Cloud Computing - What's your POV?

[Simpy]

Hey peeps,

Just doing a bit of research, What are your views on Cloud computing/Hosting/Slash/Slash...

Pro's Cons?
What you THINK it is; compared to what it actually is?

Thanx in advance

[isp-insider]

Hey peeps,

Just doing a bit of research, What are your views on Cloud computing/Hosting/Slash/Slash...

Pro's Cons?
What you THINK it is; compared to what it actually is?

Thanx in advancefrom a TCO perspective there are only pros and no cons.

[koffiejunkie]

from a TCO perspective there are only pros and no cons.

Too bad that chasing a lower TCO can often cost your business significantly more.

[HavocXphere]

Busy writing some code for the Google Apps Engine atm. Its pretty cool & convenient. All on a hobby level so nothing serious though.

I reckon its risky though for a biz. When they changed the billing for GAE lots of ppl got screwed over with 50x increases on bills. Which kinda blows since the code isn't particularly portable.

[Simpy]

From a TCO perspective yes, brilliant IMO. Also letting the SP deal with majority of the headaches is also a plus point.


Too bad that chasing a lower TCO can often cost your business significantly more.
I think any business today wants a low TCO across the board. But when it comes to DR, having a cloud back up solution seems to be the best way to go. Losing a DB that's run in house (HDD failing,theft,aliens,terrorists) could be a costly exercise. I say let the SP worry about keeping that safe. If they lose it, then there's hell to pay.

Have you guys had much experience with Cloud?

[isp-insider]

From a TCO perspective yes, brilliant IMO. Also letting the SP deal with majority of the headaches is also a plus point.


I think any business today wants a low TCO across the board. But when it comes to DR, having a cloud back up solution seems to be the best way to go. Losing a DB that's run in house (HDD failing,theft,aliens,terrorists) could be a costly exercise. I say let the SP worry about keeping that safe. If they lose it, then there's hell to pay.

Have you guys had much experience with Cloud?100% on all of your points.
cloud is a win win situation from every aspect. I've only on a few occasions had to setup tin vs cloud due to really high demand SQL servers and issues with IS's vmware environment that doesnt support clustering.

those that are reluctant to go cloud are most likely scared of hosting in "the cloud" due to security.... or not having complete control.

[tnero]

No cons?

You havent read enough wrt to the TCO argument.

http://bluescripts.net/2012/02/why-the-cloud-isnt-for-your-startup/

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/757063/why-would-you-not-want-to-use-cloud-computing

http://blog.serverfault.com/2011/11/17/why-stack-exchange-isn%E2%80%99t-in-the-cloud/

and to wrap up an all round excellent site for research

http://highscalability.com/

[isp-insider]

No cons?

You havent read enough wrt to the TCO argument.

http://bluescripts.net/2012/02/why-the-cloud-isnt-for-your-startup/

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/757063/why-would-you-not-want-to-use-cloud-computing

http://blog.serverfault.com/2011/11/17/why-stack-exchange-isn%E2%80%99t-in-the-cloud/

and to wrap up an all round excellent site for research

http://highscalability.com/cloud hater

[Simpy]

No cons?

You havent read enough wrt to the TCO argument.
http://bluescripts.net/2012/02/why-the-cloud-isnt-for-your-startup/
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/757063/why-would-you-not-want-to-use-cloud-computing
http://blog.serverfault.com/2011/11/17/why-stack-exchange-isn%E2%80%99t-in-the-cloud/
and to wrap up an all round excellent site for research
http://highscalability.com/

Thanx for the links provided. It might not be a perfect fit for some, but overall I can see more Pro's than Con's if you look at larger Cloud solutions.

A lot of the con's I read in the above mentioned articles are valid but smaller points made out to be massively EPIDEMICALLY huge, which shouldn't be the case.
I understand that for a smaller Startup it might not be 100% viable. But when it comes down to an SME (50-150 employees) who need to run an application(Stock/invoicing/DB) across 6 branches nationwide and require redundancy/fail over with a secure backup solution, Cloud stands out as the number one way to go.


cloud hater

Double LOL - Each to their own.


But seriously, thanx for the feedback guys. Much Appreciated. Please feel free to add more.

[tnero]

I actually think the smaller the business the MORE sense it makes.

When you are a big company and require a lot of resources then Cloud computing is often more expensive.

I have looked at SQL Azure because I primarily use the MS stack and the cost of a 400GB SQL database was something like
4000USD a month - though i know they recently dropped their prices.

Also it is pretty damn near impossible to signup with Azure using a SA credit card / billing address - it is a ridiculous blunder.

If you on the MS Stack i would recommend AppHarbor, other wise Heroku (though i think they recently added .net mono)

Yeah it is all great - but the TCO argument is only valid in some points.

