politics and myadsl [Archive]

dominic

06-09-2005, 09:09 PM

i say

nuke off topic with the exception of the thread killer or enforce the no politics rule - the extreme and sometimes offensive political spew and brainless reactionary crap now a regular flame feature in off topic is an unwelcome distraction and imo is harming the site

it is these threads which are often the root of interpersonal conflict which then spills over elsewhere; and while the internet may be colourless it is less so when people express their politics in very crude terms (here's an example http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=26927 there are plenty of others)...the fact that there is now a specially created subforum does not make political posts any less representative of this site

please note that i am not trying to judge people's politics - just observing that there will obviously be different perspectives and opinions which are emotionally-based and heated. once two members have got into a flame fight over political issues it becomes unlikely that they will co-operate over other issues....kei & tibby.dude - both of whom have their peculiarities :) but also more than most to contribute to assisting others and spreading knowledge to further the myadsl mission - are a prime example (there are many others)

i think it is time to go back to basics and focus freedom of expression where it belongs - on engaging, hassling, harassing and generally pushing telkom and any other party that stands in the way of affordable telecomms and net access; on being a forum where help is readily available and where members and guests are not put off by extremist content

the no rule applies to religious content and it should apply to political content to - but judging by the last month we seem to attracting more and more diversionary political, race-based posts

i know this is a work load on the mods (policing this) but would suggest that the rule be enforced for say a 3 month period after which it can be relaxed and we see how it goes

surely there must be many many other fora for those discussions?

VQuest

06-09-2005, 09:18 PM

It's so difficult to stop certain subjects from being discussed on forums. But I really do wish that RPM would stop any political and religious discussions. They absolutely always end up in a flame war. There are many other forums around where these subjects can be discussed, so it's really not necessary to discuss it here.

Although I do feel like we're a community, we really are here to discuss broadband issues and I feel we should keep it that way.

Too much time, effort and bandwidth gets wasted on these unproductive fights.

I know a lot of people will be against the banning of these subjects, but I really do hope RPM will consider it.

MyADSL is growing at an incredible rate and the more members we get, the more differing of opinions there will be. Which in turn will lead to more fights. So I suggest we stop it before things really do get out of control.

nrg_wp

06-09-2005, 09:20 PM

I agree, tonite was the first time i responded to a political/racial debate. I usually ignore them... I would prefer not to.. but had to

VQuest

06-09-2005, 09:24 PM

Yeah, I stay away as well. I don't enjoy fighting - some people seem to thrive on it though. (Although they like to say it's just a debate. Whatever you call it, it's simply not productive.) Never quite understood that.

stepper

06-09-2005, 09:25 PM

I agree, I know about most of my posts might have been better posted somewhere else or never at all but then there are some people who come/or registered to push thier political agenda here without ever contributing to various topics that this forum was intended for.

Kropotkin

06-09-2005, 09:28 PM

define: politics (Wikipedia)

Politics is the process and method of gaining or maintaining support for public or common action.
Seems to me that it will be impossible to enforce a ban on political discussion here :p

TheRoDent

06-09-2005, 09:32 PM

People discuss politics on MyADSL? :confused:

Geez. Obviously there are some parts (like this here part) of this forum that I frequent too irregularly. :D

Luke7777

06-09-2005, 09:33 PM

nrg_wp

06-09-2005, 09:33 PM

Stay away TheRoDent....
, it just pisses you off Im definately staying out of this section....

alacos

06-09-2005, 09:49 PM

i say

nuke off topic with the exception of the thread killer or enforce the no politics rule
But the whole of MyADSL is political -- or should be. (See my posts on this page:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=15462&page=3&pp=15)

Michael Alachouzos

dominic

06-09-2005, 09:50 PM

"No politics" is difficult. Nailing the goverment for dragging their feet re telecoms is politics, but not hardcore, which IMO should be warned/locked/deleted. And leave off topic the way it is. The fact that unwanted things are allowed to be discussed there, is not the fault of the actual forum. What makes threadkiller special to deserve exclusion btw. your participation ? Sorry, if you wanna nuke the forum, then nuke everything. Nukes are not selective in their destructive power.Nailing the government for dragging their feet on telecoms issues is politics surrounding telecoms..i.e. we identify the government as being a player in the telecomms market and thereore we discuss...

and i do believe that we should be able to discuss politics - but not in the way it is being done in some threads...hence the alternative to the nuke button...a temporary ban...hell i realise that that is not easy so maybe even a statement would do

sure it is not the fault of the forum (not sure how it could be) but i do belive some guidance is required

threadkiller because it is a convenient channel - my participation, your participation and a whole lot of other folk to boot

okay squash the nuke option as extreme but it seems to me that the way things are developing is harmful to myadsl and its mission and some action is required to regain our focus

dominic

06-09-2005, 09:53 PM

But the whole of MyADSL is political -- or should be. (See my posts on this page:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=15462&page=3&pp=15)

Michael Alachouzosfair enough but do you not consider threads such as the one referred to in the initial post as being inappropriate and potentially harmful?

