Does anybody who visits these forums play cello, piano or violin?

[Humberto]

I would like to learn how to play one of these instruments and I am looking for advice.

[D34M0n7]

I used to play piano, never took the examinations but I my tutor estimated that I would be around 4th grade.

I had memorised the moonlight sonata :love:

But I had to quit in 2008.

What kind of advice are you looking for?

[Peder]

My Girlfriend Plays the Double Bass. What kind of advice are you looking for?

[Humberto]

I guess it's too late for me to ever be a virtuoso. I would like to aim to eventually be able to play the instrument at the intermediate to advanced level.

Based on my limited knowledge of these instruments, I have compiled the following table, some of the entries of which may not be factually correct, and some of the entries of which are my subjective opinion:




Cello
Piano
Violin


Beauty of sound
3
2
1


Difficulty to play at basic level
2
1
3


Difficulty to play at intermediate level
2
1
3


Difficulty to play at advanced level
1
2
3


Difficulty to play at virtuoso level
1
2
3


Satisfaction to play at basic level
2
1
3


Satisfaction to play at intermediate level
3
1
2


Satisfaction to play at advanced level
3
1
2


Satisfaction to play at virtuoso level
3
2
1


Cost of good entry-level instrument
upwards of R15,000
upwards of R30,000
upwards of R10,000


Availability of solo and chamber repertoire
3
1
2


Availability of good teachers in South Africa
3
1
2


Mobility
2
3
1


Portability
2
3
1



1 - Most desirable of the three instruments
3 - Least desirable of the three instruments

[D34M0n7]

What advice do you need though?

You can get a piano for less than R15,000 if its second hand. My parents got mine for R7000, but it was terrible. I was on holiday at the time and I told them not to buy me a piano while I was away, because I had to test it first, I find pianos to be very personal things... one size does not fit all... They did not listen and got me the piano from my nightmares.

[Humberto]

What advice do you need though?

I would like to know people's experiences, joys and frustrations with the instruments in order to help me make an informed decision of which instrument is the best to learn. For example, was it easy to find a good teacher, was it frustrating to find others to play with, etc.

Here are examples of music played on the three instruments:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yuR8efotI
Johann Sebastian Bach, Cello Suite No. 1 in G major, BWV 1007 - 1. Prelude
Cello: Mischa Maisky
Difficulty level as I perceive it: Advanced


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMs7o19C-YM
Robert Schumann, Scenes From Childhood - 1. Of Foreign Lands and Peoples
Piano: Martha Argerich
Difficulty level as I perceive it: Easy to intermediate


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb9jLxQfz-A
Henryk Wieniawski, Polonaise brillante No. 1 in D Major, Op. 4
Violin: Ivry Gitlis
Difficulty level as I perceive it: Virtuoso

[D34M0n7]

I would like to know people's experiences, joys and frustrations with the instruments in order to help me make an informed decision of which instrument is the best to learn. For example, was it easy to find a good teacher, was it frustrating to find others to play with, etc.


Well, I had a brilliant teacher, she was amazing, patient and kind. We developed quite a friendship but I haven't seen her since I quit.

My frustrations came from my crap piano, the piano needs to suit your personality, mine did not. The sound was off, practice was difficult. The sound made me want to smash it to bits.

I never played with anyone other than my teacher, but there were plenty of people I knew who I could have played with if I waned to.

Playing the piano (not the one I had) made me joyful, my favorite piece was, and still is the moonlight sonata.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puqsKGy0L_E&feature=player_detailpage

Sometimes I'd cry while I played it.

Not a very helpful post, my meds are wearing off... feeling out.

[Humberto]

My frustrations came from my crap piano, the piano needs to suit your personality, mine did not. The sound was off, practice was difficult. The sound made me want to smash it to bits.

One of the websites I visited about this topic mentioned the importance of getting a good instrument in order to avoid frustration and to motivate the student to practise. It was written on this website that many parents make the mistake of buying their children a cheap piano thinking that they'll invest in a better piano if the child makes good progress. However the child never progresses because their piano makes it difficult to do so.

Two other thoughts which have occurred to me:


I've noticed many violinists have double chins. I believe the regular and prolonged force of the violin on their neck stretches the skin around their neck or distends their platysma muscle.
Pianos are not only difficult, but also expensive, to move. They must be moved by specialist piano movers.

[D34M0n7]

One of the websites I visited about this topic mentioned the importance of getting a good instrument in order to avoid frustration and to motivate the student to practise. It was written on this website that many parents make the mistake of buying their children a cheap piano thinking that they'll invest in a better piano if the child makes good progress. However the child never progresses because their piano makes it difficult to do so.

Two other thoughts which have occurred to me:


I've noticed many violinists have double chins. I believe the regular and prolonged force of the violin on their neck stretches the skin around their neck or distends their platysma muscle.
Pianos are not only difficult, but also expensive, to move. They must be moved by specialist piano movers.


All of the above is true. Not sure about the double chin though, but everything else is true.

My teacher arranged for the piano to be delivered to my house, there was a tuner there as well... or so I was told.

I love all 3 of those instruments, but the piano has a special place in my heart.

[D34M0n7]

Which city are you in? If you're interested in the piano I've got the details of my old teacher in Pretoria.

[copacetic]

I guess it's too late for me to ever be a virtuoso. I would like to aim to eventually be able to play the instrument at the intermediate to advanced level.

