Anyone else planning on leaving SA?

[Super Chocolate Bear]

After a few things have hit very close to home I have decided together with my family to leave for Canada/US at the end of 2008. (When my little sister is done with Primary school).

I will have far better opportunities there for both studies and work and I will not have to fear for my life everywhere I go.

We have friends in Canada and they dont even lock their doors :eek: It was kinda weird for them at the beginning cos everyone left their doors unlocked but now they do it as well.

When we do leave there will be no coming back.

I still love the country but I have lost faith in the way its future will turn out. :(

[zerofocus]

I want to leave, but i dont want to leave my parents here. There isnt much hope left for SA. Its really sad. The place i grew up in and loved all my life, is turning into a really tough place to survive in. I would like nothing more than to stay here, but its not safe anymore. If there was a way for me to leave right now and take my parents with me, i wouldnt think twice.

Good luck on your move, im sure you will be happy there. Ive heard there are quite a few South Africans over there allready.

[Telkomisaloser]

me when I'm can afford it, seems like thats the only way for me

p.s. I don't wanna leave but it's the goverment and the PPL here

[JStrike]

Not me

[hj2k_x]

me neither. Not anytime soon anyway

[Nickste]

Quite happy here.

[supersunbird]

Hi Super Chocolate Bear, its hammertime from CSS!

Good to see you around. Well, I'll maybe leave, I don't know, I havent had much problems personally but maybe I'll leave this place one day for the ANC idiots to ruin on their own. They have so many billions and they cant effectively run a police force?

Or maybe we should take our AKs, AWPs and TMPs and show them criminals who's boss. Or maybe we should all go overseas and become billionares and come back and buy South Africa and make it like it should be.

[krycor]

Next yr, for a bit/2yrs, if the country is still messed up in 2009/2010 i'll consider permanent.

[i-Guru]

i just came back from "overseas", and tell you the truth,... i think that i should have stayed overseas..... one is much beter off there

[mooK]

I spent a gap year in London last year and was amazed at how one can start a life from basically nothing with relative ease. Gonna be in SA for a few years now tho with studies, etc.

[hj2k_x]

I spent a gap year in London last year and was amazed at how one can start a life from basically nothing with relative ease. Gonna be in SA for a few years now tho with studies, etc.
what did u do there? Didnt u find the weather depressing? and the people?? :p

[diabolus]

Just keep in mind some areas in Canada [actually most areas] only have summer for like 3-4 months a year , rest of the time it's snowed and frozen shut. I have friends living in these parts and it's amusing how they are all positive and anti-SA in the summer months, as soon as they are 2 months into the winter season they are like a bunch of depressed animals in a cage, because they haven't seen the sun in ages...and mysteriously then they miss SA all of a sudden ;).

I think the first year it's probably still a novelty, then people either can't handle it or they change their entire lifestyle [from what they are use to in SA]. Growing up there is a different story i'd imagine, emigrating late in life, might come as a shock ;)

[mooK]

hj2k_x, I was quite fortunate in landing a a job as a typist listening to covert audio surveillance of a criminal drug-related family's house for a high profile court case which should be getting underway sooner or later. Was a really cushy job, I could work my own hours and was overpayed to the point of being embarassed to tell people how much I earn.

I realise my situation was mostly just lucky, but even if my situation wasn't as good I would've been all right. But I was really comfortable as gap years go. I lived in a house-share in Wimbledon, everyone in the house was South African and like roughly 10 years my senior.

Fortunately I missed the worst of the Winter, but it did get pretty miserable towards the end of the year. But Summer in England is pretty awesome I must say. One of the greatest things is how you feel like you're actually part of the world, as other countries are so accessible to you, you really feel like you can go anywhere and see anything, i.e. Taking the eurostar to Paris takes 3 hours and they're an hour behind so you arrive there in 2 hours after your departure time.

It really is something else over there, people are a lot more worldy. You really get the sense that we're kinda in the middle of nowhere down here in SA.

PS: Hate those damn chavs though, my God...

[dualmeister]

I want to leave, but i dont want to leave my parents here.

Yip. Same here.

Things that irritate me more about SA everyday. Rediculous "broadband" prices, speeds and lack of options. Ever rising petrol costs. House prices. New car prices. No high-definition TV. Having to wait to watch the latest movies most of the time. Mini bus taxi's. Not having access to latest PC hardware straight away ie places like New Egg ect. Having to live like a prisoner due to high crime rate.

Just tellling it like it is :rolleyes:

[Safferbeauty]

I wanna go over for a few years to UK to work and save and visit then will move back to SA and stay hjere rather. I dont like England all that much as the weather can get one day. But we shall see. If I have kids one day, I dont know if I wanna really bring them up in UK, that is for sure

[BTTB]

Proud to be South African.
Not going anywhere.
Maybe the kids can go and venture a little, but my guess is they will return to the nest.

[moklet]

Born in South Africa, raised in the Netherlands, and happily back for about 11 years now. Me is going nowhere

http://www.bannerexchange.co.za

[Safferbeauty]

I love this country so much but I need to go work overseas to bring some money back so i can have a decent life over here

[bb_matt]

I moved, got tired of being worried/scared all the time, also tired of living in a place where my culture wasn't the dominant one.

I'm originally from the UK, moved to SA when I was 8, back in 1976.

I've had an interesting time settling back into the UK, a place that has as many problems as SA does, although they are different.

The most pleasing aspect for me is to be able to live without fear in my house, if I leave the door open, hey, so what. I have no burglar alarm system, no electric fences - the peace of mind is just so worth the weather.

I miss SA in many ways - the wide open spaces, the plentiful sun, the opportunities, but I don't miss the crazy crime levels.

I didn't really leave because of that, I left because my colour/age was becoming a problem - late 30's, white male, BEE everywhere I looked - in many ways I'm lucky because I still don't have a family of my own, so it was fairly easy to just leave and readjust to life "back home"

I'm now in a strange limbo-land - while the UK is my original home, it's hard for an old dog to learn new tricks, settling in here has been difficult, but I'm becoming English again bit by bit.

I have no yearning at all to return to SA, except for the obvious - the African countryside is simply incredible. The Veldt, the land, the animals, the sky - the freedom. It's an awe-inspiring place to be, the camp fire and the braai under African skies just cannot be beat, it lifts the spirit.

Having said that, I also get a huge boost when I drive through the English countryside, walk through the woods or along the canal banks here in Southern England - I get a great feeling of belonging, this is where my people are, where I come from.

I was unfortunately really unable to adapt to the new status quo in South Africa, I'm too white, too European, I'm not comfortable with the culture of SA in general, I feel it's now lacking in anything deep.

Joburg was the cause of that, the quest for money above all else, the average conversation so shallow and materialistic. If it wasn't talk about "what I've got, or What I'm getting" it was talk of "Who got hijacked, who got robbed" - that's no way to live life.

The occassional trips into the bundu to restore the soul just weren't enough to keep me there - I had to get out.

Am I happier now?

Hell, yeah, I'm a bit lonely - many of my good friends are back in Joburg (the rest are in NZ or AUS) - but I feel far more relaxed and centred.

I am left with an issue regarding race, culture and all it means - I'm still trying to get to grips with that side of me. But my cultural identity is whole again, I'm where my family always was, where my ancestors are - a thousand years of history or more that made me are here within a few hundred km's - my very surname is a historical sign post pointing to who I am.

So yeah, I'm glad I left, but I miss the big blue skies ...

[JStrike]

dualmeister : Well, almost every country suffers from all of that except the USA. And we are better than many other countries (i.e England) when it comes to petrol prices, movies (Many show here before there) and TV Shows (Whilst we used to be bad, MNET/DTSV is normally on a couple of weeks behind the USA. Far better than England)

Agree with you on Broadband and new car prices though

[-toady-]

If youre young you should travel. No amount of worrying about your folks should make you stay. Go abroad and see the world while you have no ties and decide for yourselves if you can seriously leave this country for good.
Just see to it that the folks have all the security measures covered before you go and besides with telecommunications these days tis like wherever you go, there they are....
You will regret missing the opportunity if you dont.

CacklinToad
__________
tis better to die standing, than living on your knees.

[Safferbeauty]

My family will never move back to SA. They have been in UK for too long now. My sister has been in UK since 1992 or something. Brothers have been over since 1997

[KillerX]

Definitely want to leave. I have been overseas many times, and places like the EU, USA and Canada have it so much better than we do! Im sick of always being behind in EVERYTHING! Broadband, TV Series! Cell Phones, HDTV, online shopping, just technology in general...

Look at DSTV for example: Advertising PVR like its this HOT NEW technology! WOW! Meanwhile its a TIVO spin off from the states which was released like 4years ago. Also still no HDTV, and no 5.1 sound.

It seems we get ripped off for EVERYTHING we buy here. If its imported the goverment considers it a luxury item and SLAPS tax on it. Everything overseas is cheaper, and were not just talking by a small amount. The only thing that is still relatively reasonable here is property prices, but that is changing very quickly.

Then theres all the crime. And the useless goverment! I think corruption is incredibly high in South Africa. We have one of the best tax collection systems in the world (SARS) Really first class. They cant wait to get your money. But if I look around I honestly cant see where they goverment is spending any of the money.

If you goto a public hospital you will die. If you goto a public school today youll prolly be sharing a classroom with 50 other kids, and not recieve a decent education. The police are absolutely useless because they are seriously underfunded and understaffed. We all have to wall ourselves off from the world. Everyone I know lives inside a complex, and everywhere i go I have to sign a book to get in. Then theres the power failures everywhere lately.
Absolutely no public service at all! For the tax we pay we get nothing in return.

Im just venting. But it P*SSES me off what the goverment is doing to South Africa. I hate the fact that I will have to leave one day, and leave all my friends and family behind and start a new life all over again. And what makes me even more upset, is that I believe this country has so much potential! We could be right up there with the UK or Australia or Canada.

[hj2k_x]

///me thinks this poll will be very interesting...

[love56k]

well in case any of you are considereing bloem ...

We’re offering 30 seats on every flight on our Joburg-Bloem-Joburg route until the end of June at the amazing price of just R99 all-inclusive. That’s the lowest airfare on this route since we entered the market! Here’s the catch: you can only book your seat on Monday 22nd May between 12h00 and 17h00. And you can only book online at www.1time.co.za. So make sure you have internet access this afternoon and get booking. Visit Bloem and make history!

NB. i don't work for an airline, travel agent, etc.
and yes, i would probably leave SA too... if i ever became a victim of a serious crime.

[nivek]

yep was in europe recently too and can safely say if it wasnt for my family back home I would have stayed there..
SA is definately one of the most beautiful countries, the urban forest of jhb, the beaches in cape town, but is it really worth risking your and your families lives by staying here? No one is safe. My girlfriend doesnt drive alone at night, I have to follow my mothers friends home because they too nervous to drive alone..

What other country in the world do you have ridiculous situations like these?

I'm sorry but SA aint that beautiful :)

[ettubrute]

Well, I've been to Europe for 6.5 years, and love to be back, even with all the trouble we have here. Going again? I'm not sure... but Europe will definitely not be my first choice, ever again! ;)

[JStrike]

KillerX : It very advanced compared to TiVo. TiVo normally requires you to have another device (decoder) creating clutter. The best they have is DirectTiVo. And TiVo/DirectTivo is unable to do the watching 2-channels whilst recording a 3rd. This is trully an amazing feature. In TiVo's defence, it has some better software features such as season-pass, but DSTV are adding that software (and others) to the PVR soon

Cellphones? We are far ahead of the states here. They only went dgital in the last 5 years or so

[Vio]

KillerX : It very advanced compared to TiVo. TiVo normally requires you to have another device (decoder) creating clutter. The best they have is DirectTiVo. And TiVo/DirectTivo is unable to do the watching 2-channels whilst recording a 3rd. This is trully an amazing feature. In TiVo's defence, it has some better software features such as season-pass, but DSTV are adding that software (and others) to the PVR soon

Cellphones? We are far ahead of the states here. They only went dgital in the last 5 years or so
Whatever man "Telkom" nuff said.

[Highflyer_GP]

They may have went digital 5 years ago, but 5 years later they're like 10 years ahead of us :p And without costing as much as a bond repayment

[bwana]

Nah - feels like I just got here so not quite ready to pull a forest gump.

Besides - things are just getting exciting here. I live in a nice area - its quiet and as safe as anywhere else I've ever lived. Later on, if things change for the worse, then I've got awesome options. Until then I'm just going to enjoy the ride.

My supplementary question is: Where would you? London? I know its the obvious choice for many but why leave a country of disheartened South Africans just to move to a city full of em?

[JStrike]

Highflyer_GP : They are still not ahead of us. Japan is far ahead of us, but certainly not the USA. EU is also far ahead of them

[Vio]

USA's cellphone industry is almost as bad as our landlines.

[-toady-]

*My supplementary question is: Where would you? London? I know its the obvious choice for many but why leave a country of disheartened South Africans just to move to a city full of em?*

So true :(

[daffy]

I'm off to Ireland in 8 days. To work for a broadband provider.

For home users (40:1 contention), Entry level access (512kbit) costs E18.95 up to the Advanced (2Mbit) for E48.95
For business users (4:1 contention), Entry level access (2Mbit) costs E99, and the Top of the range (4Mbit, with 512k CIR) for E250

Its still not dirt cheap, but its very different from what we get here.
They applied for, and were granted their telecommunications license in the same year! They even started operating the same year.
How long has it taken the SNO just to get licensed? And that was WITH the governments "help". Anyone care to take guesses on when they'll actually start connecting customers?

[bb_matt]

Yeah, London is cool if your young and want to further your career - use it as a base to travel from when your not working - but it's expensive, crowded and there are a fair number of miserable people living there ;)

Plus there's a fair bit of crime, so it's not that different.

