The Reason For Forum Mods and Censorship

[LoneGunman]

Some thoughts. Use 'em for discussion or not :)

One should perhaps understand that the biggest reason for there BEING censorship here on this Forum - is not because of 'concern over peoples feelings' (or possible legal issues)- but because it then justifies the existence of these 'Moderators' in the first place.

No censorship = No Need For Mods

which in turn means there's NO power structure into which those who think its 'important', will try to climb somehow.

Removing all censoring = removing the need and the lure of 'power' from those forumites who want it.

I would assume that those who have been made 'Mods' - feel somehow better or superior, to those who haven't. Indeed, some of the Mods may have actively pursued the idea of - for instance - 'behaving well enough' ('social engineering') for the site owner to graciously bestow the honour of being a Mod upon them.

The existence of Mods requires the existence of humans who believe that the extra powers and tools which they can use on Forum, is somehow 'important'.

Like anyone who's been in the Army can tell you, there's a whole unofficial structure in place for new arrivals - who are considered less important than the exact same people who've been there for longer. (The 'roerfs' and the 'oumanne' syndrome) Not because the longer serving people are better in any way - but because it suits the Powers Higher Up, to have the slaves squabbling and fighting and believing there's some sort of 'status' which can be attained.

Same here on Forum. I see very few instances where anyone says. 'Get rid of all Mods' - why? Because of the niggling lure and dangling carrot of a 'higher status' being possible at some point for them. All the more reason to consider removing this fake 'status'.

I personally would turn down the offer of being made a Moderator, because I'm not power-hungry, and have no desire to be given any extra authority - and also because I'm aware that I'll delude and fool myself into saying "Oh well, whatever I do, it's for the 'good of the Forum'.

Meantime, the truth deep down is: I've been manipulated into playing the same old self-deluding game that all slaves get offered.

"Here, have some power - no, don't tell yourself that it makes you feel stronger or higher status - just lie to yourself and pretend that what you're doing is to serve a Higher Purpose."
(In this case, the bogus illusion and lie that I'd imagine most current and potential Mods use is:"I'll be a mod and er enjoy the authority and status in order to protect the Forum, look after the feelings of individuals using it, and make sure there's nothing that could be legally acted upon - and thus damage the Forum.")

Yeah right.

So instead of the Forum being anything like a haven for free speech, and a yardstick to force its users to learn tolerance (or not) - it becomes a message board that reflects the fears, predjudices and status-seeking, of those slaves who've shown that they want/need some power.

(I forget who it was, but someone once said - the mere idea of someone saying they want to become a politician, or have some power, should immediately prevent them from ever being allowed to go into politics in the first place.)

Would it not be more useful and educational all round, for there to be no censorship and no Mods on this Forum - so that users are forced to learn what its like to have to deal with each other and cope (or not) with each others probably stupid idea's and beliefs?

Or - if that idea is too scary to those who currently like their Mod ahem 'status' and self-delusions for their reasons and powers - and in order to retain the focus of this broadband site:

*Remove ALL censorship and Mod powers from the Off Topic section, and add a simple clickthrough warning, that clicking into Off Topic means you agree you're an adult and you accept that you may encounter material that you find offensive and which the site accepts no responsibility for.*

I think this would be a very useful and educational step, for the Forum as a whole - for there to be a deliberate 'untouchable and uncensorable' section - to remove the whole parental babysitting approach that users are currently
operating under.

It's not democratic, it's not productive and it's creating a whole genre of users who think that whining like little babies whenever someone says something 'mean', and running to percieved 'authority figures' to help make the unpalatable words go away' is an adult form of behaviour - and as for the Mods - the current situation means they're allowed to believe that 'looking after other peoples feelings' and acting as pseudo parents to grown adult humans online, is somehow 'productive' on any level - and going to make users learn tolerance and other democratic values.

It's not - and it can't cause anything that's even close to democracy or tolerance, as long as there are parental figures on forum who can 'make all the naughty words/idea's/thoughts go away' - for anyone who complains.

What this means in reality is: the Forum itself becomes censored down to a nice Disneyfied worldview where the lowest common denominator is the norm. In other words, the Forum is reduced to content which has been deleted, censored and controlled down into a bland non-offensive form that is designed to be acceptable to a young child.
But for the most part - we're not children here.

So why tolerate structures which are clearly anti-democratic and designed for children's young tender minds?

Make the OFF TOPIC section 'Mod' and censorship free, so that we learn how to operate as adults, and not as whiney easily-frightened, easily-offended users who are being taught how to use their individual supposed 'sensitivities', to have material they don't like, censored.

This isn't adult, or mature or democratic, or productive to the Forum, or the country as a whole..

================================================

[ajak]

I have given this some thought, if the Forumite that starts the thread feels at some point that the thread has “gone to far” or that it serves no purpose any more, can he or she be given the option of “killing” the thread. In this way it will be up to the “Thread Starter” to be (so to speak in charge) of his/her thread. If at any point things get out of hand the mods will then send that individual a pm explaining why he /she must push the kill button. Does this sound stupid or what?

LG,the clicktru warning sounds a very good idea, we are all grownups here on this forum, like in a real life conversation, if you get tiered of what peeps are saying, you walk away, and on the forum, just stop posting.

[LoneGunman]

Thats why I suggested a 'mod and censor free zone' in Off Topic - so that the primary focus of this site doesnt degenerate into trolling and flaming - but that the Off Topic section, with a clickthrough warning, then becomes an area where people have to learn to cope with things they may not like.
Thus everyone gets to learn a little.

re the OP (original poster) having the power to kill threads, hmm. Might not be a good thing - as I'm guilty myself of freaking out, and going and deleting en masse my posts - which messes up the flow of the Forum. Again, handing that kind of power to individuals, I think, shouldn't happen. It allows the users themselves to perhaps censor material which comes later in a thread they started..

[neio]

Or better yet why dont the mods just limit the number of posts that can go into a thread. I visit some boards where the post limit on any thread is 250 posts.

[LoneGunman]

re thread post limits - surely if there's stuff going on, then it lasts as long as it lasts, and the thread'll die naturally (or not) of its own accord.
Thats the thing about putting structures in place to allow 'freedom' - you don't generally have to artificially constrain anything - as users and threads will contribute or walk away of their own accord. (Either because 'its boring', or because its 'too offensive'..either way, the users themselves decide naturally)
Again, I'm suggesting a 'No Mod No Censoring' Zone in Off Topic ONLY - thus keeping the main focus of this site, firmly on track..

[bwana]

LG,the clicktru warning sounds a very good idea, we are all grownups here on this forum, like in a real life conversation, if you get tiered of what peeps are saying, you walk away, and on the forum, just stop posting.No ajak - we are not all grownups here. There are large numbers of kids roaming around

I for one am against the idea of turning the off-topic section into a grade-A cluster-**** and would sooner see it disbanded.

EDIT - The SA bill of rights does not extend freedom of speech to include advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

[LoneGunman]

bwana v.8 - I hear what you're saying, but surely its not the business of the Forum, to be 'protecting kids' - and thus watering down content continually, in order to make sure there's nothing that 'might offend little kiddies'?

What kind of operating approach is that - when instead of freedom of speech - along with a clearly visible WARNING sign that has to be clicked through - you and I and all of us who ARE adults, have to operate as if there are a row of impressionable little children watching, who might get upset/warped at whatever we discuss?
We don't operate like that in the real world (unless there ARE kids around) so why carry this into the online world, and end up behaving as if there 'might' be children around.
Its not our business to worry about other parents who are not policing their children, and we shouldn't even be contemplating doing this..

It's the problem of parents to police their children effectively online, it's utterly NOT our business to assume the responsibility of 'watching what we say' at every turn, because of children who aren't being correctly policed by their parents..
Again, that's not democracy. And it reduces us to having to behave in utterly non-mature and non-adult ways, if you're suggesting that everything we do or say online, must be considered/censored and watched over - 'in case' of children being here.
That's taking on totally unnecessary responsibility. And again, how does this promote tolerance or democratic free speech, if we're censoring ourselves on the offchance we give some kiddies a glimpse of adults talking..
It's not our problem. And we shouldn't try to make it our problem.

[rpm]

Hi LoneGunman and others

An interesting discussion indeed.

I have obviously given this matter a lot of thought in the past, and must disagree with your argument regarding an open discussion board without any moderation etc. The idea of mods being somehow superior or power hungry is not accurate. What can however be said is that moderation has some ‘higher’ purpose…whether it is to protect the integrity of MyADSL or to further broadband in South Africa. Whatever the case might be, censorship is applied.

But from everything that I have read on this subject good moderation makes for a good forum. An open forum where everything goes is an interesting concept, but what to do if it becomes an international spam area for advertisers? And can one then allow people to post viruses on the forum as attachments or links to viruses under false headings or links? Should there be zero moderation? If so, are there any examples of successful boards where zero moderation is applied?

