Ritalin-Boy
21-08-2011, 05:29 PM
I'm just interested to get people's opinions on the situation going on between Israel, Gaza and Egypt
View Full Version : What are your views on the situation in Israel at the moment?
Shibal
21-08-2011, 07:09 PM
The weather is typical for this time of the year.
WTF is the point of starting a thread like this and you don't present your own views as an opener?
Is this a junior school project?
WTF is the point of starting a thread like this and you don't present your own views as an opener?
Is this a junior school project?
killadoob
21-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Don't worry about shibal he very rarely has anything interesting to say, i am surprized he hasn't asked if you hate the white west yet :p
The situation is not good, the root cause is the UN who do nothing.
The situation is not good, the root cause is the UN who do nothing.
MyWorld
21-08-2011, 07:17 PM
If Israel lay down their arms, there will still be violence and war, if the Palestines and co. lay down their arms, there will peace.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.
Pr⊕phet
21-08-2011, 07:18 PM
/predicts the normal thread **** storm in a while when pro and anti pros are in.
killadoob
21-08-2011, 07:21 PM
If Israel lay down their arms, there will still be violence and war, if the Palestines and co. lay down their arms, there will peace.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.
Will the palestinians get some land if they put their arms down, will israel stop illegally building?
Sometimes you gotta stand and fight, considering nobody has given the land agreement a chance i am not sure why we can rule it out as a peaceful offering that could change things.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.
Will the palestinians get some land if they put their arms down, will israel stop illegally building?
Sometimes you gotta stand and fight, considering nobody has given the land agreement a chance i am not sure why we can rule it out as a peaceful offering that could change things.
za1
21-08-2011, 07:36 PM
The weather is typical for this time of the year.
I tend to agree.
Though heating up a tad in the Sinai region, best to avoid for now, rather try the resorts around Tel-Aviv.
I tend to agree.
Though heating up a tad in the Sinai region, best to avoid for now, rather try the resorts around Tel-Aviv.
marine1
21-08-2011, 07:44 PM
If Israel lay down their arms, there will still be violence and war, if the Palestines and co. lay down their arms, there will peace.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.Having spent a long time there some time back, I would agree, its simple really. The Arabs have no value for life, they celebrate death and martyrdom.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
Very simplistic, but I believe it to be true.Having spent a long time there some time back, I would agree, its simple really. The Arabs have no value for life, they celebrate death and martyrdom.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
Robertvv
21-08-2011, 07:47 PM
shoot them Israel!
killadoob
21-08-2011, 08:01 PM
Robert your answer is they kill israel kills, they kill israel kills so we go on.
Been going on for many years and i can see how its worked.
Been going on for many years and i can see how its worked.
Hard Rain
21-08-2011, 08:28 PM
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
The little socialist-warfare state's domestic policies are doing a good job of destroying itself from within...
The little socialist-warfare state's domestic policies are doing a good job of destroying itself from within...
agentrfr
21-08-2011, 08:29 PM
I expect a fight to break out soon. Only problem is that Israel has a !$*(%& tonne of money now. I don't know how well it will end for the losers.
marine1
21-08-2011, 08:30 PM
The little socialist-warfare state's domestic policies are doing a good job of destroying it from within...Dream on sunshine
Hard Rain
21-08-2011, 08:34 PM
Dream on sunshine
See for yourself. (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4105195,00.html) Decades of military-socialist policies have left Israel in a similar position to S.A. in the 1980's...
See for yourself. (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4105195,00.html) Decades of military-socialist policies have left Israel in a similar position to S.A. in the 1980's...
Robertvv
21-08-2011, 08:53 PM
But if you zoom out, is it not a matter of Jew versus muslim.
za1
21-08-2011, 08:57 PM
The little socialist-warfare state's domestic policies are doing a good job of destroying itself from within...
Not at all, just been there, half (if not more) of these protesters are just there to say they were there, and heck, if it brings down some prices, then even better. Must say, besides felafel, found the place to be damn expensive.
Not at all, just been there, half (if not more) of these protesters are just there to say they were there, and heck, if it brings down some prices, then even better. Must say, besides felafel, found the place to be damn expensive.