I'm in the UK probably as a stop-gap to further the career (the last push) before looking into Australia, where a lot of my friends have settled. I loved London from the perspective of culture and excitement, but living there for just 4 months was enough, luckily I found a job in a quiet country village in the countryside. I don't think I would've been as happy if I was working in London now - it's very crowded.

America? - doesn't really interest me much, I'd like to visit New York, but that's about it.

[schitz011]

Next Feb I'm taking my missus and heading back to the UK.

I moved here in 84 when I was 9 with my folks and at the time we lived in Midrand, which for those of you who remember didn't actually exist yet.. :)
It was countryside and bike rides and swimming in the jukskei (Try doing that now!) and all osrts of great things.

We loved it, having grown up in the countryside in the UK it was an easy transition to make.

Of course time moves on and eventually I got a bit older and went travelling in the UK with a view to moving back there. The gulability of youth made it seem like the promised land. Of course the reality was somewhat different. Sitting in a tiny hotel room in Earls court I got a terrible bout of homesickness and headed back to SA. After a few years I treid the UK again and ended up in Edinburgh working at a youth hostel. This was so different to my other experience, I had an ex girlfriend living in the city who showed me around, I met many many many lovely girls in the hostel :) and had a ball for 6 years. I travelled to the US four or five times, went around Europe and had the best time of my life. Eventually one day I got a hankering for SA again and I moved back here. I met a wonderfuly girl who I'm proud to say is going to marry me. However.

When I was in the UK, I missed the summer nights, the braais, the scenery. Getting back here was great, it felt wonderful to be back in the open spaces and see my friends again. For 6 months everything was great. I was living off what I'd saved in the UK, I was getting drunk with old friends, but then the reality hit home. I was out of the loop. A job was proving to be very difficult to find, crime was defintily on the up, the traffic was waaay worse than it had been (yes traffic is bad in the UK, but there is an efficient public transport system to back it up, or you can walk) The dream of what SA wa, or had been, had been usurped and in it's place was this poor copy of a declining african country. Changes are more obivous when you view them from a remote perspective. Move from SA for 6 years, come back and you'll instantly notice the changes. Changes that over the course of the last 16 months have made me decide once and for all that my future lies elsewhere, maybe not the UK, but it's a place to start. My finace has been told that she has no future in her present job, that everyone she has to hire HAS to be black. Things like that. I once arrived in the UK from a trip to the US with £50 to my name, within 30 minutes I had a job and a place to stay. The point is that people overseas can advance themselves based on their skills, here it seems your skin colour is the only thing that counts.

The point behind this whole long winded post is that many people won't move OS as they had a crap experience the first time. myself included, the first time living in the UK I hated it, but in Edinburgh I had the best 6 years of my life. Life OS is what you make of it, if you don't adapt, you'll never enjoy yourself. I saw it hundreds of times working at the hostel, you had Saffas, kiwis and auusies who just wanted the UK to be like home and the more you try to make it like home, the less it will be like home.. (paraphrasing from Apocalypse Now) South Africa will always hold speical memories for me, but the dream is over. It is time to move on.

[Hobagoas]

Maybe the poll should add: Already left
Cause I also wanna click an option :(

[Mudshark]

I am being transferred to Mexico:) , for 3 to 4 years, after that maybe back to South Africa or perhaps China:cool: .

[antowan]

MOD NOTE: OPTION ADDED TO POLL. "Already left..."

[schitz011]

How about an 'already left, came back and changed my mind and leaving again option' ;)

[kingmonty]

I will be leaving as soon as I have built up enough capital to do so, and as soon as I have completed all I am to do here. Why bother staying in a country when it's only a matter of time before you fall victim to crime? Why bother staying in a country that does not honour all its citizens fairness and freedom - irrespective of colour and opinion?

[schitz011]

Yes, one of my sentiments too..

Why bother staying in a country where the government only cares for one segment of the population and yet EVERYONE pays taxes?

Will the goverment help find me a job, pay for a portion of my rent, let me not pay rates, give me funding to start a business, look after me in my old age? I think not, that is why I shall take myself and my skills elsewhere..

I'm not bitter about the way this country is going, just very sad. When you look at places like australia and new zealand, you see what could have been.. :(

[BTTB]

Gosh.
You guys are making me feel negative. :(

I think the next 10 years will reveal where the country is going to go in the long term.
Do not forget the resolve of the Afrikaners. Most of the people reporting here seem to be more English? I.E. London destinations?
I wouldn't mind hearing what the "pukker" boere think about the situation?
Their origins were Holland, Germany and France mainly. I doubt those nations would want to see their brethren getting the short end of the stick?

[schitz011]

To be quite honest I don't think any of these nations mentioned feel any sort of kindred spiritness with the afrikaners.. It was an awfully long time ago when their forefathers came over..

Yes it is mostly English people I feel heading back, but also some of the most positive people I know are English too.. I guess mostly it depends on your circumstance. If you are earing good money, and you came over after the exhange rates went haywire (I'm talking about English expats now) why wold you want to leave your existance here for the Uk? On the other hand if you are like me and unemployed and seeking a better life, then of course the UK holds more promise than here (I'm English myself)

I guess what it boils down to is how well off you are and what your plans are for the future? I'm guessing it's mostly ppl under 40 saying they will leave.

[dghough91]

After a few things have hit very close to home I have decided together with my family to leave for Canada/US at the end of 2008. (When my little sister is done with Primary school).

I will have far better opportunities there for both studies and work and I will not have to fear for my life everywhere I go.

We have friends in Canada and they dont even lock their doors :eek: It was kinda weird for them at the beginning cos everyone left their doors unlocked but now they do it as well.

When we do leave there will be no coming back.

I still love the country but I have lost faith in the way its future will turn out. :(

Great decision, your future will be much brighter.

We came to Australia a few years ago, haven't looked back since. Obviously leaving family behind was sad, oh well.

About the locking doors thing, we don't do it here either, my father leaves his car unlocked with his wallet laying right there, nearly every night, we've never had anything stolen. The house is always unlocked, we only lock when we leave for long periods of time.

Unfortunately, certain people here have "things" against the Afrikaners, jumping to prejudice conculsions about us being racist, which can lead to problems sometimes.

[schitz011]

Something I just thought of..

alot of saffas overseas like to point out how bad things are in SA when confronted with the non locked doors thing etc.. like its a point of pride that the crime here is intollerable..

Was weirded out the first time I went to the US and saw people leave their cars running when they popped into Subway or something that didn't have a drive through! :)

[Lord Anubis]

Just spent a couple of weeks in the US & UK on business, wonderful, safe, fast internet, great food and great/best strippers (Yeehaa) .

I was naar when I saw JHB airport from the air....very naar!

BTW as I left the terminal I immediately had to grab hold of my bags (theft threat from some lurking tsotsi's) and climb over a mountain of rubble and garbage on my way to my car due to the construction work. Only to come home and find my internet connection half dead and disconnecting every hour..and someone stole my old rusty postbox off of the gate post.

SA JY MAAK MY NAAR! EK WIL VOETASEK HIERSO! EISH! maar ek sal nie, want ek hou van sukkel!

[stix]

See ya

[telkomsuig]

I lived in the states in two big cities Boston and LA and in both of them I would definatly not leave my car running in public or not lock my doors. The difference with crime in the US though the police do something if you are victim not like the cops here..

On the issue of leaving sa. I am going on a look and see trip to Australia next year Feb/March if I like it I will most probably start with visa process and move.

[dghough91]

SA JY MAAK MY NAAR! EK WIL VOETASEK HIERSO! EISH! maar ek sal nie, want ek hou van sukkel!

Sien jou laater :D

As jy 'n bietjie sukkel wil he, gaan na Amerika toe :D

ag, my Afrikaans is nie so goet nie hierdie daa.

[pupa]

This is why everyone with decency and love for his family should think and prolly have so!
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=534844#post534844

[ajak]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_News&set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn20060522054258719C487051

[Gothan]

Gosh.
You guys are making me feel negative. :(

I think the next 10 years will reveal where the country is going to go in the long term.
Do not forget the resolve of the Afrikaners. Most of the people reporting here seem to be more English? I.E. London destinations?
I wouldn't mind hearing what the "pukker" boere think about the situation?
Their origins were Holland, Germany and France mainly. I doubt those nations would want to see their brethren getting the short end of the stick?

I really dont think there is a country, outside this one, that afrikaners can feel a kinship too. Remember most of them came this way cause of religious prosecutions and various other reasons. And when the Cape became english, they moved up north. So I think its natural for us afrikaners to "trek" to greener pastures.

If I can get a job overseas, I would move within a heartbeat(speaking from my afrikaner point of view), I have seen far too many beautiful things in this country, become ugly, and last nights little segment on carte blanche about land reform, just firmed my resolution to get the family to "greener pastures"

[schitz011]

RE: the Sunnyside article.

I used to live just off Esseln street and hang out at SunnyPark. Liivng in the city was great fun and we used to walk around at all hours of the night. It was bright and vibrant and awesome.

Now of course all this has changed. I accept change, but when every single element of your youthful memories are usurped then it gets very sad.

I was just saying to the girlfiend in the car earlier, that we have to put up with all the inconveinences of modern urban living, but get none of the benefits. At least in the UK/USA/AUS, if you live in the cities, granted there are areas that are dodgy, but there is a healthy city life. Here there is just a cancer that will eat up our country festering away..

[lilDeath]

YE noticed most are mentioning UK.
Don't forget about AUS, especially for those that will miss the weather and canno take the cold of Europe. AUS is prolly the country closest to SA, depending on what coast you decide to settle, of course.

[antowan]

I've lived overseas for 5.5 years already.
Crime is here and a threat to everybody, however, I take my chances. Makes life more interesting.
Remember that crime is everywhere in the world, not just SA, I think a big thing in the reporting of crime is that in the apartheid years we wer'nt as exposed to the reporting of crime as we are today, yes it has gone up but the newspapers also report it in a much more sensationlist manner than in the 80's.
The only place where I've been where I did not once see a crime commited was in Singapore, and that place is damned expensive. Oh yeah and the Ant-Artic lol

I honestly cannot remember fences when I was younger. I even have pictures of open neighbourhoods. My parents weren't freaked out about me walking alone after school when I was in primary school. I remember how free we were as kids with no fear for anybody wanting to harm us. Kids today are scared or taught to be scared. It is different today. I don't think crime was as big back then as now. Things are most definitely more dangerous. I know because I've had 2 hijackings in the family in the last 12 months, my car has been broken in to a number of times as was the case with every single friend I know. I don't know (come to think of it) somebody unscathed by crime.

[Gothan]

YE noticed most are mentioning UK.
Don't forget about AUS, especially for those that will miss the weather and canno take the cold of Europe. AUS is prolly the country closest to SA, depending on what coast you decide to settle, of course.

Just one problem with that.....Australia...is filled with australians

[The_Librarian]

I will remain for as long as possible.

[lilDeath]

roffel...tru dat, not too many in the outback tho :D just some kangaroos!! :rolleyes:
And stay outa Perth, coz that's where the rest of SA is ;)

[Singu]

I selected the already left option but im actually only leaving here on the 10th of June next month.

I was born and raised in South Africa. My parents were born and grew up in South Africa.

Jy kan maar se ek is 'n rou afrikaner .. :)

I got a job in the Netherlands, and yes, I was looking for one as well. I had enough of this country. Do I know what im letting myself in for? Hell yes.

I have been to Spain, Germany and obviously to the Netherlands before. Each time I loved it, each time I did not want to come back to SA. I guess the big difference for me is that I have very good and close friends living in Germany, Netherlands and in London England.

I am sad to be leaving South Africa. For all the reasons mentioned in this thread already and then some. I will be leaving my family and friends behind. But I am going to old and and new friends in Europe, and hopefully I will be starting my own family there as well soon.

I will miss the "braais" under the african skies. Nature. Unfortunatly its all being spoiled by crime and AA / BEE. I am afraid that as far as SA goes I am done with it. Yes, I will come and visit family, but live here again? Sorry to say but no.

I wish all the South Africans here the best. It sure does have the potential to be a great country, I just dont see it being that anytime soon.

[pupa]

I wish all the South Africans here the best. It sure does have the potential to be a great country, I just dont see it being that anytime soon. Exactly the same sentiments and experience here! This country will never recover, name anyone north of our border that did! To many war mongering self centred natives of the land, too many small groups fighting for power or large group dominating the rest.

This is why, http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_News&set_id=1&click_id=&art_id=vn20060522054258719C487051 Their favorite team lost! What they do?? When we lost against Botswana this was different, was it? That's what happens if losers are interested in Sport!. Worse than Europe!


The fans, who had been watching the game on television, threw bottles, stones and bricks in the streets. They taunted police, smashed cars and caused people to flee for their lives.

[BTTB]

I honestly cannot remember fences when I was younger. I even have pictures of open neighbourhoods. My parents weren't freaked out about me walking alone after school when I was in primary school. I remember how free we were as kids with no fear for anybody wanting to harm us. Kids today are scared or taught to be scared. It is different today. I don't think crime was as big back then as now. Things are most definitely more dangerous. I know because I've had 2 hijackings in the family in the last 12 months, my car has been broken in to a number of times as was the case with every single friend I know. I don't know (come to think of it) somebody unscathed by crime.
I lived in Hout Bay for about 7 years from 1979 to about 1985.
The front door was always left open and never locked. We only closed the door when the weather was cold. For all those years we never had any problems.
Nowadays, you would be taking a gamble to live like that?

I remember Hout Bay when there was just one man in a hut that lived on the Sand Dune above North Shore and another next to the Disa River.
That was the only informal housing in those days.
I drove through Hout Bay recently and the Development that has taken place since we lived there is incredible.
The explosion of formal and informal developments is staggering.

