View Full Version : Police brutality caught on camera
matt loves telkom
15-10-2009, 12:32 PM
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20091015040336615C278500
On the front page of The Star aswell.....
um did the cops not notice the cameraman or what :confused:
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 12:34 PM
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20091015040336615C278500
On the front page of The Star aswell.....
um did the cops not notice the cameraman or what :confused:
Or they didn't care? What with 80% of convicted policemen for crimes a lot worse than assault still being on the force and working as if nothing ever happened...
matt loves telkom
15-10-2009, 12:38 PM
yeah i hear you i just think its wierd how in the one picture you see the gun in hand like 5 inches away and he lets the guys snap away :p sneaky
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 12:45 PM
yeah i hear you i just think its wierd how in the one picture you see the gun in hand like 5 inches away and he lets the guys snap away :p sneaky
Amazing what a good zoom lens can do :p
DreamKing
15-10-2009, 12:50 PM
police = criminal
no different!
after integrated to be a "super force", the only victims of police force will not be criminals. Will be innocent civilians.
also heard that the police can get in to any premises without warrant and can have power to impound anything inside the premises. I guess police will become "licensed criminal".
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 12:58 PM
Well I am thinking of joining the police, not because I want to help my fellow man but because in 1 or 2 years being a polieman will be the only way to protect yourself :mad:!
davemc
15-10-2009, 01:15 PM
It could be that the guilty policeman is looking forward to his 6 months of paid holiday while an investigation ensues, that will result in his eventual dismissal from the force with a nice parachute.
Or, a very clever hoax. What do newspapers pay for front-page pictures nowadays?
DreamKing
15-10-2009, 01:18 PM
Well I am thinking of joining the police, not because I want to help my fellow man but because in 1 or 2 years being a polieman will be the only way to protect yourself :mad:!
good move .... ;)
you have a licence to do all sorts of criminal activities
even you are convicted criminal you still stay in the force and not need to go to jail.
may be I have to join as well :D
sand_man
15-10-2009, 01:23 PM
An alleged illegal immigrant, without tax registration papers for his shop, was beaten and arrested when he tried to escape Johannesburg Metro Police Department officers during the continuation of a massive crime-prevention operation in the inner city yesterday.What am I missing here?
Illegal immigrant= transgression of the law,
no tax registration papers=transgression of the law,
tried to escape=transgression of the law....
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 01:26 PM
What am I missing here?
Illegal immigrant= transgression of the law,
no tax registration papers=transgression of the law,
tried to escape=transgression of the law....
Kicking someone in the head = Transgression of the law?
They were laying on the ground, stepping on them = transgression of the law?
Obviously what you are missing is an elevator that goes all the way to the top?
sand_man
15-10-2009, 01:29 PM
Kicking someone in the head = Transgression of the law?
They were laying on the ground, stepping on them = transgression of the law?
Obviously what you are missing is an elevator that goes all the way to the top?
Surely a suspect avoiding arrest and attempting to escape, forfeits his rights to be treated with diplomacy?
Cops are ducked if they do and ducked when they don't.
When they bungle arrests they condemned, when they make arrests they condemned...
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 01:31 PM
Surely a suspect avoiding arrest and attempting to escape, forfeits his rights to be treated with diplomacy?
Not when they are unarmed and lying on the floor with a gun pointed in their direction? These are not murderers or rapists, they are illegal imigrants :rolleyes:
Yippee they caught an illegal imigrant and his tenant, whoo I can sleep at night. C'mon there is a time for excessive force and a time for simply cuffing the guy and carting him off to the slammer. Policeman should know when the time for each is. They have to pass an exam to make it into the force, obviously the test isn't as stringant as it should be.
icyrus
15-10-2009, 01:34 PM
What am I missing here?
Due process.
sand_man
15-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Not when they are unarmed and lying on the floor with a gun pointed in their direction? These are not murderers or rapists, they are illegal imigrants :rolleyes:
Yippee they caught an illegal imigrant and his tenant, whoo I can sleep at night. C'mon there is a time for excessive force and a time for simply cuffing the guy and carting him off to the slammer. Policeman should know when the time for each is. They have to pass an exam to make it into the force, obviously the test isn't as stringant as it should be.I think there's more to the story than that.