+ see previous post

+ you are adopting a mischeviously wide interpretation of "political" :)

Luke7777

06-09-2005, 09:55 PM

politics, religion...difficult to control and always emotional. Can you imagine if Arch. Tutu also had a finger in the telecoms pie :D Agreed that guidance is needed and IMO the thread mentioned does NOT belong in these forums.

btw, I don't have a single post in the threadkiller, so nuke it I say :)

nrg_wp

06-09-2005, 09:57 PM

Tonight was the first (and last) time i comment in these type of threads... but it's my choice not to go into this forum section, so i wont, no need to govern them...

I just hope that people dont lose sight of myadsl's goals, better broadband.. peace!

bwana

06-09-2005, 10:04 PM

I've made the suggestion before but why not move off-topic into its own domain (much like myblog and mypodcast) and thus give it its own autonomy and accountability.

You need to be able to discuss politics especially when its the government - past and present - who are responsible for the state of todays telecommunications environment.

alacos

06-09-2005, 10:08 PM

fair enough but do you not consider threads such as the one referred to in the initial post as being inappropriate and potentially harmful?

+ see previous post

+ you are adopting a mischeviously wide interpretation of "political" :)
I don't think I'm adopting an unduly wide interpretation of "political" at all. The thread which you've linked to is rubbish -- but the reason that it's rubbish is not that it's political rubbish: it's just rubbish.

If you ban "politics" from the forum, people who want to talk rubbish will just talk rubbish about something else. So it may as well be politics.

Michael Alachouzos

dominic

06-09-2005, 10:09 PM

btw, I don't have a single post in the threadkiller, so nuke it I say :):eek: be sure to drop by soon

Tonight was the first (and last) time i comment in these type of threads... but it's my choice not to go into this forum section, so i wont, no need to govern them...

I just hope that people dont lose sight of myadsl's goals, better broadband.. peace!i get that it is a choice and i do not have to read a thread if i do not want to (not always so simple tho is it?)

but i still have a problem in that
1. what is written on myadsl represents the forum and it can be represented as such by others
2. it causes radical ill feeling between members
3. i honestly believe that it will scare potential members off
4. it distracts from the main myadsl mission

as mentioned freedom of expression of all views is welcome....but it should find its appropriate home

stix

06-09-2005, 10:13 PM

I agree with Dominic. Putting down a solid set of rules is tricky and there are always exceptions to your rules - edit as you see fit - , its a commercial reality. The community is more important than a few individuals that 'dominate' with their agendas. Or play complete hardball and go with permanent bans - it makes it less easier to commit to a flame knowing you could be axed permanently.

Of more concern to me is how a founding member of the online publishers association hosts the site mentioned in the quoted thread.

dominic

06-09-2005, 10:18 PM

I don't think I'm adopting an unduly wide interpretation of "political" at all. The thread which you've linked to is rubbish -- but the reason that it's rubbish is not that it's political rubbish: it's just rubbish.

If you ban "politics" from the forum, people who want to talk rubbish will just talk rubbish about something else. So it may as well be politics.

Michael Alachouzosthe thread is not just rubbish it is offensive rubbish and it is, in this case, offensive due to political content...rubbish of a less offensive nature exists happily in many corners of this forum and indeed adds to the community (see killer, thread the)

but i am swatting a fly with a truck (in reaction to recent reading) and i understand that it is a qualitative line, not easily drawn...

so to refine: perhaps stop any overtly political threads being initiated - politics can still be discussed from news...

and i retain the belief that this is an issue which needs to be addressed as a growing pain

craigsa

06-09-2005, 10:20 PM

Freedom of speech

dominic

06-09-2005, 10:30 PM

Freedom of speechi was waiting for that

craigsa - read my posts please - i am not trying to be a fascist or restrict anyone's freedom of speech...you are a member of this forum initially and primarily due to telecomms issues - that is why you joined. That is what the forum is about and we are free to express ourselves about telecomms issues. As it happens we are free to express ourselves about a hell of a lot else besides but that doesn't mean that everything you may want to express is appropriate to this forum. There will be other places where it is.

so that leaves an argument that it is an unjustifiable restriction on free speech not to be able to express something in a particular forum or place...not so

VQuest

06-09-2005, 10:49 PM

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech. There is a time and a place for everything. I wouldn't have a problem with someone starting a thread about politics or religion. I would simply not read the thread or reply to the thread. However, I have a very big problem with certain people who insist on hijacking almost every single thread and turning it into a political or religious warzone. The thread that upset me the most was the one which was posted about the London bombings on the day it happened. It went from an informative thread with important news to an out of control political/religious mud flinging contest. I had to wade through hundreds of bull**** posts by the same people saying the same thing over and over just so that I could find out if there were any updates on the situation. It was incredibly tasteless.

Having political discussions on and around the subjects of broadband or telecoms is one thing. But the way some people carry on is something else altogether.

craigsa

06-09-2005, 10:49 PM

No no no , i dont think you are trying to be a fascist at all. But then you must stop the gaming section and anything else on this forum. That cannot be done. We have the right to post whatever we want as long as we dont offend or insult anyone directly.
I think that we have the right to say what we like about politics as this indirectly impacts on the broadband issue as well.

If the owner of this site has a problem with these topics then he / she has the right to stop it. I feel i have a lot of input in many things besides Telecoms and so do others here. I have learned a lot about things in general here and feel there is a need for these kind of topics.
It benefits all to get these things out in the open.

