SA prophet Kim Clement Nutcase on TBN.org

[captainwifi]

I am watching TNB.org over the net and they have this nut from SA Kim Clement talking the biggest load of rubbish about how he predicted the flood in the USA. His so-called tongues also fails Popper's falsification test as does the rest of the hucksters, tongue speaking on tbn.org.

Christianity in the USA has turned into the biggest legalized Ponzi scam in
the world. And ofcourse not a word of rebuttal from AFM (AGS), NG Kerk or a single church leader in South-Africa about this nonsense. The audacity of
Tbn.org to claim after the event that they had a prophetic word of the
disaster in the Usa is unbelievable.

[Scooby_Doo]

There are thousands of so called "Prophets" in the world, if they all "predict" something to happen, one of them is bound to get lucky and guess right.

[captainwifi]

My favourite is 'prophet' Kobus van Rensburg at www.spiritword.org.za
His english grammar is so infantile that even mine is better. His 'prophecies'
are striking for it's peurility, repetition,declamation and logical incoherence. And he is downright dangerous he lets people with serious back problems run around, claiming that they are healed. No, they are not healed. They had their pain temp. relieved through auto suggestion and hypnosis. Tomorrow the pain is back. In the Bible Christ healed people instantaniously. Spiritword can't give me a single medical report of a healing.

Psychiatrists use hypnosis in cancer patients to give them temporary
pain relief. The cancer might even go into recession, but hypnosis is not
magic, which is why these people won't be actually healed.

A hipnotherapist I spoke to explained to me that hypnosis is used as a tool
to help people who have been through severe trauma. By going in to the
subconscious mind the healing process is compressed from say 3 years
to a few sessions under hypnosis.

Benny Hinn who said that "***** became one with Satan" hypnotises
himself infront of a giant mirror before going on stage. He 'slays' people be
cause they have been conditioned to be receptive to 'going down' when
he want's them to. There is nothing magical or strange about this though.
Secular hipnotists can also 'slay' suggestive people in the audience when
they do stage hypnosis. These stage hypnotists atleast respect the Holy
Spirit enough to not claim that He as the third person of the God-head
did it.

Reading Acts it is clear that the single phenomena that marked the presence
of the Holy Spirit was speaking in tongues, not people passed out on the
flour which also happens in voodooism. What is extremely disturbing are
that the people who were prayed over by hucksters like Hinn's and 'talked in tongues', speak a sort of meaningless babble that also occurs in Shamanism and Voodooism.

[P0tenc]

You ppl should try get your hands on Penn & Teller. It's a series bout 2 guys going around proving all these wakos wrong. It's really funny.

[Jarrod]

My personal feeling is that these "prophets" issue is a bunch of BS. If I make 500 vague statements a few of them will come true. It all comes down to human nature. Humans always want to believe in something.

[captainwifi]

If you listen carefully when a person is speaking in tongues on TV, you will notice that it is always +-3s in length. Linguists who study languages tell us that it is very easy to engage in some babble for 3s. Robert Tillton was exposed as a fraud who stole peoples 'seed money' on camera. He took the money and then throwed away the prayer request. He sued the TV station who exposed him but lost the case in court. He spoke in tongues, but always no longer then 3s.

Kennith Hagin claimed to have seen Christ over 10 times, but on page 29 of his book
"The name of *****" which he plagiarised , he states: "Physical death would
not remove our sins" which directly contradicts Paul's gospel of Cor/Gal where
Paul states that he preaches:"Christ and him crucified"
Or Romans 5 "... now being justified by his blood". Or in other words Paul says
"...now being justified by his physical death on the cross".
Interesting that Paul said that if any man brings another Gospel:"Let him be accursed"
in Galatians.

Some Galatians rejected the blood sacrifice of Christ(and they could all speak real tongues) by having them circumcised. But Paul only used circumcision as a metaphor for rejecting the only means of salvation: The cross of Christ.

For a modern day Christian to state like Hinn, Copeland, Hagin that Christ
became sin or died spiritually would then just like the Galatians reject Christ's sacrifice. Thousands of born-again Christians have had their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, by blaspheming the blood of Christ even though they had good intentions. So did the Galatians and Paul told them that they had lost their salvation.

We now even have rock bands in church. Some services resemble a Jazz concert. It's no wonder that nobody can speak in real tongues and that nobody is being babtized in the Holy Spirit as was clearly the case in Acts.

The biggest scam are pastors teaching people that they can bribe God by
giving a tenth of their income. Pat Robertson who wants Chavez 'taken out'
dabbles in horse racing
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.christian.pentecostal/browse_thread/thread/eddc36cd4addf58d/ab50c4753fb6db1b#ab50c4753fb6db1b
And ofcourse not a word from Isak Burger concerning all this.

99% of modern Christian Glossolalia/Voodooism is a phonetic variation of a vocabularly of 40 words that is chanted in a loop. A language consists of at least 5000 words. Winston Churchill knew 15000 words in English. English has over one million words. Linguistically the tongues are chanted in rappid
succession with no intonation and very little vocalization.
The words also are not found in any language. The convient
excuse are that it is then angelic tongues, but nobody has heard angels
speak so we can't falsify the claim of a person's tongues if it makes
no linguistic sense. Little green men might paint the sky blue every morning
, how would anybody prove that they don't? Man 'evolved' from a
common ancestor between ape and man. Since nobody was there to
witness it so we can't falsify the claim and what is 'evolved' supposed to mean?

What would be truly miraculous would be a person clearly speaking in a
language (not some demonic voodoo chant) while reading a book at the
same time and writing down what he has just read. One would also want
to do an MRI scan of such a person and perhaps test him for Schizophrenia.

His mind must not be engaged in what he is saying, but also must not
be in some sort of trance either.

[tibby.dude]

Benny Hinn who said that "***** became one with Satan" hypnotises himself infront of a giant mirror before going on stage.

He is a heretic and practices necromancy.

Here is some of his "revelations" over the years

"Each one of them is a tribune being by Himself...there's nine of them" (Benny Hinn, TBN, 3rd October 1990).

"God the Father is a person separate from the Holy Ghost. Totally separate. ...Do you know that the Holy Spirit has a soul and a body separate from that of ***** and the Father? ...God the Father then is a triune being within Himself. He's a person, He has a soul. ...A soul is an intellect. ...God thinks ...separate from the Son and separate from the Holy Ghost. ...God the Father is a separate individual from the Son and the Holy Ghost, who is a triune being who walks in a spirit body and He has hair...has eyes...has a mouth...has hands" (Orlando Christian Centre, October 13th 1990).

In the old days they would have burned him at the stake for such nonsense.

On to his necromancy (consulting with the dead)

From the very inception of his ministry, Hinn has had a penchant and an obsession with the late Kuhlman. Hinn has publicly stated that Kuhlman’s grave carries a supernatural “anointing.” He alleges the same effect from the body and grave of Aimee Semple McPherson. The theatrical, twice divorced McPherson, who probably died by suicide, is hardly a model of Christian anointing.10

During a sermon on the Holy Spirit, Hinn offered the following, eerie, testimonial:

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. ... I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. ... And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11

Read further at http://www.pfo.org/bhnecro.htm

[tibby.dude]

Hmmm a "religion"-type discussion...please everyone make sure that no holy wars or crusades get declared against the forum as a result of differing opinions :).

Now what is the worst that could happen ... just a stoning or a burning at the stake ;)

[arf9999]

This thread is entirely too tame...eveyone seems to agree with each other - in a religious discussion!

So here goes, this should liven things up: Why should these nutcases be any worse than the rest of the rabid christian fundamentalists, or catholics, or islamic fundamentalists, or pretty much any other organised religion anywhere in the world? FFS, we're not wearing skins and living in caves...



By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
-- Richard Dawkins, in "Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder," The Richard Dimbleby Lecture, BBC1 Television (12 November 1996)

edit (I like this one!):
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins

[captainwifi]

"[T]he geological record features episodes of high dying, during which extinction-prone groups are more likely to disappear, leaving extinction-resistant groups as life's legacy."
S.J. Gould & N. Eldredge, "Punctuated equilibrium comes of age", Nature (1993) 366:223-7, p. 225.
Anyone wants to tell me how this "extinction-proneness" was measured, except by noting that the groups went extinct?
Gould said that the mind is an illusion created by the brain. So Gould believed his thoughts were illusions, why should we then believe anything he said.?
Gould differs diametrically with Dawkins over the fossil record.

[arf9999]

...umm and your point is?

[captainwifi]

From a Frog to a Prince. Dawkins made a complete fool of himself, he couldn't
answer a basic question. He requested the cameraman to switch of the camera
so he could think about the question. What Dawkins didn't know was that a second
camera was there filming the whole incident.
http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/index.php?title=CB102.1

You can watch the entire video online here:
http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/from_frog_toprince.html

[jarr]

hoo boy, a "religious" thread, and one about the prophetic, no less - very brave of you, cap'n ;)

i didn't see the program, and i've never actually heard Kim Clement speak in any meetings, so i can't really comment on that, but i do know that lots of people will vouch for him (including me :) )...

i'm not commenting here in order to fight, though (sorry, arf9999).
just wanted to stand up for the "cooks" out there... :)

[sparklehorse]

If you listen carefully when a person is speaking in tongues on TV, you will notice that it is always +-3s in length. Linguists who study languages tell us that it is very easy to engage in some babble for 3s. Robert Tillton was exposed as a fraud who stole peoples 'seed money' on camera. He took the money and then throwed away the prayer request. He sued the TV station who exposed him but lost the case in court. He spoke in tongues, but always no longer then 3s.

99% of modern Christian Glossolalia/Voodooism is a phonetic variation of a vocabularly of 40 words that is chanted in a loop. A language consists of at least 5000 words. Winston Churchill knew 15000 words in English. English has over one million words. Linguistically the tongues are chanted in rappid
succession with no intonation and very little vocalization.
The words also are not found in any language. The convient
excuse are that it is then angelic tongues, but nobody has heard angels
speak so we can't falsify the claim of a person's tongues if it makes
no linguistic sense. Little green men might paint the sky blue every morning
, how would anybody prove that they don't? Man 'evolved' from a
common ancestor between ape and man. Since nobody was there to
witness it so we can't falsify the claim and what is 'evolved' supposed to mean?

What would be truly miraculous would be a person clearly speaking in a
language (not some demonic voodoo chant) while reading a book at the
same time and writing down what he has just read. One would also want
to do an MRI scan of such a person and perhaps test him for Schizophrenia.

His mind must not be engaged in what he is saying, but also must not
be in some sort of trance either.
some more here (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/glossolalia.html)

[sparklehorse]

Ummm Slimothy, care to use the quote button occasionally - just so we all know what planet you're on at the time of posting? :)
I don't think it was nessesary to quote - seems to me his post was to most of the people who posted in general ;)

[captainwifi]

Mark 16 Christ said:"And they that believe, with new tongues shall they speak..."
In Acts2 when they did speak in tongues it was clearly understood by the people from other nations. This directly lead to the conversion of them to Christianity. Throughout Acts it is clear that speaking in tongues was the single most miracalous sign that generated 'shock and awh' throughout the Roman empire.

Today Christianity is not a whif of what it was then. The question is why?
Instead we had the 'Toronto blessing' where people 'cackled like chickens' , 'barked like dogs' and I have a video of Kennith Hagin laughing at a women 'mooing like a cow' in one of his services. Paul Crouch can't give anybody a single financial statement We have no idea what he does with the money donated to www.tbn.org And notice the cheap emotional manipulation on their site:"The smile of a child"

When George W Bush Jr was asked a respectably, strait forward question by a Journalist:"Do you believe that ***** Christ is the only way to God ...." , he said that no he does not. So why does everybody insist that he is a Christian when Christ himself said:"If you deny me, I will deny you before the Father and the angels" ? I saw this on CNN in 2005, it is not an exact
quote but something to this effect.

And I remember the 'gold dust' phenomena where mostly elderly people suddenly discovered they had a gold infilling. How cruel can one be. All that happend is that they have entered the first stages of dementia and Altzheimers and have simply forgotten that the dentist put it there when they were 20. Instead Isak Burger, Billy Graham said nothing to stop tbn.org from making Christians look like a bunch of senile old fools.

