HELP! What are our legal rights as tenants?

[Oogie]

Hey everyone....

PLEASE ADVISE!!!

So to cut a long story (a little shorter) We have been renting a property for 3 years - with a few things that were promised to us in the begining that we never got but were able to live without. Our existing agreement expires 31 Jan '08 and a few months back I requested a renewal for a further 1 year. This was all done via email and fax as we rent directly from the owner who has since moved to the U.K and is never available. Anyway we were given the new contract and once hubby and I had read through it and had a think bout things we have changed our minds as we are not prepared/able to pay the increase that is due. We let the owner know on Friday that we are no longer renewing the contract (nothing has been signed yet for the new period)

The owner has not accepted this and is seeking legal advice...

What are my rights? The contract states that early termination must be done with a 4 month notice period - however the new contract has not been signed as we do not accept it - but have given 1 month's notice!

Now what?

[DJ...]

Landlord doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's the landlord's issue now - you shouldn't worry about anything, apart from ensuring you leave the place in a state that will ensure you get your deposit back...

[Oogie]

I hope so - I am really concerned.
He say we should have given him 4 months notice but the contrct expires. Granted we asked for a renewal but did not sign as we are not happy with the new lease...

What a pain in the bottom...

[iDenTiTy]

Landlord doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's the landlord's issue now - you shouldn't worry about anything, apart from ensuring you leave the place in a state that will ensure you get your deposit back...

AFAIK - +1.

[Waaib]

Is there any clause in the contract that was signed (now expired) that deals with how notice should be given? If not then I reckon pack up and go but don't expect your deposit back.

[DJ...]

I hope so - I am really concerned.
He say we should have given him 4 months notice but the contrct expires. Granted we asked for a renewal but did not sign as we are not happy with the new lease...

What a pain in the bottom...

Don't bother - once the contract expires, and as long as there is no "month by month" clause or similar thereafter, you can move out whenever you feel like. It is a risk the landlord takes. Just be pleasant and firm, explain that you cannot be tied into a contract that has not been signed, even if you showed interest in the first place, and that you have now provided your notice and wish to move forward amicably. You could be decent and offer to help find a new tenant, even if that merely involves posting an ad on privateproperty - the landlord's predicament is understandable, however their knee-jerk "legal" reaction is over-board. But you could be the bigger person and offer help, which will hopefully work in your favour regarding the deposit...

[AcidRaZor]

I hope so - I am really concerned.
He say we should have given him 4 months notice but the contrct expires. Granted we asked for a renewal but did not sign as we are not happy with the new lease...

What a pain in the bottom...

Landlord is ****ed here my dear.

If you needed to give 4 months notice before terminating the contract, it was his/her responsibility to give you a renewal contract 4 months prior to the expiry of said contract.

So he/she shot him/herself in the foot by waiting this long to give you the renewal contract. End of story.

The owner is screwed like you won't believe. Even with legal advice they'll just be wasting their money.

Good luck in finding a new place!

Oh and BTW, if something is promised to you MAKE SURE ITS ON BLACK & WHITE!!!!

Promises isn't worth the paper (oh wait, its not printed!!) lol. If you were promised xy & z in the contract and it was never delivered, and he/she REALLY wants to play foul and make your lives a living hell by this 4 month thing and battle it in court, you can always turn around saying he/she is in breach of contract because xyz was never delivered as promised in the contract ;)

[thedutchman]

its like me, i got promised a lot and received f0k0l. :D

[Hosehead]

The landlord will in all liklihood just keep your deposit. Not that he's entitled to it. Just to recover his money on wasted legal advice.

[DJ...]

The landlord will in all liklihood just keep your deposit. Not that he's entitled to it. Just to recover his money on wasted legal advice.

In that case, it would amount to theft...

[Waaib]

All landlords 'seek legal advice'. That means, 'I'm going to talk to my sisters, ex-boyfriends, mothers, cousins, wife who is a receptionist at a law firm that specializes in livestock law while you stress out and worry about being sued'. It's standard operating procedure.

The landlord usually knows where they stand because they've played out the risks of being a landlord and come up with options for various situations beforehand.

[Oogie]

Well as of yet we have not paid the rent that is due this month - because we know he will most prob keep it because of this. Are we wrong in doing this? or should we just pay and hope for the best?

we don't have the "promises" in black and white - we were to trusting as it "was" an aquantaince (sp) and we were to stupid to be forceful of this!

Is it worth speaking to a lawyer or is that a waste of money?

P.S - Is it right that he has stipulated in the cotract that we are responsible for rates and taxes as well as water and lights? - another reason we not wanting to sign!

[Oogie]

He just phoned again... said he will hunt us down - legally! We must prepare ourselves if we "screw him over"

[Waaib]

In that case, it would amount to theft...

Ja it is theft. I had a situation where the landy was giving me issues about the deposit claiming that I had not given enough notice. I just wrote it off and moved on which is what I suspect he was hoping for.

