Adobe gets back at Apple, HTC wants iPhone out of USA

[Rouxenator]

http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_files_a_complaint_against_apple_wants_iphone_o ut_of_usa-news-1654.php

Today HTC filed a complaint against Apple with the United States International Trade Commission. According to HTC, Apple has infringed five HTC patents and its law department insists on halting the importation and sales of the iPhone, iPod and iPad in the USA.

As usual halting the sales on a top product(s) is a standard request in these cases. It's interesting that HTC hasn't filed a law suit on that matter yet, it's just that complaint to the Trade Commission.

According to Gizmodo the five related patents are:
two for power management
two concerning personalized phone dialers
one over a phone dialer with easy memory access

As you may have heard, Apple is already suing HTC on patent matters. HTC has responded they are ready to meet in court. Whoever wins this, it won't be easy and surely it will take a while
http://blog.gsmarena.com/adobe-launches-an-ad-campaign-against-apple/


http://blog.gsmarena.com/pics/10/05/adobe-ad-campaign/gsmarena_001.jpg

The genius of the Internet is its almost infinite openness to innovation. New hardware. New software. New applications. New ideas. They all get their chance.

As the founders of Adobe, we believe open markets are in the best interest of developers, content owners, and consumers. Freedom of choice on the web has unleashed an explosion of content and transformed how we work, learn, communicate, and, ultimately, express ourselves.

If the web fragments into closed systems, if companies put content and applications behind walls, some indeed may thrive — but their success will come at the expense of the very creativity and innovation that has made the Internet a revolutionary force.

We believe that consumers should be able to freely access their favorite content and applications, regardless of what computer they have, what browser they like, or what device suits their needs. No company — no matter how big or how creative — should dictate what you can create, how you create it, or what you can experience on the web.

When markets are open, anyone with a great idea has a chance to drive innovation and find new customers. Adobe’s business philosophy is based on a premise that, in an open market, the best products will win in the end — and the best way to compete is to create the best technology and innovate faster than your competitors.

That, certainly, was what we learned as we launched PostScript® and PDF, two early and powerful software solutions that work across platforms. We openly published the specifications for both, thus inviting both use and competition. In the early days, PostScript attracted 72 clone makers, but we held onto our market leadership by out-innovating the pack. More recently, we’ve done the same thing with Adobe® Flash® technology. We publish the specifications for Flash — meaning anyone can make their own Flash player. Yet, Adobe Flash technology remains the market leader because of the constant creativity and technical innovation of our employees.

We believe that Apple, by taking the opposite approach, has taken a step that could undermine this next chapter of the web — the chapter in which mobile devices outnumber computers, any individual can be a publisher, and content is accessed anywhere and at any time.

In the end, we believe the question is really this: Who controls the World Wide Web? And we believe the answer is: nobody — and everybody, but certainly not a single company.

Chuck Geschke, John Warnock
Cofounders
Chairmen, Adobe Board of Directors

http://blog.gsmarena.com/pics/10/05/adobe-ad-campaign/gsmarena_002.jpg

[francoislr]

I saw a video of Android 2.2(FroYo) online last night, running flash on the phone...It is incredible! Just making Flash to be able to work on a phone meant that they made android about 400-500% faster, don't know the technicals, but it's there and will be announced before the end of the month by Google. Traditionally HTC has been the company that did not want to play ball, but now with Android, the ball is on the field, and there are players, but I don't see any apples in the game.

[BobJones]

Yep, that's why HTML5 is a true open web standard and Flash is not.

Rather get going on fixing the crappy performance of flash on OS X than whining like a bunch of old women over the fact that Apple has made a choice for their mobile devices, they just haven't chosen flash.

[BobJones]

I saw a video of Android 2.2(FroYo) online last night, running flash on the phone...It is incredible! Just making Flash to be able to work on a phone meant that they made android about 400-500% faster, don't know the technicals, but it's there and will be announced before the end of the month by Google. Traditionally HTC has been the company that did not want to play ball, but now with Android, the ball is on the field, and there are players, but I don't see any apples in the game.

