ZTE offices in South Africa raided

[rpm]

ZTE offices raided in SA (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/business/29008-zte-offices-raided-in-sa.html)

ZTE vows to fight Home Affairs department for what it describes as an illegal raid on the company’s offices

[TirNaNog]

Well if they have illegal / forged documents then they're in for the high jump as is the home affairs officials who sold it to them I guess. I loll'd at the bit where the boss showed the cops a pic of him shaking Zuma's hand as if to say 'see, it's all cool with him!'

His claim that the competition are trying to do them in is easy to solve - prove that your guys have legal documents and make the cops / home affairs pay for wasting taxpayers money.

[HavocXphere]

Judging by what usually happens round here, they are probably both right. Forged documents on ZTE employees' side *and* an illegal search on SAPS side.

I wonder if evidence gathered in an illegal search is admissible in court. I know its not in the US, but here?

[jmak]

Poor CellC, what a day for them... first CEO then their vendor/support system...

[Brieuse]

I'm fairly certain they do need a search warrant

[marine1]

I'm fairly certain they do need a search warrantDepends....

[dj_jyno]

Poor CellC, what a day for them... first CEO then their vendor/support system...I'd like to know from all the mobile operators, but especially Vodacom, why they keep supporting companies that allegedly make themselves guilty of criminal conduct and blatent patent infringement. There are much better 3G modems out there. Start giving consumers a choice, and you'll be surprised how many people choose the more expensive brands like Sierra Wireless and Novatel.

[Pavan]

true. but cell c are now selling netcomm routers and nokia modems.

[dj_jyno]

true. but cell c are now selling netcomm routers and nokia modems.Really? They should really push that more. I was still under the impression that Cell C only stocks the Huawei range.

[Pavan]

nah. majority of stock is ZTE and Huawei. But their only mobile (battery operated) 3G router is a Netcomm one, and they've recently started selling the Nokia CS-19 modem (21.6 mbps).

[MickeyD]

Am I the only one thinking that something's fishy with this "raid"?

Who instigated the investigation?

[Pavan]

the thing is, would it be a ZTE competitor (like huawei), or one of Cell C's competitors? Seeing that ZTE are rolling out their networks in the south...?

[Pavan]

or even NSN, who were responsible for rolling out their network in the north. ZTE have rolled out in the south significantly faster, presumably for cheaper, and with far better results...

[jmak]

Just for those that forgot, this is not something that popped up now. It started before November 2010 when a previous group of ZTE workers were detained and I am really confident this is all part of the same investigative process.

http://www.techcentral.co.za/ztes-cell-c-workers-detained-in-durban/19045/

[portcullis]

I wouldn't be surprised if somebody at ZTE forgot to send the monthly kickback to the various officials who are ensuring the company is able to operate in SA with relative impunity and the officials sent them a little reminder of what happens when backhanders aren't received in time.

[deweyzeph]

The HAWKS and the SAPS should be raiding Home Affairs instead and arresting all the corrupt Home Affairs officials who issued those permits.

[marine1]

I wouldn't be surprised if somebody at ZTE forgot to send the monthly kickback to the various officials who are ensuring the company is able to operate in SA with relative impunity and the officials sent them a little reminder of what happens when backhanders aren't received in time.Completely agree, seems someone was pissed off

[StevenC]

You know what sound the illegal immigrants made when they saw home affairs rolling up?

WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

[Roadrunner]

Home affairs should get their own corrupt affairs sorted out, before pointing the finger at others.

Bunch of Hippocrates.

[Matsepane]

is not fir the first time this issue comes up.something is going in ZTE

[The_Librarian]

Judging by what usually happens round here, they are probably both right. Forged documents on ZTE employees' side *and* an illegal search on SAPS side.

I wonder if evidence gathered in an illegal search is admissible in court. I know its not in the US, but here?

Technically the same should apply.

Should be interesting.

[Origin248]

This is such BULL****! I was in the Cell C office when it happened they went as far as to haul people who have been South African citizens for over 2 decades but who weren't born in South Africa. They didn't believe that the South African ID's and passports were real and demanded to know where their PR and naturalisation documents are. The poor folks grew up in the country and call themselves South Africans and they get treated like criminals. I heard that it was worse in the ZTE head office - they just hauled EVERYONE to the police station first and then checked to see who they were.

[Beri]

I'm fairly certain they do need a search warrant

no they do not if they did the search under the Immegration act. Then Home affairs will be the lead. No search warrants needed.
Same with customs. They also do not need one.
But if the cops /hawks did the raid under the police act and they had info and they had the time then they should have asked for a warrant.