Regards,

RPM

[LoveDub]

bwana v.8 - I hear what you're saying, but surely its not the business of the Forum, to be 'protecting kids' - and thus watering down content continually, in order to make sure there's nothing that 'might offend little kiddies'?

Simple, have a disclaimer at the top of the forum, or on an entrance page which warns that the content is unmoderated and is not suitable for people under 18.

[LoneGunman]

Hi RPM,
good points you raise re links to virii..

I have to say that - okay, strike the whole power-hungry Mod stuff - which was just me thinking out loud and writing - and focus in instead on the 'off topic' as a censor/mod free zone..

Again, one can have Mods there, but they're only to prevent the spread of trojans, virii and spam - nothing else. No content censoring at all.
Also, I'm talking only about the 'Off Topic' section - unless an Off Topic ADULTS ONLY zone is made..?
- so I'm not arguing for a total free-for-all across the entire site, because the main thrust of this forum is obviously clearly defined, just for a tiny NO CENSOR/NO MOD zone where total free speech is allowed, and people can post there or not, as they choose..

Off the top of my head, a messy example of an almost Mod free forum in action- Its one of those 'conspiracy' type forums - but its very very big.. http://www.godlikeproductions.com/index.php

(it gets messy, and gets spammed, and theres major warfare at times, but the Mods generally remove the spam and attachement/avatar trolling as it happens, and leave everything else as is.)
Your thoughts?

[jjtoymachine]

i know there is a certain mod who i just hate!! :D

[LoneGunman]

RPM ?
All it takes - to create a very useful section, is an OFF TOPIC ADULT ZONE.

One 'warning' clickthrough disclaimer, absolving the site of any responsibility,

and instructions to Mods that they cannot censor any content, or touch any threads except for spam, and virii/trojan links - and to ignore all private messages from users complaining about posts in this section.

And an interesting process is under way - to force users to deal with whatever is said or discussed, all by themselves - and to participate or avoid as they choose.

[JBFRobisher]

What this means in reality is: the Forum itself becomes censored down to a nice Disneyfied worldview where the lowest common denominator is the norm. In other words, the Forum is reduced to content which has been deleted, censored and controlled down into a bland non-offensive form that is designed to be acceptable to a young child.
But for the most part - we're not children here.


I am not entirely in agreement with your "we are all being good because we aspire to mod-status" argument - the last thing I would want to be is a forum mod! But I do agree with the results you come up with. I think we are all being "good little forumites" because if you aren't, your posts get censored to hell. And bland inoffensive mush is exactly what we find ourselves with. The moment you think of lighting a match - let alone starting a nice little flame war - the posts are deleted and the thread locked. No rubust debate, no digging deeper than skin level, no criticism of the "favoured few". Just mush.

I do disagree about the "children" - there appear to be MANY juveniles on these boards, many of whom think they know everything too. Sad.

But I strongly support a big reduction in the censorship levels, which to my mind are currently pathetically high. And if a mod intends locking a "hot" thread he should post a message announcing his intention to do so, and allow 24 hours for any last debate. If the site won't allow such a reduction, then a free-for-all zone is a good compromise.

One wonders if it comes from good white South African Calvinist attitudes - do what you are told, behave yourself, do not rock the ox-wagon??

[rpm]

Hi LoneGunman

Thanks for the response…

I will wait for the other mods to give feedback on the issue and also see what members feel about this (democracy and all :D). There are obvious legal concerns and will wait for feedback from some legal eagles on the liability of the forum regarding hate speech etc.

I agree that it will be interesting to have such a section, but unless it ads value to MyADSL and our aims it should maybe be hosted under a different domain. Any takers?

(Have to go to work meeting soon, so will pick up on this again later)

Regards,

RPM

[MaD]

LG, this post is as lengthy as your articles normally are.. I wish I had the time and talent to churn out so much copy :)

As for the mods - I surely would never want to be a mod, they get endless amounts of flack. This is one of the main reasons why Hellkom has never had a forum.. politics amongs the forumites, and power struggles for want of a better description. Personally I have other things to do rather than discuss semantics all day. Life is short and I'm not going to spend it in a forum all day.. a large part of it maybe, but not all of it :D

[LoneGunman]

Like I said to RPM - disregard all my lengthy crap about the REASONS for Mods and all that stuff - it was just me 'thinking out loud' and writing while looking at it - the main thrust is perhaps the end section and subsequent ideas of a little 'free zone' - where flame wars, adult discussions, out and out warfare, insults and 'offensive' speech can exist - and Mods are told to ignore complaints about that section, and delete ONLY spam and dangerous virii type links.
I think, if one looks at the forum a year ago, and then now - there's a growing need for an area for folks who are loyal to this Forum, to let off steam and rant, rave and say whatever they want, and those who can't take it - dont go there, and no cross-referencing of links is allowed in the main moderated Forum.
Its a clearly adults only zone, and is treated as such.
This means topics and thought that in the main Forum, are deleted immediately, are left alone - be they racial, sexual, religious or just downright insulting..
That's freedom of speech..

And any juveniles or kids on the main forum, or their legal guardians or parents, have no claim at all in trying to hold this site responsible - given the clear ADULTS ONLY DISCLAIMER their kiddies have had to click through to find the FreeZone..

It'd be very interesting, purely from a theoretical point of view, to read individual Mod's ideas on the creating of an area where they have NO control.. This'll tell us something about their commitment to freedom of speech, versus possible desires to enforce their own individual predjudices on others, by continuing to want to censor :)

[neio]

IMO the issue is not the things we talk about but the personal attacks that follow when people start to get annoyed. If we can all abide by having a discussion without the personal attacks then I would be all for a no mods thread, however, not everybody has got the ability to argue without resorting to the lowest common denominator which is to attack another person.

[LoneGunman]

No, neio, again - you've bought into the fake idea that 'personal attacks' are BAD and 'SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED'.. that's buying into the whole growing 'lets let the mods look after my sensitive feelings' thoughts, that the censorship here has created.

I'm totally FOR 'personal attacks' on whatever someone fancies to use at me, (in a 'freezone') because thats freedom of speech in action.

Let someone be as disgusting or offensive or 'personal' as they want. Thats freedom of speech and _I_ have to tolerate it, and I shouldn't ever even WANT to run to some authority figure to say 'wah, the naughty poster is being rude about my mom' (or my skin colour, my religion or whatever)..

See my point?

By allowing personal and any other attacks, it forces each of us to tolerate, and deal in a mature way with the possibly immature on forum. It also means we can erupt, freakout and be just as 'personal' back - IF WE WANT TO.

And also it then shows us who is a d!ck in the freezone, yet pretending to be mature in the normal moderated forum..

A freezone area means giving up that growing unempowering reliance on SOMEONE ELSE looking after our feelings and taking care of 'bad' people who want to get personal.

We can take care of it ourselves, if we realise we're mature adults. And its totally wrong, in my view, to want to let someone else look after our feelings and protect us. Why? It's taking away our own ability to operate as mature adults.

[bwana]

I'm totally for 'personal attacks' on whatever someone fancies to use at me, thats freedom of speech in action. Well I'm not for waving the protection against the likes of hate speech afforded to me by our constitution. What other rights would you like to forgo?

Of course if we were mature adults it would be a non issue. There is a difference between debate and incitement.

[neio]

I have to say I disagree, you see, if this was unmoderated, for example, I would tell you to STFU because I disagree, that would just be plain silly and immature. Instead I respect your opinion but still disagree. :)

[LoneGunman]

re 'hate speech' - and being 'protected' - that's legislation of 'morality'.

So there's no difference, structurally speaking, in the racist legislation of Apartheid, which enforced one groups idea of Morality - and the current socially 'medicinal' legislation which seeks to 'protect' the poor immature passive defenseless little ethnic groups against name calling.

Arguing to keep legislation which blocks freedom of speech for all, and prevents the growth of tolerance, is not a right I want to have.

How can you seriously express what you feel honestly, if the person you're talking with, can at any moment, run to a Big Brother authority and 'tell on you' and threaten 'legal' action?

How can you and others who are different from you and I, expect to grow intellectually, if we all don't have the freedom to hate whoever the hell we want, and to express that hate?

I hear racial arguments all the time on US radio, and the 'N-word' gets thrown around quite happily and angrily and debate is allowed to flourish, without the people concerned being reduced to immature children who can use utterly misguided legislation to hide behind and never develop thick skins and tolerance - which is what is happening here.

Besides, this is cyberspace, not the real world. If you're seeking 'protection' from naughty words here online, what does that say about your ability to tolerate and allow radically different views from your own to exist, back in reality?

Its just freedom of speech I'm arguing for. Damn :)

Feel free to hate me, tell me how much of a pig my ethnic group is, how disgusting/evil/smelly my ethnic group or religion is. Fine. I'm an adult, its my job as a believer in democracy, to tolerate it - not get angry (unless I want to argue) and not hand over my personal responsibility to my own intellect, to some Big Brother who'll legally spank you for the nasty things you've said..