The cops wouldn't have known they were simply illegal immigrants and it's the illegal immigrants in that part of town that run drugs, racketeering and jackings.
Why were the suspects avoiding arrest and attempting to flee?
Excessive force? In the South African context? Not convinced. Society is inherently violent. Policemens behavior is symptomatic of the greater pandemic...
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 01:46 PM
I think there's more to the story than that.
The cops wouldn't have known they were simply illegal immigrants and it's the illegal immigrants in that part of town that run drugs, racketeering and jackings.
Why were the suspects avoiding arrest and attempting to flee?
Excessive force? In the South African context? Not convinced. Society is inherently violent. Policemens behavior is symptomatic of the greater pandemic...
I can't profess to know more than what is said in the article and neither can you, so going on what the article says. They saw blue lights and made a run for it. Obviously if you are in the country illegally seeing blue lights coming in your direction is a bad thing so you run. Why wouldn't they avoid arrest? That is a silly question, if they wanted to do things by the book they wouldn't be in the country illegally.
You can not assume that some pakistani oak is drug dealing, racketeering or invloved in jacking? I mean really have you seen these guys? The worst they can do is sell copied movies...
So what you saying is 2 wrongs do make a right? I am sorry but "eish but they beat us, so it is only right we beat them" is not good enough from the police.
sand_man
15-10-2009, 01:53 PM
If you can't do the time don't do the crime...
Albereth
15-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I wonder if these plods will get the same punishment that those dog unit plods got a few years back for the stunt they pulled with the illegal?
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 01:57 PM
If you can't do the time don't do the crime...
Useless statement taken in context, they were on the ground hand behind their if due process was followed they would have still done their time? So why the need to kick them in the head as well as walk all over them...
I am sorry but your above statement proves you have run out of intelligent reposnses...
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:05 PM
They saw blue lights and made a run for it. Obviously if you are in the country illegally seeing blue lights coming in your direction is a bad thing so you run. Why wouldn't they avoid arrest? That is a silly question, if they wanted to do things by the book they wouldn't be in the country illegally.
.If you can't do the time don't do the crime... Let me put my statement into context. If they here illegally they need to accept there is a possibility they could get caught... one day.... Surely they had to have a better plan than, "if the cops come run for it"...
You have suspects avoiding arrest and attempting to flee the scene of the crime yet this article is about police brutality...
You now defending the criminals at the expense of the cops, the cops trying to do an exceptionally dangerous job under trying and challenging circumstances...
That's what I don't get...
davemc
15-10-2009, 02:18 PM
@ sandmanm, would you would appreciate your daughter getting beaten up by Police for skipping a Stop street?
i.e. Which crime is more serious, the skipping of the stop sign or the assault?
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 02:18 PM
If you can't do the time don't do the crime... Let me put my statement into context. If they here illegally they need to accept there is a possibility they could get caught... one day.... Surely they had to have a better plan than, "if the cops come run for it"...
You have suspects avoiding arrest and attempting to flee the scene of the crime yet this article is about police brutality...
You now defending the criminals at the expense of the cops, the cops trying to do an exceptionally dangerous job under trying and challenging circumstances...
That's what I don't get...
I am not defending the criminals so much as condmening the use of UNnecessary force by the police, it just reeks of the recent agrresion shown by cops, shooting without provocation ,etc. Policeman are becomin a law unto themselves which is not something I want to see...
Devill
15-10-2009, 02:18 PM
What am I missing here?
Illegal immigrant= transgression of the law,
no tax registration papers=transgression of the law,
tried to escape=transgression of the law....
If the court had not given a ruling on his case he is allegedly a criminal.
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:25 PM
@ sandmanm, would you would appreciate your daughter getting beaten up by Police for skipping a Stop street?
i.e. Which crime is more serious, the skipping of the stop sign or the assault?
If she fled the scene of the offence then yes... And skipping a stop street is a potentially fatal transgression of the law.