[jmak]

I'd like to know from all the mobile operators, but especially Vodacom, why they keep supporting companies that allegedly make themselves guilty of criminal conduct and blatent patent infringement. There are much better 3G modems out there. Start giving consumers a choice, and you'll be surprised how many people choose the more expensive brands like Sierra Wireless and Novatel.

I think you will find that Huawei en ZTE has so much support financially from China, and cheap labour behind it that no-one else can really compete in the market with them. These two companies are already starting to dominate the telecom operators infrastructure purely due to price. Without getting cheaper equipment in the battle will be even harder for telco's to drop the prices and this will not sit well with consumers.

So far only ZTE is in the spotlight for criminal conduct, and for that you will have to go to CellC and 8ta to ask the question why they support these companies (As far as I know neither MTN nor Vodacom has large contracts with them). But the answer will be simple, it is cheaper. Same way Apple was caught pants down with the sweat shops.

[Origin248]

I think you will find that Huawei en ZTE has so much support financially from China, and cheap labour behind it that no-one else can really compete in the market with them. These two companies are already starting to dominate the telecom operators infrastructure purely due to price. Without getting cheaper equipment in the battle will be even harder for telco's to drop the prices and this will not sit well with consumers.

So far only ZTE is in the spotlight for criminal conduct, and for that you will have to go to CellC and 8ta to ask the question why they support these companies (As far as I know neither MTN nor Vodacom has large contracts with them). But the answer will be simple, it is cheaper. Same way Apple was caught pants down with the sweat shops.

Vodacom choose Huawei as the preferred vendor for new site rollouts last year and MTN has huge contracts with Huawei in the rest of Africa and to a lesser extent so do Vodacom. Huawei is now the worlds 2nd biggest telecoms equipment provider by revenue and with the exception of the US which uses national security as a concern to block Huawei's entry basically every major market uses Huawei in some form or another.

[The_Librarian]

This is such BULL****! I was in the Cell C office when it happened they went as far as to haul people who have been South African citizens for over 2 decades but who weren't born in South Africa. They didn't believe that the South African ID's and passports were real and demanded to know where their PR and naturalisation documents are. The poor folks grew up in the country and call themselves South Africans and they get treated like criminals. I heard that it was worse in the ZTE head office - they just hauled EVERYONE to the police station first and then checked to see who they were.

Going to get ugly soon...

[Niren_M]

or even NSN, who were responsible for rolling out their network in the north. ZTE have rolled out in the south significantly faster, presumably for cheaper, and with far better results...

What proof do you have? Do you work in the Telecoms industry? Do you have the facts and figures of Cell C's network rollout? Do you work for ZTE/Cell C?

[Pavan]

I'm in Telecoms yes, and I work with ZTE, Huawei and NSN on a daily basis. NSN have rolled out SHOCKINGLY poor infrastructure in the North with untold problems and costs...

[garp]

This is absurd in a country with something like 2 million illegal immigrants and borders like sieves. If they want illegal immigrants, the can just go to the park down my street where they'll find hundreds of illegal Zimbabweans lounging around. At least the ZTE guys are economically productive. There is obviously some kind of ulterior/political motive here.

[Podcast]

I saw this in action was very dramatic !

[hsark]

This is absurd in a country with something like 2 million illegal immigrants and borders like sieves. If they want illegal immigrants, the can just go to the park down my street where they'll find hundreds of illegal Zimbabweans lounging around. At least the ZTE guys are economically productive. There is obviously some kind of ulterior/political motive here. no the zims guys are usually are beaten to death , their houses burnt or goods stolen, yes the ZTE guys really have it tough time

[The_Librarian]

It's so ironic that to get something done with the least fuss in this country you have to employ illegals.

*sigh*

[Pavan]

Must be so *** being afraid all the time when you've come with a multi-national company to SA to do what you've been paid for and trained to do. I mean these guys are qualified engineers and developers, proper professionals, yet they have to almost 'live in fear'... F me.

[Podcast]

Must be so *** being afraid all the time when you've come with a multi-national company to SA to do what you've been paid for and trained to do. I mean these guys are qualified engineers and developers, proper professionals, yet they have to almost 'live in fear'... F me.
I agree

[TowerGuru]

This is such BULL****! I was in the Cell C office when it happened they went as far as to haul people who have been South African citizens for over 2 decades but who weren't born in South Africa. They didn't believe that the South African ID's and passports were real and demanded to know where their PR and naturalisation documents are. The poor folks grew up in the country and call themselves South Africans and they get treated like criminals. I heard that it was worse in the ZTE head office - they just hauled EVERYONE to the police station first and then checked to see who they were.

