16 year old - Child Porn ?

[daveza]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20090325174702779C104825


The police have warned that anyone in possession of pictures or video of a young Phoenix, Durban, girl having sex with four fellow pupils could be charged.

This after a Phoenix businessman was arrested this week for being in possession of child pornography.

Police Superintendent Jay Naicker said on Tuesday that Enbanathan Govender(cor), 31, had been arrested on Tuesday after officers received a tip that he was in possession of child pornography.

"The images were found on his cellphone. The pictures were of pupils from a local school engaged in sexual acts," he said.

The images are of a 16-year-old Phoenix girl who was filmed engaging in sexual acts with four fellow pupils on February 26. The girl had gone to a party where she and others had allegedly consumed alcohol and taken drugs, and engaged in sexual activities.


Consensual sex for 16 year olds is legal or not ? How does this count as child porn ?

Child porn is little kiddies and old pigs not this.

[killadoob]

Well yea if your a consenting person at 16 to have sex i am not sure how it can be kiddie porn.

I thought kiddie porn was like 14 and younger maybe even 12 and under because if you look at some 14 year old girls they do not like kiddies to me.

[noxibox]

Do they even have any evidence to prove this guy knew they were 16?

The whole child pornography thing has gone completely overboard. What is a sensible goal has spwned laws and behaviour by the police that is beyond stupid.

For really stupid look at cases in the US where the teenagers who actually took part were arrested for production and possession of child pornography.

[Garyvdh]

I think the world standard for the depiction of pornography is age 18.... it has nothing to do with the age of consensual sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography


legal definitions of child pornography generally refer to a wider range of material, including any pornography involving a minor, according to jurisdiction

a minor in South African law is a person under 18.

[daveza]

That's a possible explanation though it's rather illogical if correct.

You can have sex but you can't take a photo ?

You can even be married at 16 - but can't take photos of your honeymoon night ( I'm sure many do this.... )

Teenage shena****ns being classed equally with the other far more disturbing stuff makes me uneasy.

Footnote: The invisible censor strikes again - the word is shenan1gans

[PeterCH]

That's a possible explanation though it's rather illogical if correct.

You can have sex but you can't take a photo ?

Correct. In fact the girl and the boy in the video are guilty of PRODUCING
child pr0n.

[daveza]

What would be the logic behind this conundrum ?

[Fudzy]

Its easy, if any of the parties in a pornographic video you are watching are younger than 18. It's child porn. It's that simple...

Same reason why people under the age of 18 might think they can drink and or drive, it doesn't make it legal.

[killadoob]

I think the world standard for the depiction of pornography is age 18.... it has nothing to do with the age of consensual sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography



a minor in South African law is a person under 18.

Wow how stupid is that, you can screw 16 year old girls but you cannot have their naked pictures? Wow thats a LOL.

[Fudzy]

Wow how stupid is that, you can screw 16 year old girls but you cannot have their naked pictures? Wow thats a LOL.

AFAIK you have to be under 18 to have sex with some between the ages of 16-18. If you take a photo and keep it to yourself, who's going to know? If you distribute it though, its child pornography.

[daveza]

Its easy, if any of the parties in a pornographic video you are watching are younger than 18. It's child porn. It's that simple...

Same reason why people under the age of 18 might think they can drink and or drive, it doesn't make it legal.

It may be that simple but it makes no sense.

How can a photo of a legal act be illegal ?

[Syph0n]

How can a photo of a legal act be illegal ?

Lol, you've actually got a bloody good point there...

Legal symantics ftl

A 67 year old can screw a 16 year old *cough JZ*, but a guy can't have a picture of his 17 year old girlfriend naked? :/

[Fudzy]

It may be that simple but it makes no sense.

How can a photo of a legal act be illegal ?

It's not. Its the distribution of that photo which makes it illegal.

[Syph0n]

It's not. Its the distribution of that photo which makes it illegal.

No, even taking the photo at all is illegal.

[Garyvdh]

there is nothing wrong with a theoretical original boyfriend having the photo... what is illegal is the distribution and sale of the photo.

This refers to a story where a 16 year old girl had sex with multiple guys at a party and somebody recorded it on their cellphone. The video was then being distributed at the school and in that community and subsequently sold on DVD as well.

If it was just the original boyfriend who had the photo with the girl's permission I doubt the authorities would have got involved. But they did get involved when the video and photos started being distributed without her consent and to her family's embarrassment. She still lives at home and as a minor is technically still under her parent's authority.

[Syph0n]

there is nothing wrong with a theoretical original boyfriend having the photo... what is illegal is the distribution and sale of the photo.

This refers to a story where a 16 year old girl had sex with multiple guys at a party and somebody recorded it on their cellphone. The video was then being distributed at the school and in that community and subsequently sold on DVD as well.

If it was just the original boyfriend who had the photo with the girl's permission I doubt the authorities would have got involved. But they did get involved when the video and photos started being distributed without her consent and to her family's embarrassment. She still lives at home and as a minor is technically still under her parent's authority.

Point taken, but don't you think the double standards are ridiculous?

[Garyvdh]

Lol, you've actually got a bloody good point there...

Legal symantics ftl

A 67 year old can screw a 16 year old *cough JZ*, but a guy can't have a picture of his 17 year old girlfriend naked? :/

you should read up more... here is the original story...

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20090325174702779C104825


The police have warned that anyone in possession of pictures or video of a young Phoenix, Durban, girl having sex with four fellow pupils could be charged.

This after a Phoenix businessman was arrested this week for being in possession of child pornography.

Police Superintendent Jay Naicker said on Tuesday that Enbanathan Govender(cor), 31, had been arrested on Tuesday after officers received a tip that he was in possession of child pornography.

"The images were found on his cellphone. The pictures were of pupils from a local school engaged in sexual acts," he said.

The images are of a 16-year-old Phoenix girl who was filmed engaging in sexual acts with four fellow pupils on February 26. The girl had gone to a party where she and others had allegedly consumed alcohol and taken drugs, and engaged in sexual activities.

The video and pictures from the party had been widely circulated in the Phoenix area.

Naicker said Govender was charged under the Film and Publications Act and appeared in the Verulam Magistrate's Court on Wednesday.

The case was adjourned to April 3 and Govender was released on R500 bail.

Naicker warned that more arrests were imminent and that people should refrain from distributing the images.

[Garyvdh]

Point taken, but don't you think the double standards are ridiculous?

no, not at all. The law is there to protect the children. Do you have a problem with that?

... and what double standards are you talking about anyway?

There are no double standards.

[manesan]

no, not at all. The law is there to protect the children. Do you have a problem with that?

... and what double standards are you talking about anyway?

There are no double standards.

Together with your previous posts, well said. I find it difficult why some forumites find it difficult to understand.

[JHatman]

In the eyes of the law, pornographic pictures of girls under 18 is considered grounds for prosecution. Superintendent Jay Naicker might have worded it incorrectly though, it isn't child porn, just illegal.

As far as I'm aware, the legal age of consent is 16. They cannot charge you for that, even as low as 15 is pushing your luck depending on your age.

But messing with anything 14 and under is just asking for a world of trouble!

[subculture]

If you under 18 you are considered a minor, but it makes sense why they dont use the term: 'minor porn'.

[Garyvdh]

Maybe this will clarify it some more...

Girl A who is 16 has a boyfriend B.

They are legally allowed to have consensual sex.

They can even take pictures and keep those pictures for themselves.... BUT

1) Those pictures are technically illegal because she is still a minor.
2) Her boyfriend can get in big trouble (if it comes out) for taking the pics because it is technically illegal.
3) Her consent to the pictures does not really matter because in the eyes of the law she is still a minor and therefore under her parents authority.
4) having sex is a private act, but taking a picture makes a record of that act which other people can then view, making it no longer a private act.
5) It is unlikely the law would prosecute a single boyfriend for possession of the photos, especially where she was consenting.
6) But the moment the pics become public and are being distributed, then it becomes illegal and the law steps in to protect the minor from exploitation.

There is no double standard. There is one standard for consensual sex which is a private act. There is another standard for taking pictures which can potentially become public. There is no conflict.