So tell me to STFU if you want. Its really no big deal. I'm an adult, so are you. Let's trust that concept, you know?
That's how people grow and learn to live with each other. By freely expressing their thoughts and ideas - regardless of whether those thoughts and idea's are repulsive, obscene, hurtful, evil, etc..
You have the basic right to HAVE your thoughts and to express them, and I have the RIGHT to the same, and to TOLERATE your views and thoughts.
Because we're grownups, radically different, and have to all live together.

You don't achieve a peaceful democratic society by making thoughts and idea's of one sort or another 'illegal'. That goes inherently against the basic principles of real democracy - regardless of how well-intentioned the framers of any 'protective' laws, may be.
All that does is take away your own G*d-given right to freely hate or love, express or write whatever you want, short of calling for any form of violence against someone else.
Its a fundamental that's worked for America for some time now.. but evidently SA has chosen to go down an anti-democratic path, while thinking its somehow right to 'protect' people against nasty words, as if they're children.

We're not kids, and we shouldn't abdicate or give up our personal right to self expression.

So feel free to insult my race, religion, mom or whatever - and I'll grin, and delightedly return the favour (if I want to) - that choice is up to us, not any State or Government. And the fact that that choice has been taken from us in reality here in SA, should tell you that we've lost an integral part of what democracy is all about.
Grownups accepting the views of angry people who don't agree with them, or hate them - and being willing to argue with each other or at least accept views and ideas that you or I may find repulsive. That's democracy. Massive diversity of opinion - not State Sponsored 'Approved Thoughts and Speech You Are Allowed To Say'.

So I give you back your democratic right to say whatever you want at me - because I trust that I'm an adult, and you're an adult. And we have to learn to co-exist with possibly radically different views. That's true democracy

And no State has the right to decide for you or for me, what you or I can think or say - at least, no honestly and genuinely 'democratic' State.
:)

[bwana]

Sorry - whats the fundamental[sic] that's worked for America?

[LoneGunman]

"freedom of expression."

You can buy "***** BUSH" T-shirts, buttons and numberplates in stores there.

Here a '***** MBEKI' or "***** THE ANC' t-shirt, button or numberplate, would get you jailed. (Or physically attacked)

You can wear a mask and are entitled to hide your face in public protests and marches.
Here this is illegal - and will get you jailed.

You can join a variety of ANTI GOVERNMENT organisations in the US (okay, they'll be flooded with Gov agents) but still, they exist.

Name just 3 ANTI GOVERNMENT organisations that are currently visible in SA?

You can join racial supremacist groups in the US, and print newspapers, leaflets and media - whether its a 'white' 'black' 'hispanic' supremacist group or any one of countless other groups - they're up and running, tolerated and carry on as usual - because its a democracy which allows freedom of speech and freedom of association, and freedom of ideas.

Name just 2 supremacist organisations that are tolerated and allowed to operate, spread their media and carry on as usual, in this 'democratic' south africa?

I could go on, but you get the concept - here there's been a swing towards Fascism, disguised as 'democracy' and crushing genuine free speech - and the hate laws have aided this delusion..

To the point where you're arguing for the continuation of the removal of your democratic rights, and seriously thinking its somehow 'helping' you or helping this country 'be Democratic'.

The ANC have seriously damaged democracy in South Africa, by passing laws to legislate 'nice thoughts' and 'moral behaviour' (ie: so called 'anti-racism laws'). Democracies NEED to allow the racists, the deviants, the 'different' to exist, flourish and express themselves.
That's how democracy and tolerance is learned.

Otherwise you end up where you are now. Arguing to let a State continue to control what thoughts and speech is 'right' and 'wrong' - and thinking this is 'democracy'.
It's not.

[ajak]

We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability."
* David Mamet

[bwana]

On the contrary LG - the Supreme Court has frequently ascertained that the first amendment does not offer full protection wrt defamation, broadcasted speech, obscenity, speech that might be harmful to children, child pornography, there's a long list.

Even the international declaration of human rights clearly states the "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

There are clear limits in place which a fleeting visit to the states might not have revealed.

[BTTB]

RPM,

I would need time to go through all that LG has said.
At the moment I do not have the time.

Will post something later.

BTTB

[LoneGunman]

re "First amendment does not offer full protection wrt defamation, broadcasted speech, obscenity, speech that might be harmful to children, child pornography."

Sure, so? In the US you can still call me a ****** if you want to, or chink, wop, dago, wetback, greaser, JAP, Yid etc etc or make jokes using these terms, and there's no real problem.

Ditto for groups who espouse a belief that their ethnic group is 'superior' in any way. From the Aryan Nation, into the seperatist Hispanic groups growing in the Southern States - they're all in existence, and shouting away, and its no problem.

As for obscenity, that's pretty much in the eye of the beholder - the current accepted definition by the supreme court, you could apply to every advert you ever saw on TV ''pornography is any act without artistic merit or redeeming social values'..

re 'speech that might be harmful to children' - duh. So what? There're adult radio shows, films and Media outlets, ditto internet forums for adults - the whole society isnt (as you seem to want to suggest) censoring itself for fear of a 10 year old wandering in. 'Adult' material (ie porn) is available everywhere - because its for ADULTS. Same applies to everything else thats catering to adults.

re defamation, yeah sure, thats a basic slander/libel issue - and is commonly part of everyones behaviour. However, if you post online that I ***** goats - in court, if I was dumb enough to try do a defamation case -it can be reasonably argued that no reasonable person could assume that I indeed am likely to ***** goats, and thus its not 'defamation'..

Point being, as I see it - you're arguing facism, and calling it democracy.
I'm arguing democracy - and you're trying to justify local clearly Fascist limitations as being somehow 'democratic' - when in fact genuine democracy allows for a lot more freedom than you seem comfortable with.

Yes there are clear limits in the US over 'freedom of speech' issues - but racist and other 'ist' and 'ism' thoughts and beliefs and organisations - are ALLOWED to exist.
Because its a Democracy.

You're trying to say that they don't exist there perhaps - or that 'well they exist but there ARE limits'.
Funny how our limits allow MUCH LESS than the US does. And they're the democracy.

What are we then?
What are you and your politics arguing for, then?

Somethings clearly wrong then, in your definition of democracy - as it is being used locally.

And you seem to suggest that locally the State here is 'right' in blocking the exact same organisations and lines of thought and speech, that exist freely in the US - and yet you still want to call this a 'democracy'.
And want to argue that the clearly limited and controlled form of local 'democracy' is somehow correct and right and 'actually quite democratic'..

It clearly isn't.

'does not compute'.. Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

:)

[Skeptik]

LoneGunman has been brave to raise such a topic for discussion here, considering the immature & often spiteful attitude displayed by some of the mods. I sometimes try and picture them as a spotty kid with one hand on the ban button and the other playing with his joystick. One only has to look at the euro & american based forums to see lengthy healthy unbiased adult debate - sadly lacking here.

[bwana]

In the states you are only afforded protection from governmental attempts to curtail freedom of speech. So if you offend me as an individual or private entity I am entitled to seek retribution.

It would seem you have badly misinterpreted the ideal of democracy. As Lincoln said - democracy is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people".

Democracy and freedom are not synonymous.

[nocilah]

excellent idea LG has brought up.

A couple of thoughts.
The idea of kids wandering through this type of 'open' forum shouldn't be the concern of MyAdsl but rather the kids parents.

Bringing up the idea of 'personal' attacks, 'hate' speech, and the forgoing of rights is total rubbish. You are still given the freedom to be involved in those posts or not. There is also the 'ignore' option to ignore posts made by fellow forumites. With these type of measures this part of the forum will be well guarded by choice and freedom which is the essence of our countries democracy.

I know lots of forums with a section dedicated purely to this.

The only concern that can be raised is bandwidth costs occured because of a forum with this kind of section.

face it offtopic is the busiest section on this forum.

[ajak]

In the states you are only afforded protection from governmental attempts to curtail freedom of speech. So if you offend me as an individual or private entity I am entitled to seek retribution.

It would seem you have badly misinterpreted the ideal of democracy. As Lincoln said - democracy is a government "of the people, by the people, and for the people".

Democracy and freedom are not synonymous.

"of some people, by some people, and for some people". :)

[Skeptik]

please explain how using more "bandwidth" could be a problem. Do you mean space?

[Luke7777]

My thoughts:
Leave OffTopic in its current form.
Create a separate Unmodded *discussion* forum which :
1. Does not feed new posts to the main page, or appear when you use the "NewPost" feature
2. Can only be accessed by members that *subscribed* to that forum, even if it's just to read
3. Carries a click-thru disclaimer

[LoneGunman]

bwana v.8
nope, YOU have sadly misunderstood what I am arguing for, and what democracy means down on street level - like here in this forum.