Yeah, I saw that one too... it was pretty funny how flash caused the browser to crash just as the demonstrator was saying something snarky about the iPad.

[francoislr]

Yeah, I saw that one too... it was pretty funny how flash caused the browser to crash just as the demonstrator was saying something snarky about the iPad.

Must have seen a different one then;-)

[BobJones]

Must have seen a different one then;-)

Read here (http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2010/may/08/android-flash-demo-flashcamp-seattle/), couldn't find the youtube clip... I think it's been removed.

[subxero]

Video proof, or it never happened! (Ahem! Youtube deleted the video... (must have violated their TOS))

Been over 2 years on OSX on a hackintosh (5 years on real macs). Have yet to have Firefox crash once due to Flash. Am I lucky? Or am I just missing out on something.... I have noted, though, that my temps in i-stat go from 31 degrees to almost 45 degrees on a Flash intensive site. (On my Hackintosh) Real Mac users will probably experience higher temps due to their restrictive form factor. Our work i-macs go from 50 - 70 degrees. No crashes though. Seems as though Apple are trying to solve their over-heating issues any which way they can. (ie. easiest way out)

Edit: More on Topic - Macbooks, I-Pods, I-Pads and I-phones are heat challenged by nature of the device design and the way the OS consumes power to run software like Flash. Read up on shattered I-phone and I-Pod screens due to overheating as a result of battery swelling (expansion from heat) - this, even without Flash. Apple are blaming 3rd party apps (from their app store) for this, claiming they are drawing too much power by making undue use of the processor - thus, straining the battery.

I think Flash usage just highlights the issue. Flash makes the processor actually use real power - causing heat generation from the processor combined with the battery overheating from actual power consumption - this heat generation in their small form factor devices is their undoing. (i-pads would be the most vulnerable) So... instead of solving the underlying issues.... outlaw Flash.

[francoislr]

Okay, if it's video proof you want, here is the page where the videos are....they seem to still work, so check it out. But apparently this is only officially launched later this month, maybe thats why the cover-up? That's what happens when you own youtube...you can cover stuff up;-)
http://www.androidpolice.com/2010/05/10/a-video-of-an-adobe-evangelist-showcasing-flash-10-1-smoothly-running-on-a-nexus-one-with-android-2-2-froyo/

But subxero, as you said, this is an old problem, I remember all the stories and people complaining about their Macs (Macbooks in particular if I remember correctly) catching fire. So yeah, they are taking the easy way out...Apple=slackers regarding this.

[Synaesthesia]

Yeah, I saw that one too... it was pretty funny how flash caused the browser to crash just as the demonstrator was saying something snarky about the iPad.
That was quite funny, he also tried to cover it up later, saying he hit a "hidden" home button!

[Synaesthesia]

But subxero, as you said, this is an old problem, I remember all the stories and people complaining about their Macs (Macbooks in particular if I remember correctly) catching fire. So yeah, they are taking the easy way out...Apple=slackers regarding this.
They're not slackers, the iPhone and iPad have done just fine without Flash, now Adobe are all upset about that. Only now is Flash support for certain Android phones becoming available, on Snapdragons and ARM9 chips, the iPhone is almost 3 years old and most of them run a 400MHz ARM8, which just can't run Flash in it's current form.

And Adobe Flash 10.1 beta runs a lot better on Macs BTW, I can recommend that, or Google Chrome 5 beta for best Flash speed. Apple are actually working to improve Flash on OS X.

[rorz0r]

Hmmmm.... Wonder if Adobe gave HTC/Google an extra helping hand to get flash running nicely because of Apple...
And then published a video of it on youtube (owned by Google) which uses Flash.

[murraybiscuit]

Hmmmm.... Wonder if Adobe gave HTC/Google an extra helping hand to get flash running nicely because of Apple...
And then published a video of it on youtube (owned by Google) which uses Flash.

presumably. clearly adobe needs friends right now and google needs vendors to support VP8 in the upcoming codec wars.
interesting point about the overheating. apple seems to generally try to cram as much tech into as small a form factor as possible.
what do consumers want? well, why not support both? well done to google for giving the consumer the choice.
i'm so gatvol of these patent wars. please let's all just move on. rather gain market share by producing more innovative affordable products than trying to litigate your way to the top.