Based on my limited knowledge of these instruments, I have compiled the following table, some of the entries of which may not be factually correct, and some of the entries of which are my subjective opinion:




Cello
Piano
Violin


Beauty of sound
3
2
1


Difficulty to play at basic level
2
1
3


Difficulty to play at intermediate level
2
1
3


Difficulty to play at advanced level
1
2
3


Difficulty to play at virtuoso level
1
2
3


Satisfaction to play at basic level
2
1
3


Satisfaction to play at intermediate level
3
1
2


Satisfaction to play at advanced level
3
1
2


Satisfaction to play at virtuoso level
3
2
1


Cost of good entry-level instrument
upwards of R15,000
upwards of R30,000
upwards of R10,000


Availability of solo and chamber repertoire
3
1
2


Availability of good teachers in South Africa
3
1
2


Mobility
2
3
1


Portability
2
3
1



1 - Most desirable of the three instruments
3 - Least desirable of the three instruments

W.T.F.

[copacetic]

If you choose piano, don't buy an actual piano, get a weighted keyboard.

[Humberto]

Which city are you in? If you're interested in the piano I've got the details of my old teacher in Pretoria.

I would appreciate that. I can attend lessons in either Johannesburg or Pretoria. It may be better to PM me this information.

[Rosaudio]

Go with the Piano. I used to play before I focused on guitar, and it really is a beautiful instrument.

[D34M0n7]

If you choose piano, don't buy an actual piano, get a weighted keyboard.

I had a keyboard before I got my piano, could not stand the thing... LoL, I just realised how picky I am.

I loved the sound that came from a piano, the smell and the feel.

[zizo911]

I would also have to say a Keyboard. I can play the piano, the keyboard is perfect for beginners.

[copacetic]

I had a keyboard before I got my piano, could not stand the thing... LoL, I just realised how picky I am.

I loved the sound that came from a piano, the smell and the feel.

Indeed, but pianos are absurdly expensive, and will probably cost the price of a keyboard just to move from one location to another!


I would also have to say a Keyboard. I can play the piano, the keyboard is perfect for beginners.

A good keyboard is perfectly adequate for thousands of music professionals as well.

[D34M0n7]

Indeed, but pianos are absurdly expensive, and will probably cost the price of a keyboard just to move from one location to another!

A good keyboard is perfectly adequate for thousands of music professionals as well.

Absolutely! But its really a matter of personal preference, keyboards and pianos are not the same, if you love one more than the other you should always go with the one you love... If you can afford it that is, if you can't its another matter.

[reedOsama]

I used to play the violin and I wouldn't recommend it unless you really enjoy music played by violinists.

If you haven't played a music instrument before then I'd suggest trying to get your hands on any instrument, practice every day for a month using youtube videos (without anyone forcing you to) and see how you feel about practising in general.

Now for the reasons I didn't enjoy playing the violin:

The stance: you can't relax and play your violin. To play properly you need to make sure it's firmly in your neck and held out properly in front of you. You can choose to sit but your teacher will probably advise you to stand (even when practising) since you're a novice.

Using a bow: is just so much harder then plucking a string or hitting a key. The difference is like analogue and digital.

Theory: I hated theory! and violin isn't like the guitar or drums where you can use tabs or any other shortcuts, you have to be able to read music.

The music: this is the most important reason, you need to love the music you create with your violin (or whatever other instrument) and this will depend entirely on your tastes. Not a lot of popular music uses the violin and unlike the guitarists and pianists I couldn't play a song I liked to myself which really frustrated me and overall is probably what caused me to drop it. (at the time the internet was still slow and expensive [dialup days] so I couldn't search for inspiration on youtube or find covers for the music that I liked... I didn't even have a lot of music since I obviously couldn't download any)

I hope that helps:)

[Humberto]

I used to play the violin and I wouldn't recommend it unless you really enjoy music played by violinists.

If you haven't played a music instrument before then I'd suggest trying to get your hands on any instrument, practice every day for a month using youtube videos (without anyone forcing you to) and see how you feel about practising in general.

Now for the reasons I didn't enjoy playing the violin:

The stance: you can't relax and play your violin. To play properly you need to make sure it's firmly in your neck and held out properly in front of you. You can choose to sit but your teacher will probably advise you to stand (even when practising) since you're a novice.

Using a bow: is just so much harder then plucking a string or hitting a key. The difference is like analogue and digital.

Theory: I hated theory! and violin isn't like the guitar or drums where you can use tabs or any other shortcuts, you have to be able to read music.

The music: this is the most important reason, you need to love the music you create with your violin (or whatever other instrument) and this will depend entirely on your tastes. Not a lot of popular music uses the violin and unlike the guitarists and pianists I couldn't play a song I liked to myself which really frustrated me and overall is probably what caused me to drop it. (at the time the internet was still slow and expensive [dialup days] so I couldn't search for inspiration on youtube or find covers for the music that I liked... I didn't even have a lot of music since I obviously couldn't download any)

I hope that helps:)

I've read and heard that it takes years of practise just to get a proper sound that isn't scratchy out of the violin. In addition there does not seem to be much solo music available for the violin so one probably needs others to play with once you are able to make proper music. So playing violin may not be very fulfilling for the first few years.

I reckon that if I cannot play the violin like a virtuoso, it may not be worthwhile for me.

I once mentioned to a friend of mine who studies piano that the violin is probably the most difficult instrument to play of all instruments. He firmly rebuked me and said that the piano is generally considered the most difficult instrument to play. But I'm not so sure. The violin has so many subtle difficulties that the piano does not seem to have. With the violin, before you can even start making music, you first need to be able to make proper sound, and that seems like a big challenge.

Based on the table I constructed in post #4, the piano seems the logical choice. With a lower score being better, this is how the three instruments score:

cello: 32
piano: 24
violin: 28

But my heart still leans towards the violin because, if played properly, it is such a beautiful instrument.