Hard Rain
21-08-2011, 09:08 PM
Not at all, just been there, half (if not more) of these protesters are just there to say they were there, and heck, if it brings down some prices, then even better. Must say, besides felafel, found the place to be damn expensive.
Prices aren't high by coincidence, you know. They're the consequence of government fiscal and monetary policy...
Prices aren't high by coincidence, you know. They're the consequence of government fiscal and monetary policy...
Alan
21-08-2011, 09:23 PM
Palestinians have [-]launched about a 100 rockets and mortars[/-] lobbed a few rocks into Israel the last few days.
As Hamas announced it would renew attacks on Israelis, Palestinians fired 64 rockets at Israel. The projectiles reached Ashdod, Ashkelon, Beersheba and Ofakim, forcing more that half a million Israelis into bomb shelters. A Grad rocket fired at Beersheba killed 38-year-old Yossi Shoshan of Ofakim, who was on his way to ensure the safety of his his 9-month pregnant wife. Many others were injured in Beersheba, Ashdod and Ofakim, including a 4-month-old baby.[198][199][200] Details of some of the attacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
As Hamas announced it would renew attacks on Israelis, Palestinians fired 64 rockets at Israel. The projectiles reached Ashdod, Ashkelon, Beersheba and Ofakim, forcing more that half a million Israelis into bomb shelters. A Grad rocket fired at Beersheba killed 38-year-old Yossi Shoshan of Ofakim, who was on his way to ensure the safety of his his 9-month pregnant wife. Many others were injured in Beersheba, Ashdod and Ofakim, including a 4-month-old baby.[198][199][200] Details of some of the attacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
killadoob
21-08-2011, 09:39 PM
Palestinians have [-]launched about a 100 rockets and mortars[/-] lobbed a few rocks into Israel the last few days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
What has israel done or did you conveniently leave that out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
What has israel done or did you conveniently leave that out?
za1
21-08-2011, 09:50 PM
What has israel done or did you conveniently leave that out?
they responded to the terror attacks and mudering of their civillians, or are they not allowed to respond to the cold blooded murder of their people?
they responded to the terror attacks and mudering of their civillians, or are they not allowed to respond to the cold blooded murder of their people?
killadoob
21-08-2011, 10:12 PM
they responded to the terror attacks and mudering of their civillians, or are they not allowed to respond to the cold blooded murder of their people?
Hamas has denied the attack yet israel go after palestinians? Tell me when israel kills innocent civilians is that also murder?
It seems odd that hamas has denied and reports are coming that al queda is in egypt and planned the attacks. So let's say for instance hamas is actually telling the truth haven't israel just killed in cold blood?
It is not like hamas to deny the attack and they came from egypt so yes let's go kill some palestinians.
Hamas has denied the attack yet israel go after palestinians? Tell me when israel kills innocent civilians is that also murder?
It seems odd that hamas has denied and reports are coming that al queda is in egypt and planned the attacks. So let's say for instance hamas is actually telling the truth haven't israel just killed in cold blood?
It is not like hamas to deny the attack and they came from egypt so yes let's go kill some palestinians.
za1
21-08-2011, 10:24 PM
Israel took out the leaders of the cell that planned this attack, who happened to be in Gaza.
Hamas control Gaza and are linked to whatever happens in Gaza, unless you are saying they have lost all control, and then should not be held responsible for the various factions firing rockets at Israeli towns and planning and staging terror attacks from Gaza.
Hamas control Gaza and are linked to whatever happens in Gaza, unless you are saying they have lost all control, and then should not be held responsible for the various factions firing rockets at Israeli towns and planning and staging terror attacks from Gaza.
jackshiels
21-08-2011, 10:44 PM
These threads always end in a lock but...
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves. If North Korea decided one day to kill a few US civvies surely America would have every right to retaliate? (No one would complain about it, that's for sure).
The Jews want the right to exist in a tiny country, whilst the terrorists want them destroyed. Arabia is HUGE compared to Israel - if they are so concerned with palestinians why don't the other countries surrounding grant them asylum? The land certainly exists.
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves. If North Korea decided one day to kill a few US civvies surely America would have every right to retaliate? (No one would complain about it, that's for sure).
