Trouble for ATI? [Archive]

eye_suc

08-06-2005, 07:30 AM

if they DONT get the xbox chip ready then they gonna be in deep crap with MS. I doubt any company would risk such bad publicity.

So, if we assume that there is no chance that ATI will NOT have the xbox chip ready, then we can safely assume that the R520 will be out shortly after that. Even if it is late by one or two quarters (doubt it) it would still kick the pants of nVidia. Sadly, i would probably have to stay with nVidia, because these fancy cards would be in a price league of their own.

FireFLi

08-06-2005, 08:45 AM

rburley

08-06-2005, 12:45 PM

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Looks like ATI took the gamble and lost :o . I personally prefer nVidia chipsets, I have found them far less problematic than ATI (in my experience). But I agree with eye_suc a lack of competition can only be bad for the consumer. :eek:

I disagree, what was the last ATI you had? The earlier ATI's radeons where full of s**t but the later ones are brilliant. I will never buy Nvidia!

A friend of mine has got identical computer to me but it has Nvidia gfx and it doesnt compare to mine!

FireFLi

08-06-2005, 12:50 PM

You'll laugh if I told you, was many moons ago. But it's just one of those things I suppose. I had sooo much trouble with it that it put me off ATI for life. I have had 3 nVidia cards since and have been completely satisfied with them.

rburley

08-06-2005, 12:56 PM

munwaal

08-06-2005, 01:17 PM

I had a TI4200 (which, at the time that I bought it, believed would be fantastic). 4 months later I got so pissed with it, that I sold it and bought the (then) top of the range ATI, the 9800 Pro. I have not looked back since, and currently run an X800 pro. After all the crap nvidia pulled with their abortion of a 5900 series (non standard DX rendering paths and driver cheating), I doubt I will ever run one of their products again.

Since the release of the Radeon 9xxx series, ATI has not put a foot wrong. Their drivers have far surpassed anything else available from any competitor. You install a driver, and you play - simple. All of their cards are a single-slot, elegantly cooled solution, not some huge, ugly green bohemoth that takes up 2 slots and makes a racket (let's face it, with see-thru case sides, the inside has to look good!!) Image quality has always been and remains superb, with Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering performance way above that of NVidia. The fact that Microsoft has severed their relationship with NVidia in favour of ATI speaks absolute VOLUMES. I don't think it's wise to discount them simply because some guy on some website got his hands on some information..

rburley

08-06-2005, 01:31 PM

i agree

Luke7777

08-06-2005, 01:33 PM

The fact that Microsoft has severed their relationship with NVidia in favour of ATI speaks absolute VOLUMES.
Does that mean that Apple and Linux is also crap :D

rburley

08-06-2005, 01:38 PM

ByE bYe NvIdEa (http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=2091)

Luke7777

08-06-2005, 01:47 PM

ByE bYe NvIdEa (http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=2091)
Article date 14/08/2003 :confused: Hope that's not the most recent article predicting Nvidia's "death" you could find :D

munwaal

08-06-2005, 02:46 PM

Does that mean that Apple and Linux is also crap :D

Don't get me started! :p

rburley

08-06-2005, 04:19 PM

Article date 14/08/2003 :confused: Hope that's not the most recent article predicting Nvidia's "death" you could find :D

woops didnt see that there!

but same principle

Angellus

08-06-2005, 10:22 PM

Well about the dual slot cards, the next ATI cards R520 will also be 2 slot cards so there goes that argument. The current Gen cards compare very well. I personally prefer Nvidia but I have to say that there is not that much difference. Nvidia beats ATI in doom3 and the other way around in HL2. I think one of ATI's biggest problems is their drivers. Nvidia's drivers have been the best for years and I have never had any problems with them. (Duck flames from all over! :D)

My GFX History:
ATI Mach 64 (ROFL)
ATI RIVA 128 (Was a great card)
Diamond Monster 3D II (3dfx Voodoo 2 8MB)
3dfx Voodoo 3 2000 (Think this was my fav card ever!!! only cost me R700 new)
Gainward Geforce 3
Gainward Geforce 5900 Ultra 256MB
Leadtek Geforce 6800GT

Leadtek I hate cos if you think dual slot cards are big look at this silly card, it is the biggest card I have ever seen! 2.5 slots!!! This silly card is too big to run in SLI on my board!! The only board I know of that can take 2 is the ASUS sli boards.