Personally I find the sound that the piano makes at times a bit fuzzy and confused. I like the crystal clarity and linear precision of the violin.

[copacetic]

I would pick cello over violin, any day.

[Humberto]

Indeed, but pianos are absurdly expensive, and will probably cost the price of a keyboard just to move from one location to another!

Pianos are also expensive to maintain. My understanding is that new pianos need special maintenance for the first few years while the soundboard matures.

Many of these instruments (cellos, pianos and violins) are handcrafted over a period of several years with the wood maturing in different phases. This is one of the reasons why they can be expensive.

[copacetic]

Pianos are also expensive to maintain. My understanding is that new pianos need special maintenance for the first few years while the soundboard matures.

Many of these instruments (cellos, pianos and violins) are handcrafted over a period of several years with the wood maturing in different phases. This is one of the reasons why they can be expensive.

Tuning pianos is also a serious specialty, which will cost a fair penny as well.

[Humberto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r0WW-KN6VM

[reedOsama]

1)I've read and heard that it takes years of practise just to get a proper sound that isn't scratchy out of the violin. In addition there does not seem to be much solo music available for the violin 2)so one probably needs others to play with once you are able to make proper music. So playing violin may not be very fulfilling for the first few years.

I reckon that if I cannot play the violin like a virtuoso, it may not be worthwhile for me.

I once mentioned to a friend of mine who studies piano that the violin is probably the most difficult instrument to play of all instruments. 3)He firmly rebuked me and said that the piano is generally considered the most difficult instrument to play. But I'm not so sure. The violin has so many subtle difficulties that the piano does not seem to have. With the violin, before you can even start making music, you first need to be able to make proper sound, and that seems like a big challenge.

4)But my heart still leans towards the violin because, if played properly, it is such a beautiful instrument.

Personally I find the sound that the piano makes at times a bit fuzzy and confused. I like the crystal clarity and linear precision of the violin.

1) when you're a beginner you can still sound great but it'll definitely be a while before you can play without concentrating on your strokes

2) I knew a lot of young violinists and some were extremly good yet there's only one guy I know who kept playing and he practised in his church (back when I was still playing) and now he plays in a band.

3) It depends on how you're rating difficulty, but on any scale I don't think the piano is the most difficult. The thing about "analogue" instruments is that a master and novice could be playing the same simple piece of music and it can still sound completely different. Other difficult instruments include the french horn, harp and after a quick google I also found that playing the bagpipes is really difficult too(who knew:confused:)

4) I dont think it will hurt for you to try it especially since it's much cheaper to find a decent violin than to find a decent piano.

I actually don't want to put you off the violin, it makes me feel awful since there's a lot to admire about a person who learns to play it... rather consider me as the first test of your resolve.

The movie that every aspiring violinist should watch: Music of the Heart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_the_Heart);)

[Humberto]

I should add the following categories to the table in post #4:




Cello
Piano
Violin


Cost to maintain
2
3
1


Investment value of instrument
2
3
1



It seems pianos can be expensive to properly maintain. I do not know what the maintenance costs of cellos and violins are but I suspect it is less than that of a piano. I suppose a violin would be cheaper to maintain than a cello since the maintenance issues of the two instruments are similar but cellos are larger than violins.

I believe that well maintained cellos, pianos and violins can be good monetary investments. To my knowledge, properly maintained cellos and violins actually become more valuable with age.

This would change the scores of the three instruments, with a lower score being better, as follows:

cello: 36
piano: 30
violin: 30

I have too many regrets in life from following the cheaper option, so this time I am not going to make that mistake. I am not going to buy a cheap instrument or neglect maintenance or proper musical instruction in order to save money. So if I can't afford to do it properly, I'll rather wait until I have the financial means to do it properly.

What is a ballpark figure for the cost of lessons to play these instruments?

[D34M0n7]

You should get a piano tuned once a year, unless something goes wrong with it. Maintaining a piano is not that expensive, it depends on how much work needs to be done and what needs replacing.

I can't remember the figures, but it was not that expensive. Best thing to do would be to check in the yellow pages and find a tuner, just ask how much the standard fee is.

[HeftyCrab]

id say you have two options.

1.go with violin.you said its special to you.very big oint.its not that hard-depending on natural ability.i can play grade 7 classical guitar pieces,and learning the violing came naturally.could play canon in d major which is a grade 4 song within a few months.if you love the instrument you will love practicing.

and

2. go with the piano,simply because of the theory.you have to learn to read bass (used by cello) and treble clef (used by violing). this will help immensly when learning another instrument later on as one of the most frustrating parts is learning to play a difficult instrument and learning musical notation at the same time.my gf first learnt the piano then violin and said it helped her.

get a teacher for whatever you end up learning.

go with your heart.when choosing an instrument otherwise you might have buyers remorse later when you struggle.

its not the be all and end all when getting an instrument.you can learn to play another one later.

keep it fun.

My 2c.

[Humberto]

I should add the following entries to the table in post #4:




Cello
Piano
Violin


Adverse impact on health
1
2
3



Violins seem to damage the player's neck. Pianos may damage the hands but I think it is not as serious as the damage done by the violin to the player's neck. I don't think cellos have any adverse effect on health.

This brings the scores of the three instruments to the following, with lower scores being better:

Cello: 37
Piano: 32
Violin: 33

On logical grounds I should go for the piano.

[Humberto]

Does anybody know any good classical piano teacher in Gauteng who teaches the Bach finger technique?

[copacetic]

Why would piano playing damage your hands?

What is the Bach finger technique?

[Humberto]

Why would piano playing damage your hands?