[captainwifi]

some more here (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/glossolalia.html)

Just one slight point. The only true translation are the manuscripts
used for the Old King James. unfortunately no modern translation exists,
we only have the archaic english of the 17th century.
Do a google search on Gail Riplinger.
KJV version:
I Cor 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto
men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit
he speaketh mysteries."
Randi's version:
1 Corinthians 14:2 "...when a man is using the language of ecstasy he is talking with God, not with men, for no man understands him."
KJV version:
Acts 2:4"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

[arf9999]

From a Frog to a Prince. Dawkins made a complete fool of himself, he couldn't
answer a basic question. He requested the cameraman to switch of the camera
so he could think about the question. What Dawkins didn't know was that a second
camera was there filming the whole incident.
http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/index.php?title=CB102.1

You can watch the entire video online here:
http://www.nwcreation.net/videos/from_frog_toprince.html
capt'n,

You miss my point. I'm not arguing for or against evolution. I don't really care to dignify the debate. What I am saying is that organised religion is a sham, perpertrated by conmen and hucksters for millenia. There is no difference to me between an Amazonian shaman and an NG Kerk dominee. It is a confidence trick. If someone tells you to have faith in something that they themselves cannot demonstrate - they are abusing your good nature.

And, before the happy-clappies come crawling out of the woodwork trying to convince me that my soul is going to burn in hell - it won't, I don't have one (in the sense that you think I do, although I do have rhythm:)) and hell doesn't exist. Death is just that, death. That's it, there is nothing else.

[jarr]

When George Bush was asked a respectably, strait forward question by a
Journalist:"Do you believe that ***** Christ is the only way to God ...."
, he said that no he does not. just out of interest sake, was that George Snr or George W?
also, do you have a url for this perhaps?

[captainwifi]

Check out http://www.kimclement.com/ his site.
Read his crackpot 'prophecy'. And notice the backwards grammar he wants
to pass of as that of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can speak proper English
mr. Clement. One wonders what would it take for www.rhema.co.za to comment on this tripe.
From www.rhema.co.za
"The pinnacle of the evening was a massive confetti shower. Silver and white confetti mixed with pink feathers showered the congregation from two powerful confetti guns and carpeted the entire front area of the stage, which remained on the floor for the rest of the conference."
O, boy who want's to know what they think. 'Confetti showers'
How corny...

[captainwifi]

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb.
Read further at http://www.pfo.org/bhnecro.htm

Kathryn Khulman was a Roman catholic mystic who hypnotized people who
had arthritis to give them temporary pain relief. Arthritis is an auto-immune disease that is particularly susceptible to having the symptoms temporarily relieved via hypnosis. All of her 'healings' mainly involved arthritic patients who cringed in pain the next day from manipulating arthritic joints, they thought were healed.

Oral Roberts prayed for Khulman in hospital before she died of heart failure.
Roberts pulled a little stunt a few years ago when a conned and old fool to give him a few million dollars by claiming that if he doesn't get the money before a certain date God will kill him! And the church world is just silent on this, no a word of condemnation, not a peep. Go ahead and confront your pastor with this stuff. He will try and fudge the issues or even have the gal to warn you not to have a 'negative spirit'. If any pastor of the AGS were to denounce Roberts for making Christians look like guitar strumming
Hillbillies with green teeth , he will be fired. The modern church is a business, it's run like a business and in business you try your best not to offend people. You build yourself a 'corporate image'. And the truth? Who cares about the truth, just get the money in. The truth be damned, just ask doctors
violating their ethics by selling homeopathy quack medicine.
http://www.quackwatch.org/

[dominic]

i deny that uninet had anything to do with it

[LoneGunman]

I love the way that 'official' crazies - the nutcases who believe in a big (non-scary) real 'holy' ghost who 'made everything' and is watching us - and who supposedly sent 'his son' down to get killed in agony to demonstrate why we should not buy stuff on sundays - THIS is considered 'normal' - yet the slightly more neurotic weirdo's who take this whole religion thing seriously and start channeling the Ghost, are considered 'nutcases' :P

[LAMB]

Hello All:

The Word "nutcase" is used to describe individuals who are not of a Sound Mind. It is a derogatory word and it is not even used by psychiatrists. Intelligent women and men operate in the realm of the "INVISIBLE" Even the most rational human beings [scientists] must operate in the "Realm of the Unseen"...particularly physicists. Physics is closely linked to the field of metaphysics. If you are familiar with the philosphers Kant and Hegel, then you will become aware of the close linkage between metaphysics and physics.

Human beings judge harshly, what they fail to understand. I suggest that you can come up with a different adjective for describing this Man who is a Prophet, a Writer, a Husband, a Father, a Musician, a Singer, a Businessman and the Voice to many fameous People including the President and other politicians, actors, rap artists and other Hollywood Stars...

I do not need to convince anybody of his importance. The world has embraced Him. He has a High Seat of Recognition. Would you be surprised if he was invited to a Dance by The President and The First Lady? This should not surprise you. It should not surprise you if he speaks to Kings.

I suggest you alter your adjective. It is an innapropriate and innacurate word choice to use in describing a man who is one of the most influential and important voices to America...and the Nations.

Yours Very Truly,
Righteous Lamb

*I do not give myself false honor. That is exactly what my name means. Rachel=Lamb and Reiter=Righteous...and there is an Eagle in the middle [for Patriotism and Liberty].

[LandyMan]

13 months later and the thread lives again ... bleh!

[sparklehorse]

...and there is an Eagle in the middle
lol

[arf9999]

Intelligent women and men operate in the realm of the "INVISIBLE" Even the most rational human beings [scientists] must operate in the "Realm of the Unseen"...particularly physicists. Physics is closely linked to the field of metaphysics. If you are familiar with the philosphers Kant and Hegel, then you will become aware of the close linkage between metaphysics and physics.
I'm not sure I want to get into a debate with someone that says that "Physics is closely linked to the field of metaphysics"... by definition "Metaphysics" means "after nature" or "beyond nature". I'm very aware of Kant's philosophy, but unfortunately his teachings (as important as they are in relation to ethics and morals) do not prove the existence of a god.


Human beings judge harshly, what they fail to understand. I suggest that you can come up with a different adjective for describing this Man who is a Prophet, a Writer, a Husband, a Father, a Musician, a Singer, a Businessman and the Voice to many fameous People including the President and other politicians, actors, rap artists and other Hollywood Stars... why?


I do not need to convince anybody of his importance. and yet you post...

The world has embraced Him. He has a High Seat of Recognition. Would you be surprised if he was invited to a Dance by The President and The First Lady? You're not exactly helping your case here.


While I am the last person to support the cap'n, it seems that in his own delusions he has hit upon a real truth. How about you go sell crazy somewhere else?

[LandyMan]

the Voice to many fameous People including the President and other politicians, actors, rap artists and other Hollywood Stars...


Bwahahahaha. Have you seen what Hollywood gets up to after dark. So either he is talking rubbish in their ears, or they are not listening. My money is on the first option.

[william f. sills]

Oh My,captainwifi,you don`t have a clue what you are talking about. You are already too late by 34yrs in my case alone.When a person does not know about a subject please ask. Do not remain ignorant.

[nthdimension]

From a Frog to a Prince. Dawkins made a complete fool of himself, he couldn't
answer a basic question.
Well established that this was a fabrication. The bad editing is so obvious.

[Chatmaster]

Clearly Google has contributed to the revival of this thread... Do not see this many 1 posters in one thread that often...

[patrick]

You guys are too serious, here's the real prophetic message:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvL2zXKjLrc

[Mr TB]

People watch TBN for reasons. If you are sceptic concerning tongues, well John Sherill also untill he landed in hospital with a nice lump in his throat. Cancer you know... Read his book "They speak in other tongues" rather than fire darts at fellow christians...

[lilDeath]

We are going through a serious patch of "old thread"-revival... :rolleyes:
/sigh

Even the mods are doing it :p :D

[arf9999]

People watch TBN for reasons. If you are sceptic concerning tongues, well John Sherill also untill he landed in hospital with a nice lump in his throat. Cancer you know... Read his book "They speak in other tongues" rather than fire darts at fellow christians...Well, I'm an atheist, so I'll fire all the darts I want. "speaking in tongues" is either a sham or mass hysteria/hypnosis.

[JBFRobisher]

Well, I'm an atheist, so I'll fire all the darts I want. "speaking in tongues" is either a sham or mass hysteria/hypnosis.

I'm with you there. If you have ever seen a church full of the faithful trying to show that they too "have the gift" and blabbering away baby gibberish at the tops of their voices, you would have seen an intriguing mass of self-delusion.

[Captain Beer]

I really want to go to one of these places one day. Then take my clothes off and run around shouting at everyone.

[mancombseepgood]

I really want to go to one of these places one day. Then take my clothes off and run around shouting at everyone.

.

[mancombseepgood]

All of her 'healings' mainly involved arthritic patients who cringed in pain the next day from manipulating arthritic joints, they thought were healed.[/url]

Not that I agree with any of these guys you have listed, but posting proof may make you more credible... so far it sounds little more than a rant.

[mancombseepgood]

I love the way that 'official' crazies - the nutcases who believe in a big (non-scary) real 'holy' ghost who 'made everything' and is watching us - and who supposedly sent 'his son' down to get killed in agony to demonstrate why we should not buy stuff on sundays

Is this what you preach?

[Captain Beer]

.

fully.

[Syndyre]

You ppl should try get your hands on Penn & Teller. It's a series bout 2 guys going around proving all these wakos wrong. It's really funny.

it's a brilliant show!

[Mr TB]

Now that we have some attention. I agree counterfeits there are but it is worthwhile to get hold of the real thing because after your physical death your Savior will become your Judge...

Moses throw his rod on the ground and it turned into a snake , the Egyptian performed the same...
Moses let the water turn to blood , the magicians did the same. He reversed the process, they could not. The same with the frogs...
God through the plagues proved to the arrogant Egyptians that He is God Almighty. In this day man is arrogantly ignoring Him. Tsunamis, wars , HIV , is only part of the plagues in wings because of man's ignorance....

[nocilah]

Christianity in the USA has turned into the biggest legalized Ponzi scam in the world.

Christianity is no longer a religion or a faith but rather a lifestyle with a brand and brand leaders in that market place.

best brand leader in SA is Rhema(or whateva they called now) with it's CEO Ray.

[Mr TB]

I need an explanation for Ponzi, Is it wrong for Christians to be rich?
How will the Gospel reach the ends of the earth without money?
Remember God choose to spread the Good News through Human Beings. He chose that way. I am making this remark to Christians, not those who do not care. satan is clever and will use every trick to prevent us fulfilling the instructions given to us in the Bible.

[simple_simon]

The only true translation are the manuscripts
used for the Old King James. [/I]

i love it when people use that phrase "the only true..." you hear it a lot lately...people very sure of themselves that they know the only way.

and so mankind will continue to kill each other over knowing the "only true way" to god

[simple_simon]

what the frack is TBN

[Mr TB]

what the frack is TBN

TBN sir is channel 77 if you are privileged enough to have a dish. There you meet interesting characters like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, the Cahun, Creflo Dollar, Kim , Rodney Browne, Pual and Jen Crouch, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, Paula White.. Man the list is quite long... and you find out God is someone close to you not up there in heaven just waiting for chance to punish you...

[chiskop]

Creflo Dollar? You can't be serious.

Oh, you are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar). :p

[PostmanPot]

TBN sir is channel 77 if you are privileged enough to have a dish. There you meet interesting characters like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, the Cahun, Creflo Dollar, Kim , Rodney Browne, Pual and Jen Crouch, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, Paula White.. Man the list is quite long... and you find out God is someone close to you not up there in heaven just waiting for chance to punish you...

my god doesn't believe in punishing people :D

[arf9999]

Now that we have some attention. I agree counterfeits there are but it is worthwhile to get hold of the real thing because after your physical death your Savior will become your Judge...

Moses throw his rod on the ground and it turned into a snake , the Egyptian performed the same...
Moses let the water turn to blood , the magicians did the same. He reversed the process, they could not. The same with the frogs...
God through the plagues proved to the arrogant Egyptians that He is God Almighty. In this day man is arrogantly ignoring Him. Tsunamis, wars , HIV , is only part of the plagues in wings because of man's ignorance....

