Letter taken off Hellkom's Vent. Comments.

[BTTB]

<b>I found this Vent on Hellkom and I found it intriguing. Care to comment? In the mean time I'm going to challenge Mr Bestenbier to register on MyADSL and debate the issues he has raised.</b>

Liansky Bestenbier
Location:
Cape Town
Comments:
First of all, any site that has Solidarities website listed as an important site need to understand that 1994 happened 10 years ago. That said....

On Thursday evening at about 10pm i phoned telkom precisely because competition will be hitting the market. As expected, they arrived the very next day, fixed the low hanging telephone line, the open telephone socket, and my connection hasn't failed. All in all, competition rules. The problem is this. Telkom has already established itself as a company with immense power over the minds of the South African consumer. All it needs to do to limit the impact competition will have on it's share of the market is improve it's services and reduce some of it's prices. As has been proven to me yesterday, improving services is a relatively simple task for a company with a healthy bank balance. Nuff said.... service improves.... prices goes down... telkom regains it's market value... competition suffers.. Telkom rules..... prices goes up.... service standards decline.. people unhappy.... moves to competition..... telkom reduces prices, improves service... telkom regains it's share of the market... the monopoly screws us over again.... etc....

All you moaners are probably white(thus we have the solidarity comedy hour) and incapable of understanding what struggle means. Most of you aree just interested in satisfying yourselfs and most you use images of poor starving blacks as a means of faking moral values. What you need to do is decide: do you want to take your complaints one step further and turn it into real viable action or do you want to get kicked in the nuts over and over again by some extremely clever Telkom execs. Do not underestimate the execs at Telkom. They are bloody smart. Instead of complaining, why not be decisive in your actions by commiting yourselfs to changing telephone operators as soon as the new company arrives, thereby significantly reducing Telkom's ability to screw you over repeatedly. Also, we also have to avoid the situation where companies that weilds great power within their specific market, like the banking sector, indirectly collude to screw over the South African company even further. Why not lobby to tighten the anti-collusion laws for a few years, but only focusing on the telecommunication industry, as well as the banking sector. What i see with the cellphone companies is not neccesarily a case where cell companies have to charge higher prices due to Telkom's monopoly. What i see is a situation where the telecommunications industry(and this includes all the internet companies like Telkom and uninetwork) looks up to Telkom as the pricing leader, and at the same time, use Telkim's pricing as an excuse for trying to screw us over. All in all, if Telkom can be tamed into becoming user friendly, then we'll have R20 a month internet, 30C a minute cell calls, etc. Point taken? Good....

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">

[Nickste]

Interesting views...

Nick Smit
broadband@nicksmit dot za dot net

[LethalChicken]

Agree, interesting view, but why bring racial issues into this, doen't we have enough problems without that ?

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[mbs]

It's only interesting to the extent that it provides further evidence of the unfortunate tendency of people not to think clearly and logically, but instead to confound the outcome through the inclusion of irrelevancies - usually caused by using the wrong part of the brain, and sometimes no brain at all...

[Chris]

Interesting views but as Blobnow said, why bring racial views into this?

[James]

100% some good points but i know every one has said it, WHY THE F BRING RACE INTO IT!!! That 1 statement has made my blood boil!!!

There is no peace without war!!!

[LethalChicken]

Just to spice things up a bit ... I'm from the country where the original Solidarity was first started .. and it was ALL white pple [:)]

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[MaD]

I hate to point out the obvious to Liansky - but you are just sitting there typing that... do what you say we should be doing instead of preaching that which you would not dare practice.

You've posted a number of borderline racist comments on the VENT - rather don't come around if that's your attitude, Hellkom is for *everyone*. I can easily afford Telkom's products, but most of the country can't, that's why the site was started. It wasn't started so that 'Whites' can pay less, it was started so that EVERYONE could pay less. Your views are jaded and uses colour of the skin to fuel argument and justification. Its quite disturbing, chap. As for Solidarity - they're doing all they can to save thousands of people ending up without jobs - if you think that's wrong you're a lost cause.

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">

[stoke]

Liansky - what are you on about ? I've had plenty of quick responses from Teklom before, I think that your "service is improving" point is moot, and your theory on Teklom killing the SNO is also moot, because of the FACT that I can open up a company providing telecoms services, so there will always be competition. I don't care about the SNO, freedom to compete is required and has been given.

Yes - the execs at Teklom are "bloody smart", but the technology is advancing at a phenominal rate, and that huge slow beaurocratic monster will not be able to adjust to the new technologies as quickly as a new, young and smart company can. Their overhead costs means that they cannot drop prices by 250%. Wireless + VOIP is such a huge unknown (and potentially so cheap that it's scary) that Teklom are shaking in their boots. Also - we could replace the non-urban cell network with VOIP mesh.