[rorz0r]

The Desire is thinner than the iPhone, has a 1ghz vs 400mhz cpu and runs flash just fine. No heat problems so far. Gets fairly warm when charging but nothing worrying.

[Rouxenator]

Actually, CPU speed is irrelevant here because they are not running the same OS. If they did then CPU speed would be relevant. For example, Symbian flies on 433mhz processor since it is a highly optimized mobile OS - some of the newer Symbian phones "only" uses a 600mhz CPU but the responsiveness can beat other devices on 1ghz snapdragons running, say, Windows Mobile.

[cerebus]

*smashes head repeatedly on desk*

stop...........talking............................ .about...........................SYMBIAN

[icyrus]

The Desire is thinner than the iPhone, has a 1ghz vs 400mhz cpu and runs flash just fine. No heat problems so far. Gets fairly warm when charging but nothing worrying.

Flash lite?

[Rouxenator]

Nothing wrong with flash lite, been on Series40 and Series60 (see I manged not so say Symbian) devices for ages now and works just fine. Even on 300mhz devices.

[cerebus]

:p lol

[Synaesthesia]

Symbian is primitive compared to iPhone OS, or even Android. Why do you think iPhone has 200 thousand apps? It's got a sophisticated OS with awesome & modern API's that's why.

[Rouxenator]

The iPhone only has 200k apps of which most users install 2 or 20 on their iphone. Symbian has an internet full of apps. The iphones uses inferior hardware compared to symbian devices and needs to be jailbroken before it becomes remotely useful. Therefore you cannot call symbian primitive compared against the iphone. Appletude is a serious illness and you seem to suffer from it.

[rorz0r]

Please direct me to the internet full of apps for symbian.

The only reason Symbian has apps is because for a long time it was basically the only option. Before that was java/midp. (and about 5 people on windows mobile).

Just counted the apps installed on my desire. 57. (admittedly some are pretty silly like "air horn", "dog whistler" and "lady gaga ringtones")
On my E65: 4 (gmail, tomtom, google maps, opera mini 4)

The "Ovi Store" has complete crap on it.
*logs in to ovi*
Recommended for me:
Smell Scanner
Opera Mini
Snaptu
High speed 3d free (slow as anything and graphics really suck)
Office games challenge
Paradise city
Zumzum
Locago
Letters to Juliet - EPKTrailer
Trivial pursuit

Page2:
Mostly rubbish, has trapster but that doesn't actually work on my phone.

[Rouxenator]

Ovi Maps I get - but Ovi store ? Who wants to go to a virtual store on the internet to get virtual apps ? Whats wrong with google !

[cerebus]

No roux you don't get it... Symbian has NO DECENT APPS. They do not exist.

My experience of trying to read ebooks on iPhone/iTouch:

1: Download Stanza
2: Sync books
3: Read......

My experience of trying to read ebooks on N97/5800XM:

1: Download Mobipocket
2: Realize it isn't compatible with s60v5
3: Rootle around the forums
4: Find obscure Russian app
5: Download.... certificate expired
6: Search around for updated certificate model that doesn't require me to root phone because I know what a nightmare that will be
7: Find copy
8: Try to sync books
9: Realize it's only compatible with 1 ebook format
10: Download format converter
11: Re-sync books to N97
12: Still won't read book
13: Give up in disgust and sell phone.

That's the reality of me trying to get to grips with your lovely Symbian last week. Works great on candybar dumbphones, sucks horribly as a smartphone OS.

[Rouxenator]

Mmm, Ovi maps with free lifetime navigation is a pretty sweet app. SynVPN has some awesome tools that makes my 5800xm useful and I really love http://www.thatroachgame.com/ (symbian app). There are millions of other cool apps for Symbian. Apart from that you normally find symbian on high end devices so in total you get a sweet deal from a company that does not hold you (or flash) hostage and shares their innovation with other companies (as long as they share too). But you mentioned the word "books" so I will have to assume you are an old person reading stuff so you are special.