My 2 cents

craigsa

06-09-2005, 10:52 PM

alacos

06-09-2005, 10:53 PM

i am not trying to be a fascist or restrict anyone's freedom of speech
I accept that you're not. But as you know, dominic, there's been a lot of mumbling on the forum over the past few days about lawyers intervening in the forum so as to restrict peoples' freedom of speech.

The particular interventions which sparked off the mumbling were, in my opinion, justified and necessary. But you and I are both lawyers -- and now that what was really necessary has been done I think that we ought to back off from any idea which might be taken to smack of "censorship" for the time being.

I agree with craigsa's position that "We have the right to post whatever we want as long as we dont offend or insult anyone directly".

Michael Alachouzos

craigsa

06-09-2005, 10:57 PM

Spoken like a true lawyer :)

Just kidding :)

VQuest

06-09-2005, 10:59 PM

Vquest , maybe certain things are close to your heart but they may not be to me or other peoiple here. In the off topic section we discuss things that are "off topic" whatever it may be. If it offends you then report a bad post. If you dont like the topic of conversation then stop reading it.

Dont mean to be harsh but its every member's right to have say on what ois on his/her mind here in the section.

Craig, as stated above, I wouldn't have a problem with a political or religious thread if it's just that - a thread starting out about politics. But I do have a problem with threads being derailed and turned into a political or religious flame war. If I start a thread about my cat, I certainly wouldn't appreciate if someone took it over and turned it into a political thread. Do you see what I mean? If I stopped reading all the threads which were being derailed into politics, I might as well stop reading 75% of the threads. I understand that you and other members are vocal about your beliefs and thats fine. But you must understand that a great majority of us really don't want to read or discuss politics.

craigsa

06-09-2005, 10:59 PM

Yeah , when someone starts swearing at someone else and directly insulting others its not on. Its stupid , immature and uncalled for. Even though i may have done this at times.(although only with Tibby) :)

bb_matt

06-09-2005, 11:01 PM

nuke off topic with the exception of the thread killer or enforce the no politics rule

I Disagree VERY STRONGLY.

Leave it AS IT IS.

The moment you try to get too controlling over these aspects of a forum, is the moment it goes downhill.

The recent rubbish we witnessed on this forum had sweet fanny aasvoegel to do with politics, they were more to do with peoples inability to get on in a mature way.

You CANNOT and MUST NOT dictate what people should and shouldn't do on a forum before the fact. (EDIT: Says me dictating before the fact :D )

You can lay down the law, sure, but PLEASE, do not dictate what goes and what doesn't.

The moment something like that happens, is the death knell of any online community - and trust me on this - I've been in enough of them to know.

LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE.

What I've found quite liberating, is that this place has a way of working things out on a community level while still retaining that openess and freedom of speech that is so very valuable - more valuable, I think, than any of us care to realise ...

My 99cents.

craigsa

06-09-2005, 11:04 PM

Ok fair enough. I suppose i agree with that and it is rather wierd how it does happen. I am partly to blame i suppose. Sorry but usually its sort of linked in a way

VQuest

06-09-2005, 11:05 PM

Ok fair enough. I suppose i agree with that and it is rather wierd how it does happen. I am partly to blame i suppose. Sorry but usually its sort of linked in a way

:)

craigsa

06-09-2005, 11:07 PM

Yeah BB i agree , things do work themselves out here. We are not kids and generally the logic and good judgement prvails. I am in agreement with you here.

craigsa

06-09-2005, 11:12 PM

Anyway guys i am off to bed. Be safe and please lock your doors and put the alarms on and please keep 10111 on speed dial or last number dialed.

Craig :)

jarr

06-09-2005, 11:43 PM

What I've found quite liberating, is that this place has a way of working things out on a community level while still retaining that openess and freedom of speech that is so very valuable - more valuable, I think, than any of us care to realise ...very true

TheRoDent

07-09-2005, 02:20 AM

mybroadband.co.za
myadsl.co.za

There's something to be said for the TOPIC, of a site. This site is about broadband, internet, and ADSL.

Politics related to that belong here, fine. Any other political discussion should remain the domain of people that couldn't make it as snake excrement inspectors.

dominic

07-09-2005, 07:17 AM

I Disagree VERY STRONGLY.

Leave it AS IT IS.

The moment you try to get too controlling over these aspects of a forum, is the moment it goes downhill.

The recent rubbish we witnessed on this forum had sweet fanny aasvoegel to do with politics, they were more to do with peoples inability to get on in a mature way.

You CANNOT and MUST NOT dictate what people should and shouldn't do on a forum before the fact. (EDIT: Says me dictating before the fact :D )

You can lay down the law, sure, but PLEASE, do not dictate what goes and what doesn't.

The moment something like that happens, is the death knell of any online community - and trust me on this - I've been in enough of them to know.

LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE.

What I've found quite liberating, is that this place has a way of working things out on a community level while still retaining that openess and freedom of speech that is so very valuable - more valuable, I think, than any of us care to realise ...

