costly on a DOB to get right.

Best bet for Astro work, is an Equatorial mount (The angles are rotated to be the same as the earth's rotation, so when you go up/down.. it turns north/south, and your left/right, goes east/west.. In astro terms that is.. not our normal bearings). So it rotates and moves exactly like the earth does, so its much easier to track something over 30 min. But the mounts are expensive.

Schmitt Cassegrain can and usually work on an Azimuth mount. They can do the same as Equatorial, But their up is actually up, and left is left.. So their drives have to work in multiple directions at once.. Meaning again that their mounts are much more expensive, as are the scopes since they are much more complicated. But a 10" Schmitt, will be about the same size as my 8" Newt.. So how much space do you have to store it? The latest Schmitts I think are more than likely much better than equatorials.. But they are about 3 times the price. They also usually have a much longer focal lenth.. which means.. you'll need double the exposure time for the same photo of a newt or dob.

Bottom line and seriously... What do you REALLY want to do with your scope.. Decide that before you buy... Or you might end up hating us all

mercurial

23-07-2008, 08:37 AM

bwana

23-07-2008, 09:05 AM

I'm thinking of going for a Sony lol. I'm sorry that I keep changing my mind, but I want a SLR that's capable of delivering when it comes to astrophotography as well. The Sony Alpha range has CCDs instead of CMOS sensors, which is perfect for astrophotography - long, long exposures without a noise issue.I'm still not convinced by that argument - all the literature I've been shown by yourself and Kalvaer were either outdated (3 years plus) or said that both CCD and CMOS benefited from being cooled for astrophotography and, in dSLR, none were - therefore no benefit.

Did I miss something that really sways things in favour of [-]CMOS[/-] CCD because if anyone asks me in the future I'd love to have a convincing and accurate reason to give them.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 09:14 AM

I'm still not convinced by that argument - all the literature I've been shown by yourself and Kalvaer were either outdated (3 years plus) or said that both CCD and CMOS benefited from being cooled for astrophotography and, in dSLR, none were - therefore no benefit.

Did I miss something that really sways things in favour of CMOS because if anyone asks me in the future I'd love to have a convincing and accurate reason to give them.

There's a reason why CCD cameras are used for astrophotography. If you buy the out-and-out genuine astrophotography equipment, they are all CCDs. There's obviously a reason for that. It's all got to do with the way the sensors work and the cooling that is lacking in the SLRs, that is present in the CCDs. There's nothing that sways in the favour of CMOS. It's in the favour of CCDs. I'll do more research on it and post back here.

bwana

23-07-2008, 09:18 AM

There's a reason why CCD cameras are used for astrophotography. If you buy the out-and-out genuine astrophotography equipment, they are all CCDs. There's obviously a reason for that. It's all got to do with the way the sensors work and the cooling that is lacking in the SLRs, that is present in the CCDs. There's nothing that sways in the favour of CMOS. It's in the favour of CCDs. I'll do more research on it and post back here.(sorry - I think I got ccd and cmos reversed in my last post)

From what I've been shown the genuine astrophotography cameras are cooled which does give one chip the advantage however as both types of chips need cooling and neither are cooled in dSLRs I'm not seeing how either has an advantage.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 09:33 AM

(sorry - I think I got ccd and cmos reversed in my last post)

From what I've been shown the genuine astrophotography cameras are cooled which does give one chip the advantage however as both types of chips need cooling and neither are cooled in dSLRs I'm not seeing how either has an advantage.

Oh, I see what you mean. I thought all CCD sensors had cooling? I need to do some more research.

I am in Lonehill., Sandton

Lol I'm in Cape Town.

bwana

23-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Oh, I see what you mean. I thought all CCD sensors had cooling? I need to do some more research.

Lol I'm in Cape Town.Here's an interesting read on using Canon and Nikon dSLRs - http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/NIK_CAN.HTM

From the sounds of things getting a cheap second hand model and having the "low-pass, long-wavelength filter" removed might be an idea. Then you could have a dedicated astrophotographic camera and get a general use dSLR that you wont have to modify (and lose your warranty).

mercurial

23-07-2008, 09:39 AM

Here's an interesting read on using Canon and Nikon dSLRs - http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/NIK_CAN.HTM

Thanks I'll have a look :)

mercurial

23-07-2008, 10:04 AM

Ok I had a look at that, but the pics taken with the 400D were not really impressive. It also seems that the built in IR Cut filter of the 400D will prevent me from seeing specific nebulae.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 10:12 AM

Lol now I read a PDF and the guy says that the 400D had the less noise. * SIGH *
All these things are confusing me lol.

bwana

23-07-2008, 10:13 AM

Ok I had a look at that, but the pics taken with the 400D were not really impressive. It also seems that the built in IR Cut filter of the 400D will prevent me from seeing specific nebulae.Out of curiosity can you find a dSLR that doesnt have a IR filter?

As I mentioned above - if you got a cheap secondhand dSLR you could remove it :)

Where were the 400D pics? Here? http://www.skynews.ca/PDF/SLRcameras.pdf

mercurial

23-07-2008, 10:18 AM

Out of curiosity can you find a dSLR that doesnt have a IR filter?

As I mentioned above - if you got a cheap secondhand dSLR you could remove it :)

Where were the 400D pics? Here? http://www.skynews.ca/PDF/SLRcameras.pdf

If I remove it, then I void the warranty and then it might also be tricky when I wanna take non-astro pics with it - they said it messes up the auto-focus or something like that. The pics were in one of the bottom links - just go thru each pic to see with which cam it was taken with - here's the link - http://www.seo-e.co.jp/hobby.htm. I had a look at the PDF, in which the guy says that the 400D had less noise.