[Garyvdh]

If you under 18 you are considered a minor, but it makes sense why they dont use the term: 'minor porn'.

actually it is still "child porn"... remember the case of that child porn star in the USA who lied about her age. She started in the industry when she was 15. Years later when she finally confessed about her age... all her videos were pulled from distribution and possession of them became illegal under "child porn" laws. Any depiction of a minor nude or engaging in a sexual act is "child porn"

See the Wikipedia article I quoted earlier. She may not be a "child" in terms of common definition of the word... but the legal term for the offence is still "child pornography"

[saaierwaaier]

In my view a 16 year old chick is not a minor. A 16 year old knows full and well what she's engaging in. Child porn should be if there is a candidate under 16 or even 15 engaging in sexual acts in the material.

[JHatman]

Yay - at least some people on this forum have learn to use their brain and think for themselves.

I don't think any of us are really disputing it, but within the context of the law, under 18 is child porn, but that hasn't stop many of us from staring at a cute 17yo in a bikini :D:D

[Garyvdh]

In my view a 16 year old chick is not a minor. A 16 year old knows full and well what she's engaging in. Child porn should be if there is a candidate under 16 or even 15 engaging in sexual acts in the material.

Sure, but your "opinion" means nothing in terms of the law... except that a person acting on their opinion will be arrested for breaking it... and branded a paedophile to boot. :D

[Xarog]

The thing about this that I find completely nonsensical is that there is often also a ban on any pictures that could just be INTERPRETED to be child pornography.

It's a serious case of nanny state gone too far.

[Ekhaatvensters]

Sure, but your "opinion" means nothing in terms of the law... except that a person acting on their opinion will be arrested for breaking it... and branded a paedophile to boot. :D

Sigh, this is exactly the problem. The law makes little sense in terms of logic.

Look at this idiotic example. This guy is charged with child porn and gets his name in the papers along with that charge. Yet if she was 2 years older (no major moral difference here and it could be 17 under the law) he could professionally film it and distribute it internationally. He has a few crappy pictures on his cellphone from kids at the school?

It should really work the same way it would if she was 18, because there isn't much difference. No reason to call it child porn with all the "stigma" that goes with it imo. Either lower the age to something more realistic or give it a different name at least.

[Garyvdh]

Sigh, this is exactly the problem. The law makes little sense in terms of logic.

Look at this idiotic example. This guy is charged with child porn and gets his name in the papers along with that charge. Yet if she was 2 years older (no major moral difference here and it could be 17 under the law) he could professionally film it and distribute it internationally. He has a few crappy pictures on his cellphone from kids at the school?

It should really work the same way it would if she was 18, because there isn't much difference. No reason to call it child porn with all the "stigma" that goes with it imo.

sigh... which guy? :rolleyes: There is no "guy" in this story. There is only a group of four guys with whom she had orgy sex at a party. Then there are the guyS who recorded it and are now distributing it. So which guy are you talking about?

and seriously... honestly... what difference does it make in Hell what we call it.... "Teen porn" ... "adolescent porn".... it's still the same crime.

[smokey]

Bollocks to everything. If those guys were stupid enough to have underage porn on their cellphones then they deserve everything they are getting. The stupidity of some people, seriously...

It really doesn't matter whether it's right or logical or sane or sick or whatever. What matters is that you know that it is ILLEGAL, no matter what your personal convictions are. End of story. Castrate them so the stupidity gene dies out sooner (for anyone who actually thinks I really mean this, as opposed to just venting at their complete lack of self-control and selfpreservation, please... read what you would like into it...).

[Ekhaatvensters]

sigh... which guy? :rolleyes: There is no "guy" in this story. There is only a group of four guys with whom she had orgy sex at a party. Then there are the guyS who recorded it and are now distributing it. So which guy are you talking about?

I mean the man who got arrested for having the pictures/videos. Aah I must read the rest of the article but I'm not talking that specifically about the article. Do you see why I think it's a silly law with the current implications and using the term child porn?

EDIT: In that case I would mean the hypothetical guy who has got some pictures (they found it on his cellphone, must be a huge distribution network then?) on his phone and is charged with possession of child pornography in a case like this.

[Ekhaatvensters]

Castrate them so the stupidity gene dies out sooner.

So you want to castrate them for a 16 year old but you could go see thousands of 18 year olds now legally on the internet and that's fine? Good law, make it the death sentence rather.

[Ekhaatvensters]

and seriously... honestly... what difference does it make in Hell what we call it.... "Teen porn" ... "adolescent porn".... it's still the same crime.

How does it not make a MASSIVE difference comparing a say 4-10 year old girl (what child porn implies) with a 16 year old who is doing it consensually?

"Teen porn" is something legal which isn't even on the fringe of society, so you could call it that but then it doesn't sound like a crime at all. Which is what I'm getting at.

[smokey]

So you want to castrate them for a 16 year old but you could go see thousands of 18 year olds now legally on the internet and that's fine? Good law, make it the death sentence rather.

There we go mate, fixed it for ya! :rolleyes:

[Garyvdh]

I mean the man who got arrested for having the pictures/videos. Aah I must read the rest of the article but I'm not talking that specifically about the article. Do you see why I think it's a silly law with the current implications and using the term child porn?

EDIT: In that case I would mean the hypothetical guy who has got some pictures (they found it on his cellphone, must be a huge distribution network then?) on his phone and is charged with possession of child pornography in a case like this.

I know what you mean theoretically. I just don't see the point in making a differentiation for what is all essentially the same crime. Do you mean we should treat a guy with porn of a 16 year old differently than the guy with porn of an 8 year old? Sorry... but that just messes up the whole scheme of things. Make one law for all kids and stick to it. 18 is the cut off point so that kids are not exploited.

The example of the 18 year old above is a case in point. Thousands of 18 year old girls are herded into pornography as soon as they are "legal". It's bad enough. It would be even worse if they were being exploited when they were still 16.

[JHatman]

The thing about this that I find completely nonsensical is that there is often also a ban on any pictures that could just be INTERPRETED to be child pornography.

It's a serious case of nanny state gone too far.

Some images found on cd covers (the wikipedia incident) and in pictures taken by artists that have stirred up a lot of controversy are quite clearly just eye candy for pedofiles.

In my view perversion is in the eye of the beholder. But children need to be protected by the law because often their own parents fail to protect them from being exploited, especially in the name of art.

Another example is nudist beaches. Its against the law to take photographs on nudist beaches for this very reason. Anybody under 18 should not be allowed into these places or to take part in any semi-nude or nude art full stop! Its a very controversial subject as recently seen in the media..

[smokey]

I know what you mean theoretically. I just don't see the point in making a differentiation for what is all essentially the same crime. Do you mean we should treat a guy with porn of a 16 year old differently than the guy with porn of an 8 year old? Sorry... but that just messes up the whole scheme of things. Make one law for all kids and stick to it. 18 is the cut off point so that kids are not exploited.

The example of the 18 year old above is a case in point. Thousands of 18 year old girls are herded into pornography as soon as they are "legal". It's bad enough. It would be even worse if they were being exploited when they were still 16.

That is just... brilliant.

[Ekhaatvensters]

I know what you mean theoretically. I just don't see the point in making a differentiation for what is all essentially the same crime. Do you mean we should treat a guy with porn of a 16 year old differently than the guy with porn of an 8 year old? Sorry... but that just messes up the whole scheme of things. Make one law for all kids and stick to it. 18 is the cut off point so that kids are not exploited.

The example of the 18 year old above is a case in point. Thousands of 18 year old girls are herded into pornography as soon as they are "legal". It's bad enough. It would be even worse if they were being exploited when they were still 16.

Ye this I understand too, the law shouldn't be changed, but with how strongly people feel about child porn and the way teens act these days there should be some clarity. And I do think the difference between real child porn, i.e 8 and 16 is huge.

That is all really. Continuously seeing reports about child porn only to find out it's the technical term when someone's 16 or 17 is just sensationalism in the newspapers imo.

[Garyvdh]

Ye this I understand too, the law shouldn't be changed, but with how strongly people feel about child porn and the way teens act these days there should be some clarity. And I do think the difference between real child porn, i.e 8 and 16 is huge.

That is all really. Continuously seeing reports about child porn only to find out it's the technical term when someone's 16 or 17 is just sensationalism in the newspapers imo.

Ja, I hear you. But I can sympathise. If the paedophiles see how harshly these guys are treated they will be much more hesitant to try their sick stuff. Give em Hell I say!

Too many kids lives are being ruined by adults as it is. How is this girl supposed to feel ten years from now over this whole issue. Yes she messed up and must bear part of the blame, but did she know/think about the fact that she might be recorded? What about her kids? In this day and age of recording technology, the rules need to be tightened, not relaxed.