He had told me he was selling the place and that the new owners where moving in so my lease was going to be terminated. Then his deal fell through so he wanted me to stay but I had already found and signed for another place.

About two years later we dumped into each other in the shops. His friendly greeting was met with a blank stare from me and after about 5 seconds of silence he seemed to remember what he had done and scurried off.

[DJ...]

Well as of yet we have not paid the rent that is due this month - because we know he will most prob keep it because of this. Are we wrong in doing this? or should we just pay and hope for the best?

Landlords usually ask for 6 weeks' rent upfront to avoid this happening.


Is it worth speaking to a lawyer or is that a waste of money?

Waste of money, unless the landlord keeps your deposit...


P.S - Is it right that he has stipulated in the cotract that we are responsible for rates and taxes as well as water and lights? - another reason we not wanting to sign!

Yes - you're occupying the property so variable rates are your responsibility. Often the landlord will take responsibility for the rates though. But they're not obliged to AFAIK...

[DJ...]

He just phoned again... said he will hunt us down - legally! We must prepare ourselves if we "screw him over"

He's just being a hard-ass. Ask him to please send through the legal papers if he is planning to sue. Take it from there. Don't tell him he hasn't got a legal leg to stand on, wait for his lawyer to tell him that. Do you have a copy of the lease? Make sure you have a copy signed by the landlord...

[Waaib]

Well as of yet we have not paid the rent that is due this month - because we know he will most prob keep it because of this. Are we wrong in doing this? or should we just pay and hope for the best?

Strictly speaking you should pay this but you could just tell him to keep his deposit IF the place is exactly as it was when you move in or better.


we don't have the "promises" in black and white - we were to trusting as it "was" an aquantaince (sp) and we were to stupid to be forceful of this!

Is it worth speaking to a lawyer or is that a waste of money?

I wouldn't bother with legal fees until it's absolutely necessary.


P.S - Is it right that he has stipulated in the cotract that we are responsible for rates and taxes as well as water and lights? - another reason we not wanting to sign!

Anything in a new contract is fine as long as it is legal and both parties agree to it but seen as you have not and will not sign it you can throw it away and forget about it.


He just phoned again... said he will hunt us down - legally! We must prepare ourselves if we "screw him over"

You need to check the contract you signed originally. Anything not on black and white doesn't really work (although verbal contracts are legally binding). What does the contract that just expired say about giving notice? That is what you must work inside of. Ignore everything to do with the new contract - it does not exist until you agree to it.

[Shake&Bake]

Just really go through your contract that you have signed.

Look at the clauses relating to the notice period you should be giving on that.
If it's 4 months on the original contract you have signed, then you're in for a bit of a pickle. :o
1 month's notice will then not suffice.

Also look for anything relating to you not renewing and what terms and conditions there are for either staying at the property on a month to month basis, or what the "exit clause". (terminology may be wrong there)
But there could be a few clauses that could still throw a spanner in the works.

Your concern in essence should not be for the unsigned contract, but rather for your one that has now "expired".

Please have a read through the old/original and let us know or even post the clause(s) here if you're up to typing it all ;)

[Oogie]

Wait I just checked our existing lease - it does state that we must give 4 calendar months notice if we plan to leave when the contract expires... problem!

[Waaib]

Wait I just checked our existing lease - it does state that we must give 4 calendar months notice if we plan to leave when the contract expires... problem!

Ouch. Offer double or quits quickly. Jokes. (sorry not a time for jokes I guess)

-- Or admit you where wrong but say you simply cannot afford the changes he wants to make and he should either let you stay at the current rate or let you out of the lease.

[Oogie]

however on the next page it states that we must be off the premises by 11:30am on the date that the lease expires.

I also see that the deposit was not in an interest bearing account - *****. Already put down a deposit on the new place!

[Maelly]

Landlords and agencies, will they ever learn? I very much doubt it

[Shake&Bake]

Wait I just checked our existing lease - it does state that we must give 4 calendar months notice if we plan to leave when the contract expires... problem!

:( Downer - that's the crux of the matter - his referring to the previous contract which is coming to an end.


Well as of yet we have not paid the rent that is due this month - because we know he will most prob keep it because of this. Are we wrong in doing this? or should we just pay and hope for the best?


If you do leave without paying - you are still legally liable for the last months rent and three months after that if you have not given written notification.
If you up and disappear without paying, you can be held liable for loss of income up until the landlord finds a tenant. That could be more than three months.

I've been through a similar situation with my previous landlord.
I ended up leaving the deposit with him to cover the two month notice period and I'd been to the housing tribunal - there were more twists and turns in my story.
But it's coming down to the same thing:
Your contract states that there is a four month notice period and unfortunately it would seem you're liable for it.
Unless there's something in there which we don't know of.