Phew!!! Lucky they didnt do that to us in the Durban office.

[SteveO]

If I were you guys I would google cases of illegal immigration and other silly things that ZTE and Huawei have done, its widely known in the industry, well atleast by the other vendors.

Huawei has some shocking stories surrounding the way they ship in workers and in some cases just leave them there. As someone mentioned earlier they are backed by the Chinese government, but if I remember correctly Huawei has majority of the backing.

From stories in the industry, it was suggested that ZTE had almost no staff in SA. All the guys working on Cell C have been pushed to SA recently. If you think about how fast they rolled out the Cell C network and how many guys they have on site (compared to the European vendors) I would easily estimate the number of guys working, legally or not, at around 2000.

The vendor I work for, who has been in SA and Africa for a loooong time, only has around 2500 staff in Africa

[Podcast]

This is such BULL****! I was in the Cell C office when it happened they went as far as to haul people who have been South African citizens for over 2 decades but who weren't born in South Africa. They didn't believe that the South African ID's and passports were real and demanded to know where their PR and naturalisation documents are. The poor folks grew up in the country and call themselves South Africans and they get treated like criminals. I heard that it was worse in the ZTE head office - they just hauled EVERYONE to the police station first and then checked to see who they were.

It was bad hey ZTE is in the same office park as my company. Looked like the world was going to end with all the drama. Such a pity there goes all hopes of a Chinese canteen in our office park. :(

[Mier]

Vodacom choose Huawei as the preferred vendor for new site rollouts last year and MTN has huge contracts with Huawei in the rest of Africa and to a lesser extent so do Vodacom. Huawei is now the worlds 2nd biggest telecoms equipment provider by revenue and with the exception of the US which uses national security as a concern to block Huawei's entry basically every major market uses Huawei in some form or another.

Huawei also supplies radio equipment to MTN South Africa and ZTE supplies MTN Swaziland.

[devilfp]

Well if they have illegal / forged documents then they're in for the high jump as is the home affairs officials who sold it to them I guess. I loll'd at the bit where the boss showed the cops a pic of him shaking Zuma's hand as if to say 'see, it's all cool with him!'

His claim that the competition are trying to do them in is easy to solve - prove that your guys have legal documents and make the cops / home affairs pay for wasting taxpayers money.

Yeah. Home Affairs is nailing them self in this operation. But then again its an everyday thing these days in SA.

[elvis_presley]

I'm fairly certain they do need a search warrant

Weren't they, in essence, just walking into the premises and asking the people for work permits? The headline conjures up images of doors being kicked in and people being kicked in the face. I can understand needing a search warrant if they come in and want to take away your PCs, etc for forensic analysis, but this just seemed the same as police pulling you over and asking for your drivers license.

If the police came into my office and asked everyone to see proof of ID (drivers license, etc) - I wouldnt think anything of it, I'd be happy they're doing their job.

[drukkie]

Does it really matter who busted/reported them....if they have illegal work permits they should be fined.
end of story...

send them home...we will get treated the same way in their country...if not worse!

[TowerGuru]

The vendor I work for, who has been in SA and Africa for a loooong time, only has around 2500 staff in Africa

Plessey? :P

[ghoti]

Vodacom choose Huawei as the preferred vendor for new site rollouts last year and MTN has huge contracts with Huawei in the rest of Africa and to a lesser extent so do Vodacom. Huawei is now the worlds 2nd biggest telecoms equipment provider by revenue and with the exception of the US which uses national security as a concern to block Huawei's entry basically every major market uses Huawei in some form or another.

I personally also dont trust Huawei hardware. The relationship between the government and Huawei makes me suspicious. I love the Chinese, just their government is as dishonest as they come, and the chinese government is well known for hacking and industrial espionage. I honestly believe they are the most prolific hackers in the world now (this is based on my own server logs located in the US and EU).

[dacha]

I'd like to know from all the mobile operators, but especially Vodacom, why they keep supporting companies that allegedly make themselves guilty of criminal conduct and blatent patent infringement. There are much better 3G modems out there. Start giving consumers a choice, and you'll be surprised how many people choose the more expensive brands like Sierra Wireless and Novatel.

What patent infringement? Only Microsoft and Apple are after the Android manufacturers with questionable patents, and only as a strategy to keep Android from spreading and taking sales away from iPhone and Windows Phone.