Azrael

23-07-2008, 10:18 AM

Out of curiosity can you find a dSLR that doesnt have a IR filter?

Only the Canon 20Da (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0502/05021405canoneos20da.asp) that I'm aware of

bwana

23-07-2008, 10:19 AM

Only the Canon 20Da (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0502/05021405canoneos20da.asp) that I'm aware ofThat seems to be the holy grail of astrophotographic dSLRs that more recent cameras are measured against (since production stopped a few years ago).
If I remove it, then I void the warranty and then it might also be tricky when I wanna take non-astro pics with it - they said it messes up the auto-focus or something like that. The pics were in one of the bottom links - just go thru each pic to see with which cam it was taken with - here's the link - http://www.seo-e.co.jp/hobby.htm. I had a look at the PDF, in which the guy says that the 400D had less noise.Yep thats why I said get a cheap second hand one specifically to use for astrophotography because you'll be voiding the warranty. ;)

mercurial

23-07-2008, 10:38 AM

I'm getting mixed ideas from the web. Apparently I would want to block out certain IR light, which means no problem as far as 400D is concerned. AFAIK, it will only disallow me to see the nebulae in the Hydrogen emission range like the Horsehead nebula.

koffiejunkie

23-07-2008, 11:18 AM

Guys, the CCD/CMOS argument with regards to noise is about high ISO, not just general. And for that I agree CCD wins. I've taken shots at 3200 ISO with the Pentax K100D Super(CCD) that has as little, if not less noise, than my Canon 40D (CMOS) at 800 ISO.

But that's irrelevant for long exposures, as you can drop the ISO to where your camera performs best.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 11:25 AM

I was advised to invest in a webcam for astrophotography in my particular situation. I'm looking into that now.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 11:26 AM

Kalvaer, I was advised to get a webcam for astrophotography in my case. Any advise you can offer me? :)

marine1

23-07-2008, 11:26 AM

How would a webcam do the trick? Surely a proper DSLR is better. Or am I wrong?

adelp

23-07-2008, 11:28 AM

Nikon. Thats all that needs to be said.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 11:33 AM

How would a webcam do the trick? Surely a proper DSLR is better. Or am I wrong?

It fits into the same area as the SLR. Plus the webcam is CCD :)

marine1

23-07-2008, 11:38 AM

But how? Surely a webcam cannot be near the quality of a good SLR???

marine1

23-07-2008, 11:43 AM

Guys I did a very naughty thing today :( I went and bought a telescope. :(:(:(:(:(

mercurial

23-07-2008, 11:54 AM

But how? Surely a webcam cannot be near the quality of a good SLR???

It's very high quality. Not sure how much difference in quality there is.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 11:54 AM

Guys I did a very naughty thing today :( I went and bought a telescope. :(:(:(:(:(

Lol, why are you sad? What kind of telescope did you buy, where did you buy it and how much did it cost?

marine1

23-07-2008, 11:57 AM

I am sad because i spent a small fortune :( Supposed to be saving.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 12:02 PM

I am sad because i spent a small fortune :( Supposed to be saving.

Human nature to be impulsive :)
Come on, spill the beans :D
What are you saving for btw? If I may ask.

marine1

23-07-2008, 12:11 PM

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:12 PM

A Webcam for a dob would be much better since even if your tracking isn't spot on. Registax or something like that can crop, stack and rotate the images.

The dob works on an Azimuth mount right. So the problem comes in that the objects rotate. The Azimuth cant (unless you build a wedge for it). You can follow the object, but not its rotation. Have a look at Jupiter tonight if you can. Check the angle of the bands and then check again about 30 min later.. You will see they have shifted in your scope.

To try it out, what I would do is go buy a cheap webcam from Incredible corruption or any other supplier you know of (About R200, and CCD if you can, but CMOS will work). Then modify it to fit on your Dob. If you get a logitech, you can follow my guide I posted above here somewhere, Or check this link for some other mods guys have made: http://www.astrosurf.com/re/qc.html Yes your images will be a max of 640x480, but its a nice start and will give the same quality as the lower end Meade CCD's

Then download one of these programs:
Freeware:
wxAstroCapture (http://arnholm.org/astro/software/wxAstroCapture/index.htm)
Sharewhare:
K3CCDTools (http://www.pk3.org/Astro/index.htm?k3ccdtools.htm) (Really advanced and can even help with polar alignment as it can star track and give dec and ra variations)

Both of them work very well and will allow you to make an AVI file of what you are seeing. Then use Registax to split the file and stack your new image. If you are happy with the results, Then it depends on how much you want to spend :D the SBIGS are the best.. but costly. If I could buy right now, personally it would be one of these:

1: StarShoot Deep-Space CCD Color Imaging Camera (http://shop.technopro.co.za/starshoot-deepspace-ccd-color-imaging-camera-p-448.html)
2: Meade DSI II PRO w/ CCD Colour Filters (http://shop.technopro.co.za/meade-dsi-ii-pro-w-ccd-colour-filters-04527-p-169.html)
3: Astroware DS 330C ICE (http://telescopeshop.co.za/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=345)

marine1

23-07-2008, 12:12 PM

Human nature to be impulsive :)
Come on, spill the beans :D
What are you saving for btw? If I may ask.

Dont ask buddy. Sorry I am in jhb btw :(

marine1

23-07-2008, 12:13 PM

Kalv. What program could i use to control my machine above via my laptop?
Thanks

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:14 PM

I am sad because i spent a small fortune :( Supposed to be saving.LOL.. Quick question though.. did you phone Kobie first? I'm not sure if that Goto will work on the EQ3 mount?