Not a cloud hater - just giving you that side of the argument :)

[isp-insider]

I actually think the smaller the business the MORE sense it makes.

When you are a big company and require a lot of resources then Cloud computing is often more expensive.

I have looked at SQL Azure because I primarily use the MS stack and the cost of a 400GB SQL database was something like
4000USD a month - though i know they recently dropped their prices.

Also it is pretty damn near impossible to signup with Azure using a SA credit card / billing address - it is a ridiculous blunder.

If you on the MS Stack i would recommend AppHarbor, other wise Heroku (though i think they recently added .net mono)

Yeah it is all great - but the TCO argument is only valid in some points.

Not a cloud hater - just giving you that side of the argument :)teasing :)

[ghoti]

The cloud is great. Use it whenever I can. I dont use Azure though. Use Google cloud, Amazon cloud and several other clouds, but not Azure. I dont trust windows servers.

One day almost every thing will be in one cloud or another.

Clouds are more stable, more secure and more convenient that 99% of the platforms out there.

[tridev]

I prefer not to use the word cloud. It''s too general and can mean anything from hosting, virtualization ,web services to SaaS.
The word cloud is mostly use by marketing people.

Instead of saying cloud rather call it what it is.
Google App Engine, Azure = PaaS
AWS = IaaS

[UnUnOctium]

Cons: You're leaking data for snooping (especially in the US).

[isp-insider]

Cons: You're leaking data for snooping (especially in the US).do you have more info to validate your statement?

[ghoti]

Cons: You're leaking data for snooping (especially in the US).

How do you leak data for snooping on a ssl connection? Thats more secure than your lan :D

I promise you thats more likely to happen on a normal network than on a cloud network. More work goes into cloud security than a normal network security (unless you work for Denel or something). There are thousands of weak points on a normal network, this is reduced greatly by using the cloud.

The one real con for cloud networking and thats that you generally need a fast internet connection, other than that it beats normal computing on just about every level.

[UnUnOctium]

do you have more info to validate your statement?


How do you leak data for snooping on a ssl connection? Thats more secure than your lan :D

I promise you thats more likely to happen on a normal network than on a cloud network. More work goes into cloud security than a normal network security (unless you work for Denel or something). There are thousands of weak points on a normal network, this is reduced greatly by using the cloud.

The one real con for cloud networking and thats that you generally need a fast internet connection, other than that it beats normal computing on just about every level.

I mean from an information theoretic perspective, not a cryptographic. If you have any data stored in servers in the US the authorities there can snoop through it freely thanks to the Patriot Act. That's of concern to big companies with big competitors there.

P.S. This is just another cycle, the mainframe is coming back into fashion. A few years later we'll be back to decentralised.

[Simpy]

As for South African ISP's- who offer Cloud in South Africa, Who's the best? AND please add some sort of validation to your answer. :)

[isp-insider]

What defines best?

Infrastructure, support, pricing?

[The_Centre]

What defines best?

Infrastructure, support, pricing?

How about each of those individually (perhaps add "reliability" to the list.
Also would be nice to hear opinions on the provider with a good mix of all 4.

[Sinbad]

It's great for small businesses.
I dont believe it's good for a big shop. I think it's WAY overhyped. I'd be very very wary of entrusting confidential data to someone I don't have control/oversight over.

You say hell to pay if something goes wrong... But by then it's too late and your business is severely compromised.

[server-admins.net]

I dont believe it's good for a big shop. I think it's WAY overhyped. I'd be very very wary of entrusting confidential data to someone I don't have control/oversight over.

You say hell to pay if something goes wrong... But by then it's too late and your business is severely compromised.I understand your your concerns regarding sensitivity and access to data how ever any reputable provider has SLA's in place to ensure that such information is protected and in the event of a breach there are severe penalties.

We are aware of many "big shops" who utilize visualization due to its redundancy, cost and pricing.

Folks need to steer away from the idea that their data isnt safe simply because they dont have access to the physical hardware that it resides on. There are risks associated with physical hardware,for example : We've had railkits stolen from a particular data center and management at such data center were unable to track or locate the culprit. Stealing a hard drive is way easier than walking out with a railkit.

[ghoti]

It's great for small businesses.
Yes it is.


I dont believe it's good for a big shop. I think it's WAY overhyped. I'd be very very wary of entrusting confidential data to someone I don't have control/oversight over.
Of course its good for big business. If they really are that big there is no reason why they can not build this own cloud.


You say hell to pay if something goes wrong... But by then it's too late and your business is severely compromised.
That is more likely to happen on traditional infrastructure than in a good cloud.

