A Story of a White African...

[Rendier]

(Something that I wrote)

A story of a White African…

I wish I could start this story off by saying “not so long ago”… but that would be very ignorant of me, for I am only 26 years old but yet my life began long before that. The story of my life began in 1948.

It was in that year that D.F. Malan implemented something that altered the course of South Africa forever… It affected all ethnicities of this beautiful country; it changed the lives of millions and would continue to do so long after it was abolished. I am talking of course of Apartheid. That name, "Apartheid", sigh… an Afrikaans name known all across the globe, a name that represents oppression, torture, sadness and so many other terrible things, a name that struck fear into the hearts of millions for over half a decade.

However… it is also a name that has been used as an excuse for incompetence, corruption, laziness and so many other terrible things. It’s a name that has turned into an excuse, rather than a terrible mistake and most of all… it’s a name that negatively portray the millions of white youth of this country.

You see, this story is not your average South African story… this story is one told without fear of reprimand, without fear of consequence and mostly… without fear of being labeled a racist.

The history books will show you that in 1994 this country became a democratic nation; the international media will have you believe that since then, all is well and thriving in this great nation, that white and black are hand in hand dancing off into the sunset… if this were only true.

There is saying that can sum up everything I want to say with regards to South Africa post 1994… it goes as follows:

“Sins of the Father”

Never has a saying rung so true for a specific ethnicity in this country. You see, since 1994 the white youth of this country have been punished for crimes not committed by them, they have been accused of being advantaged, being racists, being the oppressors and so many other things. They also have to endure being discriminated against, being labeled by an international community as narrow minded and selfish to name a few.

The discrimination within this country has become so unbearable that for millions of the white youth the only option has been to immigrate and once that has been achieved, they have to endure ridicule from the ill-informed international community.

Let me ask you this simple question:

If your father committed a crime, could you be held accountable for that crime if you had nothing to do with it?

I’m quite sure your answer would be “no”… so then please explain the following to me:

Why are we, as Young White South Africans:
• Labeled as Racists by fellow countrymen and people abroad?
• Blamed for Apartheid?
• Being discriminated against? (AA and BEE)
• Punished for something we had no control over?
• Not given a job if qualified?
• Told to leave the country because we don’t belong here?

I would love for YOU to give us an explanation to the questions we pose… YOU being the one that insult us and call us racists, yet no nothing about us or our circumstances, YOU being the one that so quickly judge us and blame us for Apartheid yet no nothing about the past and current events in this country, YOU being the one that tell us that should deal with discrimination because that is what the black man had to deal with for over 50 years yet forget that we didn’t cause Apartheid. YOU being the one that live in a peaceful crime free neighborhood overseas yet tell us that we overreact when we say that 55 murders a day are too much, YOU being the one that have luxuries in life yet attack us for exposing the governments lack of interest for people that don’t even have the basic necessities, YOU being the one with a nice comfortable career yet tell us that we’re inconsiderate towards the less qualified black men that got the job we applied for and lastly… YOU being the one that tell us that we should leave the country because we are white and therefore don’t belong in Africa

I am one of those Young White South Africans… and I want to tell you this:

I was born in Africa; therefore I am African and have just as much a right as any other Black-, Colored-, Indian- or Asian African to call this land my home. I will not feel guilty for being a White South African and I will definitely NOT apologise for Apartheid. I had no hand in it and I, still to this day, don’t agree with it.

I am a White African… and I am Proud of it.

[Weasley]

/gets out his popcorn

[RazedInBlack]

Yeah OK! FFS! :mad:

[blaaislaai]

I see you bringing your youtube stuff to mybb. Hopefully it will be just as successful as youtube.

Agree with you Rendier on every point you make!

[Rendier]

Yeah OK! FFS! :mad:

?

[psichron]

You're not going to influence the people who you are addressing in the story. If your story is a "call to arms" for other White Africans, then it's not going to make a difference either. After so many years there are still those that feel ashamed to be white, they are a lost cause. The rest of us have moved on and just don't care about the ignorant that try to blame us for things that happened before we were born.

[Naks]

If your father committed a crime, could you be held accountable for that crime if you had nothing to do with it?

really? you did not benefit from the crimes your forefathers committed? You must be the first one then...

this response is from an acquaintance of mine on a similar discussion:


Revelling in the ill-gotten gains your immediate ancestors got by crook more than by hook is the moral equivalent of receiving stolen goods - Conrad says something about robbery on a grand scale in 1898, and just over 110 years later some people still seem to believe their way of living came about by accident and that they have no moral culpability.

If young white South Africans asked their parents what they did after 1977 (when internal white dissent became more public, more possible, though still at a cost) and after 1975 respectively, the answers would probably be very disconcerting for all concerned, hence its careful avoidance in middle class homes. Who, after all, served in those racist armed forces (and who were conscientious objectors!), who were police informants (and who were detainees), and how many voted for Botha and Ian Smith ... again, the answers would probably creep a whole lot of young people out. And if they dug just a little, they may find that their nice family home is built on land expropriated from people who are STILL ALIVE.

[Fudzy]

Self pity much?

[Mila]

/gets out his popcorn

Please pass me some:D Here we go....

[psichron]

really? you did not benefit from the crimes your forefathers committed? You must be the first one then...

Even if you benefit from it, you are still not accountable. It just means that you have a responsibility to help fix the errors of the past, but it does not mean you are responsible for the misdeeds that happened before you were born.

[Naks]

Even if you benefit from it, you are still not accountable. It just means that you have a responsibility to help fix the errors of the past, but it does not mean you are responsible for the misdeeds that happened before you were born.

Not accountable, rather morally culpable. As you say, you have a moral responsibility to help fix it.

And how many white people do you see doing this?

Case in point - did anyone see the Carte Blanche doccie about the whiteys in Claremont refusing to let the displaced coloured back into "their" upmarket suburb because they fear a drop in the property prices *puke*

[phoneJunky]

But how do you fix things?

[psichron]

And how many white people do you see doing this?


I see many.

[Mila]

Case in point - did anyone see the Carte Blanche doccie about the whiteys in Claremont refusing to let the displaced coloured back into "their" upmarket suburb because they fear a drop in the property prices *puke*


Go squat next to Juiliasss and see how happy he is.

[blaaislaai]

But how do you fix things?

We civilians can't fix it. It's up too the government to help us,

But clearly they don't care about this country

[Fudzy]

Do any other young whites here feel victimised as much as Rendier?

[Naks]

We civilians can't fix it. It's up too the government to help us, But clearly they don't care about this country


Governments, esp in third world countries, care only about one thing - how to keep themselves in power.

to think otherwise is naive and dangerous

[I am Penguin]

But how do you fix things?

Get all whites forced/wanting to leave refugee staus abroad!

[psichron]

It's the job of the government to fix it, just like it was the government of the past that caused it.

As a citizen you can help by paying your taxes.

The government do care about our country though. BEE and AA are one way of trying to equalize the country, but the simplest method to do this is through quality education.

Unfortunately the ZA government is still screwing up this most important element needed for an improved social environment and better quality of living.

[phoneJunky]

I see many.

How many is many?

And it has to be us all... Every one of us, every one that is able. Everyone earning more than R4000 a month is able, but we are inherently evil (I can remember something of lord of the flies).

We all have a picture in our minds as how we are supposed to live, and if we can not get there we will not help people to better their lives. I am not talking about employing someone etc. I am saying if each of us help one disadvantaged child through school, helping them to get a real good education our country will be much better of in 12 years. But none of us are willing to go that far, except for a few people I have seen.

[psichron]

How many is many?

And it has to be us all...

That is impossible, you cannot change people so easily. But I am seeing a change in my peer group, the people now in their 20's. They are patriotic and optimistic about their country. They understand the past of South Africa and understand that they need to play a role in rectifying the mistakes of the past. Many of us are trying, but of course no newspaper will report on this. No sensationalist media show will tell you that.

You just have to look a little further than your own xenophobic beliefs to see us.

[Syndyre]

really? you did not benefit from the crimes your forefathers committed? You must be the first one then...


Are you implying then that all whites committed crimes?

[I am Penguin]

.......You just have to look a little further than your own xenophobic beliefs to see us.

xenophobic = african name for extreme applied racism

[phoneJunky]

We civilians can't fix it. It's up too the government to help us,

But clearly they don't care about this country

Why can't civilians fix it. The government can't fix it even if they try. We as civilians should fix it. We have two groups of people that contradicts each other, one group is saying things isn't happening fast enough and one the other hand we have a group saying we shouldn't apply AA and BEE, which would make transition slower, but would make the economy better. All the government can do is find a balance with policies so that people don't kill each other in frustration. And both these two groups are already frustrated.

How do you fix this. Civilians have to fix it by addressing the problems around them. Don't tell me we pay tax and the government should do the rest as we can make a difference even if it is just to one person.

[rebel998]

Why are we, as Young White South Africans:
• Labeled as Racists by fellow countrymen and people abroad?
• Blamed for Apartheid?
• Being discriminated against? (AA and BEE)
• Punished for something we had no control over?
• Not given a job if qualified?
• Told to leave the country because we don’t belong here?



Because you're white?

Anybody with have a brain knows the apartheid system hurt many people.

Yet not everybody will admit that it created a nation of bitter people.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, "they" are now in power and almost all prominent positions in government is held by blacks.

The security forces are mainly black, the hospitals and other state institutions are all dominated by blacks.

So who here wants to tell me that there is no sense of retalliation amongst black people in general?

So now, the same thing is done against whites. They can not find work, can not rely on the security forces to protect them, can not expect decent medical treatment when going to a hospital.

In a due time this will just create another generation of bitter hatefull people, is that what damocracy really represent?:D

[joelus]

Never has a saying rung so true for a specific ethnicity in this country. You see, since 1994 the white youth of this country have been punished for crimes not committed by them, they have been accused of being advantaged, being racists, being the oppressors and so many other things. They also have to endure being discriminated against, being labeled by an international community as narrow minded and selfish to name a few.

The discrimination within this country has become so unbearable that for millions of the white youth the only option has been to immigrate and once that has been achieved, they have to endure ridicule from the ill-informed international community.


JFC, stop being such a victim.
Nobody is blaming you, nobody is punishing you, stop being so frakkin paranoid.

Personally, if waking up in the morning with a beautiful view of table mountain, getting in my car and driving to my reasonably paid job, sipping cocktails on the beach after work before going to late night movies is considered punishment, then punish me more. All I know is my quality of life is better and easier than that of my siblings, both of whom have immigrated.
Get over yourself. There is nothing unbearable about it. I personally have never felt discriminated against and I've lived here my whole life. Who, besides Julius, has accused you of being racist for no reason? Tell me.
Who, in the international community, has labeled you as narrow minded and selfish? Show me.





Why are we, as Young White South Africans:
• Labeled as Racists by fellow countrymen and people abroad?
• Blamed for Apartheid?
• Being discriminated against? (AA and BEE)
• Punished for something we had no control over?
• Not given a job if qualified?
• Told to leave the country because we don’t belong here?




Some people are racist, which is why they are labeled as such. If you're not one, then don't take it on. I don't get all defensive because people call men rapists. I'm a man whose not a rapist so I don't take it on.
Who blames you for apartheid exactly?
AA/BEE is an attempt to rebalance the imbalances in our society created by apartheid. It is not racist and is not punishment.
Nobody is punishing you ffs. Believe it or not, most non-whites are actually worse off than you
It's called competition. Just because you are qualified doesn't mean you're the most suitable candidate. Since the majority of white people are employed
it doesn't appear to be racially motivated.
Who told you to leave the country because you don’t belong here?
Sure, there are racist people who might think that way, it's not a general way of thinking though. Nobody ever told me to leave. In fact there are numerous orginizations and people dedicated to getting white people to stay and come back here.




I would love for YOU to give us an explanation to the questions we pose…
YOU being the one that insult us and call us racists, yet no nothing about us or our circumstances, YOU being the one that so quickly judge us and blame us for Apartheid yet no nothing about the past and current events in this country, YOU being the one that tell us that should deal with discrimination because that is what the black man had to deal with for over 50 years yet forget that we didn’t cause Apartheid. YOU being the one that live in a peaceful crime free neighborhood overseas yet tell us that we overreact when we say that 55 murders a day are too much, YOU being the one that have luxuries in life yet attack us for exposing the governments lack of interest for people that don’t even have the basic necessities, YOU being the one with a nice comfortable career yet tell us that we’re inconsiderate towards the less qualified black men that got the job we applied for and lastly… YOU being the one that tell us that we should leave the country because we are white and therefore don’t belong in Africa


whine whine whine, it's people like you who make me wonder what kind of future this country has. I don't know anyone anywhere who says we over-react when saying 55 murders a day is too much. Show me these people, I don't believe it.

[psichron]

xenophobic = african name for extreme applied racism

No, racism = discrimination based on race.
xenophobic = fear of things that are different from you.

[blaaislaai]

Why can't civilians fix it. The government can't fix it even if they try. We as civilians should fix it. We have two groups of people that contradicts each other, one group is saying things isn't happening fast enough and one the other hand we have a group saying we shouldn't apply AA and BEE, which would make transition slower, but would make the economy better. All the government can do is find a balance with policies so that people don't kill each other in frustration. And both these two groups are already frustrated.

How do you fix this. Civilians have to fix it by addressing the problems around them. Don't tell me we pay tax and the government should do the rest as we can make a difference even if it is just to one person.

Try to fix this and get thrown into jail.

I really can't think of a way to fix this situation in this country.
Marching through streets or toi toi-ing won't work.

[psichron]

Show me these people, I don't believe it.

Ladies and gentleman, I present to you the only person on these forums with sense.

[phoneJunky]

That is impossible, you cannot change people so easily. But I am seeing a change in my peer group, the people now in their 20's. They are patriotic and optimistic about their country. They understand the past of South Africa and understand that they need to play a role in rectifying the mistakes of the past. Many of us are trying, but of course no newspaper will report on this. No sensationalist media show will tell you that.

You just have to look a little further than your own xenophobic beliefs to see us.

What xenophobic beliefs have I portrait? I am not scared of any culture. I am also in my 20s and I am patriotic and optimistic that is why I am saying we all have to help and that we all have a roll to play within this country of ours.