The great piano virtuoso Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_Benedetti_Michelangeli) advised that one practise until your hands ache too much to continue. This suggests that playing the piano may possibly damage the player's hands.

The German composer Robert Schumann may have damaged his hands in attempting to improve his piano technique. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schumann:


During his studies with Wieck, Schumann permanently injured his right hand. One suggested cause of this injury is that he damaged his finger by the use of a mechanical device designed to strengthen the weakest fingers, a device which held back one finger while he exercised the others. Another suggestion is that the injury was a side-effect of syphilis medication. A more dramatic suggestion is that in an attempt to increase the independence of his fourth finger, he may have undergone a surgical procedure to separate the tendons of the fourth finger from those of the third. The cause of the injury is not known, but Schumann abandoned ideas of a concert career and devoted himself instead to composition.


What is the Bach finger technique?

Knowledgeable friends of mine with whom I have unfortunately lost contact (besides which their music teacher is now deceased) always stressed the Bach finger technique. I don't know if they were exaggerating its importance. As I understand it, the salient characteristic of the Bach finger technique is that one plays with "round" hands rather than "flat" hands.

From http://www.pianotechnique.net/reginald-gerig-on-j-s-bach-and-sons.html:


According to Sebastian Bach's manner of placing the hand on the keys, the five fingers are bent so that their points come into a straight line, and so fit the keys, which lie in a plane surface under them, that no single finger has to be drawn nearer when it is wanted, but every one is ready over the key which it may have to press down. What follows from this manner of holding the hand is:

(1) That no finger must fall upon its key, or (as also often happens) be thrown on it, but only needs to be placed upon it with a certain consciousness of the internal power and command over the motion.

(2) The impulse thus given to the keys, or the quantity of pressure, must be maintained in equal strength, and that in such a manner that the finger be not raised perpendicularly from the key, but that it glide off the forepart of the key, by gradually drawing back the tip of the finger towards the palm of the hand.

(3) In the transition from one key to another, this gliding off causes the quantity of force or pressure with which the first tone has been kept up to be transferred with the greatest rapidity to the next finger, so that the two tones are neither disjoined from each other nor blended together. The touch is, therefore, as Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach says, neither too long nor too short, but just what it ought to be.

[copacetic]

Practicing until your hands ache is of course a sure fire way to injure yourself, and stupid advice to give out indeed.

Know your limits, otherwise you will put yourself out of commission, and ultimately spend more time recovering from injury than practicing.

As for the finger technique, I would not worry too much about that, just find a teacher with a good reputation, who plays in a manner that impresses you, and do what they tell you to do.

[Tacet]

@OP - your prices are a bit skewed. We have a good entry level violin, with a really nice sound, and we got it for less than R1000. We did get it through a contact, but even so the retail price is not close to R10k. I won't recommend a beginner to buy a R10k violin, too many people give up on the instrument once they realize how much practise it takes.

All of the instruments in your list can mess up your wrists. Violin's reputation in that regard is pretty bad, but the rest can mess up your wrists as well. That said: my sister's wrists gives problems if she plays clarinet for any length of time. Most instruments involves either bending your wrists or your fingers in ways that they don't really like.

BTW - if you live in Gauteng, I can't see any difficulty in getting a good teacher in any of those instruments.


My personal take on the instruments:
I love the sound of a cello much better than that of a violin, but that is personal preference. The two strings are very social instruments, if you join an orchestra. If you do play orchestra, you're pretty much sheltered by the rest of the section, so you can start playing orchestra long before you're a good player.
If you want to play piano in an orchestra, you need to be really good. When we look for piano players for orchestras, we normally search for someone with at least Gr 7/8.
I can't really see the point in playing any of those instruments only on your own. Piano, maybe, but I'd find that extremely boring.

[Humberto]

I think it is my destiny to learn to play the piano. I guess there was never really a choice between the three instruments.

[copacetic]

I think it is my destiny to learn to play the piano. I guess there was never really a choice between the three instruments.

I think you are making the best choice, personally.

[Humberto]

I got the book Piano For Dummies by Blake Neely to start preparing myself. I never realised that music is so complicated, though very logical. It's going to take a while to learn how to read sheet music.

[copacetic]

I got the book Piano For Dummies by Blake Neely to start preparing myself. I never realised that music is so complicated, though very logical. It's going to take a while to learn how to read sheet music.

As you say, it's very logical, there's just a lot to learn, and when it comes to reading music, it's just a hell of a lot of repetition.

[Humberto]

Earlier today I played some pentatonic scales on this virtual keyboard:

http://www.bgfl.org/bgfl/custom/resources_ftp/client_ftp/ks2/music/piano/index.htm

It was mesmerising. It felt like tapping into a dormant part of my mind.

Piano For Dummies is a good book:

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6011/pianofordummies.jpg

There are also excellent videos on Youtube.

Today I learned about clefs and notes. I think it will be a few years before I can play intermediate level pieces with two hands.

There seem to be more piano dealers in Pretoria than in Johannesburg.

I am contemplating buying either a good second hand ("pre-loved" as the one website calls them) upright acoustic piano, or a new upright acoustic piano. My budget is a maximum of R 30,000 although I'd prefer not to go beyond R 25,000 if possible.

What would be a good piano in this price range?

I am a complete beginner.

Some of the pianos suitable for beginners include Lothar Schell pianos, built in China, and Otto Bach pianos, built in South Africa.

They say a new piano should be tuned four times during its first year and once to twice a year after that. Tuning a piano costs around R 500 to R 1,000 depending on the tuner and whether it is a basic tuning or a major tuning.