I don't mean to be all doom and gloom, but just reacting on what info you have provided.

[Shake&Bake]

however on the next page it states that we must be off the premises by 11:30am on the date that the lease expires.

I also see that the deposit was not in an interest bearing account - *****. Already put down a deposit on the new place!

Now there are some interesting factoids which could work in your favour.
It's quite contradictory and not clear for the tenant as to what is required.

We could be going up and down with this all night ;)

Why not give the Housing Tribunal a call? Or go to their offices with your contract and they will point you in the right direction.
It's a free service and they will inform you as to what your options are based on the contract and it's little contradictions.

For Cape Town the details are:
http://www.capegateway.gov.za/eng/directories/public_entities/4200/10906


DESCRIPTION:

The Rental Housing Tribunal provides a free service to tenants and landlords in the Western Cape. Its main function is dispute settlement between tenants and landlords. (Read more on how to do this.)
Formed in 2001, the Tribunal consists of five members (including a chair and vice chairperson), appointed by the Provincial Minister of Housing, who have expertise in property management, housing development and consumer matters pertaining to rental housing. The Tribunal is assisted by the Support Component of the Directorate Housing Settlement.

The Tribunal seeks to:

Harmonise relationships between landlords and tenants in the rental housing sector.
Resolve disputes that arise due to unfair practices.
Inform landlords and tenants about their rights and obligations in terms of the Rental Housing Act.
Make recommendations to relevant stakeholders.
Its objectives are:
To promote stability in the rental housing sector in the Western Cape.
To create mechanisms to deal with disputes in the rental housing sector.
To facilitate, investigate, mediate and conduct hearings to resolve disputes.
To inform landlords and tenants of their rights and obligations should unfair and unlawful practices arise.
Hearings and mediations are help as close to the point of complaint as possible.

MAIL:
sdewet@pgwc.gov.za
TELEPHONE:
086 010 6166
FAX:
021 483 2060
STREET ADDRESS:
Department of Housing, 27 Wale Street, Ground Floor, Cape Town
POSTAL ADDRESS:
The Western Cape Rental Housing Tribunal, Private Bag X9083, Cape Town, 8000
CONTACT PERSON:
Simone de Wet
OVERSEEING GOVERNMENT BODY:
Customer Relations and Communication (Department of Local Government and Housing, Provincial Government of the Western Cape)

[Waaib]

Landlords and agencies, will they ever learn? I very much doubt it That's not fair. I've been a tenant and landlord more than once and 98% of the time it is a great relationship. 1% is bad communication and 1% is actual malicious intent.

[Oogie]

AFAIK their is not much more to it - other than plain stupidity for not reading everything 100% although we were always forced and rushed to do it - it's own fault.

We have not paid nor received a bil for the rates abd taxes over the past few years either. We only noticed that in the "new" contract after reading thru properly. Checked the previous and existing contracts I guess we liable for those periods to.

So if we wanna give 4 months notice how do we go about it? 0ne month left on old/existing contract... do we sign new one or what to do?

Not gonna give him money for nothing - would rather just stay then for 4 months and do things by the book -so to speak.

[DJ...]

They cannot tie you into a lease that has expired - simple as that, and they cannot force you to sign a new lease (unless of course this is all explicitly stated and you signed it). They also cannot force you to provide 4 month's notice for an expiring lease AFAIK - that is the landlord's responsibility. Why not scan the lease and post it here, removing all personal details? Does it explicitly state what will take place should 4 month's notice not be provided prior to the lease expiring?

[Waaib]

I reckon for the next 4 months you must pay. I'd also pay the one you owe immediately. For the new lease though if you want out simply refuse to accept the increase and he'll have to let you move out.

Edit:- Just a thought - 4 months is almost unheard of in terms of notice period. This landy has either had very bad luck and has been burnt before or treats people badly and gets burnt often.

[Shake&Bake]

AFAIK their is not much more to it - other than plain stupidity for not reading everything 100% although we were always forced and rushed to do it - it's own fault.

We have not paid nor received a bil for the rates abd taxes over the past few years either. We only noticed that in the "new" contract after reading thru properly. Checked the previous and existing contracts I guess we liable for those periods to.

So if we wanna give 4 months notice how do we go about it? 0ne month left on old/existing contract... do we sign new one or what to do?

Not gonna give him money for nothing - would rather just stay then for 4 months and do things by the book -so to speak.

Does it state in the old contract that you are liable for rates and taxes?
If not - you don't pay a fskcing cent to the landlord!
Also where are these bills?
I'd still say seek legal or free advice from the tribunal considering the "out by 11:30am on the day of expiry deal", before looking at going by the book.
By the book would then leave you:

Giving written notice of intent to vacate the premises.
Paying the last month on the contract.
Then staying and paying for another three months.