[pupa]

The nostalgia wants to make me cry, gone are those days, Our generations will never know what we are talking about! If they get to Europe USA they would be scared to hell walking the streets as they would not be used to it. Get drunk like overindulgence just from walking around!

[rainynight65]

This thread pretty much confirms what I have heard from so many people. Many people leave South Africa and eventually come back, realizing that Europe and America are not that much better.

I just moved to South Africa from Germany one and a half years ago, and I didn't regret it for a second. Sure, Europe may be ahead in certain things, like broadband, but don't be mistaken. You get the same cellphones here that you get over there, and DSTV is actually more up-to-date on TV series than most European stations. Petrol prices will make you crap in your pants (right now petrol here costs just a bit more than half of what it costs in Germany). Sure, you have less crime, but is that really everything?

I left Germany because I couldn't stand it anymore. It's all so square. Germany doesn't have problems, but it will soon if the politicians carry on like this. Ten years ago, if you left university with a decent grade, you were basically set. Nowadays you struggle finding a job. I would never have dreamed of raising a child in Germany. Now I am married to a South African woman and have a 5 month old son. I started a business with utmost ease (unlike Europe, where you first have to enter a paper war), and I don't see myself going anywhere.

If the situation here goes belly-up, I alyways have toe possibility to take my family and go back to Europe. I would however never go back to Germany, rather choose a country like the UK or the Netherlands. But I will not go back just like that. Sure, this country has problems, but so does every other country in the world.

[dghough91]

roffel...tru dat, not too many in the outback tho :D just some kangaroos!! :rolleyes:
And stay outa Perth, coz that's where the rest of SA is ;)

Perth is infested with South Africans, you could swear it's a South Africa city, and it's also isolated.

Settle on the East Coast, there is more 'life' here.

[pupa]

Perth is infested with South Africans, you could swear it's a South Africa city, and it's also isolated.

Settle on the East Coast, there is more 'life' here.

:D Now who's racist? or why Perth!

[James]

First, Super Chocolate Bear, why the name change?


I am waiting for my girl friend to finish Unisa and then I will be gone. I love everything about South Africa except the people. The people who rape, steal, murder. The corruption in rank and this entire reverse aparthied (BEE, AA and the works) puts me at a huge disadvantage being a young white male.

Of my close friends (around 10-15) 5 have left and another 7 are leaving. Of the 5 that have left, all went into jobs that have raised the standard of their living to a standard which they could not have achieved here. There is not a whole heap which makes me want to stay, the scale is so weighted now Chuck would battle to even it out.

You can have my SA passport when I leave because I will only need my british passports on holiday visits back here.

[supersunbird]

Maybe we need to instill a curfew and pass system (for everybody), had them in the good old less-crime days...

[ettubrute]

And who will enforce it? The police? They're just there protecting VIPs! (Exceptions do exist! ;))

But that would be the trigger for me to leave immediately!

[Singu]

Sure, you have less crime, but is that really everything?


Mm .. I can see youre new to the country. And I would like to know where you live here as well?

I know people in Germany. That live there, and no they did not move there they were born there, and I have been there myself. You need a wake up call. Can you not read the news? Or this forum for that matter?

All I say to you is, goodluck. I wonder if you will still think crime is not that much of an issue if you, or heaven forbid your wife and child, are a victim of the every day violent crime in this country. And thats the thing, mostly crime here are just that, violent.

I will say it again, I wish you all the best. I dont see you lasting that long here though. I am sure we will talk again on this forum.

[ettubrute]

Just a warning to the leavers... ;)

You know why the grass is greener on the other side? More ****!

All countries have their problems. All countries have crime. And no, Europe is not that much better with regards to crime... it's just hidden! Been there, seen it... and most people living there are acting like ostriches, 'cause they don't want to know about it! Same in Canada... my in-laws' house was emptied out the same way they do here: drove into the garage with a moving truck, packed it up, and drove off.

[pupa]

Just a warning to the leavers... ;)

You know why the grass is greener on the other side? More ****!

All countries have their problems. All countries have crime. And no, Europe is not that much better with regards to crime... it's just hidden! Been there, seen it... and most people living there are acting like ostriches, 'cause they don't want to know about it! Same in Canada... my in-laws' house was emptied out the same way they do here: drove into the garage with a moving truck, packed it up, and drove off.

G@d what an optimistic reasoning! Call up real facts, % as per capita PPL, There is more crime murders per day in South Africa than per year in London or USA. I have family that moved to NZ, friends in USA and Canada. I visited USA, Canada, Sweden, Austria (during the Baltic war), Germany, Finland and there is no comparison! C'mon be realistic. Do not listen what these ANC and other idiots brainwash or tell you, there is crime yes, but
1) It is uncommon
2) Police take action
3) You are safer there

You and your family have a good chance of strive anytime soon in South Africa. It is bordering on anarchy! remember the cape strike last week, soccer over the weekend?

[ajak]

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1937201,00.html
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1937202,00.html

[rainynight65]

Mm .. I can see youre new to the country. And I would like to know where you live here as well?

I know people in Germany. That live there, and no they did not move there they were born there, and I have been there myself. You need a wake up call. Can you not read the news? Or this forum for that matter?

All I say to you is, goodluck. I wonder if you will still think crime is not that much of an issue if you, or heaven forbid your wife and child, are a victim of the every day violent crime in this country. And thats the thing, mostly crime here are just that, violent.

I will say it again, I wish you all the best. I dont see you lasting that long here though. I am sure we will talk again on this forum.

Who are you to judge me? I was born in Germany, I lived there for 27 years, and I probably know more people there than you. I never said crime wasn't an issue, although I probably live in one of the less problematic areas in ZA. I see the news, and I know it's not a good thing. But I also see what is going on in Europe, probably more than you do, because I know the context. And what I see makes me want to go back even less than is the case already.

You keep going on about the crime, as if the absence of crime made Europe a better place. Firstly, that's not the case. You say you have been to Germany. What did your friends show you? Did they take you to the areas in Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, where noone goes at night? I have been there. Enclosed living complexes with fences and gates are becoming more and more normal in certain areas of Europe. Did they show you the people, the children that live in the streets, not even in shacks but under bridges and in subway stations? I have seen them. Unemployment is on the rise in Germany, the gap between poor and rich is opening more and more, with rich people being pampered by the state on the cost of the poor. More and more young academics leave Germany because they see no perspective. I am one of them. Corruption is not unique to Africa. Politicians in Germany are shamelessly corrupt, and if they are caught they are treated the same way there they are treated here: they get a slap on the wrist and a fat pension cheque. I have seen it. The rest of Europe is not that much better.

I am trying to show you the flipside of Europe. You just hear from some lucky chaps who managed to make a decent living there, but that's not the normality. Cheap broadband and a bit more to watch on TV is not everything. Most peopel just trade one discomfort for another, and will never be happy whereever they are.

[ajak]

http://www.deutsche-welle.de/dw/article/0,2144,2020431,00.html

[DigitalSoldier]

The nostalgia wants to make me cry, gone are those days, Our generations will never know what we are talking about! If they get to Europe USA they would be scared to hell walking the streets as they would not be used to it. Get drunk like overindulgence just from walking around!

LOL I dont even know what ur talking about. Ever since I can remember we locked our doors but then again im not a toppie :p

[DigitalSoldier]

Who are you to judge me? I was born in Germany, I lived there for 27 years, and I probably know more people there than you. I never said crime wasn't an issue, although I probably live in one of the less problematic areas in ZA. I see the news, and I know it's not a good thing. But I also see what is going on in Europe, probably more than you do, because I know the context. And what I see makes me want to go back even less than is the case already.

You keep going on about the crime, as if the absence of crime made Europe a better place. Firstly, that's not the case. You say you have been to Germany. What did your friends show you? Did they take you to the areas in Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, where noone goes at night? I have been there. Enclosed living complexes with fences and gates are becoming more and more normal in certain areas of Europe. Did they show you the people, the children that live in the streets, not even in shacks but under bridges and in subway stations? I have seen them. Unemployment is on the rise in Germany, the gap between poor and rich is opening more and more, with rich people being pampered by the state on the cost of the poor. More and more young academics leave Germany because they see no perspective. I am one of them. Corruption is not unique to Africa. Politicians in Germany are shamelessly corrupt, and if they are caught they are treated the same way there they are treated here: they get a slap on the wrist and a fat pension cheque. I have seen it. The rest of Europe is not that much better.

I am trying to show you the flipside of Europe. You just hear from some lucky chaps who managed to make a decent living there, but that's not the normality. Cheap broadband and a bit more to watch on TV is not everything. Most peopel just trade one discomfort for another, and will never be happy whereever they are.

Germany may have all that crime but the article posted by ajak disagrees but even so stealing and those other petty crimes are nothing compared to south africa here we have violent crime stuff that actually scare you not things like "ooh they will break into my house they might steal something" here it is they will eventually break into my house kill me and then decide to steal something

[zesto]

With all the globalisation of human resources and outsourcing in the IT industry im not sure how long europe will survive before they start feeling the pinch. The amount of IT jobs being outsourced to South Africa alone is incredible!!!

[neio]

The amount of IT jobs being outsourced to South Africa alone is incredible!!!
Agreed!!, IBM alone is currently taking over 30 SAP boxes from Europe with their new outsource drive.

[bb_matt]

I'd say Australia is the best place for Saffas to move to, for a permanent move - got four buddies all settled and happy there.

Some people just have a bad experience and come back, some regret it.

A "friend of a friend" left for the Aus in the late 90's, with his young family, got a great job, bought a house, but then his wife got homesick for SA, so they returned in 2004. They all realised they'd made a massive mistake and soon went back to the Aus - different strokes for different folks.

Many Saffas try Australia, but don't give it enough time - after a year they return and usually end up regretting it.

I'm talking of the more wealthy people, used to the "good life" - they find it hard to adjust to a life where you do all your own cleaning, gardening etc. and where people just like you collect the trash and dig the roads.

The downside to moving overseas is a drop in the materialistic quality of life, but not neccessarily the actual quality of it.

Would you sacrifice a 4 bedroom house, with a huge garden, swimming pool and tennis court for something half or quarter of the size, that costs 5 times more? Sacrifice that for safety?

I can tell you now and many will agree, it's a struggle to resettle even as a single person - as a family, OMG, it's tough, or so I've heard from friends. Lots of depression initially, a feeling of helplessness because you just can't "click" - everything is strange, nobody really wants to give you a chance - you have to prove yourself first. Get over that step and your sorted.

I think of my parents who uprooted themselves from the UK to come to South Africa in 1976, when I was 8 - what a massive upheaval that really was - and then they went and returned in 1979, dragging me and my brother with - and guess what ? - we came back to South Africa in 1981 - man, it really scr3wed with my head changing school all the time.

Ever since then, I've had itchy feet syndrome.

I remember "the good old days" in SA - great if you where white. We would go barefoot everywhere around our neighbourhood on our bikes, down to the river, into the veldt - fantastic - blisfully unaware of the trouble bubbling under the surface.

Growing up and going on holiday into the bush and to wild places, like Kosi Bay - oh man, what bliss, what fantastic experiences. Spending time on farms, or in the Drakensburg or the Cape - can't match that, you really can't.

Heck, and Josi back in the late 80's / early 90's - what a time to be around there, when change was in the air and there was a positive charge about, culminating in SA winning the rugby world cup in '95 - life was good, the country was changing, business was growing and opportunities were massive.

And then - well, then the crime made it's move from the townships into the suburbs, as people from all over sub-saharan Africa made thier way down to the "promised land", the "city of gold", the fledgling government inherited an infrastructure designed to accommodate the privileged few and were ill equipped to deal with the new challenges, totally untrained in running a country.

Things went well for a time, but AIDS got out of control along with crime, the culture of corruption inherited from the previous regime became rampant and BEE started to get ridiculous - "window dressing" and nepotism was the order of the day.

There are glimmers of hope always in South Africa and I like to believe that the positive will eventually prevail, but like much of it's history, South Africa remains on the edge - it just became a little too edgy for me ;)

[TonyA]

Good Post BB

[DigitalSoldier]

good post matt even though most of ur post sounds like a fantasy to me up until the last part where u mention the crime

[BTTB]

Good Post BB.

Seems SA will always be your home wherever you are?

[ajak]

I'd say Australia is the best place for Saffas to move to, for a permanent move - got four buddies all settled and happy there.

Some people just have a bad experience and come back, some regret it.

A "friend of a friend" left for the Aus in the late 90's, with his young family, got a great job, bought a house, but then his wife got homesick for SA, so they returned in 2004. They all realised they'd made a massive mistake and soon went back to the Aus - different strokes for different folks.

Many Saffas try Australia, but don't give it enough time - after a year they return and usually end up regretting it.

I'm talking of the more wealthy people, used to the "good life" - they find it hard to adjust to a life where you do all your own cleaning, gardening etc. and where people just like you collect the trash and dig the roads.

The downside to moving overseas is a drop in the materialistic quality of life, but not neccessarily the actual quality of it.

Would you sacrifice a 4 bedroom house, with a huge garden, swimming pool and tennis court for something half or quarter of the size, that costs 5 times more? Sacrifice that for safety?

I can tell you now and many will agree, it's a struggle to resettle even as a single person - as a family, OMG, it's tough, or so I've heard from friends. Lots of depression initially, a feeling of helplessness because you just can't "click" - everything is strange, nobody really wants to give you a chance - you have to prove yourself first. Get over that step and your sorted.

I think of my parents who uprooted themselves from the UK to come to South Africa in 1976, when I was 8 - what a massive upheaval that really was - and then they went and returned in 1979, dragging me and my brother with - and guess what ? - we came back to South Africa in 1981 - man, it really scr3wed with my head changing school all the time.