A car is a deadly weapon!! Jumping stop streets is like shooting into a crowd with a 9mm!!!!
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 02:29 PM
If she fled the scene of the offence then yes... And skipping a stop street is a potentially fatal transgression of the law.
A car is a deadly weapon!! Jumping stop streets is like shooting into a crowd with a 9mm!!!!
:erm: Wouldn't want you as a father :eek:
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:32 PM
I am not defending the criminals so much as condmening the use of UNnecessary force by the police, it just reeks of the recent agrresion shown by cops, shooting without provocation ,etc. Policeman are becomin a law unto themselves which is not something I want to see...Diplomacy apparently didn't work. The offenders were attempting to escape..
Again I reiterate, what is unnecessary force in the South African context? Our criminals rank amongst the most fearless and violent in the world.
You cannot be reasonable in how you approach and deal with that, as you, the policeman are not afordded the same courtesy.
We probably have one of the highest rates of police fatalities in the line of duty in the world too.... Come on!!! Cops job is near impossible...
For me this story is a positive. The authorities are clamping down, attempting to clean up the city and doing it with a policy of zero tolerance but all the news reporter can see is police brutality....
Any opportunity to dis the cops...
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:34 PM
:erm: Wouldn't want you as a father :eek:
Come on man!! How have you and me been brought up??!!!
You don't run away from the cops... Period.
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 02:36 PM
Diplomacy apparently didn't work. The offenders were attempting to escape..
Again I reiterate, what is unnecessary force in the South African context? Our criminals rank amongst the most fearless and violent in the world.
You cannot be reasonable in how you approach and deal with that, as you, the policeman are not afordded the same courtesy.
We probably have one of the highest rates of police fatalities in the line of duty in the world too.... Come on!!! Cops job is near impossible...
For me this story is a positive. The authorities are clamping down, attempting to clean up the city and doing it with a policy of zero tolerance but all the news reporter can see is police brutality....
Any opportunity to dis the cops...
Do not misunderstand me, I completely agree that the capture of these deadly offenders is a great triumph for the saps. Now as citizens we can sleep with our doors open and our wallets on the counter...
What I find ironic is that you are probably one of the people that when the police gun down innocent people you jump on the side of the people flogging the cops as do I in that situation. But now when the police do the same thing, you jump to their defense? ALso please do not say it is 2 different things. Excessive force is excessive force.
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:37 PM
If the court had not given a ruling on his case he is allegedly a criminal.
Pretty sure they guilty. An innocent man doesn't run away:D Running is an admission of guilt...
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 02:37 PM
Come on man!! How have you and me been brought up??!!!
You don't run away from the cops... Period.
I agree, if you are in the wrong you take your punishment...
But the means dont always justify the end?
sand_man
15-10-2009, 02:44 PM
What I find ironic is that you are probably one of the people that when the police gun down innocent people you jump on the side of the people flogging the cops as do I in that situation. But now when the police do the same thing, you jump to their defense? ALso please do not say it is 2 different things. Excessive force is excessive force.Are you saying that shooting someone dead and giving someone a solid punch equates to equal distribution of force:confused:
Just the other day the cops shot dead a suspected hijacker who clearly had nothing to do with the jacking investigated. Under those circumstances the negligent and incompetent behavior of the cops deserves every ounce of admonishment but in this case, and it is MOST DEFINITELY 2 DIFFERENT THINGS, the cops have used the necessary force to stop and arrest fleeing suspects!!!
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Are you saying that shooting someone dead and giving someone a solid punch equates to equal distribution of force:confused:
Just the other day the cops shot dead a suspected hijacker who clearly had nothing to do with the jacking investigated. Under those circumstances the negligent and incompetent behavior of the cops deserves every ounce of admonishment but in this case, and it is MOST DEFINITELY 2 DIFFERENT THINGS, the cops have used the necessary force to stop and arrest fleeing suspects!!!