But on that last point, it's damn important to take your time reading though a clause(s) relating to your stay after the termination of the lease period.
Is it on a month to month basis?
Are there any allowances for continuation of your stay at the premises if you give notice in the time period you're now faced with.
The "be out by 11:30am" bit is still contradicting the 4 month notice period in this case - from my view anyway.

Be out by 11:30am on the day of termination of lease, means just that in plain simple English.

Go to a tribunal or find a friend of a friend who works with these kind of things and be sure of what that specific clause means to you.

[DJ...]

There are some legal beagle ambulance chasing types on the forum who might find it in their "hearts" (or whatever they use to pump blood around their body) to feign kindness and have a squiz over your lease if you ask nicely...

[Shake&Bake]

Why not scan the lease and post it here, removing all personal details? Does it explicitly state what will take place should 4 month's notice not be provided prior to the lease expiring?

I'd also like to see it - if possible.
What Waaib also says is true - 4 months is really unheard of :eek:

[Waaib]

Does it state in the old contract that you are liable for rates and taxes?

The way I understand it the old lease DOES say this. It seems the new contract is a copy of the old with new dates and rates. I think there is a valid point to be made if it was never collected during the period of the lease though. I reckon an agreement should be reached on this point if this is the case 50/50 or something like that. I reckon it's the landlords responsibility to make sure the correct amount of rent is paid.

[Waaib]

There are some legal beagle ambulance chasing types on the forum who might find it in their "hearts" (or whatever they use to pump blood around their body) to feign kindness and have a squiz over your lease if you ask nicely...

What would a beagle do with an ambulance if it caught it?

[DJ...]

What would a beagle do with an ambulance if it caught it?

Sue it, more than likely...

[Oogie]

thanks guys - appreciate all this advice.

I will try post up the existing lease - if I can fiure it out.

Owner wants reply as ap- I dont want to be responsible for 4 months rent + legal fees etc etc .

Yes exixting contract is much the same...

[Frankie]

Just really go through your contract that you have signed.

Look at the clauses relating to the notice period you should be giving on that.
If it's 4 months on the original contract you have signed, then you're in for a bit of a pickle. :o
1 month's notice will then not suffice.

Also look for anything relating to you not renewing and what terms and conditions there are for either staying at the property on a month to month basis, or what the "exit clause". (terminology may be wrong there)
But there could be a few clauses that could still throw a spanner in the works.

Your concern in essence should not be for the unsigned contract, but rather for your one that has now "expired".

Please have a read through the old/original and let us know or even post the clause(s) here if you're up to typing it all ;)

I think you have given the best advice here so far.

The other thing the OP should remember is that she is in breach of contract if she withholds rent in lieu of the deposit - you signed the contract that states clearly how the deposit is handled and that is to be used to cover any damages if any when you leave - if you left and there was damage the lessor would have no funds in hand to cover this.
He can also report you to the credit Bureau while you are in arrears as you say you are now.

If the new contract is not signed then the existing one remains in force - if the standard type lease agreement is used, then it likely has an annual increase and the details that at the end of the lease period it automatically reverts to a monthly bases with a notice period of typically one month, which appears to be four in your case.

Best to keep it above board, regardless of the lessor being a prick.

[Frankie]

My lease agreements have the lessor responsible for rates and body corporate levies, but the new lease has a new clause that the lessee will be responsible for any increase in rates and levies.

[AcidRaZor]

thanks guys - appreciate all this advice.

I will try post up the existing lease - if I can fiure it out.

Owner wants reply by tonight though - I dont want to be responsible for 4 months rent + legal fees etc etc.

Yes exixting contract is much the same... Cant believe we must pay rates and raxes... and 3 years back log... gonna be a "nice bill"

He can't really force you to give him an answer by tonight. However, like I've said before. If the contract expires end of this month and you had to give him 4 months notice for the termination of the contract, he had to supply you with the new contract 4 months prior to give you enough time to make up your mind, give him the 4 months notice he requires and then leave.

Having said that, if he does want an answer by tonight, ask him about the "be out by 11:30am on the termination of this contract" clause.

I would say this is stock standard a contract for a period of years, that if terminated before the date of the contract expiry, you needed to give 4 months notice, but if the contract runs it's entire term without being renewed, that you need to be out of the premises by 31st January 2009.

He is using scare tactics to make you guys jump and make a bad decision again. And wtf is this with paying a deposit on a new place already when this isn't sorted out yet?! Na-A! BAD GIRL! no go to my room!

[Shake&Bake]

Also what is the deal with the deposit not being paid into a trust/interest bearing account?

[Frankie]

He can't really force you to give him an answer by tonight. However, like I've said before. If the contract expires end of this month and you had to give him 4 months notice for the termination of the contract, he had to supply you with the new contract 4 months prior to give you enough time to make up your mind, give him the 4 months notice he requires and then leave.

Having said that, if he does want an answer by tonight, ask him about the "be out by 11:30am on the termination of this contract" clause.