My 99cents.
it's a difficult issue and. with respect, the contradictions in your post bear this out...i accept that my initial post comes from frustration and was way too strong (backed off in subsequent posts) but i did want to raise awareness of something which i regard as a problem for the site and what it is trying to do

if it is down to personal accountability fine - lets all remind ourselves of how we need to behave in some instances & maybe admin should consider some form of reminder as to the real purpose of this forum

& the recent posts have a lot to do with politics simply because it is one of those topics that causes emotional dissension. personally i am passionate about freedom of speech and professionally practise in this area but there seems to be a trend towards holding it up as an absolute right which excuses anything and this is simply not true

/ maybe we just need to give things a week or two to settle down - i think there is a lot of sensitivity on the part of members after recent events so things which would ordinarily be shrugged off or laughed at are now responded to seriously or taken personally

dominic

07-09-2005, 07:30 AM

I accept that you're not. But as you know, dominic, there's been a lot of mumbling on the forum over the past few days about lawyers intervening in the forum so as to restrict peoples' freedom of speech.

The particular interventions which sparked off the mumbling were, in my opinion, justified and necessary. But you and I are both lawyers -- and now that what was really necessary has been done I think that we ought to back off from any idea which might be taken to smack of "censorship" for the time being.

I agree with craigsa's position that "We have the right to post whatever we want as long as we dont offend or insult anyone directly".

Michael Alachouzosalacos i hear that but it is difficult to accept

one, and this is a line we are discovering as we go along, being known as a lawyer on the forum is often difficult and has its own pitfalls. but i refuse to accept that i cannot post freely as other members do i.e. in my personal capacity. my profession i would want to remain largely irrelevant to my participation unless the topic calls for the use of such knowledge

two, i will not accept the blame the lawyers mentality. fact is i am not talking about censorship or restriction of freedom of speech - at times the foum shows an immature understanding of freedom of speech which essentially rests on the right to express but loses sight of the corresponding duty to express responsibly ("We have the right to post whatever we want as long as we dont offend or insult anyone directly"). people can mumble and put lables like "slugs" etc as much as they like - it is always convenient to have a third party to blame

thirdly we can accept that the site has an existence independent of its members and representing the sum total and synergies of their participation. i have a real concern that the forum as a voice for consumer activism in the telecomms arena can be substantially harmed by posts of this nature and i am not seeing a great deal of evidence of people being responsible and considering the implications of their posts...so what do you do? obviously there are no easy answers but i want to at least raise an awareness which will maybe have the effect i am looking for in and of itself

anyway, this is a personal gripe/suggestion and if i am honest i was offended by the post (and some others) - mea culpa etc

rebel

07-09-2005, 08:03 AM

I say remove everything and leave only the broadband (and ISDN/Dial-Up) forum. I like flame wars but they're definately harming the site. Kei left because people were threatening and flaming him. I have nothing against anyone (except Telkom employees) on this forum but I invite people to flame me.

BTW, what can a lawyer do on this forum? Sue me? I dare you to try.

dominic

07-09-2005, 08:12 AM

BTW, what can a lawyer do on this forum? Sue me? I dare you to try.sigh, what would you like to be sued for? lawyer's don't sue people, their clients do....different discussion

bb_matt

07-09-2005, 08:23 AM

& the recent posts have a lot to do with politics simply because it is one of those topics that causes emotional dissension. personally i am passionate about freedom of speech and professionally practise in this area but there seems to be a trend towards holding it up as an absolute right which excuses anything and this is simply not true

The recent posts were made by childish and selfish people and I saw little to no politics involved.

TheRodent - to each their own - I understand your reasons to come here as being primarily IT related, I prefer a "rounded" approach to everything, but I do agree that the primary focus should be kept. It's good to have a place to discuss other aspects of IT and yes, sometimes the politics side of things is a bit irritating, digressing to pointless blabber by the 4th post in most cases.

I'd say the forums are on track in terms of an even balance - at any given time, telecomms and IT related things dominate the New Posts list.
However, you can't ignore that Off Topic is the second most popular forum section after General ADSL - there's a lot of IT and geek related stuff in Off Topic I like to read, plus some funny stuff :D

stoke

07-09-2005, 09:06 AM

/me votes NO to dominic's suggestion.

dominic

07-09-2005, 09:10 AM

/me votes NO to dominic's suggestion.not sure what my suggestion is anymore - no nukes is good nukes - fine

/me stills feels like the situation should be looked at and ensured it does no harm to the forum

alacos

07-09-2005, 10:04 AM

i will not accept the blame the lawyers mentality. fact is i am not talking about censorship or restriction of freedom of speech - at times the foum shows an immature understanding of freedom of speech which essentially rests on the right to express but loses sight of the corresponding duty to express responsibly ("We have the right to post whatever we want as long as we dont offend or insult anyone directly"). people can mumble and put lables like "slugs" etc as much as they like - it is always convenient to have a third party to blame
So, someone on the forum compared us (lawyers) to slugs. Oh, boo-hoo!

It doesn't upset me in the slightest, and I'm not in favour of suppressing anything said in the forum -- even "offensive" or "insulting" stuff -- unless what is said is either (a) at (or near) the extreme end of "offensive" (e.g. racial abuse or gross obscenity) or (b) actually legally dangerous for the forum or its owners/administrators (e.g. because amounting to actionable defamation, violation of intellectual-property rights, etc etc). And the mere fact that what is said may be irrelevant to broadband issues in SA (and/or may be percieved by some sensitive soul as an insult) is not, to my mind, sufficient reason.