BUT that is a really nice scope!

mercurial

23-07-2008, 12:16 PM

http://shop.technopro.co.za/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=127+eq3

http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-telescope-power-tank-12v-power-supply-p-121.html

http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-skyscan-upgrade-kit-for-eq5-mount-p-864.html

Thanks, I'll check it out.

A Webcam for a dob would be much better since even if your tracking isn't spot on. Registax or something like that can crop, stack and rotate the images.

The dob works on an Azimuth mount right. So the problem comes in that the objects rotate. The Azimuth cant (unless you build a wedge for it). You can follow the object, but not its rotation. Have a look at Jupiter tonight if you can. Check the angle of the bands and then check again about 30 min later.. You will see they have shifted in your scope.

To try it out, what I would do is go buy a cheap webcam from Incredible corruption or any other supplier you know of (About R200, and CCD if you can, but CMOS will work). Then modify it to fit on your Dob. If you get a logitech, you can follow my guide I posted above here somewhere, Or check this link for some other mods guys have made: http://www.astrosurf.com/re/qc.html Yes your images will be a max of 640x480, but its a nice start and will give the same quality as the lower end Meade CCD's

Then download one of these programs:
Freeware:
wxAstroCapture (http://arnholm.org/astro/software/wxAstroCapture/index.htm)
Sharewhare:
K3CCDTools (http://www.pk3.org/Astro/index.htm?k3ccdtools.htm) (Really advanced and can even help with polar alignment as it can star track and give dec and ra variations)

Both of them work very well and will allow you to make an AVI file of what you are seeing. Then use Registax to split the file and stack your new image. If you are happy with the results, Then it depends on how much you want to spend :D the SBIGS are the best.. but costly. If I could buy right now, personally it would be one of these:

1: StarShoot Deep-Space CCD Color Imaging Camera (http://shop.technopro.co.za/starshoot-deepspace-ccd-color-imaging-camera-p-448.html)
2: Meade DSI II PRO w/ CCD Colour Filters (http://shop.technopro.co.za/meade-dsi-ii-pro-w-ccd-colour-filters-04527-p-169.html)
3: Astroware DS 330C ICE (http://telescopeshop.co.za/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=75&products_id=345)

Great stuff. Thanks :D

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:21 PM

Kalv. What program could i use to control my machine above via my laptop?
Thanksthe EQ5 SYNSCAN might come with its own software.. I'm not sure, but there are many free ones available. K3CCDTools would work if you connect it to the camera, Or something like Cartes du Ciel

marine1

23-07-2008, 12:22 PM

LOL.. Quick question though.. did you phone Kobie first? I'm not sure if that Goto will work on the EQ3 mount?

BUT that is a really nice scope!I went to Kobie and he sat with me for about an hour explaining everything. What a great guy. I told him you promoted him here and he is great. I had no intention of buying this but he was so helpfull i had to buy :D
He literally sat with me for about an hour explaining everything - do you think it was the right choice?

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:31 PM

It fits into the same area as the SLR. Plus the webcam is CCD :)The other problem is the Shutter on an SLR. With Digital Astro work, you are taking a few hundred photo's, and then you stack them together. Each time that happens the shutter and mirror works. Do a few hours of work over a month or two.. and your DSLR will need a new shutter/Mirror mech.

Which is one of the reason why the Olympus OM1 was so great for astro work, You could physically flip the mirror our of the way and shoot all night while not effectting the camera's mechanics

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:39 PM

I went to Kobie and he sat with me for about an hour explaining everything. What a great guy. I told him you promoted him here and he is great. I had no intention of buying this but he was so helpfull i had to buy :D
He literally sat with me for about an hour explaining everything - do you think it was the right choice?If Kobie said so... then hell yeah.. LOL I know guys who would try and sell you a 60k Scope and convince you that it was what you needed. Kobie loves Astronomy and will always give you advice that is best for you.

You must see some of his scopes though :eek
Looking at something like the beehive cluster on his and then on mine and its like chalk and cheese.

mercurial

23-07-2008, 12:45 PM

The other problem is the Shutter on an SLR. With Digital Astro work, you are taking a few hundred photo's, and then you stack them together. Each time that happens the shutter and mirror works. Do a few hours of work over a month or two.. and your DSLR will need a new shutter/Mirror mech.

Which is one of the reason why the Olympus OM1 was so great for astro work, You could physically flip the mirror our of the way and shoot all night while not effectting the camera's mechanics

I see. But if I'm not gonna be stacking then a SLR would suffice right? I'm not too happy that the webcams only take 640x480 and the ones that take the higher resolutions are very expensive.

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:51 PM

I see. But if I'm not gonna be stacking then a SLR would suffice right? I'm not too happy that the webcams only take 640x480 and the ones that take the higher resolutions are very expensive.With SLR... You will have to stack. With your Focal Ratio on your scope, a deepsky image at Medium Elevation will take about 24 min exposure... Whats the longest time you can do digital exposures before you get CCD heatup and noise on your images? Plus.. You wont be able to manually track something for 24min on a dob.. Or well.. LOL I know I wont be able to.

You do get SLR's though that have the option to keep the mirror up, But I think they again get costly

mercurial

23-07-2008, 12:54 PM

With SLR... You will have to stack. With your Focal Ratio on your scope, a deepsky image at Medium Elevation will take about 24 min exposure... Whats the longest time you can do digital exposures before you get CCD heatup and noise on your images? Plus.. You wont be able to manually track something for 24min on a dob.. Or well.. LOL I know I wont be able to.