Backing a new company just because they are not Teklom does not make sense. Backing the best company does make sense. Upstarts must be strong enough to survive on their own, by providing what we require.

Hows about this for a picture of the future instead of yours:
1 Feb 2005 - 2 new big service providers appear (e.g. IS + SNO). 1 Mar - the list of small service providers is now standing at 20 (primarily using VOIP to provide cheap person to person calls). 1 Apr - there are now 50 small service providers. 1 May - the 50 small service providers team up and become a force of their own, they start providing more complex solutions. And so it grows.

NO - you cannot tame Teklom - what dream world are you living in ? Like any other unkillable monster - it has to be starved.

What we need is unity through improved perception, understanding and education - not stupid racially skewerd propoganda.

Warning - Teklom is going to have to get rid of a lot of staff to remain competitive, thats why they want clarity and equal treatment.

Oh well - monday morning - could spell, think ... better ...

[Liansky]

To BlobNow and James, to answer your question. Look, i don't like to be mean to people, but i know white people and i know how they think. Half of my life was spent amongst white people. I have a weekly argument with a racist AWB supporting old women who i get along famously with. That was just a hopefull attempt to spare myself the race based justification that whites use in an attempt to make me feel that i can have a decent conversation with you guys without wanting to bleed out my Goddamn eardrums. Sorry if it made you feel uncomfortable, but ya gotta be cruel to be kind.

In response to Stoke. Dude, seriously now, who do you work for? What you are giving me is the populist belief that the markets will automatically adjust itself and create an efficient outcome, but that's mere theory not implemented by any country i know of.
Look, today i found out that Cell C made me sign an airtight contract that does not allow for me, as the consumer to be protected against mistakes made by them. In short, i'm screwed. I renewed my contract about 2 months ago, recieved a phone as well as a car charger, and charged my phone. The goddamn phone burnt like a mofo after the second plug in. Not my fault and not my problem. I want a new phone. Fair? Of course. After two months, Cell C is still stalling. I decided to cancel my contract, but found out that i was screwed pver so badly, that if i had to cancel now, i'd be broke for about 3 months. Ya gotta pay the bill for the rest of the 24 month period. Fair? Of course not.
The point is, we as South African consumers are being screwed over on a daily basis by every goddamn corporate around. We've heard about over pricing within the banking and automobile sectors. Well, it's kinda like that everywhere. Why? Cause we let them.
There's little thing called, collusion. Collusion is when rivals within the same or different sector work together. It's illegal to do it directly, but perfectly legal when done indirectly, in other words, when they work together without direct contact. In every industry, there are leaders, and is these leaders that set prices. In every industry, there are excuses, and since newspapers depend on corporate advertising, this hardly gets mentioned. The only time when these excuses are revealed to be false, is when the media cannot deny that it is false. To deny it would reveal their opinions to be irrelevant and thus, the media becomes irrelecvant, and more importantly, unprofitable.
Do you know what i think should be done? Screw market theory. Adjust the markets yourself. Create uncertainty amongst the competitors. It's only with certainly that indirect collusion, and thus, consumer nut kicking becomes possible. With uncertainty, corporates begin to compete for greater market share, because they need greater market share to survive. With certainty, they are assured of being first or fourth. With uncertainty, they don't know if they will become bankrupt today, or tommorow. Thus i say, tighten the anti-colluion laws, I honestly don't like being pissed on by the corporates. As a South African, i'm busy drowning in corporate urine. Make anti-colluion such, that any contact between the different players becomes mind boggling and risky. Take for example, a raise in prices. Absa decides that it can screw us over more by charging more and thus, make more money(do you like being bamkrupt?). They go to the media, announce their intentions. This is merely a sign to the rest of the banking to raise their prices. The banking sector says, okay then. Absa raises their prices, we raises our prices, we laugh our way(once again), to the bank(no pun intended), and nobody loses. Well, the banks don't lose, but crap. I'm broke again.