[BCO]

really? you did not benefit from the crimes your forefathers committed? You must be the first one then...

this response is from an acquaintance of mine on a similar discussion:

+1. Nice quote too.

I'm always amazed at how so many young whites seem to think they received no benefit from the apartheid system at all.

[psichron]

What xenophobic beliefs have I portrait?

I'm not talking about you.

[psichron]

I'm always amazed at how so many young whites seem to think they received no benefit from the apartheid system at all.

I'm always amazed at how so many people who say this exact thing miss the point entirely.

[Naks]

Are you implying then that all whites committed crimes?


Some people would argue that implicitely yes. But I do not agree with that line of thought

What is unquestionable though, is that most, if not all, white people benefited from apartheid. And their descendants are still benefiting from it.

[BCO]

I'm always amazed at how so many people who say this exact thing miss the point entirely.

And what's the point?

[BCO]

Some people would argue that implicitely yes. But I do not agree with that line of thought

What is unquestionable though, is that most, if not all, white people benefited from apartheid. And their descendants are still benefiting from it.

+1 again :)

[psichron]

And what's the point?

No white person has ever said that they did not benefit from the apartheid system. Young white South Africans are just saying that they are not responsible for what happened.

[I am Penguin]

No, racism = discrimination based on race.
xenophobic = fear of things that are different from you.

So if i fear things (in this case another race/foreigners) and discriminate against them as well as kill them for what they are and becuase they are in this country then that is not racism? As said it was a word applied by powers to prevent the figers to be pointed at them for cruel racism.

Coulour the picture as you please, it does not change the facts.

[BCO]

No white person has ever said that they did not benefit from the apartheid system. Young white South Africans are just saying that they are not responsible for what happened.

So if the OP is agreeing that he benefitted from an evil and unfair system, then why's he crying about having to make sacrifices in the name of reparation?

[psichron]

Coulour the picture as you please, it does not cgange the facts.

Oh yes, you are the colouring book man. You said "xenophobia" is an African term. This is wrong. But I'm not going to argue you because you are known to "colour" words differently than what they actually mean.

[psichron]

So if the OP is agreeing that he benefitted from an evil and unfair system, then why's he crying about having to make sacrifices in the name of reparation?

He's not crying about that. He is crying because he is being marginalized for the mistakes his parents made in the past.
He's being called a racist. He's being called a colonist. He's being called a foreigner in his own country.

[Naks]

Young white South Africans are just saying that they are not responsible for what happened.

while they sip afternoon cocktails in their multimillion-buck houses (built on land their fathers stole, nogal), complaining to each other how this country 'is going to the dogs' now that the 'blacks' are in power? :rolleyes:

[I am Penguin]

Oh yes, you are the colouring book man. You said "xenophobia" is an African term. This is wrong. But I'm not going to argue you because you are known to "colour" words differently than what they actually mean.

No this is a case where the media, government and many members on MyBB prefer to argue that the racist acts performed against foreigners was best termed as "Xenophobia" instead of Racephobia!

[Mila]

while they sip afternoon cocktails in their multimillion-buck houses (built on land their fathers stole, nogal), complaining to each other how this country 'is going to the dogs' now that the 'blacks' are in power? :rolleyes:

Stole from?:confused:

[psichron]

while they sip afternoon cocktails in their multimillion-buck houses (built on land their fathers stole, nogal), complaining to each other how this country 'is going to the dogs' now that the 'blacks' are in power? :rolleyes:

Yes, even while doing that. And imagining "horrible" scenes like this does not make them wrong.

[phoneJunky]

No this is a case where the media, government and many members on MyBB prefer to argue that the racist acts performed against foreigners was best termed as "Xenophobia" instead of Racephobia!

The xenophobic attacs were people killing each other from the same race, but from different ethnicities. There are definitions for words and we have to use them correctly.

[psichron]

I_am_Penguin: And there you just totally destroyed any chance of intelligent conversation... Well, it's been nice talking to you all. I would've like to chat more with Naks and BCO, but I'm guessing after what I_am_Penguin just said this is just going to turn into an ad hominem flamewar.

[Naks]

Stole from?:confused:

good grief. if you have to ask...



Yes, even while doing that. And imagining "horrible" scenes like this does not make them wrong.

and you wonder why the victims of apartheid cannot forgive? *sigh*

[Mila]

good grief. if you have to ask...


Yes I have to ask, show me that the white people stole this land from you.

[psichron]

and you wonder why the victims of apartheid cannot forgive? *sigh*

It's not like there's not thousands of black people sitting in their multi-million buck homes sipping cocktails... It's not a white thing anymore. Why don't you get pissed off at these people too?

[Mila]

It's not like there's not thousands of black people sitting in their multi-million buck homes sipping cocktails... It's not a white thing anymore. Why don't you get pissed off at these people too?

Because that is xenophobia and acceptable and if its a white guy its racism.

[I am Penguin]

I_am_Penguin: And there you just totally destroyed any chance of intelligent conversation... Well, it's been nice talking to you all. I would've like to chat more with Naks and BCO, but I'm guessing after what I_am_Penguin just said this is just going to turn into an ad hominem flamewar.

I thought as much, once we stretch the date backward and mention facts ask real questions then that is the response.

Enjoy your chat. I am out of this thread, should never even bothered to respond to reverse racism.

[psichron]

Yes I have to ask, show me that the white people stole this land from you.

What we know is that the north of South Africa was originally inhabited by Xhosa's and Zulu's, and the south was inhabited by the khoisan/nomadic people.

When the white colonists landed in the cape, they started driving the khoisan (Who did not have farms or own any land remember) towards the North and enslaving them. At the same time, the black tribes from the North were driving the nomads South and killing them for farmland.

So if you leave out the horrible genocide of the nomadic people's that originally inhabited South Africa and you just look at the white and black races you'll see that the Western Cape, Northern Cape and parts of Eastern Cape were originally white. Kwazulu-Natal/Gauten and the North-eastern part of South Africa is originally black.

I'm not making this up, you can double check this info on the government history pages.

So actually, the whole of South Africa belongs to the "boesmans". But how well are they represented in government? And since they didn't have farms to begin with, can you say that anybody took their land?

[Naks]

Yes I have to ask, show me that the white people stole this land from you.

I did not claim land was stolen from me.

What I am saying is that when the Group Areas Act came into effect, non-whites were forcefully displaced and their land stolen by whites. That is a historical fact, e.g., District 6, Claremont, etc.



And YOUR forefathers did not steal this land from the foremer rightfull owners ....


2. Actually no. I'm not a safa, and I live here because I am married to one and we wouldn't dream of living anywhere but here :)

and two wrongs do not make a right. We know better now, at least some of us do...

[phoneJunky]

Yes, Penguin. You could argue that the black people moving south displaced the khoi-san from their land (most of south africa) and that is the same thing that the europeans did.

But there are some subtle differences between the southwards migration of the nguni people and the colonization from europe. The europeans introduced new things to the african continent such as law, and this law was build on perceptions that certain people are more important/superior than others etc.

[I am Penguin]

.and two wrongs do not make a right. We know better now, at least some of us do...

Thanks for the above, thus BEE and AA would not solve anything either but further enrich the Zumas ET Al of this country

[Mila]

What we know is that the north of South Africa was originally inhabited by Xhosa's and Zulu's, and the south was inhabited by the khoisan/nomadic people.

When the white colonists landed in the cape, they started driving the khoisan (Who did not have farms or own any land remember) towards the North and enslaving them. At the same time, the black tribes from the North were driving the nomads South and killing them for farmland.

So if you leave out the horrible genocide of the nomadic people's that originally inhabited South Africa and you just look at the white and black races you'll see that the Western Cape, Northern Cape and parts of Eastern Cape were originally white. Kwazulu-Natal/Gauten and the North-eastern part of South Africa is originally black.

I'm not making this up, you can double check this info on the government history pages.

And if you read about this remember to read that the Xhosa's and Zulu's migrated here from the north round about the same time that the colonialist came here. Remember not to read just what you want to read.

And we claim to the world to be the cradle of human kind but you come here and have a tit for tat fight who came here first.

If this is the cradle of human kind does that not include the whole human race or are some more equal than others again?

[joelus]

Yes I have to ask, show me that the white people stole this land from you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_under_apartheid#Forced_removals

During the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s, the government implemented a policy of 'resettlement', to force people to move to their designated "group areas". Some argue that over three and a half million people were forced to resettle during this period. These removals included people re-located due to slum clearance programmes, labour tenants on white-owned farms, the inhabitants of the so-called 'black spots', areas of black-owned land surrounded by white farms, the families of workers living in townships close to the homelands, and 'surplus people' from urban areas, including thousands of people from the Western Cape (which was declared a 'Coloured Labour Preference Area'[50]) who were moved to the Transkei and Ciskei homelands. The best-publicised forced removals of the 1950s occurred in Johannesburg, when 60,000 people were moved to the new township of Soweto, an abbreviation for South Western Townships.[51][52]

Until 1955 Sophiatown had been one of the few urban areas where blacks were allowed to own land, and was slowly developing into a multiracial slum. As industry in Johannesburg grew, Sophiatown became the home of a rapidly expanding black workforce, as it was convenient and close to town. It could also boast the only swimming pool for black children in Johannesburg.[53] As one of the oldest black settlements in Johannesburg, Sophiatown held an almost symbolic importance for the 50,000 blacks it contained, both in terms of its sheer vibrancy and its unique culture. Despite a vigorous ANC protest campaign and worldwide publicity, the removal of Sophiatown began on 9 February 1955 under the Western Areas Removal Scheme. In the early hours, heavily armed police entered Sophiatown to force residents out of their homes and load their belongings onto government trucks. The residents were taken to a large tract of land, thirteen miles (19 km) from the city centre, known as Meadowlands (that the government had purchased in 1953). Meadowlands became part of a new planned black city called Soweto. The Sophiatown slum was destroyed by bulldozers, and a new white suburb named Triomf (Triumph) was built in its place.

[phoneJunky]

What we know is that the north of South Africa was originally inhabited by Xhosa's and Zulu's, and the south was inhabited by the khoisan/nomadic people.

When the white colonists landed in the cape, they started driving the khoisan (Who did not have farms or own any land remember) towards the North and enslaving them. At the same time, the black tribes from the North were driving the nomads South and killing them for farmland.

So if you leave out the horrible genocide of the nomadic people's that originally inhabited South Africa and you just look at the white and black races you'll see that the Western Cape, Northern Cape and parts of Eastern Cape were originally white. Kwazulu-Natal/Gauten and the North-eastern part of South Africa is originally black.

I'm not making this up, you can double check this info on the government history pages.

So actually, the whole of South Africa belongs to the "boesmans". But how well are they represented in government? And since they didn't have farms to begin with, can you say that anybody took their land?

The Xhosa are part of the Nguni culture and intermarried with the khoi (bushmen). That is why there is sow much clicks in their language.

[Naks]

It's not like there's not thousands of black people sitting in their multi-million buck homes sipping cocktails... It's not a white thing anymore. Why don't you get pissed off at these people too?

yes, but the ratio of 'rich' whites: rich blacks is so out of kilter it's not even funny.

I am anti-government - as I said before, the main priority of a government is to stay there. Hence why education is such a low priority for the ANC. If they were to give people a decent education, they would be voted out of government!

An ill-educated populace is what they need, and boy, do they have one in SA!

Unfortunately whites are playing right into their hands! If white people were doing more to redress the past, the ANC wouldn't have a leg to stand on and blame apartheid for everything.

[phoneJunky]

And if you read about this remember to read that the Xhosa's and Zulu's migrated here from the north round about the same time that the colonialist came here. Remember not to read just what you want to read.

And we claim to the world to be the cradle of human kind but you come here and have a tit for tat fight who came here first.

If this is the cradle of human kind does that not include the whole human race or are some more equal than others again?

If memory serves me right, the black people migrated year about 200 years before the white people came...

The problem shouldn't be whose land it is but rather that not everyone got to use the land to the same extent, leaving one group of people taking the best of the resources.

[phoneJunky]

yes, but the ratio of 'rich' whites: rich blacks is so out of kilter it's not even funny.

Unfortunately whites are playing right into their hands! If white people were doing more to redress the past, the ANC wouldn't have a leg to stand on and blame apartheid for everything.

Valid points which I also share.

Here is an interresting read if you are able to read afrikaans:

http://www.dieburger.com/Content/Opinie/HoofArtikels/1642/c5564c59f73f42d3be7ac61adccf706e/10-10-2009-01-01/Forum_%E2%80%99n_Geskiedenis_van_ongelykheid

[psichron]

If memory serves me right, the black people migrated year about 200 years before the white people came...

Nope, your memory does not serve you right. The white and black people met somewhere about 400km inland from the Southern tip of South Africa.

[psichron]

yes, but the ratio of 'rich' whites: rich blacks is so out of kilter it's not even funny.


Statistics says the ratio is about 1:1 if you look at the economic elite.

[joelus]

Statistics says the ratio is about 1:1 if you look at the economic elite.

What stats?

[Naks]

Statistics says the ratio is about 1:1 if you look at the economic elite.

sorry, mistyped.

I meant to say rich white:poor black

[phoneJunky]

Accourding to wikipedia, black people were in KZN at around 1000BC.

Were you saying that the came to the cape at the same time?

[phoneJunky]

Statistics says the ratio is about 1:1 if you look at the economic elite.

Actually go to the link I provided above. In the top 20% of our country based on earnings there is 4.3 million black people and 3.8 white people.

I am trying to be unbiased here as I am arguing both ways...

Edit: Sorry about double post, normally people already left post in this thread when I am done with my previous one

[psichron]

sorry, mistyped.

I meant to say rich white:poor black

Better. Yes, there is still a massive disparity.

[psichron]

Were you saying that the came to the cape at the same time?

Nono, I'm saying they met in the middle at the same time :P

[Mila]

[QUOTE=phoneJunky;3243767]If memory serves me right, the black people migrated year about 200 years before the white people came...

QUOTE] But they migrated just like the white people.