Michael Alachouzos

Vio

07-09-2005, 11:57 AM

Personaly I do not mind the discussion of politics in the offtopic section, as long as it doesn't degrade into personal attacks its all good. :)

bwana

07-09-2005, 12:05 PM

So, someone on the forum compared us (lawyers) to slugs. Oh, boo-hoo! . . . Shame - if I was a slug I'd be pissed off with that comparison. :D

dominic

07-09-2005, 12:58 PM

So, someone on the forum compared us (lawyers) to slugs. Oh, boo-hoo!

It doesn't upset me in the slightest, and I'm not in favour of suppressing anything said in the forum -- even "offensive" or "insulting" stuff -- unless what is said is either (a) at (or near) the extreme end of "offensive" (e.g. racial abuse or gross obscenity) or (b) actually legally dangerous for the forum or its owners/administrators (e.g. because amounting to actionable defamation, violation of intellectual-property rights, etc etc). And the mere fact that what is said may be irrelevant to broadband issues in SA (and/or may be percieved by some sensitive soul as an insult) is not, to my mind, sufficient reason.

Michael Alachouzosokay - if it materially detracts from the stated purpose of the forum even though it may not be actionable then is that just tough **** for others?

stix

07-09-2005, 01:21 PM

a simple realities..

This forum is provided as is, at no cost [ except the exorbitant cost of connecting to the net in SA ] to the user /reader/ poster, by the sounds of it they run on a shoe string budget and alot of good people moding the place

Until they charge you as a reader a memebrship fee / subscription - they can do what they please and if that means dictating what happens on the forum then so be it - may it be editing offensive posts and or banning serial flamers.

I know from experience - either kill this issue or is just going to float around and then esculate into a huge gemoors.........

alacos

07-09-2005, 06:34 PM

okay - if it materially detracts from the stated purpose of the forum even though it may not be actionable then is that just tough **** for others?
Well, the alternative is this:

A insults B (or makes an irrelevant "political" posting). The mods notice the offending posting and delete it. Then B insults A or C (or makes an irrelevant "political" posting), but the mods don't see B's posting and therefore don't delete it. And then threads start springing up all over the forum with people complaining about "biased"/"unfair" moderation.

Rather than have that sort of scenario -- and we've had quite a lot of it recently -- I'd rather go with a policy of only banning/deleting the really harmful/dangerous stuff.

I'd adopt a different view if it came to the point where the stated-purpose content of the forum was actually in danger of being overwhelmed by detracting postings. But I don't think we're anywhere near that point at present.

Michael Alachouzos

alacos

07-09-2005, 07:20 PM

OK -- Here's an alternative idea. (It's only just occurred to me, and I haven't really thought it through yet, so don't just jump on me if you don't like it).

Any posting which comes to the mods' attention and which is clearly irrelevant to the core purposes of the forum (but which is not so offensive/dangerous etc as to warrant immediate deletion) is moved to the "off topic" section. Not whole threads -- just the particular postings (assuming that to be possible with the vBulletin software).

Then, at the end of (say) each month, everything in the "off topic" section which is more than a month old -- with the exception, perhaps, of the "Thread Killer" thread (since that seems to have become a sort of forum tradition) -- is deleted. Insulting posts, non-insulting posts, political posts, non-political posts -- everything.

That would certainly keep the forum from being overwhelmed with irrelevant matter -- and nobody would have cause to complain of having been treated in a "biased" manner as a result of it.

Michael Alachouzos

bb_matt

07-09-2005, 07:27 PM

And would go completely against the grain of what the internet and ideas are all about ...

Some interesting gems can be found in the Off Topic section and on more than one occassion I've searched them to find something useful.

You cannot prune the internet - you can try to sort it, but not prune it.

As I've said in another thread to this, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Nothing is broke here, except a few peoples egos and reputations.

OK -- Here's an alternative idea. (It's only just occurred to me, and I haven't really thought it through yet, so don't just jump on me if you don't like it).

Any posting which comes to the mods' attention and which is clearly irrelevant to the core purposes of the forum (but which is not so offensive/dangerous etc as to warrant immediate deletion) is moved to the "off topic" section. Not whole threads -- just the particular postings (assuming that to be possible with the vBulletin software).

Then, at the end of (say) each month, everything in the "off topic" section which is more than a month old -- with the exception, perhaps, of the "Thread Killer" thread (since that seems to have become a sort of forum tradition) -- is deleted. Insulting posts, non-insulting posts, political posts, non-political posts -- everything.

That would certainly keep the forum from being overwhelmed with irrelevant matter -- and nobody would have cause to complain of having been treated in a "biased" manner as a result of it.

Michael Alachouzos

nocilah

07-09-2005, 07:27 PM

alacos i am sure you would love for stuff to be deleted .

bb_matt

07-09-2005, 07:28 PM

i'm sure I'd love to punch you in the face.

Vio

07-09-2005, 07:32 PM

i'm sure I'd love to punch you in the face.
ownage :D

nocilah

07-09-2005, 07:35 PM

i'm sure I'd love to punch you in the face.

ha ha ha ha

2 things

i'm sure you punch like a fag.

you couldn't afford it.

alacos

07-09-2005, 09:07 PM

alacos i am sure you would love for stuff to be deleted .
No, I wouldn't. But dominic seems to think that "political" matter ought to be banned or deleted from the forum threads because it "detracts from the stated purpose of the forum" -- i.e. because it's irrelevant.