In the end it all comes down to personal preference, my advice go for the Gainward cards nothing else compares!

munwaal

08-06-2005, 11:25 PM

Perdition

09-06-2005, 01:47 AM

I'm happy with the performance of my BFG 6800GT (OC'd to ultra speed) and it only takes up one slot ;) I'm not a fanboy of either camp, I go with whatever I perceive to give the best bang for the buck at the time. All my cards have been nVidia but this is purely becuase at the time of purchase nVidia was at the top. I don't feel the need to defend nVidia, my card handles every game I throw at it with no problem.

munwaal

09-06-2005, 06:44 AM

At the end of the day, when you're spending a couple of grand on a video card, you're going to get the best card your money can buy, irrespective of who made it. That said tho, admittably I am a little biased towards ATI.. I have a hard time trusting NVidia after the 5900 debacle.

FireFLi

09-06-2005, 08:44 AM

Leadtek I hate cos if you think dual slot cards are big look at this silly card, it is the biggest card I have ever seen! 2.5 slots!!! This silly card is too big to run in SLI on my board!! The only board I know of that can take 2 is the ASUS sli boards.

I have the Asus 6800GT. Had problems with the first card but no hassles since I received the replacement. It's very long but not wide at all, can easily fit 2 on my A8N-SLI Mobo. (Which is at the mo is experiencing silly fan issues see here (http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=21865) )

eye_suc

09-06-2005, 09:00 AM

ATI does only lose in 1 or 2 games, but the mid range cards from ATI are too expensive for me... I am an ATI Fanboy, only because they are better according to most benches. nVidia however offers much better performance in the mid-range cards and cost wise they be cheap. So until ATI drops their prices i'm stuck on nVidia.

Angellus

09-06-2005, 01:58 PM

Well ATM the highest performance solution is Nvidia.

SLI 6800 Ultra beats all!! ;) :D

I believe in Brand loyalty and have been with Nvidia for the past 3 cards I have owned. ATI might be good but I will never risk changing to them.

Lets see though who wins what.

UT2004. Nvidia wins by quite some margin.
Call of Duty. Nvidia wins.
Doom III. Nvidia Wins.
Far Cry. ATI wins But not by much
Battlefield Vietnam. ATI wins but once again not by much.
Half Life 2. ATI wins by some margin.

So there ya go 3 vs 3. Point is in most games the margin of the win is so small it's not worth mentioning.

In the end it comes down to one thing what you prefer. Me I like my Nvidia cards always will. BTW what is being used in the PS3? Nvidia

Must say though the ATI drivers have improved but two of my friends have ATI cards and both prefer the Nvidia drivers.

eye_suc

09-06-2005, 02:24 PM

Sadly SLI doesnt support all games out there. is it one third that is supported? Forget the figure...

Any case, the ATI crossfire wont have that problem. Crossfire will support ALL games and have multiple possible configurations, whereas SLI FORCES you to have identical cards with identical BIOS.

ATI is even releasing a card soon, R520, that is (allegedly) more powerful than two 6800U in SLI mode. Might be rumours, but the crossfire thing still sounds way more potent and flexible.

eye_suc

09-06-2005, 02:33 PM

Fair enough Angellus, nvidia is in the PS3. And ATI is in the XBOX with their R500 chip. Doesnt matter really, the games will determines which is a better console.

Aye, i also like my nvidia drivers on my 6600gt, which is the best card i have ever owned. If i had more money i might have taken a ATI, but who knows.