Like I said we brag to the world about being the cradle of human kind but we cannot stop blaming each other for stealing!!
This is stupid. We should either rename that place to the cradle of the black gene or accept that we all came from the same forefathers in the end.


Yes white people will pay for their father sins but so will the black ones doing the same the whites did. ( not all of either but some ) And we all can do with an attitude adjustment, and do a bit more. Not just whites black people can be just as xenophobic as whites.
But in the end we live in the cradle of humanity and arguments like you stole from me is BS because nothing belonged to you or me. But That is jus IMO.

[phoneJunky]

Nono, I'm saying they met in the middle at the same time :P

Sorry I argued wrong then

[psichron]

Naks, would you mind posting a couple of practical ways in which you think white South Africans can change their attitudes in order to help make our country a better place for all?

Edit: Naks or anybody.

[phoneJunky]

[QUOTE=phoneJunky;3243767]If memory serves me right, the black people migrated year about 200 years before the white people came...

QUOTE] But they migrated just like the white people.


Like I said we brag to the world about being the cradle of human kind but we cannot stop blaming each other for stealing!!
This is stupid. We should either rename that place to the cradle of the black gene or accept that we all came from the same forefathers in the end.


Yes white people will pay for their father sins but so will the black ones doing the same the whites did. ( not all of either but some ) And we all can do with an attitude adjustment, and do a bit more. Not just whites black people can be just as xenophobic as whites.
But in the end we live in the cradle of humanity and arguments like you stole from me is BS because nothing belonged to you or me. But That is jus IMO.

I never said they didn't migrate and I said before this county belongs to everyone. The only real people who can lay claim to this country as theirs and only theirs is the bushmen and they are now living in numbers of a few thousand if they are lucky

[Naks]

Naks, would you mind posting a couple of practical ways in which you think white South Africans can change their attitudes in order to help make our country a better place for all?


I dunno if you can make ppl change their attitudes. IMHO, you don't want to. You want people to see past their differences and change their attitudes on their own.

I know, I know it's utopial thinking :)


Look, even if you don't change your attitude, at least help in whatever way you can - charity work, donate to causes, help educate the kids of your domestic workers, etc.

[I am Penguin]

Naks, would you mind posting a couple of practical ways in which you think white South Africans can change their attitudes in order to help make our country a better place for all?

Edit: Naks or anybody.

Why exclude black people in this request?

[B@rrels]

[QUOTE=Rendier;3243063](Something that I wrote)

A story of a White African…




It was in that year that D.F. Malan implemented something that altered the course of South Africa forever…


I dont think it was D.F.Malan but H.F.Verwoerd....I stand corrected

[I am Penguin]

[QUOTE=Rendier;3243063](Something that I wrote)

A story of a White African…




It was in that year that D.F. Malan implemented something that altered the course of South Africa forever…


I dont think it was D.F.Malan but H.F.Verwoerd....I stand corrected

Yuu are right. I was a small boy then.

[phoneJunky]

Psichron, it is not just white South Africans that should change their attitude, but everyone. There are 10 million people that live really well and are educated enough to bring a change to the country...

[I am Penguin]

Psichron, it is not just white South Africans that should change their attitude, but everyone. There are 10 million people that live really well and are educated enough to bring a change to the country...

Only ten out of forty! :eek: No wonder!

[Rendier]

JFC, stop being such a victim.
Nobody is blaming you, nobody is punishing you, stop being so frakkin paranoid.

Oh really... funny then how atleast twice a month and all the time on Youtube im being told to **** off because im white and because I don't belong here...


Personally, if waking up in the morning with a beautiful view of table mountain, getting in my car and driving to my reasonably paid job, sipping cocktails on the beach after work before going to late night movies is considered punishment, then punish me more. All I know is my quality of life is better and easier than that of my siblings, both of whom have immigrated.
Get over yourself. There is nothing unbearable about it. I personally have never felt discriminated against and I've lived here my whole life. Who, besides Julius, has accused you of being racist for no reason? Tell me.
Who, in the international community, has labeled you as narrow minded and selfish? Show me.

Many people in day to day life... Think it's because I work in a public environment... if you are happy then great... unfortunately I can't stand being blamed for things i had no control over... but trust me... when, and it will happen, someone accuses you of being a racist and not belonging here, be sure to post your response here.

You want to see who labeled me narrow minded and selfish?

http://www.youtube.com/R3NDI3R

(go read some of the comments there from Black South Africans)



whine whine whine, it's people like you who make me wonder what kind of future this country has. I don't know anyone anywhere who says we over-react when saying 55 murders a day is too much. Show me these people, I don't believe it.

People like me? I fight for this country on a daily basis so please don't you ****ing dare throw this at me...

And our previous president himself said that crime wasn't out of control in this country so there is ONE example of ppl that believe 55 murders a day isn't serious. Our own damn president said it...

[LancelotSA]

If your father committed a crime, could you be held accountable for that crime if you had nothing to do with it?

I’m quite sure your answer would be “no”…

And what if you were still benefiting from the proceeds of your father's crime?

[Rendier]

And what if you were still benefiting from the proceeds of your father's crime?

You really want to generalize that all white people benefited from Apartheid? and secondly... I personally didn't benefit from it as my parents fought against the Apartheid regime... they were seen as terrorists.

[joelus]

Oh really... funny then how atleast twice a month and all the time on Youtube im being told to **** off because im white and because I don't belong here...



Many people in day to day life... Think it's because I work in a public environment... if you are happy then great... unfortunately I can't stand being blamed for things i had no control over... but trust me... when, and it will happen, someone accuses you of being a racist and not belonging here, be sure to post your response here.

You want to see who labeled me narrow minded and selfish?

http://www.youtube.com/R3NDI3R

(go read some of the comments there from Black South Africans)




People like me? I fight for this country on a daily basis so please don't you ****ing dare throw this at me...

And our previous president himself said that crime wasn't out of control in this country so there is ONE example of ppl that believe 55 murders a day isn't serious. Our own damn president said it...

Thanks for your youtube link, I have a clearer picture now.
You see, there is your problem right there.
You think people are calling you racist because you are white when in actual fact they are calling you racist because you are... well... racist!

I'm also white, older than you and I have never ever been called a racist by anyone, so I don't think it has anything to do with being white, it has to do with your attitude. We don't need people fighting for this country, we need people to nurture it, help it grow which requires love and compassion, not blame and anger.

[Jonny Two Shoes]

Speaking from a white persons perspective obviously...

What about the white couple who lived with their daughter in a small wood cabin on a cheap piece of land after retrenchment, some nights the woman and daughter staying with other family while the white father fended off the tsotsi's and literally came under fire many times while he guarded what little he had accumulated to try earn a living and eventually build up and get somewhere and even ended up providing needy black people with jobs on his new ventures many of whom disappointed them...obviously things were stolen in the process and it was back to square 1 a few times (true story btw...I stayed in that cabin a few times visiting them as I'm the woman's son and fathers step son - divorced parents and all with my real father who also had to start over from nothing). Can these white people raise their hands up and say they benefit from Apartheid? Do they really need to waste their time looking at the past and feeling guilty or blaming anyone?

The point is there are so many other issues in life people need to worry about and I get so so so sick of this. I just wish everyone would get the fk over this race issue and move on. There is the solution but no one ever will.

[LancelotSA]

You really want to generalize that all white people benefited from Apartheid? and secondly... I personally didn't benefit from it as my parents fought against the Apartheid regime... they were seen as terrorists.

Well good for them. Luke Watson's father also fought apartheid. He is white. His son is benefiting from his Dad's stance.

My parents too were opposed to apartheid. They were not activists however. I am affected by BEE, and the like, too. I accept that I am white. Whether I feel I benefited or not from apartheid I was on the right side of the colour line. Now I am not.

I was responding to the question you asked in your original post. And you'll note that my response is unlikely to be "no", as assumed by you. And my question is still valid. As a white person you were benefiting.

[Rendier]

Thanks for your youtube link, I have a clearer picture now.
You see, there is your problem right there.
You think people are calling you racist because you are white when in actual fact they are calling you racist because you are... well... racist!


Wow...

Please provide one instance in ANY of my videos where i am Racist. I dare you.

You are one ignorant human being. labeling me a racist because im angry... LOL...

[Rendier]

Well good for them. Luke Watson's father also fought apartheid. He is white. His son is benefiting from his Dad's stance.

My parents too were opposed to apartheid. They were not activists however. I am affected by BEE, and the like, too. I accept that I am white. Whether I feel I benefited or not from apartheid I was on the right side of the colour line. Now I am not.

I was responding to the question you asked in your original post. And you'll note that my response is unlikely to be "no", as assumed by you. And my question is still valid. As a white person you were benefiting.

Using Luke Watson is a bit stupid mate... His dad was involved in Rugby... anyone's son...be it white or black will benefit if their fathers were involved in the higher powers.

[LancelotSA]

Using Luke Watson is a bit stupid mate... His dad was involved in Rugby... anyone's son...be it white or black will benefit if their fathers were involved in the higher powers.

So your parents weren't that active then?

Really if the truth be known what seems to be actually holding you back is your attitude. As a white South African you can still buy property, you can still start your own business, you can still walk on the streets without a passbook..... your ambitions are limited by your mindset.

[Rendier]

So your parents weren't that active then?

Really if the truth be known what seems to be actually holding you back is your attitude. As a white South African you can still buy property, you can still start your own business, you can still walk on the streets without a passbook..... your ambitions are limited by your mindset.

You see... it's actually the opposite...

Your mindset is allowing you to think all is ok.

Why must I be discriminated against in a country that preaches everyone needs to be equal? Why must I "accept" BEE and AA if it DIRECTLY discriminates against me? Our own Acts state that discrimination is "fair" if based on certain conditions... HOW CAN DISCRIMINATION EVER BE FAIR?

I respect your view but then respect mine... every day on myBB we have people arguing over these things so please don't act like im the only one talking about these issues...

How old are you by the way?

Im purely asking because if you are 35 upwards then I really don't see how you can be arguing over here as you were directly involved in Apartheid and can't speak for the youth.

[agentrfr]

You see... it's actually the opposite...

Your mindset is allowing you to think all is ok.

Why must I be discriminated against in a country that preaches everyone needs to be equal? Why must I "accept" BEE and AA if it DIRECTLY discriminates against me? Our own Acts state that discrimination is "fair" if based on certain conditions... HOW CAN DISCRIMINATION EVER BE FAIR?

I respect your view but then respect mine... every day on myBB we have people arguing over these things so please don't act like im the only one talking about these issues...

How old are you by the way?

Im purely asking because if you are 35 upwards then I really don't see how you can be arguing over here as you were directly involved in Apartheid and can't speak for the youth.

He has one heck of a point there...

[Jabberwocky]

So your parents weren't that active then?

Really if the truth be known what seems to be actually holding you back is your attitude. As a white South African you can still buy property, you can still start your own business, you can still walk on the streets without a passbook..... your ambitions are limited by your mindset.

Which means nothing if your own government makes you feel like you ought not to, because you belong in Europe, and Europe generally thinks your`e a racist prick.

[Rendier]

Come on Joelus...

Im still waiting for the proof that im a racist... surely it can't be that hard to find especially after you let it roll off the tongue so easily...

[Morgoth]

Not accountable, rather morally culpable. As you say, you have a moral responsibility to help fix it.

And how many white people do you see doing this?

Case in point - did anyone see the Carte Blanche doccie about the whiteys in Claremont refusing to let the displaced coloured back into "their" upmarket suburb because they fear a drop in the property prices *puke*

bull**** I have no moral responsibility to fix this, sorry but I don't feel sorry ashamed for being an Afrikaner or apartheid, its a system and nothing more, get over it we don't care :)

and to the OP, apartheid is just another word for segregation it started way before 1948

[Morgoth]

Accourding to wikipedia, black people were in KZN at around 1000BC.

Were you saying that the came to the cape at the same time?

so what if they were ? did they pay the khoisan lots of cattle or whatever currency for their land or simple take it? hmm... wikipedia says the san were here 1st.

[Morgoth]

+1. Nice quote too.

I'm always amazed at how so many young whites seem to think they received no benefit from the apartheid system at all.

I am amazed in the ignorance in this post, fact is only a few white elite people ( broederbonders) benefited greatly from apartheid eg. state jobs, 6 month army, directors/ministers before they were 30, the list goes on

The rest got a nice live that they worked for, the system allowed them too, its like saying Doctors in Russia benefited from communism because they were forced into it, are they suppose to lower their standards of living and say: "THE HELL WITH Education and it I am going to retire to a shack and breed like a rabbit, go on strike and practise barbarism because of the system?"...... it sounds stupid.

[Morgoth]

What we know is that the north of South Africa was originally inhabited by Xhosa's and Zulu's, and the south was inhabited by the khoisan/nomadic people.

When the white colonists landed in the cape, they started driving the khoisan (Who did not have farms or own any land remember) towards the North and enslaving them. At the same time, the black tribes from the North were driving the nomads South and killing them for farmland.

So if you leave out the horrible genocide of the nomadic people's that originally inhabited South Africa and you just look at the white and black races you'll see that the Western Cape, Northern Cape and parts of Eastern Cape were originally white. Kwazulu-Natal/Gauten and the North-eastern part of South Africa is originally black.

I'm not making this up, you can double check this info on the government history pages.

So actually, the whole of South Africa belongs to the "boesmans". But how well are they represented in government? And since they didn't have farms to begin with, can you say that anybody took their land?


The Zulu's and Xhosa's didn't exactly take it and not kill any of them >_<

As far as history goes, it says that the black people migrated from the north , mostly to avoid slavery.

[limnos]

Dude, you should be a politician... You've got so much passion for what you believe in!

[Syndyre]

I am amazed in the ignorance in this post, fact is only a few white elite people ( broederbonders) benefited greatly from apartheid eg. state jobs, 6 month army, directors/ministers before they were 30, the list goes on

The rest got a nice live that they worked for, the system allowed them too, its like saying Doctors in Russia benefited from communism because they were forced into it, are they suppose to lower their standards of living and say: "THE HELL WITH Education and it I am going to retire to a shack and breed like a rabbit, go on strike and practise barbarism because of the system?"...... it sounds stupid.