Dude, you need to go clapping somewhere else...

If you need a crutch to make the sense of the world, good for you. Please don't try sell it here.

[mancombseepgood]

Please don't try sell it here.
Why not arf9999? :D

[Captain Beer]

TBN sir is channel 77 if you are privileged enough to have a dish. There you meet interesting characters like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, the Cahun, Creflo Dollar, Kim , Rodney Browne, Pual and Jen Crouch, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, Paula White.. Man the list is quite long... and you find out God is someone close to you not up there in heaven just waiting for chance to punish you...

I think what you are trying to say is that TBN is horrible and should never be watched by anyone ;)

[Cara]

I need an explanation for Ponzi, Is it wrong for Christians to be rich?
How will the Gospel reach the ends of the earth without money?
Remember God choose to spread the Good News through Human Beings. He chose that way. I am making this remark to Christians, not those who do not care. satan is clever and will use every trick to prevent us fulfilling the instructions given to us in the Bible.

Christians can be rich but not pastors, they do not need to travel in a private leer jet to their meetings or wear Armani suits to tell people about the gospel. Plus they do not use that money to spread the gospel but to make themselves more comfortable. They must decide who they serve and it looks like money when I hear they live in million dollar houses and stay in the best hotels.

[rwenzori]

satan is clever and will use every trick to prevent us fulfilling the instructions given to us in the Bible.

He is too, sneaky bastard - hey! that's him standing right behind you douwdouw!

"And the L0rd spake unto Mishack 'Beware the devil and his evil ways, for he riseth up around you whilest you sleep like the weeds in the field, and his way is the way of damnation. Eternal death to those who follow his ways'". ( Hezbollah 16:22 ).

[Mr TB]

Dude, you need to go clapping somewhere else...

If you need a crutch to make the sense of the world, good for you. Please don't try sell it here.

Uhm well, people have crutches to cope with the world alcohol, drugs, tabaco, sex, you name it.. Uhm with all due respect ARF if mine then is my believes tell us what is yours? Sport maybe or the internet...?

[arf9999]

Uhm well, people have crutches to cope with the world alcohol, drugs, tabaco, sex, you name it.. Uhm with all due respect ARF if mine then is my believes tell us what is yours? Sport maybe or the internet...?

Where did I sell anything to you? I'm pretty well grounded in a rational, reasonable world. I don't need an invisible being and a promise of good things when I die to lead a fulfilled life.

[Mr TB]

Where did I sell anything to you? I'm pretty well grounded in a rational, reasonable world. I don't need an invisible being and a promise of good things when I die to lead a fulfilled life.

Uhmm, with all due respect ARF did I sell anything to you? No I do not think so, I gave a basic reason for the mess in this world, one that you can accept or ignore. You then attacked me calling my believes a crutch... true?

Second point is you call this a rational reasonable world...really? A world in which babies are raped, same sex marriages, pensioners murdered for the sake of it, hi-jackings... Have you been shot in the back or hi-jacked? Yes it is reasonable isn't it.....

[JBFRobisher]

My, my! Douwdouw does get quite aggressive in defence of his faith. Where is the LOVE, brother?

[Mr TB]

My, my! Douwdouw does get quite aggressive in defence of his faith. Where is the LOVE, brother?

No dear JBF I only believe the facts should be relayed correctly. Incorrect statements such as the one made by ARF will then be avoided. That is also one of the reasons why the Bible is applied incorrectly. People do not read and make assumptions causing confusion. This include our friend Kim Clement.

[arf9999]

Uhmm, with all due respect ARF did I sell anything to you? No I do not think so, I gave a basic reason for the mess in this world, one that you can accept or ignore. You then attacked me calling my believes a crutch... true?

Second point is you call this a rational reasonable world...really? A world in which babies are raped, same sex marriages, pensioners murdered for the sake of it, hi-jackings... Have you been shot in the back or hi-jacked? Yes it is reasonable isn't it.....

The world is rational, and people do unfortunately do bad things. Live with it. It's not G0d or Satan that is to blame, but if it makes you feel better - then you can believe it. Just please don't make out that the charlatans that promote evangelical Christianity are any better than any other religion/superstition. It's just mythology... but with a profit motive.

[simple_simon]

TBN sir is channel 77 if you are privileged enough to have a dish. There you meet interesting characters like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, the Cahun, Creflo Dollar, Kim , Rodney Browne, Pual and Jen Crouch, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, Paula White.. Man the list is quite long... and you find out God is someone close to you not up there in heaven just waiting for chance to punish you...

oh, sounds like *****' best friends.

i think i'll stay away.

[simple_simon]

Uhmm, with all due respect ARF did I sell anything to you? No I do not think so, I gave a basic reason for the mess in this world, one that you can accept or ignore. You then attacked me calling my believes a crutch... true?

Second point is you call this a rational reasonable world...really? A world in which babies are raped, same sex marriages, pensioners murdered for the sake of it, hi-jackings... Have you been shot in the back or hi-jacked? Yes it is reasonable isn't it.....

i just love it when religious nutters go on about same sex marriages....hello!! marriage isn't a christian/muslim/jewish ceremony only....marriage was around way before these religions popped up......its called paganism.

[Mr TB]

The world is rational, and people do unfortunately do bad things. Live with it. It's not G0d or Satan that is to blame, but if it makes you feel better - then you can believe it. Just please don't make out that the charlatans that promote evangelical Christianity are any better than any other religion/superstition. It's just mythology... but with a profit motive.

Ok ARF now how do we prove the world is rational... or must I just accept it? Just have a look at my country... are you South African?... Do rational people set others alight, rape babies...fly into twin towers etc.. do they? Prove to me the world is rational...Look at Robert Mugabe...and you can keep on naming them ...

[arf9999]

oh dear...

[mancombseepgood]

i just love it when religious nutters go on about same sex marriages....hello!! marriage isn't a christian/muslim/jewish ceremony only....marriage was around way before these religions popped up......its called paganism.

So what's the big deal with having to be married by a christian minister then?

[Mr TB]

Thanks ARF you are so right, next time someone says proof GOD, I will say o dear...

[Mr TB]

God gave man a commandment in GEN 1:28. Based on that it is clear why Christian ministers refuse to marry same sex couples.

[Claymore]

God gave man a commandment in GEN 1:28. Based on that it is clear why Christian ministers refuse to marry same sex couples.

That's not clear at all, even if one argues that Old Testament strictures are binding on Christians. Care to explain?

[Nick333]

TBN sir is channel 77 if you are privileged enough to have a dish. There you meet interesting characters like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, the Cahun, Creflo Dollar, Kim , Rodney Browne, Pual and Jen Crouch, Joyce Meyer, TD Jakes, Paula White.. Man the list is quite long... and you find out God is someone close to you not up there in heaven just waiting for chance to punish you...

And try watching for 15 minutes without one of them asking you to send money.:rolleyes:

[Mr TB]

:)
That's not clear at all, even if one argues that Old Testament strictures are binding on Christians. Care to explain?
:) If you wish the cotton to multiply, or the food that you eat? What do you do you do Claymore.
:) Are you vegetarian?, how is multiplication accomplished?
:) Do you eat meat? how is multiplication accomplished?

Instead of attacking my intelligence rather answer the question.

[Mr TB]

:)
:) If you wish the cotton to multiply, or the food that you eat? What do you do you do Claymore.
:) Are you vegetarian?, how is multiplication accomplished?
:) Do you eat meat? how is multiplication accomplished?

Instead of attacking my intelligence rather answer the question.

O yes I assume you guys can use a little logic so I don't type long sentences...mmm...

[Mr TB]

So what's the big deal with having to be married by a christian minister then?

Do you believe its fine to help someone steel if you know its wrong? Please do not argue the point yes or no?

[Highflyer_GP]

<slightly off topic>

Why is DTSV forcing these fscking God channels down everybody's throats? Is this not a way of indoctrinating people? Why not rather make these channels free to subscribe to, similar to the horse-racing channel?
</slightly off topic>

[Mr TB]

And try watching for 15 minutes without one of them asking you to send money.:rolleyes:

Yes I have...mmm...maybe you must try listen with a different attitude then everything changes you know...

Its like going to the movies making up your mind this movie is junk. You will never enjoy it. Or being biased about a restaurant because you had one bad experience.

In the end remember its not about the movie or the restaurant but all about you, you will have to give countenance for your deeds, their will be no friends or foes to blame or the internet...it will be you only...remember the demons also believe and they shudder..

[mancombseepgood]

<slightly off topic>

Why is DTSV forcing these fscking God channels down everybody's throats? Is this not a way of indoctrinating people? Why not rather make these channels free to subscribe to, similar to the horse-racing channel?
</slightly off topic>

that's the best I've heard in a while...
DSTV made me watch it!:D

[Highflyer_GP]

that's the best I've heard in a while...
DSTV made me watch it!:D

LOL that's not really what I meant :D There's so many channels that people really want, and they're filling up the bouquet with crap like this. It's like they're forcing it down our throats

[mancombseepgood]

Actually, they probably get it for free... have a look at the `cheap' boquet - no BBC prime, no Nat Geo, etc. etc. All the cheaper channels. AFAIK these channels can be picked up free without their help.

[Mr TB]

<slightly off topic>

Why is DTSV forcing these fscking God channels down everybody's throats? Is this not a way of indoctrinating people? Why not rather make these channels free to subscribe to, similar to the horse-racing channel?
</slightly off topic>

You have the exact same attitude than the homosexual community. They are forcing themselves onto the Christian community via goverment law using the reverse tactic of blaming the Chistian community that they force themselves onto the homosexual community.

You do exactly the same, you have the right of free association, you can choose to watch CH77 but in your arrogance you rather blame DSTV for doing something they are not doing and in doing so my right of free assocition is inhibited. So while screaming out God you are a hypocrate, you indeed are the hypocrate...

[Highflyer_GP]

You have the exact same attitude than the homosexual community. They are forcing themselves onto the Christian community via goverment law using the reverse tactic of blaming the Chistian community that they force themselves onto the homosexual community.

You do exactly the same, you have the right of free association, you can choose to watch CH77 but in your arrogance you rather blame DSTV for doing something they are not doing and in doing so my right of free assocition is inhibited. So while screaming out God you are a hypocrate, you indeed are the hypocrate...
Every channel that they add increases the compression and lowers the quality of the other channels. Stop being so paranoid and think first before you assume.

I said it before - we live in a secular society where religion and law are distinctly separate. Stop associating Christianity with law FFS, this isn't the 1600's. If you have a problem with gays, then say that you're a homophobe, stop hiding behind your religion.

[Mr TB]

Every channel that they add increases the compression and lowers the quality of the other channels. Stop being so paranoid and think first before you assume.

I said it before - we live in a secular society where religion and law are distinctly separate. Stop associating Christianity with law FFS, this isn't the 1600's. If you have a problem with gays, then say that you're a homophobe, stop hiding behind your religion.

You are lying because they make laws in the secular society that are forced onto the religious society. I am not hiding my religion or faith. I only do not agree with sexual relationships between same sexes. That of course you seem to be to intelligent to understand.

Prove to me that the seculiar and the religious is separate if you can be be locked up for performing a religious act.?

[rwenzori]

You have the exact same attitude than the homosexual community. They are forcing themselves onto the Christian community via goverment law

Gawsh! What a weird claim. How exactly are they forcing themselves onto you clappy-types? Did they come to your church and bend you over at gunpoint? And the Govt said that was cool?

Actually such stiff-assed attitudes could do with a bit of reaming out IMHO.

What poppycock!

[Highflyer_GP]

Oh dear I'm debating with a kid here. douwdouw maybe you should read your definitions first before commenting.

[Mr TB]

Every channel that they add increases the compression and lowers the quality of the other channels. Stop being so paranoid and think first before you assume.

I said it before - we live in a secular society where religion and law are distinctly separate. Stop associating Christianity with law FFS, this isn't the 1600's. If you have a problem with gays, then say that you're a homophobe, stop hiding behind your religion.

Why don't you go to DSTV, you are the customer and tell not to include the spesific channel in your Boquet. With todays technology, well what can be accomplished, maybe you just not trying hard enough to get the channels you enjoy and like to through your misarable attitude around swearing etc..

