"Information Manuals"

[kaspaas]

I noticed that each and every website now needs a "manual to access information".

I also noticed that such a service is available at R1850 per shot from a well known bunch of legal eagles.

I often wonder who invents all the money spinning laws. This little nuisance law must move millions of working capital from SMME's to the pockets of the legal fraternity.

I don't hold a high regard in general of attorneys after I've done IT support in such an office. I chucked them as I have a conscience and won't easily work for attorneys again.

I won't be surprised if these people will stoop down the gutter and rent people to inspect websites and report those that don't comply so they can generate fear and fees by keeping the poor guys out of jail and selling them the required documents.

[dominic]

I noticed that each and every website now needs a "manual to access information".

I also noticed that such a service is available at R1850 per shot from a well known bunch of legal eagles.

I often wonder who invents all the money spinning laws. This little nuisance law must move millions of working capital from SMME's to the pockets of the legal fraternity.

I don't hold a high regard in general of attorneys after I've done IT support in such an office. I chucked them as I have a conscience and won't easily work for attorneys again.

I won't be surprised if these people will stoop down the gutter and rent people to inspect websites and report those that don't comply so they can generate fear and fees by keeping the poor guys out of jail and selling them the required documents.
kaspaas - not difficult to pick up that you have had a bad experience with lawyers and you are no doubt far from being alone although there are rumours that not all of them are interested in ripping you off

as regards the manuals - they are required under the Promotion of Access to Information Act No 2 of 2000 which, imho, is one of the better laws we have...essentially it allows a person (the requester) to request information from another person/company/govt dept where such information is required in order to allow the requester to protect or exercise his or her rights. Examples - it has been used by unsuccessful bidders in the arms deal to get information out of the government; iot could also be used by an employee facing disciplinary action to get info out of the employer

SA is afaik the only country in the world where this right to get information is extended beyond government to private businesses....i think this is a good thing

now i also understand that small businesses in this country are screwed as regards all the laws that they are required to comply with but we also have a tendency to too easily accept that we have to pay lawyers to do this - it is in fact a reasonably simple exercise to do the manual yourself (see next post) and to organise all the bits of information which your business holds at the same time

it is also true that the Act has been amended so that there are potential criminal penalties of a fine or imprisonment up to 2 years for failure to comply...this does not mean that if you do not do it you will go to jail (imo it will be some time before anyone even gets prosecuted and then it will be a matter of paying a fine if the matter goes that far)...i am also not a fan of scare tactics but that is a personal thing

if you do not feel up to doing it yourself then there are service providers such as lawyers and accountants that will provide the manual for a small CC/ partnership/ sole proprietorship or even a pty ltd for somewhere between R350 and R1 0000...you really should not pay more

[dominic]

6 steps to drafting a Promotion of Access to Information Act Manual

1. Download the Section 51 Manual Template from www.sahrc.org.za (look for the PAIA section)

2. Download Appendix A (Request Form) & Appendix B (Schedule of Fees) . You will see that these must be hyperlinked to from the marked place in the Template.

3. Go through the template and fill in the easy answers. Where the answers are not immediately apparent make a note of who you need to speak to in order to clarify these – usually your accountant can be of some assistance.

4. Go through your information records, especially those to do with management, employment and employees, and make sure that you have specified these. Remember that just because a business record has been specified it does not mean that you will have to make this information available to anyone who requests it if there are valid reasons for not doing so.

5. Once you have completed a draft circulate a copy to all decision-makers in your business and ask if they have any comments.

6. Once you are satisfied that the manual is complete then:

a. Place a copy on your web site if you have one. Create a link to it from the home page which is clearly noticeable to visitors to your site. You can call the link “Access to Information Manual” or “Section 51 Manual”. Make sure the link is reasonably noticeable.

b. Send a copy to the PAIA unit of the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC):

The South African Human Rights Commission:

PAIA Unit
The Research and Documentation Department
Postal address: Private Bag 2700
Houghton
2041

Telephone: +27 11 484-8300
Fax: +27 11 484-0582
Website: www.sahrc.org.za
E-mail: PAIA@sahrc.org.za

Do not expect any acknowledgement of receipt.

c. Keep a hard copy at your head office and other major places of business – it must be available for inspection during ordinary office hours.

d. If you are a member of an umbrella organisation (e.g. an industry representative body with a code of conduct which is binding on its members) then a copy has to be submitted to the controlling body.

Note that there is nothing illegal in doing some browsing and seeing how other companies have gone about drafting their manuals - just don't copy them.

...do some googling - there are a number of useful simple guides as to how the Act works and what to do in the event that you receive an application under the Act

_____
if there are any queries put them in this thread and i will happily answer them

[stu]

What a guy !!!!

have you seen my herd ?

[MaryJane]

SA is afaik the only country in the world where this right to get information is extended beyond government to private businesses....i think this is a good thing


I agree with dominic.

kaspaas, not all lawyers are sharks. I have been in the legal industry for just under 6 years and have learnt that not all lawyers are unethical and out to steal your money. They provide a service and get paid accordingly. You study for a minimum of 4 years and then do two years of articles and see if you are going to charge a small fee for your time.

[kaspaas]

I agree with dominic.

kaspaas, not all lawyers are sharks.

A pity the socalled decent lawyers are too scared to weed out the sharks...

I agree that if a decent professional service is rendered, it deserves a decent professional fee.

Yes, there are good ethical lawyers, but ... I don't know who are good and who are bad. From experience: Avoid a lawyer!

[MaryJane]

What a guy !!!!

have you seen my herd ?

WTF?


A pity the socalled decent lawyers are too scared to weed out the sharks...


So true kaspaas. If a customer has a complaint, they should take it to the Law Society.

