IRP5 Forms for prior financial year ends?

[AwTroN]

Hey Folk,

So, I have with this past financial year end eventually both registered for Tax, and completed my submission successfully (obviously not having done prior years).

Sars is now requesting of me to submit for 2008 and 2009.

I requested my IRP5 forms from my employer for those 2 years (less than 5 years back, which in accordance to Sars is the legal requirement for employers to keep such documents), however I am having difficulty retrieving this from my employer.

I would really appreciate some advice on how to proceed?

I am aware I should have submitted from the moment I became eligible for tax registration, and hence I sorted this out last year, better late than never. But now, I need to resolve 08 and 09, but how if my employer is not helpful?

Thanks

[lws]

I had the same problem with my employer - they insisted they can't find my IRP5 for a certain period while I was on contract with them.

I then showed them a letter from SARS indicating that I was now registered for tax and all of a sudden, they were able to miraculously pull the missing IRP5 out of the hat.

I would think that it had something to do with the fact that employers are legally bound to provide that information so maybe you will be able to get more luck with SARS thrown behind you.

[AcidRaZor]

Your problem here is you were honest and probably told SARS you were eligible for tax the previous years. The "go to" response when you do start submitting returns is to pretend like it's your first time ever. But enough of the "couldashouldawudda"

Your employer *has* to give you an IRP5 each year. This is a requirement since they're suppose to pay PAYE and UIF over _for_ you UNLESS your employment contract states otherwise.

First and foremost: Did your employer deduct tax/uif from your pay?

If "yes" you have to have had IRP5's from them and you have to have had a tax number by now since the company needed to register you for tax when you became eligble
If "no" then it's your responsibility (which you started doing now) to pay over the amount of tax, which AFAIK, the company doesn't need to then furnish you with an IRP5. However, you do need payslips or invoices to prove how much you earned. (invoices if you invoiced the company as a consultant/contractor)

Your company needs to declare the salary they pay you to sars anyway, so it's strange that sars never queried that unless the company never paid tax for you (which you then have to check on your payslip if they say they did). If the payslip indicates they deducted tax and uif, it is your company's responsibility to make sure they pay the 2008/2009 and furnish you with irp5's

[AcidRaZor]

I had the same problem with my employer - they insisted they can't find my IRP5 for a certain period while I was on contract with them.

I then showed them a letter from SARS indicating that I was now registered for tax and all of a sudden, they were able to miraculously pull the missing IRP5 out of the hat.

I would think that it had something to do with the fact that employers are legally bound to provide that information so maybe you will be able to get more luck with SARS thrown behind you.

chances are they never paid over the tax. company's need to register you for tax to be able to pay over PAYE each month (if you're not registered yet). they were able to miraculously pull the IRP5 because you now had a tax number. You need to have a tax number to pay tax/get an IRP5. If the company deducted tax from your salary and never gave you an IRP5, it means they never paid tax over to sars for that period. now that you registered they had to probably pay that tax and issue you your irp5.

[thisgeek]

My wife had the same thing.. registered for tax this year, suddenly gets nailed with fines for not submitting 2009 and 2008.

Sigh.

[Jabberwocky]

My wife had the same thing.. registered for tax this year, suddenly gets nailed with fines for not submitting 2009 and 2008.

Sigh.

How bad was the fines?

[thisgeek]

R250 per year, so R500.

[AwTroN]

First and foremost: Did your employer deduct tax/uif from your pay?

If "yes" you have to have had IRP5's from them and you have to have had a tax number by now since the company needed to register you for tax when you became eligble
If "no" then it's your responsibility (which you started doing now) to pay over the amount of tax, which AFAIK, the company doesn't need to then furnish you with an IRP5. However, you do need payslips or invoices to prove how much you earned. (invoices if you invoiced the company as a consultant/contractor)

Your company needs to declare the salary they pay you to sars anyway, so it's strange that sars never queried that unless the company never paid tax for you (which you then have to check on your payslip if they say they did). If the payslip indicates they deducted tax and uif, it is your company's responsibility to make sure they pay the 2008/2009 and furnish you with irp5's

I have checked my payslips from 2008 and 2009, both years, my employer deducted Taxes.
Sars never contacted me to register whilst my employ here, and I only registered now in 2010. But as mentioned, my employer was deducting Tax in 08 and 09.
I think they may have it on file (my IRP5's), but they are just not very helpful in retrieving it unfortunately.