The Jews want the right to exist in a tiny country, whilst the terrorists want them destroyed. Arabia is HUGE compared to Israel - if they are so concerned with palestinians why don't the other countries surrounding grant them asylum? The land certainly exists.
Alan
21-08-2011, 11:41 PM
These threads always end in a lock but...
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves.
There a successful western country allied with the USA. That alone qualifies them as 'wicked'
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves.
There a successful western country allied with the USA. That alone qualifies them as 'wicked'
marine1
22-08-2011, 03:36 AM
These threads always end in a lock but...
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves. If North Korea decided one day to kill a few US civvies surely America would have every right to retaliate? (No one would complain about it, that's for sure).
The Jews want the right to exist in a tiny country, whilst the terrorists want them destroyed. Arabia is HUGE compared to Israel - if they are so concerned with palestinians why don't the other countries surrounding grant them asylum? The land certainly exists.Because asI have said before, this is not just about land ;)
What I don't understand is how people can accuse Israel of being wicked when they are simply defending themselves. If North Korea decided one day to kill a few US civvies surely America would have every right to retaliate? (No one would complain about it, that's for sure).
The Jews want the right to exist in a tiny country, whilst the terrorists want them destroyed. Arabia is HUGE compared to Israel - if they are so concerned with palestinians why don't the other countries surrounding grant them asylum? The land certainly exists.Because asI have said before, this is not just about land ;)
Hard Rain
22-08-2011, 07:36 AM
they responded to the terror attacks and mudering of their civillians, or are they not allowed to respond to the cold blooded murder of their people?
I don't think anyone denies that the Israelis shouldn't have recourse to justice and/or retribution, but it's a false dichotomy to assert that there's only what they're doing now (i.e. collective punishment, blockade, aerial bombardment) and doing nothing at all.
I don't think anyone denies that the Israelis shouldn't have recourse to justice and/or retribution, but it's a false dichotomy to assert that there's only what they're doing now (i.e. collective punishment, blockade, aerial bombardment) and doing nothing at all.
Palimino
22-08-2011, 12:30 PM
So let's say for instance hamas is actually telling the truth...
This is so unlikely that you may as well say that Israel was under attack by unicorns and pink teddy bears.
This is so unlikely that you may as well say that Israel was under attack by unicorns and pink teddy bears.
ghoti
22-08-2011, 12:45 PM
Everyone in the Middle East sucks, which is why they all leave that religious hell hole and move to more secular countries :D
Palimino
22-08-2011, 12:58 PM
Decades of military-socialist policies have left Israel in a similar position to S.A. in the 1980's...
Not so. I have looked into this. The conclusion I reached, was that socialism worked well on a small scale where everyone knew one another (kibbutzim) but failed horribly on a national scale. It helps to have a reasonable job (in a kibbutz) – or to rotate personal through the crappy jobs (that have to be done). To be stuck with a crappy job sucks.
Socialism does seem to work on the kibbutz scale. The kibbutz is a communistic entity at this ‘micro’ level but goes head-to-head within the capitalistic framework on a national level. People wanting to work for nothing - even Americans - are clamouring (volunteers). Everything is supplied – clothing, food and shelter. The work covers the full spectrum and is hard. The more unpleasant jobs are rotated. There tend to not be elites – everyone does everything. Specialised jobs have pretty permanent members although even they are required to get their hands dirty (this is policy) so that their egos are kept in control. Many of the temporary volunteers cannot be dismissed as simple sensation seekers. They stay for years and often end up joining the kibbutz as members.
However, the kibbutz model is failing, not because of a failure of socialism, but because they are losing young people born on the kibbutz (future kibbutzniks). Young people are being exposed to the ‘romance’ of the wider world via magazines, TV and volunteers. Part of Israeli military service, is spending time on a kibbutz, in the hope of this ‘fresh blood’ choosing to stay. They are usually elite units (my kibbutz specialised in paratroopers). It is a continual battle between losing members and gaining fresh members. An analogy might be a rural farm person who wants to experience the wider world.