I would say this is stock standard a contract for a period of years, that if terminated before the date of the contract expiry, you needed to give 4 months notice, but if the contract runs it's entire term without being renewed, that you need to be out of the premises by 31st January 2009.

He is using scare tactics to make you guys jump and make a bad decision again. And wtf is this with paying a deposit on a new place already when this isn't sorted out yet?! Na-A! BAD GIRL! no go to my room!

This is not how the standard lease agreements work - if you terminate before the end of the lease period it would state the notice period and also that you may be liable for longer if they cannot find a tenant ASAP, and it's not a case of being out the premises on the last day of the lease period because the standard contracts automatically roll-over to a short term lease agreement with most of the conditions still binding.

[Frankie]

I can post a PDF of one of my lease agreements, but don't see a way of posting this here - only pictures.

[Shake&Bake]

I can post a PDF of one of my lease agreements, but don't see a way of posting this here - only pictures.

Perhaps PM rpm or ic - perphaps one of the mods can too.
Then e-mail it to them and and it can be added as an attachment in your post.

[Frankie]

Perhaps PM rpm or ic - perphaps one of the mods can too.
Then e-mail it to them and and it can be added as an attachment in your post.

Sent a PM to rpm.

Here's the page that covers termination etc.

It appears that the OP selected the "Fixed lease period, thereafter termination by notice".

And it states the time of day the premises must be vacated on the last day of the lease which would be the last day of the notice period.

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/showphoto.php/photo/8803/size/big/cat/500

You might be able to download the image and zoom in a little more.

[Frankie]

Here's what it says about the deposit - quite different to what some are suggesting here.

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/showphoto.php/photo/8804/size/big/cat/500

[.Froot.]

1) Promises are only valid if it is on paper.
2) The contract expired so you have no legal connection to the property, ie no debts to the landlord.
3) Landlord is trying to screw you into the contract. :)


Hey everyone....

PLEASE ADVISE!!!

So to cut a long story (a little shorter) We have been renting a property for 3 years - with a few things that were promised to us in the begining that we never got but were able to live without. Our existing agreement expires 31 Jan '08 and a few months back I requested a renewal for a further 1 year. This was all done via email and fax as we rent directly from the owner who has since moved to the U.K and is never available. Anyway we were given the new contract and once hubby and I had read through it and had a think bout things we have changed our minds as we are not prepared/able to pay the increase that is due. We let the owner know on Friday that we are no longer renewing the contract (nothing has been signed yet for the new period)

The owner has not accepted this and is seeking legal advice...

What are my rights? The contract states that early termination must be done with a 4 month notice period - however the new contract has not been signed as we do not accept it - but have given 1 month's notice!

Now what?

[AcidRaZor]

This is not how the standard lease agreements work - if you terminate before the end of the lease period it would state the notice period and also that you may be liable for longer if they cannot find a tenant ASAP, and it's not a case of being out the premises on the last day of the lease period because the standard contracts automatically roll-over to a short term lease agreement with most of the conditions still binding.

Well there's a few contracts that are deemed "standard" floating around really. I should've worded it better.

Point is:

If she wanted to terminate the contract, 4 months notice had to be given
Because the contract expires, they don't need to give notice (as per the clause stating they need to vacate the premises)

That's why I said. The landlord was being a dumbass by not providing them with the lease renewal 5 months ago. If he knew the contract expires end of this month he can't expect them to stay on or give him proper notice if he didn't do his part. By just assuming they'll renew the lease he shot himself in the foot. Because legally, according to the contract he made them sign, they can vacate the premises at the end of the term of the contract without having to sign a renewal lease or give him 4 months notice.

It's in his contract. 4 months notice or vacate the premises the last day of the month when it expires.

Maybe I can throw another example at folk here.

You bought a house. You want to settle the house early. You need to give the bank 3 months notice that you're going to settle the house early otherwise you incur additional costs. Same goes for some personal loans and car loans.

However, if you run the term of the loan, you don't incur additional costs and they can't make you give them 3 months notice the month before or during your last payment is being made.

[Shake&Bake]

Acid - I get what you're saying and I'm also leaning towards that train of thought.

My only gripe/hiccup may be that, there is something else in the contract which goes against the simple philosophy of "out by 11:30am on termination/expiry of lease".

That's why;
a) Oogie should take that contract along to a lawyer or to a Housing Tirbunal
b) Scan and put the contract up here or somewhere else for scrutiny, so that we can assess what all the implications are. (Private details ommitted of course)

[Frankie]

Well there's a few contracts that are deemed "standard" floating around really. I should've worded it better.