I don't agree with him -- and I don't think that anything should be deleted unless it's really very offensive or dangerous. That's what we've been discussing here.

BUT if dominic isn't happy with that then my point is that if you're going to delete some "irrelevant" stuff then you'd better delete all of it (at regular intervals) rather than risk treating some peoples' "irrelevant" postings as more irrelevant than those of others.

Except in the most extreme of circumstances, I'm actually very much against any form of forum "censorship".

Michael Alachouzos

nocilah

07-09-2005, 09:16 PM

No, I wouldn't. But dominic seems to think that "political" matter ought to be banned or deleted from the forum threads because it "detracts from the stated purpose of the forum" -- i.e. because it's irrelevant.

I don't agree with him -- and I don't think that anything should be deleted unless it's really very offensive or dangerous. That's what we've been discussing here.

BUT if dominic isn't happy with that then my point is that if you're going to delete some "irrelevant" stuff then you'd better delete all of it (at regular intervals) rather than risk treating some peoples' "irrelevant" postings as more irrelevant than others.

Except in the most extreme of circumstances, I'm actually very much against any form of forum "censorship".

Michael Alachouzos

i was being sarcastic in my last post.

i think race has no place on myadsl and neither does politics unless it is directly related to communications, or else one will get posts occuring that will go on forever cuz lets face it... everyone has their view of politics...

so yeah dont take that post serious... i should have added a smiley face there eh.

Faille

08-09-2005, 01:52 AM

I request that political-religious topics be more closely moderated.

VQuest

08-09-2005, 07:07 AM

I request that political-religious topics be more closely moderated.

I totally agree. But then you'll get people bitching and moaning because posts are being edited or deleted by mods. You simply can't win - there will always be someone moaning about something. (And funnily enough it's usually the same people who do the moaning). Thats why I am for the banning of religious/political discussion unless it's about broadband/Telkom, etc. Actually, religion should be banned altogether, as it has absolutely no place on a broadband forum. Although I'm not apposed to sub forums - one for religious discussion and one for political discussion. Then we'd have a choice whether to read it or not - I would chose not to.

LoneGunman

08-09-2005, 07:24 AM

bb_matt

08-09-2005, 08:12 AM

(Sticks and stones may break my bones - but words will never hurt me.)

My Mom taught me that after my first school fight. Although words have hurt me since, they almost always have to be carefully guided "missile" words that only family or close friends can release :D ("I know your deepest darkest fears")

What strikes me as fairly humourous, is that we're talking about not having political discussion on this forum, which means we can't talk about ICASA, the governments involvement in Telecomms, we can't mention any other political parties stance on Telecomms. We can't talk about job creation via Telecomms related to politics.

We can't talk about "previously disadvantaged" people gaining access to cheaper phones because it enters political territory.

Silly isn't it ?

Personally I think we should ban topics about banning topics.

Or how about we make the entire forum a Wiki - everyones a moderator ! :D

ajak

08-09-2005, 08:47 AM

My Mom taught me that after my first school fight. Although words have hurt me since, they almost always have to be carefully guided "missile" words that only family or close friends can release :D ("I know your deepest darkest fears")

What strikes me as fairly humourous, is that we're talking about not having political discussion on this forum, which means we can't talk about ICASA, the governments involvement in Telecomms, we can't mention any other political parties stance on Telecomms. We can't talk about job creation via Telecomms related to politics.

We can't talk about "previously disadvantaged" people gaining access to cheaper phones because it enters political territory.

Silly isn't it ?

Personally I think we should ban topics about banning topics.

Or how about we make the entire forum a Wiki - everyones a moderator ! :D

NO NO Tell a story, say I have a friend that lives overseas (I don’t want to mention the country (And then you can tell us what you friend says about where he lives you know, discrimination, the f1t1p TEL system. You get my drift

dominic

08-09-2005, 08:51 AM

No, I wouldn't. But dominic seems to think that "political" matter ought to be banned or deleted from the forum threads because it "detracts from the stated purpose of the forum" -- i.e. because it's irrelevant.

I don't agree with him -- and I don't think that anything should be deleted unless it's really very offensive or dangerous. That's what we've been discussing here.

BUT if dominic isn't happy with that then my point is that if you're going to delete some "irrelevant" stuff then you'd better delete all of it (at regular intervals) rather than risk treating some peoples' "irrelevant" postings as more irrelevant than those of others.

Except in the most extreme of circumstances, I'm actually very much against any form of forum "censorship".

Michael Alachouzos
you do me no great service in your representation of my position

it is simply a matter of does it belong on this forum - as early as my second post i took the emotion out of the argument and said even a statement would do...

i get that it is a fine line which someone has to draw - it happens here all the time and increasingly leads to dissension - is there another way? you would have very offensive and dangerous posts deleted so you are obviously quite prepared to draw that line according to your personal take

dominic

08-09-2005, 08:55 AM

What strikes me as fairly humourous, is that we're talking about not having political discussion on this forum, which means we can't talk about ICASA, the governments involvement in Telecomms, we can't mention any other political parties stance on Telecomms. We can't talk about job creation via Telecomms related to politics.