Not so. I have looked into this. The conclusion I reached, was that socialism worked well on a small scale where everyone knew one another (kibbutzim) but failed horribly on a national scale. It helps to have a reasonable job (in a kibbutz) – or to rotate personal through the crappy jobs (that have to be done). To be stuck with a crappy job sucks.
Socialism does seem to work on the kibbutz scale. The kibbutz is a communistic entity at this ‘micro’ level but goes head-to-head within the capitalistic framework on a national level. People wanting to work for nothing - even Americans - are clamouring (volunteers). Everything is supplied – clothing, food and shelter. The work covers the full spectrum and is hard. The more unpleasant jobs are rotated. There tend to not be elites – everyone does everything. Specialised jobs have pretty permanent members although even they are required to get their hands dirty (this is policy) so that their egos are kept in control. Many of the temporary volunteers cannot be dismissed as simple sensation seekers. They stay for years and often end up joining the kibbutz as members.
However, the kibbutz model is failing, not because of a failure of socialism, but because they are losing young people born on the kibbutz (future kibbutzniks). Young people are being exposed to the ‘romance’ of the wider world via magazines, TV and volunteers. Part of Israeli military service, is spending time on a kibbutz, in the hope of this ‘fresh blood’ choosing to stay. They are usually elite units (my kibbutz specialised in paratroopers). It is a continual battle between losing members and gaining fresh members. An analogy might be a rural farm person who wants to experience the wider world.
Hard Rain
22-08-2011, 01:02 PM
It is a continual battle between losing members and gaining fresh members.
The Berlin Wall was built for a reason.
Seriously, though, I thought the last truly socialist kibbutz converted many years ago?
Edit: yeah, here's an article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/africa/27iht-27kibbutz.7265276.html?_r=1)
The Berlin Wall was built for a reason.
Seriously, though, I thought the last truly socialist kibbutz converted many years ago?
Edit: yeah, here's an article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/africa/27iht-27kibbutz.7265276.html?_r=1)
za1
22-08-2011, 01:16 PM
This is so unlikely that you may as well say that Israel was under attack by unicorns and pink teddy bears.
I've had some mushrooms that do that for you, though the frikken bears were purple.
I've had some mushrooms that do that for you, though the frikken bears were purple.
Palimino
22-08-2011, 01:38 PM
Seriously, though, I thought the last truly socialist kibbutz converted many years ago?
Edit: yeah, here's an article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/africa/27iht-27kibbutz.7265276.html?_r=1)
I read the article and found it a blend of fact and fiction. It is always possible that I didn’t experience ‘pure’ socialism but I can only relate it to my personal experience. I never heard of any kibbutzim failing through any other reasons other than the youth issue and it wasn’t because they wanted money (I have posted on this). My kibbutz was relatively wealthy so conditions among kibbutzim may differ.
There was no money whatsoever except to the extent you interacted with the outside world (bus fare, lunch, etc.). Children were brought-up communally – they didn’t sleep at home (not that they were torn from their parents). They matured quickly with good value systems. Clothes, food and shelter was provided free. Good quality tobacco was rationed but you could have as much cheaper quality tobacco as you wanted. Etc.
What I thought was quite cool, was that young kibbutznics (>16<20) got a 6 month mandatory period of leave. They could go anywhere in the world (passage paid) and be supported for 6 months – not luxury, 5 star support, but enough to get by on. I thought they were very lucky (I was poor).
Regarding the article: pensions were unnecessary, the old stayed on the kibbutz, in their houses with their friends, their children and grandchildren. There was 24 hour medical care. They availed themselves of all benefits except they didn’t work.
Edit: yeah, here's an article. (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/africa/27iht-27kibbutz.7265276.html?_r=1)
I read the article and found it a blend of fact and fiction. It is always possible that I didn’t experience ‘pure’ socialism but I can only relate it to my personal experience. I never heard of any kibbutzim failing through any other reasons other than the youth issue and it wasn’t because they wanted money (I have posted on this). My kibbutz was relatively wealthy so conditions among kibbutzim may differ.
There was no money whatsoever except to the extent you interacted with the outside world (bus fare, lunch, etc.). Children were brought-up communally – they didn’t sleep at home (not that they were torn from their parents). They matured quickly with good value systems. Clothes, food and shelter was provided free. Good quality tobacco was rationed but you could have as much cheaper quality tobacco as you wanted. Etc.
