2004 ICASA complaint [Archive]

rpm

24-02-2004, 08:57 AM

Hi folks

I would just like to inform you that ICASA has confirmed the reception of the complaint and that they are currently reviewing it. It has been delivered to the offices of Ms. J Naidoo (Legal) and Mr. M Langa (Chairman). They have promised feedback and I will let you know as soon as I hear anything.

I will use this thread for all feedback.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

BTTB

24-02-2004, 09:12 AM

Can you put up the document pls.

rpm

24-02-2004, 09:23 AM

http://www.myadsl.co.za/ICASA.pdf

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

Tharaxis

25-02-2004, 12:17 AM

I would have added that Telkom is cross-subsidising their ISP charges with the ADSL line rental (their admission that the R600pm is due to bandwidth requirements - an ISP issue, not a Telkom the telephone company issue - points to this).

ICASA has already ruled that Telkom is not allowed to cross-subsidise its products, and getting them on that would have forced them to change their fees (perhaps making it R220 line rental, R600 ISP charge - which would easily allow ISP's to compete in price).

Anyway, it's looking good, I just hope that ICASA doesn't take their obligatory 2 years to come to a decision.

BTTB

25-02-2004, 01:07 PM

This is an interesting point Tharaxis. As we all know that its this large monthly cost that is keeping the ADSL rollout back. If what you said is true then this is a very valid argument that should of been included in the ICASA Complaint. I wonder if RPM is reading this could make comment and if this is a valid argument send it to ICASA as a matter of an Addendum to original complaint.

Also the fact that I dont use Telkom as my ISP makes it more upsetting.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

kaspaas

25-02-2004, 03:49 PM

Forget about addendums etc. - it will just slow down the process.

From what I read, the door is open to ISP's with their major legal eagles to tackle Telkom on just this issue.

Telkom is effectively robbing them of clients (and income) by keeping the ISP part, and the profit available to the ISP, low and the infrastructure costs high.

Busy ordering a new ADSL line - At least this time I was not advised to take a Telscrap modem otherwise there will be no suppurt if things go wrong. There were already changes in Telkom - but you need a magnifying glass to see it [:p]

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

BTTB

25-02-2004, 03:57 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At least this time I was not advised to take a Telscrap modem<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was advised by my PC buddies not to buy Telkom modems. So I settled for a nice Xyxel 650R-31 router and Im so glad as you dont need any software. Its a pleasure to work with this hardware.

Re the Addendum. Sure, OK. I would hate to slow anything down.
Be that as it may. I disagree with you. The R680 or R800 per month is probably the single most reason other than the 3 gig cap why people come to MyADSL.[:D]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

martin

25-02-2004, 04:06 PM

Don't forget port shaping [:)]

BTTB

25-02-2004, 04:34 PM

Oh yes. I forgot. Port Shaping.

One would want to spend your precious 3 gigs any way you wish. Especially seeing you have to pay a arm and a leg for it.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis

25-02-2004, 04:39 PM

While I have no definitive proof that they are doing this, it's pretty likely they are.

Telkom loves to stress that ADSL is merely a "connection medium" (or Mr. White does anyway), yet at the same time justify their prices due to the cost of bandwidth (but as you may realise, bandwidth has nothing to do with connectivity).

Smells distinctly anti-competitive if you ask me.

Gooku

26-02-2004, 02:41 AM

The timing of this complaint is perfect
great work.

Let's keep the pressuer on

rpm

26-02-2004, 03:40 AM

Hi folks

Just a short note to inform you that I have contacted ICASA regarding the progress of the complaint. I will publish the reply as soon as I receive one.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

Karnaugh

26-02-2004, 12:51 PM

Just to keep you guys a bit more up to date ;)

http://www.compcom.co.za/Resources/Media%20Releases/Media%20Releases%202004/Jan/Med%20Rel6%20of%20%2024Feb%202004.asp

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

rpm

26-02-2004, 01:17 PM

Hi guys

I received a reply from ICASA regarding the process. The complaint has been sent to Telkom and we can expect a reply within 14 days.

From ICASA’s Diana Ngoasheng:

“The process has already started. The matter has been taken up with Telkom, the respondent in the matter for their action. There are three scenarios to consider.

1) Telkom might offer to remedy the situation, in which case the matter will the be closed.
2) Telkom might try some kind of delaying tactics not to address the specifics in the complaint in which case the exchange of correspondence takes very long
3) Telkom might not be of assistance.

The procedure internally for the second and third scenario is that if a department realises that an operator is unduly delaying the resolution of a complaint then the case can be escalated to council via the executive management.

Council sets up a committee to look into the matter.

After council has considered all the facts a pre hearing might take place. If there is no agreement reached at the pre hearing then a full hearing may take place wherein council may make a ruling either in favour or against the complainant.

The process out lined above takes a long time.

I hope the above does help to shed some light on the internal process.”

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

Tharaxis

26-02-2004, 09:08 PM

So basically they're saying that if Telkom decides to delay or in any other way ignore the situation you're looking at a long time before there's any actual resolution to the complaint.

Gee... I wonder which route Telkom will take.

mbs

27-02-2004, 01:04 AM

"Though the mills of ICASA grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience THEY stand waiting, with exactness THEY grind all."

(With due apologies to the purists on this forum...[:p])

Gooku

27-02-2004, 03:07 AM

We will put public pressure on ICASA

if they try to delay the process,or be bias in anyway

(a mass action will be taken against ICASA)

Karnaugh

27-02-2004, 07:57 AM

How are *you* going to put pressure on the ICASA? They are cooperating, why not just let them do their job, nothign happens overnight.

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

rpm

07-03-2004, 02:13 PM

Hi folks

It has been 14 days and no reply from ICASA or Telkom. I contacted Dianne Ngoasheng, Jayshree Naidoo (legal matters) and Mr. Langa (Chairman) regarding this issue and will let you know as soon as I hear anything from them. I am fairly certain this is going to be a long battle because of various reasons, but I will do my best to remind them that this issue is not going to blow over. In the case of no-reply from them a media report will follow.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

BTTB

07-03-2004, 03:19 PM

Isnt their a stipulated time response from Telkom to ICASA. A certain time framework guideline that they have to fall within, because if their isnt and we must wait for Telkom to reply to ICASA, it will be a long wait. And furthermore if this is the case then ICASA's procedures are flawed. Their must be a specific timeframe. Ask them if this is the case.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

rpm

07-03-2004, 03:39 PM

Hi BTTB

I did ask them about these issues:

“You have mentioned that delaying tactics might be employed by Telkom. We would like to know if ICASA approves of such tactics. If not, what mechanisms are in place to ensure that these tactics are not effective?

You also mentioned that Telkom might not be of assistance. Please give a detailed description of what will happen in this case.”

I hope these issues get addressed.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

BTTB

07-03-2004, 10:07 PM

Hi RPM,
Thanks for the reply. Im glad you are on top of things.
I just hope this procedure isnt too long.
Keep up the good work.

BTTB

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

rpm

08-03-2004, 02:43 PM

Hi folks

I received an email back from ICASA regarding our complaint:

“We acknowledge receipt of your e-mail and noted it contents with thanks. The matter is receiving Council's urgent attention. The Authority will revert back to you by Wednesday 10 March 2004.

on behalf of the Acting Chairperson, Ms Mamodupi Mohlala”

I will let you know as soon as I hear more. They have asked me to hold back on the media until I receive feedback from them, and I feel this is fair since they do respond to all my emails and other correspondence.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

ASF

08-03-2004, 03:44 PM

I agree on the media hold off. After all they have commited to a response by Wednesday this week.

Although ICASA have proven to be largely ineffectual I do feel that it is only fair to give them gap to do their jobs and come back to us.

On the flipside though I don really expect them to come back with a very positive response to us - but let's see...

VQuest

08-03-2004, 08:21 PM

Excellent news RPM, I look forward to hearing what they have to say.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

rpm

09-03-2004, 05:27 PM

Hi folks

I have received feedback from ICASA regarding our ICASA Complaint. I must say that they have been effective up to this stage and that I feel that something good might come from this complaint.

__________________________________________________ _____

“RE: MYADSL/ TELKOM

We refer to your e-mail that was forwarded to ourselves dated 19 February 2004. We e confirm that this matter has been addressed by the Authority at different levels and we are using every endeavor to find a speedy and mutually beneficial resolution of this matter.
We wish to inform you that up to now we have not received a response to our letter from on your matter from Telkom.

The matter has now been escalated within the highest office of Telkom, i.e. the Chief Executive Officer. We have given Telkom a deadline of midday tomorrow by which to respond. Our letter to Telkom is attached for ease of reference

We fully understand your frustration but wish for you to note that taking it to the press will only have the effect of polarizing the parties rather than resolving the matter. We therefore implore you let this matter take it course.

We shall revert to you as soon we receive the awaited feedback.

Yours Sincerely

Diane Ngoasheng
Senior Manager Consumer Affairs”

__________________________________________________ ____

Your comments are welcome as always and your voice will ultimately determine our decisions regarding this complaint.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

caroper

09-03-2004, 10:13 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rpm
 Our letter to Telkom is attached for ease of reference
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi RPM,

Is the letter restricted due to the sensitivity of the complaint or can it be published on this site?

Well done,
Cheers
Chris

rpm

09-03-2004, 11:47 PM

Hi CARoper

I did not find the attachment with the email but I have requested a copy. I think Dianne might have forgotten to attach it. I will publish it as soon as I receive a copy.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

VQuest

10-03-2004, 09:01 AM

Things are looking up. But whether Telkom does actually respond is another story.

Thanks RPM!

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

rpm

10-03-2004, 12:44 PM

Hi CARoper

I have received the signed letter from ICASA (by fax), but unfortunately the letter was indeed for confidential use alone and I may not distribute this letter at all. I can however let you know that ICASA is addressed to Telkom CEO Sizwe Nxasana, and that ICASA is not beating around the bush regarding this correspondence. I will let you know as soon as I hear anything more (there was a midday deadline for Telkom and I therefore expect feedback fairly soon).

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

microfast

10-03-2004, 01:22 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rpm
Hi CARoper

....but unfortunately the letter was indeed for confidential use alone and I may not distribute this letter at all....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks rpm, let's hope something develops from this.

I suggest that the complaint was addressed from myadsl members and if you were to distribute the letter to myadsl members, this would not be a breach of confidentiality.

caroper

10-03-2004, 04:30 PM

Thanks RPM,

Although the complaint is from the group, we have effectively declared RPM as our spokesperson. And, as such, if ICASA would rather have him keep things under wraps for now, then I for one am happy to trust him to handle things in the best interests of all members.

Lets not do anything to frustrate ICASA, after all they are on our side this time.

Cheers
Chris

SK33T

10-03-2004, 05:59 PM

Well done RPM
Lets just hope that something benificial comes from this and maybe a starting point to get South Africa on the technology map where it should be.

Thanks for youre hard work.

rpm

11-03-2004, 08:26 AM

Hi Microfast

This was indeed the case (the complaint is by MyADSL), but the letter was not addressed to the plaintiff but to me personally. I can inform you that Telkom has promised to give feedback by 15:00 yesterday, but I have not heard anything from Dianne yet (I emailed her just after 15:00). They might be asking for some extra time as ICASA has requested of them to supply a point by point reply (excellent!) to our complaint. It is refreshing to see that ICASA will not let this one slip and is maintaining high regulation standards.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

kaspaas

11-03-2004, 09:34 AM

Thanks RPM,

seems as if ICASA wants to prove it is a leopard with teeth which can affirm a fair deal for all in an effective monopolistic market.