[koffiejunkie]

Of course its good for big business. If they really are that big there is no reason why they can not build this own cloud.

Size has nothing to do with it. Facebook runs on real servers. Big enough for you?



That is more likely to happen on traditional infrastructure than in a good cloud.

Aah, but how do you know it's a good cloud? You can't see what's behind the scenes? And even if it was, you can have the best redundancy and backup strategies but if you haven't figured out how you're going to respond if the worst happens, and more importantly, developed a reliable and accurate way to assess the damage, and figure out what exactly you need to restore, you're screwed regardless. I see this happen all the time.

[ghoti]

Size has nothing to do with it. Facebook runs on real servers. Big enough for you?

Clouds run on real servers as well.....


Facebook manages their own physical infrastructure which they make available to partners as IaaS, they maintain a PaaS service for those partners and they use both to deliver their own SaaS as well as other "facebook specific" applications provided by their partners delivered to the Facebook user base. They are also one of the largest photo repositories on the planet today and their use of inexpensive, scalable cloud storage reflects that.

They've made a massive (and awesomely impressive) investment in scaling out their own data centers to support the physical infrastructure to ensure that Facebook and their application delivery partners remain highly available to their user base.

Facebook is a perfect example of a private cloud that was designed, built and maintained to serve their own members from the public Internet.
http://www.focus.com/questions/facebook-cloud/



Aah, but how do you know it's a good cloud?

You do you research and use common sense? :confused:


You can't see what's behind the scenes?
Depends on your size and pull with the cloud you are hosting on. Make your own if you are so big.


And even if it was, you can have the best redundancy and backup strategies but if you haven't figured out how you're going to respond if the worst happens, and more importantly, developed a reliable and accurate way to assess the damage, and figure out what exactly you need to restore, you're screwed regardless. I see this happen all the time.
Then you must be a terrible admin if you do not have a proper backup system. I would have an onsite backup as per usual in case nukes hit many data centers at the same time and my cloud goes down. This is 101 stuff....

[Sinbad]

Yes it is.


Of course its good for big business. If they really are that big there is no reason why they can not build this own cloud.


Their own cloud? You mean a vmware farm? Stupid hype about stupid new terms for the same old technology.

[ghoti]

Their own cloud? You mean a vmware farm? Stupid hype about stupid new terms for the same old technology.

./shrug. Call it what you want. It works. There are many ways to build a cloud....

[Sinbad]

./shrug. Call it what you want. It works. There are many ways to build a cloud....

And castles in them ...

[ghoti]

And castles in them ...

Cutting technical argument. Have no comeback for that robust point.

Some people hate change :D Me? Ill keep up with Google, FB and Amazon :D Some people still prefer using faxes instead of the Internet so I dont expect everyone to like the cloud, but one day... almost everything will be in clouds. I bet even you are using services already hosted in the Cloud :D

[byron_spy]

Its a reality that everything is going to the cloud you just cant deny that

My source is much safer to me in the cloud than on any local machine

[UnUnOctium]

Their own cloud? You mean a vmware farm? Stupid hype about stupid new terms for the same old technology.

+1e6. I foresee that the use of the words "sustainable" and "cloud" will become unsustainable ala http://xkcd.com/1007/ :P

[ghoti]

+1e6. I foresee that the use of the words "sustainable" and "cloud" will become unsustainable ala http://xkcd.com/1007/ :P

Web Africa has a position for you then :D

[ghoti]

If you are a CEO, Harvard has this really good write up about what every CEO should know about the cloud: http://hbr.org/2011/11/what-every-ceo-needs-to-know-about-the-cloud/ar/1

[Sinbad]

Cutting technical argument. Have no comeback for that robust point.

Some people hate change :D Me? Ill keep up with Google, FB and Amazon :D Some people still prefer using faxes instead of the Internet so I dont expect everyone to like the cloud, but one day... almost everything will be in clouds. I bet even you are using services already hosted in the Cloud :D

Of course. But I don't buy into the hype. It's not the solution to all our problems :) It's not the be-all and end-all.. and in the line of work I'm in, it's pretty useless...

[ghoti]

Of course. But I don't buy into the hype. It's not the solution to all our problems :) It's not the be-all and end-all.. and in the line of work I'm in, it's pretty useless...