Its generally those connected to the state, as you say the broederbond types etc, and those unskilled whites that benefited from job reservation etc. Professionals could have done well anywhere in the world and many have proven this by emigrating and doing just that.

[Morgoth]

Its generally those connected to the state, as you say the broederbond types etc, and those unskilled whites that benefited from job reservation etc. Professionals could have done well anywhere in the world and many have proven this by emigrating and doing just that.

here is an article that Moelietzi Mbeki (Thabo's brother and biggest critic) wrote about the elites in the country

http://www.vryeafrikaan.co.za/lees.php?%20id=267

the fact is if you want anyone to blame for apartheid, I would without doubt point a finger at the broederbonders, the whole old national party responsible for indoctrinating Afrikaners through the NG Church, responsible for wasting their time in the SA army and all the bull**** they fed them during the apartheid age. They owe us one hell of an apology - before we even get to blacks.

[LancelotSA]

Im purely asking because if you are 35 upwards then I really don't see how you can be arguing over here as you were directly involved in Apartheid and can't speak for the youth.

You are talking more crap the longer this thread continues.... Apartheid was first implemented in 1948, as you were so kind to point out in your original post. South African citizens only have the right to vote from age 18. Apartheid ended in 1994.

My very first voting act, as someone older than 35, was a vote for a referendum to be held on whether negotiations for the end of apartheid should continue! My vote was yes along with 68% of the white voting population. So rather than pointing fingers at those over 35 perhaps you should be thanking them. Unless of course you are the kind that preferred apartheid.

The only people you have a right to point fingers at is those who voted the NP into power in the 1948 elections... and all subsequent elections thereafter. I can tell you that my parents never voted NP. So as much as you accuse me of generalisations perhaps you should take care not to commit the same "crime".

And even then I fear not too many fingers should be pointed as there appear to be a lot of white people who still have the mentality that if given the choice again now, they'd still vote for segregation!

[rebel998]

The only thing the abolishment of apartheid did was create an elite group of superrich blacks. The rest of the masses still suffer in poverty, the only difference is there are a lot more poor whites too now.:D

[Rendier]

You are talking more crap the longer this thread continues.... Apartheid was first implemented in 1948, as you were so kind to point out in your original post. South African citizens only have the right to vote from age 18. Apartheid ended in 1994.

and you are becoming more ignorant...


My very first voting act, as someone older than 35, was a vote for a referendum to be held on whether negotiations for the end of apartheid should continue! My vote was yes along with 68% of the white voting population. So rather than pointing fingers at those over 35 perhaps you should be thanking them. Unless of course you are the kind that preferred apartheid.

That's great and all but see here is where the truth is going to hurt... you voted yes... WELL DONE! So what... that magically makes everything ok? You want to tell me that the youth should take responsibility for benefiting from Apartheid whilst you are sitting comfortably with a job, nice car and a house whilst we, who are being discriminated against because of something YOU DIRECTLY benefited from, must suffer? and on top of that we must thank you??? LOL... We can't get a job because of what YOUR generation did... we can't get equal rights because of what YOUR generation did... and here you are saying we must thank you... WOW. You ever think that the reason the white youth are being labeled racists and need to go overseas to get proper jobs etc is at your generations fault?

Your life is set... you have the house, car etc... the youth WOULD LOVE to get those things too but can't due to how we are being persecuted...

Think before you post...

[rebel998]

Rendier, you are right in saying everyone under a certain age could definitely not be held responsible for the evils thought up by their ancestors.

But unfortunately there will be many idiots who would never tell you that you're having all this k@k simply because you my friend are WHITE.

Because then they would be just as bad as the perpetrators of that evil crime called apartheid. Yet they all know its true.:D

[hj2k_x]

LOL. This is what, your 3rd attempt on this forum now? I thought you had had enough the last time? Have your youtube 'fans' deserted you? I don't get it.

[Rendier]

LOL. This is what, your 3rd attempt on this forum now? I thought you had had enough the last time? Have your youtube 'fans' deserted you? I don't get it.

This has got nothing to do with my youtube channel... but you would have known that if you actually read the first post... 34000 posts... 5 of those prob made sense... NOW COME DERAIL THE THREAD PLZ!

[3G4me]

LOL. This is what, your 3rd attempt on this forum now? I thought you had had enough the last time? Have your youtube 'fans' deserted you? I don't get it.

What happened to "play the ball, not the man"????:sick:

[hj2k_x]

This has got nothing to do with my youtube channel... but you would have known that if you actually read the first post... 34000 posts... 5 of those prob made sense... NOW COME DERAIL THE THREAD PLZ!

Ooh, attack my post count. Hit me where it hurts :rolleyes:

Sorry, mate. I thought you would have remembered my hatred for your last appearance on here. But apparently I was not memorable at all. Or, it was just lost in the malaise of general antipathy pointed in your direction.

I shall leave you in peace. Good luck with your crusade or whatever it is. :o

[LancelotSA]

That's great and all but see here is where the truth is going to hurt... you voted yes... WELL DONE! So what... that magically makes everything ok?

Well, well, well isn't this comment from you just so interesting!! You are the one questioning why we have BEE and AA and yet here you seem to be stating yourself that you can't just vote yes and magically make the effects of apartheid go away!!


You want to tell me that the youth should take responsibility for benefiting from Apartheid whilst you are sitting comfortably with a job, nice car and a house whilst we, who are being discriminated against because of something YOU DIRECTLY benefited from, must suffer? and on top of that we must thank you??? LOL... We can't get a job because of what YOUR generation did... we can't get equal rights because of what YOUR generation did... and here you are saying we must thank you... WOW. You ever think that the reason the white youth are being labeled racists and need to go overseas to get proper jobs etc is at your generations fault?

Your life is set... you have the house, car etc... the youth WOULD LOVE to get those things too but can't due to how we are being persecuted...

Think before you post...

I really should just leave this with, you are a snotty little kid that needs a good klap.

I think we have the true reason why white youth are fleeing overseas. Some of them are just fsking spoilt little brats and as soon as they get out of the shelter of mommy and daddy's privileged little fort (because bear in mind your parents are a generation before me even) they realise that the big wide world is not all cushy and easy.

[LancelotSA]

LOL. This is what, your 3rd attempt on this forum now? I thought you had had enough the last time? Have your youtube 'fans' deserted you? I don't get it.

...and unfortunately the internet gives people like this a voice and perpetuates the world view that all white South Africans are racists and hate filled.

[hj2k_x]

...and unfortunately the internet gives people like this a voice and perpetuates the world view that all white South Africans are racists and hate filled.

Which is why he will get shut down on here, but not on youtube I spose.

Anyway, I said I'd stop 'derailing' this awesome thread, so I will. ;)

[rebel998]

Lancelot I don't think you are quite correct with that statement.

A lot of white kids leave the country in search of better opportunities. Opportunities they are not going to get here.

AA, BEE whatever else you can think off is discrimination, nothing else. Two wrongs don't make a right.:D

[LancelotSA]

Ooooh wait!! I just realised... is this the DJ dude! Damn, my first impressions are getting confirmed every time he posts!!

[LancelotSA]

AA, BEE whatever else you can think off is discrimination, nothing else. Two wrongs don't make a right.:D

To quote Rendier. So we create a democracy and then "so what... that magically makes everything ok?"

[rebel998]

Look, getting rid of segregation was one of the best things for SA. Getting the anc afterwards was the worst.:D

[psichron]

Look, getting rid of segregation was one of the best things for SA. Getting the anc afterwards was the worst.:D

The British forced everybody to be British.
The Apartheid government forced everybody apart.
The ANC government is forcing people together.

Stop fkn forcing us to do anything!

[Rendier]

Well, well, well isn't this comment from you just so interesting!! You are the one questioning why we have BEE and AA and yet here you seem to be stating yourself that you can't just vote yes and magically make the effects of apartheid go away!!

No... Im questioning why the youth of this country have to face BEE/AA and not you... why aren't your job taken from you... you being a direct beneficiary of Apartheid... why the young white South African that had nothing to do with it? Why do we have to suffer yet you still enjoy all the things you scored out of Apartheid??? Notice that thread is aimed at the white YOUTH... not white MIDDLE AGE dude that scored out of Apartheid.


I really should just leave this with, you are a snotty little kid that needs a good klap.

Wow... Threatening me are we... You call me snotty yet stick your damn nose into everything that everyone writes on this forum... the best part is that you have an opinion on EVERYTHING on here... and even more amazing is that apparently it's an EXPERT opinion... You are a know it all and trust me... that is far worse than being snotty. Im 26 years old... don't speak to me like im a child. This is not your house and I can talk to you in which ever way I see fit.


I think we have the true reason why white youth are fleeing overseas. Some of them are just fsking spoilt little brats and as soon as they get out of the shelter of mommy and daddy's privileged little fort (because bear in mind your parents are a generation before me even) they realise that the big wide world is not all cushy and easy.

Listen just switch your damn computer off. You know absolutely NOTHING about the youth of this country so don't you dare say why it is that they leave... Saying this nonsense just illustrates how ignorant you really are... Screw the fact that we can't get jobs etc... it's because we are spoilt... LOL WOWOW.

[Rendier]

Ooooh wait!! I just realised... is this the DJ dude! Damn, my first impressions are getting confirmed every time he posts!!

Your impression of me means nothing to me because my impression of you are far worse.

and look... here you are derailing another thread... Trol much?

[SlinkyMike]

You guys need to remember that squabbling like this is distracting you from the work at hand.

There is a lot to be done.*

Doctors and teachers and engineers to train. Attitudes to change and yes: old wrongs to set right, on both sides.*

You need to keep in focus the fact that the old guard, the people who on the one side indoctrinate you and incite you to hate and on the other side you blame (and rightly so) for the current circsumstances... Will soon be gone.

Soon it will be our world to run and the next generation will hold us answerable to the same types of questions and place us under the same kind of scrutiny that you are indulging in here.

We need to learn from history, not repeat it.

If you are against AA/BEE make your point but do so in a way that is not confrontational-try to get the person standing opposite you to understand what you are saying and why.

If you feel your people have been wronged throughout history- help the person opposite you to see why you feel that way. Explain the repercussions of that injustice in a way that everyone can connect with, show them how it affects all of us.

Be respectful.

We are going to need each other in the future. I can assure you that as long as we are divided we are weak; lost and easy to control.

We need to show the past generations that there is another way.*
They won't listen to us, that much is obvious.

We have science; technology and the entire history of the world to learn from.*
Let's show that we can.
Let's show that we have.

Let's show them how a futuristic, evolved, enlightened human race will function.

After all: do we not most effectively destroy our enemies by befriending them?*

[rebel998]

Very well said slinky.

Attitudes need to be changed. How though???

Forcing people into things is NOT the way forward.:D

[LancelotSA]

No... Im questioning why the youth of this country have to face BEE/AA and not you...

So when a job is being applied for they stipulate that it is a "BEE position..... unless you are white and over the age of 35 in which case you can apply"?!?! Hmm, I never knew that. Thanks for that! :rolleyes:


why aren't your job taken from you... you being a direct beneficiary of Apartheid... why the young white South African that had nothing to do with it? Why do we have to suffer yet you still enjoy all the things you scored out of Apartheid??? Notice that thread is aimed at the white YOUTH... not white MIDDLE AGE dude that scored out of Apartheid.

Glad to see you are subscribing to the Julius Malema school of thought and categorizing yourself as a youth at age 26! I also think I should perhaps point out to you that as a 26 year old you benefited from apartheid for at least the first 10 years of your life. Thereafter you will find that you still benefited as your parent's house was not taken from you in 1994 and the jobs they had were not taken away. This put you in a lot more privileged position than our black countrymen at the time! As we stated before a switch was not flipped and things changed over night.

I actually have more right to bitch than you as I now have two children that I have brought into this world who I could view as being discriminated against if I was that way inclined. They had not one tiny little bit to do with apartheid.

So as you so kindly pointed out to me earlier... think before you post!


Wow... Threatening me are we... You call me snotty yet stick your damn nose into everything that everyone writes on this forum... the best part is that you have an opinion on EVERYTHING on here... and even more amazing is that apparently it's an EXPERT opinion... You are a know it all and trust me... that is far worse than being snotty. Im 26 years old... don't speak to me like im a child. This is not your house and I can talk to you in which ever way I see fit.

Ha ha ha if you regard that as a threat then you are more spoilt than I thought.

Unfortunately for you when posting something on a public forum you should really expect others to respond. When they do it is just a little silly to then accuse them of sticking their noses in! :rolleyes: You will also find that if a person posts a response then they OBVIOUSLY have an opinion or why else would they bother posting? :rolleyes: Whether you feel my opinion is an "expert opinion" is a conclusion you draw. I am totally oblivious to ever posting and stating that I am an expert in the field! :rolleyes:


Im 26 years old... don't speak to me like im a child. This is not your house and I can talk to you in which ever way I see fit.

Read those two sentences of yours again! And throw in a ditto! :rolleyes:


Listen just switch your damn computer off. You know absolutely NOTHING about the youth of this country so don't you dare say why it is that they leave... Saying this nonsense just illustrates how ignorant you really are... Screw the fact that we can't get jobs etc... it's because we are spoilt... LOL WOWOW.

Unfortunately for you if you continue spewing forth crap on this forum I will continue responding. So if you really want me to shut up then perhaps do the same yourself. Or feel free to take your rantings to another forum. You appear to have an issue with people posting on here anyway as your response to a member earlier was your second insult aimed at a person's post count... and yet you seem to hold your Youtube views in such high regard! :rolleyes:




Your impression of me means nothing to me because my impression of you are far worse.

and look... here you are derailing another thread... Trol much?

Ha ha ha as far as I can tell I am discussing the topic you raised! Remind me again how this is trolling?

You do realise the definition of trolling is not "anyone whose opinion differs from yours" :rolleyes:

[rebel998]

Oh lawd please, can we keep juliass out of this?:D

[Morgoth]

and you are becoming more ignorant...