[dj_jyno]

What patent infringement? Only Microsoft and Apple are after the Android manufacturers with questionable patents, and only as a strategy to keep Android from spreading and taking sales away from iPhone and Windows Phone.I never said anything about Android or cellphones, did I? I was referring to a specific case where ZTE copied the design of a Huawei 3G USB modem to the last detail... they even copied the label and removed the Huawei logo.
China’s largest telecom equipment maker, Huawei today filed lawsuits in Germany, France, and Hungary against its competitor, ZTE Corporation for patent and copy right infringements. According to a press release, Huawei claims that ZTE is infringing a series of its patents relating to data card and LTE technologies and also, illegally using a Huawei-related trademark. Source (http://www.greyreview.com/2011/04/28/telecom-maker-giant-huawei-sues-its-rival-zte-for-patent-and-copyright-infringments/)

[Origin248]

Weren't they, in essence, just walking into the premises and asking the people for work permits? The headline conjures up images of doors being kicked in and people being kicked in the face. I can understand needing a search warrant if they come in and want to take away your PCs, etc for forensic analysis, but this just seemed the same as police pulling you over and asking for your drivers license.

If the police came into my office and asked everyone to see proof of ID (drivers license, etc) - I wouldnt think anything of it, I'd be happy they're doing their job.

Most South Africans don't have their ID's on them - how would you feel that instead of computers pc's or document being taken that everyone in your staff who only carry their drivers licenses instead of their ID/Passports get hauled into police custody until someone can go home and pick up your documents?

[Origin248]

If I were you guys I would google cases of illegal immigration and other silly things that ZTE and Huawei have done, its widely known in the industry, well atleast by the other vendors.

Huawei has some shocking stories surrounding the way they ship in workers and in some cases just leave them there. As someone mentioned earlier they are backed by the Chinese government, but if I remember correctly Huawei has majority of the backing.

From stories in the industry, it was suggested that ZTE had almost no staff in SA. All the guys working on Cell C have been pushed to SA recently. If you think about how fast they rolled out the Cell C network and how many guys they have on site (compared to the European vendors) I would easily estimate the number of guys working, legally or not, at around 2000.

The vendor I work for, who has been in SA and Africa for a loooong time, only has around 2500 staff in Africa

That is just silly, all vendors (Ericsson, NSN, Huawei, ZTE) uses sub-contractors for most of their site builds, civil works and tower constructions. There is a legion of engineers coming in from China definitely - but they're far more skilled engineers that complete the "high tech" stuff. The rest are done mostly by other multi-nationals that specialize in different aspects of site builds.

[TirNaNog]

Yeah. Home Affairs is nailing them self in this operation. But then again its an everyday thing these days in SA.Well it's more a case of the corrupt element vs the good guys within the cops and home affairs. It's always like that. There are some genuinely good people working at government, just don't expect to hear about them in the papers any time soon.

[portcullis]

What patent infringement? Only Microsoft and Apple are after the Android manufacturers with questionable patents, and only as a strategy to keep Android from spreading and taking sales away from iPhone and Windows Phone.

Ten years ago I had a Hauwei salesman sit in my office showing me their Quidway routers. They were exact rip offs of the Cisco 25xx and 36xx routers - even down to the model numbers.

[portcullis]

I honestly believe they are the most prolific hackers in the world now (this is based on my own server logs located in the US and EU).

+1

My servers are in the UK.

[TowerGuru]

That is just silly, all vendors (Ericsson, NSN, Huawei, ZTE) uses sub-contractors for most of their site builds, civil works and tower constructions. There is a legion of engineers coming in from China definitely - but they're far more skilled engineers that complete the "high tech" stuff. The rest are done mostly by other multi-nationals that specialize in different aspects of site builds.

This.

[elvis_presley]

Most South Africans don't have their ID's on them - how would you feel that instead of computers pc's or document being taken that everyone in your staff who only carry their drivers licenses instead of their ID/Passports get hauled into police custody until someone can go home and pick up your documents?

I specifically said I wouldn't mind if they asked for drivers licenses, etc. Not sure why you excluded them and then asked me a totally different question?

[Biscuit_H]

I used to work for ZTE JHB Offices.
I must say, this isn't really their problem.. Because I was in Administration Department. All I know was home affair being REALLY SLOW on issuing working permits and VISA. And all the engineers are carrying their passports everyday, even I am not working with them now, if they need help, I will help them.
Just my saying..