The only advantages (for me) to an electronic piano over an acoustic piano are that they are less expensive, more compact and easy to move, and you can play with headphones so as not to disturb others. But the major disadvantage seems to be that even the best electronic pianos do not fully simulate the sound and touch of an acoustic piano.

If I get a piano, I still need to figure out where it's going to live. They say it should be placed against an inside wall to minimise temperature fluctuations although they also give the tip that you can improve the projection of the sound by moving it slightly away from the wall.

[copacetic]

Having played on electronic pianos, I can assure they are up to the task, if you get a good one.

Before you buy an enormous and VERY expensive piano, at least go to a music store and try a couple of electronic ones.

A real piano is great, but is its impracticality worth the amount of 'better' it will be than a high-end keyboard?

Regarding your pentatonics experience, wait until you discover modes!

[Humberto]

I went to look at some reconditioned pianos today.

I must admit they all sounded more or less the same to me, all quite good, with the exception of the cheapest one they had which was a Rippen piano costing R 13,500. It sounded slightly less good than the others though still quite acceptable.

The technician was most complimentary about a Schimmel piano of theirs costing R 23,500. Curiously it was the smallest of the lot yet they said it had the best quality sound.

Their most expensive piano was an Ernst Koch & Engel piano costing R 25,500. It felt somewhat better to play than the others. The keys seemed more sensitive to the amount of pressure I gave with my fingers.

Since I am not yet able to play the piano, I don't know what the different models feel like to play in real time.

Out of curiosity I asked them how much it costs to move a piano. They said it costs around R 1,800 to move an upright piano between Johannesburg and Pretoria.

Tomorrow I will visit another dealer.

[ponder]

Get one of these :D


Baldwin
Bechstein
Bluthner
Bosendorfer
Charles Walter
Estonia
Fazioli
Ibach
Kawai
Mason & Hamlin
Petrof/Weinbach
Samick
Schulze Pollmann
Steinway & Sons
Weber Piano Company
Yamaha
Young Chang

I also like the sound of a harpsichord ;)

[Humberto]

I viewed some more pianos. Three which stood out were:


A Rud Ibach Sohn with a Renner action costing R 27,000. It seemed (to me at least) to have the most resposive mechanism of the three and the technician recommended it the most highly of the three.
A Yamaha costing R 35,000. This is slightly above my intended budget, but wow, the chance to get a Yamaha! It has a third practise pedal. The technician seemed to think that Yamaha pianos are overrated.
A new Weimar costing R 29,900. Beautiful to look at and with a third practise pedal.

[copacetic]

What an INSANE amount of money. :wtf:

[Humberto]

Here is a video of a pianist playing Liszt's Mazeppa étude on a Schimmel upright similar to the one I saw yesterday. It's comforting to know that such a small upright piano can actually accommodate such challenging repertoire.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKko-EKPuNw

[Humberto]

According to the website http://www.robertspianos.com, the typical quality in England of some of the reconditioned pianos mentioned above are:


Rud. Ibach Sohn: 50-80
Yamaha: 48-98
Schimmell: 55-68


For comparison, the typical quality of reconditioned Steinway pianos is 60-90. Their rating system is as follows:


Ratings have been compiled by experienced piano tuners based on tone, touch and stability.

PIANO RATINGS: We have taken as our benchmark U1H Yamaha upright and G3E Yamaha grand pianos made from 1970 to 1980, since they are extremely common. These are given a rating of 65 = good. Ratings assume the pianos to be in good condition. It must be said, however, that there is a world of difference between a piano that has been well restored, tuned and the hammers voiced, from one of the same make and year that has not been carefully worked on.

Less than 40 = unacceptable
40 - 50 = passable
50 - 60 = fair
60 - 70 = good
70 - 80 = excellent
80 - 90 = superb
90 - 100 = dream piano

[Humberto]

Having played on electronic pianos, I can assure they are up to the task, if you get a good one.


How accurately does an electronic piano simulate the action of an acoustic piano?
What are the good makes to look out for?
How much would a good electronic piano cost?

[copacetic]

How accurately does an electronic piano simulate the action of an acoustic piano?
What are the good makes to look out for?
How much would a good electronic piano cost?


1) Well enough for thousands of professional musicians to use them professionally.
2) I know someone with a Yamaha, it's good, best thing is to go to a music store and seek the advice of someone there who can play.
3) Anywhere from 8-60K or so, I'd guess.

Best advice is just to go to a music shop and try some out.

[Humberto]

Upright acoustic piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktLvwGvLi_k

Grand acoustic piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA
(note: the pianist here plays in unequal temperaments hence the extraordinary beauty of his rendition)

Electronic piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZr4tRO4Q_Y

[Humberto]

I got the Yamaha Arius YDP 161:

http://www.yamahaproaudio.co.za/new/catalog/digital-pianos/ydp-161

It cost R 13,400 where I bought it.

The reasons why I ended up getting an electronic piano are:


I can adjust the volume and play with a headphone thus allowing me to practise any time of the day without bothering others.
Electronic pianos are cheaper. It may be a bit much to spend R 30,000 or more on an acoustic piano considering I can't even play yet. Let me first learn the basic technique and then, if I want a better experience, I can invest in a good acoustic piano. Many people are enthusiastic about learning an instrument until they start playing and realise how difficult it is; then their interest tapers. I knew a girl who passionately wanted to learn guitar. She eventually got herself a guitar, played it for about two days, and never touched it again.
Electronic pianos are not as big as acoustic pianos. I struggled to fit this electronic piano into my study; an acoustic piano would have been an even bigger challenge.
While the tone of an electonic piano is, in some respects, not up to the standard of an acoustic piano, the Yamaha Arius YDP 161 uses sampled sounds from a top Yamaha concert grand piano, which is better than what I would have got from an upright acoustic piano in the price range I was considering.
While the action of an electronic piano is not entirely authentic, it's possibly better than those of some of the pianos in the price category I was shopping in.
The Yamaha Arius YDP 161 has a sostenuto pedal; acoustic uprights in the price range I was considering generally don't have sostenuto pedals.
Electronic pianos are not as heavy as acoustic pianos.
Electronic pianos don't need to be moved by a specialist piano mover.
Electronic pianos don't need maintenance like tuning.
Electronic pianos are not weather sensitive like acoustic pianos.