Point is:

If she wanted to terminate the contract, 4 months notice had to be given
Because the contract expires, they don't need to give notice (as per the clause stating they need to vacate the premises)

That's why I said. The landlord was being a dumbass by not providing them with the lease renewal 5 months ago. If he knew the contract expires end of this month he can't expect them to stay on or give him proper notice if he didn't do his part. By just assuming they'll renew the lease he shot himself in the foot. Because legally, according to the contract he made them sign, they can vacate the premises at the end of the term of the contract without having to sign a renewal lease or give him 4 months notice.

It's in his contract. 4 months notice or vacate the premises the last day of the month when it expires.

Maybe I can throw another example at folk here.

You bought a house. You want to settle the house early. You need to give the bank 3 months notice that you're going to settle the house early otherwise you incur additional costs. Same goes for some personal loans and car loans.

However, if you run the term of the loan, you don't incur additional costs and they can't make you give them 3 months notice the month before or during your last payment is being made.
This may be so with some home loans, but I have a bond with ABSA and paid it off well in advance of the term, and there was no penalty payment at all - I can post a statement from this account.

[supersunbird]

Well there's a few contracts that are deemed "standard" floating around really. I should've worded it better.

Point is:

If she wanted to terminate the contract, 4 months notice had to be given
Because the contract expires, they don't need to give notice (as per the clause stating they need to vacate the premises)

That's why I said. The landlord was being a dumbass by not providing them with the lease renewal 5 months ago. If he knew the contract expires end of this month he can't expect them to stay on or give him proper notice if he didn't do his part. By just assuming they'll renew the lease he shot himself in the foot. Because legally, according to the contract he made them sign, they can vacate the premises at the end of the term of the contract without having to sign a renewal lease or give him 4 months notice.

It's in his contract. 4 months notice or vacate the premises the last day of the month when it expires.

Maybe I can throw another example at folk here.

You bought a house. You want to settle the house early. You need to give the bank 3 months notice that you're going to settle the house early otherwise you incur additional costs. Same goes for some personal loans and car loans.

However, if you run the term of the loan, you don't incur additional costs and they can't make you give them 3 months notice the month before or during your last payment is being made.

Thats makes sense. The contract expires naturally, no need for notice to be given because they are not leaving before the contract expires.

[Frankie]

Thats makes sense. The contract expires naturally, no need for notice to be given because they are not leaving before the contract expires.
Unless the contract was drawn up on a "Fixed lease period, thereafter termination by notice" basis.

[Dolby]

I haven't read all of this thread - but what percentage was the increase?

[Hoof-Hearted]

Also be very careful about admitting liability for rates and taxes. I don't know about anywhere else in the country, but in Jozi the owner and not the tenant is responsible to the city for these. The responsibility of the tenant is only for electricity and water.
I'm part of a property syndicate and this is true on all of our properties.
On all of our leases, if either party does not renew/cancel prior to the expiry of the lease, the agreement automatically reverts to a month to month basis. According to our legal advice at the time, this had to be specifically stated in the contract or we, as lessors, would be taking a hit if anything went wrong.

[Oogie]

Hi just a quick one, im tryin to do this on my phone... Hope it works. Anyway i am not sure how to go bout any of this goin to the estate agent this am to speak to some1 their... And get our deposit on new place back. It was fixed 2 year contract that expires end this month. I dont how to post the lease agreement but maybe if someone can help me they could pm an email ad and il email it this evening when im home. It is so difficult cos he so far away and not willing to discuss, just wants lawyer involved. Its only a standard 10% annual increase and couple of other things we not satisfied with for all that we can get a much better place... And thru an agency... We have had endless issues with plumbing, stove, geyser etc and its always a pain to get hold of him. We have no contact numbers for anyone in SA and although the uk time dif is minimal its always impossible but thats another thread i guess Lol x

[koeks]

however on the next page it states that we must be off the premises by 11:30am on the date that the lease expires.

I also see that the deposit was not in an interest bearing account - *****. Already put down a deposit on the new place!

Just move out and tell him to give you your deposit back. You will fight this in court if push comes to shove... they like scaring people...

[Dolby]

And an agent is not much better - depending who you choose ;)

Word of warning : DON'T do Just Letting. Just do a search on here to see how many people battled to get their deposits back. Also check the complaints at www.hellopeter.com.

I used to rent my place through them and they're just as bad to both tenant/landlord.

[Frankie]

Just move out and tell him to give you your deposit back. You will fight this in court if push comes to shove... they like scaring people...
One problem with this advice is that it can get the OP black listed.

[Frankie]

And an agent is not much better - depending who you choose ;)

Word of warning : DON'T do Just Letting. Just do a search on here to see how many people battled to get their deposits back. Also check the complaints at www.hellopeter.com.

I used to rent my place through them and they're just as bad to both tenant/landlord.

My properties are let through and agent and it's been easy going - the agent and their lease agreement acts in the interests of both parties (lessor and lessee), but I have heard bad reports about Just Letting - it seems that they are only looking after the lessor.