At least they got Telkom to react in some way or other.

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

rpm

11-03-2004, 11:19 AM

Hi folks

I have just contacted Dianne from ICASA and she could not confirm at the time whether Telkom responded to the complaint or not. She has promised to get back to me before the end of the day. I will post the information as soon as I receive it.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

microfast

11-03-2004, 01:00 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rpm
Hi Microfast,

This was indeed the case (the complaint is by MyADSL), but the letter was not addressed to the plaintiff but to me personally. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi rpm,

Your best judgement is not in question and I agree with caroper that
prudence is the better option, for now.

The fact that ICASA did not respond to the plaintiff, is probably not important, for now.

Once again thanks for everything you do.

rpm

11-03-2004, 04:41 PM

Hi folks

I have just contacted ICASA and can confirm that Telkom did not meet the second and third deadlines as they have promised. The matter will now go to the ICASA council. This process might take a long time (months or even longer). At this stage ICASA’s Dianne Ngoasheng has also informed me that there is very little they can do if Telkom decides not to honour the Memorandum of Understanding they have signed in November 2003. Although this matter was escalated to Mr. Sizwe Nxasana, CEO of Telkom, Telkom obviously decided that is not important enough for them to honour their agreement with ICASA. Let us hope ICASA will not take this blatant disrespect lying down.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

BTTB

11-03-2004, 05:30 PM

Oh Well, what can I say. What else could we expect from Telkom. Im very dissapointed. [V]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis

11-03-2004, 05:35 PM

Hah, that's laughable, a regulator that is unable to regulate the entity they are supposed to be regulating if the entity decides they don't want to play.

What kind of ridiculous regulatory body is this, they should have the power to do what must be done, not just sit back and say "oh well, we can now do very little".

VQuest

11-03-2004, 08:22 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tharaxis
 Hah, that's laughable, a regulator that is unable to regulate the entity they are supposed to be regulating if the entity decides they don't want to play.

What kind of ridiculous regulatory body is this, they should have the power to do what must be done, not just sit back and say "oh well, we can now do very little".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed, it's totally ridiculous. And this is exactly why Telkom has not bothered to reply. It's like they believe they are above the law.

RPM, do you still intend on holding back from the media, as ICASA requested? I was all for holding back but as far as I can see, it's just one big delay tactic by Telkom.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

rpm

11-03-2004, 08:52 PM

Hi VQuest

I am busy with the media release as we speak. The fact that Telkom and Mr. Nxasana (Telkom CEO) has not honoured their agreement with ICASA is quite newsworthy. I think even ICASA is quite irritated with Telkom, and to quote the acting ICASA chairperson in her letter to Mr. Nxasana: “Telkom is a listed company and it is time it acts like one”.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

onionpeel

11-03-2004, 09:11 PM

Telkom's armour holds firm, spotless & polished.[8]

Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future.

BTTB

11-03-2004, 11:39 PM

I know this is not relevant to the complaint, but maybe it is. Mad posted a thread about getting Telkom Struck off the PSA role. Well perhaps this organization can send their Chairman, Mr Tim Modise a nice letter explaining our situation and although we have followed the normal channels, we are met once again with a brick wall by Telkom their founding sponsor. RPM mentioned " I think even ICASA is quite irritated with Telkom, and to quote the acting ICASA chairperson in her letter to Mr. Nxasana: “Telkom is a listed company and it is time it acts like one” "
The ICASA chairman hit the nail on the button with this point. It is extremely unprofessional from a listed company and deserves the attention not only from ICASA, but also the likes of PSA and other institutions. Telkom as a PSA Company should be setting an example in the market place. Quite frankly they are making a mockery of the PSA’s criteria. When I see that logo, I’m sorry, but all I can think of is Telkom.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

VQuest

12-03-2004, 09:58 AM

BTTB, I agree with you. If Telkom doesn't respect their customers enough to keep their promises then they don't look like very proudly South African to me. Maybe we should explore this avenue some more.

RPM, what do you think?

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

BTTB

12-03-2004, 10:30 AM

Tim Modise has been sent an Email, but anything can be lost in Cyber Space.
I think a formal letter from MyADSl can be sent to their Cape Town offices (021-4220511) and CC Telkom and CC Icasa and whoever else we can think of. From my experience with Council Matters, you send everyone a copy so that noone can point fingers later and say they never knew anything about it. I have fax numbers for the Mayors Office, Public Protector and the Premier. But they are probably too busy canvassing for the next elections. As I think perhaps a political alternative to our problem might show better results.
I can discuss this matter futher later, but I must go do some work for a change.

Later,
BTTB

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

lewstherin

12-03-2004, 04:56 PM

This whole deal is getting very interesting...RPM keep up the good work!

Is it possible for you to post the media release here for us to peruse, before making it "public"? Also who are you planning to release the news to?

Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the SA consumer needs to make it happen

rpm

12-03-2004, 05:24 PM

Hi folks

I have heard from ICASA again, and they provided me with a response from Telkom today. I will publish the response as soon as it is converted to electronic format, but it contains nothing new. The same old unsound excuses. We have the choice to take the matter further and I can strongly suggest that we take this route. ICASA is supporting our complaint and was effective up to this stage. The response from Dianne Ngoasheng from ICASA:

“I hope you have received the fax that I sent by now. You will receive the rest of the document by post sometime during the week. As suggested in the fax cover we would like to address the ADSL service as a whole and would very much appreciate your input on the matter. You can do by email I want to suggest that council calls for a public hearing on the matter so the issue can be highlighted.

The complaint can only be escalated on the week of 22 March 2004 as agreed.”

Your comments will be appreciated.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

VQuest

12-03-2004, 05:54 PM

I look forward to reading the response.

We must absolutely take this matter further. The reason we approached ICASA is for that exact reason. We've exhausted all the options dealing directly with Telkom, as it simply falls on deaf ears. We have a problem and we now need ICASA to take a stand.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

Perdition

12-03-2004, 08:02 PM

It looks very promising though I hope it is not just smoke and mirrors i.e. delay tactics in sheep's clothing. Telkom could still be twisting arms behind the scenes... only time will tell.

Tharaxis

12-03-2004, 10:56 PM

I would most certainly like to say a few things in that public hearing... like *cough* cross-subsidisation.

caroper

12-03-2004, 11:50 PM

This is great news,

A public hearing, Telkom can’t duck that one.

If Mr White says he is ready for an audit then this is the chance we have been looking for. I think that once the dates are announced we will get a slew of users, businesses and ISP's coming forward with questions, and the press will gladly cover the event, most likely on the front page.

Let's feed Ms. Ngoasheng with all the info she needs and give her all the space that she requests i.e. hold of from the press or politicians for now.

I think we have found a friend at last.

Cheers
Chris

rpm

13-03-2004, 01:02 AM

Hi folks

I have just posted Telkom’s reply to the ICASA complaint in our news section. Please give your views on this reply in this thread. I will compile these views and forward this to ICASA as part of MyADSL’s reply. There are obviously many points that need to be addressed in this Telkom reply, and your help will be of great value.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

sybawoods

13-03-2004, 02:35 AM

Thanks rpm

While Telkom's response is as un-inspiring and almost dismissive (as expected), I really think the notion of a public hearing is a good one. I think it is something what we *must* pursue as an organised community, to make our voices heard. Please keep us posted of venue, dates etc. I for one am passionate enough about this to take a day's leave if necessary, and appeal to everyone else who has muttered a complaint about ADSL to take the opportunity to stand up and be counted. Well done, rpm on keeping the embers burning. [8D]

Mean_Monster

13-03-2004, 06:36 AM

This part to me is most interesting:

"We are certain that you will agree that Telkom does not dictate the technology of the product, we simply sell the product as designed." 

ADSL was designed to run at 512K max locally, lets take the extremely expensive international bandwith out of the equation. So therefore the American and European Telecoms companies must be geniuses in their own right. These guys can make it run faster than 3 Meg. Amazing hey wonder how the hell the do that seeing the technology was only designed the way Telkom is using it.

On the aspect of the costs of line rental, we advise that the additional rent over and above the internet costs, covers the ADSL port cards that make it possible to use the higher frequency in the network.

So how much do you guys think a card like this can cost? Would it be possible to get pricing like this? Point being if it costs lets say roughly R 2000 per ADSL port, basically per user. The rate they charging they paying that back in 3.5 months. I am no financial guru but surely expecting a return on investment in 3 months is not a normal trend. Keep in mind no other upgrade was done to your home.

Telkom currently has approximately 16 000 customers and according to research undertaken by Markinor existing customers scored 88% on overall satisfaction with the service.

Question 1: How many people completed the survey 44 positives answers out of 50 people also gives 88%

Question 2: Why does Telkom not e-mail all there ADSL users and ask them to go fill in a reply on a 3rd party website or even ICASA's website and rate the service.

On the issue of the allegedly high cost of the service, we must point out that the fact that we are situated in South Africa means that international bandwidth is purchased at a premium and it not unlimited.

Well guess what. I found some 120 Gb/s line lying around they could use. So why would Telkom spearhead this project if they can't make use of it? Seems they wasting money then.

http://www.safe-sat3.co.za/HomePage/SAT3_WASC_SAFE_Home.asp
http://www.telkom.co.za/products/afrolique.jsp

Point being they obviously helped paying for it so they surely own part of the cable. Let's say 10% (maybe getting real figures a good idea) that is 12Gb/s. I doubt we are even using near that.

Just my 2cents

Myrrdin

13-03-2004, 08:00 AM

Interesting.

I just have one question. I pay my ISP charges as rental to a modem that is utilized by many people and thus the cost is covered by all who use the service. If however the port card I am paying for is exclusively mine as Telkom seems to suggest then surely at the end of a determinable period that object would become my property just as the modem they installed at my house becomes my property. If I then move Telkom would have to move MY port card with me or start paying me for the use of my property in their exchange.

But then we knew Telkom was just going to blow a lot of smoke around this complaint.

Swonk taht eno ylno eht si nidrrym.

kaspaas

13-03-2004, 09:34 AM

It would be interesting to do an analysis of what they did not answer:

The following comes to my mind:

The lack of an acceptable SLA

The price comparisons with other countries.

How can others supply superspeed ADSL at lower rates than Telkom is charging - not for bandwidth - but merely for the equipment to allow the higher frequencies. Surely Japan, The UK, and USA use similar equipment as Telkom.

The line rental cost excludes bandwidth costs - it should be for hardware alone.

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

Andre

13-03-2004, 10:43 AM

The exact hardware costs at the exchange would be interesting to pursue. Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall. If Telkom is making you pay for your port, how long before it's been paid for? Obviously Telkom expects you to keep paying for as long as you have DSL.

First thing to find out is what make and model of DSLAM they use.

If anyone has the opportunity to speak with a Telkom tech, they will usually readily part with this information.

microfast

13-03-2004, 10:54 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rpm

Please give your views on this reply in this thread.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi rpm,

Round One to Myadsl ....... let's be properly prepared.

Please could you ask ICASA to provide us with all the Acts, laws,
regulations which make up Telkom's agreements and obligations.

Please could you ask ICASA to provide us with all Telkom data
to which we would be entitled in order to substantiate our case
and respond to their latest letter.