We can't talk about "previously disadvantaged" people gaining access to cheaper phones because it enters political territory.

Silly isn't it ?

Personally I think we should ban topics about banning topics.

Or how about we make the entire forum a Wiki - everyones a moderator ! :Dbb_matt you need to reread the thread - where it specifically states that issues around ICASA and government's involvement in telecoms is obviously obviously relevant

so yes it would be very silly to do what you have stated but nobody is asking for that are they?

then i would ask you to reread the thread qand look at your response to halicon's post - you think everything is cool here and that you are so immune to the words

i concede that i should not have mentioned nukes or banning but hey we all get upset by something...but i cannot believe that you do not know what i am on about and what upsets me abd obviously upsets a large number of people on the board

dominic

08-09-2005, 09:02 AM

Forumites are representative of the new South Africa and its citizens, who are completely unused to the idea and practise of genuine Democracy.
Not the fake rubbish that the ANC is trying to say is 'democracy'.

Real democracy is tolerating the views of people who despise you, hate you, think your G*d is a ****er, your skin colour makes you subhuman etc etc.

This means 'tolerating other peoples evil, racist, stupid and hate-filled idea's'

Not relying on crying and running to mommy, the State, the Mods, just because someones said something that's hurt their 'dignity' or anything else.

***** your 'dignity'.

Democracy isn't a Big Mommy there to protect your own ideas of self worth, or ethnic superiority/inferiority.

Democracy means tolerating and defending the right of people to say the things that
you find utterly offensive.

Tough sh*t if it hurts your belief system or thought patterns. You're an adult, with supposedly a thick skin.

Behave like an adult, and get used to people saying things that you hate - whether its about your politics, your religion, your mother, the Holocaust - whatever.

Shrug it off, and pat yourself on the head, because now you're learning to live by
democratic principles.. namely 'tolerance'. Not reliance on some parental authoritarian idea that you have the right to go wah wah wah at your Mommy because someone insulted your race, your religion, your whatever..

Reliance on utterly fascist and intrusive anti-democratic legislation, and believing that you're entitled to go wah wah wah at every little negative hate-filled comment, means you're not an adult, you're just a big child who can't even cope with maintaining your own point of view without running to mommy and daddy or the State, or the Mods, to make the nasty point of view go away.

Grow up, folks.

(Sticks and stones may break my bones - but words will never hurt me.)
this is not really relevant is it? and its not personal either - about what i take offense to or not (and i take offense to very very little)...we are not talking about robust debate and whether people can handle it and yes mist of us are adults on the forum

you may also go and reread the thread (ffs)
- its not about censorship
- its not about tolerance

its about is this the appropriate place to have discussions about divisive issues which have nothing to do with telecomms and which imo harm the forum more than it gains

for years there have been political discussions without massive flame wars and without extremist spec being littered all over the place - what has changed and should anything be done about it? I say yes i do think at the very least some kind of statement or strategy needs to be put in place to REFOCUS the forum on its primary mission

and "**** you4r dignity" illustrates that you conception of freedom of speech is also a coloured one - it is not an absolute right which rides roughshod over dignity and which is appropriate in every place...

dominic

08-09-2005, 09:03 AM

sldkjvgfbpqwjvbgfpqjvgbf

now nicely warmed up for meeting with telkom lawyers...

nocilah

08-09-2005, 09:22 AM

lately i have been expressing my views out right, not racist and not political but more about how elements of this forum and how forumites behave and people have either been behaving like kids who are 'deeply' offended and sulking or like censorship officials deleting anything objectional... or of course making childish 'legal' threats :rolleyes:

but when i follow these kinds of threads i see kids trying to be all adult like...

i agree with LGM's post. What makes a forum a forum are people. Some subjects are going to open cans of worms... especially along race lines and political lines... this is something ALL south africans have been granted without fear of being locked up unlike the older days.

I think if some people can not offer anything valid, or if it offends them then stand up for who you are or ignore it... i mean half the stuff said on this forum is going to offend another half... but then i dont think everyone who comes here is going to be a kid about it either.

if anything this forum should only allow 18 years or older to join considering all the goings on.

dominic

08-09-2005, 09:33 AM

i agree with LGM's post. What makes a forum a forum are people. Some subjects are going to open cans of worms... especially along race lines and political lines... this is something ALL south africans have been granted without fear of being locked up unlike the older days.

I think if some people can not offer anything valid, or if it offends them then stand up for who you are or ignore it... i mean half the stuff said on this forum is going to offend another half... but then i dont think everyone who comes here is going to be a kid about it either.

if anything this forum should only allow 18 years or older to join considering all the goings on.yes we are now all free to express ourselves - does that mean it is appropriate to express ourselves on whatever we want to whenever and wherever we want to?

Raithlin

08-09-2005, 09:40 AM

Man, oh man.

I've just read 5 pages of a thread that started out well, managed to keep the topic kind of on course for 4 pages, then was hijacked - unsuccessfully, I might add.

There are countless forums on the 'net. Personally, I visit one for religious discussion (www.christianforums.com) - as you can see, it is meant for it. I came to MyADSL just before I got iBurst, primarily for the technical knowledge being shared at the time. I frequent MyADSL on a daily basis, participate in the tests, support the various groups, etc. because I see a future in this country of ours, assuming we can get past Telkom.