Many here suggest withholding rent in lieu of the deposit - this is illegal and in one case a few years back when I had a useless agent letting my property the tenants didn't pay for a few months, and when they left it cost about 10 times the deposit to repair the damage, and they still had the cheek to ask for their deposit.
The lease agreements make it very clear what the deposit is used for and how, and don't sign it if you don't intend adhering to that.

[Frankie]

Also be very careful about admitting liability for rates and taxes. I don't know about anywhere else in the country, but in Jozi the owner and not the tenant is responsible to the city for these. The responsibility of the tenant is only for electricity and water.
I'm part of a property syndicate and this is true on all of our properties.
On all of our leases, if either party does not renew/cancel prior to the expiry of the lease, the agreement automatically reverts to a month to month basis. According to our legal advice at the time, this had to be specifically stated in the contract or we, as lessors, would be taking a hit if anything went wrong.

This is the way mine works (through and agent) and I believe it's is the industry standard, although there are other options.

[Shake&Bake]

FFS some of the advice coming in here is scary :eek:

It's a contract, which if not followed to the letter is going to have Oogie in trouble.
Really guys - I was also of the opinion to just fight it out, but this situation should be looked at sensibly and in a calm manner.
Naturally we want to fight for the Oogie, but the contract is still there.
There may be some ambiguity or a loophole, with relation to the "out by 11:30am" deal, but there is no advice that can be given here until we see the full contract (IMO).

Oogie - which area are you in?
I would not take the word of an Estate Agent in this case.
I've posted the number for the Housing Tribunal - give them a call - it's a sharecall number and from my experience I waited about a minute to have my call answered.

You can spend your day posting away here and we're more than happy to assist, but you need clarity and I'm afraid that you're not going to get it here as there are so many conflicting statements/advice coming through.

Give them a call: 086 010 6166 and speak to a consultant, get piece of mind and then go ahead and fill us in. ;) (or get the contract up somewhere for us to see)

/2c

[Dolby]

My properties are let through and agent and it's been easy going - the agent and their lease agreement acts in the interests of both parties (lessor and lessee), but I have heard bad reports about Just Letting - it seems that they are only looking after the lessor.

No - they look after themselves, only.

After a year, I took over managing my the electricity and water account myself - as they let the bill get to R6000.00. However they still took the full R850.00 commission

They never once checked the property, or even knew where it was.

They didn't know when the tenant actually left and subletted to his sister.

Often, I'd get the rent 20-30th of the month - and only after many phone calls/fights.

Work carried out through their 'repair man' (R3600.00) was not carried out at all - despite me paying the money. Since I hadn't been to the house in almost 2 years, I've only just found out.

They actually refunded two months commission for bad management of the property, as admission of guilt.

And many, many other issues.

[Frankie]

No - they look after themselves, only.

After a year, I took over managing my the electricity and water account myself - as they let the bill get to R6000.00. However they still took the full R850.00 commission

They never once checked the property, or even knew where it was.

They didn't know when the tenant actually left and subletted to his sister.

Often, I'd get the rent 20-30th of the month - and only after many phone calls/fights.

Work carried out through their 'repair man' (R3600.00) was not carried out at all - despite me paying the money. Since I hadn't been to the house in almost 2 years, I've only just found out.

They actually refunded two months commission for bad management of the property, as admission of guilt.

And many, many other issues.
I've had worse than this letting a property out a good few years ago, but the agent I currently use has a good reputation and has performed well for the three years I've been with them - the lessee's have the same opinion.

[Frankie]

Hi just a quick one, im tryin to do this on my phone... Hope it works. Anyway i am not sure how to go bout any of this goin to the estate agent this am to speak to some1 their... And get our deposit on new place back. It was fixed 2 year contract that expires end this month. I dont how to post the lease agreement but maybe if someone can help me they could pm an email ad and il email it this evening when im home. It is so difficult cos he so far away and not willing to discuss, just wants lawyer involved. Its only a standard 10% annual increase and couple of other things we not satisfied with for all that we can get a much better place... And thru an agency... We have had endless issues with plumbing, stove, geyser etc and its always a pain to get hold of him. We have no contact numbers for anyone in SA and although the uk time dif is minimal its always impossible but thats another thread i guess Lol x

PM rpm (Admin) and he'll give you an email adrress to use and then he'll post it to the forum like he did with mine which can be found in this thread.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=152546

This is what I'd expect to be the industry norm.

[AcidRaZor]

One problem with this advice is that it can get the OP black listed.

Hi Frankie, I suggest you go read up on the NCA act a bit. The blacklisting laws has changed a lot and someone can't just blacklist you. If you were talking about a different blacklisting method then okay... cool :D

Without the two clauses handling the expiry of the contract and the vacating of the premises we're pretty much just thumbsuck guessing what she can do.

But normally it's a question of, if terminated before lease expires, 4 months notice. If not, no need to do 4 months and just vacate at end of term.