You do get SLR's though that have the option to keep the mirror up, But I think they again get costly

*SIGH* this is getting tricky, confusing and irritating lol. What will I need if I have a SLR? You mentioned a wedge?

marine1

23-07-2008, 12:56 PM

Well he initially showed me a cheaper one but I thought screw it lets go a bit bigger and I wanted the better stand and remote.

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 12:58 PM

Well its a really nice setup. I still want to get the synscan myself as well.... so I'm now a bit jealous :D

marine1

23-07-2008, 01:04 PM

:) Tell me do you put the camera on manual focus or should it be on auto focus?
Thanks.

bwana

23-07-2008, 01:05 PM

With SLR... You will have to stack. With your Focal Ratio on your scope, a deepsky image at Medium Elevation will take about 24 min exposure... Whats the longest time you can do digital exposures before you get CCD heatup and noise on your images? Plus.. You wont be able to manually track something for 24min on a dob.. Or well.. LOL I know I wont be able to.

You do get SLR's though that have the option to keep the mirror up, But I think they again get costlyI know the 400D has mirror lockup - always wondered what one might use it for.

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 01:05 PM

*SIGH* this is getting tricky, confusing and irritating lol. What will I need if I have a SLR? You mentioned a wedge?To be honest, I'm not sure how they work at all. Only heard them mentioned and seen some extensive projects guys were building. Not sure at all how its done though :confused:

mercurial

23-07-2008, 01:11 PM

To be honest, I'm not sure how they work at all. Only heard them mentioned and seen some extensive projects guys were building. Not sure at all how its done though :confused:

Ok cool. I need to do some more research :(
What is that whole mirror lockup thing you mentioned?

mercurial

23-07-2008, 01:13 PM

That's a lot of moola marine1 :D

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 01:17 PM

Some of them can autofocus and get away with it. Sometimes they cant. It all depends on what you are actually trying to take photo's of.

Best way is to use something called a Hartmans Mask. Its really quick and easy to make though: http://rao.150m.com/Focusaid.html. You can go and buy a knife edge focuser, but they again are expensive.

You will however have to get yourself a a T-Ring for your camera and something like a Tele-extender for Prime Focus Photography. Kobie should be able to tell you exactly what one you need though for your setup.

bwana

23-07-2008, 01:18 PM

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 01:23 PM

So you're saying it was the CCD sensor that made the difference and not the built noise reduction or other processing/hardware?What about the heat build up on the CCD compared to CMOS on long exposure shots? Does that maybe cause some of the problems or reason why CCD are used more?

bwana

23-07-2008, 01:31 PM

What about the heat build up on the CCD compared to CMOS on long exposure shots? Does that maybe cause some of the problems or reason why CCD are used more?From what all the articles I've seen so far heat build up is a problem with both sensor types. The special astrophotography cameras have cooling to counter this (and have traditionally been CCD) but I guess dSLRs simply dont have the space available. IOW - CCD or CMOS heat build up might be an issue in a dSLR.

One of the articles I read specifically mentioned the ambient temp that night - so obviously the cooler the better. :)

It also said about the Pentax K100D (CCD iirc)
For example, we had the chance to use an older Pentax, the 6-megapixel K100D, as part of our testing. This economy model exhibited so much noise,it proved unsuitable for long exposures. 6minutes, f8, ISO 800 6 minutes, f8, ISO 800 6 minutes, f8, ISO 800 (http://www.skynews.ca/PDF/SLRcameras.pdf)

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 01:35 PM

One of the articles I read specifically mentioned the ambient temp that night - so obviously the cooler the better. :)Yeah but then in cooler temps you get dew build up on your Mirrors' and lenses.. so you have another problem all together again.. Can nothing be easy?

marine1

23-07-2008, 01:37 PM

Thats for sure - nothing is easy. Yeah I have ordered the t piece and adapter - will hopefully get it tomorrow. :(

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 04:31 PM

bwana

23-07-2008, 04:32 PM

I need to get one for my Dads Canon. But I have functions on every night this week.. so seems like I'm not gonna get the scope out anytime soon. Just hope tonight was as bad as last night LOL that way I wont feel badYou would have cried then had you seen the sky here last night - crystal clear with little in the way of light pollution.

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 04:36 PM

There were just tons of fires around by me last night. Everything was so dusty I could hardly see anything. Had one quick look at jupiter and then had to rush out with the wife. I will admit when I got home.. I had one to many beers so dont even think to look up :D

Its my turn to drive tonight.. so maybe I'll be sober when I get home to look

koffiejunkie

23-07-2008, 04:57 PM

You would have cried then had you seen the sky here last night - crystal clear with little in the way of light pollution.

I guess load-shedding has its uses :D

bwana

23-07-2008, 05:17 PM

I guess load-shedding has its uses :DFortunately we havent been subjected to that for quite some time - but I was thinking about it last night, as I was sitting outside supping a beer and enjoying the summer weather (in July) while waiting for the weber to heat up, and I attributed it to the lack of street lights. :)

koffiejunkie

23-07-2008, 05:21 PM

Summer weather? The guys in Jo'burg must be hating you...

Kalvaer

23-07-2008, 06:02 PM

I guess load-shedding has its uses :DROFLOL.. Your not kidding.. First thing we used do when we were load shed, was take the scope outside and pray for clear skies

marine1

23-07-2008, 07:07 PM

Kal, should there be some kind of instruction manual for the "GOTO" tracking unit? Does not seem to be there.