That's great and all but see here is where the truth is going to hurt... you voted yes... WELL DONE! So what... that magically makes everything ok? You want to tell me that the youth should take responsibility for benefiting from Apartheid whilst you are sitting comfortably with a job, nice car and a house whilst we, who are being discriminated against because of something YOU DIRECTLY benefited from, must suffer? and on top of that we must thank you??? LOL... We can't get a job because of what YOUR generation did... we can't get equal rights because of what YOUR generation did... and here you are saying we must thank you... WOW. You ever think that the reason the white youth are being labeled racists and need to go overseas to get proper jobs etc is at your generations fault?

Your life is set... you have the house, car etc... the youth WOULD LOVE to get those things too but can't due to how we are being persecuted...

Think before you post...

he sat with a job because he worked his ass off to be there, so what about the politics? back in 1948 the African had a choice to vote between the united party, they supported the British - would you vote someone into power who supports those responsible for the boer war and 200 year of Afrikaner frustration? I think not.....

its stupid even pointing fingers at them, if you want something in life - work for it, yes it was harder during the good old days for blacks but tell me how did some of them manage to be educated? They worked?

tell me who is carring this country at the moment? the MK veterans (not like they were anything more then a bunch of uncivilized baboons)? LOL? the idiots in power at the moment? nope sorry , those who according to you enforced apartheid? hmm I wonder, but hey they 'took ' what is yours through hard work - what a joke, and now they target them with bee and wonder why all the educated leave this place? so much for your double standards of anti apartheid. In the old regime 3 things mattered - else you won't fit into society. Volk, Kerk en Vaderland.

Tell me did Angola have apartheid?, did the DRC have apartheid? Did Nigeria have it? I doubt it, which do you prefer to live in? those countries or South Africa? Face the fact : Sa wouldn't be anything without the white Afrikaners that according to you are 'responsible' for apartheid.

you came here with the expectation that everyone will agree with you - guess what, we don't

[rebel998]

I agree.

Whites added a lot of value to the land. And I suspect the fact that they held out so long made the difference between where we are now and where a country like Zim is. Although it looks like the anc is sliding us that way slowly.:D

[Rendier]

So when a job is being applied for they stipulate that it is a "BEE position..... unless you are white and over the age of 35 in which case you can apply"?!?! Hmm, I never knew that. Thanks for that! :rolleyes:

Do you act stupid on purpose... or are you really this thick? Did they stipulate back in the day when you applied for your first job that BEE is there? No... why? Because you were benefiting from Apartheid. When we apply for a job now do we get AA thrown in our faces? Yes. So you have a job... we don't... and unless we are extremely lucky we don't get a good job. But you already knew that didn't you?



Glad to see you are subscribing to the Julius Malema school of thought and categorizing yourself as a youth at age 26! I also think I should perhaps point out to you that as a 26 year old you benefited from apartheid for at least the first 10 years of your life. Thereafter you will find that you still benefited as your parent's house was not taken from you in 1994 and the jobs they had were not taken away. This put you in a lot more privileged position than our black countrymen at the time! As we stated before a switch was not flipped and things changed over night.

BEE/AA has been here since the late 1990's... I was a youth then and was discriminated against then and now. When you were 18... were you discriminated against?

I started school with other black kids being in my class so we started on equal playing fields when it got down to education... My parents paid, the black kids parents didn't. Equal playing fields bud.


I actually have more right to bitch than you as I now have two children that I have brought into this world who I could view as being discriminated against if I was that way inclined. They had not one tiny little bit to do with apartheid.

You have more right to bitch? Ok... if you say so :rolleyes:


Ha ha ha if you regard that as a threat then you are more spoilt than I thought.

Oh yes because threatening is only serious when it involves a death threat right? and watch your words... I worked 2 jobs to pay for my own way through varsity to get my Masters.


Unfortunately for you when posting something on a public forum you should really expect others to respond. When they do it is just a little silly to then accuse them of sticking their noses in! :rolleyes: You will also find that if a person posts a response then they OBVIOUSLY have an opinion or why else would they bother posting? :rolleyes: Whether you feel my opinion is an "expert opinion" is a conclusion you draw. I am totally oblivious to ever posting and stating that I am an expert in the field! :rolleyes:

I expect ppl to respond and even to disagree... but when they come with this attitude of "i know more than you" attitude... like you are doing... then im sorry but I can't take you serious.


Unfortunately for you if you continue spewing forth crap on this forum I will continue responding. So if you really want me to shut up then perhaps do the same yourself. Or feel free to take your rantings to another forum. You appear to have an issue with people posting on here anyway as your response to a member earlier was your second insult aimed at a person's post count... and yet you seem to hold your Youtube views in such high regard! :rolleyes:

Please do elaborate on this crap im spewing... if me talking about the Youth is crap to you then I suggest you wake up and realise that your generation isn't the only one with problems. You seem to have a issue with me... I don't have issue with ppl posting here... not at all... but if they constantly give their opinion, after we heard it the first time, then it becomes a bit annoying.

My Youtube vids have gathered more than 2.7 million views with all my vids receiving 5/5 stars... I really really really don't care what you have to say about them... you would rather sit on your ass and bitch than actually get up and do something to improve this country. Instead you would actually rather fight with me... who honestly want equal rights for ALL ppl of this country.

[Rendier]

he sat with a job because he worked his ass off to be there, so what about the politics? back in 1948 the African had a choice to vote between the united party, they supported the British - would you vote someone into power who supports those responsible for the boer war and 200 year of Afrikaner frustration? I think not.....

its stupid even pointing fingers at them, if you want something in life - work for it, yes it was harder during the good old days for blacks but tell me how did some of them manage to be educated? They worked?

tell me who is carring this country at the moment? the MK veterans (not like they were anything more then a bunch of uncivilized baboons)? LOL? the idiots in power at the moment? nope sorry , those who according to you enforced apartheid? hmm I wonder, but hey they 'took ' what is yours through hard work - what a joke, and now they target them with bee and wonder why all the educated leave this place? so much for your double standards of anti apartheid. In the old regime 3 things mattered - else you won't fit into society. Volk, Kerk en Vaderland.

Tell me did Angola have apartheid?, did the DRC have apartheid? Did Nigeria have it? I doubt it, which do you prefer to live in? those countries or South Africa? Face the fact : Sa wouldn't be anything without the white Afrikaners that according to you are 'responsible' for apartheid.

you came here with the expectation that everyone will agree with you - guess what, we don't

Please read all the posts before you comment again. I was using his logic against him... IF anyone should be blamed for Apartheid it shouldn't be the youth. That is what I was getting at... he was basically saying that we should suck it up and take it like a man even though we didn't cause it. He also said that we benefited from it...yet he lived in the time of Apartheid... as if he didn't benefit more than us... and now he is saying we should take it whilst he has all the things he need to live is life happily whilst we can't get it because of the previous generations...

[phenom]

Mandela should have had a more accurate form of justice instead of simple forgveness on 'behalf of everyone else'. this is where all the poison leaks from. yes viva Mandela, he truely set this country on it's rails with the new constitution, but really the reason he is respected is not properly assessed, while the reason why he should be respected is ignored too.

Mandela may have wanted to spare embarrassment at some of his peoples own wrongs, or simply throw everyone of his colour into the wealthy land. im not sure, i havent read deep into the history of Madeba. but we needed a nurenburg rally, for all, and this we did not get.

people take everything other people say out of context, like wild pigs(no offense to anyone here, or so i hope), so please is all i can say don't take what i've said out of context.

im speaking in mixed paragraphs here. and bantu education? if a person acc to the coarse therom is a citiszen and owns land and pays taxes even if it's only vat, they should be entitilyed to the full education standard f a nation, did this happen? ou could always leave the nation at your will, they can't and why is this so?

[phenom]

Reindeer, you have advantaged from apartheid, and this is why you are not qualified for BEE. If your parents were attacked and did not even support the system, this is unfortunate and justice should have or should be served here too.

but is it a scale?

in reality there is no such thing as 'black' or 'white', there are only individuals with their own characters.

Altho i believe in justice, i don't really like the thought of playing a blame game on a colour

[rebel998]

there is no such thing as 'black' or 'white'

Bull man. We should accept that we are different and learn to respect each other in that context.:D

[Pitbull]

Fk it.

The way things turned out I wish more people voted KP and not NP :mad:

[agentrfr]

Reindeer, you have advantaged from apartheid, and this is why you are not qualified for BEE. If your parents were attacked and did not even support the system, this is unfortunate and justice should have or should be served here too.

but is it a scale?

in reality there is no such thing as 'black' or 'white', there are only individuals with their own characters.

Altho i believe in justice, i don't really like the thought of playing a blame game on a colour

Can you explain to me how he was advantaged? As far as I can tell he went to a public school, and had 2 jobs to pay his way through college. The absolute ignorance in saying "you have" is just retarded. Look at his history and tell me how.

I've stopped trying to get a job. Im working for myself, with no employees to worry about *ahem*, and it difficult, but it works great. Now fortunently my parents came from Germany, so we have money to push me the rest of the way through university. I had absolutely nothing to do with apartheid, and yet being "whitish", can't even get a job.

w/e

[agentrfr]

Bull man. We should accept that we are different and learn to respect each other in that context.:D

+1

[SlinkyMike]

Very well said slinky.

Attitudes need to be changed. How though???

Forcing people into things is NOT the way forward.:D

I believe the answer to that question is hidden in the rest of your post :)

You cannot change attitudes by telling people to change, you can't do it by complaining that they have the 'wrong' attitude.

The way to do it is to change the way we treat one another. Change the way we relate to each others specific circumstances.

When we can learn to see the value of the people who surround us, those similar to us and those from whom we differ - that is when we will realise out true, unified strength.

Fighting amongst ourselves is foolish. Past generations understood this because they had massive causes to fight for... unified goals.

Think of Vietnam; apartheid; the liberation movement in the USA; feminism.

The people had a common enemy and thus they gathered around one flagpole bearing many flags.

The forces we struggle against today are far more insidious. They claim to be protecting; liberating or empowering us but they do the opposite.

The world is several orders of magnitude more complex, the issues are so convoluted (and getting more so: nuclear war; stem cell research... etc.) that we cannot afford not to stand by one another.

As the human race progresses to ever more complete levels of mastery of this planet and indeed the galaxy, it is up to us to build the world we want to live in - together.

[I am Penguin]

I believe the answer to that question is hidden in the rest of your post :)

You cannot change attitudes by telling people to change, you can't do it by complaining that they have the 'wrong' attitude.

The way to do it is to change the way we treat one another. Change the way we relate to each others specific circumstances.

When we can learn to see the value of the people who surround us, those similar to us and those from whom we differ - that is when we will realise out true, unified strength.

Fighting amongst ourselves is foolish. Past generations understood this because they had massive causes to fight for... unified goals.

Think of Vietnam; apartheid; the liberation movement in the USA; feminism.

The people had a common enemy and thus they gathered around one flagpole bearing many flags.

The forces we struggle against today are far more insidious. They claim to be protecting; liberating or empowering us but they do the opposite.

The world is several orders of magnitude more complex, the issues are so convoluted (and getting more so: nuclear war; stem cell research... etc.) that we cannot afford not to stand by one another.

As the human race progresses to ever more complete levels of mastery of this planet and indeed the galaxy, it is up to us to build the world we want to live in - together.

Amen.

[agentrfr]

I vote we make Earth into a federation and invade the alien planets for fun. We have guns, they have lazors. I mean seriously? A BIG FREIKING GUN >>>>>>>>>>> pewpewlazor.

That's my idea...

[scotty777]

Do any other young whites here feel victimised as much as Rendier?

Simply, yes...

I'm an upper middle class White South African guy (18), my dad built up a company from a little money he saved, and some be borrowed. He's ended up earning a very decent living, no ill gotten spoils, no nasty history and no oppression.

So, the benefits I have from his wealth, well, those are as legitimate as you can get... Like opening a Fruit and Veg shop (unless, because it's white owned, we stole the land from blacks, and we throw them into slavery?)

As a matric pupil, I'm stressing the shyte out :(. Because I'm white, I'm already put on the back foot with university. Unlike my dad, in todays world, university is key, and I wouldn't last very long in south africa with out a degree...

If I do get into university, and I do finish my course, get the degree I've wanted since I was 7, and I apply to go to work, I get short changed again! Now, because of my RACE I have to suffer again, I get a crappier job, I have to suffer, while less qualified Thabo sales through like, accomplishing absolutely nothing while working, and the country collapses because me, and the other Engineers who have wanted to be engineers for most of our lives, who are hard working etc, have move to Canada, USA, Australia, China etc.

I mean, after living in South Africa all my life, I've gotten used to the occasional poll up my arse, but being forced to be paid less, hated more and just been show where the nearest plane is out of SA, well, that can make anyone just run. Instead of keeping skills in SA, they chasing them out, Teachers(who without, a country will collapse), Doctors, Scientists, Lawyers (Even I know lawyers that are fed up); engineers, etc.

[phoneJunky]

Well said Slinky,

@Morgoth, Phronesis and I had merely had debate, we never said that this is someone's land and the point you quoted was us trying to sort out the technical details of our debate.

Rendier and Lancelot, remember to play the ball and not the man. Let us just keep it factual.

Redier, I am sure you worked hard to get your degrees, so did I. I also had to work two jobs (same franchise though, same boss, actually three as I worked for the varsity too) and eventually got two bursaries, one for undergrad and one for post grad. My white friends got the same bursaries. I know I am in an industry that doesn't get affected by all the aa etc much, but someone on this forum placed a study from UCT where they showed that white people out of varsity actually get a job faster than black people out of varsity (there are various reasons such as black people not studying what is in demand etc), but still if you are well qualified, you should still get a job quite easily.

Now on the benefiting from the past issue. When you say public school, I assume you mean previous model C. I also went to a previous model C school but my parents still had to pay as did all the other coloured, black and indian people. You should remember, that the people who went to the previous model C school were all "rich" - parents were teachers or nurses etc. Should these people get preference after varsity - I think not, but there are other people who couldn't go too previous model C schools and I think there is where the focus should be, but that is just my opinion. Companies get their "BEE status" by showing how much they help the community type of thing.

We find ourselves in a very difficult situation and I feel for both sides of this argument. Is BEE the answer, I think not. Is leaving everything and letting nature take its course, I think thats not the answer either.

So what should be done?