I checked with a buddy of mine @ adams & adams and she says that is usually the case. So oogie can just move out without giving notice because the contract expires.

however, we do need to know word for word what is in the contract so that proper advice can be given.

I'm sure Oogie + hubby are pretty young still by the sounds of things :D no offense meant. But yea. Unfortunately these things you have to go through sometimes

[Frankie]

Hi Frankie, I suggest you go read up on the NCA act a bit. The blacklisting laws has changed a lot and someone can't just blacklist you. If you were talking about a different blacklisting method then okay... cool :D

Without the two clauses handling the expiry of the contract and the vacating of the premises we're pretty much just thumbsuck guessing what she can do.

But normally it's a question of, if terminated before lease expires, 4 months notice. If not, no need to do 4 months and just vacate at end of term.

I checked with a buddy of mine @ adams & adams and she says that is usually the case. So oogie can just move out without giving notice because the contract expires.

however, we do need to know word for word what is in the contract so that proper advice can be given.

I'm sure Oogie + hubby are pretty young still by the sounds of things :D no offense meant. But yea. Unfortunately these things you have to go through sometimes

I'm not knowledgable on the details with regards getting black listed, but I would guess that going in arrears with rent, which some here are suggesting, could do that. The next rental company may also require a reference, which is another reason to stay above board.
It appears that Oogie is committed to keeping it legit.

Yes I agree that the only way to give Oogie the best advice is to see her specific contract, but some here have without confirming the detail of her specific contract are advising her to just vacate and withhold rent in lieu of the deposit - the legality of this could be argued, but it's not the correct thing to do if you've signed a contract that clearly states that's not how it works.

I checked with another agent in my area and with a blank contract from Just Letting and these are similarly worded to my contracts and what Hoof-Hearted described, and that is, a contract for a fixed term automatically reverting to a month to month with a specific notice period required.

[Frankie]

Oogie, please get back to us on how things panned out for you - we hope it worked out for you, and we can all learn from the end result.

[Mephisto_Helix]

Regarding getting a deposit back ...... is it within the landlords 'rights' to withhold the deposit for up to 30days? Or is he blowing hot air?

[Frankie]

Regarding getting a deposit back ...... is it within the landlords 'rights' to withhold the deposit for up to 30days? Or is he blowing hot air?

In one section is says after repairs etc. and within the time limits of the ACT. , but if nothing is owning by the lessee for damages etc. then the deposit with the interest must be paid over within seven days.

I guess that if repairs at the cost of the lessee are needed, then the remainder, if any, of the deposit can only be returned once all the repair costs are finalised, and that's where the reference to the ACT comes in.

[Mephisto_Helix]

In one section is says after repairs etc. and within the time limits of the ACT. , but if nothing is owning by the lessee for damages etc. then the deposit with the interest must be paid over within seven days.

I guess that if repairs at the cost of the lessee are needed, then the remainder, if any, of the deposit can only be returned once all the repair costs are finalised, and that's where the reference to the ACT comes in.

Thanks bru ...... what makes the situation even worse is that the flat was given a new paint job less than a month ago and various things which weren't working or non-existent were fixed/installed.

[Frankie]

Thanks bru ...... what makes the situation even worse is that the flat was given a new paint job less than a month ago and various things which weren't working or non-existent were fixed/installed.
You're welcome, but I don't understand how this effects you.

[Mephisto_Helix]

Family having kark with a landlord ........ I said I'd have a squiz and glean some info for them.

[Frankie]

Family having kark with a landlord ........ I said I'd have a squiz and glean some info for them.
Did the landlord paint and fix these things, after your family moved out ?
Was your family responsible for these things? - If they were then they should first be shown the costs and proof that quotes for the repairs were sought from at least three companies, and that the quote is reasonable.

Some landlords exploit tenants because generally he's more familiar with the rights of each party, compared to the tenant who's generally unfamiliar with this.

[Lord Anubis]

Why can't the OP sign the contract, give notice, move out and rent this place to someone else and basically forward the cash to the owner and act as agent for him for those 4 months..win-win? There are a lot of people looking to rent!

[Ethel]

Why can't the OP sign the contract, give notice, move out and rent this place to someone else and basically forward the cash to the owner and act as agent for him for those 4 months..win-win? There are a lot of people looking to rent!
I would think that all rental agreements have a clause that prohibits sub-letting which is what you are suggesting.

[Mephisto_Helix]

Did the landlord paint and fix these things, after your family moved out ?
Was your family responsible for these things? - If they were then they should first be shown the costs and proof that quotes for the repairs were sought from at least three companies, and that the quote is reasonable.

Some landlords exploit tenants because generally he's more familiar with the rights of each party, compared to the tenant who's generally unfamiliar with this.

Sorry for being a bit confusing :o ..... my family did all the painting and installing of things, the useless landlord didn't want to know anything about it so they just did it themselves.