[Mr TB]

I got you all going about nothing... hehehe...

[Highflyer_GP]

Why don't you go to DSTV, you are the customer and tell not to include the spesific channel in your Boquet. With todays technology, well what can be accomplished, maybe you just not trying hard enough to get the channels you enjoy and like to through your misarable attitude around swearing etc..

Why should I have to go through the effort of getting unsubscribed? People like you should go through the effort of subscribing.

Gawsh! What a weird claim. How exactly are they forcing themselves onto you clappy-types? Did they come to your church and bend you over at gunpoint? And the Govt said that was cool?
LMAO! That would be hilarious if it actually happened.

[JBFRobisher]

You are lying because they make laws in the secular society that are forced onto the religious society. I am not hiding my religion or faith. I only do not agree with sexual relationships between same sexes. That of course you seem to be to intelligent to understand.



How are you forced to do anything in this regard? No law says you HAVE to pomp the guy sitting next to you. Who the hell are you to say two other consenting adults cannot? Methinks you should pull out your old army blanket - you know - the one with the hole in it - and give your chick a quickie to lighten your attitude up a bit. :D :D

[jabulani]

I only do not agree with sexual relationships between same sexes.

Well in my church - The Church Of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, you can noodle whoever you want as long as you all agree!. ;)

RAmen! RAmen!

[Mr TB]

Gawsh! What a weird claim. How exactly are they forcing themselves onto you clappy-types? Did they come to your church and bend you over at gunpoint? And the Govt said that was cool?

Actually such stiff-assed attitudes could do with a bit of reaming out IMHO.

What poppycock!

Really man its clear that don't have a clue how law work. Pedophiles. you know guys that rape children?, Rapists etc.. goes free in this country because everyone thinks its poppycock... But just let it happen to you baby, see how you cry then...

[Mr TB]

How are you forced to do anything in this regard? No law says you HAVE to pomp the guy sitting next to you. Who the hell are you to say two other consenting adults cannot? Methinks you should pull out your old army blanket - you know - the one with the hole in it - and give your chick a quickie to lighten your attitude up a bit. :D :D

Keep your stupid comment to yourself unless you know what it is all about!

Gee! Don't act so foolish, grow up please!:D

[rwenzori]

Really man its clear that don't have a clue how law work. Pedophiles. you know guys that rape children?, Rapists etc.. goes free in this country because everyone thinks its poppycock... But just let it happen to you baby, see how you cry then...

Hey bud! I does no how law work! But what are law to do wif homos?

[JBFRobisher]

Keep your stupid comment to yourself unless you know what it is all about!

Gee! Don't act so foolish, grow up please!:D

What stupid comment? I do know what it is all about. Go have that quickie and enjoy the sins of the flesh! It's only 20 hail marys and all is forgiven! :D

[JBFRobisher]

Hey bud! I does no how law work! But what are law to do wif homos?

LOL! Breaking into the vernacular are we?? ;)

[Nod]

Why don't you go to DSTV, you are the customer and tell not to include the spesific channel in your Boquet. With todays technology, well what can be accomplished, maybe you just not trying hard enough to get the channels you enjoy and like to through your misarable attitude around swearing etc..

You're right it can be accomplished, if Multichoice chose to. In reality Multichoice on provide 2 choices, either everything or "nothing" (mostly useless channels). They do not give the option for people to choose which channels they want, although it is possible to do. So, people in fact do not have a choice of channels to watch. On the dstv forums is more information, frustration, flame wars, etc.

[Nod]

How marriage works in this country, is that ministers have a license to marry people from the state. So they have to comply with the law in order to keep the license. With gay mariages being legal and all that, ministers don't have the right to deny marrying two gays. If he do, he will lose his license. A lot of ministers have already given up their licenses, as marrying gays are against there believe.

[Mr TB]

LOL! Breaking into the vernacular are we?? ;)

:o UMM...yes...chicks???...no bud... I'm married...

[Mr TB]

How marriage works in this country, is that ministers have a license to marry people from the state. So they have to comply with the law in order to keep the license. With gay mariages being legal and all that, ministers don't have the right to deny marrying two gays. If he do, he will lose his license. A lot of ministers have already given up their licenses, as marrying gays are against there believe.

Is it possible to refer me to a link for more info? With the issue of being homosexual I was confused for a very long time in my life and the old covenant made it very difficult to decide what is right and what is wrong.

Then at a point GEN 1:28 came up where God commanded man to fill the earth. That concluded the argument for me as such, a homosexual relationship can not be right. A homosexual had to abstain..his cross...

BUT God loves every single person that walked this earth, because in the book of Revelation our names were written in a book even before creation of this world. The Book of Life. That is why the Messiah tells his disciples you are chosen...,all of us chosen before creation of this earth. It is your choice and my choice whether our names will stay in the Book of Life or not...

[rwenzori]

With the issue of being homosexual I was confused for a very long time in my life

Yes it can be confusing I guess, but it's cool brother, it's cool! Live and let live I say!

[Highflyer_GP]

With the issue of being homosexual I was confused for a very long time in my life

Yes it can be confusing I guess, but it's cool brother, it's cool! Live and let live I say!

LOL I thought that I was the only one who thought that sounded kind of ambiguous :D

[lilDeath]

LOL I thought that I was the only one who thought that sounded kind of ambiguous :D
erm ... no ;)

[rwenzori]

Then at a point GEN 1:28 came up where God commanded man to fill the earth.

But at Proverbs 14:7 the Bible says:

"In the love of Yahweh all men are blessed; yea, even the man who hath forsaken fickle woman to love his brother."

:p

[Mr TB]

But at Proverbs 14:7 the Bible says:

"In the love of Yahweh all men are blessed; yea, even the man who hath forsaken fickle woman to love his brother."

:p

Yes sir quote passages out of context and you can make anyone say anything...

[Mr TB]

Your friends quoted me out of context... only those without a legitimate argument do things like that...

[Highflyer_GP]

Your friends quoted me out of context... only those without a legitimate argument do things like that...
The part about being confused about your sexuality? Chill man it was just a joke.

[rwenzori]

Then at a point GEN 1:28 came up where God commanded man to fill the earth.


Yes sir quote passages out of context and you can make anyone say anything...

[Mr TB]

The part about being confused about your sexuality? Chill man it was just a joke.

:cool: Fair sir I will suck it as a joke... did you see the thread rolled over 100 not bad at all for all the we type hey?

[rwenzori]

Yes sir quote passages out of context and you can make anyone say anything...

Actually this was an exercise in crap detection, and you failed with flying colours. Your response is very funny, because it demonstrates just how bigoted and ignorant you clappers really are. How so?

Well, firstly, you attack my posting and deny its relevance. Secondly, you claim I quote "out of context", but :-

1. Proverbs is not a book requiring a lot of context. It is, after all, a book of "proverbs".

2. You did not actually check the context before accusing me. How do I know this? Well, Proverbs 14:7 is the most appropriate verse I could find at short notice, and actually says "Stay away from a foolish man, For you won't find knowledge on his lips." !!! :p

So, you blew it old boy. Now maybe try to love your neighbour a bit, and be a good little clapper! After all, you don't want to blow it when, like a mighty wind, the Day of Judgement whirls up on you.

:D :D

[JBFRobisher]

"Stay away from a foolish man, For you won't find knowledge on his lips."



LOL! That's so funny! :D :D

[Nod]

Is it possible to refer me to a link for more info? With the issue of being homosexual I was confused for a very long time in my life and the old covenant made it very difficult to decide what is right and what is wrong.

Ask your minister. He will be able to tell you. Thats how I heard about it.

[Mr TB]

LOL! That's so funny! :D :D

Anyone for good advice? Stay away from rwenzori.:p

[Neo]

BUT God loves every single person that walked this earth, because in the book of Revelation our names were written in a book even before creation of this world. The Book of Life. That is why the Messiah tells his disciples you are chosen...,all of us chosen before creation of this earth. It is your choice and my choice whether our names will stay in the Book of Life or not...

So then why does he command us to kill Homosexuals?

[Mr TB]

So then why does he command us to kill Homosexuals?

Because at that point in time He wish to show the Isrealites how much He hates sexual immorality because you made in His image. You disrespect that very image(if you disrespect Robert Mugabe for instance in his presence you are a dead man)with sexual immorality.

Now before you argue study the Book of Galations and Paul,s explanation of grace as he realises he is not worthy. Once done you will see Paul know grace only saves him nothing else.

[Claymore]

:)
:) If you wish the cotton to multiply, or the food that you eat? What do you do you do Claymore.
:) Are you vegetarian?, how is multiplication accomplished?
:) Do you eat meat? how is multiplication accomplished?

Instead of attacking my intelligence rather answer the question.

I understant how procreation happens. However, I don't understand your interpretation of Gen 1:28 with regard to gay marriage. In particular, heterosexual marriage does not guarantee procreation, nor does not being married prevent it. Anyway, don't you think there are enough people on the planet already?

Secondly, why would an obligation from the Old Testament be binding for Christians, even assuming that was actually a command?

[Neo]

Because at that point in time He wish to show the Isrealites how much He hates sexual immorality because you made in His image. You disrespect that very image(if you disrespect Robert Mugabe for instance in his presence you are a dead man)with sexual immorality.


So did he change his mind later on? Or are we still supposed to kill homosexuals?

How did you put it in an earlier post, yes or no?

[Claymore]

How marriage works in this country, is that ministers have a license to marry people from the state. So they have to comply with the law in order to keep the license. With gay mariages being legal and all that, ministers don't have the right to deny marrying two gays. If he do, he will lose his license. A lot of ministers have already given up their licenses, as marrying gays are against there believe.

Nope.

Under the Marriage Act, marriages are conducted as before. Under the Civil Unions bill, religious marriage officers (priests) are under no obligation to perform gay marriages (or any marriages, as per their religion). State-paid marriage offices may perform gay marriages, but may refuse to do so as an issue of conscience. (Personally, I think that's a crock; they are paid state employees, and should be obliged to perform all legal state duties required of them, whether they like it or not).

[jabulani]

Once done you will see Paul know grace only saves him nothing else.

Well us Pastafarians usually say The Noodles Prayer instead of grace:


Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day our garlic bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. RAmen.

[mancombseepgood]

Then at a point GEN 1:28 came up where God commanded man to fill the earth. That concluded the argument for me as such, a homosexual relationship can not be right. A homosexual had to abstain..his cross...
It is mentioned in Romans 1:26 & 27 (http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm)

[Captain Beer]

An interesting video about the bible:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GU8NPmt2XV8

[Nod]

Nope.

Under the Marriage Act, marriages are conducted as before. Under the Civil Unions bill, religious marriage officers (priests) are under no obligation to perform gay marriages (or any marriages, as per their religion). State-paid marriage offices may perform gay marriages, but may refuse to do so as an issue of conscience. (Personally, I think that's a crock; they are paid state employees, and should be obliged to perform all legal state duties required of them, whether they like it or not).

Then there is a lot of confused ministers out there.

[Nod]

I found the following regarding marriage officers:

A person objecting to a marriage must do so in writing and must provide a copy of the objection to the couple contemplating marriage at least 24 hours before the ceremony.
and

The Act retain the existing provision permitting a religious marriage officer to refuse to conduct a marriage that does not conform to the tenets of his or her faith.

Source: http://www.sacc-ct.org.za/ppu_wed.html

So it seems a minister may refuse to marry someone, but must give a good reason in writing. Now that gay marriages are legal, they will not have a easy time refusing it.

[rwenzori]

It is mentioned in Romans 1:26 & 27 (http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm)

Yes but Saul/Paul was an uptight bastard and probably a closet homosexual. AFAIK he never married and seemed to denigrate women.

[Mr TB]

I understant how procreation happens. However, I don't understand your interpretation of Gen 1:28 with regard to gay marriage. In particular, heterosexual marriage does not guarantee procreation, nor does not being married prevent it. Anyway, don't you think there are enough people on the planet already?

Secondly, why would an obligation from the Old Testament be binding for Christians, even assuming that was actually a command?


To be honest I don't even know what the title actually mean but...

The planting of seed does not guarantee a crop ... true, but if you don't plant no crop is gauranteed.

