Plans to improve firearm applications

[Fudzy]

President Jacob Zuma has signed a proclamation aimed at addressing legislative shortcomings in the firearms licensing process, Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa said on Tuesday.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Plans-to-improve-firearm-applications-20101214

I'd be interested to hear from those on this forum that believed government were taking steps to disarm the public?

[marine1]

Blah blah blah the old administration was trying its best, the ex minister admitted it.
As for this? They are going to resolve the outstanding mess after all the pending court cases.
Hey wait were the gvt not warned about this system? Oh right its the ANC we are talking about ;)

[Fudzy]

What court cases?

[marine1]

Is that a joke? BGSA were about to proceed with a multi billion case against CFR, minister and police.
That is one amongst hundreds.
I personally, due to my involvement in this issue, know of many people successfully suing the head of CFR.
Waste of taxpayers money.
ANC Were warned..... They didn't listen

[Fudzy]

So what exactly was the point of the suing and how will this latest news affect things? Surely this should be seen as a move in the right direction? Gun competency almost as important as the license itself if you ask me.

[marine1]

No it is not. Competency and approval of firearm are 2 different things, well according the FCA anyway.
Suing? Well it seems it is the only language the ANC understand and iirc all cases fought in court were lost by the gvt.
Why do they never listen? This could have been avoided and billions of our tax money saved

[snail]

Been waiting almost 2 years for my application for a certificate to be processed. Need I say more.

[Fudzy]

I don't understand, how would billions of our tax money be saved?


Been waiting almost 2 years for my application for a certificate to be processed. Need I say more.

Won't this new legislature speed things up?

[spiderz]

I don't understand, how would billions of our tax money be saved?



Won't this new legislature speed things up?

Before the current legislation was introduced you could get a firearms license within a month or two.
Now you are lucky if they can do it in two years.

The new firearms law has costed SA quite a few million already, with no improvements at all.

[Fudzy]

The new firearms law has costed SA quite a few million already, with no improvements at all.

How?

[R/SGT]

Get yourself a black powder firearm (No license required) think wild west era, you only need a license for the powder and from what I have heard it is relatively easy to get

[marine1]

How?
I cant help but feel you are baiting me but I will try explain.
The cost of implementing this FCA cost hundreds of millions over the last 10-12 years. I am just talking about logistics, gvt costs, etc etc. The costs of implementing such a huge act and the process involved was massive.
Overtime of police was also huge.
Court cases against the police and in particular Brigadier Bothma, head of CFR at the time ran into further millions if not more than that.
Now the situation is almost at collapse.
Why do you think this task team was appointed? If it continued to go on like this, the police budget would have been spent on civil claims.
I suppose it also helps to have certain children of members of cabinet being refused after 2yrs for a firearm ;)

[Fudzy]

Get yourself a black powder firearm (No license required) think wild west era, you only need a license for the powder and from what I have heard it is relatively easy to get


In addition, all persons in possession of muzzle loading firearms would need to apply for competency certificates and would have 12 months in which to comply.

Not for long it seems.

[Fudzy]

I cant help but feel you are baiting me but I will try explain.
The cost of implementing this FCA cost hundreds of millions over the last 10-12 years. I am just talking about logistics, gvt costs, etc etc. The costs of implementing such a huge act and the process involved was massive.
Overtime of police was also huge.
Court cases against the police and in particular Brigadier Bothma, head of CFR at the time ran into further millions if not more than that.
Now the situation is almost at collapse.
Why do you think this task team was appointed? If it continued to go on like this, the police budget would have been spent on civil claims.
I suppose it also helps to have certain children of members of cabinet being refused after 2yrs for a firearm ;)

No, no baiting here just wondered if these costs were attributed to gun shop owners loss of revenue or civil cases against the police for people who are attacked who were waiting for guns.

Found another interesting thread when trying to find out what CFR meant (Central Firearm Register for those who were also not sure :D )
http://pagfsa.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=68

I wonder if this is a result of BGOASA's requests.

Either way, I hope it's ground to moving towards having more compentent gun owners licensed quicker and licenses of those not competent taken away.

[BigBullBully]

How are government still not trying to disarm the public ? I can tell trough your answers you do not own a firearm, do you belong to GFSA ?

This is not a process re-design it's just a smoke screen to hide the ineffectual FCA, he did not state anything about licenses, just competency certificates, two totally different things ! Did you read the article bud ? The minister has in effect admitted there was no process in the new act catering for competency certificate renewals, what does that tell you about the whole process if this was the first step in obtaining a license ?