[Tanya35]

Symbian is primitive compared to iPhone OS, or even Android. Why do you think iPhone has 200 thousand apps? It's got a sophisticated OS with awesome & modern API's that's why.


Symbian is so "primitive" it could do multitasking years before Apple attempted it. The iPad doesn't even do true multitasking.
Cut 'n Paste was also absent on the very advanced iPhone whilst Symbian had this on phones years ago.

[assagai]

Ok Roux that last post just blew any shred of credibility I thought you had. "An old person reading stuff so you are special". What does that even mean?

[Tanya35]

Please direct me to the internet full of apps for symbian.

The only reason Symbian has apps is because for a long time it was basically the only option. Before that was java/midp. (and about 5 people on windows mobile).

Just counted the apps installed on my desire. 57. (admittedly some are pretty silly like "air horn", "dog whistler" and "lady gaga ringtones")
On my E65: 4 (gmail, tomtom, google maps, opera mini 4)

The "Ovi Store" has complete crap on it.
*logs in to ovi*
Recommended for me:
Smell Scanner
Opera Mini
Snaptu
High speed 3d free (slow as anything and graphics really suck)
Office games challenge
Paradise city
Zumzum
Locago
Letters to Juliet - EPKTrailer
Trivial pursuit

Page2:
Mostly rubbish, has trapster but that doesn't actually work on my phone.

The Ovi store would have worked better if Nokia phones were not hacked. With a hacked Nokia you can download just about any app.

[Rouxenator]

LOL ! Yeah, Symbian is so primitive it had USB mass storage mode for years now - only coming out in iPhone OS4.

[Rouxenator]

Ok Roux that last poast just blew any shred of credibility I thought you had. "An old person reading stuff so you are special". What does that even mean?

It means that you went for the easy way out of that argument ;)

[assagai]

Easy way? Dude you are becoming less coherent with every post!

[Rouxenator]

Easy way? Dude you are becoming less coherent with every post!
I meant instead of focusing on the important part of the post you went for the easy bit. The rest of that put pretty much puts apple to shame (although not as good as the guys at Adobe does).

[news24]

I used W950 with symbian, and it sucked, I can't even compare it to my Omnia. Roux is a nokia fanboi, you can't win against that.

How long has symbian been around? iPhone OS? Which is the better os NOW? Don't tell me about a year ago, talk about now...

[Synaesthesia]

The iPhone only has 200k apps of which most users install 2 or 20 on their iphone. Symbian has an internet full of apps. The iphones uses inferior hardware compared to symbian devices and needs to be jailbroken before it becomes remotely useful. Therefore you cannot call symbian primitive compared against the iphone. Appletude is a serious illness and you seem to suffer from it.
Nope, most Nokia and other cellphone users have 1 App on their phone, Opera Mini.

[Rouxenator]

Actually, Opera Mini comes pre-installed on Series40 (Non Symbian, Non Smartphone) phones. Most users of Symbian smartphones opt for Opera Mobile instead since it is an native Sybmian app and it is better than any other mobile browser on earth.

[Synaesthesia]

Most users of Symbian smartphones opt for Opera Mobile instead since it is an native Sybmian app and it is better than any other mobile browser on earth.
Well I tried it on my cousin's Sony Xperia X1 and I thought it was great but I still think Safari on the iPhone is better, (and the Android browser).

[Rouxenator]

Understandable yes. Some people need less options and whom better to take away "unnecessary options" from them than the Americans.

[Synaesthesia]

Why do you think Opera Mobile is better? Here's why I think Mobile Safari/Android browser is better.

Speed: Safari is always running, so it opens instantly, with your current pages already displayed. Opera Mobile takes a few seconds to load. Safari also renders webpages faster and scrolls/zooms much faster.

Safari also renders pages correctly much more often than Opera in my experience. The interface is also way better in my opinion. eg. the double tap to zoom is faster and more reliable than the Opera zoom.