A powerfull lobby group needs to be created that serves the ineterest of all. Soldarity serves the interests fo whites. Even if they do succeed in getting Telkom to save jobs, it will mean nothing to me as well as meaning nothing to the majority in this country.
I always take my cue from the way the ANC structured themselves. Mandela said in his speech during the Rivonia trails, "I fought against white oppresion. I fought against black oppresion". Despite what you might think, this is the mentality of ANC members. Madiba is a product of the ANC. He's loyalty towards the ANC is militantly sound, because he knows what made him. The ANC made him.
Firstly, this aint no political statement. Vote for whomever you please. I'm just saying that the ANC remains strong precisely, despite what you might think, because it takes a unified multiracial stand. Do you thank we forgave you because we're oh so peaceloving angels born from a nation of miracles? God no! It's a belief that we have been taught and the very belief that the struggle was based. The struggle wasn't one against whites. The struggle was against apartheid.
The point is, we might disagree about AA, BEE, etc, but we cannot allow ourselfs to be divided when fighting a beast that is called, the corporate world. Whites got the money, we've got the numbers. Combine that and we have something powerfull.
Lastly, do not ever think that fighting a good fight is based on the theory that 'good overcomes evil'. If good is to overcome evil, then good has to do a whole lot of goddamn research. A starting point is the comstitution itself. Now, i'm pretty sure that Cell C screwed me over quite unconstitutionally. what say you?

"Today, he lays down his spear." Nelson Mandela remembering Beyers Naude...

[BTTB]

Thanks for sharing your views Liansky. [8D]
I will remain neutral here and leave the forum to make comments.

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">

[Liansky]

PS: Telkom came third as the most admired brand in a study done by the Sunday Times... bout sums it up....

"Today, he lays down his spear." Nelson Mandela remembering Beyers Naude...

[Perdition]

I agree with the others, I still fail to see how race has anything to do with this. Liansky, to say you know how white people think is a very generalised (not to mention dangerous) statement. Not every white person or black person thinks the same thus creating a serious hole in your argument. I agree with you that corporations are screwing us over but to bring race into this will not help your argument. Please leave your chip at the door next time.

[LethalChicken]

"Half of my life was spent amongst white people."

Come on you make this sound like we the apes from guerillas in the mist ... I'll agree with the other people's opinion that you do seem to have a chip on your shoulder and you are using reverse-racism to make yourself feel better. I don't know you so I'm not going to say that I'm either a better or worse person then you are, but I must point out that the fact that you metioned race made your point lose a lot of credibility. As you might have noticed nobody actually discussed your points but the fact that you are being racist.

Think of it this way, if I (being white) wrote a page article on the evils of telkom (and maybe even included a few good points) but started with a statement like "Telkom is Crap because the black guy stuffed it up", you would not bother reading any further, you would have labeled me as a racist bastard and anything I would have said in my article would have been lost.

hmm the joys of democracy ... you have the right to hate veryone equally ...

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[mbs]

Were issues of colour really relevant in this context, it should be apparent that the dominant colour is neither black nor white, but a garish green. Concerning issues of group belief, it should be clear that political ideology is inconsequential, whereas uncoloured consumer advocacy is indeed the prime motivator. As far as group tactics and action is concerned, this forum has indeed been the origin of such, as a thorough perusal of the diverse topics on this forum will prove...

[Liansky]

Blobnow, you make a valid point, but if truth be told.... if a black man makes such a statement, it would most turn out to be true. That is the basic point i'm trying to make, wether that truth hurts or not. Look, if i was on a forum with a whole buncha black or coloured people, i would most probably try to get them to first avoid any inconseqeuntial arguments before actually turning to dialogue. I mean, it honestly makes my blood boil when i constantly hear about how government is screwing up, when in actual fact, it is doing a great job of managing a very unequal and abnormal economy. That's basically a generalised argument based on skin colour. In other words, i'm being told that i cannot manage anything because i am coloured. When you know you're perfectly capable, and someone says you're not, what do you do?? do you feel like continuing with communicating with this person or persons? Coming back to your example. How did you feel about being generalised upon? That's how i feel whenever i enter Hellkom or any white owned site with whites as the majority, which in fact, is almost always. As i said before, i know a lot of whites. Whites commit as many acts of corruption as blacks. The other day i was sitting with the cousin of a friend whose a white afrikaner. He's a policeman. I won't go into detail, but he tells me how corrupt the police force is. Everyone is corrupt, black and white, but somehow, the focus is always placed on how corrupt the black guys are. Point taken?? I don't want for my president to be atackked unjustifiably just cause it's black.

Ya know, the irony of all these government attacks is, some arguments are quite valid. For example, i understand that government wanted to give Telkom a competitive advantage, but did the benefits outweight the cost? Unfortunately, these arguments are never substantiated and always designed to attack the black government. I don't know all the facts about the argument, but i sure as hell know that government aint screweing up..... point taken??