How, you keep asking. Well lets see, there were 2 000 000 + firearm owners legally possessing firearms. Government then decided to relicense all of them, so a committee was assembled to decide how to go about it. Then a task team was put together to assess what resources were needed to implement the new act, a new FCR was implemented and staffed. Then government decided to tell everyone about the new act and asked for public input (what a joke), upon seeing the resistance from all groups concerned government knew what was going to happen but went ahead anyway.

Concerned groups decided to follow legal routes to challenge the new act and it's shortcomings, not to mention the constitutionality of the whole process, which led to a high court interdict ruling that all licenses under the old act remain valid until the case against the act could be finalised. This is now 6 years after government was told the Canadian long gun system would not work (what the new act is based on), as it was abandoned by Canada for the exact same reasons.

So now I ask you, in all this how do you not see government wasting millions of rands ? :confused:

[Getafix]

Been waiting almost 2 years for my application for a certificate to be processed. Need I say more.

+1

Was in a que on 31/09/09.
Was assisted around h2300.
Up to now I didn't her a thing.
My application was an easy one.
I am a dedicated Sports Hunter with all the accreditations ans recommendations from a Hunting Association.
Still nothing happened.

[Palimino]

I'd be interested to hear from those on this forum that believed government were taking steps to disarm the public?

Of course they are! Total paranoia rules! The genius plan to amalgamate the Metro police with the SAPS bears the grubby fingerprints of the government’s mission to centralise all potential threats to their hegemony. Other plans to remove any possible threats include:

#1 The commando’s have been disbanded.


SAns will never be allowed to return to anything remotely resembling a khaki clad group of men with white skin and guns. The image is one the AWB cultivated and the word commando has an instant association with the word ‘Boer’. This is a pity because they had the infrastructure (ambulances, hospitals, etc.), the command structure and a large, disciplined body of men who could be activated at a moments notice. They would have been useful for natural catastrophes (climate change), bush fires, floods, earth quakes, etc. They didn’t wimp-out easily.

#2 The navy has been rendered ineffectual.

#3 The air-force has been rendered ineffectual.

#4 The army has been rendered useless and has provided a patronage haven for supporters.

#5 There are ongoing attempts to disarm the population.

#6 Restrictive legislation has been put into place to prevent the population from importing weaponry (to protect themselves from criminals).

#7 Any half-way effective police unit has been disbanded like child-abuse, rape etc. units and the Scorpions (of course).

#8 The ongoing attempt to centralise the metro police with the SAPS.

#9 School shooting teams have been disbanded.

I am especially narked about #9. One of my sons got his school colours for musketry (shooting) in grade 8. He was in the last cohort of students before the school shooting team was disbanded (he didn’t wear khaki incidentally – school uniform). His colours were quite a rarity because the means of getting them didn’t exist any longer. He traded on this for the rest of his school career.


Note: In SA, many all-boys high schools had shooting teams. They competed with one another.

Fudzy

Gun competency almost as important as the license itself if you ask me.

Who would teach gun competency? MK and APLA retreads? My big toe knows more about gun competency than they ever will. So do most SA male citizens who did military service.

For your interest.

[marine1]

We have an airforce? News to me.
We ave planes and helo's but no one to fly them ;)
Viva Africa, Viva

[Fudzy]

How are government still not trying to disarm the public ? I can tell trough your answers you do not own a firearm, do you belong to GFSA ?


Lol, no I don't believe disarming Joe Public is the right thing to do but there needs to be stricter regulations in who they give licenses out to.

I didn't know about the cock up that is the CFR. What resistance did it get from the groups?

[Fudzy]

Fudzy


Who would teach gun competency? MK and APLA retreads? My big toe knows more about gun competency than they ever will. So do most SA male citizens who did military service.

For your interest.

Well hopefuly those SA males citizens would step up, I'm talking more about psychological screening and so forth. I've had quite a few friends who have lost loved ones in murder-suicides.

And quite frankly those white khaki commandos only have themselves to blame, I highly doubt they were willing to change their ways.

[Palimino]

Well hopefuly those SA males citizens would step up, I'm talking more about psychological screening and so forth. I've had quite a few friends who have lost loved ones in murder-suicides.

And quite frankly those white khaki commandos only have themselves to blame, I highly doubt they were willing to change their ways.