Lastly there are thousands of websites optimized for the iPhone which really makes it a lot better. Eg. Gmail, Facebook

[Rouxenator]

Why Opera Mobile is better :
1) It is not from Apple.
2) Its a cross platform browser. (Steve will cry)
3) It has flash support built it. (Steve will really cry)

BTW - it is impossible for Safari to "renders pages correctly much more" since Opera Mobile has an acid3 test score of 100/100.
Perhaps you just prefer looking at pages on inferior 320x480 screens while the rest of the world uses widescreen 640x360 or better displays?

[Synaesthesia]

Well not being from Apple or being cross-platform don't really make it a better browser.

Opera Mobile only has support for Flash lite, not Flash.

Safari also gets 100/100 on Acid3. It has the fastest Javascript execution of any mobile browser.

As for the screen if you compare an iPhone and a 5800XM you will see the iPhone is better - it's larger and brighter and browsing the web really does work better.

But hey! I'm obviously not gonna convince you!

[Rouxenator]

Seeing the current press releases from Apple it is a good thing if you use software that are not from them. Anti-trust lawsuits are imminent and they are not as large as M$ so I doubt they will handle it as well as M$ did.

Supporting flash lite is still better than supporting flash nada.

Cool, so it also gets 100/100 - they are thus equal in rendering standards.

OK, so basically a 50" HD Ready Plasma screen (1280x720) is much better than a 42" Full HD LCD (1920x1080) because it is "bigger and brighter".... ohkay then :whistle:

[cerebus]

Why Opera Mobile is better :
1) It is not from Apple.
2) Its a cross platform browser. (Steve will cry)
3) It has flash support built it. (Steve will really cry)

Would you just shut up....


On the brightness vs resolution argument... I had a 5800 AND an n97 and the iPhone's screen beats both of then hands down. The quality of 5800's screen is just underwhelming... colours don't stand out in any way. It's not bad, just not great either. Adding a few more pixels doesn't mean anything - my old Dell Axim could do full VGA (vs Nokia's res) but it's killed by today's screens. Now there are AMOLED screens out there that will beat an iphone's, but outdoors legibility is awful.

[Synaesthesia]

Well that's just my opinion, and like I said, I'm not gonna convince you!

[Synaesthesia]

Opera Mobile certainly is a great browser, no doubt about it. To get a better experience I should probably try it on something newer more high-powered than a Sony Xperia X1.

[Rouxenator]

No :p but you can always try. At least your response contained some worthwhile attempts. "just shut up" is like saying "click click click.... oops, outa ammo!"

[cerebus]

No :p but you can always try. At least your response contained some worthwhile attempts. "just shut up" is like saying "click click click.... oops, outa ammo!"

So is 'It is not from Apple'. Tit for tat.

[Synaesthesia]

No :p but you can always try. At least your response contained some worthwhile attempts. "just shut up" is like saying "click click click.... oops, outa ammo!"
Well I thought I had some good points, eg. Faster. The copy and paste on the iPhone is killer too. But don't take my word for it! Best thing to do is to check it out for yourself.

[Rouxenator]

Sure thing. If I have the need for browsing in 320x480 with no flash support and no ability to switch to other running application I will most definitely give the iPhone a try.

[Synaesthesia]

Way to keep an open mind there.

[cerebus]

You mean you've never even tried iPhone?

[Rouxenator]

I've never tried many things before - partly because I already have something better and partly because some things (like contracting squaids) should not be tried at all.

[cerebus]

Pah. Come back and talk when you've sat down for any length of time with an iPhone. Until then I think I'll refrain from answering your ill-informed cliched fanboyism.

[Rouxenator]

Dude, the whole try it before you deny it or lock before you mock principal is flawed. The iPhone (and apple) is not the answer to everything. Sure it satisfies most op the people but some people are more demanding and evolved (like yours truly) and needs something to suit their right-of-the-median standards.

[shaddowdragon]

No roux you don't get it... Symbian has NO DECENT APPS. They do not exist.

My experience of trying to read ebooks on iPhone/iTouch:

1: Download Stanza
2: Sync books
3: Read......