Ever since then, I've had itchy feet syndrome.

I remember "the good old days" in SA - great if you where white. We would go barefoot everywhere around our neighbourhood on our bikes, down to the river, into the veldt - fantastic - blisfully unaware of the trouble bubbling under the surface.

Growing up and going on holiday into the bush and to wild places, like Kosi Bay - oh man, what bliss, what fantastic experiences. Spending time on farms, or in the Drakensburg or the Cape - can't match that, you really can't.

Heck, and Josi back in the late 80's / early 90's - what a time to be around there, when change was in the air and there was a positive charge about, culminating in SA winning the rugby world cup in '95 - life was good, the country was changing, business was growing and opportunities were massive.

And then - well, then the crime made it's move from the townships into the suburbs, as people from all over sub-saharan Africa made thier way down to the "promised land", the "city of gold", the fledgling government inherited an infrastructure designed to accommodate the privileged few and were ill equipped to deal with the new challenges, totally untrained in running a country.

Things went well for a time, but AIDS got out of control along with crime, the culture of corruption inherited from the previous regime became rampant and BEE started to get ridiculous - "window dressing" and nepotism was the order of the day.

There are glimmers of hope always in South Africa and I like to believe that the positive will eventually prevail, but like much of it's history, South Africa remains on the edge - it just became a little too edgy for me ;)
I`m so glad things are going well for you.My kids are in the US.

[nocilah]

i love it when south africans say i will leave when things get bad.

how bad must they get? We hear daily of mothers being raped, children being killed, friends being hijacked. This country has NOT improved. Look at the poll of this forum. People are leaving or wanting to leave because this country is turning into another african ****hole.

go visit the current news section in MYadsl. Hell... watch the freaking news at night and find upliftnig story.

I read a forumites sincerly honest post about why he left to go to UK and you know what it's spot on.

Dont think this country is going to get better because since 1994 things have gotten steadily worse.

I just read the post AJAX posted on sunnyside in pretoria. Hell 7 years ago my brother lived there. It was a nice neighborhood. But now the animals have arrived and everything they seem to touch turns to hatred and violence.

This country has had it. Do you think this in over reaction? Well ask your self that when you make sure your doors are locked tonight.

[TonyA]

Yes but is it only SA? Some news feeds indicate that the same happens in other lands eg USA, UK, Aus etc. In fact Aus has just indicated that Army had to be brought in some town south of Darwin due to gang violence!

[werner]

I just read the post AJAX posted on sunnyside in pretoria. Hell 7 years ago my brother lived there. It was a nice neighborhood. But now the animals have arrived and everything they seem to touch turns to hatred and violence.


dont even joke...my mom still lives in sunnyside. I'm helpless far far away...
thanks guys, your soccer match is sooo fsking important, isnt it.

crime is available in all countries, in all amounts. but i will say this, s.a. crime has victims...people who bleed and die. most crimes i have seen in other countries are victimless...sure, your house gets broken into, but you arent there...the insurance coughs up, who cares...
in s.a. they break in at night and kill you...fancy that. or kill you and take your car. a human life has no value in s.a.

staying in s.a. may be a noble thing to do, but dying for your country for stupid reasons doesnt make you a martyr, it makes you thick in the head. if you have the means, then leave. period. staying isnt an option.
if you think staying around is cool, then just wait till somebody you know and love gets killed, knowing that leaving s.a. may have avoided that situation...now go live with that guilt. as a father, I took the wise option. I love s.a. to death, but "my" s.a. that i remember was the post 94 euphoria up to the 1997 "get the fsck out of here" danger signs. what is left there now, in the far south of the globe, you may all gladly keep, ruin, and plunder till there is nothing left.

but hey, blokes, dont be worried, at least you got beer, biltong, rugby and sunshine. so that means everything is alright.

wake up, the fun is over. look out for each other, and if that means starting somewhere fresh then so be it. times have moved on.

[nivek]

atleast they were able to use their army :P our army would be useless against gangsters as their probably either too scared or members of the gangs themselves ;P

rainynight65 : yeah, all countries have homeless people.. But SA has millions.. and you CANNOT compare the unemployment rate in SA to Germany !

[TonyA]

True

[Vio]

How much does it cost too relocate too Australia or the UK if you qualify for immegration?

I'm mainly asking the ppl who have done it or who have friends/family who have done it?

Inshort how much money do I need in my bank?

[Velvet-Dreams]

Even internet better there! and wanna go to Ireland, Sa Suks

[werner]

How much does it cost too relocate too Australia or the UK if you qualify for immegration?

I'm mainly asking the ppl who have done it or who have friends/family who have done it?

Inshort how much money do I need in my bank?

no easy answer, depends on your needs (dependants?) and your age (youngsters can sleep a bit rougher than us ou toppies).

That said, my wife and I came to London bearing with us one suitcase of stuff and £180. A bit risky, but we pulled it off.
It can be done if you are motivated enough. I would say £2k and you can relax and do it easily. Get a job, rent a house etc and be starting your new life in around 2 weeks.

[nocilah]

Yes but is it only SA? Some news feeds indicate that the same happens in other lands eg USA, UK, Aus etc. In fact Aus has just indicated that Army had to be brought in some town south of Darwin due to gang violence!

sure... but this isnt about another country... this about this country and how things are spiralling out of control, and not isolated incidents either.

i tell friends online in Australia, US (yup i have peopel there), Europe about hijackings, people being raped and robbed and they recoil in disbelief and horror.

It happens everywhere in the world, but here it happens more often then not and appears to have gotten worse where goverment is saying it is improving?

and yes... in australia their goverment sends the army to sort out gang violence... what exactly is our goverment doing?

[ettubrute]

what exactly is our goverment doing?
Sleeping and eating donuts! :p

[dghough91]

:D Now who's racist? or why Perth!

I meant a South African city that's completely white :P

Re: immigration, it all depends, our applications took 3 years to process, half way through someone cancelled it (for no apparent reason) and we had to re-open it again, just when we were about to give up we received a call "your visas have arrived".

[-toady-]

bb_matts memories of an earlier life fantasy? No twas absolutely wonderful... i remember often weekends riding in the early morning mist along fire breaks through wattle plantations... galloping up the golf course at the Drankensberg Gds hotel (long since disallowed haha). Just being free to hang out anywhere you wanted without fear.
Its still out there - all the beauty of this country... ive got to go back to education, education. For EVERYONE to be able to appreciate all that we have here and to work together to make it accessible without fear.

CacklinToad :D

[telkomsuig]

How much does it cost too relocate too Australia or the UK if you qualify for immegration?

I'm mainly asking the ppl who have done it or who have friends/family who have done it?

Inshort how much money do I need in my bank?

Have a look at www.immi.gov.au for the visa costs and points requirements for australia.

The UK has a similar site for the HSMP program just can't remember the site.

BTW Canada has become very difficult to move to in recent years...

[mccrack]

Have a look at www.immi.gov.au for the visa costs and points requirements for australia.

The UK has a similar site for the HSMP program just can't remember the site.

BTW Canada has become very difficult to move to in recent years...

Just google UK HSMP.

Point system isn't bad, if you got a degree you get plenty points, much like any other country.

Going to be doing my degree through UNISA and hopefully that'll open up some doors.

[bb_matt]

You can do it another way - a bit risky, but lots of people do it.

You go to Australia as a tourist, go for interviews, if you get lucky, you leave the country for seven days, buy yourself a working visa and re-enter the country on that visa.

The company who hires you obviously is instrumental in assisting you to get the visa and may even pay for it, if they want your skills badly enough.

Bear in mind, you need to have the type of experience that companies are looking at and of course, that is in short supply in Australia. Currently, there's an IT shortage.

This is a risk, but it's how my good buddy Pete did it, he's now been there for 6 years and recently got his citizenship. He reckons lots of South Africans do it this way, bypassing the extremely expensive and difficult points system.

It's not illegal, but is frowned upon by the authorities, for obvious reasons - there's no guarantee that they won't put an end to this practice, however, I reckon it's heavily dependent on how much they want what you have to offer.

[telkomsuig]

The nice thing about going to AUS using the point system. You can theoretically become a citizen in two years. By far the shortest time frame of all the countries available.

[zesto]

Agreed!!, IBM alone is currently taking over 30 SAP boxes from Europe with their new outsource drive.

Try over 180 SAP Systems from Nordic countries for my department alone, and thats just SAP, we wont even mention Windows, AIX, Mainframe..etc..etc..

[Claymore]

We're doing network admin for companies all over the world...getting plenty of work outsourced to SA.

[bwana]

Pretty much everywhere is tightening up on immigration - many places unless you have skills that are in high demand you face the real possibility of rejection.

It used to be that South Africans were considered as being hard workers with a good work ethos but nowadays everyone's having to work hard so it doesnt carry the weight it used to.

Best of luck to you all, especially when I recall all the hoops I had to jump through to move here.

[neio]

Try over 180 SAP Systems from Nordic countries for my department alone, and thats just SAP, we wont even mention Windows, AIX, Mainframe..etc..etc.. Not sure where everyone thats leaving for the UK and the rest of Europe is going to work, huh "neio" :D

Lol, are you looking for Basis people?

[Singu]

[QUOTE=rainynight65]Who are you to judge me? I was born in Germany, I lived there for 27 years, and I probably know more people there than you. I never said crime wasn't an issue, although I probably live in one of the less problematic areas in ZA. You keep going on about the crime, as if the absence of crime made Europe a better place.


Sigh rainynight, I was not judging you. If thats how I came across I apologize.

I was saying what other ppl have said now before this reply to you. SA crime is NOT to be compared with that of Europe or most other countries. Most crimes here are violent. You dont just get robbed, you get assaulted or in many cases killed. I can give personal examples of people I know. And the sad fact? So can most South Africans. How many of the people do you know in Germany thats been affected by violent crime? Be honest. I m talking rape, assault, murder. Tell me? How many do you personally know. Friends and relatives? My parents for one, 3 of my very close frieds for another. The one twice in 2 weeks.

So please dont try and talk to me about how bad crime is in Germany. Its not the same. Its not even close. That is not the only reason im leaving, it is one of the important ones though. I know there is no such thing as Utopia. But I just believe taking everything into account SA is not one of the better places to be. And unfortunatly the facts are on my side.

[rainynight65]

Singu, I never said that crime in Germany was as bad as here. I know that. I am just saying that the absence of crime does not necessarily make Europe a better place. As you said yourself, Utopia doesn't exist. Europe is stagnating, has been for years, and many countries already have an excessive number of immigrants, especially Britain, France and Germany. Now what good is it to have no crime around when you also have nothing else? As I said, there may be some people lucky enough to get onto rails there, but that's not the average.

[pupa]

Singu, I never said that crime in Germany was as bad as here. I know that. I am just saying that the absence of crime does not necessarily make Europe a better place. As you said yourself, Utopia doesn't exist. Europe is stagnating, has been for years, and many countries already have an excessive number of immigrants, especially Britain, France and Germany. Now what good is it to have no crime around when you also have nothing else? As I said, there may be some people lucky enough to get onto rails there, but that's not the average.
Tell us what South Africa has that you cannot find in or around Europe or within quick travel time and distance?

[kingmonty]

Mmm, if I were left with the choice: crime + develop or no crime + stagnate in development... mmm, no brainer, I'll take the no crime scenario any day. However, this really is flawed though isn't it? Crime does not lead to development. Other issues in Europe are leading to stagnation at the moment - but these phases tend to be temporary, and lets face it - this will change at the dawn of a new world war. The problem is here there is less and less development because crime pays. Criminals choose crime, even though they could probably land jobs if they really tried hard enough, because it pays them to. As some of you know, I did some research wrt CIT heists, and we found some rather upsetting statistics during this process: 1) CIT heists are often committed by full time employed people. 2) The spoils of CIT heists when divided amongst everyone involved was more than most South Africans earned in six months to a year. Crime is paying these people extremely handsomely.

Anyway, my point is that you cannot compare European problems with South African problems - they're not in the same category and certainly not of the same genus.

[mccrack]

JOYOUS NEWS

For me @ least.

Mine and my GF's UK working VISA's was cleared today .....

WOOT!

/me breathes a sigh of relief

[dghough91]

JOYOUS NEWS

For me @ least.

Mine and my GF's UK working VISA's was cleared today .....

WOOT!

/me breathes a sigh of relief


Hope you enjoy it ;)

[mccrack]

Ta,

Now it's a different kind of stress. Now it's real.

[werner]

mccrack. congrats dude! just give it a chance though before making your opinion. A week isnt enough to get to learn the place:-)

[DigitalSoldier]

congrats + goodluck mccrack i also want to travel just want to finish studying first

[mccrack]

Thanks all.

Going to be studying through UNISA during that time anyway so hopefully everything pans out :D

/me apologises taking thread off topic :D

[DigitalSoldier]

Also studying through UNISA but I have to work to pay for my studies so I cant just leave for another country

[Eurotrash]

I'm a student from Europe looking to live in SA for a couple of semesters.
Speaking of crime and such, is there much crime in the Cape Town area, any hijackings to be worried about? I'm going to live in Stellenbosch (30 minutes away from the kaapstad) though, and I've heard it's a pretty safe place.

Where I personally come from there is so little crime you can leave the keys in your car at night and never have to worry. Ofcourse I wouldn't expect that of any kind of big city. ;)

[Person]

Already out... now living in Boston USA as of the 21st of this month. T3 here i come baby.

[mccrack]

@EuroTrash,

There is places that you dont dwell in for too long, i imagine this too be true of any place.

Dont go walking around CPT CBD on your own in the middle of the night, and dont get lost on the mountain :D

[vespax]

I have been following this conversation and thought I would chime in. I don't write any of this to shun SA, I am just stating my observations. I welcome debate on it though.

