DA promises to fight for media freedom

[rpm]

We will fight for media freedom: DA (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/general/14206-will-fight-for-media-freedom.html)

Democratic Alliance leader Helen Zille has vowed to fight perceived attempts by the ruling party to undermine media freedom all the way to the Constitutional Court.

[copacetic]

Go go Godzille!

[MadCat]

She has my support, nobody should be told what they can and cant say/report. If that's the case why did we leave apartheid? Freedom of Speech!

[davemc]

Would you settle for: Freedom of factual speech?

[mezu]

She has my support, nobody should be told what they can and cant say/report. If that's the case why did we leave apartheid? Freedom of Speech!

+1 Absolutely :mad:

[JungleBoy]

She has my support, nobody should be told what they can and cant say/report. If that's the case why did we leave apartheid? Freedom of Speech!

What about
1. propaganda for war
2. inciting (encouraging) people to use violence
3. hate speech
????

Next time old Malema shoots his mouth off please remember that it is his "Freedom of Speech"

[Bizkit87]

What about
1. propaganda for war
2. inciting (encouraging) people to use violence
3. hate speech
????

Next time old Malema shoots his mouth off please remember that it is his "Freedom of Speech"

how is any of those 3 things the same as controlling what the media can write about? :eek:

lemme guess, you think this is a good thing? lets only see in the news what the anc wants us to see?

[Zenbaas]

how is any of those 3 things the same as controlling what the media can write about? :eek:

lemme guess, you think this is a good thing? lets only see in the news what the anc wants us to see?

Don't worry. He is just trying to protect the anc in his own way by ignoring the actual issues being raised here. :rolleyes:

[grayston]

Don't worry. He is just trying to protect the anc in his own way by ignoring the actual issues being raised here. :rolleyes:

Quite correct.

In fact, if the ANC came out tomorrow and told everyone that whites were the master race and we should all bow down and worship them, ANC supporters would be kneeling in front of white people before the day was out.

ANC says it, ANC supporters believe it. End of story.

[spiff]

so the government does not like been shown up as ignorant arsholes in the press all the time or having their excessive salaries & corruption deals exposed to the tax paying public - so lets gag the press then??? guess that will solve THEIR problem!! f@#$ing retards!!

[Djtay]

lulz

When I think about the DA, the pic with the cat looking into the mirror and seeing a lion always comes to mind.

[DreamKing]

Quite correct.

In fact, if the ANC came out tomorrow and told everyone that whites were the master race and we should all bow down and worship them, ANC supporters would be kneeling in front of white people before the day was out.

ANC says it, ANC supporters believe it. End of story.

+100000 :D

[Bizkit87]

lulz

When I think about the DA, the pic with the cat looking into the mirror and seeing a lion always comes to mind.

yes, the DA is quite the David here in this David vs Goliath fight, isn't it?

[Osiris85]

lulz

When I think about the DA, the pic with the cat looking into the mirror and seeing a lion always comes to mind.

When I think of the DA, THIS picture comes to mind :D

http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JSpbgoKp8LA/S3xJsU4UXEI/AAAAAAAAIwE/q4m95CqJTmM/s400/****_you_400.jpg&imgrefurl=http://why-we-are-white-refugees.blogspot.com/2010/02/****-corruption-da-mp-suspended-kill.html&usg=__3HNh53kBVzr-tJ0HSfglo9m4oDc=&h=400&w=319&sz=45&hl=en&start=40&tbnid=KaeXbt7B5ROEGM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danc%2Bcorruption%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D587%2 6tbs%3Disch:10%2C1176&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1089&vpy=140&dur=118&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=205&ty=92&ei=_r5WTPWJNtGUOOfj5Z4O&page=3&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:40&biw=1366&bih=587

[AstroTurf]

lulz

When I think about the DA, the pic with the cat looking into the mirror and seeing a lion always comes to mind.

ROFL to true :D

[Djtay]

yes, the DA is quite the David here in this David vs Goliath fight, isn't it?

Indeed. I think you need to remind Zille of that though.

[DreamKing]

When I think of the DA, THIS picture comes to mind :D

http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JSpbgoKp8LA/S3xJsU4UXEI/AAAAAAAAIwE/q4m95CqJTmM/s400/****_you_400.jpg&imgrefurl=http://why-we-are-white-refugees.blogspot.com/2010/02/****-corruption-da-mp-suspended-kill.html&usg=__3HNh53kBVzr-tJ0HSfglo9m4oDc=&h=400&w=319&sz=45&hl=en&start=40&tbnid=KaeXbt7B5ROEGM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danc%2Bcorruption%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1366%26bih%3D587%2 6tbs%3Disch:10%2C1176&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=1089&vpy=140&dur=118&hovh=251&hovw=200&tx=205&ty=92&ei=_r5WTPWJNtGUOOfj5Z4O&page=3&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:40&biw=1366&bih=587

page not found! :confused:

[porchrat]

Would you settle for: Freedom of factual speech?

Who decides what is "factual" and what isn't?

[Osiris85]

page not found! :confused:

aw crap, anyway its the picture of that little dog looking at that BIG dog and saying "Fsck you!"

[DreamKing]

lulz

When I think about the DA, the pic with the cat looking into the mirror and seeing a lion always comes to mind.

When I think about the ANC, the pic with the idiot looking into the mirror and seeing a smart guy always comes to mind

:D

[Bizkit87]

Indeed. I think you need to remind Zille of that though.

you do remember what happened to Goliath, don't you?

So tell me, what do you think of a government controlling news papers? do you think its part of being in a democracy?

[Nerfherder]

What about
1. propaganda for war
2. inciting (encouraging) people to use violence
3. hate speech
????

Next time old Malema shoots his mouth off please remember that it is his "Freedom of Speech"

Its not that you should just be allowed to say what ever you want... its that if you do say something illigal or antagonistic then you should be taken to task for it.

The ANC are trying to cut down on the negative publicity towards them in the media, that I find really funny. They seem to think that the negative publicity is being driven by the media, its being driven by the PEOPLE... even their own voters.

The media just reports it. If they lie then take them up on spesific incidents, in a court of law.

[R13...]

you do remember what happened to Goliath, don't you?

So tell me, what do you think of a government controlling news papers? do you think its part of being in a democracy?

The bill is bad news but I think some of your hysteria is borne out of ignorance. Do you, for example, know what it is in this new bill that the media disagrees with?

[grayston]

+100000 :D

Before you get too smiley mate, may I just remind you that "DA says it, DreamKing believes it" is also a perfectly valid statement.

Don't think your blind support of certain political parties is okay just because you think they're doing a good job...

[Nod]

The bill is bad news but I think some of your hysteria is borne out of ignorance. Do you, for example, know what it is in this new bill that the media disagrees with?