Not being married doesn't prevent, but fornication is sin a rule has been made by God...true? God prevent man from going that way but it is still his choice...

Enough people on the planet... well you suggest homosexual relationships to curb it?...rather let aids or hiv spread...like the Black Death in Europe.. basically half of europe's inhabitants were killed then in a short space...

[Claymore]

The planting of seed does not guarantee a crop ... true, but if you don't plant no crop is gauranteed.


So you agree that people unable to have children should not be permitted to get married then? And also that contraception should not be used?

[Debbie]

Source: http://www.sacc-ct.org.za/ppu_wed.html

So it seems a minister may refuse to marry someone, but must give a good reason in writing. Now that gay marriages are legal, they will not have a easy time refusing it.

>>>>>OT
Are nurses/doctors allowed to refuse to perform abortions on conscientious grounds? Just wondering how this compares to the apparant right of STATE- employed ppl to refuse to perform gay marriages...
>>>>/

[Syndyre]

I think they are, not sure of the details though.

[Nod]

>>>>>OT
Are nurses/doctors allowed to refuse to perform abortions on conscientious grounds? Just wondering how this compares to the apparant right of STATE- employed ppl to refuse to perform gay marriages...
>>>>/

Ministers are not employed by the state. They simply get a license from them the state to perform marrages.

[arf9999]

>>>>>OT
Are nurses/doctors allowed to refuse to perform abortions on conscientious grounds? Just wondering how this compares to the apparant right of STATE- employed ppl to refuse to perform gay marriages...
>>>>/

For nurses and midwives - No... and yes. AFAIK, in order to perform abortions, medical staff are required to undergo certain training programs, and it is illegal to perform an abortion if that training has not been done. The training is optional however. So although you cannot refuse to perform the procedure if you have been trained, but you can refuse to do the training...

[Mr TB]

So you agree that people unable to have children should not be permitted to get married then? And also that contraception should not be used?

:) It tough to explain when someone is ignorant... man can not bear children..., for a woman the it is always possible...

[Neo]

So did he change his mind later on? Or are we still supposed to kill homosexuals?

How did you put it in an earlier post, yes or no?

bump @douwdouw

Still waiting for your answer on this one.

In Levi God commands us to kill homosexuals. So either we're all sinners for not obeying, or (as you seem to suggest) God changed his mind, in which case I'd like to know on what else he changed his mind?

But then he did not change his mind as, in the New Testament, even J*sus (among others) said the old commands still holds :confused:

So I guess we better start the lynching....and selling our daughters into sex slavery while we're at it....:rolleyes:

[Mr TB]

For nurses and midwives - No... and yes. AFAIK, in order to perform abortions, medical staff are required to undergo certain training programs, and it is illegal to perform an abortion if that training has not been done. The training is optional however. So although you cannot refuse to perform the procedure if you have been trained, but you can refuse to do the training...

Why will you undergo the training program in the first place if you have a problem with it. The state is actually quite right in forcing you ...

I might be wrong a declaration under oath that you have no problem with performing such procedure...

Should you refuse at a later stage the training become null and void and you will not be allowed to do such procedure at all in future....

[Debbie]

For nurses and midwives - No... and yes. AFAIK, in order to perform abortions, medical staff are required to undergo certain training programs, and it is illegal to perform an abortion if that training has not been done. The training is optional however. So although you cannot refuse to perform the procedure if you have been trained, but you can refuse to do the training...

Nod, from your earlier post-

State-paid marriage offices may perform gay marriages, but may refuse to do so as an issue of conscience.

So essentially the state theoretically allows STATE-paid ppl to refuse to perform gay marriages, but not to refuse to conduct an abortion?

If so, then talk about *confused*!

[Mr TB]

bump @douwdouw

Still waiting for your answer on this one.

In Levi God commands us to kill homosexuals. So either we're all sinners for not obeying, or (as you seem to suggest) God changed his mind, in which case I'd like to know on what else he changed his mind?

But then he did not change his mind as, in the New Testament, even J*sus (among others) said the old commands still holds :confused:

So I guess we better start the lynching....and selling our daughters into sex slavery while we're at it....:rolleyes:

Did I refer you to read Galations? Did you?

If you think God is a murderer "YES" but I know He is not so the answer is "NO". The answer lies in mercy and grace.

Once again I refer say study GALATIONS. Paul explains to them don't act like idiots...

[Mr TB]

Oh.. yes who's the other prick that throw in a stupid comment? "GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT WILL CHANGE HIS MIND"

The people of Nineve were warned turn from your wicked ways or be destroyed..., then they returned to their old wicked ways and were indeed destroyed...

[Mr TB]

Nod, from your earlier post-


So essentially the state theoretically allows STATE-paid ppl to refuse to perform gay marriages, but not to refuse to conduct an abortion?

If so, then talk about *confused*!

Why the confusion?... because there is no moral standard... do as you and see what happens next...

Children abusing their parents... and woman thinking they are man oh now...

[noswal]

Oh.. yes who's the other prick that throw in a stupid comment?

Not a very Christian thing to say, is it?

[Mr TB]

It is mentioned in Romans 1:26 & 27 (http://bible.cc/romans/1-27.htm)

The relationship is mentioned, the immediate attack on any Christian however is translation of the Greek and of course the Bible is out of date. The same goes for the old covenant.

What is one one of man's basic functions?... otherwise earth stop existing.. that is reproduction and samesex relationships can not reproduce ... in their selfishness they brought the existence of the planet to an end...

[Neo]

Did I refer you to read Galations? Did you?

If you think God is a murderer "YES" but I know He is not so the answer is "NO". The answer lies in mercy and grace.

Once again I refer say study GALATIONS. Paul explains to them don't act like idiots...

Yes, I've read it. And nowhere does it say you can selectively decide which commands God really meant and which ones were just flippant comments by Him, to be discarded later. It's either God's word and law or not, surely?

But here we have Paul (in Galatians - not Galations, btw.) directly contradicting J*sus himself, who said "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets" and carries on stating the law will hold till the end of time. (Matthew 5:17)

So assuming you disagree with J*sus; if the Old Testament does not hold anymore (as per your and Paul's explanation) how can you quote Genesis to justify gay marriages are wrong?

[Mr TB]

Ok my apologies actually insulting the word "prick" attaching it to that comment.

[Debbie]

Why the confusion?... because there is no moral standard... do as you and see what happens next...

Children abusing their parents... and woman thinking they are man oh now...

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I'm just pointing out the schitzophrenic State.

[Mr TB]

Yes, I've read it. And nowhere does it say you can selectively decide which commands God really meant and which ones were just flippant comments by Him, to be discarded later. It's either God's word and law or not, surely?

But here we have Paul (in Galatians - not Galations, btw.) directly contradicting J*sus himself, who said "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets" and carries on stating the law will hold till the end of time. (Matthew 5:17)

So assuming you disagree with J*sus; if the Old Testament does not hold anymore (as per your and Paul's explanation) how can you quote Genesis to justify gay marriages are wrong?

God gave man a command in Genesis and that commanf can only be fulfilled via reproduction. Something that is not possible in a gay marriage.

But of course you have a mind of your own , all you have done is challenge my believes but not at one point show your viewpoint, did you say right or wrong.

You disagree with what I type but never once said if you think samesex marriages is right or wrong. Do you have a view or do you act the same way than Pontius Pilate... Wash them.. remember they stillcarried J esus Blood on them...

[Captain Beer]

God gave man a command in Genesis and that commanf can only be fulfilled via reproduction. Something that is not possible in a gay marriage.

But of course you have a mind of your own , all you have done is challenge my believes but not at one point show your viewpoint, did you say right or wrong.

You disagree with what I type but never once said if you think samesex marriages is right or wrong. Do you have a view or do you act the same way than Pontius Pilate... Wash them.. remember they stillcarried J esus Blood on them...

I think gay marriages are fine. I'm not gay.

But you sir are a prick :)

Stop going on about Genesis, if you guys believe in ***** then Genesis becomes a bit redundant. No?

[Mr TB]

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I'm just pointing out the schitzophrenic State.

The Idea in the comment. Anargy in the country, we can actually do as we like and see what happens, especially when law start to be contradicting...

[Highflyer_GP]

I think you mean anarchy:
an = without
archy = government

The last time I checked we still had a government.

[Mr TB]

I think gay marriages are fine. I'm not gay.

But you sir are a prick :)

Stop going on about Genesis, if you guys believe in ***** then Genesis becomes a bit redundant. No?

:p And as you must have noted in my apology to "Noswal" I think I actually gave you a compliment when using the word.

Now how do you justify your viewpoint, maybe I then change mine?

[Mr TB]

I think you mean anarchy:
an = without
archy = government

The last time I checked we still had a government.

Thanks man...so if someone type "wif" must I correct it to "with"?

[Mr TB]

Thanks man...so if someone type "wif" must I correct it to "with"?

You can call it goverment if you want too...

[rwenzori]

Oh.. yes who's the other prick that throw in a stupid comment?

Is that me? Maybe it's me? Oh! Let it be me me me me!

:p

[Neo]

God gave man a command in Genesis and that commanf can only be fulfilled via reproduction. Something that is not possible in a gay marriage.

But of course you have a mind of your own , all you have done is challenge my believes but not at one point show your viewpoint, did you say right or wrong.

You disagree with what I type but never once said if you think samesex marriages is right or wrong. Do you have a view or do you act the same way than Pontius Pilate... Wash them.. remember they stillcarried J esus Blood on them...

I'm merely pointing out the lack of logic in your arguments.

You deduce from a vague statement in Gen 1:28 "Be fertile and multiply", that gay marriages are wrong. A stretch of logic by anyone's standard.

I then ask if you also believe, as per Levi 20:13, that we should just kill all gays, it would resolve the whole marriage issue, surely.

You argue that Paul (in direct contradiction with his boss) say the old laws don't hold anymore.

Yet, YOU decide, that Gen 1:28 still hold. And should actually read "Be fertile and multiply, and BTW. don't get married if you're gay".

My own viewpoints on the issue was not being discussed but since you asked, I've got no problem what consenting adults do with and to each other and it's for sure not for me to judge them.

[Mr TB]

I think gay marriages are fine. I'm not gay.

But you sir are a prick :)

Stop going on about Genesis, if you guys believe in ***** then Genesis becomes a bit redundant. No?

Am I going on about GENESIS?...If one book is redundant the Whole Book is redundant. The old covenant or then the old testament is a shadow of the new covenant, the new testament. The old covenant is the example whilst the new covenant is the substance... No sir nothing is redundant....

[Neo]

Actually, I do have one problem with gay marriages;

Yet another set of victims for divorce lawyers.....

[Highflyer_GP]

You can call it goverment if you want too...

Maybe not your type of government, but a government nonetheless.

[Mr TB]

I'm merely pointing out the lack of logic in your arguments.

You deduce from a vague statement in Gen 1:28 "Be fertile and multiply", that gay marriages are wrong. A stretch of logic by anyone's standard.

I then ask if you also believe, as per Levi 20:13, that we should just kill all gays, it would resolve the whole marriage issue, surely.

You argue that Paul (in direct contradiction with his boss) say the old laws don't hold anymore.

Yet, YOU decide, that Gen 1:28 still hold. And should actually read "Be fertile and multiply, and BTW. don't get married if you're gay".

My own viewpoints on the issue was not being discussed but since you asked, I've got no problem what consenting adults do with and to each other and it's for sure not for me to judge them.

So what you are telling me I/you have not the right to tell the next person the deed he has done is wrong? Quite a stupid argument no wonder young lads will go out beat up someone innocent stab him and still think they can get away with it.

No son I am not judging, the True and Honest Judge were despised by you and company in this whole chat... There is Blood on your hands...

[Neo]

Am I going on about GENESIS?...If one book is redundant the Whole Book is redundant. The old covenant or then the old testament is a shadow of the new covenant, the new testament. The old covenant is the example whilst the new covenant is the substance... No sir nothing is redundant....

So then we should kill gays?

@Toilet_Duck; The whole concept of Genesis not being relevant is yet another opt out to try and get around the so called 'old laws' that clearly instruct us to do things that no civil society would do, like killing gays or selling our daughters.