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:49 AM

There should be... or you can download it from the skywather site?.... Whats up though? remember it wont just "GOTO" Unless you have set everything else up right

marine1

24-07-2008, 06:27 AM

Hey bud thanks I will have to call him today, there are no instructions and I dont want to bugger anything up.Thanks for all your help.
Also is there any software that actually works in Vista? :(

mercurial

24-07-2008, 08:23 AM

Not sure. I can't wait to see your astro pics :D

marine1

24-07-2008, 08:27 AM

Me too but i need to get the motor system working, then i will bring it on. :D

mercurial

24-07-2008, 08:45 AM

No worries. I'm sure you'll figure it out. I wanna see how nice your pics are gonna come out. Then I might consider getting a Maksutov as well.

marine1

24-07-2008, 08:57 AM

Well those cassegrain scopes are great apparently. I am waiting for the camera mount and then will post. Cannot wait.

mercurial

24-07-2008, 10:01 AM

Well those cassegrain scopes are great apparently. I am waiting for the camera mount and then will post. Cannot wait.

Yip, they produce the best quality. Can't wait either :D

marine1

24-07-2008, 10:22 AM

Damn waiting for the guy to call me to come collect the attachment for the camera and to get some help installing the motors. :(

mercurial

24-07-2008, 10:27 AM

I'm as excited as you are lol.

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:33 AM

Manuals for the Goto: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?class1=1&class2=180
Manuals for your scope: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtsupport/Instruction_Manuals/GENERAL_EQ3and5.pdf
Manuals for the drives: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtsupport/Instruction_Manuals/HEQ5%20Upgrade%20Kit%20240505V1.pdf

mercurial

24-07-2008, 11:39 AM

Manuals for the Goto: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?class1=1&class2=180
Manuals for your scope: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtsupport/Instruction_Manuals/GENERAL_EQ3and5.pdf

I registered on the CloudyNights forum and some of the guys mentioned an auto-guider. Where can I get something like this and how much will it cost?

marine1

24-07-2008, 11:46 AM

Thanks K. :D:D
Can you find the installation manual for the actual motors for the eq3? Cannot find it anywhere??

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:50 AM

I registered on the CloudyNights forum and some of the guys mentioned an auto-guider. Where can I get something like this and how much will it cost?
Hmm not to sure, My understanding of an auto-guider is when you use another telescope (what I use the Tasco for), connected up to a webcam/CCD Camera, that tracks a star on a computer program and then sends signals back to your tracking drives on your scope to let it track correctly?

Where is the post on CN.. maybe i'm missing something hehe

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:53 AM

Thanks K. :D:D
Can you find the installation manual for the actual motors for the eq3? Cannot find it anywhere??

Which ones did you get? Dual Axis or single?

Dual Axis manual: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?id=49&class1=1&class2=170
Single Axis manual: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?id=48&class1=1&class2=170

mercurial

24-07-2008, 11:55 AM

Hmm not to sure, My understanding of an auto-guider is when you use another telescope (what I use the Tasco for), connected up to a webcam/CCD Camera, that tracks a star on a computer program and then sends signals back to your tracking drives on your scope to let it track correctly?

Where is the post on CN.. maybe i'm missing something hehe

Thanks. I don't really know anything else other than what you just told me lol but it makes sense. These guys overloaded me with accessories and equipment that I need.

Link (http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=DSLR&Number=2535761&fpart=&PHPSESSID=)

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:17 PM

Thanks. I don't really know anything else other than what you just told me lol but it makes sense. These guys overloaded me with accessories and equipment that I need.

Link (http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=DSLR&Number=2535761&fpart=&PHPSESSID=) That is a long list. You can manually guide though, of course its much harder and time consuming as you have to be watching your guidescope all the time and need an illuminated EP to do it.

If your mount is perfectly polar aligned though and tracks very accurately, you wont need it at all, But its a chance you have to take sometimes that your photo's might all be duds that night if something slips. Which is why they all use guiders to help out.

Clownfish on the CN forums has a nicely written explaination of it all on his website here: http://www.petesastrophotography.com/index.html?mainframe=http://www.petesastrophotography.com/guidescopes.html

mercurial

24-07-2008, 12:23 PM

That is a long list. You can manually guide though, of course its much harder and time consuming as you have to be watching your guidescope all the time and need an illuminated EP to do it.

If your mount is perfectly polar aligned though and tracks very accurately, you wont need it at all, But its a chance you have to take sometimes that your photo's might all be duds that night if something slips. Which is why they all use guiders to help out.

Clownfish on the CN forums has a nicely written explaination of it all on his website here: http://www.petesastrophotography.com/index.html?mainframe=http://www.petesastrophotography.com/guidescopes.html

Oh ok, I see. I'll read it in a bit ;) Thanks.

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:25 PM

Oh and about the wedge.. Found this on CN. Midnight Dan explains it all pretty nicely further down into the post. Remember though, it is only with a Alt/Azi Mount. A GEM wont need it

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=beginners&Number=2528705&Forum=f76&Words=digital%20setting%20circles&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2510173&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=1&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2528705

mercurial

24-07-2008, 12:27 PM

Oh and about the wedge.. Found this on CN. Midnight Dan explains it all pretty nicely further down into the post. Remember though, it is only with a Alt/Azi Mount. A GEM wont need it

Ok cool. The thing is, for astrophotography, the things that they suggested is very expesive, and so it's best to see if I can get the equipment for my Dob. It will also be expensive, but probably much less than all the stuff theyr'e talking about...

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:36 PM

Well you wont need them all at once :D Remember that would be what you ultimately would "want" to have.