I am sorry this is a point where we will continue to disagree, Kicking someone laying on the ground with their hand behind their head and walking all over them is DEFINATELY NOT use of necessary force!
matt loves telkom
15-10-2009, 02:59 PM
last night i got pulled over by a cop.i wasnt doing anything wrong but the fact its a cop you MUST stop and oblige (yes i know we have dodgy characters out there acting like officers). The fact these illegal immigrants were running away is unacceptable!!!
and i dont even wanna know how rough the police in some other countries are.....
they must get klapped.... im with sandman here :p
JungleBoy
15-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Your arguments ring hollow in the face of the recent murder of Captain Charl Scheepers. He tried to follow due process by warning the thug to drop his weapon. The thug responded with fire and now he is dead.
We have now lost one member of the force...simple because he followed due processes...the thug on the other hand will live to commit other crimes...
I'm with Sandman on this one - you can't have police's hands tied behind their backs and yet expect them to arrest hardened criminals like the ones we have in our country?
Man resisting arrest, trying to get away from arrest, deserves to be treated with maximum force
I am sorry this is a point where we will continue to disagree, Kicking someone laying on the ground with their hand behind their head and walking all over them is DEFINATELY NOT use of necessary force!
I'm not for violence but maybe the guy on the ground were saying things like the k word? And and.....
JungleBoy
15-10-2009, 03:08 PM
I'm not for violence but maybe the guy on the ground were saying things like the k word? And and.....
so the cop could have retaliated with the p word :D
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:09 PM
Your arguments ring hollow in the face of the recent murder of Captain Charl Scheepers. He tried to follow due process by warning the thug to drop his weapon. The thug responded with fire and now he is dead.
We have now lost one member of the force...simple because he followed due processes...the thug on the other hand will live to commit other crimes...
I'm with Sandman on this one - you can't have police's hands tied behind their backs and yet expect them to arrest hardened criminals like the ones we have in our country?
Man resisting arrest, trying to get away from arrest, deserves to be treated with maximum force
2 different situations... These guys were laying flat on the ground with their hand behind their head?! As I say a policeman should know when force is necessary!
so the cop could have retaliated with the p word :D
:D:D
icyrus
15-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Diplomacy apparently didn't work. The offenders were attempting to escape..
Did you even look at the linked article, let alone read it?
icyrus
15-10-2009, 03:22 PM
Your arguments ring hollow in the face of the recent murder of Captain Charl Scheepers. He tried to follow due process by warning the thug to drop his weapon. The thug responded with fire and now he is dead.
We have now lost one member of the force...simple because he followed due processes...the thug on the other hand will live to commit other crimes...
I'm with Sandman on this one - you can't have police's hands tied behind their backs and yet expect them to arrest hardened criminals like the ones we have in our country?
Man resisting arrest, trying to get away from arrest, deserves to be treated with maximum force
And when they shoot innocent motorist because they have no respect for due process?
JungleBoy
15-10-2009, 03:26 PM
2 different situations... These guys were laying flat on the ground with their hand behind their head?! As I say a policeman should know when force is necessary!
I swear I saw somthing about the thug having grabbed the cop's ankle. To me that does not sound like he he was lying down with his hands behind his head.
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:30 PM
I swear I saw somthing about the thug having grabbed the cop's ankle. To me that does not sound like he he was lying down with his hands behind his head.
He did indeed grab the officers anle after the officer walked over him and dug his foot into the 'thugs' shoulder?!
rebel998
15-10-2009, 03:30 PM
You need a criminal to catch a criminal.
There are many good cops out there but they are the minority, the most cops are corrupt and useless.:D
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:31 PM
You need a criminal to catch a criminal.
There are many good cops out there but they are the minority, the most cops are corrupt and useless.:D
:erm: And you are happy about that? Reffering to ===>>> :D
icyrus
15-10-2009, 03:32 PM
I swear I saw somthing about the thug having grabbed the cop's ankle. To me that does not sound like he he was lying down with his hands behind his head.
This:
He did indeed grab the officers anle after the officer walked over him and dug his foot into the 'thugs' shoulder?!
And this is the legal resident who they soon after released as he was just an innocent tenant. Some thug huh.
How hard is it to RTFA before commenting?
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:33 PM
This:
And this is the legal resident who they soon after released as he was just an innocent tenant. Some thug huh.