ADSL is a very cheap technology for any telco - this is why
it is so cheap elsewhere.

We must prove that Telkom has not provided a "best effort"
We must prove that Telkom has provided a "maximum profit effort"
and has not acted in accordance with its obligations as a carrier.

Once we have all the facts it ought to be easy to prove that
Telkom has acted in an anti-competitive manner and we can then
submit a claim against Telkom on behalf of all ADSL users who
choose to participate.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 11:26 AM

What constitutes a Formal as opposed to a Consumer Complaint in ICASA's eyes. This needs clarity from ICASA as all the trouble that MyADSL has taken to sort out this matters, hardly deserves to be added to the pile of consumer complaints. We are an organization and we deserve to treated as one. Do they need a constitution etc?

Telkoms answer is vague and generalizing and not in point form which I believe is what ICASA requested from them.

Points in question.
1. Line Rental. Telkom admits again the high cost of bandwidth on this topic. Surely this is an ISP cost and not a line rental cost. This point alone is going to be Telkoms downfall in our complaint as this is cross subsidisation. Considering this, what is the cost then that the ISP charges then? What is that for? Surely it’s for the bandwidth too. So which is it then? An ISP cost or a line rental cost as I am confused. Consider the line rental of ISDN as opposed to ADSL. Surely the costs cannot be so different. We are still using the same wire that ISDN or 56K is using. Only the exchange has a DSLAM on which this is joined. Does the DSLAM cost that much then?
A lot of unanswered questions on this topic.

2. No direct reply to the 3 gig issue. This and point 1 are the 2 main answers all ADSL users want, over and above port shaping and few others.

3. Modem Cost. This is another point that is going to catch Telkom out. Modems are now free apparently. Telkom has to be cross subsidising the Line rental to pay for this. Surely the customers who paid for modems should get a refund and the customers that bought their own modems should get a discount on line rental. I say line rental as I can only assume once again that this is what must be paying for the modems. No business gives anything away for free. It's just a marketing ploy. The cost is spread out over a few months from the line rental. It’s the only logical explanation. Telkom may not cross subsidise. This is a very unfair scenario, not only for the ADSL user who has a modem, but also for the suppliers of these modems.

4. The ADSL service. Telkom should furnish ICASA the Markinor's survey before the hearing so that it can be discussed free and openly. ICASA should request this survey from Telkom and ICASA should CC MyADSL a copy. As Telkom are basically calling us liars. So we need to defend ourselves properly on this point. IMO, I think Markinor gave Telkom the answers they wanted. Also keeping their client happy. BTW also another PSA company.
Anyway as any market survey is flawed as if they are to be true they need to take a bigger block of consumers. Taking 8% of 100% and deducing that 88% of the 100% are happy is hardly a democratic way of or statistically correct way of assuming anything. Also as Telkom stated that their are currently 16000 ADSL customers which is a 60% increase since it was 10000 before, so the survey once again is flawed. As the customer base has increased by 60% that means that the statistics supplied cover less than 8% of the base, but actually closer to 5% or 4%. So saying that 5 out of every 100 people have been interviewed makes a market research valid is ridiculous. Imagine if our politics were run like that. 5% can speak for the other 95%. Very flawed statistics IMO.
Another interesting way of looking at this survey is from the amount of members MyADSL has. I believe it to be about 1300 and growing. This represents about 12 to 13% of the original figure of 10000. So if Markinor interviewed 880 odd people in their survey, which is also less than the amount of people who are members of MyADSL. They deduced from their survey that 88% of the market was "happy", then that leaves about 12% that are not. That means that everyone that has a gripe about ADSL has somehow all “miracly” joined MyADSL. Well that would be impossible for everyone in SA to know that even MyADSL even exists and even to have the inclination to even want to join MyADSL. What I know most SA consumers is they couldn’t be bothered or care. And I’m sure Markinor has some surveys that prove this point clearly.
Were any experts interviewed?
What were the questions asked and the multiple choice answer provided for each question?
Who provided the questions?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think it is 256.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis

13-03-2004, 11:43 AM

You'll notice that yet again Telkom cited bandwidth costs as a reason for charging such high rental rates.

They're shooting themselves in the foot, BANDWIDTH IS NOT TELKOM THE TELEPHONE COMPANY'S REALM, THAT IS THE REALM OF SAIX, A SEPARATE ENTITY.

This is yet again a blatant admission of cross-subsidisation, if they weren't cross-subsidising there should be a switch in the costs involved, low line rental (because honestly, the ports CANNOT cost as much as Telkom wishes for you to believe - the cards may be expensive, but when they are capable of holding upwards of 256 connections they end up paying for themselves), and higher ISP rates. ISP's are where the competition should be, as it stands, no ISP is capable of competing due to the backwards pricing structure Telkom employes. If on the other hand Telkom was charging "the right way around", and ISP rates were R680 you would see a lot more competition, and likely a price war, equating to less overall cost in broadband connectivity.

Karnaugh

13-03-2004, 11:45 AM

I belive Telkom have 1024 port DSLAMS

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

Tharaxis

13-03-2004, 11:51 AM

Also, the Markinor survey was supposedly only involving 200 people, which is ridiculous.

Out of 16000 users they took 1.25% of the total (which they hand picked), found that 88% of them were happy with the service (no shock there), and then states that the majority are happy. If they wanted a relatively accurate picture, they should have at LEAST taken 25-50% of the users and done the survey, AND it should not have been Telkom deciding who gets chosen. They can easily see who are under and who are over users of the service, and therefore those who experience capped speeds frequenly, and those who don't. It's all to do with profiling, and with those profiles Telkom can manipulate any requests for information.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 12:03 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I belive Telkom have 1024 port DSLAMS <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Possibly that is correct. I'm not sure.
The reason I say 256 is, when the techie from telkom installed ADSL he clearly told me in August last year that I was user number 5 out of 256. What that meant Im not sure, but I assumed he must of meant the number of ports. [:)]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 12:05 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Also, the Markinor survey was supposedly only involving 200 people, which is ridiculous.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Can someone clarify this point, as I remember reading a figure of 800 odd. 880 comes to mind. If this is true I must adjust my statistics.
[:D]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis

13-03-2004, 12:10 PM

OK, here's more, I did some searching on ADSL Line Card Prices (the cards that hold the numerous ports), and this is what I came across:

http://isp-planet.com/cplanet/tech/001102coppermtn.htm

According to this, you're looking at a 24 port line card (admittedly ADSL over ISDN, not ADSL over POTS) for $12995 - NOTE: this price was back in 2001, it's likely a lot lower now - which is about $541 per port (which in Rands comes to R3662.57), so for those of us who have had ADSL for more than 4 months, we've effectively paid off our ports, anything else is now pure profit.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 12:31 PM

Type this into a google search and see the amount of Section 100 complaints their are.
icasa section 100 complaint
Just read a few like this one for example. http://www.dispatch.co.za/2002/07/11/business/ATAT.HTM

Im not sure what to make of a Section 100 complaint, but MyADSL has hardly the ability to take telkom to court even after a successful campaign. As this is what seems to be the norm if you want any joy out of telkom. Telkom behave like Advocates and leave every last issue to the last second before resolving anything. Hoping that you will either run out of steam or money. Also at the same time enjoying the monopoly status ad hoc.
I would suggest a very tactful approach to ICASA in this regard as we either need legal aid supplied by the public protector, ICASA or the state or continue to keep challenging telkom from a consumers point of view. The latter will be cheaper and might have a better result especially if the media is behind you. Litigation, IMO is not the way to go. Telkom will use our money to pay for their legal team to block us at every turn.

If the legal route is needed, considering that Telkom regards us as "a consumer complaint", we should ask the Public Protector to intervene at that stage if we have no resolution. RPM, I have all the details for the Public Protector. An advocate will contact you and discuss the situation with you. Remember that the Public Protector only intervenes if no resolution can be achieved through normal channels. And they way I see Telkom, that does not fit into their vocabulary.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Tharaxis

13-03-2004, 12:40 PM

Here's more, I was able to find a Zyxel price list on the Internet (Google!!!), listing the prices for various xDSL Solutions, here are the pertinent line card prices (in USD), and are dated September 2003:

ALC-1024 24 ports Annex A ADSL line card. 2,300.00
SLC-1024 24 ports G.SHDSL line card. 4,130.00
VLC-1012 12 ports VDSL line card. 1,610.00

Now, while these cards are unlikely what Telkom uses, one can expect these to be relatively indicative of current market prices, so lets review (Prices are calculated at R6.77 to the USD):

ALC-1024:

24 ports @ $2300 equates to $95.83 per port, or R648.77 per port.

SLC-1024:

24 ports @ $4130 equates to $172.08 per port, or R1164.98 per port.

VLC-1012:

12 ports @ $1610 equates to $134.17 per port, or R894.79 per port.

Even at the most expensive option (which Telkom unlikely uses, they probably use a standard Annex A ADSL Card), Telkom makes their money back in just over a month, from any one user. One can also subsequently say that they likely pay off the card in just over a month as well, as the cards are likely full.

Even if Telkom was going for a high quality solution (HAHAHAHAHA), they could not be paying more than double the amount. Which just means their ROI of 1.5 months becomes a ROI of 3 months... not a big difference [:p]

BTTB

13-03-2004, 12:50 PM

Im sure ICASA will determine that Telkom is cross subsidising line rentals with modems, ISP charges and general profiteering. But will we be able to get our money back or at least get a reduction in prices. This is one of the questions on everyones lips.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

kaspaas

13-03-2004, 02:58 PM

Evaluation of Telkom response

Please note: I'm suggesting that we follow another route as well:

As consumergroup we can request ICASA to rule that ISP's must publish on their websites key data that would allow consumers to make informed decisions and enforce their rights for all types of Internet connetivity offered. Such requests can be handled by the Board of ICASA (in consultation with ISP's and consumer groups) and could completed in months rather than years. It essential such groups have to agree on which data. I believe that the best approach would be to initially request the minimum to which we agree easily. The wider the request, the more red herrings can be chucked at it and the longer the process is going to take.

1. Cost of modems

Telkom does not explain why their modems are much more expensive than competive models.

I reckon this point is actually one that could be dropped - the others are stronger

2. Cost of line rental

Telkom confuses the issue of line rental (ie Infrastructural costs - copper, cards, ports etc) with that of bandwidth costs.

Telkom does not explain why the cost of "infrastructure" is the bulk of the cost.

Telkom does not explain how ADSL suppliers in other countries could supply much higher speed infrastructure at lower costs to clients.

MyADSL:
The line rental for ADSL is very high and unnecessary....

Telkom answers that the cost of bandwidth is high...

Telkom fails to provide examples of other International Telco's who charge infrastructure fees and their rates. (eg the German Telco)

MyADSL:
ADSL Business users can see no reason why the additional line rental for businesses should be higher than that for home users. The service is, after all, exactly the same.

Telkom:
No answer.

MyADSL:
The reason for the high cost ADSL in South Africa was blamed partly on
the high cost of International bandwidth. This was the case when the
Rand was still over R 10-00 to the dollar. The strengthening of the Rand should have provided us with either a decrease in cost or increase in service, but this was not the case.

Telkom:
No answer.

MyADSL:
The ADSL service was initially sold as “Superfast Internet Access”, which mislead many people to believe that the service is comparable to ADSL in other countries....

Telkom introduced traffic shaping (port prioritization) without notifying users. We feel that users should be consulted and notified about changes in the service that will influence the functionality of the service....