So those (white) SA male citizens would have no problem getting a job. Similarly, MK and APLA retreads are well-balanced individuals superbly qualified to psychologically screen firearm applications. Yeah, right. Their ability to spell ‘No’ and to wield an ‘Application Rejected’ rubber stamp is unsurpassed.

[Fudzy]

So those (white) SA male citizens would have no problem getting a job. Similarly, MK and APLA retreads are well-balanced individuals superbly qualified to psychologically screen firearm applications. Yeah, right. Their ability to spell ‘No’ and to wield an ‘Application Rejected’ rubber stamp is unsurpassed.

I'm not sure but I certainly don't appreciate the sarcasm, if you represent the average gun owner out there you have me worried.

[Palimino]

And quite frankly those white khaki commandos only have themselves to blame, I highly doubt they were willing to change their ways.

I’m not talking about private armies (any government would be uneasy about those). The area-bound citizen force commando’s, which males had to join after their military service until they were too old for active duty (40 was the cut-off I think), are the one’s I meant. The ones that were subject to the policies and discipline of the full-time army and wore the same uniform and used the same weapons. The only difference was they weren’t full-time and hair length regulations were relaxed.

[BigBullBully]

Lol, no I don't believe disarming Joe Public is the right thing to do but there needs to be stricter regulations in who they give licenses out to.

I didn't know about the cock up that is the CFR. What resistance did it get from the groups?

Ok, anti gun talk gets my blood boiling so pardon my aggressiveness earlier.

S.A.G.A, B.G.O.A.S.A, P.H.A.S.A, G.R.A.S.A as well as security company representatives (Coin, Fidelity ect) all told the minister at the time they wanted to implement the act it would not be feasible, they suggested a joint effort to address all parties interests. The government spat in their faces, giving the impression "we don’t want stricter rules, we want your guns". This left the organisations no choice but to defend themselves and their members rights, so court applications were lodged to stop the act on it's un-constitutional basis. This doesn’t include the lawsuits for compensation for all the people that handed their firearms in, which in my view is government sponsored theft.

You see the government is between a rock and a hard place, if they scrap the whole thing lawsuits will rain from the sky upon them, if they keep on with this sham, the coffers will run dry and then what. No money for crime fighting means civil revolt which is exactly what they wanted to prevent by taking our guns away. They are screwed, if only they accepted the olive branch when it was offered this all could have been avoided. Btw of the 2 000 000 + licensed owners only about 10-15 % have complied with relicensing, what does that tell you.

[WilD_CaT]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Plans-to-improve-firearm-applications-20101214

I'd be interested to hear from those on this forum that believed government were taking steps to disarm the public?

I think many policies the government openly promotes, or atleast allows discussion on, move closer to a socialised (I mean this is the extreme sense, EG. Mines nationalisation, not the welfare sense) system. If you do have a look at the most extreme forms of this system, it is easier to keep the population under control by taking away their arms.

However, saying that, despite being allied with SACP and Cosatu, a lot of official economic policy documents are quite pro market in certain key areas, foreign policy is one that allows for diplomacy and trade and not invasion (Unlike the US) so there are actual plenty of positive things by our government, if one bothers to get down to the nitty gritty of some of the policies that comes out, and not just media propaganda.

I have always been pro right to bear arms (Individual freedom/choice). As for when the laws changed, I think the intention was to make it harder for criminals to get weapons, not to disarm the ordinary law abiding citizens (Even if that was one of the consequences of the new laws).

However the more you restrict supply of weapons on the open market, the more profit can be made selling on the black market. Fact of reality. Prohibition doesn't work, be it alcohol, marijuana or guns (Limited prohibition).

I don't think it is really the states or ANC's actual agenda to disarm the population, but one of the important reasons to be an armed individual is to give yourself some chance of protecting your rights. No one is infereing that they will be abused for sure, but you can never rule it out, particularly in light of the fact we are a young african democracy, and we just can't seem to shake the ghost of apartheid off our backs.

There are a lot of angry, misguided Julias' out there with money and politicial influence. After Zuma, who steps up? And after him?

[WilD_CaT]

Lol, no I don't believe disarming Joe Public is the right thing to do but there needs to be stricter regulations in who they give licenses out to.

I think unfortunately you will have the odd accident etc. The real world is not a utopia. But legislation will never affect criminals.

[Fudzy]

I think unfortunately you will have the odd accident etc. The real world is not a utopia. But legislation will never affect criminals.