My experience of trying to read ebooks on N97/5800XM:

1: Download Mobipocket
2: Realize it isn't compatible with s60v5
3: Rootle around the forums
4: Find obscure Russian app
5: Download.... certificate expired
6: Search around for updated certificate model that doesn't require me to root phone because I know what a nightmare that will be
7: Find copy
8: Try to sync books
9: Realize it's only compatible with 1 ebook format
10: Download format converter
11: Re-sync books to N97
12: Still won't read book
13: Give up in disgust and sell phone.

That's the reality of me trying to get to grips with your lovely Symbian last week. Works great on candybar dumbphones, sucks horribly as a smartphone OS.

rofl, except I never learnt, have N97 now and one book works. we should design a phone and have it made in China; throw in all the features you want.

[Synaesthesia]

Dude, the whole try it before you deny it or lock before you mock principal is flawed.
Yeah totally. :rolleyes:

[cerebus]

Dude, the whole try it before you deny it or lock before you mock principal is flawed. The iPhone (and apple) is not the answer to everything. Sure it satisfies most op the people but some people are more demanding and evolved (like yours truly) and needs something to suit their right-of-the-median standards.

You have no idea what your standards are because YOU'VE NEVER TRIED ANYTHING BUT SYMBIAN. You just formed a list of reasons not to want one based on some vague stereotypes of Apple pundits....

[assagai]

Roux even your beloved gsmarena heroes review the phones based on a hands-on. Maybe you could take a hint from that... Don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you don't have experience. Its a pretty simple concept.

[Rouxenator]

Yeah, well, I let them get their hands dirty and contract squaids from phones made in a chinese sweat shop.

[cerebus]

See the thing is you're welcome to your opinion but you always end up fartbombing otherwise fruitful threads with your nonsense... Anyways you're fast on the way to becoming first person on my ignore list so far.

[assagai]

Yeah, well, I let them get their hands dirty and contract squaids from phones made in a chinese sweat shop.

so i guess that's the oft-touted (by you) easy way out.
Thing is roux, you have a bunch of contradictory double standards and you make up the rules as you go along. Like arguing with add kid who can't remember what he said 5 minutes ago.
Won't be engaging with you on any of these subjects anymore, it's FRUITless

/out

[Rouxenator]

Seriously though - it makes no difference to me if you ignore me or think I am the leaders of clan Troll from the planet Trollanus - really, go ahead and ignore me if it makes your iPhone vibrate with more vigor.
This thread is about the unethical and un-competitive behavior of Apple and what reactions that provoked from much bigger industry leaders, like HTC and Adobe (and in other news Nokia).

Sure - the iPhone has an amazingly fluid UI and yes, it is very popular. I am also pretty sure 99% of the people out there (include me) will enjoy the fluid UI and ease of use the iPhone has. No one is disputing that so don't get all defensive on it. Just remember that it does not change anything about the bad practices of Apple nor does it change the grossly overlooked holes in the spec sheet (yes that does matter) of the iPhone.

Pfft, threaten me with "ignore list" - I write essays starting with "Dear Recycle bin" - that's how deranged I am :p

[cerebus]

The problem is that for every negative point about Apple there's an equally valid negative about every phone manufacturer. Nokia's last flagship phones were complete disasters. They focused on the spec sheet - as you're doing - and ignored UI and apps - which actually matter far more to the average consumer. Now they're trying to get back with ^3, and I have to reserve judgement till I've tried it, but I had such bad experiences with Symbian that I'm totally put off them. iPhone isn't perfect but it is the best phone I've personally ever used.

Now see...sometimes you sound like a total troll, and sometimes you sound quite rational in your points. Assagai is pretty spot on..

[Rouxenator]

I would not go that far, I mean, 5+ megapixel cameras does not really have a negative side to them? Nor does the ability to send files and music via bluetooth? Some Nokia flagship phones have been a little over hyped yes, but calling them a complete disaster - that hardly explains their popularity. True, some of them are a little rushed and early firmwares are often less pleasant to work with - but you can always apply the "wait till SP1 is out" approach to them and then you end up with brilliant hardware running brilliant software.
Just as RIM is fixing up their UI, so does Nokia. Their UI is very sleek and friendly these days - plus it is constantly improving. Basically it boils down to what matter most - if absolute ease of use and UI appeal is all that matters then you really cannot go wrong with the iPhone. If this like flexibility, the ethics of the company behind it, product line options, open platform and so on matters then Symbian is a pretty good contender.