Some of the disadvantages of playing an electronic piano (as far as I can see) are:

Despite the best efforts of the engineers, electronic pianos still don't, and probably never will, match the sound of an acoustic piano. Since they can only sample finitely many sounds, an electronic piano relies on software at some stage to form new sounds from its sampled sounds, and it doesn't come out exactly right. But of course, this may be a good thing if your acoustic piano has a bad tone.
Despite the best efforts of the engineers, electronic pianos still don't, and probably never will, match the action of an acoustic piano. Again, this may be a good thing if your acoustic piano has a bad action.
I saw on the internet that some piano teachers won't accept you as a student if you are using an electronic piano to learn on.

[copacetic]

Good choice, I feel. :D

[Humberto]

Today was the first day that I started learning how to play piano. I did various finger exercises that I saw on YouTube and I think my technique has improved somewhat.

I can now slowly play the first five bars of Scott Joplin's The Entertainer. This piece is quite difficult to play even though it doesn't sound so, hence why there are many easier versions around.

But the right hand position seen at 0:50 in the below video has caused my fourth and fifth fingers on my right hand to ache and burn.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRe8ldRytL0

I will arrange to get lessons as a.s.a.p. before I learn too many bad habits or injure myself.

[Humberto]

Played on a Yamaha Arius YDP 161 digital piano:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NThVwhPZ6Q

Played on a Steinway acoustic grand piano:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kzrq_FxYRk

How accurate do you think the Yamaha simulates the sound of an acoustic piano?

[Humberto]

With fresh ears, if you first listen to the Steinway and then to the Yamaha, the Yamaha sounds better than it does if you first listen to the Yamaha and then to the Steinway (to me anyway).

[copacetic]

How accurately do you think the Yamaha simulates the sound of an acoustic piano?

I don't think many people would be able to tell the difference.

[Humberto]

I noticed this morning that my handwriting seems to be more cursive than usual. I wonder if my personality and habits are changing because I am using a dormant part of my brain now that I am learning piano?

[copacetic]

I noticed this morning that my handwriting seems to be more cursive than usual. I wonder if my personality and habits are changing because I am using a dormant part of my brain now that I am learning piano?

You write in cursive?!

[Humberto]

I don't think many people would be able to tell the difference.

I had a family member listen to (but not watch) these two videos yesterday and asked her to identify from their tone the acoustic piano and the digital piano. I played the Steinway video first and then the Yamaha video.

She incorrectly identified the Steinway as the digital piano and the Yamaha as the acoustic piano. :D

[copacetic]

I had a family member listen to (but not watch) these two videos yesterday and asked her to identify from their tone the acoustic piano and the digital piano. I played the Steinway video first and then the Yamaha video.

She incorrectly identified the Steinway as the digital piano and the Yamaha as the acoustic piano. :D

Exactly, but keep in mind, obviously, the low quality of youtube audio, which will make a proper comparison difficult.

More importantly though, if anything is going to give it away, it will not be the piano itself, but things like the reverb, and recorded room noise, etc.

[Humberto]

Exactly, but keep in mind, obviously, the low quality of youtube audio, which will make a proper comparison difficult.

More importantly though, if anything is going to give it away, it will not be the piano itself, but things like the reverb, and recorded room noise, etc.

One of the features I have yet to explore on the Yamaha is the function to simulate reverberation according to room type. It has the following modes: room, small hall, large hall, stage, off. It also has a reverb depth function.

The Yamaha Arius YDP 161 uses high quality sampled sounds over three dynamic levels of all 88 keys of the Yamaha CFIIIs, which is the top of the range Yamaha concert grand piano.

[copacetic]

One of the features I have yet to explore on the Yamaha is the function to simulate reverberation according to room type. It has the following modes: room, small hall, large hall, stage, off. It also has a reverb depth function.

The Yamaha Arius YDP 161 uses high quality sampled sounds over three dynamic levels of all 88 keys of the Yamaha CFIIIs, which is the top of the range Yamaha concert grand piano.

If you are playing with headphones, you most certainly want to use some reverb, it'll sound way better.

[VernD]

Read this whole thread and I loved every bit of it. Kudos to all those playing instruments. :)

I'm an organist, not very accomplished, but an organist all the same. My sister thought me at age 8 and by age 15 I was playing in church already. Through learning here and there, I managed to add feet so that I could play every board - both keyboards and the pedalboard.

Also took up flute-playing about a decade ago but what I would really like to play is the cello. I already understand the string arrangement on the violin and, from what I understand, the cello's is similar. One of my sister's friends runs a music school and she told me that the articulation for a cello is easier and that I'd progress quite quickly if I were to take it up.

What also inspired me is that Stellenbosch University's Music Faculty is running an undergraduate programme as preparation for B.Mus. This course teaches you most of the music genres, the technicalities of music, and you can use it to do your grades. Also, you don't have to have an instrument as instrument hire is available. And, you can select to be tutored by either a music student or a music lecturer - a lecturer costing more of course.