Unfortunately, the general attitude of some (not all) forumites has dropped over the past few months. I used to read some 60-70% of all posts (Well, there's no point in reading the MyWireless forum, is there?), but that has slowly dropped to about 30%. I enjoy reading the Off-topic posts - well, most of them. If I find a thread that is derailed or specifically a flamewar, etc. then I go elsewhere.

I smiled as I read this thread. It is good to know that some of you still care about the site. I'm also sure that rpm is well aware of the issues being discussed here - as are all the mods. My only concern, as a participant on these forums, is that I start to miss out on something I could have used in my daily struggle with the overfed telecom operator (Yes, I inform my friends, associates, family, etc. on a daily basis as to what is going on). At that point the owner and moderators will have to either take a hard stand, or say goodbye (Hello www.myOtherADSL.co.za?). :rolleyes:

To RPM, mods: I don't envy you. As a forum owner and ex-mod myself, I know how difficult your position is.

To the rest of you: Watch that your enthusiasm for a freer world doesn't translate into personalised responses - and try to restrain yourself from derailing a purposeful thread with pointless attacks on your current online opponent.

nocilah

08-09-2005, 09:47 AM

yes we are now all free to express ourselves - does that mean it is appropriate to express ourselves on whatever we want to whenever and wherever we want to?

depends on the forum... off topic perhaps within reason.

obvioulsy things like racism, anti-religion should be avoided or very strictly moderated... but this ofcourse opens up things like gripes sections and so forth...

so in a nutshell dominic... depends on the forum and what the owner chooses...

this forum... within reason, unless it is satire i am sure we are all grown up enough for some satire.

bb_matt

08-09-2005, 09:49 AM

Fair enough dominic - I missed that one post where you feel talking about politics related to telecomms is fine.

I'm just glad your not running this place as no matter how you try to dress your opinions up, they still smack of censorship.

All the recent "troubles" have had little to do with politics and more to do with moderator decisions, so your concern that political discussion is causing problems here is unwarranted in my opinion.

Yes, there are other places to discuss these issues, but they are nowhere near as good as here, not as popular and don't contain as many intelligent people.

Just take a look at some of the other popular forums in South Africa and find yourself mired in a land of 15 year olds and idiots.

As for my post to Halicon, hey - I thought it was funny at the time. Humour is always good.

dominic

08-09-2005, 10:12 AM

I'm just glad your not running this place as no matter how you try to dress your opinions up, they still smack of censorship. i am also glad i am not running the place - i just get to carp on about how i think it should be run :)

censorship or not? i believe it is more a question of how much harm are you prepared to tolerate and setting rules and standards for what is appropriate in the opinion of those who run the iste

All the recent "troubles" have had little to do with politics and more to do with moderator decisions, so your concern that political discussion is causing problems here is unwarranted in my opinion.i accept that - there were three particular threads / posts which p1ssed me off at the time i made the initial post.

Yes, there are other places to discuss these issues, but they are nowhere near as good as here, not as popular and don't contain as many intelligent people.

Just take a look at some of the other popular forums in South Africa and find yourself mired in a land of 15 year olds and idiots.i agree and hence my concern - right or wrong

As for my post to Halicon, hey - I thought it was funny at the time. Humour is always good.missed that completely - but people are missing each other after the recent troubles

bb_matt

08-09-2005, 10:15 AM

censorship or not? i believe it is more a question of how much harm are you prepared to tolerate and setting rules and standards for what is appropriate in the opinion of those who run the site.

I'd go along with that - definately remove elements from a post that could bring MyADSL into disrepute.

This is why the report bad post feature is useful as the Mods can't be everywhere all the time and finding good mods is damn difficult. Not many people are able to keep their impartiality when dealing with a forum.

nocilah

08-09-2005, 10:56 AM

As for my post to Halicon, hey - I thought it was funny at the time. Humour is always good.

i gotta admit that was complete ownage on your behalf :D

you luckily the myadsl lawyers dont like me cuz i would have er... layed a charge of something or other on you :D

nocilah

08-09-2005, 10:57 AM

I will probably censor this post of mine later on, for apparently no reason whatsoever, but for the moment here is:

<my_personal_opinion>
Religious dicussions have nothing to do with broadband, and praying her Poisonous Ivyness will cut the puppeteer's strings [that presumably control her every inactivity], and get a brain, is just not going to work.

Discussing some racial issues [e.g. AA, BEE, ICT charter definitions etc] IMO does not help South Africa get better broadband, but there are a lot of IT people who are affected by these issues and they happen to spend a lot of time on MyADSL. Trying to change things like ICASA's VANS BEE requirements is like pissing into the wind...

Discussing politics in general, usually ends up with just about everyone disagreeing with one another, and usually someone will say that racism abounds, and the sky is falling in...:rolleyes:...and everyone - especially moderators end up with headaches and time wasted on heated discussions that have nothing to do broadband in SA...

Discussing political issues as they relate to broadband in SA, is essential to drive change, discussing the political backpocket where TelkoDemonopoly lives, is also essential...

That said, there is irrelevant stuff that doesn't help, our community or SA as a whole, get better broadband in SA. My conclusion: have a sub-forum of Off Topic called "Pointless Discussions"...</my_personal_opinion>

i think you should be a mod. :D