[pookfuzz]

I fail to understand why a website would need a manual. From what I can tell this is about one entity keeping information about another entity. If I keep no info about people who visit my site I shouldn’t need a manual since there would be nothing for them to query if they wanted to know what info I had about them.

I also agree with kaspass, avoid lawyers. I am sure there are many good lawyers out there with ethics and an uncompromised moral compass, but you just don't hear about those sort much. My bias is shaped by the constant news stories where lawyers are used by companies to harass/scare/bully people, delay/subvert justice and push cases which have little merit or are utterly frivolous. I get the feeling the only reason we need lawyers is because of lawyers.

Lawyers are the reason law is so convoluted and generally beyond the deciphering abilities of normal people, I do not thank them for it.

[dominic]

I fail to understand why a website would need a manual. From what I can tell this is about one entity keeping information about another entity. If I keep no info about people who visit my site I shouldn’t need a manual since there would be nothing for them to query if they wanted to know what info I had about them.

I also agree with kaspass, avoid lawyers. I am sure there are many good lawyers out there with ethics and an uncompromised moral compass, but you just don't hear about those sort much. My bias is shaped by the constant news stories where lawyers are used by companies to harass/scare/bully people, delay/subvert justice and push cases which have little merit or are utterly frivolous. I get the feeling the only reason we need lawyers is because of lawyers.

Lawyers are the reason law is so convoluted and generally beyond the deciphering abilities of normal people, I do not thank them for it.
consider the fact that a lawyer has put up a 6 step process to do it yourself...hopefully in non-legal, non-convoluted language which anyone who has an hour to spare could understand and implement

whether you like it or not fact remains that it is required - it sucks to have yet another thing to worry about...agreed...but it is far better to see it as an opportunity to get all the bits of info which your business has in order...chances are most small businesses don;t know what they have and some organisation is always helpful to efficiency and productivity, i.e. one of those bits of housecleaning that we never seem to get around to

[dominic]

What a guy !!!!

have you seen my herd ?o/t and between us he has a thing about goats

[crbuys]

Hallo Kaspaas et al,

I'm glad to see a discussion about PAIA manuals on the forum... I'm also glad about the positive and negative reactions to our banner ads on this forum, ITWeb and elsewhere - it means that we've succeeded in one of our main goals, informing the public about the requirement and stimulating debate.

Don't shoot the messenger. We did not write the Act. We actually strongly disagree with the fact that government requires private sector resources such as costs and time to implement the provisions of the Act. We know that everybody consider these manuals a nuisance.

We cannot change the law. What we can do, is helping businesses comply. Unlike most other law firms, we've automated the whole PAIA process. Our tool allows people to create their manuals from anywhere at any time via any communications tool, faster and more cost effective than any of our competitors. We force nobody to use it. Like all other businesses we advertise it.

Consider the following:

• No other law firm took any steps to address public frustration with the Act’s requirements. We did by automating the whole process.
• No other law firm launched a national campaign on websites, blogs, radio and newspapers to inform the public about the requirements and the deadline. We did.
• The online automation allowed us to offer the service at the lowest rate available. Yes, businesses can prepare their own manuals at no or very low cost. But our tool provides for much more than that. We also lodge the manuals, convert the manuals into web-ready format, we provide assistance in placing the manuals on websites. Should the contact details of a business change, our tool allows for immediate updates to the web versions and the Human Rights Commission. Doing it yourself will take considerable time, our tool requires less than two minutes.
• Imagine how people with disabilities struggle to prepare these manuals. Our tool allows blind people and those with other disabilities to create their manuals. A blind lawyer from Welkom phoned us to thank us, saying nobody else addresses their disabilities.
• Our PAIA tool is also totally end-user neutral allowing the creation of manuals via the Web, email, telephone, sms and even IM.

Our marketing campaign is actually a tongue in the cheek comment about the ridiculous prison sentence. Obviously some didn’t get it.

Check it out at: http://www.buys.co.za/paia.asp.

The “scare tactics” media clip can be downloaded from: http://www.buys.co.za/downloads_detail.asp?ID=21

See also:

http://www.litmags.co.za/articles.asp?id=1958



Regards,

[mbs]

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=258499&postcount=10

[Kei]

Tell me, do I need this nonsense if my private website or any of my websites are located in the USA and do not have .co.za domains?

[crbuys]

Hi all,

Regarding MBS' response above and his reference to the free service on the website of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) - just keep in mind that the HRC is funded with taxpayer's money. We are not. If we develop DIY tool or advertise on forums like these, we need to finance it ourselves.

Bye,

[AcidRaZor]

Dude... a blind lawyer, now THAT is justice :D

[article seven]

1. Download the Section 51 Manual Template from www.sahrc.org.za (look for the PAIA section)

and do what with it?


2. Download Appendix A (Request Form) & Appendix B (Schedule of Fees) . You will see that these must be hyperlinked to from the marked place in the Template.

cant find neither of the forms


3. Go through the template and fill in the easy answers. Where the answers are not immediately apparent make a note of who you need to speak to in order to clarify these – usually your accountant can be of some assistance.

where is the template


6. Once you are satisfied that the manual is complete then:

a. Place a copy on your web site if you have one. Create a link to it from the home page which is clearly noticeable to visitors to your site. You can call the link “Access to Information Manual” or “Section 51 Manual”. Make sure the link is reasonably noticeable.

Will a link titled PAIA be satisfactory?

[dominic]

and do what with it?

cant find neither of the forms

where is the template

Will a link titled PAIA be satisfactory?

how to make it -
http://www.sahrc.org.za/section_51_manuals.htm -

how to use it - http://www.sahrc.org.za/sahrc_cms/publish/cat_index_40.shtml#11

it is not rocket science

link to PAIA is fine but the link must be reasonably noticeable on the web site