You've been saying in effect (and correct me if I'm misinterpreting you) 'thankfully the State here protects me via its hate speech laws from your or other nasty peoples hurtful views.'

I'm saying that this above reliance on fake anti-democratic 'hate speech' laws, for supposed 'protection' - has and is breeding a passive acceptance of Fascist principles -which you are calling 'democratic'.

Yes in the US if I slander or libel you, you can seek redress. But you CAN'T run whining to the courts and be assured of immediate State action just because I happened to call you (for example) 'an uppity ******' - or if you called me 'a stinking white pig who deserves to die'.

In the US, thats just 'your point of view'. Nothing else.
Is it offensive?
Sure.
But so what?
If it happens to freak you out that much, yeah, you can find a lawyer and try sue for 'emotional distress' etc etc - but the STATE itself, is not going to look after your or my sensitive easily-hurt little thin skin, and have laws which say what you or I can and cannot 'say' or 'express'.

The State in the US assumes that you and I can deal with a world where people can call each other offensive names, without needing to look after us to that degree - why? Because that degree of looking after - is UNDUE INTERFERENCE IN THE PRIVATE CITIZENS RIGHT TO FREE THOUGHT AND EXPRESSION.

So yeah, you can seek personal civil redress in the US, but there's a basic assumption of the personal right to hate whoever you want, and to express that hate, if you so desire, in whatever way you like - as being a fundamental part of freedom of speech.

Something the local State has removed - and thus has inherently infringed on your and my ability to yell '******' 'k*ffir' or 'white pig' back and forth at each other, til we're blue in the face and exhausted - which is part of our democratic right to do.

If you get offended by certain words. Gee, bummer. You better avoid the US then, where all these words legislated against, here, are pretty much allowed and are considered part of normal speech, culture, comedy, literature and expression.

Are they 'nice' words? Not really..

But that's not up to the State to set in stone, and babysit your poor little feelings. Or mine.

What kind of adult human are you if you can't deal with some arbitrary words, and want a State to look after your poor little ears and sensitive feelings?

Again - what kind of political system are you arguing for.

Because its not 'democracy'. Even though you may think it is.

You're arguing in favour of a political system that says legally "You as a citizen don't need to learn tolerance - because we the State are controlling what you and others might say, and we have legal mechanisms to stop any negative words from being said, which MIGHT offend or hurt you.'

This kind of bizarre 'handing over of your rights to free expression', is a symptom of being under a Fascist or Marxist regime. It's got nothing to do with individual freedom of speech in normal democratic societies.

And don't bring up the 'dignity' thing - again, the STATE itself isnt in charge of looking after your sensitive little ears - thats handled by an arb court action, if someone offends diddums by calling them something 'offensive'..
:)

[antowan]

Antowan's reply to LG. My text is in blue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some thoughts. Use 'em for discussion or not :)

One should perhaps understand that the biggest reason for there BEING censorship here on this Forum - is not because of 'concern over peoples feelings' (or possible legal issues)- but because it then justifies the existence of these 'Moderators' in the first place.

No censorship = No Need For Mods

which in turn means there's NO power structure into which those who think its 'important', will try to climb somehow.

Interesting idea LG, but not very accurate and baseless. We have seen the effects of having relaxed moderation on the forum. It translates into fewer visits. Simple. We have had a couple of people who continually attacked and stirred the forum for no other reason than to hurt people and the forum IMO. When we finally opted to ban them (after loooong concideration) the problems abated and the forum picked up as it used to. There is thus a statistical mechanism we can use to prove moderation (and sometimes banning), is good for the forum and its visitors.

Removing all censoring = removing the need and the lure of 'power' from those forumites who want it.

No moderator I know on the MyADSL forum asked to be one.

I would assume that those who have been made 'Mods' - feel somehow better or superior, to those who haven't. Indeed, some of the Mods may have actively pursued the idea of - for instance - 'behaving well enough' ('social engineering') for the site owner to graciously bestow the honour of being a Mod upon them.

Interesting idea. The only thing is, it would be a very lonesome and unsure road to travel, because you have to bring it up in order to be noticed then, wouldn't you? What if you go out of your way to be this good person that doesn't offend and is always fair and nobody ever asks you? Would it be a betrayal of your own self, or would it perhaps have done you some good anyway? That I leave for whoever is trying it to decide.

The existence of Mods requires the existence of humans who believe that the extra powers and tools which they can use on Forum, is somehow 'important'.

Having access to these tools are important when you are a moderator, but being a moderator, doesn't make you as a person more important than others. Do you think that being a moderator is like being Morgana in the tales of Arthur, where people need to believe in her in order for her to exist? Whether people believe I can delete a post or not is immaterial. I can. It doesn't make me important. It is a necessary thing on any good forum. People think an unmoderated forum can become huge and popular. The truth is actually the other way around. It has to be moderated to be successful. Especially in the technical sections where you don't want people posting anything other than that which the forum was created for.

Like anyone who's been in the Army can tell you, there's a whole unofficial structure in place for new arrivals - who are considered less important than the exact same people who've been there for longer. (The 'roerfs' and the 'oumanne' syndrome) Not because the longer serving people are better in any way - but because it suits the Powers Higher Up, to have the slaves squabbling and fighting and believing there's some sort of 'status' which can be attained.

I wasn't in the army, and would thus not be able to comment.

Same here on Forum. I see very few instances where anyone says. 'Get rid of all Mods' - why? Because of the niggling lure and dangling carrot of a 'higher status' being possible at some point for them. All the more reason to consider removing this fake 'status'.

You could call for mods to be removed. Till you are blue in the face and it won't help. Moderation is required. You can however give valid reasons why a specific mod needs to be removed and if need be it will be done.

I personally would turn down the offer of being made a Moderator, because I'm not power-hungry, and have no desire to be given any extra authority - and also because I'm aware that I'll delude and fool myself into saying "Oh well, whatever I do, it's for the 'good of the Forum'.

I personally never say whatever I do it is for the good of the forum. I actually do say the following "I TRY to do whatever I do in the best interest of the forum."

Meantime, the truth deep down is: I've been manipulated into playing the same old self-deluding game that all slaves get offered.

"Here, have some power - no, don't tell yourself that it makes you feel stronger or higher status - just lie to yourself and pretend that what you're doing is to serve a Higher Purpose."
(In this case, the bogus illusion and lie that I'd imagine most current and potential Mods use is:"I'll be a mod and er enjoy the authority and status in order to protect the Forum, look after the feelings of individuals using it, and make sure there's nothing that could be legally acted upon - and thus damage the Forum.")

Yeah right.

90% true. Right! :)

So instead of the Forum being anything like a haven for free speech, and a yardstick to force its users to learn tolerance (or not) - it becomes a message board that reflects the fears, predjudices and status-seeking, of those slaves who've shown that they want/need some power.

Not true. This would involve moulding of threads, which isn't possible when you are dealing with the amount of posts made every single day on this forum. If we tried it, the forum would not be popular at all.

[antowan]

Antowan's reply to LG. My text is in blue...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I forget who it was, but someone once said - the mere idea of someone saying they want to become a politician, or have some power, should immediately prevent them from ever being allowed to go into politics in the first place.)

Don't think it was me, but I agree. As I said, I don't know of a mod here who asked to become one. One mod actually wants some of his mod abilities restricted because he doesn't need it. I asked that his mod abilities stay as they are for that very reason. He won't use it if not needed.

Would it not be more useful and educational all round, for there to be no censorship and no Mods on this Forum - so that users are forced to learn what its like to have to deal with each other and cope (or not) with each others probably stupid idea's and beliefs?

The difference between this forum (with its moderators) and a country (with its politicians) is that if you don't like a moderated forum, you are free to start an unmoderated one. Not so easy to form your own country if you hate the politicians. Anybody is free to start an unmoderated forum.

Or - if that idea is too scary to those who currently like their Mod ahem 'status' and self-delusions for their reasons and powers - and in order to retain the focus of this broadband site:

*Remove ALL censorship and Mod powers from the Off Topic section, and add a simple clickthrough warning, that clicking into Off Topic means you agree you're an adult and you accept that you may encounter material that you find offensive and which the site accepts no responsibility for.*

That decision is RPM's to take. I am for a section in Off Topic that is unmoderated. But not the whole off topic section.

I think this would be a very useful and educational step, for the Forum as a whole - for there to be a deliberate 'untouchable and uncensorable' section - to remove the whole parental babysitting approach that users are currently
operating under.

It's not democratic, it's not productive and it's creating a whole genre of users who think that whining like little babies whenever someone says something 'mean', and running to percieved 'authority figures' to help make the unpalatable words go away' is an adult form of behaviour - and as for the Mods - the current situation means they're allowed to believe that 'looking after other peoples feelings' and acting as pseudo parents to grown adult humans online, is somehow 'productive' on any level - and going to make users learn tolerance and other democratic values.

I refer you to my first paragraph as to the proven vallue that moderation has.