The only problem with this argument is that in multiple places in the New Testament, it is clearly stated that Genesis and the other books in the Old Testament still holds.

[Neo]

So what you are telling me I/you have not the right to tell the next person the deed he has done is wrong?

But it's only you who decided gay marriages are wrong. So you're enforcing your viewpoints on others. What a very Christian thing to do.



No son I am not judging, the True and Honest Judge were despised by you and company in this whole chat... There is Blood on your hands...

So when logic fails the threats come out?, guess it worked for two thousand years, why not now?

[Mr TB]

Maybe not your type of government, but a government nonetheless.

Are pushing this as a racial issue ? No sir not at all. A government should seek to serve the people that brought them into power. This government only seek to serve themselves. That is why I don't see it as government but anarchy - everyone for himself. No racial issue ok...

[Highflyer_GP]

Are pushing this as a racial issue ? No sir not at all. A government should seek to serve the people that brought them into power. This government only seek to serve themselves. That is why I don't see it as government but anarchy - everyone for himself. No racial issue ok...
Never said anything about race, different people will have different opinions on how a government is run. Some may see it as them serving themselves, some may not. The fact that a government exists at all (irrespective of whether or not you agree with it) directly contradicts the idea of anarchy.

[Mr TB]

But it's only you who decided gay marriages are wrong. So you're enforcing your viewpoints on others. What a very Christian thing to do.



So when logic fails the threats come out?, guess it worked for two thousand years, why not now?

Ok then if you wish to go that way... 6000yrs in the Garden of Eden Adam blamed God for what he(Adam) did. Eve blamed the snake(satan) for what happened not wanting to take responsibility...They all got punished and the only way back is through the Messiah... I am not a judge, the choice between eternal life or eternal death is yours.

But I will leave you with one last remark did you notice that the first blood sacrifice for sin was made on the Garden of Eden?

[Mr TB]

Never said anything about race, different people will have different opinions on how a government is run. Some may see it as them serving themselves, some may not. The fact that a government exists at all (irrespective of whether or not you agree with it) directly contradicts the idea of anarchy.

Ok then goverment then... why did I actually argue the point? They are not serving the people that empowered them,so they deserve not to be recognised as the goverment like in apartheid?

So then what will we call it if it is a goverment not recognised but a goverment nonetheless.?

[rwenzori]

Douwdouw old boy, what is the name and number of your pastor? I think he needs to be informed of your uncharitable behaviour here.

[Mr TB]

Douwdouw old boy, what is the name and number of your pastor? I think he needs to be informed of your uncharitable behaviour here.

Can you give show me the blood sacrifice? If you do I know you really wish to report me.

[Captain Beer]

douwdouw answer the question, should we kill gays?

I think you need to roll a spliff, and put some Snoop Dogg on :D

[Mr TB]

douwdouw answer the question, should we kill gays?

I think you need to roll a spliff, and put some Snoop Dogg on :D

I rest my case on mercy and grace. The answer was given previously but thrown back at me in sarcasm...Sarcasm is a sign of childishness, but my children you still have to learn the basics of the Word before you will understand the more complicated issues...

[Neo]

I rest my case on mercy and grace. The answer was given previously but thrown back at me in sarcasm...Sarcasm is a sign of childishness, but my children you still have to learn the basics of the Word before you will understand the more complicated issues...

Pardon us for being confused, but you seem to say both no and yes to the question.

You first said NO, gays should not be killed as Paul said so.

But then you said YES, gays should be killed as "No book is redundant". Thus Levi is not redundant and we therefore must kill gays.

I'm a bit lost where the Garden of Eden or blood sacrifices suddenly come in and the relevance to gays, their marital status or their right to live. :confused:

[rwenzori]

Can you give show me the blood sacrifice?

And that means? Must I go sacrifice a virgin homosexual for you?

[Mr TB]

And that means? Must I go sacrifice a virgin homosexual for you?

A remark like that my child it quite clear that you are not interested in proper answers, like I have experienced in previous chats with other members. Only trying to provoke because you do not like my thoughts and maybe fear?

[rwenzori]

A remark like that my child it quite clear that you are not interested in proper answers, like I have experienced in previous chats with other members. Only trying to provoke because you do not like my thoughts and maybe fear?

I'm surprised you even claim to have thoughts. You just regurgitate standard fundamentalist crap, and brook no counter-arguments. Anyway....

[Captain Beer]

I rest my case on mercy and grace. The answer was given previously but thrown back at me in sarcasm...Sarcasm is a sign of childishness, but my children you still have to learn the basics of the Word before you will understand the more complicated issues...

So you don't like Snoop Dogg? :confused:

[Claymore]

:) It tough to explain when someone is ignorant... man can not bear children..., for a woman the it is always possible...

Rubbish. Women past menopause cannot, and nor can those who have had hysterectomies. Answer the question: if people are unable to have children, should they be permitted to marry?

[Mr TB]

Rubbish. Women past menopause cannot, and nor can those who have had hysterectomies. Answer the question: if people are unable to have children, should they be permitted to marry?

How old was Sarah when she gave birth to Isaac? Did you know that the hebrew name has a meaning? It means "laughter", like you Sarah laughed at God impossible she said .. and when He actually asked her why are you laughing? she was frightened and denied laughing...

What is impossible with man is possible with God...

[rwenzori]

Some scripture for you:



The house where the dead dwell in total darkness,
Where they drink dirt and eat stone,
Where they wear feathers like birds,
Where no light ever invades their everlasting darkness,
Where the door and the lock of Hell is coated with thick dust.
When I entered the House of Dust,
On every side the crowns of kings were heaped,
On every side the voices of the kings who wore those crowns.
I saw sitting in this House of Dust a priest and a servant,
I also saw a priest of purification and a priest of ecstasy,
I saw all the priests of the great gods.
There sat Etana and Sumukan,
There sat Ereshkigal, the queen of Hell,
And There sat DouwDouw The Ignorant.
:p

[Neo]

How old was Sarah when she gave birth to Isaac? Did you know that the hebrew name has a meaning? It means "laughter", like you Sarah laughed at God impossible she said .. and when He actually asked her why are you laughing? she was frightened and denied laughing...

What is impossible with man is possible with God...

The question was whether those who cannot conceive should be allowed to marry. You've not answered that yet.

Further, you say God can make those who cannot bear children, do so. Maybe we'll see some gay childbirths now? ;)

But you're right, God does seem to find possible things most modern humans would not even consider, including genocide, mass rape, infanticide, forced abortion, slavery and many other actions rational people would not even contemplate.

[Highflyer_GP]

You guys are wasting your time - he openly admits to posting with the intention of causing a stir i.e. he's a troll.

[rwenzori]

You guys are wasting your time - he openly admits to posting with the intention of causing a stir i.e. he's a troll.

Yeah - we know! But he's such a stupid troll! Reminds me of old pupa! :D

[Mr TB]

Yeah - we know! But he's such a stupid troll! Reminds me of old pupa! :D

If I am that stupid why are you trolling after me. In any case you stupid if you think a h@ljol is acceptable. One of these days pedophiles willbe allowed into schools...as standards keep on lowering.

GOOD LUCK! when one of your kids complain to you, you were warned...

[Mr TB]

The question was whether those who cannot conceive should be allowed to marry. You've not answered that yet.

Further, you say God can make those who cannot bear children, do so. Maybe we'll see some gay childbirths now? ;)

But you're right, God does seem to find possible things most modern humans would not even consider, including genocide, mass rape, infanticide, forced abortion, slavery and many other actions rational people would not even contemplate.

We only have to look at ZIMBABWE, do you insist that is God's fault? Do you insist Idi Amin is God's fault, Hitler etc...do you? O come on it is power hungry people that will do anything to stay on the top. You bame God for that? O come on where your logic, do you want God to intervene why? You have just acknowledged Zim's president to be rational...Why should He then?

[Neo]

We only have to look at ZIMBABWE, do you insist that is God's fault? Do you insist Idi Amin is God's fault, Hitler etc...do you? O come on it is power hungry people that will do anything to stay on the top. You bame God for that? O come on where your logic, do you want God to intervene why? You have just acknowledged Zim's president to be rational...Why should He then?

I was actually referring to the direct instructions God gave to commit these atrocities, killing complete groups, men, women and children, but off course to keep the virgins for raping, but as a biblical scholar you know all these things.

On your point of accountability were we not told that not even a hair will be affected without God's consent?

So yes, if God is the Almighty, he sure is responsible for everything that goes on, don't you think?

[Neo]

We only have to look at ZIMBABWE, do you insist that is God's fault? Do you insist Idi Amin is God's fault, Hitler etc...do you? O come on it is power hungry people that will do anything to stay on the top. You bame God for that? O come on where your logic, do you want God to intervene why? You have just acknowledged Zim's president to be rational...Why should He then?

Can't vouch for Bob and Idi, but Hitler did base his political views and actions on his Christian teachings, holding the Jews responsible for killing J*sus. He was big buddies with the Catholic Church at the time.

[Mr TB]

I was actually referring to the direct instructions God gave to commit these atrocities, killing complete groups, men, women and children, but off course to keep the virgins for raping, but as a biblical scholar you know all these things.

On your point of accountability were we not told that not even a hair will be affected without God's consent?

So yes, if God is the Almighty, he sure is responsible for everything that goes on, don't you think?

Man surrendered the power, the dominion given to him by God to satan, any reason why God should now protect you after you have up the power He entrusted to you. Now you wish to hold Him accountable although He is still providing you with a safehaven? He controls the amount harm that may come over you, although in honesty you gave the power to the enemy and the satan can actually have you for breakfast...Come on man wake up!

[Nod]

Man surrendered to power satan the dominion given to him by God to satan, any reason why God should now protect you after you have up the power He entrusted to you. Now you wish to hold Him accountable although He is still providing you with a safehaven? He controls the amount harm that may come over you, although in honesty you gave the power to the enemy and the can actually have you for breakfast...Come on man wake up!

Come on man, reread your posts before posting, you're really making it difficult to follow. Use shorter sentences, I'm sure it will help.

[Mr TB]

My apologies, I just get involved...sorry about that...

[Neo]

Man surrendered to power satan the dominion given to him by God to satan, any reason why God should now protect you after you have up the power He entrusted to you. Now you wish to hold Him accountable although He is still providing you with a safehaven? He controls the amount harm that may come over you, although in honesty you gave the power to the enemy and the can actually have you for breakfast...Come on man wake up!

Battling a bit to read the above, but I guess you're saying God is not accountable thus he is not Almighty?

[Highflyer_GP]

Is it just me or does the whole "He" and "Him" thing in capitals tick anybody else off? :/

[Nod]

Is it just me or does the whole "He" and "Him" thing in capitals tick anybody else off? :/

Depends on which god he is reffering to I suppose.

[Highflyer_GP]

Depends on which god he is reffering to I suppose.

Doesn't matter - did God now say that we have to use capitalization when referring to him just so we're reminded about how almighty and powerful he is?

To me it seems rather silly regarding the extent that people are willing to go to.

[Nod]

Doesn't matter - did God now say that we have to use capitalization when referring to him just so we're reminded about how almighty and powerful he is?

To me it seems rather silly regarding the extent that people are willing to go to.

It seems he is only as powerfull as we make him to be. Maybe Terry Pratchet was right about gods. They lose all their power the moment nobody believes in them.

[Mr TB]

My apologies, I just get involved...sorry about that...

Thanks for keeping me busy but if I don't sign off now the wife's gonna kill me.

If I don't come online again merry christmas and happy new year.

God bless....

[Highflyer_GP]

My apologies, I just get involved...sorry about that...

Thanks for keeping me busy but if I don't sign off now the wife's gonna kill me.

If I don't come online again merry christmas and happy new year.

God bless....
Are you talking to yourself :confused:

[Mr TB]

Before I go accountability determines how powerfull you are?

Which mean man has no power because he is not accountable?

If you have no power how can you make the declarations you make?

Only fools go about doing things like that...

[Mr TB]

Before I go accountability determines how powerfull you are?

Which mean man has no power because he is not accountable?

If you have no power how can you make the declarations you make?

Only fools go about doing things like that...

Yes indeed certainly what my wife want actually got nothing to do with you.
Fair enough statement neither do any of you at this point in time deserve a merry christmas.