"If passed, the Protection of Information Bill will criminalise investigative journalism," Zille said of the draft act described by the Freedom of Expression Institute as a bid to cover up wrongdoing and silence criticism of government.

No more Carte Blanche type programs, no more articles on the newest tender scandal, since state tenders will simply be declared "secret".

[The_Librarian]

The bill is bad news but I think some of your hysteria is borne out of ignorance. Do you, for example, know what it is in this new bill that the media disagrees with?

If this bill get passed, then you may not tweet or blog about their "mistakes".

[DreamKing]

Before you get too smiley mate, may I just remind you that "DA says it, DreamKing believes it" is also a perfectly valid statement.

Don't think your blind support of certain political parties is okay just because you think they're doing a good job...

:confused:

[DreamKing]

Before you get too smiley mate, may I just remind you that "DA says it, DreamKing believes it" is also a perfectly valid statement.

Don't think your blind support of certain political parties is okay just because you think they're doing a good job...

it will never happen!

[Nerfherder]

If this bill get passed, then you may not tweet or blog about their "mistakes".

I think its going to especially target things like that.

[porchrat]

it will never happen!

That is exactly what the DA said.

[The_Librarian]

I think its going to especially target things like that.

Next up is repression of speech.

[grayston]

If this bill get passed, then you may not tweet or blog about their "mistakes".

Not true. You WILL be able to publish any information about the ANC that the ANC allows you to see. :p

[joelus]

It's about not being allowed to report on classified information. It does not criminalise investigative journalism. It is not about government controlling newspapers.
(I don't agree with the bill by the way but I do think people (Zille) are misrepresenting what it's about and are a bit hysterical about it)

I think it would be good though if it is challenged in the constitutional court since the state insists it is constitutional, so we'll see.

[JungleBoy]

how is any of those 3 things the same as controlling what the media can write about? :eek:

lemme guess, you think this is a good thing? lets only see in the news what the anc wants us to see?

I don't think that legislation that is aimed at imposing tougher sanctions against reporters who get their facts wrong is necessarily a bad thing. Do you?
I'm all for media freedom...but having said that I also don't want to be fed lies and propaganda. With this current system of self regulation a newspaper prints lies in big bold letters on page 1 and when they are caught out all we get is an obscure retraction in very small print on page 2. I think the sanctions in such cases should include a stiff penalty for the journalist concerned, an even bigger article retracting the previous lies, an explanation as to how they got their facts twisted, plus an unconditional apology.

[R13...]

If this bill get passed, then you may not tweet or blog about their "mistakes".


No more Carte Blanche type programs, no more articles on the newest tender scandal, since state tenders will simply be declared "secret".

I didn't ask what Zille said the bill will do. I want to know what's in the bill itself - not third hand interpretations of the bill.
Just as I thought none of you have actually read about the contents of the bill itself, you're just going with the mob.

[porchrat]

It's about not being allowed to report on classified information.

That isn't the problem. The problem is who decides what is and isn't "in the interests of national security". That is a pretty broad definition.

[DreamKing]

"DA says it, DreamKing believes it".


it will never happen!

(it = DA says it, DreamKing believes it)


That is exactly what the DA said.
(??????)

:confused:

what is the problem today? I don't understand what you guys are trying to say???????

[Nod]

I didn't ask what Zille said the bill will do. I want to know what's in the bill itself - not third hand interpretations of the bill.
Just as I thought none of you have actually read about the contents of the bill itself, you're just going with the mob.

http://www.parliament.gov.za/live/commonrepository/Processed/20091112/84004_1.pdf
http://www.fxi.org.za/content/view/198/1/

[porchrat]

(it = DA says it, DreamKing believes it)


(??????)

:confused:

what is the problem today? I don't understand what you guys are trying to say???????

I was just messing with you :p

[grayston]

(it = DA says it, DreamKing believes it)


(??????)

:confused:

what is the problem today? I don't understand what you guys are trying to say???????

That you should try and be a little less one-sided.

We can all agree that the ANC is a pathetic, worthless piece of evil trash. But that doesn't automatically mean the ANC's opponents are squeaky-clean.

[Flanders]

It's about not being allowed to report on classified information. It does not criminalise investigative journalism. It is not about government controlling newspapers.
(I don't agree with the bill by the way but I do think people (Zille) are misrepresenting what it's about and are a bit hysterical about it)

I think it would be good though if it is challenged in the constitutional court since the state insists it is constitutional, so we'll see.

I wonder what government information could be deemed as classified in this day and age in SA. In the old days I can almost understand why this sort of thing was implemented (yes, naturally it was absued) but there is one huge difference and that is that SA was at war at the time. Plenty of classified information needing protection during war time. But now? Maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious but I just don't see it.

[Nerfherder]

I didn't ask what Zille said the bill will do. I want to know what's in the bill itself - not third hand interpretations of the bill.
Just as I thought none of you have actually read about the contents of the bill itself, you're just going with the mob.

Fair enough but I think its aways the interpretation of these things that is the problem. Like for example, the new laws my say that they are all about proctecting confidential information... but then who decideds what is confidential ?

[The_Librarian]

http://www.parliament.gov.za/live/commonrepository/Processed/20091112/84004_1.pdf
http://www.fxi.org.za/content/view/198/1/

Read the parly one first.

Then the FXI one (if you're still awake).

Not good.

[joelus]

I wonder what government information could be deemed as classified in this day and age in SA. In the old days I can almost understand why this sort of thing was implemented (yes, naturally it was absued) but there is one huge difference and that is that SA was at war at the time. Plenty of classified information needing protection during war time. But now? Maybe I'm missing something glaringly obvious but I just don't see it.

Well, for example, if the state security intends to take down a drug cartel or a human trafficking cartel they would want the information about their plans to remain secret. If a journalist somehow finds out and publishes the details, thereby tipping the cartels about what is going to happen, thus defeating the whole operation, that would be covered by this.

[R13...]

Fair enough but I think its aways the interpretation of these things that is the problem. Like for example, the new laws my say that they are all about proctecting confidential information... but then who decideds what is confidential ?

Glad you see my point, people here are given to the sheep mentality ironically accusing ANC supporters of the same behaviour. South Africa's daily journalism is very poor and they spend a lot of time reporting bull****.

You should see Chris Barron's "So many questions" of yesterday's Sunday Times for a nice summary of the issues in contention and I suspect most of the Zille sheep here don't even read a newspaper and listen to 5FM and the like for their "news" and analysis.

[VJB 449]

The bill is bad news but I think some of your hysteria is borne out of ignorance. Do you, for example, know what it is in this new bill that the media disagrees with?