Telkom:
The Markinor survey is offered as answer. We know that Telkom offered the results, but refuses to make it known.

Could ICASA request Telkom to substantiate the claims by handing over the complete Markinor report?

MyADSL:

... and we believe ICASA should enforce this standard to safeguard users against abuse from Telkom.

Possibly we should formally request ICASA to rule that all ISP's offering internet connectivity to the general public must publish on their websites the following data:

Connection type Speed Contention ratio local Contention ratio International
eg
Dial-Up 56kbits/s 20:1 or better 50:1 or better
ADSL (uncapped) 512/256kbits/s 20:1 or better 100:1 or better
ADSL (Capped) 512/256kbits/s 20:1 or better 300:1 or better
ISDN 64kb/s ...........
etc

Such information will enable consumers to compare the services offered by ISP's in a meaningful way when deciding which ISP to use.

Please note this is a request to ICASA from a group of concerned Internet consumers/users which should be applicable to all ISP's eg M-Web, Tiscali, @lantic and Telkom.

As this will be a request for minimum data, it leaves the door open for ISP's to provide better data as part of their marketing drive. (eg: Our International link is 99% of the time less than 80% busy)

MyADSL:
ADSL customers can, for example, not even alter their own passwords if
they detect fraud or misuse of their account.

Telkom:
No answer.

Myadsl:
is also impossible for users to detect account abuse, which has been proven to happen with the ADSL service.

Telkom:
No response.

MyADSL:
...international Internet usage becomes nearly impossible when capped.

Telkom:
No response.

Please note, that this issue could be cleared if the suggested request above on the publciation of contention ratios is enforced by ICASA.

MyADSL:
and we feel that only international traffic should count towards the cap.

Telkom:
No explantion why International and Local traffic can't be separated when measuring bandwidth.

MyADSL:
we feel that there should be a well structured service agreement in place between Telkom and the user. This service agreement should include issues like contention ratios, service availability and support.

Telkom:
"Best Effort Service" excuse.

Again I believe we should request ICASA to rule that all ISP's must publish a Service Level Agreement for all services offered.

At least the following has to be stated on the web:

Availability of support helpline
Escalation procedure if support is experienced to be insufficient

Availability of service (eg no more than 10 hours downtime per month; max 2 hours per incident)

Penalties when failing to meet these standards

ICASA could require minimum standards on this before issuing a license for a service.

I'm sure others could add more to this.

Another note: Telkom offers no explantion why they are offering only a bottomline service compared to the rest of the world.

Thanks RPM!

Your efforts on our behalf is starting to get somewhere

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 03:14 PM

Telkoms reply to MyADSL was late and incomplete to say the least.
A last minute "best effort service" to shut ICASA up.
MyADSL has spent several months compiling the complaint and it appears if Telkom took an afternoon as it wasn’t very well though out and certainly doesn’t come near answering the complaint.
ICASA should demand a point by point reply from Telkom and set down another deadline. Perhaps they should specify the questions they want Telkom to answer as Telkom is dodging the content in the complaint.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Peapod

13-03-2004, 04:24 PM

Dont faint - its the illusive one.
I have been keeping my eye on your excellent progress - thanks RPM for keeping me in the loop.
DO NOT LET UP ON PRESSURE. A legal tactic that works brilliantly is to literally flood both Telkom and ICASA with documentation supporting each and evey claim you have. This is both independently as individual customers and as a forum. Drag data off the net, argue each and every point with solid backup.
Make these complaints through formal channels. They have to respond to each and every one, and where they dont, escalate it higher up the chain each time.
Sooner or later, either Telkom or ICASA's acountants, preferably both, will realise their budget is being anhialated by repetitive and unsolved complaints. Someone up the ladder at board level will make a decision to act and act they will to protect the P&L.
Either way they go, the press will have a field day.
For Telkom, this is BAD NEWS in light of the SNO developments quietly taking place in the background.
I am still plugging away at Parliamentary level and will revert as soon as there is anything to report. If you think its slow going with Telkom and ICASA, try the ministry for communications.
All strength to you and keep up the amazing effort. We are all winning, slowly but surely.
All the best
Peapod

awangus

13-03-2004, 04:55 PM

Point 1.1 If that is the case Telkom should stop "manufacturing" (i do not believe they do) local MODEMS as imported ROUTERS are cheaper and have better warranty.

Point 1.2 The cost of line rentals is just an excuse that a hugely inefficient organization like Tekom uses all the time. There is one way Telkom can prove the point: remove the monopoly and allow other operators to compete on a 1:1 basis with Telkom. I find it amazing that Telkom is still using the tactics of the past to bulsh*t everybody in this country. Telkom -remove your stranglehold on this country and let it be free of your repressive monopoly. That is the only way costs will be reduced and the country (ie the users) will benefit. I do not believe you for one second.

Point 2. So what you are saying is that 22% of the 16000 users know how to look for and evaluate your trashy ADSL performance? I would say that is an excellent response to confirn the point that ADSL service is sub standard, even against ISDN. International companies would hang their heads in shame if 5% responded that the service was bad. Shame on you Telkom. Do you think that all of us are such idiots. Yes, you must think so and that is why you treat us as such.

The facts are you are dead scared of competition and are just milking the country for as long as you can, regardless of the cost to the nation. An example is your continued promotion of the outdated ISDN service to all the ignorants out there who do not realise that the bill is going to kill them.

Your reputation as a monopolistic and repressive service is keeping $billions from entering the country and that is a fact that you and the government cannot hide, no matter what rubbish you tell us.

This debate and argument will only end the day the government has the guts to free the people from your clutches.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 04:59 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">22% of the 16000<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How did you get these figures?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Karnaugh

13-03-2004, 05:09 PM

http://www.karnaugh.za.net/techblog/archives/000004.html

Writing up a reply to send to ICASA about Telkom's poor response. Your comments, I'd like to get in everything people are concerned about.

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

awangus

13-03-2004, 05:29 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">22% of the 16000<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How did you get these figures?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ag man, I was so mad to read the Telkom response I did not read that right. Just saw red.

Re: prices of hardware. Telkom buy all their hardware direct from the factories overseas at discounted prices. So do not take local prices.

awangus

13-03-2004, 05:33 PM

Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.

paarlberg

13-03-2004, 05:37 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andre
 The exact hardware costs at the exchange would be interesting to pursue. Each card in the DSLAM contains a number of ports. How many I don't recall. If Telkom is making you pay for your port, how long before it's been paid for? Obviously Telkom expects you to keep paying for as long as you have DSL.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You can buy a Lucent Stinger DSLAM that supports 300+ ADSL/SDSL/IDSL subscribers for $5000-$10000 depending on the model. All they have to do is provision the line and cross connect.. Of course they have to configure the Equipment, but there are management utilities that can simplify the configuration tasks.. Not rocket science..

BTTB

13-03-2004, 06:08 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ag man, I was so mad to read the Telkom response I did not read that right. Just saw red.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ok. A common feeling around these threads. [:)]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 06:12 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And if you do see a Yes, dont throw Mr White away who could be skulking around on these threads.[:D][:D]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Perdition

13-03-2004, 06:21 PM

Glad to see you are still with us and fighting the good fight Peapod [:)]

Telkom's reply is nothing more than a brush off. They either firmly believe that ICASA (and everyone) will buy it or they simply do not care and merely fulfilling the bare minimum of requirements for a response.

I have nothing else to add to what everyone else has said but just voicing my vote of disapproval. I truly hope that continued pressure will eventually yield results.

BTTB

13-03-2004, 06:27 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">merely fulfilling the bare minimum of requirements for a response.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Karnaugh

13-03-2004, 07:28 PM

No comments so far?

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

PierreLeRiche

13-03-2004, 11:22 PM

Telkom's response is in line with what I expected. It would have been very irresponsible of their spokesman to acknowledge any form of guilt, since that would open them up to litigation from not only their clients but also their shareholders.

Realise that Telkom is a public company and its first responsibility is towards their shareholders, so if they can wring every last cent out of you and me then they're doing their job well. Realise also that a large chunk of Telkom is owned by offshore companies: Do you really think they care more about the average South-African than their return on investment?

I think the real villian in this fairytale is the SA government - they have let us down in a big way. They have allowed Telkom to abuse its position by (a) not acting fast enough by putting competition in place and (b) by not taking better charge of the tariffs Telkom is allowed to extort.

If you want to be angry you have to be angry at the government - Telkom is doing exactly what 99.99% of companies would do in a similar situation.

One claim we can make is that Telkom should be struck off the "Proudly SA" list. They have no right to be on it.

BTTB

14-03-2004, 12:40 AM

Good post PierreLeRiche. [:)]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

EricsON

14-03-2004, 12:44 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Andre
First thing to find out is what make and model of DSLAM they use.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

AFAIK from the original press releases, they are running equipment from Marconi.

EricsON

14-03-2004, 12:49 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I belive Telkom have 1024 port DSLAMS <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Possibly that is correct. I'm not sure.
The reason I say 256 is, when the techie from telkom installed ADSL he clearly told me in August last year that I was user number 5 out of 256. What that meant Im not sure, but I assumed he must of meant the number of ports. [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have spoken to some of the Telkom techies in the past when my line was installed. They stated that the DSLAMs were rolled out based on various aspects - size of the exchange, market potential of the area, etc.

From this I'd say each exchange would be rolled out with a limited capacity so as to reduce the initial capital expenditure and that they would be later upgraded based on user-demand.

BTTB

14-03-2004, 12:50 AM

This one perhaps.
http://www.marconi.com/html/products/accesshub.htm

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

EricsON

14-03-2004, 12:59 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 This one perhaps.
http://www.marconi.com/html/products/accesshub.htm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes that is the one, as identified by the press release http://www.marconi.com/html/news/marconiandtelkomtakebroadbandtothehome.htm.

Karnaugh

14-03-2004, 01:17 AM

http://www.marconi.com/html/news/marconiandtelkombringbroadbandtothepresidentscup.h tm

Of course the DSLAMs are modular. I was not reffering to the single card.

"Up to 20 universal card slots per node in single-shelf configuration, with up to 2 shelves per rack.
Up to 32 port capacity per slot"

Conviniently they feature traffic shaping and "Extensive traffic policing".

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

ezanolin

14-03-2004, 03:04 AM

I recently told a german friend of mine what I pay for ADSL .. He could not believe the price or the lower than accepted speed.. Then I told him how much I pay for a 128K local - 64K international diginet link (R7000 to IS and R2800 to telkom), he was dumbstruck.. Says they had similar things there a long time ago, they even had the "not allowed to transmit across a road" law. But thats all gone now. At the end of the day all ISP's have to pay telkom for connectivity.. from us to them, and from them out.

Lets get this monopoly out into the light, and then maybe the right people will see how its killing innovation and growth in the IT sector.

To Telkom: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider the benifit to the economy and employment fates if the IT industry was able to create and iplement jobs based on new solutions that are at this stage just not viable given your current solutions and pricing schedules.

To our Election candidates: Where do you stand on these matters. Are you even aware of them? Do you know how much this is killing the country?

Its keeping us backwards. and Investors do see this.

Juice

14-03-2004, 07:04 AM

I can accept Telkom's reasoning that the cost of international bandwidth to a small, out-of-the-way country like South Africa is higher than the norm and directly influences the cost of the ADSL service. However, it would be useful to see just how much international traffic is generated through ADSL. I would rather see a cheaper ADSL product where international bandwidth is choked, or paid for separately, since most of my internet interests are local. I may be the exception to the rule, but considering that since the advent of ADSL several large repositories have sprung up in South Africa, I think it is quite possible to still access international content without having to do it internationally.