[daveza]

So you can take on the greatest responsibilty by having a baby at 16, but in the eyes of the law you are still a minor and can't take ' adult ' photo's ?

If the parent's said it was ok to distribute the pics of consensual legal sex is this still child porn or illegal ?

What is the definition of porn here anyway ?

Let's say we have a full frontal of a naked 16 year old - just standing - is that porn ?

That same 16 year old walking naked on Sandy Bay - yes ok it's illegal to be naked in public but what's the difference between this and a photo or video of the same thing ?

Pics or videos of 4 year olds being sexually abused are abhorrent and vile - I can't see that 16 year olds engaged in consensual legal sex should ever be viewed in the same light.

[Garyvdh]

So you can take on the greatest responsibilty by having a baby at 16, but in the eyes of the law you are still a minor and can't take ' adult ' photo's ?

If the parent's said it was ok to distribute the pics of consensual legal sex is this still child porn or illegal ?

What is the definition of porn here anyway ?

Let's say we have a full frontal of a naked 16 year old - just standing - is that porn ?

That same 16 year old walking naked on Sandy Bay - yes ok it's illegal to be naked in public but what's the difference between this and a photo or video of the same thing ?

Pics or videos of 4 year olds being sexually abused are abhorrent and vile - I can't see that 16 year olds engaged in consensual legal sex should ever be viewed in the same light.

are you stating your opinion or asking about the law?

According to the law.... 1,2,3, all child porn.

[daveza]

Just my humble opinion.

[Garyvdh]

the problem is... say we allow it to be 16 this year. By next year everyone is desensitized to 16 year old nudity... and then we are back here and people are asking why not 14?

The law is the law... and it is designed to stay that way for a reason.

[saaierwaaier]

Wtf is this debate about? An 8 year old is a child, a 16 or even 15 year old is NOT! Why all these LONG stretched out quotes?

[Syph0n]

The law is the law... and it is designed to stay that way for a reason.

Nonsense - speak for yourself. The rest of us are quite capable of using our own brains, thank you very much.

[Zombrainy]

So anybody seen it:eek:? it must have been a good pretty tape if it's still creating a buzz around it:p

just the other day i was reading the people magazine:sick: and it had an article about Miley Cyrus trying on clothes in which they have a picture of her with major side-boob action. Last I checked she was 16 so these pictures should not have been legal yet they were distributed and sold for ca$h. So where are the Judges that prevent THAT from happening if there are so concerned about naive 16 y.o's? :confused: oh sorry she's a celebrity, in public:eek:

This case is a joke and a 16 y.o. having consensual fun with her "friends" is not child porn IMO unless it is distributed for monetary gain

how many of you had your first experience before it was "legal" to do so, if there was evidence to remind you of it, even better as memories do seem to fade in one's old age.

[Garyvdh]

Nonsense - speak for yourself. The rest of us are quite capable of using our own brains, thank you very much.

fine, but don't come crying to us when people start labelling you a paedophile...

[Xarog]

Some images found on cd covers (the wikipedia incident) and in pictures taken by artists that have stirred up a lot of controversy are quite clearly just eye candy for pedofiles.

In my view perversion is in the eye of the beholder. But children need to be protected by the law because often their own parents fail to protect them from being exploited, especially in the name of art.

Another example is nudist beaches. Its against the law to take photographs on nudist beaches for this very reason. Anybody under 18 should not be allowed into these places or to take part in any semi-nude or nude art full stop! Its a very controversial subject as recently seen in the media..
All of which has got nothing to do with my point that people get prosecuted for drawing explicit pictures of children from their imagination (without any real people ever being molested or violated in any way).

And if you're going to try to tell me that this is "reasonable", well, I know of a nice little room with padded walls that you can inhabit for cheap.

[Natas]

But where is the link to the video of that chick in Durban and the four boys?

Hehehe.. only kidding.. I'm not into child pron... but seriously where is the link... Hehehe.. no no, I really am kidding... but if someone has it, please PM me... ehehhe.. I was just kidding again... No serisously...hehehe

[Devill]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=nw20090325174702779C104825



Consensual sex for 16 year olds is legal or not ? How does this count as child porn ?

Child porn is little kiddies and old pigs not this.

It is illegal for someone aged under 18y/o to appear in a pornographic film/shoot/whatever. It is also illegal to be in possesion of pornographic material of anyone under the age of 18.

But it is legal to have sex with a 16y/o and older :rolleyes:

Weird huh?

[gdiza]

They received a tip off...

Someone that the guy PO phoned them ;) haha.

[PeterCH]

Another example is nudist beaches. Its against the law to take photographs on nudist beaches for this very reason. Anybody under 18 should not be allowed into these places or to take part in any semi-nude or nude art full stop! Its a very controversial subject as recently seen in the media..

Against the law? Where?

In Europe and US it's NOT against the law. It depends on the beach itself - if photography is permitted or not there. Secondly it also depends on the permission of the participants in the pictures, but for distance shots the rules probably differ and if pics are allowed, taking a pic of a crowd of elderly nudists is fine. Nudity is not pornography either.

It's not against the law per se, at least in the countries which have the nudist beaches. SA AFAIK has no real nudist beaches bar one or two small unofficial ones.

[news24]

The world is so FSCK up, I don't know why we have double standards. You watch a video of someone gets beheaded and dismembered, its OK, no prosecution, No contravention of any international laws, you watch a video of a 16 yr old getting nailed, they put you behind bars. If a film is made about a minor and an adult, everyone screams and ask for banning of the movie, then you see a movie like SAW and Hostel and everybody says "COOL".

Whats next? Prosecution of thoughts :eek:

[Nanfeishen]

The world is so FSCK up, I don't know why we have double standards. You watch a video of someone gets beheaded and dismembered, its OK, no prosecution, No contravention of any international laws, you watch a video of a 16 yr old getting nailed, they put you behind bars. If a film is made about a minor and an adult, everyone screams and ask for banning of the movie, then you see a movie like SAW and Hostel and everybody says "COOL".

Dont you know sex is taboo, it might get people feeling good about each other, it may actually be enjoyable, it may actually be something people can do without "only for procreation", we cant have that now can we.:rolleyes:
Violence on the other hand is good, its good for news, its good for movies, its great at prime time news broadcast, its something politicians can focus on, lobbyists can complain about, its big business, it keeps people feeling helpless, powerless, violent crime, terrorism, bombings, beheadings, stories of victims, it sells.

[JHatman]

All of which has got nothing to do with my point that people get prosecuted for drawing explicit pictures of children from their imagination (without any real people ever being molested or violated in any way).

And if you're going to try to tell me that this is "reasonable", well, I know of a nice little room with padded walls that you can inhabit for cheap.

Naw I'm good, not enough room for the two of us in their anyways :rolleyes:

[Gory51]

Read the whole article as well people before commenting.

Girl bunks school, goes to private party, gets drunk and then has sex with 4 guys........and someone films it all. This is then SOLD at her school and uploaded onto the web. She is only 16. Do some of you honestly believe she was fully intending this to go so far when she went to the party.

Also think of her life and future that is now under strain.

Yes she was stupid, but hell, the suffering she has to go through now could not possibly have been foreseen by her. Its an experience she has hopefully learned from in life, and thats the difference. Young people are inexperienced, and often use bad judgement because of this. Should their reputation and future have to suffer because of this learning period when they grow up?

Here we are arguing on how stupid the laws banning distribution of this material are, and yet we see clearly how this could ruin a young developing persons life. Is the price of her future worth it just for us to get our fix of porn?

[rambo919]

Read the whole article as well people before commenting.

Girl bunks school, goes to private party, gets drunk and then has sex with 4 guys........and someone films it all. This is then SOLD at her school and uploaded onto the web. She is only 16. Do some of you honestly believe she was fully intending this to go so far when she went to the party.

Also think of her life and future that is now under strain.

Yes she was stupid, but hell, the suffering she has to go through now could not possibly have been foreseen by her. Its an experience she has hopefully learned from in life, and thats the difference. Young people are inexperienced, and often use bad judgement because of this. Should their reputation and future have to suffer because of this learning period when they grow up?

Here we are arguing on how stupid the laws banning distribution of this material are, and yet we see clearly how this could ruin a young developing persons life. Is the price of her future worth it just for us to get our fix of porn?

Consequences happen whether we forsee them or not, if ur stupid u need to live with what happens because of your actions whether you want to or not. She was a little slut and someone decided to show the world, do you honestly believe this was the first and only time she did something like this? She probably had no good reputation to speak of anyway.