Ive had (since 1995):
Trident 2MEG SVGA Card
Creative 3d Blaster PCI (yuk)
3dfx voodoo rush (single board)
3dfx voodoo (add-on board)
3dfx voodoo 2 12mb (add-on board)
tnt2 m64 (cheap mans tnt2)
geforce 2mx
radeon 9000 pro
6600 gt

that last one is the best card i ever had (not just performance, but ease of use and features and lack of issues, etc), though i would love to test drive a ATI x800 XL or X850 XT PE :P

Angellus

09-06-2005, 02:58 PM

Dont get me wrong I am not completely one sided, if ATI have a good card I will praise that too. ATI is having trouble with the R520 but we will have to wait and see. The next gen cards will be interesting, R520 is kinda being delayed and the G70(Nvidia's new card) might bbe launched quite soon. The killer is Nvidia will go for a single slot card while ATI will go dual slot! Quite Interesting.

Thing is I have never used one of the current gen cards, I own a 6800GT but I have not installed it yet :( I have work that needs to be done and dont want to risk losing anything till it's done. So my AMD Atlon 64 4000+, SLI mobo and 6800GT will have to wait another week or two. :( It's killing me it has been lying there for 2 weeks not being used! Still using my Athlon XP 2400+ and 5900Ultra. Don't care what anybody says I love my 5900Ultra from Gainward! It can run faster the the 5950 Ultra. Can you say Golden Sample!

Anyway next gen cards will rock but it looks like ATI will come in a bit later with a more powerful card. But Nvidia will get the jump on the market and their card may still turnout to be just as good or even better.

Luke7777

09-06-2005, 03:14 PM

3dfx voodoo rush (single board)
Guess you were a late adopter :D Mine was the daughter card version, "imported" from the States at $US 149 :eek: Built a fan card with 3 Pentium Pro fans on it, mounted beneath the gfx card, to try and keep the Stingray stable when o/c, in order to get 2 more FPS out of Quake 1 (640x480) . Still have the pics around somewhere :D

Angellus

09-06-2005, 03:40 PM

LOL the good old 3dfx days.

I loved my Voodoo 3 2000, only cost me R700. Compared to R2400-R2500 for my 6800GT. Why don't we get cards like that anymore?

killadoob

09-06-2005, 03:48 PM

because they know they can rip us off

Clipse

09-06-2005, 04:01 PM

LOL the good old 3dfx days.

I loved my Voodoo 3 2000, only cost me R700. Compared to R2400-R2500 for my 6800GT. Why don't we get cards like that anymore?

Pretty obvious, cause the voodoo3 2000 was never a mainstream card, it was for the cheapasses ;-) and performed similar.. the voodoo3 3000/4000 cost alot more and performed alot better..

If you want similar priced cards, go for the superb *cough* SIS Xabre cards lol

Also to previous posts about MS and ATI, ye they working together on console level for xbox360. Sony and Nvidia on Console for PS3, theres some obvious views atm that the ps3 would simply blow the xbox360 away :)

Whos the winner now?

eye_suc

09-06-2005, 04:01 PM

Erm, they can rip us off cause we all want to see the hairs on your marines arms in Doom 3 and we want to use SM 2.0+ settings on Rid****. If you want the greatest you must mar fork it over, or shovel it as the case may be.

What you guys think? Someone on toms predicted a major price drop soon because of the imminent release of the next gen cards. Would be sweet yes. Plus, is it fair to charge R6000 or more for a card just because it performs twice or thrice as well as the current cards? Somethings gotta give...

Clipse

09-06-2005, 04:04 PM

well if the nextgen performs 3times better, then obviously there had to be some major cost incurred to yield that much performance on a nextgen card.

Cost need to be covered asap, not in 2 or 3 or 4 years :)

eye_suc

09-06-2005, 04:11 PM

erm, you mean we gonna keep paying more and more and more for graphics cards? The costs incurred will we covered as long as they shift as many units as possible.