What I thought was quite cool, was that young kibbutznics (>16<20) got a 6 month mandatory period of leave. They could go anywhere in the world (passage paid) and be supported for 6 months – not luxury, 5 star support, but enough to get by on. I thought they were very lucky (I was poor).
Regarding the article: pensions were unnecessary, the old stayed on the kibbutz, in their houses with their friends, their children and grandchildren. There was 24 hour medical care. They availed themselves of all benefits except they didn’t work.
Ninja'd
22-08-2011, 01:41 PM
The guido's are invading Israel :eek: HIDE YOUR TANNING BEDS!
Greylor
22-08-2011, 02:12 PM
My view on the Israel/Palestine situation?
"It's all ****ed up."
"It's all ****ed up."
krycor
22-08-2011, 08:07 PM
The current situation is kinda screwed up and shows utter nutters these okes are. Sorry if you a fan of Israelis or Palestinians but c'mon.. even gorillas have more common sense. What makes this worse is every flippin time the Israelis and forum folk here(i haven't looked at comments above but i am sure someone said it above) that the Israelis are the **** when it comes to civilized world and the Palestinians are the bottom of the barrel. <-- utter rubbish as the Israelis this week showed where they stood this week.. under the barrel.
There is ZERO conclusive evidence of who is responsible for the attack on bus with military vac people or iud stuff on civilian car which appears to have been in the wrong place at the worst time etc.. only thing they can say is it was possibly the most well planned attack in years. Irony being that immediately after the event there was press statements that said they implicated gaza in attack, a week later there is no mention of this and its swept under the rug. Fascinating riveting stuff from such a moral army(shoot first, then decide if u guilty).. then you have Palestinians who got hammered for no reason and decided to unpack their home made missiles again. wohooo like that is gonna make a difference. Again the kill/injury count is skewed heavily but we all know by now that based on the Israeli 'this is proportional [-]attack[/-] defense' 10:1 is civilized. So much for the 'we value life' story.
Then you have the Egyptians who were attacked and rightfully is giving Israel hell over it.. about time. but I have to wonder if the attack didn't come from over there in the first place. The new Egyptian popular opinion(well allowed opinion) is not to keep the treaty with Israel going for longer than needed so looks like Israel is in a bit of a hard place losing friends with the Arab revolution.
btw the oh so hyped defense dome of southern Israel stopped as little as 5% of the rockets shot over the border. While the events gave a nice distraction from the current issues(the tent city), swept under the run a new expansion plan for illegal settlement in the west bank the non-performing rocket shield is going to get many red faced. Gonna be interesting elections to come in Israel especially when it comes out who was really responsible for attacks.
There is ZERO conclusive evidence of who is responsible for the attack on bus with military vac people or iud stuff on civilian car which appears to have been in the wrong place at the worst time etc.. only thing they can say is it was possibly the most well planned attack in years. Irony being that immediately after the event there was press statements that said they implicated gaza in attack, a week later there is no mention of this and its swept under the rug. Fascinating riveting stuff from such a moral army(shoot first, then decide if u guilty).. then you have Palestinians who got hammered for no reason and decided to unpack their home made missiles again. wohooo like that is gonna make a difference. Again the kill/injury count is skewed heavily but we all know by now that based on the Israeli 'this is proportional [-]attack[/-] defense' 10:1 is civilized. So much for the 'we value life' story.
Then you have the Egyptians who were attacked and rightfully is giving Israel hell over it.. about time. but I have to wonder if the attack didn't come from over there in the first place. The new Egyptian popular opinion(well allowed opinion) is not to keep the treaty with Israel going for longer than needed so looks like Israel is in a bit of a hard place losing friends with the Arab revolution.
btw the oh so hyped defense dome of southern Israel stopped as little as 5% of the rockets shot over the border. While the events gave a nice distraction from the current issues(the tent city), swept under the run a new expansion plan for illegal settlement in the west bank the non-performing rocket shield is going to get many red faced. Gonna be interesting elections to come in Israel especially when it comes out who was really responsible for attacks.