[phoneJunky]

Well said Slinky,

@Morgoth, Phronesis and I had merely had debate, we never said that this is someone's land and the point you quoted was us trying to sort out the technical details of our debate.

Rendier and Lancelot, remember to play the ball and not the man. Let us just keep it factual.

Rendier, I am sure you worked hard to get your degrees, so did I. I also had to work two jobs (same franchise though, same boss, actually three as I worked for the varsity too) and eventually got two bursaries, one for undergrad and one for post grad. My white friends got the same bursaries. I know I am in an industry that doesn't get affected by all the aa etc much, but someone on this forum placed a study from UCT where they showed that white people out of varsity actually get a job faster than black people out of varsity (there are various reasons such as black people not studying what is in demand etc), but still if you are well qualified, you should still get a job quite easily.

Now on the benefiting from the past issue. When you say public school, I assume you mean previous model C. I also went to a previous model C school but my parents still had to pay as did all the other coloured, black and indian people. You should remember, that the people who went to the previous model C school were all "rich" - parents were teachers or nurses etc. Should these people get preference after varsity - I think not, but there are other people who couldn't go too previous model C schools and I think there is where the focus should be, but that is just my opinion. Companies get their "BEE status" by showing how much they help the community type of thing.

We find ourselves in a very difficult situation and I feel for both sides of this argument. Is BEE the answer, I think not. Is leaving everything and letting nature take its course, I think thats not the answer either.

So what should be done?

[Claymore]

I'm an upper middle class White South African guy (18), my dad built up a company from a little money he saved, and some be borrowed. He's ended up earning a very decent living, no ill gotten spoils, no nasty history and no oppression.

Was your father educated in South Africa, in a well-staffed white school? Did he benefit from legislation prohibiting blacks from owning companies? Did he get the bulk of government tax spending for his living environment?

The issue is far wider than you think.


If I do get into university, and I do finish my course, get the degree I've wanted since I was 7, and I apply to go to work, I get short changed again! Now, because of my RACE I have to suffer again, I get a crappier job, I have to suffer, while less qualified Thabo sales through like, accomplishing absolutely nothing while working, and the country collapses because me, and the other Engineers who have wanted to be engineers for most of our lives, who are hard working etc, have move to Canada, USA, Australia, China etc.

If you get an engineering degree, you will not lack for work; SA, like many other countries, has a desperate shortage of engineers and scientists.

[cerebus]

I can't tell you how sick I am of reading whining long-winded apocalyptic blogs by white South Africans about how abused they are. Since I arrived in this country I've never had the sense that I was disadvantaged for being either white or male. Just get over it already.

[phoneJunky]

Well, I am an engineer and everyone of my friends bar one coloured guy got a job with relative ease

edit: going to try and delete the double post

[Rendier]

I can't tell you how sick I am of reading whining long-winded apocalyptic blogs by white South Africans about how abused they are. Since I arrived in this country I've never had the sense that I was disadvantaged for being either white or male. Just get over it already.

I can't tell you how sick I am of people saying that if it didn't happen to them then it doesn't exist... WELL DONE... so what now? Because it hasn't happened to you means that all the other cases are non existent? Our own Acts say that discrimination is fair and that AA/BEE should be implemented... you want to tell me that this isn't real?

You prob got offered a job in South Africa whilst you were overseas... now lose that job and apply for another one and see how far you get.

And to dig even further... you already have work experience... so what about the youth? We can't get jobs to get experience and yet we need experience to get a proper job whilst at the same time fighting against AA.

Open your eyes.

[Joy-Energiser]

Firstly I would just like to say that the OP is a little melodramatic and I as a white person have not experienced any of the persecution or prejudice that he is describing..
Secondly...



AA/BEE is an attempt to rebalance the imbalances in our society created by apartheid. It is not racist and is not punishment.



AA/BEE is the epitome and embodiment of racism.
Seems you don't even know what the definition of racism is, let me enlighten you.

racism - discrimination or prejudice based on race
You see, giving a a job or position to someone based upon their race is the purist form of racism that can possibly exist.

[psichron]

Racist does not just mean "white people hating on black people".

AA and BEE discriminates based on race and is most definitely racist.

[Naks]

AA/BEE is the epitome and embodiment of racism.
Seems you don't even know what the definition of racism is, let me enlighten you.

racism - discrimination or prejudice based on race
You see, giving a a job or position to someone based upon their race is the purist form of racism that can possibly exist.



AA/BEE are there to redress the inequalities brought about by the policies of apartheid.

Since apartheid was based on racist policies, you have to base AA/BEE on race to get there.

If you need to blame someone, blame your forefathers.

[psichron]

Since apartheid was based on racist policies, you have to base AA/BEE on race to get there.


So is racism then always a bad thing? Maybe it's not always so bad if it's used for good?

[Morgoth]

AA/BEE are there to redress the inequalities brought about by the policies of apartheid.

Since apartheid was based on racist policies, you have to base AA/BEE on race to get there.

If you need to blame someone, blame your forefathers.

o really, guess what BEE also also based on racist policies, two wrongs make a right?....

if you need to blame someone for apartheid then blame your forefathers for being barbaric stupid and too underdeveloped for a civilized world. Blame them for being to incompetent, uneducated and corrupt to resist the colonialism, blame them for being stuck in the stone age.

[psichron]

The above post is an example of bad racism ^

[Morgoth]

The above post is an example of bad racism ^

and the one I quoted probably isn't ?, I guess that is apartheid's fault

[Naks]

So is racism then always a bad thing? Maybe it's not always so bad if it's used for good?

Racism is always a bad thing.

If you look at AA/BEE on their own then you are omitting the context within which these policies were required in the first place, i.e., gross socio-economic injustices towards non-whites during apartheid.

[psichron]

Racism is always a bad thing.


If you say "racism is always a bad thing" then you are saying BEE and AA is bad.

Maybe we should just call BEE and AA "progressive racism" ?

[Joy-Energiser]

AA/BEE are there to redress the inequalities brought about by the policies of apartheid.

Since apartheid was based on racist policies, you have to base AA/BEE on race to get there.

If you need to blame someone, blame your forefathers.

Yes 2 wrongs make a right don't they ?
You can go and be all self righteous and indignant about our "Fore Fathers" as much as you like, but the current policy is breeding a generation of freeloaders who believe they have a right to privileges without the hard work that normally goes with it.Which can only spell disaster for the Economy and follow suite to many of the failed African countries that currently plague the continent, that cannot even FEED THEMSELVES.

Is that the type of attitude you want this new South Africa to have?

[Morgoth]

Racism is always a bad thing.

If you look at AA/BEE on their own then you are omitting the context within which these policies were required in the first place, i.e., gross socio-economic injustices towards non-whites during apartheid.

guess what those policies were stupid, failed their purpose and only empowered a few elites while everything they were implemented on fell apartheid. Lets be honest those policies are there so that the ANC can get a few more votes - people who always want something because they 'deserved ' it . - yeah right

[orin76]

AA/BEE are there to redress the inequalities brought about by the policies of apartheid.

Since apartheid was based on racist policies, you have to base AA/BEE on race to get there.

If you need to blame someone, blame your forefathers.

This is the kind of rubbish one would expect from the likes of Julius Malema. So much for reconciliation.

[Morgoth]

Tell me, if blasphemy is nothing more then freedom of expression then why isn't racism too?

[cerebus]

I can't tell you how sick I am of people saying that if it didn't happen to them then it doesn't exist... WELL DONE... so what now? Because it hasn't happened to you means that all the other cases are non existent? Our own Acts say that discrimination is fair and that AA/BEE should be implemented... you want to tell me that this isn't real?

You prob got offered a job in South Africa whilst you were overseas... now lose that job and apply for another one and see how far you get.

And to dig even further... you already have work experience... so what about the youth? We can't get jobs to get experience and yet we need experience to get a proper job whilst at the same time fighting against AA.

Open your eyes.




Lol how's about.. I arrived in the country with zero job experience and nothing arranged beforehand. How's about not making assumptions. i'm not saying it doesn't exist, i'm certain it does. i'm just tired of listening to the amount of whining that goes on. http://storytimebooks.co.nz/wp-content/2007/04/its%20so%20unfair.jpg

[psichron]

Tell me, if blasphemy is nothing more then freedom of expression then why isn't racism too?

Tell me, do you realize you're not making any sense?

[Naks]

Yes 2 wrongs make a right don't they?


Indeed, not.

AA/BEE was not (or rather should not) be a permanent policy.

As for the failed African democracies, there are a whole host of reasons for these, including the World Bank policies, multinationals, western govenment interferenceetc. If you want a good example, read some books on neo-colonialism in Africa.

In any case, if BEE/AA are wrong, how do you propose to right the wrong that was done in your name?

[psichron]

I'm actually pro-BEE/AA, but there is no way you can sugarcoat it to say that it's not a racist policy. So I think there are cases where racism is not a bad thing.

[Morgoth]

Indeed, not.

AA/BEE was not (or rather should not) be a permanent policy.

As for the failed African democracies, there are a whole host of reasons for these, including the World Bank policies, multinationals, western govenment interferenceetc. If you want a good example, read some books on neo-colonialism in Africa.

In any case, if BEE/AA are wrong, how do you propose to right the wrong that was done in your name?

education and elevating people to middle- class instead of replacing idiots and empowering morons?

[phoneJunky]

Firstly I would just like to say that the OP is a little melodramatic and I as a white person have not experienced any of the persecution or prejudice that he is describing..
Secondly...


AA/BEE is the epitome and embodiment of racism.
Seems you don't even know what the definition of racism is, let me enlighten you.

racism - discrimination or prejudice based on race
You see, giving a a job or position to someone based upon their race is the purist form of racism that can possibly exist.

Well actually, the definition of racism is when a certain person think that people of his race is superior to people of another race. Discrimination based on race is discrimination based on race.

BEE is discrimination based on race

Thinking a one type of person is better than another type of person just by judging them on their race is racism

Saying something like "you can take the person out of the bush, but you can not take the bush out of the person" implying on race is implied racism

BEE is not fair in my opinion, but it is not racism.

[Mila]

Tell me, if blasphemy is nothing more then freedom of expression then why isn't racism too?

That is well said.

[psichron]

BEE is not fair in my opinion, but it is not racism.

No, it is. The official definition of racism is "discrimination based on race". When you say somebody of a certain race is better, then you are discriminating so that is also racist. I think many people fail to understand this, go look it up.

[Naks]

So much for reconciliation.


the fact that most white people are still enjoying the benefits of apartheid to this day, and most of them living comfortably in their middle-class suburbs?

Remember my friend, that after 1994, as the oppressing minority you could have been slaughtered and probably no one from the international community would have lifted a finger to prevent it.

Despite what you and your ancestors did to them, most ordinary black people recognise your right to be here and let you do so.

if that's not reconciliation, I don't know what is.

Btw, let's not forget that reconciliation has benefited whites more than non-whites.

[Joy-Energiser]

In any case, if BEE/AA are wrong, how do you propose to right the wrong that was done in your name?

The only solution is to funnel all the resources the government is currently squandering into an Ironclad education system from the primary school level right up to tertiary/university level providing absolute quality and equal education for everyone.

The process is long and hard, but it must be addressed from the root of the problem.
Quick fix solutions like BEE/AA which affects the top level will only lead to this country's downfall.

The number of failed BEE enterprises and the shocking success rate of land reform(only 30% of land reformed into black hands now is actually productive and profitable) is a testament to this.

[Morgoth]

the fact that most white people are still enjoying the benefits of apartheid to this day, and most of them living comfortably in their middle-class suburbs?

Remember my friend, that after 1994, as the oppressing minority you could have been slaughtered and probably no one from the international community would have lifted a finger to prevent it.

Despite what you and your ancestors did to them, most ordinary black people recognise your right to be here and let you do so.

if that's not reconciliation, I don't know what is.

Btw, let's not forget that reconciliation has benefited whites more than non-whites.

Slaughtering them after 1994? ROFL? ever heard of the UN's anti genocide policy and the old South African Military? if they lift a finger the ANC probably would be put back where they belong,

I don't have any benefits from apartheid, I received an acceptable living standard ( that is called a government giving what its voters expects of them)

[psichron]

the fact that most white people are still enjoying the benefits of apartheid to this day, and most of them living comfortably in their middle-class suburbs?

It's not just apartheid that put whites in the situation. You have to look at the situation in ZA before Apartheid, before the 1950's. Whites aren't just rich because of apartheid, they are where they are because of all the generations before them. Whites were living comfortably in their middle-class suburbs before apartheid, why should they not be able to do so now?

[Naks]

Slaughtering them after 1994? ROFL? ever heard of the UN's anti genocide policy and the old South African Military?

40 million vs 4 million? You think anything could have stopped this? *lol*



if they lift a finger the ANC probably would be put back where they belong,

speaks volumes about you.

[phoneJunky]

Here is the definition of rasicm:

the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races

Go read this thread: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=184416&highlight=definition+racism

Almost everyone discriminates on bases of race - that doesn't make you a racist though

[psichron]

Here is the definition of racism:

# the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
# discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Discrimination based on race is most definitely racist. I'd rather trust a dictionary than a MyBB thread...

[psichron]

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/racism

[Morgoth]

40 million vs 4 million? You think anything could have stopped this? *lol*




speaks volumes about you.

erm, lets see 40 million organized people vs 4 million where about half of them had proper military training?

and yes I do believe the ANC are a bunch of terrorists, why do you think Ronald Reagan and Margaret fetcher didn't want to unban them? because they were a friendly bunch?

[psichron]

The ANC used to resort to terrorism, but they are now your government. Show some respect.

[Joy-Energiser]

Quick question.How many people did Mandela kill in the name of Freedom?That he is now praised for.

[psichron]

Mandela killed less people than how many would have been killed if South Africa turned to revolution instead of peaceful reconciliation. He played a large role in keeping the peace.

[Naks]

and yes I do believe the ANC are a bunch of terrorists, why do you think Ronald Reagan and Margaret fetcher didn't want to unban them? because they were a friendly bunch?

If you are being rules by terrorists, then that makes you a victim.