The thing that has always annoyed me is that Telkom is unable to distinguish between local and international traffic. They cap you on 3Gb of TOTAL traffic with a complete disregard for the composition of that traffic in the name of saving international bandwidth. If I get capped because 10% of my traffic is international, then that's hardly fair. The technology exists to differentiate between local and international traffic. It is used in other countries with similar international bandwidth concerns as South Africa.

Juice

BTTB

14-03-2004, 08:25 AM

Taking my Usage this month for example. Its the 14th of the month and I have used a total of 2116.599 MB. I won’t make the end of the month at all. But in my case for example the kids and my 2 nephews were all playing CS yesterday and my usage peaked to 377.892 MB for one day. A high percentage of that is directly attributed to playing games on a local server. Hardly fair as later this month I wont be able to browse overseas as we know capped speeds are unusable.
I find Telkoms attitude and lack of response about the 3 gig situation extremely annoying. It so obvious that the majority of users never abuse their connection. But the rest must suffer. Its like a classroom situation, where little Johnny made a noise in class and teacher couldn’t see who made the noise, so the whole class must stay after school for detention.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Karnaugh

14-03-2004, 09:55 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To Telkom: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE consider the benifit to the economy and employment fates if the IT industry was able to create and iplement jobs based on new solutions that are at this stage just not viable given your current solutions and pricing schedules.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's really up to ICASA to get us closer to deregulation.

Just a quote from a URL Telkom provided, they are clients of this website, "We endorse deregulation and competition"

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

caroper

14-03-2004, 11:32 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We are certain that you will agree that Telkom does not dictate the technology of the product, we simply sell the product as designed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This point could also trip them up if the technical people on the list can get hold of the ADSL specification documents from IEEE or whoever set the standards.

To the best of my knowledge ADSL is a "Last Mile" product and specifies the use of existing copper wire from the consumer to the exchange. It has no bearing on international bandwidth at all, nor does it include port shaping or capping. Obviously the technology allows for this, but it is an ISP not a Telkom function.

In short, Telkom does indeed dictate the technology of the product supplied to South African users.

Cheers
Chris

Perdition

14-03-2004, 11:51 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 Its like a classroom situation, where little Johnny made a noise in class and teacher couldn’t see who made the noise, so the whole class must stay after school for detention.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent analogy, Telkom are basically treating everyone like school children. They believe that given free reign EVERYONE will abuse the service. In reality this is complete nonsense and it is nothing more than a tactic to prevent corporate users migrating from Diginet.

zookeeper

14-03-2004, 12:15 PM

There are various issues in regards with Telkom's reply that is a cause of concern to me and Cubehre ( Another MyADSL member )

This is our reply and concerns in regards with Telkom's official reply:

1. Cost of the ADSL service:

1.1. Cost of modems:
The Telkom ADSL POTS ROUTER seems to be of an inferior quality to other products with a lower price tag currently available in South Africa. We experienced endless problems with the Telkom ADSL Pots Router purchased for our small business before the price decrease. Daily reboots and constant network problems were experienced:
a) Daily Reboots:
It seemed that the Telkom ADSL Router generated errors which resulted in no internet access until the router was rebooted, sometimes several times a day!
b) Network Problems:
Inexplicably the Telkom ADSL Router was not happy when more than four workstations were connected to it, and even adding an intelligent switch to the network only seemed to solve the problem of communication between workstations, but not the fact that only four workstations were allowed access to the internet through the Telkom ADSL Router.

In contrast to the above experiences we also purchased a Duxbury Netgear ADSL Modem ( DM602 ), with much lower price tag than the Telkom ADSL Router at that stage. We are currently using the Netgear Router on a home network, and all we can say is: What a pleasure! This router is of high quality and quite stylish in silver, and we've experienced none of the hassles we've had with the Telkom ADSL Router. We then decided to switch the modems on the two premises, using the Telkom Router at home, and the Netgear Router at the office. The same problems were experienced with the Telkom Router on the home network, and none with the Netgear Router on the office network. Thus we've concluded that it was not a network fault, but most definitely the Telkom ADSL Router that was at fault.

Since, we've gotten rid of the Telkom ADSL Router, it's just not worth the price tag and the hassles. This also poses the question: How could these inferior Telkom ADSL Routers be approved by ICASA?

1.2 Cost of Line Rentals
We have to point out that line rentals should in no way be connected to the cost of international bandwidth as this is a telecommunications infrastructure issue and not an internet service provider issue. The fact that Telkom refers to bandwidth issues in the "Cost of Line Rentals" section is a clear indication of the misrepresentation of service issues by Telkom as seen so many times before.

It is however true that South African USERS subsidise overseas connections, but this is in no way related to ADSL line costs in South Africa. The fact of the matter is that these "subsidies" are normally paid for by USERS who host their websites in South Africa. South African Hosting Companies covers the bandwidth costs of international users "connecting" to websites hosted here. Thus the USERS referred to here aren't even Internet Connection clients, but web hosting clients who has to spend a pretty penny for additional bandwidth if their website has exceeded the allocated amount of bandwidth ( Normally over R1.00 per Mb ). Furthermore this means that Telkom has no direct costs to cover for clients if the client hosts his/her website at any other company in South Africa.

2. The ADSL Service
Telkom states that complaints from ADSL users in regards with Telkom's ADSL service has been minimal and that disgruntled users are by far in the minority. We feel that this can mainly be attributed to the fact that the ADSL service can only be provided through Telkom ADSL lines, which means that "non-technical" ADSL users cannot compare the service to any other similar service. This is a clear indication that the minority of disgruntled users consists of two main groups: Technically savvy users and users that has experienced overseas ADSL services. These two groups are disgruntled because they recognize the inferior ADSL service offered by Telkom when compared to International ADSL Standards. The other, "main group", of users simply doesn't realise that they are using an inferior ADSL service, since they can only compare it to their previous ISDN or in most cases 56k Dial-up connections.

Telkom also states: "We are certain that you will agree that Telkom does not dictate the technology of the product, we simply sell the product as designed." Once again a misrepresentation of their service, since most users do not have the knowledge of what ADSL connections are capable of. The fact that most international websites time-out and national websites load times are extremely slow when we've reached our 3Gb cap, is also totally unacceptable, since this indicates that capped users connections are throttled to far below 56k standard.

The above reply concludes our response to Telkom's statement.

Furthermore we would like to request that ICASA order an independent audit of Telkom’s ADSL Line provider service to determine exactly what the expense to turnover ratio consists of. We have a "sneaky" suspicion that the profits from this division is astronomical. This would not have been an issue if there were other similar services from competing companies.
Herewith a simple calculation:
16000 users time R600.00 per month for the ADSL line, not even taking business rates into account, equates to R 9.6 million per month and R 115.2 million per year!
This, coupled with the fact that the Telkom ISP division's cost cannot be subtracted from the above amount for costs incurred, surely should be an indication that the infrastructure is either hellishly expensive or Telkom ADSL line provider has been reaping massive profits from consumers.

We urge ICASA to take the above reply into consideration.

Kind Regards
ZooKeeper
Web Specialist

zookeeper

14-03-2004, 12:17 PM

There are various issues in regards with Telkom's reply that is a cause of concern to me and Cubehre ( Another MyADSL member )

This is our reply and concerns in regards with Telkom's official reply:

1. Cost of the ADSL service:

1.1. Cost of modems:
The Telkom ADSL POTS ROUTER seems to be of an inferior quality to other products with a lower price tag currently available in South Africa. We experienced endless problems with the Telkom ADSL Pots Router purchased for our small business before the price decrease. Daily reboots and constant network problems were experienced:
a) Daily Reboots:
It seemed that the Telkom ADSL Router generated errors which resulted in no internet access until the router was rebooted, sometimes several times a day!
b) Network Problems:
Inexplicably the Telkom ADSL Router was not happy when more than four workstations were connected to it, and even adding an intelligent switch to the network only seemed to solve the problem of communication between workstations, but not the fact that only four workstations were allowed access to the internet through the Telkom ADSL Router.

In contrast to the above experiences we also purchased a Duxbury Netgear ADSL Modem ( DM602 ), with much lower price tag than the Telkom ADSL Router at that stage. We are currently using the Netgear Router on a home network, and all we can say is: What a pleasure! This router is of high quality and quite stylish in silver, and we've experienced none of the hassles we've had with the Telkom ADSL Router. We then decided to switch the modems on the two premises, using the Telkom Router at home, and the Netgear Router at the office. The same problems were experienced with the Telkom Router on the home network, and none with the Netgear Router on the office network. Thus we've concluded that it was not a network fault, but most definitely the Telkom ADSL Router that was at fault.

Since, we've gotten rid of the Telkom ADSL Router, it's just not worth the price tag and the hassles. This also poses the question: How could these inferior Telkom ADSL Routers be approved by ICASA?

1.2 Cost of Line Rentals
We have to point out that line rentals should in no way be connected to the cost of international bandwidth as this is a telecommunications infrastructure issue and not an internet service provider issue. The fact that Telkom refers to bandwidth issues in the "Cost of Line Rentals" section is a clear indication of the misrepresentation of service issues by Telkom as seen so many times before.

It is however true that South African USERS subsidise overseas connections, but this is in no way related to ADSL line costs in South Africa. The fact of the matter is that these "subsidies" are normally paid for by USERS who host their websites in South Africa. South African Hosting Companies covers the bandwidth costs of international users "connecting" to websites hosted here. Thus the USERS referred to here aren't even Internet Connection clients, but web hosting clients who has to spend a pretty penny for additional bandwidth if their website has exceeded the allocated amount of bandwidth ( Normally over R1.00 per Mb ). Furthermore this means that Telkom has no direct costs to cover for clients if the client hosts his/her website at any other company in South Africa.

2. The ADSL Service
Telkom states that complaints from ADSL users in regards with Telkom's ADSL service has been minimal and that disgruntled users are by far in the minority. We feel that this can mainly be attributed to the fact that the ADSL service can only be provided through Telkom ADSL lines, which means that "non-technical" ADSL users cannot compare the service to any other similar service. This is a clear indication that the minority of disgruntled users consists of two main groups: Technically savvy users and users that has experienced overseas ADSL services. These two groups are disgruntled because they recognize the inferior ADSL service offered by Telkom when compared to International ADSL Standards. The other, "main group", of users simply doesn't realise that they are using an inferior ADSL service, since they can only compare it to their previous ISDN or in most cases 56k Dial-up connections.

Telkom also states: "We are certain that you will agree that Telkom does not dictate the technology of the product, we simply sell the product as designed." Once again a misrepresentation of their service, since most users do not have the knowledge of what ADSL connections are capable of. The fact that most international websites time-out and national websites load times are extremely slow when we've reached our 3Gb cap, is also totally unacceptable, since this indicates that capped users connections are throttled to far below 56k standard.

The above reply concludes our response to Telkom's statement.