We don't need to know - Zille has told us.
Zille = good
ANC = bad.
(my post is as usefull as yours in the context of this thread)

[joelus]

Fair enough but I think its aways the interpretation of these things that is the problem. Like for example, the new laws my say that they are all about proctecting confidential information... but then who decideds what is confidential ?

Ministry of State Security I guess

[grayston]

Well, for example, if the state security intends to take down a drug cartel or a human trafficking cartel they would want the information about their plans to remain secret. If a journalist somehow finds out and publishes the details, thereby tipping the cartels about what is going to happen, thus defeating the whole operation, that would be covered by this.

Quite true. What would also be covered is anything else the government doesn't want to be published. That's why the bill is dangerous.

[DreamKing]

That you should try and be a little less one-sided.

We can all agree that the ANC is a pathetic, worthless piece of evil trash.


I have never been "one -side" since I first support DA.



But that doesn't automatically mean the ANC's opponents are squeaky-clean.

Everything is "fully calculated". (for me)
you think the "bill" is "good" for SA? come on. :D

[porchrat]

Well, for example, if the state security intends to take down a drug cartel or a human trafficking cartel they would want the information about their plans to remain secret. If a journalist somehow finds out and publishes the details, thereby tipping the cartels about what is going to happen, thus defeating the whole operation, that would be covered by this.

Also for example if a journalist somehow finds out about tender irregularities and publishes details this could potentially further destabilise the country. That would be covered by this.

See. Anything can be rationalised to fall under the broad definitions provided by this act.

[Mila]

Quite true. What would also be covered is anything else the government doesn't want to be published. That's why the bill is dangerous.

Thank you. I see some of us does not read just what we want to read.

[Albereth]

Well, for example, if the state security intends to take down a drug cartel or a human trafficking cartel they would want the information about their plans to remain secret. If a journalist somehow finds out and publishes the details, thereby tipping the cartels about what is going to happen, thus defeating the whole operation, that would be covered by this.

And this happens when?

The way I see it is that the government is creating an avenue to stamp out any opposing opinion. I've gone through enough of the 'better to release 100 guilty men than hang one innocent (install your own numbers)' arguments. And I get it. But when it comes to the press and the big boo hoo about retractions being printed in a small font in the obituaries - well tough.

Yes, the press gets it wrong, or not quite right (again, chose a departure point). So what? Some one is offended. Like that ever makes someone bleed or breaks a bone.

Right now we have self regulation. Don't write a law to now bring in media tribunals - that just gives authority to the wrong people and smacks of McCarthism, Stalinism or any other ism. Rather empower the current self regulating body to set whatever penalty, and give a right of redress for the plaintiff to sue the regulator if he doesn't do his job. And you can trot that out for the doctors and lawyers bodies. That'll solve half the BS in this world.

[joelus]

Quite true. What would also be covered is anything else the government doesn't want to be published. That's why the bill is dangerous.

It's a tough one because media freedom must be protected and so must state security. I'll admit I haven't read the bill but I think as long as it tested in the constitutional court some kind of compromise which allows the media it's freedom while criminalizing the revelation of classified information can be reached. On this one I think the DA is doing the correct thing in challenging it, if for no other reason but to ensure it remains constitutional.

[porchrat]

It's a tough one because media freedom must be protected and so must state security. I'll admit I haven't read the bill but I think as long as it tested in the constitutional court some kind of compromise which allows the media it's freedom while criminalizing the revelation of classified information can be reached. On this one I think the DA is doing the correct thing in challenging it, if for no other reason but to ensure it remains constitutional.

At no point should we allow what can and cannot be printed by the media to be governed by a body with no judicial oversight. (It won't have judicial oversight because remember... these are issues of national security!!)

We can't just allow a body to slap a label of "crucial to national security" onto whatever it wants and then claim it can't show us what it is labeling because... it is NATIONAL SECURITY!! The very notion of it is insane.

It is like a national child porn filter. You have no guarantee that child porn websites are the only things being blocked because you're not allowed to see the list.

What has your government done to demonstrate that it is worthy of that level of trust?

[grayston]

I have never been "one -side" since I first support DA.



Everything is "fully calculated". (for me)
you think the "bill" is "good" for SA? come on. :D

Dude, are you taking the piss or what? I tell you we should also be critical of the ANC's opponents, and you understand that to mean I agree with everything the ANC says?

Please let me know if I've misunderstood you.

[joelus]

I would also like some concrete examples of when the media has revealed information that was detrimental to state security in the past; can anyone think of any off hand?

[Mila]

Seems like the Hysteria is on the ANC's Side.

[JungleBoy]

At no point should we allow what can and cannot be printed by the media to be governed by a body with no judicial oversight. (It won't have judicial oversight because remember... these are issues of national security!!)

We can't just allow a body to slap a label of "crucial to national security" onto whatever it wants and then claim it can't show us what it is labeling because... it is NATIONAL SECURITY!! The very notion of it is insane.

It is like a national child porn filter. You have no guarantee that child porn websites are the only things being blocked because you're not allowed to see the list.

What has your government done to demonstrate that it is worthy of that level of trust?

But there are classified docs and info that should not be in the public domain...?
I think at the moment it is a criminal offence for a Joe Soap to be in possession of such info but the media is exempted from such because of the freedom of the press...??????

[porchrat]

I would also like some concrete examples of when the media has revealed information that was detrimental to state security in the past; can anyone think of any off hand?

+1. Would be interested in seeing if we could come up with some examples. I can't think of any.

[Bizkit87]

Well, for example, if the state security intends to take down a drug cartel or a human trafficking cartel they would want the information about their plans to remain secret. If a journalist somehow finds out and publishes the details, thereby tipping the cartels about what is going to happen, thus defeating the whole operation, that would be covered by this.

or a police commisionare decides to sign a R500-million deal illegally?

or a corrupt youth league leader is making millions out of tenderpreneurship?

can this bill just decide that this is "national security" and keep it out of the papers?

have you ever seen a newspaper article going like this:


"Police to raid drug kingpin tommorrow"
by A.N. Other

Sources have revealed that the police force is planning to raid 232 South Street, Pretoria, tomorrow @ 13h00, coming from a westerly angle, and will have helicopter backup, we will keep you updated.


Don't be an idiot....

[porchrat]

But there are classified docs and info that should not be in the public domain...?
I think at the moment it is a criminal offence for a Joe Soap to be in possession of such info but the media is exempted from such because of the freedom of the press...??????

Doesn't matter. If the solution is a governing body with blanket power to declare something "classified" with no judicial oversight then it is NOT a solution. It just takes us straight back to the days of Apartheid.

Besides the newspapers are pretty good at regulating themselves. They don't print news articles to do with impending drug busts or reveal names of protected witnesses etc. when last did that happen?