It's not - and it can't cause anything that's even close to democracy or tolerance, as long as there are parental figures on forum who can 'make all the naughty words/idea's/thoughts go away' - for anyone who complains.

What this means in reality is: the Forum itself becomes censored down to a nice Disneyfied worldview where the lowest common denominator is the norm. In other words, the Forum is reduced to content which has been deleted, censored and controlled down into a bland non-offensive form that is designed to be acceptable to a young child.
But for the most part - we're not children here.

Adult doesn't mean, rude LG. There are someptimes content posted that even adults find offensive.

So why tolerate structures which are clearly anti-democratic and designed for children's young tender minds?

Overly dramatic LG.

Make the OFF TOPIC section 'Mod' and censorship free, so that we learn how to operate as adults, and not as whiney easily-frightened, easily-offended users who are being taught how to use their individual supposed 'sensitivities', to have material they don't like, censored.

As I said, I am for a section in OT that is not moderated. Not the whole OT section. That would be unkind to some adults. :)

This isn't adult, or mature or democratic, or productive to the Forum, or the country as a whole..

[COLOR="Blue"]A little bit melodramatic there LG. I love the philosophy behind what you are saying, but theory is one thing. Practice is a totally different kettle of fish.

[/QUOTE]

[nocilah]

please explain how using more "bandwidth" could be a problem. Do you mean space?

bandwidth as in the amount of bandwidth this forum generates over a month which myadsl have to pay the isp for.

its usually in the 100's of Gigs. If you follow announcements RPM usually puts the stats down every month.

A highly popular area would generate execesive bandwidth and in turn would cost more for hosting.

But we could always donate :)

[BTTB]

My thoughts:
Leave OffTopic in its current form.
Create a separate Unmodded *discussion* forum which :
1. Does not feed new posts to the main page, or appear when you use the "NewPost" feature
2. Can only be accessed by members that *subscribed* to that forum, even if it's just to read
3. Carries a click-thru disclaimer
I presented this suggestion to RPM and the other Mods last year.
Seems it is not possible with this forum software?

[Luke7777]

I presented this suggestion to RPM and the other Mods last year.
Seems it is not possible with this forum software?OK, so a forum can't be excluded, which is a pity, since you do *not* want unmodded stuff to feed back as new posts, exposing it to the general public. If that's an issue with the software, the whole unmodded forum idea becomes null and void imo

[MaD]

Why doesnt one of the moaners who wants a no-holds barred section just do us all a favour - and start their OWN forum so that WE can go THERE and go mad, instead of BOGGING DOWN a BROADBAND SITE?

[LoneGunman]

Antowan, thanks for taking the time to consider some of my rambling thoughts. Very kind of you :)

As I've said twice since that post - maybe disregard the general motivation-of Mods rambling - and consider the idea of:

a simple 'adults only-and Mods-hands-off' zone in the Offtopic section - with Mods just removing spam & trojan stuff, and ignoring any/all complaints - and deleting any links in main forum to this unmoderated-content zone, which then keeps it as a separate entity..

Might be fun. Call it 'Outside' perhaps.
(So whenever things get heated in regular forum, people can just be told to 'take it Outside' :P

(re 'bogging down a broadband site' - ahem - what part of 'an entrance in the OFF TOPIC section' didnt they notice?
Let's say that again - the 'OFF TOPIC' section :P

Adult zone anyone? Our own private off topic fight club, where there're no rules, no content censorship (apart from the standard forum software word-snipping that I guess is part of the basic software) - and no running to Mods regardless of who says what..

It might make for fascinating watching/participating..

and I promise no more lengthy crap about 'democracy and yadda yadda yadda :)

[neio]

This brings to mind the question as to why this site is so successfull, we are here with a common goal, lower telecoms costs, but that's not our only goal, we have diff opinions about diff things as well. So if there were a need for totally unsensored content who would visit it after they received the first flame? LG, are you willing to start a forum and wait for people to join and be flamed for an idea or opinion that other members may not agree with? I would suggest that the forum would die a quick death in the number of visitors who come. Of course you would have the few odd members who like to argue and maybe like to make personal attacks but they would be few and far inbetween.

[bwana]

Personally - I agree with MAD - why should rpm bear the burden and responsibility of such a section? Start your own forum. You can make a unilateral decision to be democratic. :rolleyes:

Still - I'll acquiesce to an unmoderated section provided we don't hide behind nicknames. Debate means nothing if you're not willing to have the courage of your convictions.

[LoneGunman]

neio agreed - we're all here for a common purpose.. but then we're all here for 'time out' on the Off Topic section, so we're clearly and statistically not all here purely for broadband-related issues. The existence and popularity of the 'off topic' section proves this.

So an unmodded section is simply a further extension (and 'choice') for those already spending time in the 'off topic' ie- non-broadband section. No need to even suggest 'starting an entire new forum, just because its 'unmoderated'.

Don't be scared of being attacked or of not having protection of some kind.

As regards an 'unmoderated section' only being acceptable 'if we dont hide behind nicknames.' and 'Debate means nothing if you're not willing to have the courage of your convictions.' Again, it sounds like absolute fear and insecurity and lack of comfort with normal free speech talking - as well as the weird 'well, we can have an unmoderated section provided everyone tells everyone their real names.'

Huh??? Excuse me? That's got nothing to do with anything - except perhaps the fear of being in an 'unprotected enviroment' - which already proves my point about the passivity that being over-protected, breeds in users.

Also, who says an unmodded section has to be 'debate'? Says who? Why even try nervously to make it conform to your ideas? It can be out and out argument, warfare or insults, as people choose.
Dont try and define what constitutes 'acceptable speech' behaviour before it even happens. Its not up to you or me to say 'well, its all about debate and therefore yadda yadda have courage of convictions etc etc' What convictions? What debate? Who cares? Why fearfully be trying to define what it 'is'?

It just smacks again of the fear of having to deal with someone being rude at you, when you're not used to this as a norm - or possible unpredictable behaviour from others online.

Whatever happens, happens, in an unmodded section. You know?
Don't be scared :P

"Sticks and stones may break my bones - but words will never hurt me."

[bwana]

And the problem with you going off and creating your own forum? Hosting is cheap and forum software is free - or do you doubt its sustainability?

Dont be scared.

[LoneGunman]

Why should I move away from this forum, which I enjoy - when what I'm suggesting is a logical optional extension to the Already In Existence 'Unconnected to Broadband Issues "Off Topic" section' right here - and it's an optional extension which users might enjoy.

Hmm?

You want things to stay exactly the same, hm? Will you cope if they don't? :)

Odd that you're now suggesting that - because of a possible 'scary' unmodded section - the person suggesting it should leave this forum.

You don't appear very open to new idea's, extra choice for existing forum-users, or alternative ways of doing things - if that's your best suggestion..

[bwana]

What I want is for the lowering of broadband costs - hence my arrival at this particular forum (the url gives it away - www.mybroadband.co.za - hmmm). That the off-topic section provides some entertaining brain-candy is one thing but I dont see a free-for-all-flame-section as a logical extension.

Go on - dont be afraid. Be creative.

[neio]

Well, that depends on what value RPM places on his website, does he want it to be know as a place where anarchy reigns or does he want it to be know as a place where people can have conversations about things without it degrading into flaming wars and personal attacks.
So it's RPM's call, personally the off topic/anarchy section will be be avoided by myself.

[LoneGunman]

Firstly, in a forum with hundreds of pages of threads, its absurd to try and make it seem like an unmodded section would make MyAdsl seem like "a place where anarchy reigns"

Next. Gee, well just avoid a section if you don't want to go there. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

Next, as regards not seeing a free-for-all section in an offtopic section as a logical extension. Fine. Thats your point of view.

Its also a little odd. That's like saying. "Well I have 10 channels available to me on Multichoice, I dont see the need for another 2000. I'm quite happy with the channels I have."

That's just YOU. Others would perhaps disagree.

Good grief, what IS this? The Fearful Granny Club?

:)

[neio]

Firstly, in a forum with hundreds of pages of threads, its absurd to try and make it seem like an unmodded section would be "a place where anarchy reigns"

Next. Gee, well just avoid a section if you don't want to go there. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

Next, as regards not seeing a free-for-all section in an offtopic section as a logical extension. Fine. Thats your point of view.

Its also a little odd. That's like saying. "Well I have 10 channels available to me on Multichoice, I dont see the need for another 2000. I'm quite happy with the channels I have."

That's just YOU. Others would perhaps disagree.

:)

You did not adress the fact that it's RPM's website and what value he puts on it's name.;)

[LoneGunman]

re "You did not adress the fact that it's RPM's website and what value he puts on it's name"

No, YOU are making the assumption that a free-for-all section amidst a much larger website, will somehow alter the 'name' or 'reputation' of MyAdsl.

RPM isn't stupid - he's not likely to take your position that 1% or so of pages within a larger site, will do anything whatsoever to alter or ruin or negatively affect the overall view from outside of his site.