Furthermore we would like to request that ICASA order an independent audit of Telkom’s ADSL Line provider service to determine exactly what the expense to turnover ratio consists of. We have a "sneaky" suspicion that the profits from this division is astronomical. This would not have been an issue if there were other similar services from competing companies.
Herewith a simple calculation:
16000 users time R600.00 per month for the ADSL line, not even taking business rates into account, equates to R 9.6 million per month and R 115.2 million per year!
This, coupled with the fact that the Telkom ISP division's cost cannot be subtracted from the above amount for costs incurred, surely should be an indication that the infrastructure is either hellishly expensive or Telkom ADSL line provider has been reaping massive profits from consumers.

We urge ICASA to take the above reply into consideration.

Kind Regards
ZooKeeper
Web Specialist

BTTB

14-03-2004, 12:21 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Excellent analogy, Telkom are basically treating everyone like school children. They believe that given free reign EVERYONE will abuse the service. In reality this is complete nonsense and it is nothing more than a tactic to prevent corporate users migrating from Diginet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you. I for one don’t bother with P2P stuff. I can’t say I never will, but that is my decision what I will or won’t do. Telkom refers to Napster and other P2P applications of which I have not the foggiest idea on how to use them. Besides Telkom has gone ahead and shaped these ports, so what is the problem then?? "Buy another account", I geuss.
Also when or if corporate users start using ADSL, if ever that happens considering that Sentech is becoming an alternative for them, I seriously doubt that they will want to download mp3's and movies day and night. Besides if they are shaped, at what speed would they download anyway. It's just a load of old crock. And I agree with you about Telkom scared that their diginet customers might migrate to ADSL. But its absurd to penalise the rest of SA with a sub standard service, so that you can continue making monopolistic profits.
I just hope ICASA can see through all the untruths and half told stories. And uses countries like South Korea as a benchmark of where we could of been had Telkom not tried to stick it to the consumers.
Telkom is a remnant of the past controlled by money hungry management bent on squeezing every last drop out of the SA Cash Cow.
It just amazes me that the ANC who a decade ago came into power with liberal intentions can sit back and watch the SA Public getting screwed. They certainly have made a mess out of the telecommunication industry. I just hope ICASA has the teeth to rectify the situation as the SNO isn’t happening. I hear the SNO operators cannot raise the Capital, which is probably one of many other problems.

From a earlier post:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> quote: Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.

And if you do see a Yes, dont throw Mr White away who could be skulking around on these threads.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I see 1 vote. Aaah caught out. So Mr White does visit this forum. Ok so we have established that, are you coming to the braai then Mr White? Pap and Sous and Brandy and Coke included. [:D][:D][:D]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Karnaugh

14-03-2004, 06:18 PM

Hey check it out, you can get a new Corsa for less per month than ADSL [8)]

The lite side of life, and all.

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

Cloud

15-03-2004, 12:53 AM

since its almost election time, why does someone not try to get the politicians involved in the telecommunications debate.

think about it, if they start saying things like:

"Vote DA, we'll give the average south african the power to compete internationally by reshaping the telecommunication policy in south africa"

"Vote ANC, we'll build 1000 ADSL equiped houses a month and slash internet costs across the board to help south africa escape from the constraints of telkom-based internet."

etc etc etc.

godmode

15-03-2004, 07:58 AM

Excellent work on the complaint. I can only hope that it gets the due attention it deserves.

Telkom's excuse of Bandwidth costs is laughable, they are still using the same bandwidth they had when they were charging people a body and a house for the Diginet services. They haven't increased their bandwidth overseas. So basically they are making pure profit on the ADSL service. Plus the infrastructure is exactly the same except for some extra cards, and despite what everyone thinks, POTS = Plain Old Telephone System, so they are trying to use anagrams to confuse the public into thinking they had to install major upgrades.

Life creeps up on you like a windshield on a bug.

neobyte

15-03-2004, 08:37 AM

Why is it that Telkom use International bandwidth cost as their argument yet, include up and down LOCAL downloads in the total monthly downloads?

Congrates to everyone (mostly RPM) for their invlovment in this issue.[:D][:D][:D]

BTTB

15-03-2004, 09:18 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From a earlier post:

quote: quote: Watch those votes on the article at ITWeb. So far 36 votes and Telkom still to get 1.

And if you do see a Yes, dont throw Mr White away who could be skulking around on these threads.

I see 1 vote. Aaah caught out. So Mr White does visit this forum. Ok so we have established that, are you coming to the braai then Mr White? Pap and Sous and Brandy and Coke included. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Its 106 votes now and counting. Its still only 1 against. So guys As I stated before, it must of been Mr White skulking around the forum. Hehe.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ajax

15-03-2004, 09:40 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">On the issue of the allegedly high cost of the service, we must point out that the fact that we are situated in South Africa means that international bandwidth is purchased at a premium and it not unlimited.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This response from Telkom (see the News section paragraph 1.2) must have been written in a hurry and not by someone competent. The letter was not even put through a spelling/grammar checker...[:o)]

Ajax

Bentley

15-03-2004, 03:30 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tharaxis
 So basically they're saying that if Telkom decides to delay or in any other way ignore the situation you're looking at a long time before there's any actual resolution to the complaint.

Gee... I wonder which route Telkom will take.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Perhaps another angle is to also file a complaint with the Competitions Commission. They seem be quite receptive for complaints about Telkom at the moment...

Aspects of Telkom's ADSL service that could be interpreted to be anti-competitive are:
<ul>
<li>The monthly charge is set deliberately high to protect their revenue from voice calls: most heavy ADSL users were clocking up substantial call charges with PSTN/ISDN dial-up before they got ADSL. The cheaper they make the ADSL line charge, the more revenue they lose when heavy dial-up users switch to ADSL.</li>

<li> The major reason for the high international bandwidth charge, the only potential excuse for the 3Gbyte cap, is Telkom's own high charges for their half-circuit of the international data circuit. On high bandwidth circuits such as what ISPs would procure (34, 45 and 155 Mbps), Telkom's half-circuit charge is between 4 and 5 times higher than the half-circuit from the correspondent telco in UK, Europe or USA. This, unfortunately, is difficult to prove as the charges paid for these high bandwidth circuits to other operators are almost always heavily discounted because of the big deals involved. The list prices are probably somewhat in line with what Telkom charges, always.</li></ul>

Karnaugh

15-03-2004, 07:09 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It just amazes me that the ANC who a decade ago came into power with liberal intentions can sit back and watch the SA Public getting screwed. They certainly have made a mess out of the telecommunication industry.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Affraid I cant let that one slip. The "mess" as you call it is as a direct result of the previous government, the ANC have already done quite a bit to get towards deregulation

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

Cloudie

15-03-2004, 08:16 PM

Thanks guys for doing all this work - only hope it'll pay off.

I don't know too much about the technical side of things (been leaving that up to you and just trawling the site) and the Telkom reply all sounds half decent and justified... but the truth still is that I arrived back in SA a few months ago with a thriving business that I set up with my UK ADSL connection to bring in around 8000GBP a month VERY eager to get things setup in SA because "now ADSL is available" and hey, I LOVE SA and would rather have the GBP RAIN converted to ZAR SUN! I struggled around in SA for a few weeks with an absolutely abysmal connection which at times I could not even connect to my overseas server and have now been forced back overseas to try and rescue what I can... Fine, Telkom had a few problems, like IP addressy shmags getting blocked because of some spam or e-mail viruses causing chaos. I connected to my UK ADSL in seconds and never had a fault for 2 years and paid R500pm (read it RAND!! "Business account" to boot)) for EVERYTHING!

So, Telkom: yes, your ADSL is a 'best effort' service (thanks for trying so hard ;)) and yes, you do not make any guarantees (who wants to really, it's just business and you are the NATIONAL service provider) and yes, maybe it is expensive because it costs you a lot to pay for the international watchamakallit... But I cannot afford the excuses and lack of solution providing discussions and so have to leave it be and find my own solutions. Like travelling overseas personally and running my business from there - suits my pocket Telkom, does it suit yours?

(I know I should not be addressing Telkom personally in this forum - but you never know who's reading it... Maybe that one voter for Telkom?)

BTTB

15-03-2004, 09:30 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Affraid I cant let that one slip. The "mess" as you call it is as a direct result of the previous government, the ANC have already done quite a bit to get towards deregulation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sure I agree. The Nats used Telkom to provide jobs for their potential voters and cash for their own coffers. Whereas the deregulation of telecommunications across the world has only stepped up pace over the last decade or so just like SA. But now, we are still waiting for the SNO to even out the playing fields, but alas, it isn’t enjoying priority status at government level. One can ponder why. Well now the ANC are in charge so the 70% shareholding left in Telkom is going into their coffers with the help of monopolistic pricing from Telkom. Plus all the taxes that Telkom pays to the SARS. And now the shoe is just on some other okes foot due to affirmative action. So are we as consumers better off. It just seems the same picture with a different frame to me.
Don’t get me wrong in my statement; I’m not anti affirmative action.
I personally thought that in another way, Telkom could have remained a state parastatal and continued providing jobs for the masses. But now it’s too late. It's just the consumer keeps having to foot the bill. And all we ask for is a quality product at a competitive price. It’s not much to ask. [:D]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

onionpeel

16-03-2004, 06:13 AM

It's the same gravy train, with a different driver and some more carriages.[8]

Those who stare at the past have their backs turned to the future.

BTTB

16-03-2004, 08:02 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It's the same gravy train, with a different driver and some more carriages.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, that’s one way of looking at it.
The only thing different in this picture is that 30% of the carriages are occupied by foreigners who seem to have the foot on the petrol.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ASnogarD

16-03-2004, 11:50 AM

Intresting article regarding UK broadband and DSLAM prices dropping by 50% which allow BT to drop its prices.

http://www.opticalkeyhole.com/keyhole/html/ukbroadband.asp?bhcd2=1079430705

ipodmusicman

16-03-2004, 01:08 PM

Just a point to ponder, why is Telkom implementing the 3gig cap on traffic in the first place? Isn't the actual traffic coming from an ISP? Isn't the ISP responsible for providing internet access, but Telkom providing the network infrastructure - since we pay the ISP for net access right?

Then why do they say in thair response to the complaint that they have to institute the 3gig cap to provide the fastest service? I don't know of any cases overseas where the network infrastructure suffers so much that it causes huge, huge problems for other users.

So basically, they are conning us out of the service the ISP can provide which is the service we pay for when the 3gig cap hits.

Don't even get me started on port shaping, etc. I am not an ADSL subscriber because of all these problems. In my eyes, Telkom will make SO much more money if their offering was more attactive to the majority of people in SA in terms of cost, etc. Give me a good deal and I'll sign up right away!

Karnaugh

16-03-2004, 02:21 PM

No, the ISP's resell value added services like E-Mail accounts etc. The ISP's lease RADIUS accounts from SAIX who are the actual providers of the bandwidth, ie at the end of the day - Telkom

It is indeed posible (if prices were not so high from telkom's side) to make an arrangement with Telkom for ISP's to route their ADSL customers into their own network - IS did this for a brief while (the details may not be exact).

<hr noshade size="1">
"Since light travels faster than sound, people appear bright until you hear them speak."

NetLink Research

BTTB

16-03-2004, 03:37 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Intresting article regarding UK broadband and DSLAM prices dropping by 50% which allow BT to drop its prices.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes this is a very good reflection of what Telkom in the end will be forced to do. BT is Britains equivalent of Telkom.
The cost of equipment dropping by half and the advent of competition will also force Telkom to drops its line rental by half if they want to stay in business. Its a all a matter of, when is the competition coming? Its been over 2 years for the SNO and still nothing.
When all this transpires in SA, I very much doubt I want to be sailing on Telkom's ship anymore. On principle I will change my account to another company because of the shoddy service and rip off prices charged over the years.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

VQuest

16-03-2004, 04:05 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 [quote] On principle I will change my account to another company because of the shoddy service and rip off prices charged over the years.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I totally agree - this is what I've said all along. The very moment there is a viable alternative to Telkom's service, I will change over - on principle.