[TonyHawk]

Any of you forum readers & people that watch under age porn or participate in it (even photo's or cell is participation) should be removed from society...
It goes to show how your moral values have decayed... starts small & joke about it & then you're an active paedophile

No-one under the age of 18 should treated or watched in this way... even if they are the cause of it...
You paedophiles must get a life .. or better.. end it

[rambo919]

Any of you forum readers & people that watch under age porn or participate in it (even photo's or cell is participation) should be removed from society...
It goes to show how your moral values have decayed... starts small & joke about it & then you're an active paedophile

No-one under the age of 18 should treated or watched in this way... even if they are the cause of it...
You paedophiles must get a life .. or better.. end it

You my friend are missing a rather big point, when it comes to sex and age the laws in this country are inconsistant to the point that they cause mass confusion. Common sense alone tells us that if you are old enoungh to lawfully consent to sex you are old enough to consent to anything involving sex including photographic or video material. Secondly if you are old enough to lawfully consent to sex you can not be considered a sexual minor and thus no one involved can logically be considered a paedophile.
Im not arguing that much older men should be allowed to be sexually involved with 16 jr olds in any way as much as that Im aruguing that the laws governing sexual contact are faulty.

[charlie_82]

from what I understand she was 15 at the time the video was taken...
so she would've been underage at the time of engaging in the sexual acts too

[Natas]

The age as which someone is legally deemed capable of consenting to s3x is one issue that it dealt with in one manner. The is issue of pornographic images and what is and isn't allowed is a separate issue altogether. While the state may have decided one way on one thing, it is obvious that they have for their own reasons decided that pornographic images portraying someone of 16 years of age or less is not acceptable.

Maybe someone 16 years old is capable of consenting to sex, but imagine the distribution of images containing a 16 year old. The act of sex, and consenting to it is an issue that goes to the state of mind of the average 16 year old. The decision around that age limt probably took a lot into consideration including the reality of sex and people of that age. But IMO the motivation behind making sexual images of someone 16 years old illegal is obvious!??!

[charlie_82]

the problem is... say we allow it to be 16 this year. By next year everyone is desensitized to 16 year old nudity... and then we are back here and people are asking why not 14?

The law is the law... and it is designed to stay that way for a reason.

I agree Gary. You can't bend the rules.
The casino won't let you in when you're 17 years and 11 months old and that's a much milder situation compared to this.

Not to mention I've seen the video and it's quite disgusting.
Why anyone would keep something like this is beyond me.

[charlie_82]

you watch a video of a 16 yr old getting nailed

If you had seen the video you'd understand that it wasn't "traditional" sex...

I'll admit I feel very little sympathy for the girl. IMO she got drunk & high and did a lot of stupid things. When it got out for all to see, she cried rape (which was very quickly dismissed by the court)
But I do think that anyone who wants to watch a 15yr old human being engaged in the acts she was is just twisted.

[rambo919]

The act of sex, and consenting to it is an issue that goes to the state of mind of the average 16 year old. The decision around that age limt probably took a lot into consideration including the reality of sex and people of that age.

Hate to have to be the one to break this to u buddy but these days the average 15 jr old is engaged in sex. A lot of these 15 jr olds do NOT stick to what is considered traditional sex, they try out any and everything that comes along, taboo is a dirty word to them not bdsm. And besides, if you think that photos of sex and the sex depicted fall into two diff catagories you are deluding yourself.

[PeterCH]

Hate to have to be the one to break this to u buddy but these days the average 15 jr old is engaged in sex. A lot of these 15 jr olds do NOT stick to what is considered traditional sex, they try out any and everything that comes along, taboo is a dirty word to them not bdsm. And besides, if you think that photos of sex and the sex depicted fall into two diff catagories you are deluding yourself.

I hate to break this to you but sexual patterns haven't changed over the last few decades. People without parents or dysfunctional parents, with poor peer role models are into sex early - the type is irrelevant. Kids who have good role models and are brought up properly usually are not. Nothing new is happening.

[rambo919]

then explain to me how in my old high school virgins disappeared overnight a year or so ago?

[Gory51]

Consequences happen whether we forsee them or not, if ur stupid u need to live with what happens because of your actions whether you want to or not. She was a little slut and someone decided to show the world, do you honestly believe this was the first and only time she did something like this? She probably had no good reputation to speak of anyway.

I never said there were no consequences and I did say she was stupid in doing what she did. My point is that some people here are trying to argue it should be legal to watch this, with little regard for the teenagers future. Leave her be, and let her get on with her life. She is in trouble enough already, there is no need for people to keep distributing a highly ILLEGAL video of her.


I see you are very quick to unnecessarily call her a little slut, and I assume you say this because she had sex with these guys. However in your later post you say:

".... these days the average 15 jr old is engaged in sex. A lot of these 15 jr olds do NOT stick to what is considered traditional sex, they try out any and everything that comes along..."

By your argument the average 15 year old is a slut then.

Back to the original topic then. My question to you and anybody else here is this: Do you honestly believe this video should be NOT classified as child pornography?

[noxibox]

The law is often wrong. Sex and nudity are two very different things. Does the young woman in the video look like a child? If not then it is in fact arbitrary to call it child pornography since those involved do not look like children and it will be of no interest to anyone who seeks real child pornography.

This is also a reminder to everyone that you need to make sure your devices are secured.

[rambo919]

firstly, logically speaking having a video of something can only be illigal if the act portayed in said video is illigal.
secondly, as for ur average 15 jr old being a slut.....yeah they kinda are, thats what happens if u treat sex so lightly in society. teenagers will always go to extremes if they can especially if they think its the grown up thing to do, its what they do.
and thirdly, i really dont care how much she suffers, she screwed up so its her problem, this is the kind of thing that happens if you dont think before you do, if anyone is to blame its probably her parents anyway. she did something that should have been private in public, neither she nor you can now complain that its been made even more public.

[PeterCH]

then explain to me how in my old high school virgins disappeared overnight a year or so ago?

How do you know the virgins have disappeared? Are you perhaps the single male who deflowered them all or did you hack into all the local gynaecologists' databases and read the sexual histories of the children concerned?

[rambo919]

How do you know the virgins have disappeared? Are you perhaps the single male who deflowered them all or did you hack into all the local gynaecologists' databases and read the sexual histories of the children concerned?

I know cause i still live in the same town and a lot of people i know that was still in the school at the time verified it.

[Kuga]

Can someone PM me the link for this, thanks

[PeterCH]

I know cause i still live in the same town and a lot of people i know that was still in the school at the time verified it.

Ah hearsay, irrefutable evidence that is.

[Garyvdh]

Can someone PM me the link for this, thanks

the link for what?

to the child porn?

Do you want us to call the cops at the same time?

[rambo919]

yeah dude ur stupidity in even thinking of asking for the link was spectacular

[TonyHawk]

You my friend are missing a rather big point, when it comes to sex and age the laws in this country are inconsistant to the point that they cause mass confusion. Common sense alone tells us that if you are old enoungh to lawfully consent to sex you are old enough to consent to anything involving sex including photographic or video material. Secondly if you are old enough to lawfully consent to sex you can not be considered a sexual minor and thus no one involved can logically be considered a paedophile.
Im not arguing that much older men should be allowed to be sexually involved with 16 jr olds in any way as much as that Im aruguing that the laws governing sexual contact are faulty.

It's starts with perving on the younger ones... then the sick fock's think because they get no luck with them... they turn to defensless 1 year old's
How long are we going to put up with this crap ?
We need 5 years of zero tolerence and marshall law... clean out the corrupt society I say

[Thestealth]

Maybe he wants the link for scientific purposes...

[PeterCH]

Maybe he wants the link for scientific purposes...

Why anyone would want to watch a cellphone recorded video recorded in dim lighting with probably unattractive participants is beyond me. I would gather that he does in fact want it for 'scientific purposes'. :)

Jokes aside, genuine videos of youngsters engaged in sex or adults engaged in sex who are unaware of the video recording being done are wrong.

[Kuga]

Nah it was just an experiment to see peoples reactions. So experiment concluded.