I am an american who has lived in Cape Town for the past year. I came here partly to get away from the politics of America, partly to persue a graduate degree and partly to live much closer to my wifes family for a couple of years. When I came I decided to have a very open mind to the possibility of staying long term (you know, because it is amazing here in many ways). But this past year has made me reconsider. I'll explain why.

*We did not have a car for a few months when we first arrived. So we would minibus taxi it around CT to get where we needed to go. Although you get there, the security isn't the best (I still use them though now) but I have had my cell phone lifted and harrassed at taxi ranks. (in south america, they are much nicer on 'public' transit and just as poor)

*We live in a nice part of town but we still get bothered by people outside our door. We didn't have a security gate around the townhouse for months, and people would constantly knock on our door at night begging. Normally that is fine and I can give a sandwich or an apple, but when you read in the local paper (constantiaberg bulletin) that elderly people are being tied up and killed in their homes at 10am, it makes you a little extra careful about peeking out the window. We now have a nice metal gate around the front. But I don't like locking myself behind 3 barriers everytime I'm in the house.

*We have had a couple of attempted breakins within the year between myself and the neighbor. And a couple successful breakins on the street since I moved in.

*I don't like waking up at 3am to the house alarm going off and needing to check to make sure no one with a gun is standing in my backyard. (read: Not a pleasant nights sleep! ;)

*I have been mugged and my life threatened a few times just for walking down the street in CT. (Thank goodness for a McDonalds that one day in November!)

*Local mall (Maynard Mall) within the past month has seen a couple of gang stabbings both inside and outside on the street and there was a shooting this week in front of Woolworths on Monday. May drive more to Constantia Village for shopping now instead of walking to Maynard.

* I like to hike and geocache (www.geocaching.com) a lot and thus go out in the mountains often alone. I probably shouldn't as much as I do, but I can't live trapped inside my own 'prison.' So I constantly have to look around for bergies or tough youths while going for a cache either in the mountains or the urban open spaces. I have been scared many times both in CT and PE. gets the heart beat up, you know!

*I figure things cost atleast 20% more here. And the pay is lower. So all in all it is harder to live comfortably compared to overseas. ie: we sold our '00 VW Golf in the states and for the money we got we bought a '98 Mazda Midge (which sucks in comparison). So you have to ask yourself, is it worth it. the trade offs that is.

*I would struggle to buy a home in SA. Interest rates are high, homes are inflated in price, and I would still feel trapped inside it. In the states you can buy a house while almost not having a decent job.

* as I type this, the neighbors alarm goes off and an ADT guy shows up just to check on the situation. 7:48am.......

I could go on and on, but you all know the situation. My point is there are some great things about south africa that I completely love. The countryside, the city dynamic, restuarants, friends that we have made (surprisingly, we have found it easy to make friends in CT!) etc. etc. etc....

But do these things outweighs others that I have listed? I am torn on it. But news stories of security guards throwing passenger off trains and Zuma dancing around in the streets is not making SA look more and more appealing as it ought to be. There is huge potential here, but I fear it is being drained out by Gov't and elite business and not being re-invested into the decaying infrastructure. I fear I am witness to the decay of a good nation. But I have my escape key, my little blue book, if it comes to that.

[telkomsuig]

I agree with alot of the observations you made. The only thing I will disagree with is cost of living. Salaries in highly marketable professions are quite high here compared to many parts of the world (with the notable exception of the states and UK). Comparing housing prices in Boston where I lived for bit to here we still have it quite good here.

I am looking emigrate in the next year or so probably to Australia and I will certainly have to take a pay cut and cut in living standard.

[ipodmusicman]

If I was to leave SA, it would be mostly for the wrong reasons
- lack of affordable broadband
- lack of variety, choice and convinience when it comes to purchasing electronics, may it be online or not.
- there is never a big enough market for anything. Good evidence of that is the lack of push to get satellite radio heavily into the consumer market - like XM and Sirius Sat in the USA.
- lack of good public transport - i'll use it in a heartbeat if i could.
- high car prices
- high interest rates
- lack of urgency in government to get things done! always takes a couple of years instead of a couple of days. good example is our telecoms situation, public transport, actually getting down to fight crime, etc.

But I must say, I'm glad that I am in a position to leave if I have to - nice to have an escape route.

[schitz011]

JOYOUS NEWS

For me @ least.

Mine and my GF's UK working VISA's was cleared today .....

WOOT!

/me breathes a sigh of relief

Good stuff, have fun, take time to see the country as a whole and don't forget that London is'nt the be all and end all of the UK..

Also don't pack a Saffa rugby jersey and expect to the only person in the UK with one! :D

Also, don't try and compare everything with things here. Just enjoy the experience and if you can, stay clear of other saffas when you first get over there and form your own opinons about the place. Granted this is actually quite hard given the amount of Saffas over there!

[Chris]

Already out... now living in Boston USA as of the 21st of this month. T3 here i come baby.

How can you be in NYC and Boston at the same time?

[vespax]

I agree with alot of the observations you made. The only thing I will disagree with is cost of living. Salaries in highly marketable professions are quite high here compared to many parts of the world (with the notable exception of the states and UK).

I agree if you are in the right profession than you make bank here, otherwise you don't. My wife works in social work(ie:not highly marketable despite all the problems), and gets paid less than a third of what she used to make in the states and struggled for months to find the job here. If it wasn't for us using US$$$ to subsidize our living here (I am a full-time student) then we would be in bad shape. The option to buy a house/flat now here is nill, in the states we could buy a house and car while both being students and working part-time.

So what I am suggesting is that there are difficulties here for people starting out that are not as high in other places. We lived in Princeton, NJ (very rich educated people with lots of high property prices) but we could live very comfortably there just leaving university. I don't envision that in CT.

Here people struggle to find work, then buy a car, then a house, etc.... Perhaps that is why so many young people leave for more money overseas with the hopes of coming back with savings to start a life with. Maybe.

Sorry to sound negative, but it is how I see it right now.:(

[ettubrute]

Yeah well, the biggest negative about the USA is getting in! Unbelievably strict rules there... so, it being easier to live there doesn't really matter to most people here!

[icyrus]

Yeah well, the biggest negative about the USA is getting in! Unbelievably strict rules there... so, it being easier to live there doesn't really matter to most people here!

Excellent point. I would have left already if I could.

[telkomsuig]

enter the visa lottery and hold thumbs :)

[.geek]

Hi Super Chocolate Bear, its hammertime from CSS!

Were/are you quite a shotgun fan? That nick sounds familiar.. :D

[bwana]

enter the visa lottery and hold thumbs :)As good a way as any.

My ex wife tried to claim we were still married - regret to say I was unwilling to cooberate her story. :D

[bwana]

Anyone know how hard it is to get into Canada? I have heard once you get there it is much easier to get into the States?No difference. If you're South African you're South African - the country you're living in when you apply is largely irrelevant.

I reckon ppl should start applying as refugees or persecuted people.

[ettubrute]

And if you have an EU passport as well? Still that difficult?

[bwana]

And if you have an EU passport as well? Still that difficult?Yeah - AFAIK it doesnt make much of a difference.

[ettubrute]

Oh well... Suppose Europe isn't so bad... Just so overcrowded!

[telkomsuig]

Yeah - AFAIK it doesnt make much of a difference.

No difference except if you work for a multi national in the EU then there is a special visa class if you go and work for your company in the states.

L (inter company transfer) and J visas are available to all nationals who meet the requirements. I went on a L visa and it was the easiest visa I applied for in my life was in and out of the embassy in 10 mins.

[Peter7]

Going back to the US on the H1B visa, with my family. Starting the PERM (greencard) paperwork through employment at the same time.

Worked there 2 years came back, got married and now planning on emigrating with my family. All of the reasons already mentioned (especially telecoms and car prices) and some.

[vespax]

I went through immigration with my wife in the states. It isn't impossible. Lots and lots of unskilled people do it. I am sure if someone with some skills and some assests behind them tried it, it wouldn't be so bad. Just time consuming. Not unlike Home Affairs here!

Tip: Move someplace less populated. You will be surprised how much faster the process goes when there are less people before you in line. ;)

I am not advocating America though for all. I left because I was bored with it, etc, etc, etc....

[zerofocus]

I went through immigration with my wife in the states. It isn't impossible. Lots and lots of unskilled people do it. I am sure if someone with some skills and some assests behind them tried it, it wouldn't be so bad. Just time consuming. Not unlike Home Affairs here!

Tip: Move someplace less populated. You will be surprised how much faster the process goes when there are less people before you in line. ;)

I am not advocating America though for all. I left because I was bored with it, etc, etc, etc....

And you came to South Africa?!?!? Chuck, is that you?

[DigitalSoldier]

And you came to South Africa?!?!? Chuck, is that you?


ROFL

[lewstherin]

Hi peeps

Well I'm one of the "I've already left" votes in the poll above. Moved over to Perth at beginning of 2006.

My wife and I came over on holiday in October last year and Australia just blew our minds. We always knew that living in SA was making us de-sensitised to the rampant crime, inefficiency and corruption, but seeing a 1st world country firsthand really brought it all home.
I wasn't really planning on getting over so quickly, but I applied for a job while on holiday - more to get a feel for the process in Aus - and ended up getting offered a work visa and job.

So I've been here 5 months and its been probably the hardest 5 months of my life in many ways.
We have no family here - a few 'friends of the family' is about it - and have missed our loved ones terribly. In terms of work, I've taken a few steps backward from the company and job I loved in SA, and its been frustrating working below my real capacity. We've also landed in the middle of a housing market frenzy in Perth, so basically we've sat and watched house prices go from expensive to ridiculous. Perth used to be one of the cheaper cities for property, but the mining boom here has pushed Perth into being the 3rd most expensive city in Aus. Doing our own house and garden work definitely sucks.

But even though it has been tough, everytime we consider going back to SA, back to family, my great job and nice house, we watch the Aussie news or go for a walk in one of the clean, safe, beautifully maintained, numerous parks here.

Australian news is really funny for a Saffa to watch because its so devoid of crime stories they have to get their sensational stories out of other stuff like last night's one: a 100 year old pensioner that still drives!

Make no mistake, people get murdered in Aus, people get mugged, raped, bashed, shot...the lot.
The difference is the incredibly small number of these incidents - one night of SA news will probably be enough for 3-4 weeks of news in Aussie. And even then, the violent and often heinous nature of SA crime is just so rare here its unreal. In December before I left, I remember a spate of child rape and murders being reported in Cape Town. Thus far, I have yet to see one report of such a crime here - the child deaths that have happened here were either bashed (gangs) or run over accidentally.

Of course there's the Aussie lifestyle as well. There isn't that constant fear of loss and injury that pervades SA life - we finally feel safe at night, in our car, in the city, wherever.
Stuff just works here too:
- My phone and broadband (1.5mb becoming 24mb in a few months time) was connected and working in 2 days.
- Electricity and water accounts connected and working in 1 day.
- Converted my SA drivers licence to an Australian one by queueing for 2 minutes, writing a 20 minute computer test and received it in 2 days.
- I catch a train to work everyday, its been late 6 times in the past 5 months.
- Rental agency has fixed wall and plumbing problems at my current residence within 2 days of my reporting them.

In the end, Australia to me is everything SA could be....the problem is whether SA ever will be as good as Aus and when.
I wasn't prepared to wait and see.

Leaving SA is never going to be for everyone, but if you are going to move make sure you do it armed with as much information as possible so that you know what to expect. The people I know of that have gone back to SA have generally come over expecting Aus to be way more than it actually is.

[bwana]

In the end, Australia to me is everything SA could be....the problem is whether SA ever will be as good as Aus and when.
I wasn't prepared to wait and see.Unfortunately SA will never be anything other than African. Lethargy, apathy, and plain simple ignorance are taking their toll.

[pupa]

Hi peeps

Well I'm one of the "I've already left" votes in the poll above. Moved over to Perth at beginning of 2006.


Australian news is really funny for a Saffa to watch because its so devoid of crime stories they have to get their sensational stories out of other stuff like last night's one: a 100 year old pensioner that still drives!


Here it will make news when he's car is hijacked and at the same time they assaulted him, The middle page that is! South Africa 55 murders/day rape, theft, Serious Assault not even featuring unless its a foreigner or well know person or the incident was extremely EXTRA violent!

They do have Apartheid in Australia, so why is it those crimes are not so violent, as here the idiots claim it is due to Apartheid, IMHO its in the genes, no other explanation!

[neio]

You gene theory is going to get this thread locked, please lets not make this a racial slagging fest.

[sludge]

Here it will make news when he's car is hijacked and at the same time they assaulted him, The middle page that is! South Africa 55 murders/day rape, theft, Serious Assault not even featuring unless its a foreigner or well know person or the incident was extremely EXTRA violent!


Erm... 55 REPORTED murderds a day.... Real figure is probs something like 75 per day.. :mad:
It is truly sad...

Is it worth risking your life just to stay in SA?

[telkomsuig]

It's a difficult choice.... but I think it is easier to adjust and go before you have a family and get too settled here. After the age of 30 the points system in austrlia starts to penalise you probably because you have greater difficulty adjusting.

[pupa]

You gene theory is going to get this thread locked, please lets not make this a racial slagging fest.
Facts is facts! live with it!

[neio]

Facts are facts yes. The fact is racial gene theory's get threads locked and this is not the thread to discuss it in.
Open another thread with it as your thread heading.
I'll even take part in the discussion. :)

[antowan]

If I was to leave SA, it would be mostly for the wrong reasons
- lack of affordable broadband
- lack of variety, choice and convinience when it comes to purchasing electronics, may it be online or not.
- there is never a big enough market for anything. Good evidence of that is the lack of push to get satellite radio heavily into the consumer market - like XM and Sirius Sat in the USA.
- lack of good public transport - i'll use it in a heartbeat if i could.
- high car prices
- high interest rates
- lack of urgency in government to get things done! always takes a couple of years instead of a couple of days. good example is our telecoms situation, public transport, actually getting down to fight crime, etc.