Aaah well, it certainly is not for everyone, but in my line of work its perfect. In all my clients line`s of work its perfect as well. We have moved so many people into cloud based services who are incredibly happy. Costs to the clients go down and security and stability go up. I personally as of yet have to find one of our clients who this does not work for. Though I am sure there are many... just not in my line of work of running an ISP :)

Wait I lie... cloud services make ****ty gateway (proxy, firewall, contentfiltering) servers :) There! I found one! For that we still put in traditionals boxes for our clients (but normally hooked up to one or other cloud service like Cloudflare / Google Apps / Cloud monitoring solution... or something like that)

[UnUnOctium]

Web Africa has a position for you then :D

Nah, I'm not just another code monkey used for turning a design into code :P I prefer to do the whole system design and implementation myself. Working out pretty well where I am now anyways :D

Just to clarify on my standpoint: I believe it's a fad to call all virtualised, distributed services 'cloud' since someone started it. Same with 'sustainable'. The technology is good, it's progress but it's being used as a buzzword too. Do you remember the mass e-rection everyone had for 'fuzzy logic' and 'AI' a decade ago? Granted they are real fields but they get overhyped.

[ghoti]

Nah, I'm not just another code monkey used for turning a design into code :P I prefer to do the whole system design and implementation myself. Working out pretty well where I am now anyways :D

Neither am I... or Web Africa. I run a decently sized ISP.


Just to clarify on my standpoint: I believe it's a fad to call all virtualised, distributed services 'cloud' since someone started it. Same with 'sustainable'. The technology is good, it's progress but it's being used as a buzzword too.
Its a simple word for a highly scalable (across multiple datacenters) data storage and processing with redundant secure infrastructure with many different characteristics (like web applications or virtualization). The word seems fine. To me personally, the issues most people have with clouds, is petty and based from ignorance (it seems, "cool" to hate the cloud, but so few people even understand it), but I do understand there are real applications that are not in the cloud and I do understand the cloud is not for every usage.


Do you remember the mass e-rection everyone had for 'fuzzy logic' and 'AI' a decade ago? Granted they are real fields but they get overhyped.
Really, Ive been online (I remember when you first came on irc) since 1992 (and on windows since 3.0), never remember seen AI and fuzzy logic applied to business or having the business backing this does. Guess I must have missed that one out. We are talking about something that has real business application that is currently in use. Did you read the link I posted from Harvard?

[koffiejunkie]

Clouds run on real servers as well.....

You know what I meant.


http://www.focus.com/questions/facebook-cloud/

Facebook is a cloud and facebook runs on a cloud. And wtf dude? You're linking to a site with quotes from a bunch of CEOs - not exactly an authoritative source.

[roguemat]

Also it is pretty damn near impossible to signup with Azure using a SA credit card / billing address - it is a ridiculous blunder.

I actually just did and it was no problem at all. Used a made up address with a state and zip grabbed from wikipedia. It's a normal FNB CC.
It was also no problem to sign up for Office365 before it was available in SA.

[gongers]

I actually just did and it was no problem at all. Used a made up address with a state and zip grabbed from wikipedia. It's a normal FNB CC.
It was also no problem to sign up for Office365 before it was available in SA.

That I believe, but there are reasons that certain services are not made available everywhere at the same time. Azure and Office 365 will be officially available in South Africa soon. And when Azure does land here it will be the fully fledged Azure: stateful VM worker roles and all.

While it is fine to play with the services before they are supported, most of our customers want that 99.9 backing Microsoft offers and rely on the support that being official brings with it... right?

What do you think of Office 365? Of Azure? You have played with both a bit I take it?

[Ramcat]

That I believe, but there are reasons that certain services are not made available everywhere at the same time. Azure and Office 365 will be officially available in South Africa soon. And when Azure does land here it will be the fully fledged Azure: stateful VM worker roles and all.

While it is fine to play with the services before they are supported, most of our customers want that 99.9 backing Microsoft offers and rely on the support that being official brings with it... right?

What do you think of Office 365? Of Azure? You have played with both a bit I take it?

I have just taken over the IT for a group of 15 companies throughout Africa and i am seriously considering Office 365. There are about 100 users in total and about 20 of them on the road at a time. Haven't finished investigating all the costs yet but i doubt implementing my own centralised and redundant infrastructure(Exchange, Lync, SharePoint) would work out cheaper than the +-R160 per user per month that MS is offering.

[gongers]

Haven't finished investigating all the costs yet but i doubt implementing my own centralised and redundant infrastructure(Exchange, Lync, SharePoint) would work out cheaper than the +-R160 per user per month that MS is offering.

That, is exactly, the power of cloud computing. Enterprise-class functionality without the massive CAPEX that it would require to build that yourself and with a resonable OPEX to look at. There is a webex being organised by Space Age Technologies aimed at answering technical and business questions about Office 365 in South Africa on Tuesday the 26th June (http://bit.ly/LT8rEk)that may be interesting for you to attend.

Disclaimer: I work for Space Age Technologies and am part of the team answering questions on Office 365 in that webinar. My views here are my own however and my boss cannot fire me for expressing them ;)

[tnero]

Well i took the bait and recently started using www.appharbor.com