[PeterCH]

Any of you forum readers & people that watch under age porn or participate in it (even photo's or cell is participation) should be removed from society...
It goes to show how your moral values have decayed... starts small & joke about it & then you're an active paedophile

No-one under the age of 18 should treated or watched in this way... even if they are the cause of it...
You paedophiles must get a life .. or better.. end it

While I agree with your point of view about this being immoral and quite disgusting I would like to point out to you that so far there has not been any scientific evidence advocating that watching porn of any sort makes one become a pedophile or some other maniac. In fact there may be evidence that watching porn relieves anxieties and instead of abusing genuine children the pedophile gets his gratification from a video clip. In other words pedophiles are not made by porn but have those tendencies to start off with - the watching underage porno is more of a symptom than a cause of their paraphilia.

Secondly, do realise that pedophilia concerns sexual interest in people under the age of 13, ie pre-pubertal children. People who are turned on by teenagers are not pedophiles unless the teenagers haven't been able to mature physically beyond the pre-pubertal stage. I do however share your concern that it is distasteful and that the poor girl is being victimised by having her likeness spread around the internet. A light approach to genuine videos of children is wrong and some sort of moral or disciplinary action should be taken to enforce some sort of decency in children, however, I fear such actions are virtually impossible. Parents should teach their children decent values by both preaching and teaching by example and if the children can find themselves in the company of other children who have been educated by caring parents in the same way - these children are less likely to do such nasty things. It starts with respect for the other person, that 'hot, sexy' girl in your class is not a sex object but a person like you and if you respect and love yourself (masturbation jokes aside) you will respect her too. When childrens' friends come from dysfunctional homes with no-one to teach them right from wrong they can stray and become pregnant, HIV positive, go into prostitution, crime, drug addiction and so on. Schools, parents, social services and those who produce media programming for children should instill respect into the children and reassure them that they can still be cool without loosing their virginity or doing worse things.

[Road runner]

Can someone PM me the link for this, thanks

LOL! +1

Us PE people! :D

[Garyvdh]

Nah it was just an experiment to see peoples reactions. So experiment concluded.

ah, yeah I see... :rolleyes:

I also used to tell my Mom when she found my pr0n stash that it was for "research purposes" :D

[Gory51]

I do however share your concern that it is distasteful and that the poor girl is being victimised by having her likeness spread around the internet. A light approach to genuine videos of children is wrong and some sort of moral or disciplinary action should be taken to enforce some sort of decency in children, however, I fear such actions are virtually impossible. Parents should teach their children decent values by both preaching and teaching by example and if the children can find themselves in the company of other children who have been educated by caring parents in the same way - these children are less likely to do such nasty things. It starts with respect for the other person, that 'hot, sexy' girl in your class is not a sex object but a person like you and if you respect and love yourself (masturbation jokes aside) you will respect her too. When childrens' friends come from dysfunctional homes with no-one to teach them right from wrong they can stray and become pregnant, HIV positive, go into prostitution, crime, drug addiction and so on. Schools, parents, social services and those who produce media programming for children should instill respect into the children and reassure them that they can still be cool without loosing their virginity or doing worse things.

Agreed, and signed. Well said

[PeterCH]

ah, yeah I see... :rolleyes:

I also used to tell my Mom when she found my pr0n stash that it was for "research purposes" :D

And when she used the belt on your behind, was that complementary research too? ;)

[Garyvdh]

And when she used the belt on your behind, was that complementary research too? ;)

Yes, we did a lot of "theoretical" research... and what if scenarios that were uncannily lifelike! :o

[rambo919]

ok now u guys are scaring me

[Aeron]

Relax rambo. This is Africa.

[TonyHawk]

If it was just the original boyfriend who had the photo with the girl's permission I doubt the authorities would have got involved. But they did get involved when the video and photos started being distributed without her consent and to her family's embarrassment. She still lives at home and as a minor is technically still under her parent's authority.

The "friend's" who recorded it should be put away for a year
This will be a warning to any friends or not... the law will be applied

[rambo919]

somehow i think liking it when ur mom spanks u applies more to europe than africa.....

[Kim_Webchick]

They having sex younger and younger. This is just crazy.

[JHatman]

They having sex younger and younger. This is just crazy.


Bad parenting imo

[Pitbull]

I would like to know the difference between the 2 laws in play here.

1. At 16 a person is able to concent to sex (Statutory rape stops at age 16)
2. Adult according to law in SA is once you reach 21.

How does that work in this specific case though ?

[TonyHawk]

Consequences happen whether we forsee them or not, if ur stupid u need to live with what happens because of your actions whether you want to or not. She was a little slut and someone decided to show the world, do you honestly believe this was the first and only time she did something like this? She probably had no good reputation to speak of anyway.

And when they catch you with the under-age porn on your phone... I hope they lock you up for a LONG time..

... hopefully before that ... they will parade you all over the press too

There will always be female sluts & male pigs (20% f and 80% m respectfully) IMO
But my friend ... under-age is under-age... you pray on them... you pay !!

[Garyvdh]

I would like to know the difference between the 2 laws in play here.

1. At 16 a person is able to concent to sex (Statutory rape stops at age 16)
2. Adult according to law in SA is once you reach 21.

How does that work in this specific case though ?

Those are not the two laws being talked about here....

1. Age of consent for sex is 16
2. Permissible Age to be in a Pornographic medium is 18.

But even that is not the issue. It is one thing to consent to sex in private with your boyfriend, it is quite another to having your naked body splashed around in public. giving consent to the one, does not imply giving consent to the other.

this girl might have made a dumb decision and consented to group sex. that does not automatically mean she was also consenting to the recording of it. And even if she did consent, the law does not allow her to do that.

[Pitbull]

Those are not the two laws being talked about here....

1. Age of consent for sex is 16
2. Permissible Age to be in a Pornographic medium is 18.

But even that is not the issue. It is one thing to consent to sex in private with your boyfriend, it is quite another to having your naked body splashed around in public. giving consent to the one, does not imply giving consent to the other.

this girl might have made a dumb decision and consented to group sex. that does not automatically mean she was also consenting to the recording of it. And even if she did consent, the law does not allow her to do that.

Exactly my point. She sent it to her boyfriend. So how can they charge her with Child pornography :confused: He's allowed to see her in full glory as long as it's not on a photo :D These laws need to be reviewed tbh.

[Garyvdh]

Exactly my point. She sent it to her boyfriend. So how can they charge her with Child pornography :confused: He's allowed to see her in full glory as long as it's not on a photo :D These laws need to be reviewed tbh.

Where did they say they were charging her? The article said any "third party" in possession of the footage would be charged. The court dismissed her claim of rape, but I don't think she has been charged with anything. And there was no "boyfriend" involved... it was a group of guys at a party.

[Pitbull]

Where did they say they were charging her? The article said any "third party" in possession of the footage would be charged. The court dismissed her claim of rape, but I don't think she has been charged with anything.

Then I think I read it wrong /off to go read it again.

[Pitbull]

Sorry, you're right.

I retract my posts then :p

[Garyvdh]

eventually sex will be a crime

doubt it. In fact society is moving in the opposite direction. Sex used to be a crime, for prostitutes, adulterers, homosexuals, deviants, etc. All of those laws have been scrapped in the last 100 years.

[Garyvdh]

well if they're moving in the opposite direction then WTF is all this stuff going on for?

um, protection of children. It's actually a good thing. think about it. Try hard.

[Garyvdh]

I think the protection of kids is going a bit far. Then at this rate it means you can get into trouble if you sleep with your girlfriend before the age of 18.

Did you even read the article? come on people.

It's not about her having sex with one guy. It's about a bunch of older men having a video of her (when she was 15 years old) having sex with four guys on their cellphones. Please... read before you post.

[charlie_82]

Can someone PM me the link for this, thanks

WTF dude!??!
Go look for porn elsewhere please!

[charlie_82]

Why anyone would want to watch a cellphone recorded video recorded in dim lighting with probably unattractive participants is beyond me. I would gather that he does in fact want it for 'scientific purposes'. :)

Jokes aside, genuine videos of youngsters engaged in sex or adults engaged in sex who are unaware of the video recording being done are wrong.

For the record, she's not unattractive. As for the boys, well they were smart enough not to get their faces on camera :rolleyes:

[Garyvdh]

It started out as that, then became a debate about what if some dude had nekkid pics of his gf on his cell, I was referring to that.

then why not quote the post you were referring to?

.. and where has the law every charged a boyfriend for having pics of his girlfriend?