This or any other form of tuition, would be the way to go in taking up playing an instrument. In our church orchestra at the moment, we're sitting with people who have taught themselves and we're experiencing real problems with the quality of music they produce because they haven't even mastered the basics of producing good sound e.g. flautists using incorrect articulation, producing shrill empty sounds; violinists not bowing properly - bowing is a basic violin lesson.

A good music teacher will teach you to master the technicalities of an instrument, before even proceeding to grades. This is what you would need if you're want enjoyment out of your instrument; any instrument.

[Humberto]

Another change that I've noticed since beginning my piano training is that, where in the past I only used my index fingers and middle fingers to type with, I'm now also using my ring fingers and pinky fingers when typing.

[Humberto]

I thought Yamaha had only the following two actions on their digital pianos:



GHS (graded hammer standard)
Keys use real hammers which strike a pressure sensor to simulate the action of an acoustic piano.


GH (graded hammer) (a.k.a. GHE for graded hammer effect)
Over and above GHS, bass keys are heavier than treble keys like on an acoustic piano.



Thus I thought the Arius YDP 161 has the best keyboard action (GH) available in the Yamaha digital piano range.

But now I see there is a third action as well found on some Clavinovas:



GH3 (graded hammer 3)
Over and above GH, keys return to their resting positions faster and offer first touch resistance when the key is re-depressed from a partially depressed position, like on a high quality acoustic grand piano.



For example, the Clavinova CLP 430 has a GH3 action. For comparison, the Arius YDP 161 costs around R 15,000 while the Clavinova CLP 430 costs around R 25,000.

Now I'm wondering if I made a mistake to buy the Arius; should I rather have bought the Clavinova CLP 430?

The purpose of the digital piano is to allow me to learn basic technique; I do plan to eventually get an acoustic piano. In this context, do you think the Arius YDP 161 is sufficient for its purpose?

I would also like to know what the warranty is on the Yamaha Arius YDP 161. The user manual makes no mention of a warranty and I couldn't find any information on www.yamaha.co.za yet the store where I bought the instrument mentioned that there is a warranty and I see in America they have a three year warranty covering parts and labour.

[Humberto]

The store where I bought the Arius YDP 161 says they are willing to let me exchange the Arius for a discounted (from R 25,000 to R 19,000) demonstration model Clavinova CLP 430. I would be expected to pay the difference in cost obviously.

Do you think I should do this?

[Humberto]

The store where I bought the Arius YDP 161 says they are willing to let me exchange the Arius for a discounted (from R 25,000 to R 19,000) demonstration model Clavinova CLP 430. I would be expected to pay the difference in cost obviously.

Do you think I should do this?

Any advice would be appreciated.

The purpose of the digital piano is for me to learn the basic technique and to allow me to practise in silence using headphones. Some time in the future however I plan on getting an acoustic upright piano to learn touch and colouring techniques which digital pianos can't accommodate.

So do you think I should pay R 6,280 and upgrade my YDP 161 to a CLP 430 which has a more realistic action, or do you think I should stick to the YDP 161 and use the R 6,280 towards the acoustic piano which I plan to eventually get?

[Humberto]

One of the frequent online criticisms of the Yamaha digital pianos is that their initial touch is too stiff. I played a brand new, bottom of the range Kawai acoustic upright piano today and noticed that, indeed, the acoustic piano had much "looser" keys than my Yamaha YDP 161. I also found it much easier to play trills on the acoustic piano than on my digital piano. But my digital piano has a nicer tone than the Kawai.

[Humberto]

Recall I am considering upgrading my Yamaha Arius YDP 161 to a Yamaha Clavinova CLP 430 for an additional cost of R 6,280. The main advantage of the Clavinova is that it has a GH3 action while the Arius only has a GH action. The GH3 action has three sensors while the GH only has two. Any advice would be appreciated.
I went to inspect the Clavinova CLP 430 today. Here are my observations:


I was able to play repeated notes slightly faster on the Clavinova than on the Arius.
I was able to play repeated notes much more quietly on the Clavinova than on the Arius. This may be the biggest advantage for me.
I was able to play trills fractionally better on the Clavinova than on the Arius although it may have been coincidence (sometimes I just have a good run).
The Clavinova has ivory-feel keys which the Arius does not.
The Clavinova seems to have a better sound than the Arius.
The Clavinova has two 30W speakers while the Arius has two 20W speakers.
The Clavinova has four (beautiful) piano voices while the Arius only has two (also beautiful).
The Clavinova has additional settings for the timbre of the sound, for example you can set the sound to "bright".
The Clavinova has a much easier interface with various buttons to directly enable or disable features and also an LED display showing you the tempo of the metronome. The Arius has only a few basic buttons and after that you have to enable and disable functions using specific button and key combinations for which I often have to refer to the manual.
The Clavinova has front support legs.
The Clavinova has a slightly bigger footprint and slightly greater height and probably weighs a bit more.


I don't think the Clavinova was dramatically better than the Arius though so now I need to decide whether it was R 6,280 better.

It is also my understanding that the Clavinova has a better warranty than the Arius overseas although in South Africa they all seem to have a one year warranty. Yamaha claim that the GH3 action design of the Clavinova lends itself to greater key longevity than the GH action design of the Arius.

While I was at the store I played on a entry-level Yamaha upright acoustic piano which they had on display. I think the tone of both the Arius and the Clavinova is better than that of the acoustic upright which I played on and I also struggled more to play trills on the acoustic upright than on either the Arius or the Clavinova.

Yesterday I played an entry-level Kawai acoustic upright piano and also thought that the tone of the Arius (hence also the Clavinova) was better than the Kawai acoustic upright, although I found it easier to play trills on the Kawai than on the Arius or Clavinova.