Palimino
23-08-2011, 10:10 AM
...only thing they can say is it was possibly the most well planned attack in years.
I would tend to agree. The Palestinian’s are too useless to be as organised as this. The ‘bar’ may have been raised. Maybe a new player?
I would tend to agree. The Palestinian’s are too useless to be as organised as this. The ‘bar’ may have been raised. Maybe a new player?
ponder
23-08-2011, 10:41 AM
The Jews want the right to exist in a tiny country, whilst the terrorists want them destroyed. Arabia is HUGE compared to Israel - if they are so concerned with palestinians why don't the other countries surrounding grant them asylum? The land certainly exists.
Why did those countries that created Israel not do so in on their own land?
Why did those countries that created Israel not do so in on their own land?
seventhson
23-08-2011, 10:44 AM
The little socialist-warfare state's domestic policies are doing a good job of destroying itself from within...
Yeah you can only keep on doing what they do for so long.
I don't hate jewish people just their state at the moment.
Yeah you can only keep on doing what they do for so long.
I don't hate jewish people just their state at the moment.
za1
23-08-2011, 11:35 AM
Why did those countries that created Israel not do so in on their own land?
Why did the countries that created Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, saudi barbaria, Iran, Iraq not do so on their own land?
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
Why did the countries that created Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, saudi barbaria, Iran, Iraq not do so on their own land?
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
seventhson
23-08-2011, 11:39 AM
Why did the countries that created Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, saudi barbaria, Iran, Iraq not do so on their own land?
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
Promised by who god?
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
Promised by who god?
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
Hard Rain
23-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Why did the countries that created Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, saudi barbaria, Iran, Iraq not do so on their own land?
They were colonialists, carving up their bounty of the Ottoman Empire. The nation-states you mentioned were created for the benefit of those in power; usually with authoritarian minority regimes. Until then there weren't political boundaries between these places, people could migrate.
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Well, no. Jewish migration to the area was mostly extraneous so it's not difficult to imagine why European Jews would've been associated with a colonial enterprise rather than a purely nationalist enterprise; especially when their autonomy and future nation-state was guaranteed by a colonial power (the same way the aforementioned authoritarian minority Arab regimes were guaranteed).
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
Yes, but it needs to be remembered that all of this was done by extraneous powers with different interests at stake to the people on the ground. Had the divided areas been decided by plebiscite it may have been more legitimate, as had happened countless times in Europe. The thing is, that's a European standard, it was not going to be applied to their colonies.
They were colonialists, carving up their bounty of the Ottoman Empire. The nation-states you mentioned were created for the benefit of those in power; usually with authoritarian minority regimes. Until then there weren't political boundaries between these places, people could migrate.
The Palestine Mandate /Israel was promised to the Jewish people in exactly the same way as the Arab countries were established.
Well, no. Jewish migration to the area was mostly extraneous so it's not difficult to imagine why European Jews would've been associated with a colonial enterprise rather than a purely nationalist enterprise; especially when their autonomy and future nation-state was guaranteed by a colonial power (the same way the aforementioned authoritarian minority Arab regimes were guaranteed).
Of the Palestine Mandate 77% was then taken away to create Trans Jordan, yet that land was promised to the Jewish people. More land was then taken away until something like barely 14% remained for the Jewish people.
Yes, but it needs to be remembered that all of this was done by extraneous powers with different interests at stake to the people on the ground. Had the divided areas been decided by plebiscite it may have been more legitimate, as had happened countless times in Europe. The thing is, that's a European standard, it was not going to be applied to their colonies.
za1
23-08-2011, 11:43 AM
Promised by who god?
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
Indeed that would be daft, not sure why you brought it up, except that you obviously have no idea of the real history of the region.
The league of nations at the time, 1922, determined that the whole of the Palestine Mandate under British control was to be allocated to the Jewish people.
From then on, more and more of the land was taken way from the Jewish people, until they were left with something like 14% of the orignal land that was supposed to be given to them.
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
Indeed that would be daft, not sure why you brought it up, except that you obviously have no idea of the real history of the region.
The league of nations at the time, 1922, determined that the whole of the Palestine Mandate under British control was to be allocated to the Jewish people.