I'll try find a post I remember about how some guys made tracking systems for their dobs.

mercurial

24-07-2008, 12:38 PM

True. Thanks man. I started reading that first link. Quite a bit to go :D

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:43 PM

Article by a guy planning on doing what you might be with auto tracking your dob: http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/why.html

How its going to have to be done: http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/9601/compudob.htm

mercurial

24-07-2008, 12:48 PM

Dude you rock!

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:49 PM

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/BBAstroDesigns.html

From what I can gather.. this is the guy who started it all

mercurial

24-07-2008, 12:51 PM

I've a lot of reading to now :D

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 12:58 PM

I've a lot of reading to now :D:o Sorry I also realised I forgot to put the link in about the wedge that I mentioned in the post above.. Added it in there now.. so you have more reading

/ducks and hides

mercurial

24-07-2008, 01:06 PM

:o Sorry I also realised I forgot to put the link in about the wedge that I mentioned in the post above.. Added it in there now.. so you have more reading

/ducks and hides

Lol no not at all, I'm glad to learn more. I need to know everything before I try and make the leaps :)
Thanks for your efforts ;)

marine1

24-07-2008, 01:18 PM

Which ones did you get? Dual Axis or single?

Dual Axis manual: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?id=49&class1=1&class2=170
Single Axis manual: http://www.skywatchertelescope.net/swtinc/customer_support.php?id=48&class1=1&class2=170

Mate you are the freaking man, thanks so much. I think it is the dual but not sure how would I know?

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 01:21 PM

The dual will have two drive motors

marine1

24-07-2008, 01:23 PM

Ah ha thanks so much man I dont know why I couldnt find it. Yeah I have the dual.
I told Kobie you are promoting his business and he was very happy although I have no idea who you are. :D

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 01:26 PM

LOL... I'll give him a call later

Oh.. also spoke to the Chairman of ASSA-JHB last night and asked about the 26" refractor. Their next meeting is on the 13th of August at the observatory. Its at 8:00 pm. There will be an hours talk first, and then the usual commitee details (not sure what it will be on, but its usually astronomy related), But then afterwards if the skys are clear, they will open the refractor up if any of you are interested. Jupiter should be in a nice position to see at that time if I remember right

marine1

24-07-2008, 01:36 PM

I am so keen. :) Thanks.

mercurial

24-07-2008, 03:43 PM

I'm in Cape Town :(
Plus it's my mom's birthday the 13th...

Crusader

24-07-2008, 03:45 PM

Great thread guys. Just realized that I haven't taken my scope out in about a month. I definitely have to make some time to do it.

Is there any specific webcam that would work very well for imaging? It seems easy enough to modify one, so I might want to give it a try in the future.

marine1

24-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Plus it's my mom's birthday the 13th...Cancel it :D

mercurial

24-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Hey there. Haven't heard from you in a while. Do you still have that 10" Dob?

mercurial

24-07-2008, 03:51 PM

Cancel it :D

Lol and fly down to Josie for a few hours of bloody Jupiter :D ?

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 03:56 PM

Is there any specific webcam that would work very well for imaging? It seems easy enough to modify one, so I might want to give it a try in the future. The Logitech's or the Phillips Toucam seem to be the ones mostly used. I think mainly because they are so easy to modifiy and give pretty good results for their price.

Oh and Merc.. for you it might be more worth it to drive to Sutherland :D

Crusader

24-07-2008, 04:08 PM

Hey there. Haven't heard from you in a while. Do you still have that 10" Dob?

Yup. And still very happy with it, just haven't had much time to use it. Also in dire need to expand the EP collection...

I see Technopro have a Skywatcher Eyepiece kit (http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-ler-eyepiece-set-p-771.html) for R1185. Seems like a great price for a starter kit. Wonder if it would be worth it...

marine1

24-07-2008, 05:35 PM

Holy cr@po putting this goto system on is complicated, nothing looks like what is on the diagram will have to go there tomorrow. :(

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 05:43 PM

ROFLOL.. its not that bad. Most things can only go in one way.. Just make sure you get your DEC and RA cables in the right side for your tracking drives. I've done it wrong a few times and then want to kill myself laughing when the scope moves the wrong way around.

Its all fun learning though. Your next step I assume once its all together is to learn to polar align.. something else which is really going to be fun because Sigma oct... is not the easiest star to find.

But even if you cant get the GOTO working. Take your scope out and play around with it if condition are fair tonight. You'll have to start teaching yourself how to find things in the dark so every bit of practise helps. Even with out the tracking drives though.. you can still use the scope

It also will help you to learn the stars a bit and you'll still be able to see tons of things you've never seen before. I've never used a goto, and at first I thought I was going to shoot myself, but feels great now when I walk out and can identify certain stars and objects right away with the naked eye.

marine1

24-07-2008, 05:47 PM

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 05:53 PM

I see Technopro have a Skywatcher Eyepiece kit (http://shop.technopro.co.za/skywatcher-ler-eyepiece-set-p-771.html) for R1185. Seems like a great price for a starter kit. Wonder if it would be worth it...I think you can never have enough EP's :) Of course its always better to have some really high quality ones. I bought this kit http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-telescope-eyepiecefilter-accessory-kit-p-120.html and was really happy as it gave me so many other options. Then after finding a particular size that I liked.. I then when and bought the expensive version of it.