Again I ask: What has our government done to convince you that it is worthy of this level of trust?

[grayston]

I would also like some concrete examples of when the media has revealed information that was detrimental to state security in the past; can anyone think of any off hand?

Actually, can we think of any instances other than

1. Journalists accepting bribes FROM THE ANC
2. Journalists deliberately writing falsehoods AND THEN BEING HIRED BY THE ANC
3. Journalists giving up their journalistic integrity TO WORK FOR A NEWSPAPER OWNED BY THE ANC

which might require this bill to be brought into effect?

[JungleBoy]

Actually, can we think of any instances other than

1. Journalists accepting bribes FROM THE ANC
2. Journalists deliberately writing falsehoods AND THEN BEING HIRED BY THE ANC
3. Journalists giving up their journalistic integrity TO WORK FOR A NEWSPAPER OWNED BY THE ANC

which might require this bill to be brought into effect?

Ahh ...if that's the case then we have nothing to worry about as this is self sensorship on the part of the ANC.

[joelus]

Actually, can we think of any instances other than

1. Journalists accepting bribes FROM THE ANC
2. Journalists deliberately writing falsehoods AND THEN BEING HIRED BY THE ANC
3. Journalists giving up their journalistic integrity TO WORK FOR A NEWSPAPER OWNED BY THE ANC

which might require this bill to be brought into effect?

Why only specifically the ANC?
Or do you naively believe other political parties don't play the same game?
Or that politicians are the only corruption in this country?
All newspapers are owned by organizations with an agenda.

[grayston]

Why only specifically the ANC?
Or do you naively believe other political parties don't play the same game?
Or that politicians are the only corruption in this country?
All newspapers are owned by organizations with an agenda.

You are quite correct. The agenda is almost exclusively, "to sell more newspapers".

Newspapers which tell the public what the public wants to hear are more likely to sell.

The public (parts of it at least) wants to hear about the ANC's messups. The media then addresses that demand. I believe this process has something to do with capitalism.


As to your point that all political parties are corrupt, I will agree with you there as well. But now show me a political party in South Africa with as much influence as the ANC?

The ANC can't take a controlling role in almost every aspect of our lives and then complain that we're taking an interest in the manner of this control. Well ... they can, but it makes them look incredibly stupid.

[Flanders]

"Police to raid drug kingpin tommorrow"
by A.N. Other

Sources have revealed that the police force is planning to raid 232 South Street, Pretoria, tomorrow @ 13h00, coming from a westerly angle, and will have helicopter backup, we will keep you updated.

:D

No, sorry. This whole thing reeks to high heaven I'm afraid. I'd bet my bottom dollar that nothing good will come of it. The mere thought that they've actually got the gall to try and push this through is worrying enough. Worrying, mind you, not surprising.

[Chris]

Why only specifically the ANC?
Or do you naively believe other political parties don't play the same game?
Or that politicians are the only corruption in this country?
All newspapers are owned by organizations with an agenda.

Ruling parties from all over the world get stick from their national newspapers. If people think the SA media are harsh, then they haven't seen some of the UK ones! Politicians have to got to learn that public scrutiny comes with the territory...

[marine1]

ANC has become the same bloody thing as the NP :rolleyes:

[Alan]

The problem for the ANC is the papers were once their comrades and biggest shrills. The media had no problem glossing over ANC incompetence and corruption in the good old Madiba days and the start of Mbeki's administration.

[KillerX]

....And slowly and surely we drift towards zim 2.0. The DA will fight for it, as will most intelligent people that see the danger , but as with the scoprions, the ANC will just steamroll it and show everyone the finger.

[DreamKing]

Don't worry. He is just trying to protect the anc in his own way by ignoring the actual issues being raised here. :rolleyes:


Quite correct.

In fact, if the ANC came out tomorrow and told everyone that whites were the master race and we should all bow down and worship them, ANC supporters would be kneeling in front of white people before the day was out.

ANC says it, ANC supporters believe it. End of story.


+100000 :D


Before you get too smiley mate, may I just remind you that "DA says it, DreamKing believes it" is also a perfectly valid statement.

Don't think your blind support of certain political parties is okay just because you think they're doing a good job...

(your response was very STRANGE!!!) :confused:


:confused:


That you should try and be a little less one-sided.

We can all agree that the ANC is a pathetic, worthless piece of evil trash. But that doesn't automatically mean the ANC's opponents are squeaky-clean.


Dude, are you taking the piss or what? I tell you we should also be critical of the ANC's opponents, and you understand that to mean I agree with everything the ANC says?

Please let me know if I've misunderstood you.

I don't understand what made you feel I am a "blind supporter".

Please clearly indicate why you accused me as a “blind supporter” first before we may continue.

I have no idea what you are trying to say and I really don't know how I can respond. :confused:

[icyrus]

But there are classified docs and info that should not be in the public domain...?

If possible, would you please provide some examples of what material you would considering necessary for the government to keep classified and why?

[DarkStreet]

Anybody watch Carte Blanche last night and that idiotic woman in parliament who wailed about how her privacy was invaded because people want to see what new car she has purchased? Is this a threat to national security? They obviously want this bill to cover up their spending our tax money on luxuries. Report that - 25 year in prison and R 1 000 000 fine. Rape or murder: R 500 bail and maybe a jail sentence if you're unlucky.

[Zenbaas]

Anybody watch Carte Blanche last night and that idiotic woman in parliament who wailed about how her privacy was invaded because people want to see what new car she has purchased? Is this a threat to national security? They obviously want this bill to cover up their spending our tax money on luxuries. Report that - 25 year in prison and R 1 000 000 fine. Rape or murder: R 500 bail and maybe a jail sentence if you're unlucky.

lol yeah and how she wanted to shoot them with her gun for "trespassing". I also found the comments by the anc MP rather funny when he commented that journalists who were investigating crimes were wrong and only the police should do investigations as it was their job ! :D

[XineoX]

lol yeah and how she wanted to shoot them with her gun for "trespassing". I also found the comments by the anc MP rather funny when he commented that journalists who were investigating crimes were wrong and only the police should do investigations as it was their job ! :D

Hey don't forget that she wants the headline "MP Shoots Journalist" to be classified :D

Seriously if you didn't have dirty secrets then the press wouldn't air it now would they :rolleyes:

[grayston]

....And slowly and surely we drift towards zim 2.0. The DA will fight for it, as will most intelligent people that see the danger , but as with the scoprions, the ANC will just steamroll it and show everyone the finger.

Yay! Everyone drink! :D

[diesel]

I would also like some concrete examples of when the media has revealed information that was detrimental to state security in the past; can anyone think of any off hand?