So I guess a digital piano does have some advantages over a lower range acoustic upright piano.

One of the salespeople told me that it is impossible to play good trills on an (acoustic) upright piano.

[Humberto]

I asked for advice on a specialist digital piano forum. The two main points that came through were:


The advantages of a GH3 action over a GH action are quite subtle and it will be many years, if ever, before I reach a level of playing where I would substantially benefit from the GH3 action.
The store offered me a R 6,000 discount on their demonstration model Clavinova CLP 430 from a sticker price of R 25,000. This is a discount of 24 %. One of the posters on the piano forum thought that a 24 % discount on a demonstration model is too little.

[Humberto]

I decided to proceed with the upgrade.

I am now a member of team Clavinova!

[Humberto]

What is the Bach finger technique?

I found out what the Bach finger technique is.

Place the fingers of your left hand on the letters Q,W,E,R,T of your computer's keyboard, pinky on the Q and thumb on the T, so that your fingers form a straight line, with the top of your hand horizontal such that you can balance a coin on it. This is the hand position used in the Bach finger technique. The idea is to let your fingers do as little moving around as possible so as to avoid hand fatigue.

Apparently in the olden days they actually had students practice with a coin on their hands which was not allowed to fall off while they were playing.

Also, when playing notes, you're supposed to stroke the key, moving the tip of your finger back towards yourself.

I've tried the hand position and it works quite well for the simple pieces I am able to play at the moment.

However I struggle to stroke the keys when playing.

Apparently this technique works well for some repertoire but music from the romantic era onwards should be played with hands that are relaxed and fingers that are naturally curved but not curled, as when your hands hang by your sides.

[Humberto]

On the digital piano forum I visit every day, one of the regular criticisms of Yamaha digital pianos is that their actions are too heavy.

The touch weight on good quality acoustic grand pianos should be around 50 g. Steinway specifies that, in their model S, M and L pianos, the touch weight should vary from 50 g in the low bass notes to 47 g in the high treble notes. Fazioli model 228 pianos have a touch weight from 52 g in the low bass notes to 48 g in the high treble notes.

I measured the touch weight of my Yamaha CLP 430 using coins and came up with the following approximate touch weights:

C1: around 76 g
C4: around 73 g
C8: around 61 g

Thus I feel that Yamaha have misrepresented the CLP 430 in claiming that it accurately simulates a grand piano. The heavy touch weights of the Yamaha CLP 430 will make fast pianisimo playing very difficult.

Can I return my Yamaha CLP 430 on the basis that Yamaha have materially misrepresented the piano's capabilities?

I would like to return this piano and instead buy myself a Kawai. The other two leading digital piano makers, Kawai and Roland, make digital pianos with much lighter touch weights which more accurately simulate those of acoustic pianos.

[copacetic]

How's the actual playing going?

[Humberto]

How's the actual playing going?

I am starting lessons on Friday. I am very excited.

So far I have been experimenting with hand and finger positions to see what works for me and done various technical exercises like practising scales.

Chopin apparently was against technical exercises. He had his students learn technique by playing actual pieces.

I have also learned how to play a few short, simple songs, like Greensleeves.

[Humberto]

One of the cool features of the Clavinova I have is that it has settings for different temperaments (tuning scales):


Equal temperament
Pure major temperament
Pure minor temperament
Pythagorean temperament
Mean tone temperament
Werckmeister temperament
Kirnberger temperament


Note by note, they all sound just about the same, but when you play certain chords, they sound different to each other.

On an acoustic piano, you would have to get a tuner to retune your piano each time you wanted a different temperament (and probably have him look at you funny). But on the Clavinova which I have, you can change temperaments just by pressing a few buttons.

The following article shows the history of temperaments:

http://www.novelmusic.com/roland/Technical/default.htm

During the 17th century, Werckmeister temperament was the standard, and during the 18th century, Kirnberger temperament was the standard. It was only during the 19th and 20th centuries that equal temperament became the standard. So music from the baroque and classical eras should actually be played in Werckmeister and Kirnberger temperaments.

I've played Greensleeves in Werckmeister and Kirnberger temperaments and it sound cool.

Some time I want to upload videos onto YouTube to demonstrate the different temperaments but I don't know if my camera would accurately capture the nuances of the sound.

[Humberto]

The following explanation was given to me on a digital piano forum as to why Yamaha actions are so heavy.

They say it is because Yamaha tries to simulate pianos that people may typically encounter rather than ideal concert instruments which most people will never get to play on.

They say most upright pianos have heavier actions.

[Humberto]

Here's a video of me playing Greensleeves. (You need to turn the volume right down.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBu61lvM3jM

Instrument: Yamaha Clavinova CLP 430.
Voice: Grand Piano 1.
Description: Sound sampled from a Yamaha CFIIIs grand piano.
Touch setting: Hard.

[Humberto]

I had my first piano lesson today. It lasted for a half hour. It was great fun. It felt like just a few minutes.

Teacher started me at the very beginning, where she would start a six year old child. Teacher says she doesn't like to skip things. I have already benefited: I now know where to find middle C on the staff lines of both the treble and bass clefs (I didn't quite pick this up from Piano For Dummies) and I have a better understanding of time signatures. Teacher also gave me three tips about how to sit on the bench, finger positions and wrist positions.

Teacher has two Yamaha acoustic pianos in her office: a vertical piano and a grand piano. They were very nice to play on. The keys had a lovely feeling of sinking in when I played them. Teacher says it is alright if I learn to play on a Clavinova.

[copacetic]

Kickass Humberto.

Few things as satisfying as learning an instrument.