You seem to attach more importance and concern over RPM's reputation, and how you think the site will be percieved, than you do to the simple positive option of 'space' being made available for those who want something a little extra with their MyAdsl. If you don't like it, then don't go there - don't try and make it seem that this is connected to someone elses perception of their own website.

Unless you're someones parent, worried on their behalf. I think RPM is very capable of making his own decisions based on what he wants for this site and all its users. Not just the ones who're having sleepless nights over what's good for him to do.
:)

[MaD]

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/myadsl/community.php

[LoneGunman]

Hey everybody, look at this Section I've just discovered on MyAdsl - it seems to have NOTHING to do with broadband - and - good grief!! Its called the (gasp!)
OFF TOPIC SECTION:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=87

Someone better delete it, according to the previous link, as it clearly shouldn't be here :P

:)

[bwana]

RPM isn't stupid - he's not likely to take your position that 1% or so of pages within a larger site, will do anything whatsoever to alter or ruin or negatively affect the overall view from outside of his site.

What can however be said is that moderation has some ‘higher’ purpose…whether it is to protect the integrity of MyADSL or to further broadband in South Africa. Whatever the case might be, censorship is applied.Hmm - yeah - think that topic's been covered.

[neio]

Hmm - yeah - think that topic's been covered.

Lol:D

[LoneGunman]

Well that cut n paste from RPM has certainly..
hmm.. I'm not sure what exactly, but as long as it felt good to you, hey enjoy..

RPM will do what he feels is pleasing and right, regardless of the grannies who want no change, and the slightly more liberal users who want a teensy weensie bit of extra choice available to all..
:)

[bwana]

Well that cut n paste from RPM has certainly..
hmm.. I'm not sure what exactly, but as long as it felt good to you, hey enjoy..

RPM will do what he feels is pleasing and right, regardless of the grannies who want no change, and the slightly more liberal users who want a teensy weensie bit of extra choice available to all..
:)Well then I'm sure your new site will be a smash hit. Have you decided on a name yet? Something catchy I hope.

[AntiThesis]

Not a whole lot for me to say except that I think I'd be interested in finding out how something like that would turn out... perhaps not on this forum though... *ponders*

[LoneGunman]

IF YOU'VE JUST JOINED THIS THREAD, HERE'S WHAT'S HAPPENED SOFAR!

I suggested an unmodded little section for flaming and warfare.
-Bwana argued that it was good that the law looks after your rights to not be insulted.
-I explained the difference between free speech, and local ideas.

Bwana then argued that the US is the same as here.
-I demonstrated that it wasn't.

Neio suggested that no one would stick around after the first insult at them,and gee, why don't I start my own forum?

Bwana then shifted position and said an unmodded forum was fine if there was no anonymity, and tried to link it to people having the courage of their convictions' (whatever that means.)
-I explained that this idea was irrelevant to the simple process of free speech that did whatever it did.

Bwana then again suggested I leave this forum and start my own.
-I explained (patiently) that we're already in an offtopic section, and that I like being here, and that having an extra choice option would be pleasant for forumites.

Bwana then avoided the issues and stated that he failed to see an unmodded section as a 'logical extension' to the offtopic section.
-I then explained that this was like saying "I have 10 channels of TV - therefore I don't need any more channels." - and that this wasn't Bwana's decision to make on behalf of all users.

Bwana then cut n pastes an earlier RPM comment-
-I point out that this has no bearing, and that RPM will decide what he decides.

Bwana then plays troll, and asks if I've found a name for my new site.

From the overall systematic pattern - it's rather clear that Bwana v.8 is at best a conservative and at worst a fairly trollish fan of using a weird amount of energy to ensure nothing changes to rock their world. Or maybe they just really really want to argue. Awww.

We all hope Bwana's knitting at the old age home is going well :)

This update by the way, is brought to you by Omo.

Let's see what happens next. What angle will Bwana take to keep on arguing? Will he raise the race card? Worry about RPM's reputation? Or come up with yet another oddly fearful reason to not contemplate any changes whatsoever to MyAdsl in any way?

Stay tuned folks!

[MaD]

/me gets the popcorn, some slush puppy and jelly babies

[TonyA]

Why don't we take an opinion poll for an unmoderated section of off topic?

[LoneGunman]

LOL at MaD :)

EDIT: re TonyA's suggestion - that sounds like a good, simple and easy-to-ascertain plan to find out what forumites might like, rather than all of this..
Who's the person in charge of the opinion poll thing? Does one need to submit forms in triplicate? :)

[bwana]

I stand by what I said.

As I see it rpm addressed the issue adequately and so I apologize for getting sucked in - silly bwana.

If a vote will appease then I'm all for it.

[craigsa]

IMO the issue is not the things we talk about but the personal attacks that follow when people start to get annoyed. If we can all abide by having a discussion without the personal attacks then I would be all for a no mods thread, however, not everybody has got the ability to argue without resorting to the lowest common denominator which is to attack another person.
I agree with you once again.

[rpm]

Hi folks

Just awaiting legal feedback on this issue. No need to vote on it if we will be held legally liable for whatever goes on in the forum. As you know we respect (abide by :D) the voice of the members, but we must make certain that MyADSL is on the right side of the law.

LoneGunman: Unfortunately we only accept hand written letters (triplicate as you have so rightly pointed out). Please mail MyADSL's Department of Bureaucracy for our snail mail address :D

Regards,

RPM

[craigsa]

Well i think us children here need to be moderated.

[TonyA]

Lets Vote. Mods please arrange a poll

[bb_matt]

Sped read through this ...]

Jump to the *stars**** below to skip all this rambling by me to get to my 2 pence...

One thing is clear, we are still getting the people who harp on about "but this forum is only for broadband, blah blah blah"

Yawn, give it a rest already and observe how things work in the world, all business and no pleasure made Jack a dull boy (until he met Jill of course and the rest is history)

I've always felt that Offtopic should be unmoderated in terms of opinion, no matter what is written, but unmoderated is scary to so many as is freedom of speech, which does actually include hate speech.

Where do you draw the line ?

It's either all or none at all.

I have no qualms over people expressing whatever opinion they may have and if they insult me, I respond or ignore - the method of my response determines my maturity level.

I've had a few good battles on this forum and have thouroughly enjoyed every minute of them, because it makes me think and allows me to try to see points of view from different angles.

It's been a while since I visited here, but I have noticed a certain heavy handed approach in the "off topic" section over the months which makes me wonder whether a moderators morals aren't clouding issues which need to be worked through.

We need talk, we need to express and if it hurts someones feelings, heck, grow up. If you get offended so easily, there's obviously personal issues you have that you need to resolve, as at the end of the day, you can take or leave this place.

Disconnect, Log off, go somewhere else - it's your freedom of choice.

I hate nothing more than self serving pricks who warble on about "off topic" being detrimental to the purpose of a broadband forum ad nauseum - don't bloody well visit the section if you don't like what you see.

It's akin to a prude getting a porno mag to see how bad it is and then making a song and dance about what they saw between the covers.

But there IS another angle to this and it's a difficult one, you have to keep an eye out for "freedom for freedoms sake" - something that isn't pushing the boundaries, but rather abusing them.

Freedom of speech always comes with the obvious factor that you always have to fight to defend it, which is where moderation enters the scene and so ....

(if this has already been mentioned, excuse me)


*************

... what is really required is moderation Slashdot style, where everyone gets to moderate, but without the moderator points or karma bull*****.

You set the level you wish to view the forum on and also get to participate to have your vote on what you think should be moderated up or down.

Then allow free speech to reign supreme, either view everything unfiltered, or set it to "super prude"

[TonyA]

Difficult cocept this. I agree, if you don't like it don't read it, watch it whatever! But look at real life, adverts are moderated because some minority group complains, movies have restrictions placed upon them, whatever we do some one else is going to stamp his moral values on us!

[neio]

Difficult cocept this. I agree, if you don't like it don't read it, watch it whatever! But look at real life, adverts are moderated because some minority group complains, movies have restrictions placed upon them, whatever we do some one else is going to stamp his moral values on us!

{IMO} Do you understand the argument against a free for all flame war thread? Based on experience it will go from attacking the argument into personal attacks. I have no problem with personal attacks, BUT, the majority of people who visit this site WILL be put off by it, this does not promote better broadband for SA consumers, i.e. you and I. These people will tell their friends and co workers not to visit www.myadsl.co.za. This will be a bad thing. I hope that everyone understands that this is a distinct possibility of happening if there is a free for all unmoderated thread.
Now ask urself, how and why you came to be here, Look I'm not trying to play holier than thou or anything, I also enjoy the off-topic threads and most of my post's are within it. This is just my opinion.