Also, how come the xbox360 en ps3 are gonna be so cheap? Their graphics cards are much better than the ones we've got now. Must be cause they expecting to shift zillions of units. Or it means that manufacturing a x850 XT PE costs only 10% of the retail cost

Clipse

09-06-2005, 04:15 PM

look at the titles on xbox/ps3 .. Cost alot more than your pcgame title, and its more difficult to chip/crack or whatever to run copied games on. They generally allways end up with higher software sales per unit, thats where they make the money on consoles.

killadoob

09-06-2005, 04:24 PM

i think they make their money off the games not the consoles. i mean the consoles are rather cheap in comparison to the games

when the ps2 was 2000

one game could set you back as much 500 600 so four = one console
imagine how much money pc game makers could make if they could sell their games at ps2 prices almost double

Angellus

09-06-2005, 04:29 PM

Pretty obvious, cause the voodoo3 2000 was never a mainstream card, it was for the cheapasses ;-) and performed similar.. the voodoo3 3000/4000 cost alot more and performed alot better..

If you want similar priced cards, go for the superb *cough* SIS Xabre cards lol

Also to previous posts about MS and ATI, ye they working together on console level for xbox360. Sony and Nvidia on Console for PS3, theres some obvious views atm that the ps3 would simply blow the xbox360 away :)

Whos the winner now?

Well here I have to disagree. The Voodoo 3 2000/3000/3500 were one generation of cards the 4000/5000/6000 were the next gen ie the VSA100 chip.

The prices when I got my 2000 were as follows 2000 - R700, 3000 - R800 and the 3500 - R1200. Remember the 3500 had a tv tuner. The Difference in performance between these 3 were not that big. I current prices are crazy! The scary thing is some people actually think they can justify an SLI setup when anything over 60fps makes no difference at all! Just think of the price of just the gfx cards for a 6800 Ultra sli setup!

Clipse

09-06-2005, 04:32 PM

remember back then R700 was worth alot more aswell.. thats what? 6-7years ago?

Remember, if 60fps is good enough for you, then dont buy something better. No one is forcing you to buy a setup that can do 300fps.

If you want to be up with the performance frenzy people, u need to fork out cash. Look at the car tuning society, they spend gazillions on car mods etc. to get faster/better looking car.

Luke7777

09-06-2005, 05:21 PM

There's a difference to hitting 60fps and SUSTAINING 60fps :D

Angellus

09-06-2005, 06:33 PM

Clipse I see your point but the thing is you get a lot of kids who tell their parents "I really NEED a R12000 6800 Ultra SLI rig"(That is R12000 for just the GFX cards!) the parents don't know any better so they fork out the cash. The area I live in has many such families. The only reason I have a 6800GT in the first place is cos my dad goes to dubai very often for work. I do need these things for my studies though. 3D Animation needs a lot of horse power! both CPU and GPU need to be good and you also need a lot of ram.

Then on another point sure R700 was a lot back then but nowhere near what cards cost today! Look at what the new 7800GTX will cost when it arrives. R6500 is my guess and the ATI card will be even more. I think the best option is to get an SLI mobo for the option to upgrade and get something in the line of a 6800GT. It will last you a long time.

Strobemeister

09-06-2005, 07:46 PM

My TI4200 runs WOW perfectly. I've had it since they launched it, best value 4 money piece of kit i've bought.

Perdition

10-06-2005, 01:18 AM

R6500 would just be insane. I paid R3000 for my 6800GT and I still couldn't believe I was forking out so much for one component! Though after playing Doom 3 and HL-2 on it at 1600x1200 I felt a little better ;) Basically a 6800GT (or equivalent ATI card) will last you for quite a while as a lot of games released in the next year or two will be based on the Doom 3 or HL-2 engine. SLI is just overkill at this point unless you have 6600GT's.