But I must say, I'm glad that I am in a position to leave if I have to - nice to have an escape route.

And these are wrong reasons, why? :confused:

[DigitalSoldier]

that looks like most of the reasons to leave south africa except crime doesnt bother me that much anymore because im used to it like many other people and i havent been in a violent crime situation yet reason i wanne leave is because of bad governance everytime it feels like something is getting done a new news article makes headlines about the anc going to take make another stupid step in the wrong direction

[pupa]

Facts are facts yes. The fact is racial gene theory's get threads locked and this is not the thread to discuss it in.
Open another thread with it as your thread heading.
I'll even take part in the discussion. :)

Well it belongs here as that is one of the reasons why I want to leave South Africa. I am sure there is many others too! Crime and the reasons behind the crime!

[zesto]

Answered yes in the poll, i will be leaving as soon as i have my SAP Certification. My girlfriend is finishing her last year with UNISA so it should work out pretty good. I would love for my company to transfer me to the UK but well see how it goes. Just cant take the sh*t we have to put up with and have come to accept in SA. Its crazy, this is not what life is about, all the reasons stated in this thread and then some. And yes i do think that more choices, cheap broadband and access to technology are reason enough to leave!! It seems like london is the current mecca for IT people at the moment, at least it would be a good choice for a while anyway, then i would move to another area of the UK or Europe. I actually like the hustle and bustle of london! As soon as i've set myself up here im off, good thing i kept my British passport. I would advise any young or skilled person in South Africa to leave for the UK, US or Europe there is alot more to life than what we are becoming used to here!!! My 2cents worth...

[mR HeAd]

Reading this thread, and seeing the poll results makes me very very sad. I can't beleive that so many people actually can't be positive about this country. It's the best country I been to, and am so glad that I live here. I've been all over the world, but whenever I come back to South Africa I always feel happy because I prefer it to anywhere.

I just don't understand why people can't be positive about South Africa and stand by the country while it sorts out it's problems, instead of abandoning it! It's the most cowardly thing I can think of. I don't know if it's the business/tech population of South Africa that have this ideology, because this seems to be the general feeling on this forum, but i still can't accept that people can find it so easy to just emigrate from this amazing country!

Maybe South Africa is better off without the kind of people who are so negative about this country, because i know that the positive people are actually making a difference, and i know that South Africa is becoming an incredible place. Just look back ten years, and think of where we were and were we are now, for those of you who criticise the government. Why do you think South Africa is the most prosperous and most economically powerful in Africa. Stop comparing us to 1st world countries because we are not, we don't have a settled economy like England or USA.

I can't believe so many people have no pride in where they were born and can so easily leave. It's beyond me.

[telkomsuig]

@mR HeAd you probably have a UK/EU passport in your back pocket. I would also be positive if I knew should Zim happen here I am on the next plane back to the old country..

[pupa]

I just don't understand why people can't be positive about South Africa and stand by the country while it sorts out it's problems, instead of abandoning it! It's the most cowardly thing I can think of.
Wait till you end as one of the statistics of crime. You already are a statistic of the corruption and exploitation as you past here and use TELKOM. Only a fool can say what you just did as for one South Africa is not sorting out its problems. The problems become more by the day. This GVT assists the problems with their foolishness and foolhardy actions and laws. Obviously you must be in an situation where it does not effect you therefore this soft story. Patriotism will bring you nowhere as look at all the patriots that have gained nothing! The economy is doing well, its all in the fat cats pockets while millions are without. In the Parliament they had it that less "houses" get build for the poor per year for an ever increasing (Booming corruption) budget. That is about 20000 per year. Not enough by far just a bluff! Wait till the world donations and freebies dry up then You will sing another song. Where is Mbeki, off to UK to go and hold his hand for another freebie while he lays in bed with Cuba, and the other anti western regimes! Thus do not come tell us here how good life is, it yours say it to the millions that reach for crime to exist! So spare us your tears and get a passport to be ready for the inevitable. Max exodus like Zim and other north. Not very long from now they will talk of the BDA, Brian Drained Africa

[mR HeAd]

I've never lived in another country, only stayed for a while.
And @telkomsuig, you are mistaken. I don't have another EU/UK passport, only South African. Don't be such an assuming git. Stop trying to put down South Africa. It's your country. I challenge you to try and be positive about South Africa for just an hour.

P.s. I have EU ancestors but I refused a Dutch passport.

[pupa]

I've never lived in another country, only stayed for a while.
And @telkomsuig, you are mistaken. I don't have another EU/UK passport, only South African. Don't be such an assuming git. Stop trying to put down South Africa. It's your country. I challenge you to try and be positive about South Africa for just an hour.

P.s. I have EU ancestors but I refused a Dutch passport.

That challenge were levied at this forum, None could offer much positives in this forum unless he is in position to talk (BRAG). Like having escape routes and have lots of money or work for the GVT. Sad but true watch your and the family's backs as you may be statistic soon. Also you cannot really speak if you are do not fall at least in these categories
Poor black citizen with little to show
Live in the desolate squatter camps
Do not work for the GVT
You are BEE/AA effected (ie small white SBE)
You have young kids 1-17 years
Are not well off and are reliant on GVT decisions re livelihood
Is a farmer
Live outside of the secure areas (enclosed with 24/7 guards and cameras)

[icyrus]

mR HeAd its great to be positive and sit in a circle and sing kumbaya, but honestly the facts are plain for everyone to see.

Most people would like to live in a country where they are not afraid all the time, where they don't have to live behind 20 foot walls and electrified fencing.

Most people would like to live in a country where the government works for the people, and realizes that to be a member of government is to serve not to rule.

I think people would also like to live in a country where they feel welcomed and part of the country. SA spends too much time discriminating and dividing its people.

And generally if your in IT, like most MyADSL members, SA is not the place to be.

[dualmeister]

mR HeAd its great to be positive and sit in a circle and sing kumbaya, but honestly the facts are plain for everyone to see.

Most people would like to live in a country where they are not afraid all the time, where they don't have to live behind 20 foot walls and electrified fencing.

Most people would like to live in a country where the government works for the people, and realizes that to be a member of government is to serve not to rule.

I think people would also like to live in a country where they feel welcomed and part of the country. SA spends too much time discriminating and dividing its people.

And generally if your in IT, like most MyADSL members, SA is not the place to be.

Well said ;)

[bb_matt]

Crime?

Well, here in the UK, I can relate first hand that I feel so much safer than back in Joburg, it's not even true.

The result?

I'm more well balanced, have lost my nasty temper, can relax, don't look over my shoulder all the time, don't have any bars on my windows or doors, or high fences, or vicious dogs, or armies of security guards.

Now, the UK has a lot of crime - after all, it's got over double the population of SA in a far smaller place, however, the degree of violent crime is way below SA even with a far larger population.

Over here, murders make headline news - and that is pretty much ANY murder.

There are some worrying trends here - knife violence and random assaults, but they are so rare, you have more chance of being hit by a car when crossing the road.

There are also lots of "no go" areas - city suburbs which you just don't want to walk into, but that's the same all over the world.

All I can say, is that I feel safer here.

On the flip side, I had to take a bit of a knock on the career ladder, but this is to be expected - UK jobs are FAR more specialised and you get pigeon holed into a role.

Now, this is why South African skilled workers were so in demand (and still are) in many places in the world - because of thier wide range of skills - in SA, people will take on many different roles, whereas here, you stick to a specialist role.

For instance, in SA, I was designing as well as developing websites, over here, I'm just developing them - I work with designers who just design them. I also work with programmers who do the backend.

But hey, I still get to wear casual clothes to work and I'm being paid in pounds - hmm, the only problem there, is that I'm being billed in pounds too :D - hehe, £260 for a small car service and new brakes, smokin! - (that's R3000)
£700 monthly rent (R8000) for a two bedroom small flat, although it's in a DAMN fine area - on the high street in a picturesque quiet hampshire town (odiham)

But hey - £20 a month for a 2mb line with 20gb soft cap (R250), so it's not all bad on the expense front.

I'm happy I left, I don't miss SA except for friends, cos' you know what?

it's a BIG world out there, with plenty of places to explore - why limit your horizons?

[mooK]

bb_matt, get rid of that crappy connection, go for Be Unlimited's 24mb product for 20quid, although it might not be available in Odiham, never even heard of the place. Anyway, I'm sure there's much better options! You don't need a cap ffs! Although to be fair, Be Unlimited's 24mbs has a 500GB cap ;)

Also, a lot of things are much cheaper in the UK, I'm surprised u're complaining about cars 'cos cars are much more expensive here in SA. I used to pay 500 quid a month for one room in a 5 bedroom house sharing with 5 others in Wimbledon. So your place sounds cheap to me! :(

[DigitalSoldier]

I just don't understand why people can't be positive about South Africa and stand by the country while it sorts out it's problems, instead of abandoning it! It's the most cowardly thing I can think of. .

Uhm no nowhere is this country/government even trying to sort out its own problems look at how the DA won the CPT elections and the anc said they will do anything in their power to get CPT back even sabotage, threatening her life etc. Unless you see "democracy" as a problem and waiting for the anc to fix that problem in CPT to get control back.

Edit: Also not even to mention our sloppy police in this country because yesterday a person broke intou our neighbours house and our neighbours got high electrical fencing and cctv they caught the criminal on camera with his face showing everying and how he is busy breaking the window and taking stuff over the wall the police looked at the tape and at the end of their reply "EISH how much does the camera cost" and that was about it then they left for the station cos our neighbours had to drive to the station to write a statement and so far nothings happened and they know exactly what the criminal looks like

[Chris]

Well when I was on holiday in the UK for two weeks I already felt safer!

- Public transport: Just bought a nice day ticket and on you go - Tube/Bus etc. The bus drivers hardly even looked at our tickets - it's trust on the UK rather than suspicion. And I hear Londoners complain about public transport!

- I'm an avid newspaper read and didn't buy any of the crappy tabloids such as the Sun but rather the Daily Telegraph (80p). Damn I got a shock - all the headlines were about the New Tory leader David Cameron rather than crime! For the first time it felt boring to read newspapers :D

- Walking along the streets and the Thames River you got an impression you were safe and not constantly looking out for yourself!

- SA tourist attractions suck [although it depends if you like UK history]. It has lovely attractions such as Warwick Castle, Tower of London, Big Ben, Greenwich Meridian (spel?) and London Eye and the long-haul trains that were quite clean and had a nice little shop to buy stuff

- Had a 2MB connection there and you see how pitiful my 512k is (ok a bit spoilt-bratish but it does emphasise a point). MyADSL opened faster than here! And downloads were going at a lovely 240KB/sec (didn't test torrents though)

[bb_matt]

bb_matt, get rid of that crappy connection, go for Be Unlimited's 24mb product for 20quid, although it might not be available in Odiham, never even heard of the place. Anyway, I'm sure there's much better options! You don't need a cap ffs! Although to be fair, Be Unlimited's 24mbs has a 500GB cap ;)

Also, a lot of things are much cheaper in the UK, I'm surprised u're complaining about cars 'cos cars are much more expensive here in SA. I used to pay 500 quid a month for one room in a 5 bedroom house sharing with 5 others in Wimbledon. So your place sounds cheap to me! :(

I'm happy with my broadband right now - the soft cap is just that, a recommended 20gb, they only get heavy on people who push that to 50gb or more, which I'll never do - download a lot of TV series as and when I need them, stream lots of music, but that's about it - I rarely go over 20gig, because there's no need.

Also, 24mb is a bit of a myth - you'll so occassionaly reach that speed - however, 4mb I may upgrade to. I went direct to source via BT and haven't had one single problem. That £20 is all inclusive of my line rental, so my actual broadband is more like £12 a month.

Cars - yep, they are cheaper, but hey, guess what?
Maintaining them isn't :D
Also petrol is dang pricey.
Insurance is also costly.

Overall, I'd say it's cheaper to own a vehicle here in the UK, but not by a lot. I also long for a stretch of road uninterrupted for more than 20 miles - hehe. And I don't mean motorways, but just a standard road.

Driving here is interesting, but frustrating too - and don't even mention parking - gaaah !

I LOVE country lanes, because they are so hair raising, zipping along tiny narrow roads with hedges on either side, with no idea what's around the next corner - good fun :D

[DigitalSoldier]

matt how much is petrol in the uk per litre ? and uk got the same cars as we do right not monster 5liter cars as the norm like america

[mooK]

Yeah, I didn't drive around UK, didn't want to, it seemed too scary! I hate narrow roads. And all that parallel parking OMG!

About the 24mb speed, it's not a myth, I had it for about 4 months. Downloading off big server websites like Microsoft.com or Fileplanet.com I used to seriously get 2MB/s. You download so fast it actually puts some stress on your hdd.

Obviously when servers can't upload to you at that speed you won't get a full 2MB/s, but with download accelerators like GetRight you can open multiple sessions and get closer to 2MB/s, also when I used to download torrents I used to have up to 20 open at a time to use as much bandwidth as possible.

One of my housemates had 2mb (200kb/s) cable internet and he used to pull 10-15gig every day easily, so you don't really need 24mb internet unless you're using IPTV or something, but it is useful if you're sharing the connection between a few people. Which was the case in my situation.

[Chris]

About the 24mb speed, it's not a myth, I had it for about 4 months. Downloading off big server websites like Microsoft.com or Fileplanet.com I used to seriously get 2MB/s. You download so fast it actually puts some stress on your hdd.