In my business it is my policy to take care of my customers, no matter what. I would rather earn a slightly smaller profit and have happy clients. I certainly could not look in the mirror if I knew that I was ripping my clients off because there was no one else who could offer them the service.

So why does Telkom not see this? The time will come when we do have a choice and Telkom is either too stupid to see this or they feel if they can milk us for all we're worth now, then they don't have to worry about the future. Either way this policy is unbelievable. No matter what they say, there is absolutely no way to justify their pricing structure for ADSL. We won't even venture further and mention any of their other services.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

BTTB

16-03-2004, 04:56 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">then they don't have to worry about the future.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

History keeps repeating itself and Telkom is no exception.
A poor business plan looking at today and not tomorrow unlike their moto that they proclaim. "Touch Tomorrow." These business principles will still come back to haunt Telkom and nobody will ever trust them in the market place. They do not behave like a listed company as far as service delivery is concerned. More like fossils from the past.
It's just sad to see your countries assets like Telkom been used against us to make profit and nothing else.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Strobemeister

16-03-2004, 07:54 PM

Well, i just wanted to add my name to this thread. All the bases have been covered. I can't see how anyone can be happy with the shoddy reply. It smacks of dismissiveness. Very poor form. I hope ICASA have the cahones to take this all the way.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

martin

17-03-2004, 09:26 AM

I just thought of something. Should ICASA not be investigating our claims instead of just pressuring Telkom for a response? At the moment they're just acting as a go-between and not a regulator or am I missing something?

VQuest

17-03-2004, 09:31 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by martin
 I just thought of something. Should ICASA not be investigating our claims instead of just pressuring Telkom for a response? At the moment they're just acting as a go-between and not a regulator or am I missing something?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I also presumed they would be doing an investigation. Well, I certainly hope so, or there would be no point in us contacting ICASA. With the "mis-information" coming out of Telkom, they have proved they can't be trusted. So lets hope we can rely on ICASA to do the right thing.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

lewstherin

17-03-2004, 10:32 AM

The Telkom reply is typical arrogance...I just hope ICASA can cut them down to size [B)]

As far as Telkom's motto...grr don't even get me started on that...everytime I see "Touch Tomorrow" my blood starts to boil at the sheer ignorance of that [:(!]

Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the SA consumer needs to make it happen

reech

17-03-2004, 04:49 PM

Would it be worth mentioning that if a ZA adsl user used the service at full download speed for 24 hours they would be capped (and thats no even using upstream bandwidth)- so telkom is essentially overcharging customers for on a monthly basis for a days' worth of connectivity at full speed?

512kbps x 60secs x 60 mins x 24 h = 44236800 bits = 5.1498GB

Mux

17-03-2004, 08:11 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by reech
 Would it be worth mentioning that if a ZA adsl user used the service at full download speed for 24 hours they would be capped (and thats no even using upstream bandwidth)- so telkom is essentially overcharging customers for on a monthly basis for a days' worth of connectivity at full speed?

512kbps x 60secs x 60 mins x 24 h = 44236800 bits = 5.1498GB
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Very good way of looking at it. You get 512kbs, you are just not allowed to use it to it full potential for even 1 day of the month?

I also have a problem with the mixed-up way Telkom references line rental and bandwidth costs. Surely the bandwidth (3GB) should be an ISP issue and the line rental of R680 has nothing to do with it as additional 3GB can be bought by getting another ISP account. Why is it that the same line that is used for ADSL is shared with your normal telephone line AND charged for rental again?

You don't know what you don't know.
Mux

BTTB

17-03-2004, 08:42 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Why is it that the same line that is used for ADSL is shared with your normal telephone line AND charged for rental again?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good point.
Double Rental? To think that my ISDN connection used the exact same line that my ADSL uses and that cost under R200. And then I paid MWeb R179, my ISP. Now I pay MWeb R300 odd plus R680.00 for rental of the same line I used for ISDN. Plus I am limited to download 3 gigs on ADSL whereas I could get 1 gig over a weekend on 64Kb ISDN alone. You do the maths. Ok there are also call charges on ISDN. But the total bill was about R500 to R700 for ISDN per month.
Hence taking my account in perspective if Telkom used it as a example. It would be hardly a inspiration for someone on ISDN or 56K to migrate to ADSL. It’s too expensive for one and when capped becomes completely useless for International browsing.
While Telkom embraces ISDN, the rest of the world has forgotten what it is or even knew it existed. ISDN is a lovely way to exploit someone on a dial up for metered billing. The buggers know it, but do nothing.
And I’m shocked that the average user in SA can’t see it either. What’s the point of flogging old technology? It’s just holding the country back.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

doekvoet

18-03-2004, 04:57 AM

Well - on the last day of the month I have proved that running at full capacity I can download 3Gig in around 16 - 17 hours - good point - I can reach my limit in less than 1/30 of the time the bandwidth is supposed to last, and after that the service is rendered useless for international traffic.

VQuest

18-03-2004, 11:33 AM

My thought exactly. What is the point in having the speed if you're ultimately not allowed to use it? Doesn't make much sense.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

microfast

18-03-2004, 12:48 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by VQuest
 My thought exactly...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In essence :

Telkom justify the Telkom adsl line rental due to "increased frequency",
but Telkom does not provide any increased frequency,
in fact 3GB Telkom adsl provides a decreased frequency.

Over a one month period 3GB Telkom adsl cannot achieve the frequency of ISDN or even 56K dial-up.

Further, 3GB/month telkom adsl costs Telkom less than 3GB 56K dial-up.

When one looks at ADSL costs elsewhere, it is cheap not because of cheaper international bandwidth,
it is cheap because ADSL is a much cheaper technology for telcos to operate.

Not a single Telco in the world uses Telkom's argument to charge a fixed line rental to cover "increased frequency".

Telkom has taken full advantage of cheap ADSL technology,
crippled it into Telkom adsl and pulled the wool over ICASA eyes.

Something tells me that ICASA has seen the light.

VQuest

18-03-2004, 01:16 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Something tells me that ICASA has seen the light.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Oh boy, I certainly hope so. Although I'm not holding my breath.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

BTTB

18-03-2004, 06:14 PM

What RPM could do to prove this point to ICASA is the following.
Get someone on ISDN with R7 call plan to do 1 week or 1 month Usage Statistics. Perhaps people within different ISP's have usage statistics for ISDN or even 56k clients. Now see what someone on ISDN can download in a month and the cost of that service. You will quickly be able to prove to ICASA that a mere 56k or ISDN customer not only can get his service cheaper, but also can download non-stop during his on line time and during this period the usage level will outstrip 3 gigs by far.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Telkom has taken full advantage of cheap ADSL technology,
crippled it into Telkom adsl and pulled the wool over ICASA eyes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And the rest of South Africa.
"Always On". My service at the moment is basically just this. I don’t browse local websites, so I’m just left now to send and receive mail. And ooops, yes I can play CS still which is the single reason I reached the cap in the first place. *scratches head*
It might be 8 times faster than ISDN, but when the cap kicks in, it’s 8 times slower.
Telkom, you guys suck. Thumbs down to you people!

Addendum: Ok guys it’s the 19th and 12 more days to go to the end of the month and my connection has just been capped. Anyone need any typing done? Anyone want me to go run out and buy some milk for them perhaps? You need any help RPM? Unless you give me something to do, I’m going to spend the rest of the month writing letters on MyADSL... [:D][:D][;)]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

lewstherin

19-03-2004, 09:51 AM

I've just had a thought about the whole capping thing - maybe it could be used for the complaint.
Capping is essentially not Telkom's right to impose. It should be imposed by ISPs where they deem necessary, since its their bandwidth being used right?
I mean I could spend the whole day talking on the phone, and I wouldn't be capped.
Whats the difference between that and ADSL usage as far as Telkom's infrastructure goes? Both ways I'm utilising the copper lines continuously...
Telkom's stated reason of keeping abuse under control is no justification for the cap, since abuse will not break their copper network - it will chow the ISPs bandwidth.
Anyhow maybe I'm wrong here, but thought I'd add my thoughts [8D]

By the way what is happening with the complaint RPM?

Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the SA consumer needs to make it happen

BTTB

19-03-2004, 10:03 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">By the way what is happening with the complaint RPM?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When is the hearing again?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Mean_Monster

19-03-2004, 10:36 AM

good argument lewstherin and BTTB [:)]

I have seen that a lot o people back this thing with regards to the line cost and the cap. The capping (if any) should really be on the ISP side as that is where your traffic starts going International.[V]

neobyte

19-03-2004, 12:05 PM

It is the good point to raise about the fact that Telkom is imposes the 3GB cap yet it is the ISPs domain... Surely if an ISP is making enough money there is no need for the cap. Or even charge a surpluss to cover such additional costs.

Perdition

19-03-2004, 09:07 PM

It isn't the ISPs' bandwidth being used, it is Telkom's. The ISPs merely resell Telkom ADSL accounts, this is why Telkom are able to enforce the 3 gig cap and the ISPs aren't able to do much about it.

Decembermaloy

21-03-2004, 03:13 AM

Telkom cannot afford to make adsl unlimited bandwidth because they depend on revenue from their diginet networks. If Telkom had made adsl unlimited then they would go bankrupt as users would use their adsl to make calls (voice over IP/voice over network). Most of their revenue comes from the hiring of their diginet services and when you make a call or connect to the internet that too brings in money for them. So it will be a while still before Telkom changes their ways. Looks like they cooked up new scheme : overcharging for local calls. It's such a pity that they take us users for granted, and that will be their downfall...

antowan

21-03-2004, 11:20 AM

I couldn’t agree more. As soon as a new operator comes in, Telkom will have to shed its current management and change its name because people will still connect the name and the people behind it with the communication rape that took place in this country over the years. Just because it is a monopoly, doesn’t mean it should behave like one! It is managed by people after all and in my limited experience of corporate functioning I dare say that those people at the top are the ones who decide the culture and dynamics of the company. Thus Telkom is what the management is as a tiny group of people toying with the lives of millions in this country…

Thus I agree with the administrative clerk at Telkom’s office when she says “don’t blame me, I only work here” and with the technical guy who comes to fix the line when he says, “I have nothing to do with the policies”. BLAME TELKOM’S MANAGEMENT!

I as a member of the public demand their heads on a proverbial platter when the new operator comes in! I will not invest in any company where they might sit as management after the coming Telkom fallout. There WILL be fallout, which is the main reason the government is stalling. It is such a bad situation that when the new operator comes in, Telkom will have to be protected all over again or we will sit with a new monopoly (the new operator) because people will be switching over by the thousands leaving Telkom in the cold.

These people in Telkom’s management have shown what they think of us, the consumers and ordinary people of South Africa and with or without ICASA should be held accountable for the rest of their natural lives. They should never be allowed to hold management positions in any company ever again! They should be named and appropriately shamed…

Cheers
Antowan

He who does not understand the value of war at the right time, cannot comprehend the value of life at any time - Anonymous

BTTB

21-03-2004, 12:00 PM

Well said and ditto to that.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

SK33T

21-03-2004, 01:49 PM

Well anyways I printed a logo ironed it on a T-shirt and proudly wearing it.
http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1709

I think many more of us should do it.