Well in our case the "state" is the ANC , and we see examples of it every single day like yesterday when the news about police HQ rental was published. That kind of media damages the ANC's reputation so it is detrimental to the state! , Other parties have nothing to worry about because they are not always stealing. :p

[JungleBoy]

If possible, would you please provide some examples of what material you would considering necessary for the government to keep classified and why?

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.

[marine1]

the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.So true, they are full of crap ;)

[JungleBoy]

So true, they are full of crap ;)

yeah that too :D

[grayston]

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.

ie. taken a vow of silence? ;)

[Nod]

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.

Those are already protected. Thus no need to make new laws in order to protect those.

With the new bill, any minister can declare something "in the national interest", and slap a secrecy label on it. There is no definition of what may be declared "in the national interest". As the bill is worded, the government could decide that any tender process is sensitive in nature, and nobody would thus have a legal way in which to query who got that tender in which way.

This bill is not about protecting privacy or peoples right to dignity or even preventing newspapers from defaming somebodies character, as there are laws in place to do that already. If it is not working, then those laws must be fixed/better enforced.

[Voicy]

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.

Sure, but keeping a lid on government crime and corruption is not exactly "a matter of national security".

[JungleBoy]

Those are already protected. Thus no need to make new laws in order to protect those.

With the new bill, any minister can declare something "in the national interest", and slap a secrecy label on it. There is no definition of what may be declared "in the national interest". As the bill is worded, the government could decide that any tender process is sensitive in nature, and nobody would thus have a legal way in which to query who got that tender in which way.
This bill is not about protecting privacy or peoples right to dignity or even preventing newspapers from defaming somebodies character, as there are laws in place to do that already. If it is not working, then those laws must be fixed/better enforced.

That is not likely to happen...because of this clause in the bill.

(4) The determination of what is in the national interest of the Republic must at all
times be guided by the values referred to in section 1 of the Constitution. (http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=118894)

[Nerfherder]

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.


Interesting comment about private information. I remember that when the press revealed that Manto was an alcoholic everyone was upset because that is supposed to be confidential. However if you look at the context of that revelation it showed that she abused her power as minister to get a liver that would never have been given to her normally.
I do agree that your medical records are a private matter but I think that the way in which power is abused in this country there are too many things that really can't be kept secret. Restrictions on the press are the last thing this government should be trying to do.

[Nod]

That is not likely to happen...because of this clause in the bill.
[/URL]

Section 1 of the [URL="http://www.info.gov.za/documents/constitution/1996/96cons1.htm"]Constitution (http://www.info.gov.za/view/DownloadFileAction?id=118894):

The Republic of South Africa is one, sovereign, democratic state founded on the following values:
1. Human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms.
2. Non-racialism and non-sexism.
3. Supremacy of the constitution and the rule of law.
4. Universal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.
How is that going to stop them from doing anything?

[eltherza]

*Comment removed by media regulator*

[Albereth]

That is not likely to happen...because of this clause in the bill.


And the counterargument will be that revealing that the minister is corrupt will be an attack of his/her human dignity.

[joelus]

Well in our case the "state" is the ANC , and we see examples of it every single day like yesterday when the news about police HQ rental was published. That kind of media damages the ANC's reputation so it is detrimental to the state! , Other parties have nothing to worry about because they are not always stealing. :p

That's true, I guess, but only because they don't have the same power and opportunity that the ANC has.
If they had more power I have no doubt that many of them would be enriching themselves just as enthusiastically. They are all politicians (and human) after all!

But seriously, I seem to have in the back of my mind an example of state security being threatened by media reports I just can't bring to mind what it was! It would have been more than just damage to ANC reputation though...

[joelus]

Interesting comment about private information. I remember that when the press revealed that Manto was an alcoholic everyone was upset because that is supposed to be confidential. However if you look at the context of that revelation it showed that she abused her power as minister to get a liver that would never have been given to her normally.
I do agree that your medical records are a private matter but I think that the way in which power is abused in this country there are too many things that really can't be kept secret. Restrictions on the press are the last thing this government should be trying to do.

Sorry, I know this is off topic but it is simply not true that Manto abused her power as minister to get a liver that would never have been given to her normally.


Two years ago, Tshabalala-Msimang had a five-hour liver transplant.

At the time there was widespread speculation that she had jumped the waiting list for organs.

But this was denied by Wing and a team of specialists.

Wing said the then-minister's "tissue typing rendered her a universal recipient".

"In this country there is no long waiting list as such for livers," he said.

"In fact, when it comes to liver transplants, we have more donors than recipients."

Dr Russell Britz, a chief transplant surgeon at the Wits Donald Gordon Medical Centre, said Tshabalala- Msimang "scored the highest points" to be a recipient.

At the time, Tager said that according to the waiting list at the Donald Gordon centre, the minister "qualified as the person who was most in need of a liver in terms of severity of condition and size match compatibility".

Wing was also quoted as saying before, during and after the then-minister's transplant that her liver problems had nothing to do with alcohol, but were caused by hepatitis.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20091217043448578C738560

[JungleBoy]

Section 1 of the Constitution (http://www.info.gov.za/documents/constitution/1996/96cons1.htm):

How is that going to stop them from doing anything?

I am not sure what you mean. You have quoted the founding values of our constitution and you ask how are they going to stop them from going against them????
Let me spell it out to you...such classification would be deemed unconstitutional should they go against any of these contitutional values

[evilstebunny]

That is not likely to happen...because of this clause in the bill.

That would be a valid argument were it not for the ANC repeatedly indicating that they want to change the contitution.

[Nod]

I am not sure what you mean. You have quoted the founding values of our constitution and you ask how are they going to stop them from going against them????
Let me spell it out to you...such classification would be deemed unconstitutional should they go against any of these contitutional values


The Republic of South Africa is one, sovereign, democratic state founded on the following values:
1. Human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms.
2. Non-racialism and non-sexism.
3. Supremacy of the constitution and the rule of law.
4. Universal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.
See the bold parts? That is where they are already going against the values, or trying very hard.

[Geriatrix]

That would be a valid argument were it not for the ANC repeatedly indicating that they want to change the contitution.

^ This.

[JungleBoy]

And the counterargument will be that revealing that the minister is corrupt will be an attack of his/her human dignity.

If it was unfounded, yes it would be. But there are courts (including the consittutional court) that have a final say on such matters. We the citizens, including the media and gvt ministers, etc all have access to the courts.

The question here is whether the bill is unconstitutional or not? I have already pointed out that the determination of what is in the national interest is not not going to be a thumb suck as it has to be based on the founding principles of the constitution.