[AwTroN]

My wife had the same thing.. registered for tax this year, suddenly gets nailed with fines for not submitting 2009 and 2008.

Sigh.

Yes, that is exactly what is happening to me.

I am not at all reluctant to pay the R500 fine, I mean, that is really not that much considering I should have registered back then already.

However, after paying the fine, Sars still requires me to submit for 08 and 09, and how am I supposed to submit, without the necessary forms :/

[Garyvdh]

Doesn't your company use SARS Easyfile? they can re-create the IRP5 certificates? I've done that before. Don't worry about the certificate numbers if you do not know what those are (but you can re-enter the exact same certificate numbers if you know them). If their company is already registered on the easyfile program, they can go an re-create the IRP5 for you.

[AwTroN]

The thing is, I am sure they still have it, and I bet they are on EasyFile, but I have asked for it, and they just tell me "we don't have time". So what am I to do? I mean, if they are unwilling to help, do I just report them to Sars? Because I think that is my next step, because I have a deadline, and they just don't give a hoot.
Asking nicely these days, just don't cut it anymore I am afraid :(

[semaphore]

AwTron send me a PM i will see if i can help you.

[semaphore]

Doesn't your company use SARS Easyfile? they can re-create the IRP5 certificates? I've done that before. Don't worry about the certificate numbers if you do not know what those are (but you can re-enter the exact same certificate numbers if you know them). If their company is already registered on the easyfile program, they can go an re-create the IRP5 for you.

Wrong.

EasyFile only creates IRP5's based on data that exists in a system for pre-population, when you start getting to the early years pre-population will not work.

[DanielHirst]

Hi
I am sure your previous employer still has it filed somewhere. I suggest that you nag them non stop until they produce it.

Good Luck!

[AwTroN]

Thanks for all the responses.
No luck yet from my employer, but Semaphore has been real great at trying to assist :)

[Celine]

if you are registered on e-filing request the 2008 and 2009 return. the irp 5 certificates are on the system. all you need to do is finish the rest of the return i.e. check if the medical dependents are correctly completed, if you had a travel - complete that section.

[Garyvdh]

Wrong.

EasyFile only creates IRP5's based on data that exists in a system for pre-population, when you start getting to the early years pre-population will not work.

How can it be wrong, when I have done it myself.... several times.

We lost a hard drive with easyfile installed on it. The only backup I had was year old.
I was able to print the certificates that existed, but all the 2010 ones were gone.
I was able to rebuild the IRP5 documents for 2010, even after they had been submitted, using the exact same certificate numbers. :p

If you have all your payroll information in place, and you are missing a certificate, you just allocate a new certificate and change all the details including the cert. number to match the previous certificates.
Of course it helps if you have hard copy print outs and know the old certificate numbers.
But I doubt that SARS would care if a duplicate cert. was created with a diff. number.

[Celine]

i don't know what all the arguing is this is over obtaining the IRP 5 from the employer. if you log onto the system and request the return the certificate is on the system already whether the employer has lost the information or not. SARS has the information on the system they don't lose it.

[Garyvdh]

i don't know what all the arguing is this is over obtaining the IRP 5 from the employer. if you log onto the system and request the return the certificate is on the system already whether the employer has lost the information or not. SARS has the information on the system they don't lose it.

Through the web interface maybe, but not if you have lost the information through easyfile... easyfile only stores the information locally.
When you synchronise with SARS, it updates the correspondence, but does not restore lost certificates.

That's why it is very important to print the certificates when you submit to SARS.

[Celine]

gary - it doesn't matter if YOU lost your easyfile back up. the irp 5 is on the system no matter what. if i log onto my profile as an individual and you are my employer who has lost whatever backup, MY irp 5 certificate is still there.

[AwTroN]

Thanks Celine, seems you are right.

Now, the information is there on SARS, now that I have requested the 2 returns for 2008 and 2009.

How do I verify it is correct before completing the submission?

Thanks