Advice needed - cell technical/legal

[Freshy-ZN]

Hi guys.

Ok the short version is I have a pending court case in which I am sueing someone. This person was a used vehicle broker and basically took my 4x4 and i never saw the money. I eventually reported it stolen and when they hauled the person in it was only then when I found out the location of the 4x4 (in pieces and blown engine...). The criminal proceedings i instigated never secured a conviction as its very hard to prove intent to steal.

So I started civil proceedings to recover the monetry value of the vehicle i have lost.

I have crucual evidence in the form of sms's from this persons contract number where they told me car was sold, money had been deposited etc etc etc.

My question is this:
1)How do I certify that the sms's that are still on my simm card are real? Would we have to call a expert witness to say they cant be fiddled?

2) Is it possible to even 'send' yourself sms's and make them appear from a certain muber/time/date etc?

3) Would Vodacom keep records of sms's?

Any advice would be appreciated as this seems its going to be a test case for the inclusion of sms's as evidence.

Thanks

[AcidRaZor]

1) Yes, get a vodacom representative to appear if possible
2) It is possible to clone his number and then send yourself these sms'es, but it's very difficult
3) Vodacom has huge amount of sms'es going through their servers, BUT he is a contract user, which means he has to have CLI and Itemised Billing. And sms'es (on MTN at least) appear on the itemised billing statement, with date sent, number, and what time he sent it at. If you could collaborate the time you received the sms, with the time on his statement, you can prove that he sent them. Also try disprove the idea that you're technically able to clone his sim card and call into evidence the criminal proceedings you tried put against him claiming that you tried everything in your power to get your money and/or your 4x4 but the person didn't want to budge or whatever.

[Freshy-ZN]

To clone a simm card wouldnt I need access to it?

[zeb]

If it were sent from a contract sim card they'd certainly have a record of the sms's

[telkomsuig]

Don't think they keep the actual sms though...i am sure they purge these rather quickly...Only time etc needed for the billing engine would be stored.

[asmith]

As far as I know Vodacom and MTN tech folks have appeared in a number of criminal cases and presented evidence that included the text of SMS messages. They can even tell where the phone was when the message was sent. For a civil matter it may require a court order of some kind to get it.

If this person has money, he would be sensible to settle out of court in light of the fact that you have proof of the text he sent you.

Get yourself a decent lawyer!

[dominic]

Get yourself a decent lawyer!a good idea

without much info to go on you would have to find the right person at Voda - as mentioned they deal with these kinds of requests fairly regularly so this should not be too difficult

this person may help you with process but it seems you will have to issue out something called a subpoena duces tecum - which basically orders the person to come to court under threat of punishment and to bring all documents relevant to the matter with them

if you don't have a lawyer or one who understand the issues the Voda person will know the drill in terms of how to present the evidence in court in such a way that the court feels it can rely on it - courts will lean very heavily on what the expert says

[Padded Mouse]

a good idea

without much info to go on you would have to find the right person at Voda - as mentioned they deal with these kinds of requests fairly regularly so this should not be too difficult

this person may help you with process but it seems you will have to issue out something called a subpoena duces tecum - which basically orders the person to come to court under threat of punishment and to bring all documents relevant to the matter with them

if you don't have a lawyer or one who understand the issues the Voda person will know the drill in terms of how to present the evidence in court in such a way that the court feels it can rely on it - courts will lean very heavily on what the expert says

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060503011124163C407742&newslett=1

an example of how even different sim cards can be linked to an actual phone!

[dominic]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060503011124163C407742&newslett=1

an example of how even different sim cards can be linked to an actual phone!from the bottom of that article

"Previous evidence also indicated that the other 072 number had been used in the same Nokia 3510i handset to send SMSes to Wilson from July 23 last year until August 9.

The state alleges that Rodrigues had sent Wilson SMSes of a threatening nature during this period for which she had been charged with intimidation.
...
During cross-examination, Rodrigues's counsel John van der Berg asked Van Niekerk to confirm whether cellphone records showed the serial number of a handset from which an SMS had been sent.