My next buy will more than likely be this kit, so I can again have more in the 2" range to play with http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-2-eyepiece-and-filter-kit-94305-p-489.html

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 05:57 PM

I agree Kal, wierd thing is that the EQ3 goto doesnt seem to fit right on the Scope mount but I just called Kobie and asked if I could swing by tomorrow and he said sure. I just am scared to strip the teeth of the gears. I have learned the hard way that if I dont know what I am doing, I must wait for the experts :D

The main thing is I want to see something quick :D
Kal are you going to go to the thing in August?I usually have to :) My wife was the treasurer of ASSA-JHB. But somebody else took the position at this years AGM as she has to much work coming up with CERN. She is still the editor of canopus though, and on the commitee. So unless something suddenly happens.. I'll be there as usual

marine1

24-07-2008, 05:58 PM

Cool I will try and be there as well.

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 06:01 PM

Oh and just thought of something that everyone should buy after thinking about the Eye Pieces... a really good Barlow!

You'll essentially double all of your Eye Pieces with one buy.

Crusader

24-07-2008, 06:04 PM

I think you can never have enough EP's :) Of course its always better to have some really high quality ones. I bought this kit http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-telescope-eyepiecefilter-accessory-kit-p-120.html and was really happy as it gave me so many other options. Then after find a particular size that I liked.. I then when and bought the expensive version of it.

My next buy will more than likely be this kit, so I can again have more in the 2" range to play with http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-2-eyepiece-and-filter-kit-94305-p-489.html

I've been eyeing the Celestron kits myself, but heck at close to R3000 and R4500 they are a bit out of my price range, especially if you consider that they aren't high end EP.

I'll have to decide between a high(ish) end Barlow (The Orion Shorty Plus (http://shop.technopro.co.za/orion-shortyplus%C3%82%E2%84%A2-2x-3element-barlow-p-544.html) or the Celestron Ultima (http://shop.technopro.co.za/celestron-ultima-2x-barlow-lens-p-125.html)) or one of the kits, for my next purchase... the Skywatcher is looking very tempting!

PS. If you are looking for a great book for learning the stars try Albert Jansen's - Star Maps for Southern Africa: An Easy Guide to the Night Skies (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=N7FzZ7ZQ7ZYC&dq=albert+jansen+star+maps&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=YEPVK7QLb7&sig=3-j5-9CFVEhc9WW4ptBlb2vMMsU&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result). It's great for beginners.

I actually knew him, since we always helped him with PC problems. He compiled the book while living down the block from us. Pity he passed away.

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 06:08 PM

I've been eyeing the Celestron kits myself, but heck at close to R3000 and R4500 they are a bit out of my price range, especially if you consider that they aren't high end EP.They are a bit pricy, I cant deny that, But they do come with a nice range of filters and also have a Celstron Barlow included. That was what sold me.

With the skywatcher kit I am not 100% sure as I haven't researched it. But that branding on those EP's looks identical to GSO. GSO make all the lenses for Meade and Orion as well, so they should be decent quality if it is.

marine1

24-07-2008, 06:08 PM

What do the eyepieces actually do?

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 06:16 PM

Think of the Eye Pieces as the lens to your camera. The different numbers effect your magnifaction rate. But as we all know with normal photography, A decent lens can make a bad camera work great

marine1

24-07-2008, 06:19 PM

So mine came with a 5" and 10" is that ok? I think :D

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 06:22 PM

Whats the focal length of your scope again.. take that and divide it by the number on the EP.. that will basically tell you what magnification you will be looking at.

Most new scopes come with pretty generic EP's... same as all camera's. They aint bad.. But they aint great... HEHE Give yourself a few weeks, or maybe even days.. and you will be back at Kobie though buying more EP's

I currently have 14 different EP's.. and I still want more :D

marine1

24-07-2008, 06:25 PM

Ok so my Focal Length is 1500 and I have 2 eye pieces 1: 25mm and 2) 10 mm

Crusader

24-07-2008, 06:53 PM

Ok so my Focal Length is 1500 and I have 2 eye pieces 1: 25mm and 2) 10 mm

That means that you'll get the following magnification:
25 mm = 60x
10 mm = 150x

Your 5" scope is rated as having a max practical power of 254x. So the smallest EP you will be able to use under the most ideal situations would be a 6mm or 5mm EP.

Although I'd reckon that 200x would be a more accurate maximum (40x aperture) estimate.

marine1

24-07-2008, 08:26 PM

Sorry, confused, 5" scope? You mean the EP?
So is this a good setup? Is it strong?

Thanks

What does the barlow do ?

Holy cr@p this is confusing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlow_lens

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:01 PM

A barlow Lens is a special type of lens that "magnifies" your current EP. You get different ones though, Usually a 2x, 2.5x and a 3x Barlow.

What you do is take your 10mm EP, "slot" it into the barlow, and then put the barlow into your focuser. If you have a 2x barlow, your 10mm now becomes a 5mm.

Which is why I said a decent barlow is a really good buy for any amature astronomer, as it "doubles" all your EP's. I have 14 as I mentioned, but with my Barlow.. I actually have 28 different "sizes" to use. Even though some end up being the same number, But the all have different functions.

What Crusader was talking about with the 5".. thats the aperture size of your scope. As to whats good you'll see its hard to say until you know what your looking at. If you use a 5mm EP on something like the Beehive Cluster.. You are not going to see much at all. Because you will be "zooming" in to much. You actually need to use a "bigger" EP to actually see how lovely it looks.

My Fav EP is a 32mm 2" Wide angle. I cant zoom in much at all and wont see much when looking at planets, But just scanning across the sky you suddenly see millions of stars and things that were never there. Every now and then you spot something out of the ordinary which looks like a "fuzzy" spot. Thats when you then try zoom in as much as you can and those fuzzies turn out to be things like Galaxies. I feel like a kid at christmas everytime I find one I have not seen before.