[Synaesthesia]

You should really use the iPhone before judging it, as with anything. Speed matters and responsiveness matters, and ease of use matters a lot. It all lets you do things faster and easier!

[cerebus]

http://gizmodo.com/5308440/nokia-n97-review-nokia-is-doomed

I'd call that a disaster.

[Synaesthesia]

http://gizmodo.com/5308440/nokia-n97-review-nokia-is-doomed

I'd call that a disaster.
Oh dear. Where's Meamo? come on nokia!

[rorz0r]

Screw the iphone... Try a motorolo droid, htc desire or se x10 rather...

[rorz0r]

Oh dear. Where's Meamo? come on nokia!

It merged with moblin and became meego. ie. release is imminent.

[Rouxenator]

N97 before V30 was crap - agreed. But remember, Nokia has an extensive range of phones, they are not a one pony race - and in their portfolio there are other phones that worked well at the stage when the N97 was still in its infancy.

[Synaesthesia]

They better come with some newer and better software soon, the mobile space is getting very crowded. Soon we'll have iPhone OS 4.0, Android 2.2, Palm Pre + HP together, Windows Mobile 7 all competing for the smartphone space.

What would be cool is a nokia phone running an Intel atom @ 32nm with Meego.

[cerebus]

The problem Nokia currently faces is that there are a TON of smartphones other than the iPhone for users who do actually want the features that iPhone lacks. And any one of them will wipe the floor with any current Nokia phone. HTC is constantly refining their Android stables and Sense UI... the Legend, Desire and Evo 4G are incredibly full featured phones..overwhelmingly so. Then you have Samsung Galaxy, Sony Xperia 2, Acer Liquid, Toshiba G01, and so on and so on.

Nokia simply doesn't have the software to compete as a bona fide smartphone, so all that's left to them is to go for either the N97 approach - chuck everything in and hope it sticks - or the 5800xm/x6 approach - make a cheap, cheerful media phone with no pretensions to offering the same functionality as a real smartphone. Problem with the first approach is that it was rendered obsolete three years ago when the iPhone debuted; whereas with the second approach, technological depreciation means that iphone 3g is fast approaching the zero pay-in mark, at which point why would anyone for the same money prefer a Nokia phone to an iPhone?

[Rouxenator]

Strange that for the last 10 years people have been predicting the downfall of Nokia (and Microsoft for that matter). While you do have some valid points like the iPhone 4G is coming out, Android is on phones and Sony is making an Xperia 2 - the rest is just the same "here comes doom and gloom for nokia" nonsense that has been blown out of the water (yearly) if you look at their market presence. That is purely because the package as a whole (hardware and software) is still better than the rest, and so is the product line up.

[cerebus]

Which part of their product lineup is better than the rest? What exactly does Nokia have to compete on the level of its competitors' (HTC, Apple, Samsung, Acer etc) smartphones? Nobody's disputing that they make great phones at a very massmarket level, and they will continue to excel at that, but at the level you're talking about, comparing the 5800xm to the iPhone is like comparing a Tazz to a Z4 and then complaining because the Z4 only has 2 seats.

[Rouxenator]

In that case, the Z4 has a lot less than only -2 seats. It has a bigger window but you can see less detail through it. You need to chip it before it will drive on all roads and you can switch gears while having the radio on and having a conversation with your passenger. The Z4 will not allow access to the boot for any luggage, only special branded luggage that you are only allowed to load at one predefined garage. You will not be able to load anything from someones else's boot directly into the boot of the Z4. Your passengers must all be preselected and cleared by BMW before you can take them for a ride in your Z4. Passengers and luggage are not allowed to be flashy at all. And lastly, to some people you will still look like a p035 in 'n BMW ;)

[cerebus]

Doesn't matter, point remains.

[Rouxenator]

It sure does. Shame, poor BMW drivers, they are always called names...

[thed33p]

Shouldn't you be playing in the the Symbian sub-forum? Oh wait....