Myke

21-03-2004, 04:52 PM

Thanks BTTB for telling me about this forum. As I'm new here, I'm not sure if anyone has bitched yet about bandwidth being stolen but last month my account capped out on the 9th after someone stole more than 1 GB - supposedly uploaded by myself on two days! Needless to say, SAIX was unable to give me details of these uploads for the particular days I moaned about and I had wiped out the logs not realizing how important they were but thinking that my slowdown was a problem with my PC and therefore clearing out temp and junk files! Why they don't warn a subscriber that he is reaching his limit or has reached it is so utterly shoddy and disgraceful!
The slow bandwidth afterwards is disgusting to say the least! If I hadn't had a friend with a load of spare bandwidth, I would have been totally screwed for the month!
What are the catches, if any, with Sentech's satellite service? I can't wait to move over. (I'm in Kaapstad so it's still about to be launched here).

Myke Ashley-Cooper
eCartoonist

Perdition

21-03-2004, 07:07 PM

Myke, everything has been bitched about when it comes to Telkom [;)] however this should not prevent one voicing their experience. Telkom keep saying there are only "a disgruntled few" when it comes to ADSL, the more who publicly voice their bad experience the more it disproves Telkom's stance.

Oh and welcome to the forum [:)]

BTTB

21-03-2004, 10:58 PM

Hi Myke,
Welcome to MyADSL.
Now you can see for yourself that you are not alone. [:D]
It’s just sad that everyone in this land must resort to typing out their gripes on a forum in cyberspace. And to see that all the years of paying your Telkom Account on time and your taxes to the Receiver which indirectly kept Telkom in business has been squandered by the state and is now controlled by money hungry management, adamant to keep its monopolistic control over the market. It’s a sorry tale.

Well in the short term, Sentech could be the saviour. I presume you don’t play online games so you don’t need a low latency. But I would just test it out, before I signed on the dotted line. Just mark your time for the moment and when you have an opportunity ask someone who has a MyWireless if you can’t test it at your home. Or if Sentech themselves cannot do a Signal Strength Test on site.

Keep posting Myke; let’s hear some more of your thoughts.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ASnogarD

23-03-2004, 09:39 AM

Sentech is not a very viable option if you :

- Intend to play games : There is a lot of lag and unstable pings when playing even local online games, lots of gamers found out the hard way and are trying to terminate thier contract.

- Intend to download heavily : Sentech have a 'acceptable useage' policy which is determined by thier sole discretion. This translates into Sentech monitoring your useage and at thier discretion either disconnecting you or putting you into a higher price bracket.

(note: I haven't actually heard of anyone being dissconnected or put into a higher price bracket so far, but it is in the Sentech policy - I assume if you were to download like crazy you would be contacted by Sentech )

BTTB

23-03-2004, 10:19 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ASnogarD
 Sentech is not a very viable option if you :

- Intend to play games : There is a lot of lag and unstable pings when playing even local online games, lots of gamers found out the hard way and are trying to terminate thier contract.

- Intend to download heavily : Sentech have a 'acceptable useage' policy which is determined by thier sole discretion. This translates into Sentech monitoring your useage and at thier discretion either disconnecting you or putting you into a higher price bracket.

(note: I haven't actually heard of anyone being dissconnected or put into a higher price bracket so far, but it is in the Sentech policy - I assume if you were to download like crazy you would be contacted by Sentech )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Some good points Antowan.

But what I think is Myke or anyone reading this thread should do their homework on Sentech first before they buy into the scheme. Unlike myself that hurtled head first into ADSL without reading the fine print properly. Well you learn by your mistakes.
On a positive note for ADSL. I am Capped, but Im still browsing overseas since Sunday at reasonable speeds. In actaul fact I just finished downloading Service Pack2 RC1 for XP (272Mb) and it downloaded in an hour and a half from Microsoft.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

gripen

23-03-2004, 04:01 PM

As long as they warn you or call you before moving you to the higher bracket then thats fair and as long as they are reasonable with their policy ie. 20-25 GB a month. None of this 3Gig BS

Perdition

23-03-2004, 10:02 PM

It was mentioned somewhere else on the forum that Sentech only has a problem if you consistently download in excess of 2 gigs per day (not even possible on 128k solution).

mithrandi

30-04-2004, 08:10 PM

I still think that the "excessive usage" story is the stupidest thing ever. If you don't want to deal with cross-subsidizing in order to operate on a flat fee basis, then charge people a nominal connection fee, and then bill them per megabyte (at a *reasonable* rate, of course.) That way, you can't complain about "excessive usage", and people that write 30 e-mails a month and visit 2 websites a year won't be subsidising the people downloading 32423452 GB/month.

Of course, heaven forbid that anyone market a sensible idea like that... Sentech may not be any worse than other players in this regard, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

<hr noshade size="1">mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar

Tharaxis

01-05-2004, 03:23 AM

mithrandi, the problem is, this is exactly how ISP's DO cross-subsidise heavy bandwidth users with a flat-rate service, is it unfair, yes, I guess in a sense it is, but there is nothing that says you cannot use an unlimited amount at any time, and ultimately it means that all your customers are happy.

However, Telkom's current solution is to charge people a flat rate (and a high one at that), and then stop you from using it when they decide you've had enough, and THAT is unfair.

Carnajo

07-05-2004, 01:27 AM

Hi everyone.
I'm not a disgruntled ADSL user because I don't use ADSL. To be honest I'm afraid to spend that much just to discover I reach my cap in ten days, or that someone has hijacked my account and my cap has been reached, only to discover that Telkom won't do anything about it, won't let me change passwords and basically won't give a damn about its customers.

reech

07-05-2004, 11:37 AM

I think that the point is that ZA ADSL as it stands is practically useless for almost all online businesses, and is only good for ocassional websurfing and email retreival for a light (wealthy) home user.

kaspaas

07-05-2004, 12:09 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by reech
 I think that the point is that ZA ADSL as it stands is practically useless for almost all online businesses, and is only good for ocassional websurfing and email retreival for a light (wealthy) home user.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No quite,

ZA ADSL is technically the best internet connectivity option for most SOHO users, and even larger organisations.

Cost wise - Sentech MyWireless is better.

I won't discourage anybody to make the move to ADSL - it works! There is no need for costly analog/ISDN systems is you spend more per month on it than you spend on ADSL.

My business are running through 2 Prolog accounts - the ease of 1 payment for telephone, ADSL and ISP does not warrant a cheaper option.

But ADSL remains over priced, underperforming compared to what is available to SA's trading partners and our competitors int he market.

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

fusion01

22-07-2004, 03:47 PM

Look, no matter how ICASA justify all of this (and they sound like a Telkom spokesman - coincidental?) the fact remains: 20% of my gross monthly earnings go to Telkom as a professional working in South Africa. Now no matter how expensive bandwidth is for us due to geographic location, this percentage has to be amongst the highest in the world.

I remember in the UK when I lived there - before ADSL had appeared - I used to connect for about 3 hours a day. I thought the phone bill was fiendish at 5%! Now with ADSL there, the total must be around 2-3% of gross.

What we pay is blatantly not right. I have ADSL and use my landline for a maximum of 10 mins of calls daily! I'm surely a 'light' user of Telkom's services?! I'd hate to see what some sell their granny (or more realistically, go into debt) for.

=====================
Fusion.01 : Internet Design & Production
www.fusion01.com
=====================

OGO

04-08-2004, 04:36 PM

The entire response misses many points:

ICASA has about as much credibility as the man in the moon, they have never done anything real that I can think of, they have less teeth than a chicken. Note that Telkom always quotes interactions with ICASA and never any other (dare I say independent) observers.

The entire issue of bandwidth and competition, and the reports that keep indicating that there is something seriously amiss with the line being taken by Telkom "We are poor chaps that are being ripped off by the rest of the world" and other drivel.

One burning question is; if Telkom is essentially making just about nothing on ADSL (nor any other service if we are to beleive them), where do the record profits come from? Efficiency? No seriously guys, where do they come from?

Essentially the response says nothing in a lot of words. Telkom will never listen to us, and has never listened to us, they are arrogant and incompetent.

BTTB

28-09-2004, 02:36 PM

*BUMP*

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

VQuest

28-09-2004, 03:44 PM

I couldn't remember when RPM first contacted ICASA - so I'm absolutely shocked to see that it was way back in February. Thats OVER 7 months ago and we're still nowhere near getting any answers. Totally unbelievable. So ICASA has proved themselves to be as useless as Telkom. I'll be happy to eat my words if they can prove me wrong and do what they were formed to do. Protect the people and not the monopoly.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

rpm

28-09-2004, 04:10 PM

Hi guys

I contected them again and will give feedback as soon as I receive any...

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

VQuest

28-09-2004, 04:50 PM

Thanks RPM. I can understand it might take a month or two to investigate a complaint, but 7 + months?? Unbelievable.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

onionpeel

28-09-2004, 06:24 PM

VQuest, if I give you a brand new Jeep Cherokee V8, Limited Edition, all the whistles and bells, in recognition of your long service to MyADSL.co.za, do you promise to 'accidentally forget' about this post or say that you were 'too busy' to get round to rememebring to follow up?[;)][:p]

VQuest

28-09-2004, 07:20 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by onionpeel
 VQuest, if I give you a brand new Jeep Cherokee V8, Limited Edition, all the whistles and bells, in recognition of your long service to MyADSL.co.za, do you promise to 'accidentally forget' about this post or say that you were 'too busy' to get round to rememebring to follow up?[;)][:p]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very tempting indeed [:)]

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

stoke

28-09-2004, 08:01 PM

Well - if VQuest doesnt want the Jeep - give it to me - i'll shove it up the Directors a**, in public and then make spans of money selling the film to reality TV shows. I HATE BRIBERY. It's screwing up Africa.

onionpeel

28-09-2004, 09:30 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stoke
 I HATE BRIBERY. It's screwing up Africa.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's part of the high cost of doing business in Africa.
"Money talks."[:o)]

donn

29-09-2004, 12:05 PM

> I'll shove it up the Directors a**,

Reminds me of a very readable article called "Car Wars" in the latest Noseweek. If you can't afford one, run down to the CNA and read it anyway. You'll probably buy the magazine. One of the things this particular angry consumer did was drive his brand new (faulty) BMW into the fishpond at BMW headquarters.

Remember: in the long run it isn't a good idea to make your customer your enemy.

<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
MyWireless: Diva-style reliability, dial-up performance (or worse)

Spamtheman

29-09-2004, 12:13 PM

Hmmm could we strangle telkom with the utp cables they give you then?

Retnox

07-12-2004, 02:32 PM

I contected them again and will give feedback as soon as I receive any...

So I take it you haven't received any response in the last two months?

VQuest

08-12-2004, 07:32 AM

I'm starting to think the only way we can get ICASA to actually do anything is to continuously bug them daily about our complaint. Instead of leaving it for months in the hope that they will actually do what they are meant to be doing. Talk about stall tactics.

quik

14-12-2004, 09:33 PM

If you think about it... Constant complaints are about all ICASA deal with since they don't actually take action where required :P

So I think bugging them on a daily basis would still be fruitless. Their incompetence lies much deeper than that :/

Lets just hope someone there catches a wake up call and decides to actually honour their mandate.