[bb_matt]

{IMO} Do you understand the argument against a free for all flame war thread? Based on experience it will go from attacking the argument into personal attacks. I have no problem with personal attacks, BUT, the majority of people who visit this site WILL be put off by it, this does not promote better broadband for SA consumers, i.e. you and I. These people will tell their friends and co workers not to visit www.myadsl.co.za. This will be a bad thing. I hope that everyone understands that this is a distinct possibility of happening if there is a free for all unmoderated thread.
Now ask urself, how and why you came to be here, Look I'm not trying to play holier than thou or anything, I also enjoy the off-topic threads and most of my post's are within it. This is just my opinion.

I guess I have to say this again and again and again and again...

Just because YOU are aware of Offtopic, it doesn't mean that as an outsider, this is what you see.

Once again I'll say it, visit the HOME PAGE of MyADSL and see what OTHERS would see before entering.

Please put yourself into the shoes of someone else without making this rash judgement.

Thanks.

[dominic]

I guess I have to say this again and again and again and again...

Just because YOU are aware of Offtopic, it doesn't mean that as an outsider, this is what you see.

Once again I'll say it, visit the HOME PAGE of MyADSL and see what OTHERS would see before entering.

Please put yourself into the shoes of someone else without making this rash judgement.

Thanks.nah...& i have fond remembrance of us previously disagreeing on this one...so pls consider this a non-rash pov

we agree that the site and forum have purposewhich they are trying to achieve...the dire telecomms situation in sa has meant this is a gathering place for a large number of folk from a fairly homogenous section of SA society and hence offtopic cooks. But there is plenty of experience from both a member and visitor experience of political viewpoints and flaming causing people to leave or avoid the site. This detracts from the primary objective we are all trying to achieve and is therefore counterproductive.

i also agree with neio in terms of personal squabbles in offtopic spill over into the main section and colour peoples responses to each other. this is also divisive and counter-productive.

this is not a freedom of speech issue...not not not...this is the internet where
peeps are free to express themselves in any number of places. why should this site in particular have an unmoderated offtopic section? i am not sure that i have seen a half-convincing argument as yet....

[pookfuzz]

I do not think an un-moderated forum will work, looking back we can see there have already been many threads on contentious issues get turned into name calling squabbles. While this may have some entertainment value for some people it is not really all that useful. For those with thinner skins it could be sufficiently upsetting that they decide to disassociate from the forum an never return.

I have no problem with people sitting and insulting each other, but it is naive to think that is the extent of things. As neio pointed out, there are some threads which do nothing but stir up emotions, these emotions will overflow into other areas of the forum, I think the more serious sections will suffer due to bias, grudges and resentment generated in off topic areas.

As much as the idea of an un-moderated forum is appealing I also know that this can only work when members become their own moderators. Based on some threads it is fairly evident that many members cannot restrain themselves.

Simply putting up disclaimers is hardly any defense, people will still read the posts, they will still get upset. As long as the stuff is on MyADSL, it will always be associated with the forum.

Additionally, despite the fact that the forum could become completely un-moderated, I see no actual justification for it. Perhaps if LG could shed some light on how the forum would be improved in a tangible way, what benefits would be derived and how focus could be maintained on telecommunications? How exactly will the agenda of MyADSL be furthered? These are the things that could sway my standpoint rather than simply punting a concept which preys on the utopian in me.

Lastly, what exactly prompted all of this? How have the moderators acted in a way which hurts the forum? Have peoples freedom to express themselves really be curtailed or are we confusing freedom with the ability to create what is essentially written violence?

[nocilah]

shed some light on how the forum would be improved in a tangible way, what benefits would be derived and how focus could be maintained on telecommunications? How exactly will the agenda of MyADSL be furthered? These are the things that could sway my standpoint rather than simply punting a concept which preys on the utopian in me.

i would say 98% of all threads in the off-topic section of MyAdsl futher the agenda of Myadsl as much as a fly sitting on a peace of day old cheese.

if threads like: The Story Thread, Word Association Game ,I am the Thread Killer, Girl doesn't like you and Frustration benefit MyAdsl, with a focus being maintained on telecommunications, then please explain how an addition to the off topic thread as LG has described would be any different besides it being more debate-centric with perhaps some controversial views.

Remember: utopian has always been considered an impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.

although i understand your unwillingness to favour the proposed forum concept is their any harm done to your utopian dream if you choose not to involve yourself?

However if you choose to involve yourself with the proposed forum concept i dont see how your failure to fufill your utopian dream has any more relevance to the majority of posts currently on off-topic, unless you are suggesting off topic be removed alltogether, which i believe is a completly different debate and decision to the one mentioned.

[bb_matt]

There's two sides here.

The one side has a specific agenda for the forum and misses the entire point of what discussion is about.

The other side is happy for freedom of expression.

Hopefully that latter will hold out and win.

Wherever people gather to talk about specific topics, side topics always exist. It is like this in any club, church, organisation, political party - you name it.

While the focus remains on a specific goal, there should ALWAYS be a place to blow off some steam and discuss anything that comes to mind, it's the sign of a healthy group.

The moment someone tries to over focus, to steer too tightly, the momentum gets lost.

Yes Dominic, we have been over this and I'm still clear in my mind that Offtopic won't get noticed by new visitors and is easily ignored.

Let me shout,

THIS IS THE ENTRANCE TO MYADSL :-

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?

Get the picture ?
I really hope so, because it couldn't be any clearer to me.

Like DUH.

[pookfuzz]

if threads like: The Story Thread, Word Association Game ,I am the Thread Killer, Girl doesn't like you and Frustration benefit MyAdsl, with a focus being maintained on telecommunications, then please explain how an addition to the off topic thread as LG has described would be any different besides it being more debate-centric with perhaps some controversial views.

I never said I agree with the off topic section to start with, however this section is not without merit. Off topic allows the forum to keep people interested when telecoms topics are going through periods of minimal activity.

Lets not delude ourselves, LG is not asking for anything that will enhance debate, he is asking for impunity when he chooses to victimize, taunt and attack people from the comfort of his keyboard. I am not implying this is what he plans to do, simply that this is what he is asking for.


Remember: utopian has always been considered an impractical, idealistic scheme for social and political reform.

Yes. I consider the idea of an un-moderated forum to be utopian - Impractical.



although i understand your unwillingness to favour the proposed forum concept is their any harm done to your utopian dream if you choose not to involve yourself?

Since it is almost certain vitriolic feelings will overflow into other forum areas do you really think there will be any thread or section that will offer a safe haven where I can post without being forced to get involved?



However if you choose to involve yourself with the proposed forum concept i dont see how your failure to fufill your utopian dream has any more relevance to the majority of posts currently on off-topic, unless you are suggesting off topic be removed alltogether, which i believe is a completly different debate and decision to the one mentioned.

I don't expect to live in utopia, even though I might wish to, I am realistic enough to know that I don't always get my way or get to do what I want. Actions have consequences, if I don't like the consequences I should not do the actions that cause them. An un-moderated forum allows action without consequences, if this really was a good model I am sure it would have been implemented in more traditional social settings.

This forum has grown beyond its original scope; we have all sorts of sections which are not necessarily closely aligned with telecommunication topics. This is not a reason to embrace anarchy.



Wherever people gather to talk about specific topics, side topics always exist. It is like this in any club, church, organisation, political party - you name it.

While the focus remains on a specific goal, there should ALWAYS be a place to blow off some steam and discuss anything that comes to mind, it's the sign of a healthy group.

All groups have rules which define social interaction; they set the boundaries on what is acceptable and what is not for that specific group. Discussing anything that comes to mind is not an option, if you fail to observe the rules you will very quickly find yourself ousted from the group. MyAdsl is very large group, with many varied ideas and viewpoints, allowing such a large group to define their own rules would result in many smaller groups each with different boundaries. Moderators are the mechanism that allows such a large group to attain a common set of boundaries.

At the moment I feel the potential negative effects overshadow any potential positive ones. All I ask is that people think about what it is they are really asking for here. Why risk turning this forum into a possible battlefield?

[neio]

An yet the Question remains, What is best for www.myadsl.co.za ?

[JBFRobisher]

How have the moderators acted in a way which hurts the forum? Have peoples freedom to express themselves really be curtailed or are we confusing freedom with the ability to create what is essentially written violence?

Pookfuzz's ever-eloquent posts have made me change my mind about having an unmoderated free-for-all zone, and I am now against it.

But, to respond to the quote above, I would say that currently the censorship levels are too high, and that hurts the forum, because when the mods do a slash-and-burn on a thread, they also throw the baby out with the bathwater, to mix metaphors. It is also very discouraging to have ones thoughts and arguments disappear, and I am sure this is why some members become passive or leave.

So, keep the mods, but blunt their knives!

[neio]

As neio pointed out, there are some threads which do nothing but stir up emotions, these emotions will overflow into other areas of the forum, I think the more serious sections will suffer due to bias, grudges and resentment generated in off topic areas.