[JungleBoy]

That would be a valid argument were it not for the ANC repeatedly indicating that they want to change the contitution.
Changing or amending the constitution is allowed by the constitution under these provisions
at least two-thirds (66%) of the members of Parliament must vote to change it.

Currently the ANC does not have the 66% representation, therefore they cannot change the constitution by themselves even if they wanted to.

[DreamKing]

That's true, I guess, but only because they don't have the same power and opportunity that the ANC has.
If they had more power I have no doubt that many of them would be enriching themselves just as enthusiastically. They are all politicians (and human) after all!

But seriously, I seem to have in the back of my mind an example of state security being threatened by media reports I just can't bring to mind what it was! It would have been more than just damage to ANC reputation though...

we don't need to vote and we don't need to have democracy. It is because EVERYONE is the same. All Parties are the same, so vote for anc now. :D

PS: woooooow...... your true identity revealed. :)

[icyrus]

I think in almost all spheres of life there's some degree of information classification.
Military intelligence is probably the obvious classiffcation of the highest order.

Just as you are entitled to keeping your private information private i.e. your medical records, salary information, etc. the gvt also has secretes that they don't want you to know unless you've been properly vetted.

If there is actually a valid case for information to remain secret then it should be easy enough to state examples and reasons.

For instance, I can see the need for access usernames and password to remain known only to those who are using the systems.

Aside from that the need for secrecy in government is completely overstated. Especially in South Africa's situation.

[Albereth]

If it was unfounded, yes it would be. But there are courts (including the consittutional court) that have a final say on such matters. We the citizens, including the media and gvt ministers, etc all have access to the courts.

The question here is whether the bill is unconstitutional or not? I have already pointed out that the determination of what is in the national interest is not not going to be a thumb suck as it has to be based on the founding principles of the constitution.

Bills are neither constitutional not unconstitutional. They are merely words on paper - it's when they become law that the content has any impact.

It is also very naieve to believe that the law is not, or will not be, abused.

[joelus]

we don't need to vote and we don't need to have democracy. It is because EVERYONE is the same. All Parties are the same, so vote for anc now. :D

PS: woooooow...... your true identity revealed. :)

You are correct, I have been ousted, my secret sympathies revealed! Down with democracy, down! Viva Anarchy, viva! Anarchy (http://www.anarchy.net/) for the people!!!

[grayston]

Changing or amending the constitution is allowed by the constitution under these provisions
at least two-thirds (66%) of the members of Parliament must vote to change it.

Currently the ANC does not have the 66% representation, therefore they cannot change the constitution by themselves even if they wanted to.

Uh - didn't they spend their last election campaign trying to convince people that they needed 66% in government in order to do their job properly?

In other words - the ANC can't do its job properly with someone looking over its shoulder.

I sympathise. I've had bosses who hang on my shoulder watching my every move. It's irritating. It shows a lack of trust in my abilities. And perhaps that is why the ANC is so upset: nobody trusts them any more.

Still: that's the fault of the ANC rather than the press. I willingly concede that the press goes overboard occasionally, but to be honest they are usually remarkably restrained. Think of all the times an ANC politician has said something in public which is clearly nonsense, and not a single journalist has dared to point this out.

Ok, except for that "bloody agent" ... what did Julius want to do to him again? Throw him out a window?

[JungleBoy]

Uh - didn't they spend their last election campaign trying to convince people that they needed 66% in government in order to do their job properly?

In other words - the ANC can't do its job properly with someone looking over its shoulder.

I sympathise. I've had bosses who hang on my shoulder watching my every move. It's irritating. It shows a lack of trust in my abilities. And perhaps that is why the ANC is so upset: nobody trusts them any more.

Still: that's the fault of the ANC rather than the press. I willingly concede that the press goes overboard occasionally, but to be honest they are usually remarkably restrained. Think of all the times an ANC politician has said something in public which is clearly nonsense, and not a single journalist has dared to point this out.

Ok, except for that "bloody agent" ... what did Julius want to do to him again? Throw him out a window?

Was merely pointing out that he ANC (alone) is not in a position to amend the constitution now.
Furthermore the ANC has been in a position whereby they could change the constitution...At some point they had more than 66% representation in parliament and were the ruling party in all 9 provinces of SA. If the constitution survived then what makes you think it's under threat now when they don't have the required majority?

[Djtay]

Was merely pointing out that he ANC (alone) is not in a position to amend the constitution now.
Furthermore the ANC has been in a position whereby they could change the constitution...At some point they had more than 66% representation in parliament and were the ruling party in all 9 provinces of SA. If the constitution survived then what makes you think it's under threat now when they don't have the required majority?

Don't even bother asking him.

Zille said the constitution is under threat, so it must be true.

Sheep.

[Albereth]

Was merely pointing out that he ANC (alone) is not in a position to amend the constitution now.
Furthermore the ANC has been in a position whereby they could change the constitution...At some point they had more than 66% representation in parliament and were the ruling party in all 9 provinces of SA. If the constitution survived then what makes you think it's under threat now when they don't have the required majority?

Maybe because we have more corrupt and incompetent folk around than when Mandela was 'in charge'?

[Palimino]

Next time old Malema shoots his mouth off please remember that it is his "Freedom of Speech"

By that logic it’s OK to shout FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema? There are some obvious restrictions. You’re being obtuse.

[Albereth]

By that logic it’s OK to shout FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema? There are some obvious restrictions. You’re being obtuse.

Or trot out some jokes at the check-in desk at an airport.

[joelus]

By that logic it’s OK to shout FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema? There are some obvious restrictions. You’re being obtuse.

So you agree that there is information the media should not be allowed to report on? Information that might have the same effect on the country that shouting FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema would have?

[Flanders]

...Sheep.

lol...says the sheep in wolf's clothing. You think you're outside the pen looking in, when in fact you're on the inside looking out.



Zille said the constitution is under threat, so it must be true.


All part of her racist agenda, right? *snoooore*

[McSack]

So you agree that there is information the media should not be allowed to report on? Information that might have the same effect on the country that shouting FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema would have?
I cannot for the life of me think of any situation where this would be true. ... seriously ... and I have yet to hear an example from anyone that makes any kind of sense

[Palimino]

...but only because they don't have the same power and opportunity that the ANC has.
If they had more power I have no doubt that many of them would be enriching themselves just as enthusiastically. They are all politicians (and human) after all!

No, I don’t think so. There will be some but the ANC seem to have a monopoly on bling-crazed, self-important politicians.

[Palimino]

I think we should petition Wikileaks to open a chapter here. They do not pretend to be legal and would be even-handed in reporting corruption by the DA or the ANC. This would solve all 'legal' problems.

[joelus]

No, I don’t think so. There will be some but the ANC seem to have a monopoly on bling-crazed, self-important politicians.