I think what he means is that 24mbps is not very widespread. You were in of the main cities in the UK right? (London or Manchester or Liverpool) and you were extremely close to the exchange <1km.

[pupa]

I LOVE country lanes, because they are so hair raising, zipping along tiny narrow roads with hedges on either side, with no idea what's around the next corner - good fun :D
Same experience here in Sweden and Germany. You are so nervous due to the narrow road and no side lanes that you barely keep on the road let alone drive fast and then someone zips past you @ 120-160Km's with Beemer or Audi, Volvo! LOL Hair raising. I suppose that what makes Europe good rally drivers, Experience daily!

[bb_matt]

Same experience here in Sweden and Germany. You are so nervous due to the narrow road and no side lanes that you barely keep on the road let alone drive fast and then someone zips past you @ 120-160Km's with Beemer or Audi, Volvo! LOL Hair raising. I suppose that what makes Europe good rally drivers, Experience daily!

Oh G0D yeah, it's damn scary.

Just driving to the shops here freaks me out still, altho I've only been driving here for 2 months. I park near the church, which has a small carpark surrounded by old houses and a pub. There are two entrances to the carpark, both just about wide enough to let two cars pass, however, there's always cars parked in one lane !

People get so used to it, they pass by you with thier wing mirrors just a few cm's from yours at high speed - crazy talk.

That's why the drink driving laws are so tough here - heck, don't worry about the cops, worry about crashing if you've had a few too many!

There's NO WAY on earth that you could afford to drive here when pickled, the roads just don't allow for it - you would almost certainly crash into something ;)

The most I'll have before driving is a single pint of beer - any more, and I won't even get in my car. Compared to SA, I would drive after 3 or 4 (max) - that's the "accepted norm" over there, in reality, SA roads are full of drunk drivers every weekend, even those who say they would never do it ;)

I've had some extremely scary moments on the road here that UK drivers would think "huh, but so what?" about.

Try this one - a cyclist riding on a road as 16 wheel trucks pass him at 100kPh and he doesn't give a damn, the trust is amazing - and that is what it's all about, trust.

Despite this, the UK road death toll is still way lower than SA, a country with huge wide roads.

I'm learning to drive in cramped spaces, but it's not easy - and don't even mention the roundabouts here. I figured I had them clocked, but made a major error today and ended up going the wrong way, because I simply could not get into the right lane due to traffic - and then took the wrong road off the island.

Easy to do, just have a look at multimap.com (http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=470000&Y=155000&width=500&height=300&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=0&out.x=4&out.y=5&scale=100000) to see how incredibly complex the UK roads really are - enough to make the average saffa, used to a nice neat grid system, cringe and cower in fear :D

[ajak]

http://users.auth.gr/~azopidou/PICTURES/images/funnypic/NoahHighSpeedTrouble.jpg

[onionpeel]

I emigrated from Cape Town in November 2005.
I now live in Auckland, by myself. My family is still in Cape Town.

The reasons I chose to leave, why I chose NZ over any other country, will not necessarily apply to other people. It's a personal decision, for reasons specific to my situation. If you want to know more, drop me a message.

There are some people who cannot or wont leave South Africa. They have their specific reasons too.

What I can say, is that for me, I should have done this move years ago. I have hardly found a negative in New Zealand worth making an issue over.
I can compare: In SA, you generally work your ass off (and I am sure a lot of you will agree) to get a good salary. In NZ, you get the same good salary (and I am talking in standard of living terms) for MUCH less effort. It is because of this, I think Kiwi's lack sustained motivation in the work environment. It may also be the reason why Australia is a big attraction, where the work ethic is more raised than in NZ, but less than in SA. A good balance you could say?
I have a blog, where, for each of the first 55 days I spent in New Zealand, I noted down my experiences. As well all know, you cannot put a price tag on experience, so when I look back on my journal one day, I will be able to relive the wonderful experience I had of leaving leaving my job of many years, leaving home and leaving South Africa, to start a new, better life for ME.

[bb_matt]

Nice post onionpeel, I like it.

What gets my goat sometimes, is that many people think that leaving SA is either a chicken run or "leaving the sinking ship" - it isn't like that AT ALL.

People leave for varying reasons - and get this - it's a MODERN part of life, in case South Africans haven't quite got the idea yet !

Take Europe, people migrate all over the place and always have done so, to find a better life, for business - whatever - it's part of LIFE.

I really get very p1ssed off when South Africans start getting all narfy about people leaving - it's so damn stupid.

Hey - welcome to the real world, a world where people move around as a matter of course, for whatever reason.

Those reasons are thier own personal ones and sure, the level of crime in SA and the whole BEE issue just adds to reasons to try live elsewhere - no big deal, it's not exactly rocket science nor is it unusual.

In fact, it's a very HUMAN thing to do, how else do you think we populated this planet ;)

[nivek]

welll my car got broken into last night, found the window smashed this morning and the face of my radio gone,

dumb bastards couldnt get the actual unit out, but they were spiteful enough to keep the face now neither of us have a working half :P

took the cops an hour and 15 mins to get there, not that, that bothers me because I know they have more important stuff than my lil incident.. anyhow when they arrived they didnt bother taking finger prints, and I didnt bother arguing with them cos their point was pretty much justified. "Why bother, 99% chance they were zimbabweans and we wont be able to track them anyway"

[captainwifi]

.... cctv they caught the criminal on camera with his face showing everying and how he is busy breaking the window and taking stuff over the wall the police looked at the tape and at the end of their reply "EISH how much does the camera cost" and that was about it then they left for the station cos our neighbours had to drive to the station to write a statement and so far nothings happened and they know exactly what the criminal looks like

So why didn't the camera have motion detection to send you a MMS via
a MMS gateway server like www.redcoal.com (not redcoal.co.uk)?
Was it a windows based setup like www.anko-tech.com Geovision software
or LInux like www.zoneminder.com?

This nonsense where people effortlessly just hop over the fence without anybody getting an immediate MMS on their cellphones would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic: THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS TO STOP THIS RUBBISH
BUT THE SECURITY COMPANIES DON'T WANT TO IMPLEMENT IT.:mad:

Do you really believe that a company like Chubb with hundreds of millions of rands in turnover are to stupid to provide their clients with a .co.za MMS gateway server? Do you think that Coin security is to backwards to employ a Linux expert to
configure www.zoneminder.com and Kodicom KMC-4400r 4-port capture cards [import them for R380/card] and link
them upto a www.roithner-laser.com high powered Infra-red Leds ?

[vrapt0r]

well theres that going to start happening with most african countries were they are leaving in larger and larger numbers

[DigitalSoldier]

So why didn't the camera have motion detection to send you a MMS via


Because I have no idea what those stuff are all about we dont have cameras its our neighbours like I have mentioned before but I do get ur point.

I am complaining because WTF do a normal house need camera's and all that security and even with all the security the cops are still useless.

[captainwifi]

Because I have no idea what those stuff are all about we dont have cameras its our neighbours like I have mentioned before but I do get ur point.


I have studied this stuff myself out of desperation. For example I knew that
getting 300m nightvision was absolutely critical - but www.eaglecctv.co.za
want's R15000 (yes three zero's) for such a 810nm Led Floodlight.
Then I realised I could build it myself for R2500 (in the 940nm range).

All very technical but as a fellow Navy Seal dropped behind enemy lines
(when van Riebeeck dumped you here in 1652 from Holland) you don't really have a choice - you must know what couter terrorism measures to take.

Sure why should you know stuff like this, security companies are supposed
to advise you. But see they don't want to stop the crime. Your ignorance will be ruthlessly exploited for their own financial gain (in other words security companies would rather post a guard infront of your house for a recurring income stream).

[onionpeel]

To add... my car doesn't have an imobiliser, it doesn't have a gear lock (people don't know what gear locks are in NZ!) and it doesn't have an alarm. It is not a throw away vehicle, a 2005 Suzuki Swift, so something which I do value! I don't lock my doors when I drive and hijackings are practically non existent. I don't have a removable face on my car audio system either.

Life has value here in NZ, unlike the humiliation and torture some people go through when they are brutally murdered in SA. Just one of a few push reasons for me - I didn't want to become another crime statistic. Getting used to it doesn't make it right. It's not the way life is meant to be, having to look over your shoulder every minute of the day.

My move to NZ was thought through. How would things have looked for me in 10 or 20 years from now, if I was still alive? What about when I am 75?
For years, I was hoping that things would get better, but unfortunately, I was met with disappointment at every turn. No hard feelings South Africa (read as ANC), you did what you had to do and I did what I had to do. There is so much potential in South Africa, but, like the biggest threat to any company, mismangement could sink it in the long term.

Good luck to all of you!

[bb_matt]

I've got a cheapo gear lock on my car, just to deter joy riders more than anything else - but I notice hardly anyone else bothers in my area - I think there's only one other person I've seen park who has a steering lock.

Insurance companies don't even ask for that kinda stuff in most areas.
In fact, I park my car in a public car park as I don't have parking where I live - can you imagine doing that in SA? - it wouldn't last the night :D

In fact, you wouldn't even get insurance if you had to park in a public area!

I've left my house doors open on a few occassions - just forgot to lock them - again, the only reason I usually bother is just in case of kids, or the very rare possibility of robbers coming down from the scummy suburbs of London for "easy pickings" in the rural areas. Happens very rarely.

Heck, if you wanted, you could probably get through my front door with one kick, it's only got a yale lock on it.

The only time I would ever feel afraid in the UK, is at a train station or on a train late at night / early hours of the morning and being confronted by drugged/drunken youths.

[DigitalSoldier]

So i take it theres no car guards in any other country asking to watch ur car at every spot u stop ? :p

[werner]

no...first i ever heard of car guards was on this forum. it is a "new south africa" thing...unique job methinks.
to add my 28c to this chat, my car (old bmw)..no alarm, no gear lock...nothing. not required for insurance. i am lucky to have a garage in london (although i live more in the suburbs) but lots of my neighbours leave their cars on the road...nothing ever happens. you would be really really shocked if something did happen. i have enquired from the insurance if i should fit an alarm etc to bring the premiums down...nope it wont. maybe my situation is unique, but that "beep beep" sound you hear from your alarm when you unlock and lock it...i havent heard it in around 6 years now. either nobody has an alarm, or nobody worries. i have a steering lock though, a "south african" knee jerk reaction to owning a car i think. i stopped using it after about 3 months. it is somewhere int he garage, but not necessary. my front door can probably blow open on a windy day, lol. but i have 100% confidence in waking up in the morning and my car is still there, and i have 100% confidence in coming home form work and all my stuff is still in the house. it took a while to come to realise this, but i now sleep easy, and can work towards my own financially secure future. without thinking somebody else is gonna help themselves to my hard-earned items.

sure, the lifestyle isnt for everybody, and my thoughts are mostly with friends in s.a. who arent so lucky. but to me it was a positive move. the healthcare is also much better here, something which i need in my life due to having an ill child.

[bb_matt]

Hmmm, no, there's ticket machines here :)

Prices vary incredibly widely, from 30p for an hour to &#163;3 an hour (R3.50 to R35) depending where you park, unless your on the ball and get some free parking (gets nabbed quickly during shopping hours)

It's a "trust" system here, you park your car, go to the ticket dispenser, decide how long you need, put your money in and get a ticket. You then go back to your car and usually put the ticket inside by the front windscreen, drivers side.

"Pay and Display" is the name for it. If you don't do that, there's a chance of a fine - and they do keep tabs on that, so cheating the system isn't worth it.

Car theft here is really more of a nuisance than anything else, hijacking is virtually unheard of - it only really happens with extenuated circumstances, such as robbers needing a getaway car, or drug-addled mad people on a mission.

No idea of the stats, but getting your car pinched here is a lot less likely than SA - the insurance company rules are testament to that. Things like tracker don't exist except for specialist markets or if you really want one, however, satellite nav systems are a big business here. You can pick up the low end units for about R600.

Because cars are cheaper here, it's not so much of a big deal - the funniest thing (unless it happens to you), is that peoples cars are forever being bumped and knocked in car parks. In the last 3 months, 3 of my work colleagues have had dings in thier cars while parked in a car park, usually it's lorries (trucks) - the roads are so cramped here, it's just a common thing.

Oh yeah, not only are there no car guards, there are also no hawkers at intersections and if there were, they would have a hard time, because 90% of intersections are controlled by roundabouts, to keep the traffic flowing.

What the UK has instead of lights, are islands and they are EVERYWHERE. If the roads aren't busy, it's a total pleasure and makes driving more interesting. But in rush hour, it's a nightmare, as people try to jockey into position to get onto the roundabout - the worst are the 3 lane ones, totally confusing for the unitiated !

Picture 4 roads joining at an circle, but also, on/offramps onto a motorway at the same time, with specific rules on which lane you should be in depending on which road you need to take outward from the island. Add into the equation that most people ignore the rules and that a lot of them are really clueless and you end up with all sorts of fun :D

[captainwifi]

Hmmm, no, there's ticket machines here :)
o idea of the stats, but getting your car pinched here is a lot less likely than SA - the insurance company rules are testament to that. Things like tracker don't exist except for specialist markets or if you really want one, however, satellite nav systems are a big business here. You can pick up the low end units for about []bR600[/b].


Use windows automation software
http://www.hiddensoft.com/AutoIt/index.php
to extract the street GPS positions from:
http://shop.veza.co.za/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=VT05S

Store this in a Sqlite or Mysql database and the moment your beloved
gets hijacked and turns into KatSonderDraai instead of Cloud-coo-coo laan
you get GPRS'd via a www.roundsolutions.com python embedded modem.

An embedded PC mini-itx with DC-DC converter as posted elsewhere hosts
the Veza software with the windows automation software checking the vehicle GPS per GPS coordinate, street for street, stored inside the dashboard. Oh, they will just smash the dashboard you tell me - then replace
the dashboard with bulletproof glas: We are at war!