This is not really what I intended to mean, we are all emotional beings, without our emotions we will be but naught, Threads that stir up emotions are good, it's just the degeneration of these threads into personal attacks that I have a problem with, I challenge everybody to attack the argument and not the person who is making the argument. (no, not you Person (http://myadsl.co.za/vb/member.php?u=11720))

[bwana]

Let me shout,

THIS IS THE ENTRANCE TO MYADSL :-

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?

Get the picture ?
I really hope so, because it couldn't be any clearer to me.

Like DUH.I'm really not quite sure what your point is here when as things stand all threads, including off topic, show up on the front page under latest forum topics. Potential thread titles like "Youre a freekin w@nker" will hardly go unnoticed.

NB - I did say as things stand. I dont know if specific threads can be excluded by the software.

[dominic]

There's two sides here.

The one side has a specific agenda for the forum and misses the entire point of what discussion is about.

The other side is happy for freedom of expression.

Hopefully that latter will hold out and win.

Wherever people gather to talk about specific topics, side topics always exist. It is like this in any club, church, organisation, political party - you name it.

While the focus remains on a specific goal, there should ALWAYS be a place to blow off some steam and discuss anything that comes to mind, it's the sign of a healthy group.

The moment someone tries to over focus, to steer too tightly, the momentum gets lost.

Yes Dominic, we have been over this and I'm still clear in my mind that Offtopic won't get noticed by new visitors and is easily ignored.

Let me shout,

THIS IS THE ENTRANCE TO MYADSL :-

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/nephp/?

Get the picture ?
I really hope so, because it couldn't be any clearer to me.

Like DUH.
but then it seems that you are a stubborn ass that refuses to see it my way :) so as before we shall just agree to disagree and i will continue to look at my picture while you gaze at yours

let me also shout then - THIS IS NOT A FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ISSUE...its all very appealing to attire yourself in the righteous garb of the Promoter of the Freedoms but this forum DOES IN FACT HAVE A SPECIFIC AGENDA

fom the forum's experience with flaming, political spew etc over the last 6 months the facts speak for themselves

peace etc
enough with the shouting

[Luke7777]

I'm really not quite sure what your point is here when as things stand all threads, including off topic, show up on the front page under latest forum topics. Potential thread titles like "Youre a freekin w@nker" will hardly go unnoticed.

NB - I did say as things stand. I dont know if specific threads can be excluded by the software.Note BTTB's response (http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=434797&postcount=38) to my post.

[bwana]

Note BTTB's response (http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=434797&postcount=38) to my post.Thanks for the clarification - threads do therefore form an integral part of the public face of MyBroadband.

[Luke7777]

Thanks for the clarification - threads do therefore form an integral part of the public face of MyBroadband.Unfortunately so :)

[MaD]

This whole 'freedom of speech i wanna say what i wanna say without getting into twouble' thread seems to take place every 2 months or so anyways.

So let's all just do this every two months and then when the thread dies down it gets deleted..

[BTTB]

Note BTTB's response (http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=434797&postcount=38) to my post.
IMHO the single biggest reason why MyADSL cannot host this sort of forum.

Perhaps it may be pertinent to ask, what bandwidth does the Off Topic Section consume and the cost thereof? I have heard that it consumes the most bandwidth on the forum.
As MyADSL is hosted locally and the cost thereof is paid for with advertising, will the increase in traffic warrant the extra costs that will surely be added to our hosting bill? Will this bill be sustainable is my question.

[bb_matt]

On the other hand, BTTB, Offtopic is the most popular section of the forum. If removed, then the Off Topic posts would stray into the other areas, increasing the noise to signal ratio of topics relevant to broadband.

Off Topic is a place to blow off some steam, we can't always talk about broadband. This place has become a community of users who know each others online identities, there's friends and foes here alike.

You can't stop people from posting Off Topic, well, you can and if you did, this place would lose a lot of its appeal as a community.

There aren't that many forums as popular as this where people can talk about their fears, successes, beliefs, crazy stories or just talk crud.

Back to the subject, An Offtopic branch of MyADSL that works in a similar manner to Slashdot ?

Hmmm ?

[bwana]

I dont have vBulletin installed anywhere but will either of these help?

http://www.vbadvanced.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1252
http://www.vbadvanced.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2023

[BTTB]

Hi bb_matt.

Don't get me wrong.
I enjoy the Off Topic Section.:)
Without one where could we put anything that is Off Topic?

[Luke7777]

I dont have vBulletin installed anywhere but will either of these help?

http://www.vbadvanced.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1252
http://www.vbadvanced.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2023
Good find :) Might just be the answer/solution

[JBFRobisher]

This whole 'freedom of speech i wanna say what i wanna say without getting into twouble' thread seems to take place every 2 months or so anyways.

Well maybe if the mods lightened up a bit it wouldn't have to.

[BTTB]

Good find :) Might just be the answer/solution

Update.

I have just got an email from RPM Re this issue.
"VBAdvance is a different board than VBulletin"

RPM says he is going to look into it. Perhaps a bit of recoding may do the trick, but the frequent updates may kill it?
Lets see.


Well maybe if the mods lightened up a bit it wouldn't have to.
Enlighten us please.:)
In my own defence, I think I am perhaps too Conservative?

[nocilah]

Why risk turning this forum into a possible battlefield?

it is one section within the forum. Not the entire forum. I think if anyone spills outside this forum with behaviour that mods do not like that person can get warned/banned or whatever is decided.

The choice to enter the debate section falls squarely on the person who enters it. And debates should stay within that section.

No harm done outside a set parameters of chaos has no negative effect, if launched and maintained correctly, which MyAdsl and it's mods do on a daily basis anyway.

[JBFRobisher]

Enlighten us please.:)
In my own defence, I think I am perhaps too Conservative?

To me the worst recent one was the thread SAOL Maths 101 that got savaged and silenced just as things were getting interesting and true colours beginning to show.

Personally I got annoyed at the chopping of comments I made about a job advert that looked to me to be very one-sided, and I wished to show to potential candidates what some of the pitfalls might be. After being told how lucky forumites were to be being offered a JOB ( wow!! ) by another member, the whole shebang got deleted except for the original post.

The banning of karnaugh. I have read the loooooong explanations but am not convinced at all. The censoring of posts protesting this banning.

I am blessed in being able to smell BS a mile off, and feel that one should be allowed to cut and expose the rot without getting censored.

[Luke7777]

Update.

I have just got an email from RPM Re this issue.
"VBAdvance is a different board than VBulletin"

RPM says he is going to look into it. Perhaps a bit of recoding may do the trick, but the frequent updates may kill it?
Lets see.

hmmm, recoding (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=172811), but whether the same code is used to feed the main page, I wouldn't know

[BTTB]

I have notified RPM, Luke7777.
Thanks for the help.

RPM should get back to us in due course.

[BTTB]

To me the worst recent one was the thread SAOL Maths 101 that got savaged and silenced just as things were getting interesting and true colours beginning to show.

Personally I got annoyed at the chopping of comments I made about a job advert that looked to me to be very one-sided, and I wished to show to potential candidates what some of the pitfalls might be. After being told how lucky forumites were to be being offered a JOB ( wow!! ) by another member, the whole shebang got deleted except for the original post.

The banning of karnaugh. I have read the loooooong explanations but am not convinced at all. The censoring of posts protesting this banning.

I am blessed in being able to smell BS a mile off, and feel that one should be allowed to cut and expose the rot without getting censored.

Hi,

I cannot comment about that specific thread. I remember seeing the thread, but I never partook in it.:)

Karnaugh.
I started to write a sentence here, but stopped.
I think whatever I may say will come out the wrong way and we will once again stray off topic.

[-toady-]

Karnaugh was a part of what made this forum so interesting. He should be invited back.
LoneGunMan and BB_Matt make for easily understood clear reading and I for one would find it refreshing to have a section where the members who carry the double-standards banner in private could come out and be recognized by all.
I have absolutely nothing against any of the Mods on the other hand and in fact rely heavily on them at times to save me from myself heheh...go figger

WT :D

[antowan]

Pookfuzz's ever-eloquent posts have made me change my mind about having an unmoderated free-for-all zone, and I am now against it.

But, to respond to the quote above, I would say that currently the censorship levels are too high, and that hurts the forum, because when the mods do a slash-and-burn on a thread, they also throw the baby out with the bathwater, to mix metaphors. It is also very discouraging to have ones thoughts and arguments disappear, and I am sure this is why some members become passive or leave.

So, keep the mods, but blunt their knives!

I think people are being a little dramatic. Where exactly did any form of moderation go overboard as far as you are concerned JBFR? I am not picking on you here BTW, but merely trying to state the obvious. IMO the level of moderation on MyADSL is VERY lighthanded...

[tibby.dude]

Karnaugh was a part of what made this forum so interesting. He should be invited back.

He certainly knows his stuff although his point of view did not gell with most of the forumites esp some of the moderators ... sometimes I don't think they are as impartial as they should be.

[craigsa]

Conspiracy :D