Oh please, politicians all over the world are power hungry and self-important. The ANC are totally small fry and minor players when it comes to this in the greater scheme of things.
People who now don't have any power can easily stand on the sidelines and be all self-congratulatory and pretend to be squeaky clean but actually give them a bit of power and then we'll see what comes of it.

[Palimino]

People who now don't have any power can easily stand on the sidelines and be all self-congratulatory and pretend to be squeaky clean but actually give them a bit of power and then we'll see what comes of it.

What absolute rubbish! Even under the secretive Nationalist government and apartheid, corruption and waste weren’t as rampant as now.

[Flanders]

Maybe these boobs are sitting on a crashed UFO somewhere and they don't want the papers catching wind of...the fact that it was stripped down in 2 hours and used to build housing that should've been provided by government nearly 2 decades ago (or summin'). :p

Then again, I think the only UFO that our government is protecting is the Uneducated Fat Oaf at the steering wheel.

[Nod]

Maybe these boobs are sitting on a crashed UFO somewhere and they don't want the papers catching wind of...the fact that it was stripped down in 2 hours and used to build housing that should've been provided by government nearly 2 decades ago (or summin'). :p

Then again, I think the only UFO that our government is protecting is the Uneducated Fat Oaf at the steering wheel.

Pics or it didn't happen :p

[joelus]

I cannot for the life of me think of any situation where this would be true. ... seriously ... and I have yet to hear an example from anyone that makes any kind of sense

The problem for me is that the media is not made up of these objective journalists who report with no agenda. If the media was fulfilling it's mandate to provide us with accurate and reliable information, that would be fine, but this is not the case. The reality is that what is reported on is not determined by editorial integrity and credibility, but by market forces. Media is dominated by business and political adverts and political side choosing, rather than balanced news, opinion pieces, editorials and reader's views. Our media is obsessed with fraud and corruption, with gossip, and voyeurism, with innuendo, sex, drugs, scandals, cheating, character assassination and failed relationships. Stories that do nothing to encourage community development, non-racialism and nation-building. With freedom comes responsibility and I feel that the media here (and even more so in other parts of the world) have a lot to learn about the responsibility that comes with freedom.
If you want examples, just open the newspaper.

[JustAsk]

What absolute rubbish! Even under the secretive Nationalist government and apartheid, corruption and waste weren’t as rampant as now.

And how do you know this...since there was not a free press.

[Nod]

The problem for me is that the media is not made up of these objective journalists who report with no agenda. If the media was fulfilling it's mandate to provide us with accurate and reliable information, that would be fine, but this is not the case. The reality is that what is reported on is not determined by editorial integrity and credibility, but by market forces. Media is dominated by business and political adverts and political side choosing, rather than balanced news, opinion pieces, editorials and reader's views. Our media is obsessed with fraud and corruption, with gossip, and voyeurism, with innuendo, sex, drugs, scandals, cheating, character assassination and failed relationships. Stories that do nothing to encourage community development, non-racialism and nation-building. With freedom comes responsibility and I feel that the media here (and even more so in other parts of the world) have a lot to learn about the responsibility that comes with freedom.
If you want examples, just open the newspaper.

Maybe if government wasn't stepping in it at every turn, there wouldn't be such a big focus on it. Ignoring it will also not make service delivery, or any other of the current issues, any better.

The media have a responsibility towards the people in this country, to supply us with information that we would otherwise not get. That includes stories about how our tax money are wasted and how tenders are awarded to family and friends of corrupt officials.

If you see articles that are misleading or untrue, it is your right to complain at the BCCSA.

[joelus]

What absolute rubbish! Even under the secretive Nationalist government and apartheid, corruption and waste weren’t as rampant as now.

Dream on! The corruption and waste were not known precisely because the Nationalist government was so secretive, nobody knew what was going on, so you simply can't compare. If you think an apartheid head of police could be taken to court like Selebi was, you are mistaken. The laws controlling the media were oppressive and can't even be compared to the bill the present government wants to pass. Much of what we would call corruption today was legal and accepted then. Endemic corruption, waste and inefficiency is what characterised the apartheid regime (http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iss.co.za%2Fuploads%2FAPARTHE IDGRANDC2.PDF&ei=KgBYTIi9D5TNjAewyNHcCQ&usg=AFQjCNGJ3abpPVKhrM5KjDIuru26GAkNWA&sig2=1qbcvf2th-z1JZN5KQH2YA).
During apartheid there were no checks and balances or independent watchdog institutions, like we have now, to catch them out.

[McSack]

@ Joelus
I still don't see how market-driven reporting, no matter how bad or sensationalist it might be, can result in anything close to a "stampede in a darkened cinema" scenario
Who are government to decide on what you or I get to read? Maybe you should expose yourself to more than one or two selected sources and then you will get a more balanced view. If the government themselves don't do anything to encourage community development, non-racialism and nation-building how can they expect to be taken seriously when they say this is the intent of their attempt to muzzle the press?

[JungleBoy]

Maybe if government wasn't stepping in it at every turn, there wouldn't be such a big focus on it. Ignoring it will also not make service delivery, or any other of the current issues, any better.

The media have a responsibility towards the people in this country, to supply us with information that we would otherwise not get. That includes stories about how our tax money are wasted and how tenders are awarded to family and friends of corrupt officials.

If you see articles that are misleading or untrue, it is your right to complain at the BCCSA.

The BCCSA deals with complaints against TV and radio broadcasters.

I think the bodies you are looking for are SANEF, the Press Council of South Africa, the Press Ombudsman and the Press Appeals Panel.

[joelus]

I think we should petition Wikileaks to open a chapter here. They do not pretend to be legal and would be even-handed in reporting corruption by the DA or the ANC. This would solve all 'legal' problems.

http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:South_Africa

[Nod]

The BCCSA deals with complaints against TV and radio broadcasters.

I think the bodies you are looking for are SANEF, the Press Council of South Africa, the Press Ombudsman and the Press Appeals Panel.

Ah, yes, thanks :p

Anyways, the point is that there are avenues to complain about the media.

[joelus]

@ Joelus
I still don't see how market-driven reporting, no matter how bad or sensationalist it might be, can result in anything close to a "stampede in a darkened cinema" scenario
Who are government to decide on what you or I get to read? Maybe you should expose yourself to more than one or two selected sources and then you will get a more balanced view. If the government themselves don't do anything to encourage community development, non-racialism and nation-building how can they expect to be taken seriously when they say this is the intent of their attempt to muzzle the press?

I agree with you about the "stampede in a darkened cinema" scenario but was responding to someone else who used it as a metaphor for Malema being allowed to speak!