No wonder you think (and probably act) like one...


and before you go there, I'm definitely anti-ANC, but not along ideological lines. No liberation movement has ever turned itself into a good governing one.

[killadoob]

Show respect to the ANC? Respect is not given it is earned. Thus far the anc have no earned F all.

[psichron]

Naks, maybe there should just have been a bloody revolution just so there'd be less people to whine about everything today :P

[SlinkyMike]

It is astonishing to me that no one here is able to see that we are all victims of apartheid.

From the child descended of people who were subjected to 'bantu education' to the young white kid who rode in the back of the family Mercedes oblivious to what was going on and has now grown up to learn not only of the hideousness of what happened but that they are now held liable...

Maybe it's not that surprising but either way, in case anyone missed it - I'll repeat: we have shared goals and shared enemies, we would do well to focus on that.

[Claymore]

Quick question.How many people did Mandela kill in the name of Freedom?That he is now praised for.

None. What's your point?

[Naks]

For those of you who are interested in the history of southern africa's treatment of black people, 'Don’t Let’s Go to the Dogs Tonight' and 'Scribbling the Cat: Travels with an African Soldier' are truly moving books by Alexandra Fuller.

[Morgoth]

Mandela killed less people than how many would have been killed if South Africa turned to revolution instead of peaceful reconciliation. He played a large role in keeping the peace.

1) respect is earned and not forced on - they did ****oll to earn it so far.
Mandela was the leader of the MK....wow they killed innocent civilians in bomb attacks, I agree that he wasn't responsible for lots of killing - the fact being that the MK used to be the ****tiest soldiers ever?

[Claymore]

Mandela was the leader of the MK....wow they killed innocent civilians in bomb attacks, I agree that he wasn't responsible for lots of killing - the fact being that the MK used to be the ****tiest soldiers ever?

How many innocent civilians had been killed by MK at the time Mandela was the MK leader (obviously up till the Rivonia Trial)?

[I am Penguin]

The ANC used to resort to terrorism, but they are now your government. Show some respect.

Respect for what?

[BrandonH]

And how many white people do you see doing this?

Well seeing as whites contribute about 2/3 of tax revenue, I'd say they are doing quite a lot to fix the wrongs of the past.

[phenom]

Can you explain to me how he was advantaged? As far as I can tell he went to a public school, and had 2 jobs to pay his way through college. The absolute ignorance in saying "you have" is just retarded. Look at his history and tell me how.Read the post just before the one you are commenting on. So Bantu education did not exist at all?????

Did he go for 'Bantu education'? If so, then im truly sorry and i appologise.

:erm::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[BrandonH]

while they sip afternoon cocktails in their multimillion-buck houses (built on land their fathers stole, nogal), complaining to each other how this country 'is going to the dogs' now that the 'blacks' are in power? :rolleyes:

Can you name any white person who is living on land his ancestors supposedly stole?

I have never met anyone who did not have to buy the land they live on.

[Syndyre]

I have never met anyone who did not have to buy the land they live on.

Take a trip up to Zim. :D

[BrandonH]

40 million vs 4 million? You think anything could have stopped this? *lol*

The army had stopped that from happening for hundreds of years.

[Nanfeishen]

What I am saying is that when the Group Areas Act came into effect, non-whites were forcefully displaced and their land stolen by whites. That is a historical fact, e.g., District 6, Claremont, etc.

So how many white peope were forced to move out of areas that were rezoned to black, coloured or indian areas?
Surely their descendants have a right to land restitution as well, but i dont see anybody fighting that fight.


the fact that most white people are still enjoying the benefits of apartheid to this day, and most of them living comfortably in their middle-class suburbs?

Ever heard of the concept of work?
My grandparents , and then my parents, actually worked, earned a living, saved money and therefore bought property.
The majority of people living in middle class suburbs work for a living, they earned the right to those properties, have payed for them.
They werent given to them under apartheid.


Btw, let's not forget that reconciliation has benefited whites more than non-whites.

What drugs are you on ?
As a white male over 40, my job aspects dropped dramatically.
My life expectancy dropped
The service i recieve for taxes paid reduced
Rates increased
Electricity increasing exponentialy
Health care non-existant
Public transport unreliable, infrequent and unsafe
Theft, hijackings, burglaries, rapes, farm attacks, armed robbery, violent crime all increased.
As a white man i have absolutely no say in the running of my country, nor any voice to speak on my behalf in government.
I would love to know how I have benefited from reconciliation.

As to the OP, if it wasnt for my generation, (your parents generation), you would have been born into war zone. I wonder how you would have fared growing up in Angola, or Mocambique at the time of your childhood. It is my generation black, white, coloured and indian that you have to thank for that.
You got 2 arms 2 legs and an education, you can always find work.
If you can push a lawnmower, start a garden service, if you can hold a paint brush, paint houses, there is always work if you are prepared to do it.

What i find ironic, is that its not the very poor, who complain about the white man in their nice house, but the middle class themselves with their fancy cars, kids in good schools, or those that have an education, that are actually doing the most complaining.

[Rendier]

Before I say anything let it be known that im not stereotyping but talking about those ppl who caused apartheid and the aftermath...


As to the OP, if it wasnt for my generation, (your parents generation), you would have been born into war zone.

A warzone that would have been caused by the previous generation... and now the youth have to deal with the aftermath...


I wonder how you would have fared growing up in Angola, or Mocambique at the time of your childhood. It is my generation black, white, coloured and indian that you have to thank for that.

The war was there... not in South Africa... my dad fought there and him along with all his fellow soldier friends says that alot of ppl lost their lives there for nothing... it was a useless war and not ours to have fought.


You got 2 arms 2 legs and an education, you can always find work.
If you can push a lawnmower, start a garden service, if you can hold a paint brush, paint houses, there is always work if you are prepared to do it.

Why would I want to do manual labour if im qualified to run a HR department? So what now... I have to settle being discriminated against and just find something that is secondary to what I want because of my color?

Im not having a go at you but just merely stating that YOU might not have been to blame for Apartheid etc but your generation caused it and now the youth has to pay for it... so don't be so quick to say aaaaahhh deal with it... we didn't ask for it and here we are having to suffer because of it... I just wish the Reconciliation Commission could have done a better job as that would have given justice to those black people who lost family and friends to arrogant white people who thought they were Gods... anyone who killed a black man in those days that wasn't in self defense should have gotten a life sentence... and it doesn't include the people who were ordered to do it... in that case the person who gave the order should have been held accountable.

[Joy-Energiser]

None. What's your point?

Are you high ? He bombed and killed many people, he's a murderer.Plain and simple.

[psichron]

So how many white peope were forced to move out of areas that were rezoned to black, coloured or indian areas?
...
My grandparents , and then my parents, actually worked, earned a living, saved money and therefore bought property. They werent given to them under apartheid.
...
As a white male over 40, my job aspects dropped dramatically.


Maybe you should start a new thread on this, because I see a lot of people posting here who conveniently ignore things like this. All they see is the white man sitting in his nice house drinking cocktails and they blame Apartheid for everything that is and was ever wrong with ZA.

You should start a blog where you tell about your experiences and perspectives on South Africa, I would love to read it.

[Rosaudio]

Are you high ? He bombed and killed many people, he's a murderer.Plain and simple.

+1

[NoLimit]

This point of view may have been expressed already.

No new generation should be accountable, be responsible or should have to undo ANYTHING that has happened in the past. History has to be recorded, analysed, understood and remembered. An opportunity to learn from the past but no more. No obligation to undo whatsoever. On a personal front, an individual may however feel some guilt and be obligated, but there should be external compulsion. It has to be a personal choice.

If you applied any other reasoning then each successive generation world over would be so heavily burdened by sins of the past, to be condemned to perpetual servitude or indebtedness.

As the present and the immediate future is only a stone's throw away from the past, the new generation will inevitably have to pay the price or be the ongoing casualties of the sins of the past. How long this lasts then depends on the maturity of the society and individuals that must now map out the future for the greater good. There is too much immaturity in RSA.

[smokey]

*snipped rubbish*

You completely missed the point of what Nan was trying to say. Not that I'm surprised mind you...

[Rendier]

You completely missed the point of what Nan was trying to say. Not that I'm surprised mind you...

What is this "rubbish" thing in my post? Who did that... I would really like to know who think that their opinion is more important than mine.

[smokey]

What is this "rubbish" thing in my post? Who did that... I would really like to know who think that their opinion is more important than mine.

You misread the entire post that you were referring to. Ergo, your post was rubbish. I have no problem with people voicing opposing opinions, but at least do it properly.

[ghoti]

Small town lifers really have it hard up. Lets do an Annie musical for Rendier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR80EEsWauU&feature=related

[Rendier]

You misread the entire post that you were referring to. Ergo, your post was rubbish. I have no problem with people voicing opposing opinions, but at least do it properly.

Don't think we are on the same page...

Did you add the "snippet rubbish" to my post because I didn't say those words... and then please quote the part which you think i misinterpreted and what my response was.

[smokey]

Don't think we are on the same page...

Did you add the "snippet rubbish" to my post because I didn't say those words... and then please quote the part which you think i misinterpreted and what my response was.

All of them. Which is why I snipped all of it. Pretty simple when you use simple logic, no?

[Rendier]

All of them. Which is why I snipped all of it. Pretty simple when you use simple logic, no?

Ok cool so according to you im talking rubbish... lol... cool mate. Go live your ignorant life... talk again in 10 years.

[smokey]

Ok cool so according to you im talking rubbish... lol... cool mate. Go live your ignorant life... talk again in 10 years.

Um... I was referring to what you had posted. Then again, if your other views are as ignorant and uniformed as the "opinions" you had in that post... yup you're talking rubbish. I hopefully won't have to talk to you in 10 years.

[Rendier]

Um... I was referring to what you had posted. Then again, if your other views are as ignorant and uniformed as the "opinions" you had in that post... yup you're talking rubbish. I hopefully won't have to talk to you in 10 years.

Bro...

I have no idea what "post" you are referring too as you yourself posted something in there... I CAN'T SEE WHAT POST YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT...

but then you went on to say that all my posts are rubbish...

I just hope I don't have to talk to you right now again...

[smokey]

Bro...

I have no idea what "post" you are referring too as you yourself posted something in there... I CAN'T SEE WHAT POST YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT...

but then you went on to say that all my posts are rubbish...

I just hope I don't have to talk to you right now again...

I quoted your post, to see which post I snipped, you can click the little button next to your name. Do you need pictures drawn in crayon or is this enough?

[zeridine]

What is this "rubbish" thing in my post? Who did that... I would really like to know who think that their opinion is more important than mine.


Don't think we are on the same page...

Did you add the "snippet rubbish" to my post because I didn't say those words... and then please quote the part which you think i misinterpreted and what my response was.


Bro...

I have no idea what "post" you are referring too as you yourself posted something in there... I CAN'T SEE WHAT POST YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT...

but then you went on to say that all my posts are rubbish...

I just hope I don't have to talk to you right now again...


I quoted your post, to see which post I snipped, you can click the little button next to your name. Do you need pictures drawn in crayon or is this enough?

OMG. i LOLed so hard - i spat wine everywhere. :D

[Rendier]

Oh wow... so sorry I don't know everything about the forum...

Please elaborate on why it's rubbish... fault me on something...

[BLaZor]

Wait a minute? Is this the infamous Rendier who made that black and white video about South Africa?

LO ****ing L!

[blogbytes]

@Rendier,

I think people would take you more serious if you would swear a little more :D.
Gees dude, f***, f***, f*** you. Lol.

The black and white vid was still ok, but the most recent onces are puke mate. I think you should join the marines so you can learn to control you emotions.

[BLaZor]

Those videos were hilarious. Asking people to take himself "seriiiiiiiiiiiiously" and how it isn't his fault that his previous generation ****ed up South Africa! :D

IIRC, he had a fight with some dude called "Khayav".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wdNBJj-UT0

LOL

[Zenbaas]

Those videos were hilarious. Asking people to take himself "seriiiiiiiiiiiiously" and how it isn't his fault that his previous generation ****ed up South Africa! :D

LOL

That I agree with though.
But hey...discrimination based on colour isn't discrimination in SA's current environment:)

EDIT: And wth is wrong with the dudes face in your youtube link...looks like it had a fight with a landmine and lost..LOL:D

[BLaZor]

That I agree with though.
But hey...discrimination based on colour isn't discrimination in SA's current environment:)

He's right indeed. However, in South Africa there is still a large divide between the rich and the poor, mainly middle class white people and lower class black people. There is an emergent middle class and there are people with progressive thinking. However, it's stupid people leading the ignorant, ie ****ty government.
It's very rare that I see a poor white person in South Africa tbh.

I often complain how crappy the labour government here is and how the conservatives should be in power ie. IRON LADY!
Then I turn my attention to Jacob Zuma and LOL! :D



EDIT: And wth is wrong with the dudes face in your youtube link...looks like it had a fight with a landmine and lost..LOL:D

LOL, that's wasis! :P
Anyway, he is one of the few african people in South Africa who had a good foundation. eg, He HAS TEH INTERNETZ lulz.
I can't say that for the people who live in the slums.

South Africa used to be the most forward nation in all of Africa, but it's regressing in some ways. I honestly think Egypt will surpass them. :(

[Zenbaas]

He's right indeed. However, in South Africa there is still a large divide between the rich and the poor, mainly middle class white people and lower class black people. There is an emergent middle class and there are people with progressive thinking. However, it's stupid people leading the ignorant, ie ****ty government.
It's very rare that I see a poor white person in South Africa tbh.

I often complain how crappy the labour government here is and how the conservatives should be in power ie. IRON LADY!
Then I turn my attention to Jacob Zuma and LOL! :D



LOL, that's wasis! :P
Anyway, he is one of the few african people in South Africa who had a good foundation. eg, He HAS TEH INTERNETZ lulz.
I can't say that for the people who live in the slums.

South Africa used to be the most forward nation in all of Africa, but it's regressing in some ways. I honestly think Egypt will surpass them. :(

The devide will never change. The rich black upper class are just getting richer and the poor are staying poor. BEE is fail...but we all know that.AA is also fail. And for what it's worth...I see an equal amount of white and black beggars on my way to work...so don't fool yourself..it there.