[charlie_82]

What is this whole debate about anyways?
The girl was underage when the "sex" occured. She was underage when it was recorded. Making it child porn...
Whether she sent it to her boyfriend or not, the video is illegal.
That's why we have laws prohibiting sex under a certain age, to protect these kids from themselves. I mean if given a choice, a 10 yr old would eat ice-cream for every meal of the day... Underage children need to be protected, however conflicting the law may seem

[Garyvdh]

I shudder for the future generations :(

[charlie_82]

I shudder for the future generations :(

Me too mate... it's very scary

[Pitbull]

Did you even read the article? come on people.

It's not about her having sex with one guy. It's about a bunch of older men having a video of her (when she was 15 years old) having sex with four guys on their cellphones. Please... read before you post.

Hold on hold on hold on.

This thread is a bit dated, there is a similiar thread to this one about a girl that sent a picture to her boyfriend and was arrested for Child Porn. I'm not the only one that got a bit confused as it's clear in this thread.

Relax a bit :rolleyes:

[Garyvdh]

Dude, mistaking threads is not my problem. I'm just dealing with the topic here.

[charlie_82]

Your arrogance astounds. There was indeed another thread, so yeah I confused it with the other, big whoop-de-doo.

Sweet jesus, you South Africans are so paranoid!

If you lived in South Africa you'd understand why we are the way we are

[Pitbull]

Dude, mistaking threads is not my problem. I'm just dealing with the topic here.


Your arrogance astounds. There was indeed another thread, so yeah I confused it with the other, big whoop-de-doo.

Sweet jesus, you South Africans are so paranoid!

This is the one I was thinking about as I read through the posts.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=164395

Sorry to have made a little mistake.

[Garyvdh]

Your arrogance astounds. There was indeed another thread, so yeah I confused it with the other, big whoop-de-doo.

Sweet jesus, you South Africans are so paranoid!

so let me get this straight...?

you made a mistake for which you want me to apologise? :rolleyes:

Which amazingly intellectual country did you say you came from? :D

[TheHiveMind]

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2490457,00.html

According to that article, they suggest she may have been drugged and raped?
It only talks about this specific case at the very bottom.

[charlie_82]

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2490457,00.html

According to that article, they suggest she may have been drugged and raped?
It only talks about this specific case at the very bottom.

She did claim to be drugged & raped but she was having too much fun on that video to convince anyone - the charges we kicked out of court.
Well she said she was raped but that she appeared to be enjoying herself because they had smoked pot...

[TheHiveMind]

She did claim to be drugged & raped but she was having too much fun on that video to convince anyone - the charges we kicked out of court.
Well she said she was raped but that she appeared to be enjoying herself because they had smoked pot...

Wow, some of you ppl make it sound like you have seen it. Thats not good.

[Garyvdh]

Wow, some of you ppl make it sound like you have seen it. Thats not good.

Come on man... it was all over the news papers! For goodness sake!

[charlie_82]

Wow, some of you ppl make it sound like you have seen it. Thats not good.

I have seen it, but do not have a copy so please don't ask for it.
I wouldn't want to keep something so distasteful... Can't understand why anyone would

[TheHiveMind]

Come on man... it was all over the news papers! For goodness sake!

Oh, my bad. I don't read newspapers, and I don't have a tv. I only read online news so im rather sheltered.

[Garyvdh]

Oh, my bad. I don't read newspapers, and I don't have a tv. I only read online news so im rather sheltered.

actually, I don't either... I meant to say it was on IOL, News24 and the Times websites... but you know what I mean.

[charlie_82]

Nah, don't want your apology, not now, not ever.

Why are you so hostile?
I'm not trying to pick an argument here, I am genuinely keen to understand

[JHatman]

Must be a Texas thing, they got more guns than the Salvation Army.



Oh wait...

[Garyvdh]

Nah, don't want your apology, not now, not ever.

Great! :D glad you finally saw the logic! ;)

[charlie_82]

Me, hostile? WTF
I ain't trying to pick an argument here either. Gary is getting all huffy and puffy cos I made a mistake and then somehow, expected him to apologize, which I didn't.

See? Hostile... It was innocent question.
Chill out dude please, or find somewhere else to vent your frustrations

[Garyvdh]

Me, hostile? WTF
I ain't trying to pick an argument here either. Gary is getting all huffy and puffy cos I made a mistake and then somehow, expected him to apologize, which I didn't.

LOL.. huffy and puffy. I'm not the one who screwed up by posting in the wrong thread... and then got all defensive about it! ;)

[JHatman]

/sit
/popcorn

[charlie_82]

/sit
/popcorn

:D
joins you

[rambo919]

South Africans are really amazing:

- Easily offended
- Easily made to feel threatened
- Put words in people's mouths
- Always suspicious

personally ive given up on trying to use reason with this emotional crowd

[Garyvdh]

South Africans are really amazing:

- Easily offended
- Easily made to feel threatened
- Put words in people's mouths
- Always suspicious

aw shame! Did we upset you cos you made a little wittle mistakey wakey? :p

Dude, it's called "the internet" .. .sometimes also known as the "real world"... if you can't handle it, then go back to your Lego. :D

[Garyvdh]

now I am dealing with idiots too

do you get that feeling a lot? People not understanding you. Always ridiculing you? Making fun of you? :D Ever wondered why?

[Aeron]

+1 garyvdh

I just have to make a roll in on this hissy piss from leetstone. It's just so hysterical. Leetstone, you may get the feeling you're "holding your own" against garyvdh, but allow me to correct you. You're not. But please, do carry on. Your antics are a source of endless mirth for these "paranoid" South Africans. Oh and how about you try not to insult South Africans? Because it's a two way street; we know all about the kinds of people you find in America, especially your home state of hillbilly Texas, home to the inbreeders. Mmmkay, pumpkin?

[Lord Anubis]

As a father of daughters..the poor girl is someones baby..what type of sicko would find clips like that appealing..sies!

[ZA.Schmidt]

As a father of daughters..the poor girl is someones baby..what type of sicko would find clips like that appealing..sies!

Raise your 'babies' properly and you won't find yourself in a situation like this! Mense! I'm shocked. Whatever happened to good old personal responsibility in our society... :(

[charlie_82]

As a father of daughters..the poor girl is someones baby..what type of sicko would find clips like that appealing..sies!

+1
I have nieces the same age as this girl. Why anyone in their right mind would want to be able to watch this repeatedly is beyond me

[charlie_82]

Raise your 'babies' properly and you won't find yourself in a situation like this! Mense! I'm shocked. Whatever happened to good old personal responsibility in our society... :(

Too true that. We blame the TV, internet, MXIT blah blah...
I personally don't believe in bad kids, but bad parents. Sheesh as old as I am, my mother would still probably whip my ass if I did something like this

[Road runner]

Oops... Wrong story.

[rambo919]

LeetStone, dude, chill
hes poking u like u two are on a playground and ur falling for it. the way to deal with childish people is not to get childish urself.
like the wiseman says: never argue with idiots, theyll bring u down to their level and beat u with experiance

[thatdamnJoe]

Thanx, you've just answered a burning question. Now I know why the rest of the developed world dislikes Americans. Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike Americans. Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the Americans way. Always gotta get the last word in, always of the belief that the internet is a place to bully other guys 'cos you wouldn't dare do it IRL and you're too chicken sh*t to do it, nah, rather hide behind an anonymous nickname and IP address

Americans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

fixed

[Garyvdh]

Thanx, you've just answered a burning question. Now I know why the rest of the developed world dislikes South Africans. Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike south africans. Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the south african way. Always gotta get the last word in, always of the belief that the internet is a place to bully other guys 'cos you wouldn't dare do it IRL and you're too chicken sh*t to do it, nah, rather hide behind an anonymous nickname and IP address

South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

so um... what are you still doing here? :D

[Pitbull]

Thanx, you've just answered a burning question. Now I know why the rest of the developed world dislikes South Africans. Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike south africans. Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the south african way. Always gotta get the last word in, always of the belief that the internet is a place to bully other guys 'cos you wouldn't dare do it IRL and you're too chicken sh*t to do it, nah, rather hide behind an anonymous nickname and IP address

South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

Luister en luister nou mooi.

Jy maak 'n moerse fout deur te dink alle Suid Afrikaners is so. En jy veralgemeen heeltemal te feel. Ek sal daarvan hou om jou te "bully" IRL. Jy maak 'n moerse fout my vriend. 'n Moerse fout.

[rambo919]

can everybody just please calm down, you people are neither drunk nor 10 jrs old, act ur age please. dont start insulting and baiting people to get them to lash out at you, improve ur argument

[J0n0]

It's funny how every second topic that spurs a debate spirals into mud slinging and veers completely off topic...