It doesn't help debating with someone who hasn't even read the article properly or viewed the large pics...
matt loves telkom
15-10-2009, 03:33 PM
if you run away from an Officer of the Law you must get geklapped.....
i dont feel any sympathy for someone who runs away.if a police officer tells you to stop you stop...end of story.
rebel998
15-10-2009, 03:35 PM
:erm: And you are happy about that? Reffering to ===>>> :D
LOL!!:D
DreamKing
15-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Diplomacy apparently didn't work. The offenders were attempting to escape..
Again I reiterate, what is unnecessary force in the South African context? Our criminals rank amongst the most fearless and violent in the world.
You cannot be reasonable in how you approach and deal with that, as you, the policeman are not afordded the same courtesy.
We probably have one of the highest rates of police fatalities in the line of duty in the world too.... Come on!!! Cops job is near impossible...
For me this story is a positive. The authorities are clamping down, attempting to clean up the city and doing it with a policy of zero tolerance but all the news reporter can see is police brutality....
Any opportunity to dis the cops...
Sorry, I cannot agree with you ..............
the spirit of common law (criminal procedure in South Africa) is presumed suspect is not guilty before prosecution side proved the suspect is guilty.
On the other hand up until the prosecution authority proved the suspect is guilty, the suspect is still a suspect. He is not a criminal.
1) Police cannot act like a criminal.
2) Police should presume every person is a suspect, not a criminal.
3) Police should not have right for power abuse.
4) Police should have conducts, discipline, and show respect to every civilian.
5) Police should not use excessive force for any arrest.
6) Police should be clean, no criminal charges against him/her.
7) Police should show he/she is a law executor, not law of himself/herself. (obey laws)
I understand the criminals in South Africa are dangerous and police should use force to against them, but it is not the excuse. Polices have the right to protect him/her, but it does not mean can use the force to against innocent civilians.
Why so many criminal on the street?
1) Fail of SAPS / Metro police, too many corruptions.
2) Fail of intelligence agency, not enough information for criminal activities.
3) Fail of crime prevention and education of the public.
4) Fail of public images of police.
5) Fail of training of police.
6) Fail of supports from the civilians. (because of poor image of police.)
7) Convicted cops are still patrolling on the street.
8) Fail of police equipments
“Shoot to kill” is a if and only if situation of immediate life – threaten.
“violated the rights of citizens” will only make the corrupt police more power for corruptions and power abuses. It is no any help for crime fighting.
I can tell you “prevention” is the most important part of crime fighting.
If polices are corrupted, it is NO CRIME PREVENTION available.
More than 90% of crime should be prevented.
Investigation will spend more than 10 times or more efforts than crime prevention.
JungleBoy
15-10-2009, 03:38 PM
And when they shoot innocent motorist because they have no respect for due process?
I am not condoning the cops' behaviour in that case but the moment a suspect is resisting arrest things could turn out badly for the cop.
Grabbing a cop's ankle means that the suspect is not complying with the orders. If the cop say hands you better put your hands up and keep them there until they are cuffed.
Volt4ge
15-10-2009, 03:38 PM
only way to show a criminal that is not incharge is to use violence
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:40 PM
I am not condoning the cops' behaviour in that case but the moment a suspect is resisting arrest things could turn out badly for the cop.
Grabbing a cop's ankle means that the suspect is not complying with the orders. If the cop say hands you better put your hands up and keep them there until they are cuffed.
Once again Please do us all a favour and RTFA!
DreamKing
15-10-2009, 03:45 PM
only way to show a criminal that is not incharge is to use violence
so you are ok the polices act like serial-killers ........
one day they will shoot to kill your family or you because they think you are a criminal, you like that?
rebel998
15-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Anyone who's chased a suspect for a few blocks would know what it feels like once you've caught him. You're highly charged with adrenaline and reacting in a violent manner is a normal reaction.(To be avoided of course)
But standing on someone and lifting your leg to heel him in the face is difficult to justify.:D
Volt4ge
15-10-2009, 03:51 PM
so you are ok the polices act like serial-killers ........
one day they will shoot to kill your family or you because they think you are a criminal, you like that?
getting a solid punch to the head.. isnt a serial killer move it just shows authority
if they were serial killers they wouldnt of beat them.. they would of shot and killed them... or pulled a knife and slit their throats...