You will also have to "train" your eyes. The more you use your scope the more you will notice things and start realising colours that were not there before. I remember the first time I looked at Orion.. All I saw was stars. Now though, I spot the Nebula everytime and have to think about the stars.. It really is exciting what you'll learn every time you go out, and even looking at the same thing for a week, you'll notice more and see more each time

Crusader

24-07-2008, 11:05 PM

Sorry, confused, 5" scope? You mean the EP?
So is this a good setup? Is it strong?

Thanks

What does the barlow do ?

Holy cr@p this is confusing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlow_lens

If I understood things correctly while speed reading through the rest of the thread, you have the Sky-Watcher SK127MAKEQ3 Maksutov-Cassegrain 5" telescope. The aperture of your scope is 5".

With telescopes, the higher the magnification, the dimmer the object you are looking at will appear. So if you have a large aperture scope you will be able to use eyepieces that gives larger magnifications. A general rule of thumb is that a telescope can handle magnification equal to 40x the arpeture.

So, a 10" scope can provide a max usable magnification of 400x under ideal circumstances. A 5" scope will be able to handle 200x magnification. Once you go above that magnification the image (object you are looking) at will become too dim making it difficult to see.

You'll most likely not want too high magnification because it makes it difficult to track objects and amplifies any flaws in your optics, movement of the mount and atmospheric turbulence. So the two eyepieces you have should be more than enough to keep you busy, since it allows you to view large areas (60x) and zoom in using the 150x on planets etc.

A barlow basically doubles the magnification of your eyepieces. So if you have a 2x barlow and put your 10mm eyepiece in, you'll be able to get a magnification of 300x, which would push beyond your scope's limits.
(Obviously this is a very simplified explanation).

Crusader

24-07-2008, 11:14 PM

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:22 PM

I see Kalvear beat me to it.

Check out http://starizona.com/acb/basics/equip_magnification.aspx

It explains the principles in an easy to understand way, and it shows you images to compare the effects of different magnifications etc.hehe I got lucky.. Actually just got home and was checking up on forums and emails :)

That link though is really great in explaining it. Magnification of objects is great, But its point less without aperture, Both however come at huge costs. Was the first lesson I had to learn and I am sure many others... Sometimes "zooming" in on an object.. is not the best way to view it at all

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:35 PM

Just thinking with the link Crusader posted. Also remember it should take about 7min for your eyes to adjust to "dark", and a total of about 30min might be required for your eye to adjust completely. This means that running inside to the house every 10 min will mean that your eyes will never really adjust to the right conditions to actually see perfectly through your scope. Which is also why everyone uses "red" lights when using a telescope outsides. Red light does not dilate your pupils as much as white light (Green is even worse... and yet we use green lasers with our scopes.. LOL go figure), so you can still see things with a red light, and keep your "night vision".

I have actually also changed all my outside secruity lights to red bulbs.. Nothing worse than having my cat run through the beam and suddenly the whole backyard lights up messing up my observing for 30min while my eyes adjust again. You will also see that most programs for astronomy have "night vision" mode. Basically they change your entire screen red.. so you can still use the laptop outside and not mess up your eyes

If you ever go to a "star party".. Make sure you have a red torch.. astronomers get really finnicky about things like that LOL.

Its not an easy hobby... But its one of the most rewarding ones I have ever done. And also remember that more astronomical discoveries are made by backyard amatures every year, than NASA can on their own.. The night sky is HUGE.. and nobody can be watching it all at the same time So you never know when your out there, that you might just pick up something, that will change the way the world views something tomorrow

Crusader

24-07-2008, 11:37 PM

Sometimes "zooming" in on an object.. is not the best way to view it at all

Indeed. Add to the fact that atmospheric conditions basically limit you to a max of 250x under most seeing conditions and magnification isn't all that great. Large field of view and large aperture is much more important.

Took a quick gander at Jupiter and its 4 moons tonight. Seeing wasn't all that great, but could at least make out the banding in the center very clearly. Well worth lugging the scope out for...

Kalvaer

24-07-2008, 11:47 PM

Aye... the only reason the Hubble can zoom in like it can.. is because they dont have to worry with atmospheric conditions, the rest of us plebs have mother nature to fight with.

I'm half in the mood to take my scope out now.. It looks lovely here tonight.. But I have a meeting tomorrow at 6:00am... So time for me to take a sleeping tab and see ya all tomorrow

marine1

25-07-2008, 05:42 AM

Wow awesome stuff guys, thanks for explaining.

mercurial

25-07-2008, 10:12 AM

Oh and Merc.. for you it might be more worth it to drive to Sutherland :D

Agreed :D

I currently have 14 different EP's.. and I still want more :D

:eek:

Lol, I wanna get me that 8-24mm zoom eyepiece from technopro. I figure that will come in handy for observing nebulae :)

marine1

25-07-2008, 11:40 AM

Gentlemen I must hereby state this Kobie is the man !! I seriously must advise anyone wanting to get into this field to contact him. I swear this morning he sat with me for yet another hour out of his day and helped me set up my scope as I am too stupid to do it properly myself. :D
I will hopefully be posting some pics soon.

You dont often find people that are willing to sit with you and explain everything for free.

I look forward to taking some great photos.

http://www.technopro.co.za/
Top guy !!
Thanks for referring me there.
I cannot blv the service from this guy. Seriously guys do yourself a favour and visit their store. He also has great prices. I am one happy customer !! :D:D

Oh yeah and instead of making a profit on the "T" piece for my camera he sent me directly to the guy who was selling it. Thumbs up !!