South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

Please don't generalise, no way have you met every single South African, so you have no right to make that statement. I don't know where you're from. But I have met some real bastards from the States, yet, on a flight back to my home town, I sat next to a lovely elderly couple that's been flying 21 odd hours, and hat to sit at Johburg international for hours because a mistake was made. Yet, they were very pleasant towards me. Now...two nice people compared to the twenty odd unpleasant one's would tell me 2 out of 20 americans are nice. Yet, I don't think that way, ever. I prefer to get to know a person before making some decision as to what they are like as an individual and not a nation as a whole.

As for child porn...Just because 16 is a "legal" age in this country. Doesnt mean its right to record some child having sex. Morals come into play here, and you must be some sick person to want to do things like that. I'm 25, lowest age ill ever go is 20. But guess thats just me...

[Morgoth]

Thanx, you've just answered a burning question. Now I know why the rest of the developed world dislikes South Africans. Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike south africans. Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the south african way. Always gotta get the last word in, always of the belief that the internet is a place to bully other guys 'cos you wouldn't dare do it IRL and you're too chicken sh*t to do it, nah, rather hide behind an anonymous nickname and IP address

South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

south africa has one big fat

[ ] <------- carebox
[ ]
[ ]
[ ]

for you.

[Morgoth]

South Africans are really amazing:

- Easily offended
- Easily made to feel threatened
- Put words in people's mouths
- Always suspicious

you see South Africans and Americans are quite alike :P

[JHatman]

Thanx, you've just answered a burning question. Now I know why the rest of the developed world dislikes South Africans. Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike south africans. Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the south african way. Always gotta get the last word in, always of the belief that the internet is a place to bully other guys 'cos you wouldn't dare do it IRL and you're too chicken sh*t to do it, nah, rather hide behind an anonymous nickname and IP address

South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.

Dude, quit being such a carebear lol. This is the internet, deal with it.

Besides, venting mass generalisations and angst against an entire population simply because you have a small online disagreement doesn't seem very mature now does it? So you really think we're that bad huh? Do yourself a favour and take that exact same attitude to the off-topic on WoW-Europe ok? If after 10 mins there you feel yourself reaching for a razor blade, having come to the sudden realisation that Europeans are 80% more hostile to trolling than South African's are, then come back to mybroadband and we'll lend you a tissue! :rolleyes:

[Sabbz]

People who are turned on by teenagers are not pedophiles.. Oh thank god..






>.> Did I just say that out loud?

[Sabbz]

Luister en luister nou mooi.

Jy maak 'n moerse fout deur te dink alle Suid Afrikaners is so. En jy veralgemeen heeltemal te feel. Ek sal daarvan hou om jou te "bully" IRL. Jy maak 'n moerse fout my vriend. 'n Moerse fout.

@ LeetStone: Pitbull basically said he's going to punch you in the mouth for being a twit and assuming that all South African's are the same. :)

Pitbull, tuning someone in Afrikaans doesn't get you very far if they don't speak Afrikaans, especially if he's American - considering the fact that they're still reeling from the shock that life exists beyond the borders of their country.

[mezu]

@ LeetStone: Pitbull basically said he's going to punch you in the mouth for being a twit and assuming that all South African's are the same. :)

Pitbull, tuning someone in Afrikaans doesn't get you very far if they don't speak Afrikaans, especially if he's American - considering the fact that they're still reeling from the shock that life exists beyond the borders of their country.

LMAO :D

[Turtle]

For there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. If you can't really demonstrate that there was a victim, it shouldn't be illegal. For mere "possession", there cannot really be a victim - the crime would be the act of producing it - and certainly there then cannot be a "victim" if a 16-year old who is of consenting age also did it voluntarily. Simple. I think "child porn" should be when pre-pubescent children are involved.

[TonyHawk]

For there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. If you can't really demonstrate that there was a victim, it shouldn't be illegal. For mere "possession", there cannot really be a victim - the crime would be the act of producing it - and certainly there then cannot be a "victim" if a 16-year old who is of consenting age also did it voluntarily. Simple. I think "child porn" should be when pre-pubescent children are involved.

That is the most stupid thing I've ever heard...!!!
So now people must look for pubescent children... whether they're ahead of there regular age group or not :confused:

We're watching you sicko :mad:

[Turtle]

We're watching you sicko :mad:

Whatever dude - you just let get yourself swept up in this modern paranoid witch-hunt. Ignoring the bad grammar, your sentence doesn't even make sense, why should people "look for prepubescent children", that doesn't even mean anything.

Witch-hunt, witch-hunt, witch-hunt. It bears repeating, because that's pretty much exactly what most of this moral panic is.

[PeterCH]

For there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. If you can't really demonstrate that there was a victim, it shouldn't be illegal. For mere "possession", there cannot really be a victim - the crime would be the act of producing it - and certainly there then cannot be a "victim" if a 16-year old who is of consenting age also did it voluntarily. Simple. I think "child porn" should be when pre-pubescent children are involved.

I disagree. The law is correct that the child (even 16) can't agree to lewd self exposure and sex for the camera. Children should be protected - only over the age of 18 (and many are not mentally fit even then) should they be allowed to act in pr0no as is the case. 16 year olds are still mentally children even though physically the plumbing is there - as is the sexual drive. They are incapable of proper fusion of emotion with logic in decision making and projecting those into the future to foresee the consequences of their actions.

The crime is not victimless - there girl is the victim - if not the boy who forces her to have sex for the camera.

However, as you say, pr0n involving 13-17 year olds should not be called child pr0n, perhaps it should be called something else. You hear in the news about people busted for child pr0n and it's usually not pictures of sexual abuse of 8 year olds they're busted for but this type of stuff and psychologically there is a major difference since lusting after someone with developed secondary sexual characteristics is not UNNATURAL - while lusting after 8 year olds IS. There is a major difference. In fact it may be impossible to tell the difference between a 16 yo and a 20 yo and then the issue becomes of taste - while the issue of 13-17 yo is more of an issue of morality. Still 13-17yo should NOT be exploited sexually under any circumstances - they do suffer and they are definately NOT mature enough to face the abuse of pr0n.

[RetroBok]

For a few months now I've lurked these forums. Happy enough to sit a work and be a lazy whatsit, whilst reading some of the funniest, most thought provoking topics I've seen for a long, long time and the post below really peed me off today, I've sat here thinking whether I should respond or not... Obviously I've decided to respond .....At first I didn't want to dignify with a reply but anyway......

The quote below is one of the funniest, most ignorant pieces of writing I have ever had the pleasure of reading...

I've chucked it into point form......and edited it a smidge, just so I can get my points across




...rest of the developed world dislikes South Africans.
Now I have a clearer idea why I myself dislike south africans.
Always gotta attack, always gotta insult other people, always at war with something or somebody, its the south african way.
South africans, you disgust me, you make me sick to my gut.



1. If you ever ventured outside of your own country to expand your horizons you would be shocked at the general feeling about Americans or at least American politics/policies (which will hopefully change for the better soon), you have become the pariah of the world, not only in developed countries but in developing AND third world countries, in fact probably taking SA's place on the pariah list, along with other terrorist states (no not calling USA a terrorist state btw).

South Africa and South Africans have worked fricking hard to rid themselves of that status and are setting a good example to the rest of the world. Our constitution is one of the most forward thinking in the world. While South Africa and her people are far from perfect, I challenge you dear sir, to venture to another country, maybe even South Africa itself mingle with Saffas you will fast learn that we are not as bad a you think, and in general you will see other countries residents have a high opinion of us. I shudder to think why you feel the need to distinguish between the developed world and the rest of the world... is this your bigotted view of the world, that only developed countries have the right to make judgements like yours? What is it you're trying to say of un-developed countries?

2. Now you have a clearer idea of why you dislike South Africans? So you didn't like South Africans to start off with (I wonder why? Was it indoctrinated in you from a young age, just like we were indoctrinated with the ideas of apartheid? Is this not the same type of ignorance?) The difference between you and us dear boy is that we have grown as a nation we have come to love one another as equals while not quite forgetting the past and on the we're on the road to forgiveness which makes SA one of the greatest nations in the world.

You sir are guilty of the very thing we as a country were ostracised for. Stereotyping/ racism. So to digress from my almost intelligent post......HERES A BIG EFF YOU from me to you.