Because you don't know what is about but a year of trouble in 2007 maybe that will change your thinking...

[Highflyer_GP]

Before I go accountability determines how powerfull you are?

Which mean man has no power because he is not accountable?

If you have no power how can you make the declarations you make?

Only fools go about doing things like that...
Yes indeed certainly what my wife want actually got nothing to do with you.
Fair enough statement neither do any of you at this point in time deserve a merry christmas.

Because you don't know what is about but a year of trouble in 2007 maybe that will change your thinking...
Ok it seems as if you are indeed schizophrenic :/

[Mr TB]

hi there the caps are off let me quote "in america, through june 2001, more than 457000 have died due to aids or aids-related ilness. that is 5 times the u s casualty figure of the ten year vietnam war..."

aids is the fourth biggest killer worldwide...

An ostrich puts his head in the sand and think he can't be seen... fools ignore a problem and think it will go away...

[simple_simon]

So what's the big deal with having to be married by a christian minister then?

who says you have to be married by a christian minister....you can get married in court by a judge or anyone else who is gains authority to marry couples

[simple_simon]

God gave man a commandment in GEN 1:28. Based on that it is clear why Christian ministers refuse to marry same sex couples.

god gave no such commandment.

men did saying "god" told them too.

[Mr TB]

god gave no such commandment.

men did saying "god" told them too.

whether you have been told to do a thing or commanded to and you do not comply you are disobedient...

well that is the way it work in the workplace you can be given an instruction,you can be told or even commanded and if you refuse you are disobedient.

for disobedience you are warned or may even lose your job..

[simple_simon]

whether you have been told to do a thing or commanded to and you do not comply you are disobedient...

well that is the way it work in the workplace you can be given an instruction,you can be told or even commanded and if you refuse you are disobedient.

for disobedience you are warned or may even lose your job..

you're not listening to the arguement.

men made up these "rules" and said they're "god's" rules.

[Mr TB]

whether you have been told to do a thing or commanded to and you do not comply you are disobedient...

well that is the way it work in the workplace you can be given an instruction,you can be told or even commanded and if you refuse you are disobedient.

for disobedience you are warned or may even lose your job..

read the verse again

"then god blessed them , and god said to them:'be fruitful and multiply"

Is god speaking or who? If I read Hamlet and Juliet or Macbeth, it is either one of the three not shakespeare right?

[Claymore]

whether you have been told to do a thing or commanded to and you do not comply you are disobedient...

well that is the way it work in the workplace you can be given an instruction,you can be told or even commanded and if you refuse you are disobedient.

for disobedience you are warned or may even lose your job..

This, of course, only applies if the person giving the command is in a position of authority over you.

[Mr TB]

This, of course, only applies if the person giving the command is in a position of authority over you.

You are going to get a nice suprise! A junior may just tell you and you believe he has no authority, and the authority were transmitted to him..

He need not tell you just report you for complying with a valid instruction...

Preventive measure for the misuse of your position see...

[Claymore]

You are going to get a nice suprise! A junior may just tell you and you believe he has no authority, and the authority were transmitted to him..

He need not tell you just report you for complying with a valid instruction...

Preventive measure for the misuse of your position see...

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

To take your company analogy: I am under no obligation to follow the instructions of someone from another company. Especially an imaginary one.

[arf9999]

Is god speaking or who? If I read Hamlet and Juliet or Macbeth, it is either one of the three not shakespeare right?

Interesting analogy. Hamlet, MacBeth and Romeo & Juliet are also fiction.

[Mr TB]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

To take your company analogy: I am under no obligation to follow the instructions of someone from another company. Especially an imaginary one.

So if you wish to take it out of context you are welcome...

[Mr TB]

Interesting analogy. Hamlet, MacBeth and Romeo & Juliet are also fiction.

ok if the quoting of fictional books create that much a problem to you, any biograghies that i can use to support the anology?

Or will biographies not support such a anology? Will the person always be able to tell the reader that was actually the writer not me?

[simple_simon]

read the verse again

"then god blessed them , and god said to them:'be fruitful and multiply"

Is god speaking or who? If I read Hamlet and Juliet or Macbeth, it is either one of the three not shakespeare right?

you're not making any sense.

[Mr TB]

Interesting analogy. Hamlet, MacBeth and Romeo & Juliet are also fiction.

How many writers was involved in writing the piece of fiction called bible?
Over how many years was this piece of fiction combined?
The bible is one quarter prophetic... and don't think they are wrong or have been wrong, they were accurate to the letter...

Quotation:

"for skeptics to successfully maintain that the bible is not the inspired word of god, they must explain how the bible contains accurate scientific information that was often disharmonious with the accepted knowledge of the time."

The bible is certainly not just a book... compare to it scientific correctness, you will be amazed...it is not fiction...

[Dastrix]

How many writers was involved in writing the piece of fiction called bible?

Lots of men wrote this. No gods.

[noswal]

And it wasn't written in English which leaves it open to poor translation over the years.

[Mr TB]

Lots of men wrote this. No gods.

written by man inspired by god. The americans some 30 years back run it through one of their clever comps to test how many people wrote it if i remember correctly... the answer "like one man"

they also find a missing day when they did tests to launch there apollos or whatever. The comp got stuck and would not continue its calculations...
a guy a christian, remembered about Hiskia and made a suggestion.

Out of desperation an adjustment was made 20 minutes and off went the comp. When it stuck again the war in which Moses had to keep his rod in the air was accepted 23h40 and off goes the machine well...

Well the internet is full of news maybe this articles is floating around somewhere...

[noswal]

You mean this

http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm

[Mr TB]

thanks noswal i appreciate your link, i printed it and will also show to friends of mine...

question however...the church is blamed for hiding and destroying evidence all the time... why should i not believe nasa is doing exactly the same?

[noswal]

how about, whats true for you is what you have observed.

[Debbie]

how about, whats true for you is what you have observed.

Good, not good enough since it places too much weight on the sense of sight- perception is a hang of a lot more than sight. Perhaps then better said as 'whats true for you is what you perceive to be true'?

[Mr TB]

how about, whats true for you is what you have observed.

Seeing is believing... nothing wrong with that.
but and that is the problem between the natural and the supernatural.
you can only enter the supernatural via faith...

Look at Elisha and his slave... His slave was looking into the natural saw the enemy and cried out in fear...

Elisha then prayed the lord to open his slave's eyes and in the supernatural his slave saw magnificent protection... all fear is gone...

Faith you need to enter the supernatural...anyone who argues there is no supernatural is a fool...

I saw my wife's leg grow...she will not fake it or try fool me will she... and at that point she with all due respect was less a christian than me...

Observation indeed brings you a far way...

[Neo]

whether you have been told to do a thing or commanded to and you do not comply you are disobedient...

well that is the way it work in the workplace you can be given an instruction,you can be told or even commanded and if you refuse you are disobedient.

for disobedience you are warned or may even lose your job..

If you believe we should obey God's commands, then why do you insist we should ignore explicit instructions given to us by God himself?

You really need to make your mind up:

* Either you obey God's commands and J*sus's instructions to follow these same commands and you start doing what God told you to do (like killing gays, raping women or slaughtering young kids), or

* You go with Paul and directly disobey God and his Son, who gave direct instructions to do just that, obey the laws.

You can't claim, in one post, that you obey God's commands in the Old Testament and in the next post claim, you don't need to. Especially when you base your whole argument in this topic on one such command.

You're making a mockery of your own principles and religion by going back on your own word every second post.

I suggest you decide what you believe in, and stick with it.

[Nod]

Either use the whole old testament, or don't use any of it.

[Neo]

Either use the whole old testament, or don't use any of it.

This is where these fundamentalists start ducking and diving, they can neither conform to nor dismiss the Old Testament. And if they do dismiss the Old Testament, it makes a mockery of the New Testament (as explained above). So it all has to go.

But of course this can't happen, so they need to put so much spin on it that Mbeki's spin doctors look like amateurs. (Dodo's postings seem to prove the point, none of his posts actually makes sense, yet he spins away, changing topic as soon as he can't give a straight answer.)

Easy to see why the Church suppressed any form of education and led most of the western countries into one of their bleakest periods, the middle ages.

Then you watch the current USA administration attempting the same and the shudders run up and down your spine.

[Mr TB]

Either use the whole old testament, or don't use any of it.
the old covenant stand, or the old testament if you want, now carefully study what the writer has to say in galatians because galatians is all about grace.

do yourself a favour and study the book of hebrew in which the writer explains what came first faith or the law.

This very law i mentioned can not be upheld by any man, so j esus came and did it for us and fulfilled this law for us. Now by faith in j esus and his grace i am righteous before god.

Note that faith came before the law or i can cling to the law that you wish me to do which i have been released from at the cross...

[Neo]

This very law i mentioned can not be upheld by any man, ....

I would sincerely hope man would not want to uphold these laws (although some do try).

I for one refuse to go out and kill, murder, rape, pillage, commit genocide, infanticide, force abortions and generally smite other nations just because a book written a long time ago 'commands' me to do so.

Oh, and as an afterthought, we should also "Love thy neighbour" (of course only the ones you've not already killed or raped).

[Highflyer_GP]

This just goes to show that accountants lack the ability of independent thought - they can only rehash what they've been taught :rolleyes:

[Mr TB]

I would sincerely hope man would not want to uphold these laws (although some do try).

I for one refuse to go out and kill, murder, rape, pillage, commit genocide, infanticide, force abortions and generally smite other nations just because a book written a long time ago 'commands' me to do so.

Oh, and as an afterthought, we should also "Love thy neighbour" (of course only the ones you've not already killed or raped).

well neo i went out to give some retarded black chidren ice cream the other day.

they enjoyed and i'm quite sure would have done much better with the piece of info i gave you... surely you can.t be that ignorant?

[Mr TB]

This just goes to show that accountants lack the ability of independent thought - they can only rehash what they've been taught :rolleyes:

Sarcasm seems to be part of your fragile character when you can't comment
Christians encounter that type of reaction often...used to it...

[Highflyer_GP]

Hey don't blame me if you can't take a joke :p

I've already heard all the jokes about engineers so give it your best shot, I won't mind ;)

[Mr TB]

This is where these fundamentalists start ducking and diving, they can neither conform to nor dismiss the Old Testament. And if they do dismiss the Old Testament, it makes a mockery of the New Testament (as explained above). So it all has to go.

But of course this can't happen, so they need to put so much spin on it that Mbeki's spin doctors look like amateurs. (Dodo's postings seem to prove the point, none of his posts actually makes sense, yet he spins away, changing topic as soon as he can't give a straight answer.)

Easy to see why the Church suppressed any form of education and led most of the western countries into one of their bleakest periods, the middle ages.

Then you watch the current USA administration attempting the same and the shudders run up and down your spine.

Nod please find out what exactly was the instructions to the isrealites and why.

Please find out why it was necessary to kill all the people for instance in Jerigo. (if all the people in the city have aids for instance, do you want them to mix with your folk?)

it is not murder like everyone want it to be, that city was done a favour, it was destucting itself due to immorality in anycase...really start to think a bit!

i saw one movie about vietnam and the soldier tripped a booby trap.

he was swinging in midair spikes through him shouting to his buddy in agony

shoot me! shoot me! he picked up the gun and shoot him...murder?

in your eyes certainly, you want him to die a slow death, just as you want that city to die a slow death...

[Nod]

Nod please find out ...

Is this homework? Because I didn't do it, Neo did. See he's laughing at your mistake :p

[Mr TB]

Is this homework? Because I didn't do it, Neo did. See he's laughing at your mistake :p

sorry nod...maybe rather than laugh neo should take note, he keep on blaming god but also just on hearsay... no proper study of the actual incidents.

oh yes the law refers to the 10 commandments, and by grace the children of god want to obey,not must obey.

also mark 12v30" and you shall love the lord your god with all your heart,with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength........."

and mark 12v31"and the second like it is this: you shall love your neighbour as yourself....."

is this commandments new?... read deut 6v4,5

Anyone who argues the old testament is not valid is a fool...

[Neo]

Nod please find out what exactly was the instructions to the isrealites and why.