[smokey]

He's right indeed. However, in South Africa there is still a large divide between the rich and the poor, mainly middle class white people and lower class black people. There is an emergent middle class and there are people with progressive thinking. However, it's stupid people leading the ignorant, ie ****ty government.
It's very rare that I see a poor white person in South Africa tbh.

I often complain how crappy the labour government here is and how the conservatives should be in power ie. IRON LADY!
Then I turn my attention to Jacob Zuma and LOL! :D



LOL, that's wasis! :P
Anyway, he is one of the few african people in South Africa who had a good foundation. eg, He HAS TEH INTERNETZ lulz.
I can't say that for the people who live in the slums.

South Africa used to be the most forward nation in all of Africa, but it's regressing in some ways. I honestly think Egypt will surpass them. :(

Middle class != rich. The emerging middle class is going to be killed with this current eskom debacle.

There are two reasons you don't see poor white people.

1. Many left before they could get fscked up enough to be dirt poor.

2. You're not looking properly. There are many.

[BLaZor]

The devide will never change. The rich black upper class are just getting richer and the poor are staying poor. BEE is fail...but we all know that.AA is also fail. And for what it's worth...I see an equal amount of white and black beggars on my way to work...so don't fool yourself..it there.

Indeed.


Middle class != rich. The emerging middle class is going to be killed with this current eskom debacle.

There are two reasons you don't see poor white people.

1. Many left before they could get fscked up enough to be dirt poor.

2. You're not looking properly. There are many.

Yeah definitely mate. Excuse my lack of information, I wouldn't say I was really up to date on current affairs in SA. It's been a while.
I do read from time to time though :)

Yup, my uncle who lived in Jo'burg told me about so called white people. I guess with the recession over there aswell, people were forced to cut jobs.

[smokey]

Indeed.



Yeah definitely mate. Excuse my lack of information, I wouldn't say I was really up to date on current affairs in SA. It's been a while.
I do read from time to time though :)

Yup, my uncle who lived in Jo'burg told me about so called white people. I guess with the recession over there aswell, people were forced to cut jobs.

It's not something that's happened recently. There are large Afrikaans "squatter camps" so to speak that are at least 6-7 years old. It just ain't PC enough to show it on TV geddit? Also, there are of course far more poor black people, but then again... 40 million blacks can't be enriched overnight. The problem lies with the fact that the casualties (under the poverty line) far exceed the enriched portion. This isn;t even taking into account black diamonds.

[BLaZor]

It's not something that's happened recently. There are large Afrikaans "squatter camps" so to speak that are at least 6-7 years old. It just ain't PC enough to show it on TV geddit? Also, there are of course far more poor black people, but then again... 40 million blacks can't be enriched overnight. The problem lies with the fact that the casualties (under the poverty line) far exceed the enriched portion. This isn;t even taking into account black diamonds.

Haha so true. I would have thought the opposite tbh!
It's pretty much parellel to the US except on a smaller scale. There are several factors which account for this such as: Lack of education, money, healthcare, role models etc.

Pumping money into these townships will not solve problem, not in the long run I think. There needs to be some sustainable circulation of money and commerce for them to survive. Farmers growing a sense of business acumen etc.

[smokey]

Farmers actually learning how to farm would be a start... I've heard some horror stories about black farmers who didn't know what they were doing. Education is key dude, and it is the one thing that is going down the loo the quickest.

[BLaZor]

LOL!
Despite education costing money, I think the education system back home is far more better up to matric level in comparison to here. It's based on the Scottish system that's why! xD

Sad to hear about that though, I'm really worried about how things will be back home when I arrive.
I hear it's like travelling through a time portal. :|

[Mila]

I think the education system back home is far more better up to matric level in comparison to here.

:erm::erm: But at least you can spell.:p

[Claymore]

Are you high ? He bombed and killed many people, he's a murderer.Plain and simple.

Really? Give me a link to evidence.

[BLaZor]

:erm::erm: But at least you can spell.:p

I said the system was better. I didn't mention about the schools being better. ;)

[I am Penguin]

Farmers actually learning how to farm would be a start... I've heard some horror stories about black farmers who didn't know what they were doing. Education is key dude, and it is the one thing that is going down the loo the quickest.

Question begs? Can they be taught?

[capetownguy]

boo hoo. you have 1 life. where you go in life is up to you.

[LancelotSA]

Was it really necessary to dig this thread up after over two weeks just to throw around a few more racist comments?

[I am Penguin]

Was it really necessary to dig this thread up after over two weeks just to throw around a few more racist comments?

Racist? You must be idiotic at all times, really.

:erm: :erm: Two weeks must be a Lifetime in you mindset about this topic. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Think 14+ Years and counting and we are still stuck here, thanks to You and the Merry "ANC" men.

[LancelotSA]

Racist? You must be idiotic at all times, really.

Quite interesting that you made the immediate assumption that I must have been referring to your post even though I did not quote it and another member posted too.... would that perhaps indicate that you are fully aware of the racist nature of your post?

[I am Penguin]

Quite interesting that you made the immediate assumption that I must have been referring to your post even though I did not quote it and another member posted too.... would that perhaps indicate that you are fully aware of the racist nature of your post?

Well the deduction I made was correct as nobody else brought this thread out of the two week slumber you mentioned or did you not, idiotically as usual, refer to that fact.

The guy prior to my post was refering to people trained for farming. Only a someone like you can then assume by my question that "can the people be taught? is racist! Just goes to show what idiotic mindset you live with. Must be a life burdon.

There are many reasons why they could not be taught! But I assume you as usual knows NO better!

[LancelotSA]

I am Penguin, feel free to go and try and convince someone else of the innocence of your post. I for one will not be buying.


Farmers actually learning how to farm would be a start... I've heard some horror stories about black farmers who didn't know what they were doing. Education is key dude, and it is the one thing that is going down the loo the quickest.


Question begs? Can they be taught?

Actually feel free to clarify who "they" are...

[I am Penguin]

I am Penguin, feel free to go and try and convince someone else of the innocence of your post. I for one will not be buying.





Actually feel free to clarify who "they" are...

Then carry on with your idiotic "selling" like you always do

From experience I know your mindless labeling and tagging. It's your mindset not mine. Live with it. (I pity your family that must live with You :sick:)

[LancelotSA]

So who are "they" again?

[Zenbaas]

Quite interesting that you made the immediate assumption that I must have been referring to your post even though I did not quote it and another member posted too.... would that perhaps indicate that you are fully aware of the racist nature of your post?

Any sane person would make the same immediate assumption Lance based on your
"Was it really necessary to dig this thread up after over two weeks just to throw around a few more racist comments? " comment.

Nothing interesting about it.:rolleyes:

[LancelotSA]

Any sane person would make the same immediate assumption Lance based on your comment.

You're right, this part was the give away :


throw around a few more racist comments?

[scotty777]

I am Penguin, feel free to go and try and convince someone else of the innocence of your post. I for one will not be buying.





Actually feel free to clarify who "they" are...

they= farmers? the youth?


Honestly, I'm sick of this... You wanna know why our countries education is in a mess, and why we are suffering? It's because kids have this strange feeling that they are important, and that they have power, and that they world revolves because of them...

It's not the education system, that's doing 'alright' (it's not the greatest, but it's working), it's the bloody attitude of this country, and they youth in general. It's obvious the root of the problem lies with the kids. If the OP just worked his arse off at school, enrolled in a university, got a fantastic degree, he would have no problems with this bloody BEE and AA crap. If black, white, again, native American, Portuguese, etc. kids all just smelt the roses, they would realize that they don't actually make a difference by sitting on their bums doing nothing, the only way the world will care for you is if you make the world notice you.

It's not a race issue, and quite frankly, I am sick of the race card being thrown around to shut up the apposing force. It's whites calling the ANC racist for BEE, it's blacks calling whites racist for being richer... It's all a load of horse ****.

I tell you what, find a nation with children that are eager to study because they know that the only way they are going to get ahead in life is by working hard, and achieving goals, and you will have a future as bright as the glimmering sun.

South Africa is not the only country suffering from this new age youth... Look at England, America, what ever... they also have kids that don't want to learn...

What is it about people thinking so ridiculously selfish? How do you get a job? Do you expect to get it, or do you put in work to make yourself favourable to the employer?

So I ask you, how is the statement "can they be taught" be racist, if all races and creeds are just fast becoming delinquents of the new century?

As a student, I am disgusted by the way other pupils see the world... I'm not saying I'm any better than them, or am I saying that they are stupid etc... All I'm saying is that so many of the youth (my generation) are just expecting life you work out instead of making life work out. I've known people that are just dropping out of school because it's "hard", or because their parents don't mind them becoming useless oxygen consumers.

So who is really to blame? Is it the black 4th year engineering student who worked hard to get into University, irrespective of BEE/AA ? Is it the education system that seems to selectively fail some kids, and selectively make others achieve? Or maybe it's the kids that just don't give a dam about their future, about their lives, about creating a better world for other people?

/rant off.... I think I went too far :(

[I am Penguin]

So who are "they" again?

Let me repeat the post I made to your out of context rephrase here





Not everyone is labelled racist. Just those that make racist comments :

Again you bring the whole post out of context out in another thread. Again its YOUR mindset. YOU prefered to make bold the text YOU feel needs to suit YOUR agenda.

I was refering to the many cases of farmers that were thrown in the deep end with "Training" which as we know failed misserably. So NO they could not be taught.

Reasons:
Intelect
Schooling
Experience
Apartheid (In your view)
Farming is not for everyone Its HARD LABOUR. You cannot be taught to like HARD Labour. These farmers thought they will get everyting for FREE!

[I am Penguin]

You're right, this part was the give away :
That my friend (or rather not) was your mindset at work. What a fsucking lowlife you must have! Shame

[LancelotSA]

What a fsucking lowlife you must have! Shame

Thanks. You proved my point yet again.

[I am Penguin]

Thanks. You proved my point yet again.

The only point I proved was your Idiocrism!

[LancelotSA]

So I ask you, how is the statement "can they be taught" be racist, if all races and creeds are just fast becoming delinquents of the new century?

Because it was said in direct response to a post about black farmers. If Penguin had taken the time to explain what he meant and not been so vague then perhaps we would not need to question what he meant.

Vagueness results in us needing to interpret the meaning of "they". And in every day life the word they is often used to refer to another race.

[Nokkie]

romanticized...

[scotty777]

Because it was said in direct response to a post about black farmers. If Penguin had taken the time to explain what he meant and not been so vague then perhaps we would not need to question what he meant.

Vagueness results in us needing to interpret the meaning of "they". And in every day life the word they is often used to refer to another race.

yes, but you are so quick to pull the, seemingly very lubricated, race card.

However, even if he was talking about black farmers, it doesn't suddenly and dynamically make everything racist. Racism is when you have a complete bias against a race, or when you treat another race like a lower life form. Racism is not stating something that is true.

So again, how is it racist that black farmers can't farm, when they actually can't farm? It's got nothing to do with race, it's got to do with education!

Why is everyone so willing to pull the race card when it's not race that's driving the criticism?

[Morgoth]

yes, but you are so quick to pull the, seemingly very lubricated, race card.

However, even if he was talking about black farmers, it doesn't suddenly and dynamically make everything racist. Racism is when you have a complete bias against a race, or when you treat another race like a lower life form. Racism is not stating something that is true.

So again, how is it racist that black farmers can't farm, when they actually can't farm? It's got nothing to do with race, it's got to do with education!

Why is everyone so willing to pull the race card when it's not race that's driving the criticism?

actually its both race and education....
don't kid yourself !

Every thread and argument comes down to : the whites don't like the blacks because they get everything, and the blacks don't like the whites because they already have everything, the biggest problem in Africa is that one is to scared that they other will end up with a bit more.

[scotty777]

actually its both race and education....
don't kid yourself !

well, there's always two answers, one that's right, and the other that's true.

[LancelotSA]

When you question whether a certain race is even capable of being taught, which is what appeared to be happening, then you are being racist.

[Morgoth]

When you question whether a certain race is even capable of being taught, which is what appeared to be happening, then you are being racist.

the problem is, people can't accept that others take a bit longer to learn then they do :D

[I am Penguin]

Because it was said in direct response to a post about black farmers. If Penguin had taken the time to explain what he meant and not been so vague then perhaps we would not need to question what he meant.

Vagueness results in us needing to interpret the meaning of "they". And in every day life the word they is often used to refer to another race.

I never had a chance, You arrived! I posed a question and YOU responded and prefere,d as SirLancelot ALWAYS do, to rip it out of context to suit your own mindset and agenda.

OH MY GAWD! "They" are now racist? Is it because it is printed in black on the screen? Just change the fsucking screen color! FFS!

[LancelotSA]

the problem is, people can't accept that others take a bit longer to learn then they do :D

This is true.... but when you break down this ability to learn quickly along purely racial lines then you are being... wait for it.... racist!

I know some slooooooow white people.... in fact I can point out a few on this forum!!!! ;)

[I am Penguin]

When you question whether a certain race is even capable of being taught, which is what appeared to be happening, then you are being racist.

As we have seen with your Ruaan Pienaar saga, You take a helava long time to learn, thus cannot be taught, now what does that mean in light of you post.
Where did I refer to the race? I refered to the "farmers" YOU decided to bold the race and took it on YOURSELF to call me racist for making a comment on a post someone else wrote.

[LancelotSA]

I never had a chance, You arrived! I posed a question and YOU responded and prefere,d as SirLancelot ALWAYS do, to rip it out of context to suit your own mindset and agenda.

OH MY GAWD! "They" are now racist? Is it because it is printed in black on the screen? Just change the fsucking screen color! FFS!

And if you had just directed a little more of that energy of yours in clarifying this in your next post instead of using it to call people idiots, as you enjoy doing, then you could have avoided this.

You appear to spend too much of your time thinking of clever veiled insults that you can slip past the mods and too little on getting your thoughts across.

I'm still not buying though.

[scotty777]

This is true.... but when you break down this ability to learn quickly along purely racial lines then you are being... wait for it.... racist!

I know some slooooooow white people.... in fact I can point out a few on this forum!!!! ;)

I'm sorry :(