True that, but then the guys who mow down their families and then themselves aren't usually criminals before that happens. Well at least criminals that used guns as their modus operandi anyway.

[Palimino]

I don't think it is really the states or ANC's actual agenda to disarm the population, but one of the important reasons to be an armed individual is to give yourself some chance of protecting your rights.

I do! That has been the agenda from the get-go (see post #17) and it’s not been subtle either. Disarming the population because of crime is a specious reason. Arm the criminals-in-uniform. Steal or ‘lose’ SAPS and military firearms. What about the various stashes of ‘revolutionary’ firearms around the country? First disarm anyone who may object to our scummy behaviour. Safer.

[grayston]

+1

Was in a que on 31/09/09.
Was assisted around h2300.
Up to now I didn't her a thing.
My application was an easy one.
I am a dedicated Sports Hunter with all the accreditations ans recommendations from a Hunting Association.
Still nothing happened.

"Applicant has slight dyslexia and doesn't know how many days are in September. Application denied."

[WilD_CaT]

I do! That has been the agenda from the get-go (see post #17) and it’s not been subtle either. Disarming the population because of crime is a specious reason. Arm the criminals-in-uniform. Steal or ‘lose’ SAPS and military firearms. What about the various stashes of ‘revolutionary’ firearms around the country? First disarm anyone who may object to our scummy behaviour. Safer.

But most of those examples are military, which is controled by the state. I would prefer military disarmament and for ordinary citizens to be armed.

At the end of the day you cannot claim the police is a government agency and not the military. After all, military's have been used by governments to control the populace.

At the end of the day, the biggest deterrant to a criminal is how much he fears getting caught and what those consequences would be.

Trial + jail, not that big of a deal, atleast not when compared to the possibility of being killed by an armed home owner.

At the end of the day the biggest deterrant to crime is your potential victims being armed. Yes it is highly probable that this will result in an escalation of conflict, but someone has to be back down, either you or the criminal. Let gun owners have the right to kill trespassers on their property if they deem their lives to be under threat (Not the state)... and any criminals caught/shot and claiming harm from owners defending themselves must be thrown in jail and all cases immediately dismissed.

Guns make the "battlefield" even, the laws should make the legal system one sided in favour of legitimate property owners.

[marine1]

"Applicant has slight dyslexia and doesn't know how many days are in September. Application denied."
This is not the topic for you, maybe go and start a gun free SA one ;)

[grayston]

At the end of the day the biggest deterrant to crime is your potential victims being armed.

Golly. And there was me thinking it was equality, good governance, effective policing and lack of poverty.

I have so much to learn.

[Alan]

Golly. And there was me thinking it was equality, good governance, effective policing and lack of poverty.

I have so much to learn.

You should know better being a good liberal. Biggest deterrent to crime is to just give people stuff for free so they don't have to bother stealing it.

[Fudzy]

Thank you Alan and marine1 for going off topic to attack a poster.


But most of those examples are military, which is controled by the state. I would prefer military disarmament and for ordinary citizens to be armed.


Are there any states like this?

[theratman]

Of course they are! Total paranoia rules! The genius plan to amalgamate the Metro police with the SAPS bears the grubby fingerprints of the government’s mission to centralise all potential threats to their hegemony. Other plans to remove any possible threats include:

#1 The commando’s have been disbanded.



#2 The navy has been rendered ineffectual.

#3 The air-force has been rendered ineffectual.

#4 The army has been rendered useless and has provided a patronage haven for supporters.

#5 There are ongoing attempts to disarm the population.

#6 Restrictive legislation has been put into place to prevent the population from importing weaponry (to protect themselves from criminals).

#7 Any half-way effective police unit has been disbanded like child-abuse, rape etc. units and the Scorpions (of course).

#8 The ongoing attempt to centralise the metro police with the SAPS.

#9 School shooting teams have been disbanded.

I am especially narked about #9. One of my sons got his school colours for musketry (shooting) in grade 8. He was in the last cohort of students before the school shooting team was disbanded (he didn’t wear khaki incidentally – school uniform). His colours were quite a rarity because the means of getting them didn’t exist any longer. He traded on this for the rest of his school career.



Fudzy


Who would teach gun competency? MK and APLA retreads? My big toe knows more about gun competency than they ever will. So do most SA male citizens who did military service.

For your interest.

-1.

[grayston]

I would prefer military disarmament and for ordinary citizens to be armed.



Are there any states like this?

Texas, circa 1860, I believe.