Please find out why it was necessary to kill all the people for instance in Jerigo. (if all the people in the city have aids for instance, do you want them to mix with your folk?)

it is not murder like everyone want it to be, that city was done a favour, it was destucting itself due to immorality in anycase...really start to think a bit!...

So it was OK to kill all the people, but keep the virgins for rape? How did that put them out of their misery? One hell of a favour to be killed or raped by an Israelite, I guess.

But surely you're just pulling my leg? Killing is OK, nay, necessary???

Sorry, but in my book, and anyone else with an iota of compassion, you NEVER, EVER kill another human being. Or rape his daughters.

Did God himself not command in the 10 Commandments: "You shall not kill"?

I just read it again, just to make sure, and there is no disclaimer to the effect that it sometimes is OK to kill and rape.

Why were the people of Jericho killed? Because they had something the Israelites wanted; land and women.

I've got news for you; a substantial percentage of the people in YOUR city has, in actual fact, got AIDS. Are you going to kill them? Do them a favour?

[Claymore]

Anyone who argues the old testament is not valid is a fool...

Do you follow kosher food rules?

[Neo]

sorry nod...maybe rather than laugh neo should take note, he keep on blaming god but also just on hearsay... no proper study of the actual incidents.

Hearsay? But it's all written down, in the Bible. I've got a sneaky suspicion, I've read these books in more detail than you. Or at least with a more open mind. But let's not get into a p*ssing competition...:)


Anyone who argues the old testament is not valid is a fool...
But douwdouw, YOU'RE the one arguing the Old Testament is not valid!

Remember, YOU pointed us to Galatians to justify the Old Testament laws don't hold anymore and are invalid.

[arf9999]

ok if the quoting of fictional books create that much a problem to you, any biograghies that i can use to support the anology?

Or will biographies not support such a anology? Will the person always be able to tell the reader that was actually the writer not me?

The Bible is not an autobiography. It is not the word of god. It is the words of men, many of whom had their own agendas-hence the complete lack of consistency.

Pretty much anything can be justified by choosing the relevant verse. Incest? Read about Lot's daughters. Homosexuality? Read about David.

[Mr TB]

The Bible is not an autobiography. It is not the word of god. It is the words of men, many of whom had their own agendas-hence the complete lack of consistency.

Pretty much anything can be justified by choosing the relevant verse. Incest? Read about Lot's daughters. Homosexuality? Read about David.

what lot's daughters' did they did... does it suddenly become acceptable practice because it written in the bible? it is still dispicable in god's eyes.

David...the way homsexuals is raping the hebrew language trying to give credit to their dispiable way of living? You should be hit with blindness so that you can see the lie man...

The bible is not inconsistent,pple want it to be but it isn't. As i go along i'm will give you 18 reasons why you actually can accept the bible as true...

[Mr TB]

So it was OK to kill all the people, but keep the virgins for rape? How did that put them out of their misery? One hell of a favour to be killed or raped by an Israelite, I guess.

But surely you're just pulling my leg? Killing is OK, nay, necessary???

Sorry, but in my book, and anyone else with an iota of compassion, you NEVER, EVER kill another human being. Or rape his daughters.

Did God himself not command in the 10 Commandments: "You shall not kill"?

I just read it again, just to make sure, and there is no disclaimer to the effect that it sometimes is OK to kill and rape.

Why were the people of Jericho killed? Because they had something the Israelites wanted; land and women.

I've got news for you; a substantial percentage of the people in YOUR city has, in actual fact, got AIDS. Are you going to kill them? Do them a favour?

if your skin is white and i think so, it is only a white that act so arrogantly...
you should immediately leave the country because the way you act you fathers stole this country from the black people in this land and you do not belong here.

Give me your address so that i can send you a oneway ticket to europe where you belong...

[Neo]

if your skin is white and i think so, it is only a white that act so arrogantly...
you should immediately leave the country because the way you act you fathers stole this country from the black people in this land and you do not belong here.

Give me your address so that i can send you a oneway ticket to europe where you belong...

Another biblical idea, hold the children (down to the third and fourth generation, I believe it was) accountable for the sins of the fathers.

Yes, the Europeans did steal this country from the 'natives' and did smite them properly (got a few good smites in return!) , but for the last 13 generations we've been living together here, so I guess the 4th generation was the last bunch that had to feel bad about being South African.

I certainly don't, and neither does the vast majority of South Africans, the originals, the imports nor the ones we made together.

We've come a long way since the heady days of the Old Testament and most civilized people now actually strife to live together in multi-dimensional societies.

[Mr TB]

Another biblical idea, hold the children (down to the third and fourth generation, I believe it was) accountable for the sins of the fathers.

Yes, the Europeans did steal this country from the 'natives' and did smite them properly (got a few good smites in return!) , but for the last 13 generations we've been living together here, so I guess the 4th generation was the last bunch that had to feel bad about being South African.

I certainly don't, and neither does the vast majority of South Africans, the originals, the imports nor the ones we made together.

We've come a long way since the heady days of the Old Testament and most civilized people now actually strife to live together in multi-dimensional societies.

You can not fall back on biblical ideas once you denied god you have no right to be here, you have stolen this people's property and you i am quite sure have a nice life without giving anything back.

You denied god and the bible you can not now fall back on biblical ideas. In pure social terms you owe this pple and you are giving them nothing...

[Neo]

You can not fall back on biblical ideas once you denied god you have no right to be here, you have stolen this people's property and you i am quite sure have a nice life without giving anything back.

You denied god and the bible you can not now fall back on biblical ideas. In pure social terms you owe this pple and you are giving them nothing...

I'm not falling back on biblical ideas, exactly the opposite. I was pointing out that YOUR ideas seem to be based on this concept that generations down line the line I must leave the country because of something a bunch of Europeans did?. Rather re-read my post.

And surely you can't know my contribution to this society? Do tell how you know that I don't contribute to this society?

I employ around 20 people in my own company (and we all contribute to the economic growth of this country by creating more jobs and paying our taxes), are paying for the tuition of a few of them to get tertiary education (something I'd strongly suggest for everyone, you must try it), I give (free) classes at a local college, created a pension scheme for some elderly ladies who otherwise would have been on state pension, donate to charity where I can....so I do try, however feeble my attempts are.

What do you give them outside the threat that they might get killed if they have aids?

In any case; interesting how your moved a debate about gay marriages to my social responsibilities?

[Mr TB]

Hearsay? But it's all written down, in the Bible. I've got a sneaky suspicion, I've read these books in more detail than you. Or at least with a more open mind. But let's not get into a p*ssing competition...:)

But douwdouw, YOU'RE the one arguing the Old Testament is not valid!

Remember, YOU pointed us to Galatians to justify the Old Testament laws don't hold anymore and are invalid.

You are really stupid Neo, i never argued the old covenant or old testament not being valid...please man...really...

What is the greatest commanbments god gave man? read deut 6v4,5 really man you need a wake up call...

[Mr TB]

I'm not falling back on biblical ideas, exactly the opposite. I was pointing out that YOUR ideas seem to be based on this concept that generations down line the line I must leave the country because of something a bunch of Europeans did?. Rather re-read my post.

And surely you can't know my contribution to this society? Do tell how you know that I don't contribute to this society?

I employ around 20 people in my own company (and we all contribute to the economic growth of this country by creating more jobs and paying our taxes), are paying for the tuition of a few of them to get tertiary education (something I'd strongly suggest for everyone, you must try it), I give (free) classes at a local college, created a pension scheme for some elderly ladies who otherwise would have been on state pension, donate to charity where I can....so I do try, however feeble my attempts are.

What do you give them outside the threat that they might get killed if they have aids?

In any case; interesting how your moved a debate about gay marriages to my social responsibilities?

So will i then apologise for making some of my statements, getting killed by it threat or fact? in my feeble opinion a fact.

why do you refer to the bible not as hearsay once you have denied it?
why do you even refer to it in defence of your debate and then expect of me not to refer to your social responsibilities...

it must have hurt otherwise you wouldn't have given the info you did, i sincerely apologise..

[Mr TB]

I QUOTE: "The uniqueness of the bible"

1. "the bible is the only book in the world that offer objective evidence to be the word of god. only the bible gives real real proof of its divine inspiration."

[Mr TB]

2. "the bible is the only religious scripture in the world that is inerrant."

[Mr TB]

3. "only the bible has unique theological content"

[Mr TB]

4. "only the bible provides historic proof that the one true god sacrificially loves mankind"

[Mr TB]

5. "the bible contains the greatest moral standads of any book."

[Mr TB]

6. "only the bible begins with the creation of the universe by divine fiat and contains a continuous,if often brief and interspersed, historica record of mankind from the first man ,adam, to the end of history"

[Neo]

You are really stupid Neo, i never argued the old covenant or old testament not being valid...please man...really...

This argument is getting tiresome and is not moving forward. What should be an open debate now seems to have degenerated into person attack.....:rolleyes:

I may be stupid, but I don't suffer from memory loss.

A few posts back (go read it) you argued we don't need to obey God in Levi 20:13 where he commanded us to kill men who indulge in homosexual sex. (Lesbian sex is excluded, btw!)

You argued that Galatians over-rides the old laws. Remember? Maybe you should read Galatians yourself to refresh your memory?

In other words (and I'll spell it for you); YOU SAID THE OLD TESTAMENT LAWS ARE NOT VALID ANYMORE.

Go back and read your own posts. It's all there.

But maybe I'm confused (on top of being stupid), so I'll ask you one last time:

If the Old Testament is still valid (your latest view); Should we then go out and kill gays? It was a direct instruction from God himself, after all.


What is the greatest commanbments god gave man? read deut 6v4,5 really man you need a wake up call...
Not sure why you keep on harping on this point, having to love God more than anyone else, is quite irrelevant to this argument. But, as per your request, I did re-read it and still battle to see how it addresses the topic at hand; Gay marriages, and by extension, gay executions.



why do you refer to the bible not as hearsay once you have denied it?
why do you even refer to it in defence of your debate and then expect of me not to refer to your social responsibilities...

Where did I say the bible is not hearsay? (By definition as an original oral work, it is. It was only written down centuries after the events it describes).

I actually said one of your comments (that I should be held responsible for my forefathers actions, specifically colonising South Africa) is another idea God promotes and one which I obviously do not agree with. But God did cut us some slack on this one, only up to the fourth generation will be held accountable and I'm fortunately past that point. Although I'm not sure what my great grandfather got up to. :confused:

A bit of advise, BTW: If you're in an open debate, and you're maybe battling a bit, NEVER, EVER go personal. Instant credibility loss. Argue the point, not the person.

[arf9999]

Instant credibility loss.

Well, not instant, he's been working on it for a while.

[Mr TB]

7. "only the bible contains detailed prophecies about the coming savior of the world and whose prophecies have proven true in history"

[Claymore]

I QUOTE: "The uniqueness of the bible"

1. "the bible is the only book in the world that offer objective evidence to be the word of god. only the bible gives real real proof of its divine inspiration."

Objective evidence? O RLY?!


2. "the bible is the only religious scripture in the world that is inerrant."

The Bible is not inerrant. There goes that one...


5. "the bible contains the greatest moral standads of any book."

Mwahahahaha! That's a laugh!


6. "only the bible begins with the creation of the universe by divine fiat and contains a continuous,if often brief and interspersed, historica record of mankind from the first man ,adam, to the end of history"

Please point me to the parts where it describes the historical record of the Polynesians, the Mayans, and the Maori.

[Mr TB]

8. "only the bible has the most realistic view of human nature and the power to convict people of their sin, the ability to change human nature, and the realistic offer of a permanent solutionto the problem of human sin and evil"

[Dastrix]

7. "only the bible contains detailed prophecies about the coming savior of the world and whose prophecies have proven true in history"

Really? List some, in detail.

[Mr TB]

9. "the bible is the only ancient book with documented scientific and medical provision. No other ancient book is ever carefully analysed along scientific lines, but many books have been written on the theme of the bible and modern science."

[Mr TB]

10. "only the bible has its accuracy confirmed in history by archaelogy"

[Mr TB]

11. "the internal and historical characteristics of the bible are unique in its unity and internal consistency despite production over a 1500 year period by 40 plus authors writing in several nations, discussing scores of controversial subjects yet having agreement on all issues"