From then on, more and more of the land was taken way from the Jewish people, until they were left with something like 14% of the orignal land that was supposed to be given to them.
Hard Rain
23-08-2011, 11:44 AM
Promised by who god?
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
He means promised by the British; like the Balfour Declaration etc. Basically there had been Jewish and Zionist interests trying to influence Britain for their national ideals since the 19th Century.
You can't go around saying god promised us this and that lol.
He means promised by the British; like the Balfour Declaration etc. Basically there had been Jewish and Zionist interests trying to influence Britain for their national ideals since the 19th Century.
za1
23-08-2011, 11:54 AM
He means promised by the British; like the Balfour Declaration etc. Basically there had been Jewish and Zionist interests trying to influence Britain for their national ideals since the 19th Century.
And exactly the same as there was arab interests and influence at the same time. Either way the land was promised to the Jewish people by the league of Nations, the British, the UN. The only thing that kept on changing was the area, it just got smaller and smaller...
And exactly the same as there was arab interests and influence at the same time. Either way the land was promised to the Jewish people by the league of Nations, the British, the UN. The only thing that kept on changing was the area, it just got smaller and smaller...
Hard Rain
23-08-2011, 11:57 AM
And exactly the same as there was arab interests and influence at the same time. Either way the land was promised to the Jewish people by the league of Nations, the British, the UN. The only thing that kept on changing was the area, it just got smaller and smaller...
Yes, there were a lot of competing interests fighting for the scraps of the empire, but it's notable that the British especially placed far more stock in arming and guaranteeing authoritarian minorities at the behest of the people as a whole. It's no surprise that they'd place greater sway to limiting the extent of a future Jewish state, after all, keeping the vast lands and resources of their Arabian puppets in line was greatly more important to them.
I think it is also important to recall that there were significant factions of militant Zionists whose goals were not merely for a nation-state decided by extraneous powers...
Yes, there were a lot of competing interests fighting for the scraps of the empire, but it's notable that the British especially placed far more stock in arming and guaranteeing authoritarian minorities at the behest of the people as a whole. It's no surprise that they'd place greater sway to limiting the extent of a future Jewish state, after all, keeping the vast lands and resources of their Arabian puppets in line was greatly more important to them.
I think it is also important to recall that there were significant factions of militant Zionists whose goals were not merely for a nation-state decided by extraneous powers...
za1
23-08-2011, 12:18 PM
Yes, there were a lot of competing interests fighting for the scraps of the empire, but it's notable that the British especially placed far more stock in arming and guaranteeing authoritarian minorities at the behest of the people as a whole.
Indeed, and its quite unfortunate the policies of the then British Empire are the cause for some of todays major conflicts, besides the Middle East we have the India/Pakistan fiasco and not to mention the mess they left in Africa.
Indeed, and its quite unfortunate the policies of the then British Empire are the cause for some of todays major conflicts, besides the Middle East we have the India/Pakistan fiasco and not to mention the mess they left in Africa.
Arthur
23-08-2011, 12:36 PM
Useful guide to the Middle East:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=11382&d=1314095642
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=11382&d=1314095642
sparticus
25-08-2011, 11:30 AM
Having spent a long time there some time back, I would agree, its simple really. The Arabs have no value for life, they celebrate death and martyrdom.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
Thats a bit generalization , I've seen emails how the Israeli's armed forces bombed schools with kids bodies lying around. Then I have seen how a arab bomber killed innocent people and kids in a crowded area. You get cruel people everywhere , don't generalize.
Its these type of reactions that means we will never resolve our issues.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
Thats a bit generalization , I've seen emails how the Israeli's armed forces bombed schools with kids bodies lying around. Then I have seen how a arab bomber killed innocent people and kids in a crowded area. You get cruel people everywhere , don't generalize.
Its these type of reactions that means we will never resolve our issues.
Albereth
25-08-2011, 12:08 PM
<------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
People who care People who don't care Me
Hmmm - that didn't work
People who care People who don't care Me
Hmmm - that didn't work
Palimino
26-08-2011, 11:51 AM
I've seen emails how the Israeli's armed forces bombed schools with kids bodies lying around.