Tell you what.... let's drop race and move on... argue, but before you argue, ask yourself if this is a race based argument or wether it is a valid argument based on Telkom's corporate greed. Only if your honest with yourself, can we actually throw together ideas that will move beyond this forum and into the real world. In fact, i smaak for a good ol fight. Do you?

"Today, he lays down his spear." Nelson Mandela remembering Beyers Naude...

[LethalChicken]

Government: Wheteher it's a black or white governemnt they will always be picked on.
Corruption: Nobody brought up a corruption based on race issue.

President: He's not just your president, he's mine too ... even though I did not vote for him, the fact that I live in this country and pay taxes towards the South African government ( Is started working in 1995 so ALL my taxes went to the ANC government) .. I therefore have as much right to complain about this government as you do.

And now for my view on this:
Liansky, I think you are a racist, yes a racist. You are the eternal victim, whatever is wrong blame on the white man. Whatever you don't get your way, it's the white man's fault. Whatever you want, the white man must give you ... why .. because you DESERVE it ...

And lastly .. this one was funny ...

--- if a black man makes such a statement, it would most turn out to be true ---
this is kind of "If a man makes a statement in the forest and there is no woman to hear him is he still worng?"




We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[rpm]

Hi folks

Although some of the arguments in this thread is of value and relevant to our telecommunications environment, it is currently more about race and racial issues. I am receiving complaints about this topic but would not like to close it yet as something good might still come from this (like mbs’s comment [:D])…a change in direction will be of value here.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

[LethalChicken]

IMHO I'd say close it as it has long lost it's informative side ... And let's not involve any issues OTHER then those directly related to the issue at hand in future posts ...

As far as change of direction goes ... consider it changed [;)]

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[stoke]

Lainsky - I'm capped so apologies for the slow response. Giggle.

You said (to me) - "What you are giving me is the populist belief that the markets will automatically adjust itself and create an efficient outcome".

I simply do not think in those terms.

I'm saying that the freedom has been given to small operators to provide telecoms services. We've got to push that "freedom" wide open so that hundreds of small operators becomes a reality - preferably using wireless technology. Once these small operators are in existance we will be closer to joining them all up - right to the top of Africa. (eg. Kruger National Park (What an unbelievable success.))

FORWARD:
I'm going to find out what the absolute minimum requirements are to get a license and then post them here (Not this tainted thread) so that we can see what this "freedom" actually is, and where it needs improvement. Obviously some of the facts are still to be decided by our esteemed minister - but I'm sure that I can get hold of something concrete by next week.

LAINSKY (CHALLENGE) - what are you going to do ?

[Spamtheman]

I actually have a slightly different place to apportion blame, let's see who agrees with me.

Point 1:
Telkom is a business, a corporate entity. As a result the only people that Telkom has any responsibility towards are it's shareholders. The only driving goal of any business is to maximise shareholder value. Any action that reduces shareholder value (for whatever reason) is grounds for litigation. Therefore to avoid litigation each director must do everything in their power to increase shareholder value, whether that be lying, false advertising or lobbying. They just musn't get caught, because that would reduce shareholder value.

Point 2:
Telkom enjoys the benefits of a parastatal. This is not Telkoms fault. Telkom does not control legislation, elected or appointed officials do. The failure to regulate business (in this case Telkom) therefore lies with the goverment.

Point 3:
The goverment hold shares in Telkom. The goverment is the entity that (should) regulates telkom. This is a blatant conflict of interests. However we voted for the individuals who are failing to do anything about Telkom, either because it doesn't seem important to them or because of lobbying. But we keep electing them.

Basically we get the politicians we deserve, posting comments on a forum is a fantastic way of venting and has probably saved me several thousand Rands over the years by not breaking bits of computer but it really doesn't change anything. The correct response is to contact your local Member of parliment, write letters, organise some sort of e-mail spam to MP's. Make them aware of the situation. While the average man on the street (black or white or coloured or indian or ****ing bushman) doesn't care about the internet I'm sure he'd be pretty pissed off that Telkom by itself adds 1% to inflation. Or how many companies refuse to invest locally because of the cost of doing business. If these people can be educated as to what <b>net effect</b> Telkom has on their lives it could really become an issue that politicians would pay attention to.

[BTTB]

Excellent Viewpoint Spamtheman.[:)]

Something positive is coming out of this thread.

<b><hr noshade size="1"></b><font size="2"><font color="red"><b>You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.</b></font id="red"></font id="size2">

[nOhIwAy]

Hi Liansky,

I find your viewpoint refreshing and interesting - I am not in the least offended by your color references and I think that some of your points are valid.

I see no need to "take you on" or to contextualise your comments, because you were actually invited to express your views on this forum, which you did and when you do so there is talk of closing the topic.