3. ALways attack always insult people always at war with something or somebody....actually a bit rich coming from someone who hails from another country who comes to a South African based forum and starts degrading another nationality and then has the bare faced cheek to accuse South Africans of the same thing.......Last I checked btw your motherland has invaded a country or two (sic) and is currently fighting wars on two fronts. Yes SA has had it's fair share of strife, however if you actually did a bit of research, even though we were pariahs, we helped you and your ilk in the time of need. We fought (cold war based) battles in Angola and elsewhere with the backing of your government, such was their paranoia of communism. Don't know what I'm talking about....type border war South Africa into Google, and then read and don't stop until you have the knowledge you then need to come back here and apologise. In case you missed the first one A BIG EFF YOU from me to you.

4. We make you sick to your gut? Not as sick as it makes us after 40 years of being ostracised by the "Developed" world for racism than those very same type of people then try and throw it back in our faces and partake in the same activities. I'd like to see your country right it's wrongs in approx 16 years....While SA is not quite there we almost are and then Boitjie you better watch out!

LeetStone I invite you to go to South Africa to experience her beauty her people and then I challenge you to come back here and have the same opinion as you do now.

[TonyHawk]

Witch-hunt, witch-hunt, witch-hunt. It bears repeating, because that's pretty much exactly what most of this moral panic is.

Must mean you don't have children.. cause you're probably still playing with them :eek:

[marine1]

LeetStone I invite you to go to South Africa to experience her beauty her people and then I challenge you to come back here and have the same opinion as you do now.

[/rant]Her beauty? Just dont get raped, murdered, attacked, robbed while experiencing it. ;)

[thatdamnJoe]

For there to be a crime, there has to be a victim. If you can't really demonstrate that there was a victim, it shouldn't be illegal. For mere "possession", there cannot really be a victim - the crime would be the act of producing it - and certainly there then cannot be a "victim" if a 16-year old who is of consenting age also did it voluntarily. Simple. I think "child porn" should be when pre-pubescent children are involved.

Actually, for there to be a crime, you only need to fulfill the definition of that crime either in common law or statutes. If the details surrounding this case fulfill the requirements of the crime of possesion or manufacture of child pornography, that'll be enough to get you in real trouble.

Whether the definition of child pornography could or should be extended to drawings of children is another matter entirely. The guy in Aus who get jail time because "simpsons porn" was regarded as child porn may tend to agree with this.

[Pitbull]

Her beauty? Just dont get raped, murdered, attacked, robbed while experiencing it. ;)

Come on Marine1

You know I hate crime in this country as much as you do. It is however blown way out of proportion by the news and sucked out for every drop of attention it gets in the news.

Apart from a house break and a few times my car was broken into I have not experienced the crime we read in the papers daily. Sure I have been stabbed but that was due to my own stupidity in a drunken brawl at a night club.

Just like me, there is millions and millions of SA people who has never been part of a violent crime. Sure there is a problem. But to tell people SA is a crime hell and you WILL be raped or murdered...... What is the odds of that ?

Certain areas are more prone to these crimes than others. But it's not a National SA problem.

[RetroBok]

Her beauty? Just dont get raped, murdered, attacked, robbed while experiencing it. ;)

This is pretty much the same in most countries these days, just not as highlighted in the world press. The stigma that is attached to South Africa lives on through the world press, who through different media try to hide their crime situation by highlighting others. And thereby resulting in the ignorance of people like LeetStone.

I'm not ignorant enough to think it isn't a problem in South Africa, however I'm just as likely to be raped, murdered, attacked and robbed on my way to the pub here in London as I am anywhere in South Africa.
Anyway I've dragged this thread off topic as much as I should.

Have a good day!
:D

[thatdamnJoe]

This is pretty much the same in most countries these days, just not as highlighted in the world press. The stigma that is attached to South Africa lives on through the world press, who through different media try to hide their crime situation by highlighting others. And thereby resulting in the ignorance of people like LeetStone.

I'm not ignorant enough to think it isn't a problem in South Africa, however I'm just as likely to be raped, murdered, attacked and robbed on my way to the pub here in London as I am anywhere in South Africa.
Anyway I've dragged this thread off topic as much as I should.

Have a good day!
:D


Seen our crime stats lately? I think you are mistaken. Sure there are dangerous areas all over the world. London itself has some very dangerous areas. The difference being that in SA those areas are sometimes entire cities

[Pitbull]

Seen our crime stats lately? I think you are mistaken. Sure there are dangerous areas all over the world. London itself has some very dangerous areas. The difference being that in SA those areas are sometimes entire cities

Not 100% correct and you know that ;)

[RetroBok]

Seen our crime stats lately? I think you are mistaken. Sure there are dangerous areas all over the world. London itself has some very dangerous areas. The difference being that in SA those areas are sometimes entire cities

Yes this I know :D I think I didn't get my point across as well as I thought.

What I meant was that anywhere you go you are just as likely to be a victim of crime, so that shouldn't stop you from visiting a country. I was recently back in SA (to tie the knot. Go Me!) and was amazed (in a good way) at the things I saw. Having been subjected to the biased reporting of the press I was very nervous about returning, however I came back to the U.K beaming with pride, and actually thinking about moving back to SA. Crime (nor politics for that matter) is not the reason I left but it has been one of the major reasons for not quite wanting to come back. That and I have family ties here in the U.K. now.

[thatdamnJoe]

Not 100% correct and you know that ;)

what are they at now? Around 50 women get raped in SA every day I think. Those are the ones who report it.

Look, I'm not saying you cant step out the front door, but there's no reason to deny that we live in a very dangerous country where your chance of being subjected to violent crime is way too high.

[Pitbull]

what are they at now? Around 50 women get raped in SA every day I think. Those are the ones who report it.

Look, I'm not saying you cant step out the front door, but there's no reason to deny that we live in a very dangerous country where your chance of being subjected to violent crime is way too high.

I agree that the stats are shocking. Even 1 rape is Shocking.

My point is that there is no way you can say every woman in SA will be raped in their life time. There is no way you can say even 50% of SA will be raped in their life time. There is no way you can say 50% of SA will ever experience a horific crime once in their lives.

There is a risk to it every where in the world. I can live here in SA for 30 years and never be a victim of crime, go to the UK on holiday and get stabbed to death walking from the Pub to my hotel.

That is life mate ;)

That's all I'm saying. Our Crime is way out of control yes. But it still doesn't mean that 100% of SA is a crime hot spot where you will be raped, killed or robbed. The odds of someone coming here and being robbed, killed or raped is prob less than 1%

[theratman]

Come on Marine1

You know I hate crime in this country as much as you do. It is however blown way out of proportion by the news and sucked out for every drop of attention it gets in the news.

Apart from a house break and a few times my car was broken into I have not experienced the crime we read in the papers daily. Sure I have been stabbed but that was due to my own stupidity in a drunken brawl at a night club.

Just like me, there is millions and millions of SA people who has never been part of a violent crime. Sure there is a problem. But to tell people SA is a crime hell and you WILL be raped or murdered...... What is the odds of that ?

Certain areas are more prone to these crimes than others. But it's not a National SA problem.

Spot on.

[thatdamnJoe]

I agree that the stats are shocking. Even 1 rape is Shocking.

My point is that there is no way you can say every woman in SA will be raped in their life time. There is no way you can say even 50% of SA will be raped in their life time. There is no way you can say 50% of SA will ever experience a horific crime once in their lives.

There is a risk to it every where in the world. I can live here in SA for 30 years and never be a victim of crime, go to the UK on holiday and get stabbed to death walking from the Pub to my hotel.

That is life mate ;)

That's all I'm saying. Our Crime is way out of control yes. But it still doesn't mean that 100% of SA is a crime hot spot where you will be raped, killed or robbed. The odds of someone coming here and being robbed, killed or raped is prob less than 1%

Agreed, I was actually replying/referring to Retrobok's "just as likely somewhere else as here" statement, because that patently is not true

[Garyvdh]

massive thread derail in progress! :D

[thatdamnJoe]

ok ok sorry

/derail ended

[RetroBok]

Yup sorry wasn't the intention anyway... carry on.....

[RetroBok]

My rant from last night needs some editing as I have only just discovered that LeetStone is actually an ex-Saffa living in USA so my whole post is moot. (Damn and I got on my high horse and everything :D) Oh well........


Pretty scary though how some one that grew up in South Africa hates it so much......

Good Luck in the U S of A Leetstone they deserve you......

[Garyvdh]

s ok... I think LeetStoned has given up on us Souf Effrikans! :p