Anything more definite than anonymous emails? I haven’t seen (or heard) of anything like that. I call BS.
Anything more definite than anonymous emails? I haven’t seen (or heard) of anything like that. I call BS.
Ady
27-08-2011, 08:22 AM
Having spent a long time there some time back, I would agree, its simple really. The Arabs have no value for life, they celebrate death and martyrdom.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
I'm with you on this one. The Isreali's don't take any cr@p they strike back and thats that.
The Jews are the opposite.
Bottom line, if you are attacked, you strike back or else you will keep getting hit from all sides and eventually you will be conquered.
Israel is fighting for her right to exists.
I'm with you on this one. The Isreali's don't take any cr@p they strike back and thats that.
killadoob
27-08-2011, 08:31 AM
read an interesting article, oddly enough it was a bible website about iran inciting the violence between the two because they don't want peace.
They reckon it was iranians who came through the sinai border knowing israel would blame hamas. Considering hamas said they had nothing to do with it i am starting to wonder whether iran is fueling this war.
http://frankdimora.typepad.com/
Don't get put off by the bible parts too much just read the article, very interesting.
Perhaps someone who knows the bible a bit better than myself could answer this:
Psalm 83 war, this is basically israel getting attacked but didn't that already happen or am i missing something? why are they bringing up this psalm 83 thing that already happened or does it not apply to the last all out attack against israel?
They reckon it was iranians who came through the sinai border knowing israel would blame hamas. Considering hamas said they had nothing to do with it i am starting to wonder whether iran is fueling this war.
http://frankdimora.typepad.com/
Don't get put off by the bible parts too much just read the article, very interesting.
Perhaps someone who knows the bible a bit better than myself could answer this:
Psalm 83 war, this is basically israel getting attacked but didn't that already happen or am i missing something? why are they bringing up this psalm 83 thing that already happened or does it not apply to the last all out attack against israel?
Palimino
27-08-2011, 09:17 AM
They reckon it was iranians who came through the sinai border knowing israel would blame hamas. Considering hamas said they had nothing to do with it i am starting to wonder whether iran is fueling this war.
It’s plausible. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shiite. Two birds with one stone. Nail the hated Israel and the hated Sunni with one operation.
It’s plausible. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shiite. Two birds with one stone. Nail the hated Israel and the hated Sunni with one operation.
killadoob
27-08-2011, 09:32 AM
It’s plausible. Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shiite. Two birds with one stone. Nail the hated Israel and the hated Sunni with one operation.
They also know any attack on israel will end in hamas taking the blame. That is why i found it odd that hamas denied the attacks when in the past they claimed them. i am not saying hamas are angels but they seem to genuinely want peace since they came to power.
Pal doesn't it strike you as odd that hamas want to go and ask for a state and then attack israel just before they are due to make a formal request? It seems there is plenty support for a palestinian state so i cannot understand why hamas would now turn to violence. I know hamas was firing the rockets but that was in retaliation for israel not believing they had nothing to do with the attacks.
They also know any attack on israel will end in hamas taking the blame. That is why i found it odd that hamas denied the attacks when in the past they claimed them. i am not saying hamas are angels but they seem to genuinely want peace since they came to power.
Pal doesn't it strike you as odd that hamas want to go and ask for a state and then attack israel just before they are due to make a formal request? It seems there is plenty support for a palestinian state so i cannot understand why hamas would now turn to violence. I know hamas was firing the rockets but that was in retaliation for israel not believing they had nothing to do with the attacks.
Palimino
27-08-2011, 09:48 AM
i am not saying hamas are angels but they seem to genuinely want peace since they came to power.
I disagree. Hamas have always been a murdering, lying mob with the morals of an alley cat ever since they came to power. If they ‘genuinely want peace’ it’s because they have been checkmated by Israel. I make the point that it would suit Iran to have Hamas and Israel at one another’s throats. Not because I think Hamas are fallen angels.
I disagree. Hamas have always been a murdering, lying mob with the morals of an alley cat ever since they came to power. If they ‘genuinely want peace’ it’s because they have been checkmated by Israel. I make the point that it would suit Iran to have Hamas and Israel at one another’s throats. Not because I think Hamas are fallen angels.