[KillerX]

Media tribunal: ANC rejects banana republic accusation

http://www.hayibo.com/media-tribunal-anc-rejects-banana-republic-accusation-says-sa-is-a-vegetable/

[bekdik]

Read the parly one first.

Then the FXI one (if you're still awake).

Not good.

I was going to read the first one when I came to "(MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE)" on the first page. Knowing this to be impossible I ignored the rest of the document.

[grayston]

Was merely pointing out that he ANC (alone) is not in a position to amend the constitution now.
Furthermore the ANC has been in a position whereby they could change the constitution...At some point they had more than 66% representation in parliament and were the ruling party in all 9 provinces of SA. If the constitution survived then what makes you think it's under threat now when they don't have the required majority?

You realise, right, that the media tribunal and Protection of Information Act are designed to prevent negative reporting of the ANC in the press?

And you realise, right, that negative reporting leads to less voter support?

Join the dots, Jungleman. Join the dots...

[JungleBoy]

You realise, right, that the media tribunal and Protection of Information Act are designed to prevent negative reporting of the ANC in the press?

And you realise, right, that negative reporting leads to less voter support?

Join the dots, Jungleman. Join the dots...


A lot of the negative reporting against the ANC is unfortunately not founded on fact. Check the number of rulings that have gone against the press on the press council website (http://www.presscouncil.org.za).

Unfortunately, as I mentioned before the punishment handed out is usually a slap on the wrist, hence the need for stiffer penalties against journalists who breach their proffession's code of ethics. In most cases by the time an apology is made the wrong impression has already been created.

[DreamKing]

.......Check the number of rulings ......



must be a lot ... :rolleyes:

[grayston]

By that logic it’s OK to shout FIRE! in a crowded and darkened cinema? There are some obvious restrictions. You’re being obtuse.

Reporting on Malema's outbursts are about the closest thing to shouting fire in a cinema that the press could do.

On the other hand, if there is a fire in the cinema, I'd like to know about it as soon as possible. Thanks.

[KillerX]

On the other hand, if there is a fire in the cinema, I'd like to know about it as soon as possible. Thanks.

LOL!

[joelus]

Reporting on Malema's outbursts are about the closest thing to shouting fire in a cinema that the press could do.

On the other hand, if there is a fire in the cinema, I'd like to know about it as soon as possible. Thanks.

Sure, but switch on the lights first, announce what is happening, ensure escape routes are open and assist people to leave in an orderly manner!

[grayston]

A lot of the negative reporting against the ANC is unfortunately not founded on fact. Check the number of rulings that have gone against the press on the press council website (http://www.presscouncil.org.za).

Yes, I spent some time looking through that site. I couldn't find very many ANC-related rulings, but there were a few. I especially liked the one where the former boss of the SABC tried to take a newspaper to task for saying he had "walked out in a huff".

Ag, noe-noes... Shamepies.


Unfortunately, as I mentioned before the punishment handed out is usually a slap on the wrist, hence the need for stiffer penalties against journalists who breach their proffession's code of ethics. In most cases by the time an apology is made the wrong impression has already been created.

The punishment is fair - or at least, determined by people who understand journalism and the press better than you or I do. Loss of reputation is a problem for newspapers as well as politicians. Imagine if ANC politicians were made to apologise after messing up! :D

Journalists report what goes on around them. Politicians cause much of what goes on around us. Politicians are the ones who should be facing stringent punishments for lying, cheating and endangering national security.

As for apologies coming late: take a look at GENERAL CELE! A story broke on Sunday and this morning he's already calling press conferences and pointing out that parts of it were incorrect. Pretty quick work, huh? And he didn't even need to go to the Ombudsman...

[joelus]

Yes, I spent some time looking through that site. I couldn't find very many ANC-related rulings, but there were a few. I especially liked the one where the former boss of the SABC tried to take a newspaper to task for saying he had "walked out in a huff".

Ag, noe-noes... Shamepies.



The punishment is fair - or at least, determined by people who understand journalism and the press better than you or I do. Loss of reputation is a problem for newspapers as well as politicians. Imagine if ANC politicians were made to apologise after messing up! :D

Journalists report what goes on around them. Politicians cause much of what goes on around us. Politicians are the ones who should be facing stringent punishments for lying, cheating and endangering national security.

As for apologies coming late: take a look at GENERAL CELE! A story broke on Sunday and this morning he's already calling press conferences and pointing out that parts of it were incorrect. Pretty quick work, huh? And he didn't even need to go to the Ombudsman...

hahahahahahahaha - you're a funny man.:D
I agree though that Politicians should face stringent punishments for lying, cheating and endangering national security. But then I think so should journalists!

[Datura]

If anybody has time, please sum this up and pop me a PM. I am really interested but super busy and want to know what the hell this is all about.

Much appreciated,

Dat

[porchrat]

Sure, but switch on the lights first, announce what is happening, ensure escape routes are open and assist people to leave in an orderly manner!

Both the location of the light switches and knowledge of the fire itself are classified.

[KillerX]

Both the location of the light switches and knowledge of the fire itself are classified.

There is no fire, remain in your seats. Its all disinformation by the bloody agents!

[joelus]

Both the location of the light switches and knowledge of the fire itself are classified.:D

[joelus]

If anybody has time, please sum this up and pop me a PM. I am really interested but super busy and want to know what the hell this is all about.

Much appreciated,

Dat

http://www.biz-community.com/Article/196/15/50691.html

[joelus]

From http://www.biz-community.com/Article/196/15/50691.html


The reason for this, I think, lies in provisions in the bill for government information to be declassified after 20 years and for a review of classification to occur every 10 years.

I would venture it dawned on the ANC that the 20 years from when it won the first democratic election in 1994 was just around the corner: 2014. And it would be best to try keep the POI Bill as broadly defined as possible (with more serious jail terms thrown in) so that ANC government information could be kept under lock and key. The bill already qualifies the provisions made for automatic declassification after 20 years as "unless such information is classified in terms of this Act".

It would seem the ANC got a big fright at the possibility of its dirty linen being aired in public and has moved to thwart it, Constitution or no Constitution.

[ponder]

What about
1. propaganda for war
2. inciting (encouraging) people to use violence
3. hate speech
????

Next time old Malema shoots his mouth off please remember that it is his "Freedom of Speech"

I'm actually all for those as well. Better the devil you know...

[Palimino]

http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:South_Africa

The more I think about it, the more attractive Wikileaks rumpuses become. A manifestly objective and disinterested observer (investigating all political parties, including the DA and opposition), who is extralegal so the government can’t suppress or gag by superior numbers. They can’t accuse them of self-interest or racism or being ‘too white’ like with the DA. Exposing corruption, crookedness and incompetence and generally waving the governments dirty underpants around.

Hmmmmm. I shall contact them immediately.