As for older games I play Quake 3 at 1600x1200 8xAA 16xAF and most of the time the FPS stays capped at a solid 100 (my refresh rate).

munwaal

10-06-2005, 07:04 AM

My TI4200 runs WOW perfectly. I've had it since they launched it, best value 4 money piece of kit i've bought.

"Perfectly" is relative. Since the game doesn't support Anti-Aliasing, I feel the need to crank the resolution. So, 1600x1200 with 8x AF @ 50+ FPS is my idea of perfect :)

BTTB

10-06-2005, 07:55 AM

The 6800 and the X800 Series are both good.

After my Geforce 3 I bought an X800 Pro. Well it is a superb card. Not one days issue, but then again I did not have any problems with my Geforce 3 either. It was just getting a bit slow.
The only thing I did not like about that Geforce was that it needed more Voltage on the CPU, whereas with my new ATI, the CPU runs at default voltages and everyone will agree, the less voltage, the less heat, the better.

When ATI makes a SLI card, not that I have a SLI board, I think NVIDIA will have stiff competition. I am still using AGP and quite happy. I personally want to see the SLI setups mature a little more before I buy one.
At the moment I have a friend who is running an ATI card on an Nforce 3 setup and really what more would you need. In some cases, his setup with just the one AGP card is faster.
See Advice on AMD (http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=223113#post223113) for referrence.

RoosTa

10-06-2005, 12:58 PM

The real question about the card you want to buy, should be: Can your graphics card run and consistantly have 40-60fps+ with the next gen graphics in a year's time? I'd rather save and get a high performance card(R4000-R5000) that will last me for 2 years, than a budget card (R1500) that will last(dropping below 30fps) for 6 months (1 year max) .

Also, I've found that the 'second' batch of the the 'next' gen is always better. Voodoo2, GeForce 2, Geforce 4, 9800 etc etc

3D Animation needs a lot of horse power! both CPU and GPU need to be good and you also need a lot of ram.
If you are serious in rendered 3D Animations, rather get a hardware render card than an SLI GPU, since the GPU is NOT used for rendering at all. The GPU is only used in the modelling process (realtime graphics), but you don't need a powerful GPU since you hide most of the other meshes anyways, at least I do it's alot less cluttered and adaptive degradation is there to help for those very high poly scenes. The only time I can see a GPU come in handy for "work", is if you are a 3D game modeller and need to view "ingame" graphics with shaders and all. You should also look into getting a Dual CPU setup (or new Dual Cores). The only thing GPU's are really used for is Games.

My TI4200 runs WOW perfectly. I have everything maxed out in gfx settings, yet my x800Pro sometimes drops below 30fps[1280x1024] (especially in STV). ""Perfectly" is relative." -munwaal

Since the game doesn't support Anti-Aliasing,... erm, yes it does. I enable it through the ATi control centre, rather than the Video Options. The resolution dropdown lists all the AA/AF modes, though very confusing.

Angellus

10-06-2005, 01:04 PM

Well BTTB I have to agree with you that ATI will provide stiff competition with their Crossfire solution. Now everyone here working for their own money or those who think before trying to get their parents to spend a fortune. The 6800 Ultra single or SLI and equivalent ATI solutions are TOP END STUFF. You pay a fortune! For most people R6500 is more than a whole months pay! The smart thing to do is to always be slightly behind or to buy midrange cards. Look at what a 6800GT cost when it came out and look at what it costs now. Look at the price again when the 7800GT and GTX come out. BTW that should be pretty soon.

Angellus

10-06-2005, 01:12 PM

If you are serious in rendered 3D Animations, rather get a hardware render card than an SLI GPU, since the GPU is NOT used for rendering at all. The GPU is only used in the modelling process (realtime graphics), but you don't need a powerful GPU since you hide most of the other meshes anyways, at least I do it's alot less cluttered and adaptive degradation is there to help for those very high poly scenes. The only time I can see a GPU come in handy for "work", is if you are a 3D game modeller and need to view "ingame" graphics with shaders and all. You should also look into getting a Dual CPU setup (or new Dual Cores). The only thing GPU's are really used for is Games.