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 03:55 PM
getting a solid punch to the head.. isnt a serial killer move it just shows authority
if they were serial killers they wouldnt of beat them.. they would of shot and killed them... or pulled a knife and slit their throats...
You have to crawl before you can walk. First they will see they can get away with little things like beating a suspect while lying on the ground and from there it will progress...
DreamKing
15-10-2009, 04:20 PM
getting a solid punch to the head.. isnt a serial killer move it just shows authority
if they were serial killers they wouldnt of beat them.. they would of shot and killed them... or pulled a knife and slit their throats...
show your warrant card or pass ......
so I punch your head then it makes me a police? :confused: ... :D
Blaze786
15-10-2009, 04:23 PM
show your warrant card or pass ......
so I punch your head then it makes me a police? :confused: ... :D
LOL! As I have said before your posts make me smile :p
sand_man
15-10-2009, 05:19 PM
Did you even look at the linked article, let alone read it?Have you? Presumably to have quoted from the article I needed to have read it 1st:confused:
The opening paragraph sums it up for me.
Let me highlight the pertinent points for you...
An alleged illegal immigrant, without tax registration papers for his shop, was beaten and arrested when he tried to escape Johannesburg Metro Police Department officers during the continuation of a massive crime-prevention operation in the inner city yesterday.
icyrus
15-10-2009, 05:32 PM
Have you? Presumably to have quoted from the article I needed to have read it 1st:confused:
The opening paragraph sums it up for me.
Let me highlight the pertinent points for you...
Clearly it's a lack of comprehension on your part then. I'll help you:
An alleged illegal immigrant
While his colleagues kept their weapons trained on the suspects, an officer jumped to ground level and walked over to the two men. He stood on the shop owner's shoulder with his left foot and, lifting his right foot as high as his hip, swung it down to connect with the back of the suspects head
The officer planted his foot on the second suspect's upper thigh. The man screamed and grabbed hold of the officer's ankle. The officer then kicked him.
The second man was released when it was found that he was a resident who rented a room in the back of the building.
Or perhaps the problem is genetic.
sand_man
15-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Steps taken to prevent the suspects from attempting to escape a 2nd time. And they didn't so can assume the steps taken were effective.
Why were the suspects running in the 1st place? When you get pulled over by Metro or SAP is your instinct to run?
Or perhaps the problem is geneticWhat problem are you referring to?
rebel998
15-10-2009, 05:47 PM
When you get pulled over by Metro or SAP is your instinct to run?
Like hell yes! Those guys have guns. And they want to, but don't know how to use them!:D
wrathex
15-10-2009, 06:05 PM
Do officers of the law not shout: "Put your hands where I/we can see them !"
Looking at the photograph of the presumed criminal, it is obvious his right hand is not visible (like suspect no 2), in fact it looks like he might have been
reaching for something on the inside of his jacket.
In a case like that, a policemen would take physical action, he would immediately use force to control the supposed criminal who is not following orders.
So all that is fine, however, standing on the suspects back and giving him a hard kick in the head is not fine.
Standing on his back to keep him down would be permissable, the kick to the head is the no-no here.
This policemen should be punished/admonished/demoted, he was doing his job, but he went overboard.
Unfortunately when you have a brutal crime culture, you also get a brutal policeforce to counter the balance.
matt loves telkom
15-10-2009, 06:16 PM
it would have been better if the guy switched to video mode :rolleyes:
Well, case is clear:
An alleged illegal immigrant, without tax registration papers for his shop
He is not paying tax so police brutality is OK. How he thinks that our government can work without new BMW's? And collecting from bank accounts after electricity hike is not likely to bring sufficient founds.
rebel998
15-10-2009, 10:19 PM
Its NEVER ok.
They are supposed to be able to handle anger and conflict situations. No use chasing a guy down if he's going to walk 'cause you violated his rights.:D