Some reacted in exactly the way you might have predicted in your initial post and your perceptions were accurate.

Keep on let's hear some more from you and how myadsl might increase its spectrum.

[Spamtheman]

I find Liansky's viewpoints utterly useless. His points are ill thought out and seem to be deliberately offensive.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">incapable of understanding what struggle means<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

How old are you that you "know" what struggle means? How does skin colour have anything to do with a discussion on telecommunications?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">telkom reduces prices, improves service... telkom regains it's share of the market... the monopoly screws us over again.... etc....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here you display a lack of understanding of freemarket economics. If it will increase shareholder value, a company will have good service and low prices. However currently that would mean spending more on trained and happy staff while reducing their prices. Currently this would not increase shareholder value because their is no negative effect assosciated with mistreating it's customers and charging the maximum that the market can bear.

The two alternatives are a well regulated market, with a few companies who's prices are regulated by goverment (icasa) or a completely free market with no regulations. This would increase the number of companies involved in the sector dramatically but it would probably fail due to the large financial resources of telkom, who could quite comfortably operate at a loss for a few years to kill off any competition.

Now currently since the existing politicians get the majority of the vote irrespective of their actions towards large companies and those companies are quite happy to invest large sums of money in them, why should the politicians modify their behaviour towards said companies?

People are not altruistic and ethical, to expect politicians to be is naive and stupid. Unless some kind of negative re-inforcement (not getting elected) is threatened what possible motivation could they have for behaving any differently?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In other words, i'm being told that i cannot manage anything because i am coloured<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Given the whining idiotic tone of your posting I would suggest that you cannot manage because you lack the capacity and skills required, not because you're coloured. If anyone has actually told you that you cannot manage because of the colour of your skin and you haven't taken them to labour court then that's just one more reason why you shouldn't ever manage anything. Ever.

[MaD]

Liansky we should meet for a beer and I can then explain to you how wrong your generalisations are and how racism is a bad thing. I agree that corporates can be bad, but I disagree with all of your racial comments and references, that is what separated the people of our country in the first place and which should be stamped out like a bad rash. Drop the 'colour of the skin' tirade and then we can have a decent debate.

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">

[Spamtheman]

Agreed, sorry for the rant ;)

[LethalChicken]

Asone of the stirrers in this post may I suggest we close this topic as nothing of great value is going to come out of this and just learn from this whole post and chalk it up to experience ...

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[MaD]

Or maybe transfer it to www.mypolitics.co.za :)

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">

[LethalChicken]

no such site ... *DING* idea .. I've been looking for something to do with my extra 3GB of hosting space [:)]

We are Telkom - Resistance is Futile - You will be Assimilated

[James]

Liansky:
Unfortunatley it is only the people such as yourself that screw this country up and create a chasm between races. This topic had no need to mension colour and here you have succesfully created a divide. You have spend half your life around white, well I have spent my entire life around blacks and whites. The only problem now is people like you making comments like this and the belief that BEE and AF are the only ways forward, and lay all the blame on the whites. Great stuff. 10 years of democracy and all you can do is moan and blame. Shut up and make the country better by not seeing colour and just live life.

There is no peace without war!!!

[Liansky]

Thank you, nOhIwAy. I appreciate the gesture...

Anyways, i'm gonna be blunt. Close this post, and this site becomes irrelevant. It will send out the wrong message to my people and when that happens, we once again divide and nothing happens. You might think i'm being disrespectfull, but i view disrespect to be the questioning of my intellect. Do i question yours?? I'm being honest. I'm not saying that you'll believe bull****. I'm saying that if i talk bull****, you'll have the intellectual capacity to see that. If you do not see that, you question your own intellectual capacty, and thus, you force me into questioning yours...

Mad, my name is Liansky Bestenbier. The reason i enthusiastically embrace your invitation is because i like diverse opinion and i like to experience diversity. I despise having to remain behind racial barriers because it limits ones own scope. I was sitting in bar earlier with a friend, and i observed the racial divide, as i always do. If you're serious, please do message me, and we'll debate.

Spamtheman, i'm a 23 year old economics student. To me, its absolutely amazing that text book theory as far as economics is concerned, can actually be applied and observed in reality. I was honestly flabbergasted. I mean, text book theory aint suppose to be so real. It is. Wow....

"Today, he lays down his spear." Nelson Mandela remembering Beyers Naude...

[MaD]

Liansky, thanks for your cell number, will call you in the morning.

<font color="navy"><font size="1"><b>Where others have progress, we have Telkom.</b>
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za</font id="size1"></font id="navy">