Van Niekerk said that this did not happen but added that the simcard details reflected SMSes sent and this could then be linked to the handset used for that simcard.

On Wednesday the state is expected to call a witness from Nashua, who will testify about the identity of the person who had signed the contract."

[Padded Mouse]

http://www.suntimes.co.za/articles/article-specialreport.aspx?ID=ST6A133517

[Highflyer_GP]

Yeah the networks do keep records of smses as well as the actual smses, in case criminal activities do arise. Had a mate who was with MTN who said that they keep all records of smses and even voice activities in case such circumstances do arise. They don't however monitor people by spying on their smses and voice calls as this would be invasion of privacy, however should a lawsuit arise they are able to do so for legal purposes. Speak to somebody technically inclined at Voda and get a decent lawyer as pointed out above. For eg. speaking to somebody at the help desk or customer care wouldn't get you very far.

[kingmonty]

For the record. All SMSes are recorded and kept by the networks. All phone calls are logged in terms of timestamps, towers connected to/from, numbers connected to and durations - and in some instances they an record the voice data. All web/wap/gprs/etc sessions are also recorded

[Freshy-ZN]

Thanks very much guys.

I have a decent litigation laywer and we are working on the case (both legal teams doing discovery ATM)

I posted here just to see if theres anything that weve missed etc. Im pretty thorough when it comes to things like this and dont always 'trust' the experts...

I want to make sure that every possible angle is covered and my case is watertight.

This person is a compulsive liar and im sure their legal team isnt being told the truth otherwise they would be obliged to advise their client not to go to trial.

Trial date has been set but as often happens......an out of court settlement may still happen. Im just not settling for anything less than what Im sueing for plus costs.

[-toady-]

Try one Robin de Rook at capetown 021-4144731. He is a telkom dude that i guess would be able to even find the relevant sms for you :D

CacklinToad
__________

Downright Dangerously Dim-Witted :D

[prox]

@FRESHY My advice is to have a Notary Public (specialised attorney) transcribe (ie type out) the sms messages and certifiy the transcription as true and correct.

[craigsa]

Why could you not get a criminal conviction? Possesion of stolen property does not need to prove intent to steal.

[Freshy-ZN]

@Prox: The sms's have been transcribed by a Notary as you suggested. Thanks. I am just trying to cover in case the defense suggests I fiddled the sms's but I dont think that will be a problem as it seems its not a simple thing to forge.

@Craigsa: Im not sure. I never even appeared during that case but I was told by the investigating officer that it the person appeared several times but the state prosecutor was unable to secure a conviction. Like I said, the vehicle was badly damaged and lying in a workshop when I found it. Maybe that had something to do with it? Who knows.

[craigsa]

That is utter bull*****. I would tell the lazy detective to get off his fat a$$. Possesion of stolen property is easy to prove. If he has it on his property or in his possesion then ......PM me if you need advice. Seems to me that they just threw it out as the prosecutor / detective once again did not do their job.

[Freshy-ZN]

@Craig: Yeah I was dissapointed. Remember though that I gave this person my vehicle on the understanding that they were to show prospective buyers. Then 2 months later when I had not been able to get either the money or the vehicle back (after much trying,...) I reported it stolen as I didnt know what else to do.

The cops arrested the perp and then they told cops the vehicles engine had blown and that they had taken it for repairs. They told the cops where the vehicle was and things went from there.

SO ja....what can one do but institute civil proceedings huh?

[craigsa]

Go and get some heavies to get your cash back - sorry but the law / justice system has failed you !! I feel for you mate.

[Freshy-ZN]

The person tried to flee the country a while ago. I heard about it and got a court order to seize their passport. The Sherrif and my laywer served it hours before they were due to fly! What then happened is that this persons father had to sign surity that in the even they were held liable after a civil trial he would pay the amount. He has more money than his satan spawn of a child..

[craigsa]

Bastards !! Thats why they have money - gangsters !!