First off I have been using 3D Animation programs for over 6 years and let me tell you if you don't have a good GPU running you will start complaining real soon. The hardware render card could be an option but I think it would work out cheaper to simply buy a second PC for rendering alone. I know the GPU does nothing for the final render but I have to be able to have smooth viewport movement otherwise I get frustrated. BTW what animation package you using? I use 3D Studio Max 7.5 Just a question, if what you say is true and the GPU is only there for games why would ATI and Nvidia create their FireGL and Quadro series cards?

RoosTa

10-06-2005, 01:58 PM

3D games are the ones pushing the GPU's forward not 3DSMax.

At work, I use 3D Studio Max 6.0, use a Nvidia 5700LE GPU, P4 2.8, 2Gig Ram and I find it to be suffient for working with 3d models. If there is one thing that I don't like about the 3DSMax, is it's realtime 3D engine (not too sure if they improved it in 7.5). It's been buggy since Max3 and far from optimised. I've seen games push double the amount of poly's, than what max's view can handle and I also find software mode the most stable, though I do use DirectX9 for speed.

FireGl and Quadro cards are overrated. I used to use a FireGL card (with its own "3DSMax optimised drivers" and its no better than any other games GPU. Besides, there are 'patches' (they probably hardware locked them by now) that can turn any standard GeForce card a Quadro Card.

Angellus

10-06-2005, 03:33 PM

You still get SOftquadro and it does work but the improvement is not great. The realtime rendering in the viewport is very good with max 7/7.5 You get Normal mapping in the viewport and basically anything else you would with dx9. Works great. With normal mapping I took a 12000 poly model down to about 720. It looked almost identical. Max 7.5 also has fur included for free. BTW if I may ask where do you work? What type of work do you do?

munwaal

10-06-2005, 04:33 PM

I have everything maxed out in gfx settings, yet my x800Pro sometimes drops below 30fps[1280x1024] (especially in STV). ""Perfectly" is relative." -munwaal

erm, yes it does. I enable it through the ATi control centre, rather than the Video Options. The resolution dropdown lists all the AA/AF modes, though very confusing.

My appologies, I haven't played in a few months, and back then AA didn't work at all, even though you enable it in the control center. When last I played, I was able to play at 1600x1200, 8x AF and maintain frames comfortably above 30, for the most part.

RoosTa

10-06-2005, 04:54 PM

HAHA, we've hi-jacked this thread completely!

I work for UCS Software Manufacturing and our department does all the multimedia and graphics for all our products in UCS Group. (Brochures, manuals, website, ui design (plus skins) and multimedia) I concentrate mostly on the UI and multimedia, such as interactive learning and 3D animations for expos and road shows. (Our CEO loves 3D Animations)

I've been 'playing' with 3D graphics, since Povray on a 386DX. I've never gone for a course (I still want to), but I've tought myself Max (1.2) using books, tutorials and the web(best). I've also played around alot with the unreal engine 1 and 2.

RoosTa

10-06-2005, 04:56 PM

My appologies, I haven't played in a few months, and back then AA didn't work at all, even though you enable it in the control center. When last I played, I was able to play at 1600x1200, 8x AF and maintain frames comfortably above 30, for the most part.

Heh, I also prefer higher resolution and High AF, than to adding AA. I find AA makes the picture look fuzzy and it hurts my eyes.

munwaal

10-06-2005, 05:07 PM

Heh, I also prefer higher resolution and High AF, than to adding AA. I find AA makes the picture look fuzzy and it hurts my eyes.

It's not that I prefer it that way, it's just that the game didn't support any kind of AA back when I played it. Personally, I like 1280x1024 with 2x AA just to take the edge off.