And again why doesn't Tracker or Netstar explain this to anybody?
Are people to stupid to understand what I am typing?

[kingmonty]

This nonsense where people effortlessly just hop over the fence without anybody getting an immediate MMS on their cellphones would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic: THE TECHNOLOGY EXISTS TO STOP THIS RUBBISH
BUT THE SECURITY COMPANIES DON'T WANT TO IMPLEMENT IT.:mad:
*smack*

[onionpeel]

In SA, crime does pay. And possibly more so in crime prevention. There is money to be made out of other people's misfortunes.

- barbed wire
- electrified fencing
- vehicle tracking
- armed response services
- guard dogs
- armed patrols
- neighbourhood watch
- infrared interior or perimeter detection
- alarm systems
- razor wire
- (remote) controlled security gates
- intercoms
- CCTV
- burglar bars
- double driveway gates (like the double doors at the entrance to banks)

All this for residential living in SA? There is something really wrong with that picture! I don't have a single one of these for my home, don't need it. Just a standard lock on the front door and the car.

Peace of mind - without the price tag!

[ShockG]

Wow. Interesting opinions and stories. Some sad, few good and some educational. It would be good if govt officials would read such threads to see te general sentiment. Some seem to have writen out of anger, some frustration, indifference etc... Very good thread. Will definately print or rather save it for future reading etc..
5/5

ZA will get worse before it gets better. May take another 30years but it will happen if people are willing to work towards a common goal.
Esp for some of us who don't have anywhere to go.
I am from this land and belong to this land, from my bronzen colour to my locks this is my home and I have to make it work.
I, for one will do what I can no matter how insignificant. I have been on the receiving end of SAs past prejudices many times and continue to be on an almost daily basis, but that's the card SA deals many of the native folk.

Those who lived in Gugulethu, Diepkloof, Alex, Meadowlands and other townships will most likely perceive SA a little different than many here.
Crime is not really any worse, its just that it receives more attention these days. It was in the 80s when 'Tebza's mother bought him an AK47 and he was terrorizing the peole of various townships, from Pimville Zone3 to Diepkloof Zone6.
It was when I was younger when we were told not to look at Caucasian people in the eye cause that would cause trouble for our parents. It was in my lifetinme that one could not go to the only hospital that could help you, but rather had to go over 50Km away to where they would treat you.

So SA is indeed worse, but it depends on which side you stood on.

Having said that, SA govt is obviously crap and no sensible person can deny that. But the hatred that many habour towards the NP is worth tolerating the corruption and sheer evil that is the ANC.

[kilo39]

i have enquired from the insurance if i should fit an alarm etc to bring the premiums down...nope it wont. maybe my situation is unique, but that "beep beep" sound you hear from your alarm when you unlock and lock it...i havent heard it in around 6 years now Thanks for the great post werner - gives a person hope that there is still some sanity in the world.

[DigitalSoldier]

shockg well said. but the hatred for the NP isnt it the same as hatred for the white people thats why most people still vote anc after the NP died a long time ago?

Another thing crime is a lot worse now than in the 80's even though most say its because the media is having a field day but look through this forum you will see some toppies talking about walking through hillbrow in the 80's or sleeping at night with doors unlocked etc if you try and do that today you will be another statistic

And why is it such a big deal if people are leaving this country its happening all over the world but if you leave south africa you are called a coward running away

[ShockG]

Thats it right there. There was no point when in te places I mentioned you could sleep with your doors open. You always had to lock up, just that this was not the case in suburbs and the like I suppose. Having said though, it would be naive of me to say crimes have not gotten very violent now than before. Don't think theere were any infant rapes and the like in the 80s.
============================
I would never say leaving the country is running away. People have a right to live where they want to and for whatever reason. Patriotism is a right one can exercise or not exercise. That is part of what being free is. Living where you want to live.

Theres nothing cowardly about wanting to stay alive.

[DigitalSoldier]

ShockG but patriotism can only last for a while then you get fed up like I have felt a lot of times the country is busy recovering then the next day I read about a new stupid act being passed by government or something like that and then all hope dies again.

I know this country can be great like most other people also know this but first government needs to do something instead of just talking or fighting against democracy like in CPT at the moment

[disabled]

Love to leave, but with the exchange rates it makes it impossible...Roll On Lotto...

[krycor]

yeah i have to get a proper job nxt yr 1st so i can save up for flight + acomodation etc I just hope i don't get stuck here like most people do.

[DigitalSoldier]

looks like in a few years this forum can have another sub-forum for all ex south africans :D

[bb_matt]

I think there's a lot of ex-saffas overseas posting here - not a huge percentage, but enough of us. But then, in my case, it's a bit different as I was born in the UK and spent my formative years here.

I chatted with my bro on the phone today, he lives in Randburg, didn't mention anything about crime and all that - just talk of what and who and where - he had a braai with granny and grandad for little Josh (my nephew) - my brother is a braai fanatic, he loves them so much, he'll even braai by himself in the back garden !

I phoned him from a country pub called "The Queens Head" - 13000km's away from where he was sitting - after a walk down the Basingstoke canal. Wonderful day, but I missed friends and family at that point, as I was alone on my walk.

We didn't talk about SA crime - no point - he knows as well as I do that things are tricky in South Africa, I just wish I could convince him to pack up family and leave, because I worry about them. He would laugh at that, possibly. Not laugh at me worrying, but more at the the concept that violent crime is a fact of life in SA. After all, it's he, not me, who was hijacked twice in his driveway - once while carrying his son. He has more reason to leave than me.

I'm not sure how to view it anymore, I have to be careful, because I don't live there now - looking in from the outside can reveal some interesting things, but it can also skew the truth and probably paint a more bleak picture, or a more rosy picture, whichever way.

As for the black/white thing, I just got so tired of it. I figured racism was on the decline after '94 - and indeed, it seemed it was for a few years. Now it's just worse than ever - it's now state sanctioned, just like it was during aparthied. And no, it's not just black on white, it's black on black (the Sotho/Xhosa/Zulu thing), black on coloured, indian on black - I hate it.

And then the quiet diplomacy on Zimbabwe - that to me, is the most worrying aspect of life in South Africa - the ties between it and a mad dictator.

What is one to think of such a thing?
How can you have faith in a government who seems to support a failed country and a crazy leader?

All I know, is that I didn't feel welcome in SA anymore - my skin was the wrong colour ;)

Now, for better or worse, I'm back with my own people - the country where my ancestors go back thousands of years, where I found out that my surname is Anglo Saxon for tree - there's a deep feeling there. Perhaps that's how it is for the native people of Southern Africa, for surely, the white people can't lay claim to that kind of history in Africa - not a chance.

[lewstherin]

For me one of the best things about Aus is reading the job ads.
Here a job that is advertised as "equal opportunity" means that the advertiser is committed to giving every applicant a "fair go". Race is just not an issue here.

I was born in the early 1980s and really only started learning about apartheid as it ended - ie. in history class. I had no role in the perpetuation of apartheid and was against it when I realised what it was all about.
I was a top matriculant - 99% HG aggregate - and applied to 45 different organisations and companies for a university bursary. There were 3 black guys in the top 10 of my year - all had at least 5% aggregate less than me. These guys applied for some of the same bursaries and all 3 of them received grants and bursaries.
I recieved 45 "Thanks for applying, but sorry" letters. I've got nothing against those 3 black guys, but I also realised right then that merit isn't worth much in the new SA.

This experience - and others along the way - made me realise that if the SA government was so determined to marginalise intelligent people with skills because of their skin colour, then I should go somewhere that I would be valued.

I also came to hate the way racism became the favorite retaliation by politicians to criticism. So often a non-black person would make valid, logical criticisms of the ANC government only to be branded racist.

By polarising the job market with AA and quotas, the govt has entrenched discrimination as a legally accepted practice.
What I think was even worse was that I found myself considering every black professional I met with a critical eye - was this person just another window dressing incompetent, or did they actually have the skills and ability to do their job? Did I want to risk my banking, passport, medical aid, home loan with this person given they might stuff it up and stuff me in the process?

I'm really glad to be out of that environment. I'm now working in an office with people from english, chinese, slovakian, indian and even australian! origins and its great. No one here cares much about your colour or origin, they care about whether you get the job done. To me this is a freer way to live than any of my time in SA.
I'm also really happy that my kids will not have to grow up in a society where race is a clinching factor. It good to know that they will have as good a chance as any other Aussie kid at excelling in sports, school, uni, jobs and life in general.

[DigitalSoldier]

I was also born in the 80's but I was lucky to land a job after school and now Im working and also studying through unisa. Because if you look at some of the varsity requirements in south africa for some bsc subjects you require 75% in maths if you are white and only 60% if you are black. So after I am finished studying Im going over as well

[lewstherin]

One of my childhood friends wanted to become a doctor. She did really well at school and was provisionally accepted into Med school in Durban. She then got called 3 weeks later and told that because of quota requirements, she could no longer be accepted.
She ended up having to go into Micro-Biology because of that and is now on her PhD. She'll be leaving SA as soon as she's qualified.
I thought SA was short on doctors?
Obviously not if educational institutions turn away excellent candidates!

Its actually all very sad. The govt is totally bringing this on themselves, and taking their poor, uninformed masses down with them.

[icyrus]

One of my childhood friends wanted to become a doctor. She did really well at school and was provisionally accepted into Med school in Durban. She then got called 3 weeks later and told that because of quota requirements, she could no longer be accepted.
She ended up having to go into Micro-Biology because of that and is now on her PhD. She'll be leaving SA as soon as she's qualified.
I thought SA was short on doctors?
Obviously not if educational institutions turn away excellent candidates!

Its actually all very sad. The govt is totally bringing this on themselves, and taking their poor, uninformed masses down with them.

The thing that makes me laugh the most about our government is that they see all these skilled people leaving and then proceed to blame the UK and ask they they pay.

The mind boggles.

[DigitalSoldier]

LOL true that icyrus.

But they also go skill hunting for doctors and engineers in india and then we have a lot of engineers in south africa without jobs because they are white and doing jobs they are overqualified for and then the government complains about the shortage of engineers then they start and offer bursary's to black kids to study for engineering that will take about 4 years and then they need atleast 2 years experience where atm we have more than a 1000 qualified engineers with experience but they cant get a job cos of skin colour.

And there is a south african engineering website with all these statistics

[zesto]

What i would really like to know is how the people that have left SA have found the career prospects and quality of life in the countries they have moved to, in terms of career growth, opportunities and salaries??

In SA you have to work extra hard to get anywhere and at the end of the day you still just manage to get by and just afford the basics. Which brings me to the second thing i'd really like to know, do the people that have left SA find that the cost of goods and cost of living is relative to the money that you earn, like on an average salary are you able to live decently?

[lewstherin]

What i would really like to know is how the people that have left SA have found the career prospects and quality of life in the countries they have moved to, in terms of career growth, opportunities and salaries??

In SA you have to work extra hard to get anywhere and at the end of the day you still just manage to get by and just afford the basics. Which brings me to the second thing i'd really like to know, do the people that have left SA find that the cost of goods and cost of living is relative to the money that you earn, like on an average salary are you able to live decently?

I can only speak from an IT career perspective about Aussie - and even then the following opinion may not hold for a more expensive city like Sydney.

Career wise I've had to take a step or two back in terms of career role due to my lack of onshore Aussie experience. That said, once I get some local references on my resume I'm pretty confident about moving up. Nobody here has indicated I would be held back or penalised for being a Saffa, in fact so far I seem to be exceeding expectations quite nicely :)

Salary bands here are a lot more "compressed" than SA. I'm pulling about A$80k per annum and thats considered a good salary. However your basic labourer working on a road or rail project is getting paid 35-40k. In SA, I was probably earning about 5x more than a labourer, whereas here its more like 2x.
So wages are quite high here but generally not as disparate.

The average Aussie household earns around 50-60k p.a and these families are able to buy houses (although that is getting harder), cars, have children and take vacations.

People do work hard here, but as a Saffa I find they definitely don't work as hard as I'm used to seeing. Unions are powerful here so companies are generally pretty careful about overtime etc.

In terms of standard of living/cost of living, I believe once you are earning A$ you can live fairly easily. The banks have a living expense scale that they use when determining how much money they can loan you. According to this scale, an average 2 person (renting) household incurs total living expenses of $1500, add $300 per child. Of course the expenses included in this scale of those required for living (i.e not inclusive of luxuries like satelitte tv or big SUVs).
I can personally vouch for this scale because my wife and I fall into the above category (no kids) and our expenses are around $1750-2000 a month. We rent a 3 bed house, have broadband, buy the occasional nice thing and have the usual insurances (car, household, medical etc).
Considering that even a low wage, 2 income household will bring home an after-tax income of around $4000, you can see that one can stay afloat quite easily.

Big ticket items are cheaper relative to earnings - cars, boats, shoes, clothes etc can be afforded on an A$ income.

The two big downers is the tax rate - around 35%+ once you're earning over 70k pa - and the cost of housing.

A lot of Saffas that holiday to other countries like Aus do straight currency conversions of everything and come to the conclusion that things are very expensive overseas. However once you start earning the local currency, things work out about the same or cheaper.

[Vio]

I can only speak from an IT career perspective about Aussie - and even then the following opinion may not hold for a more expensive city like Sydney.

Career wise I've had to take a step or two back in terms of career role due to my lack of onshore Aussie experience. That said, once I get some local references on my resume I'm pretty confident about moving up. Nobody here has indicated I would be held back or penalised for being a Saffa, in fact so far I seem to be exceeding expectations quite nicely :)

Salary bands here are a lot more "compressed" than SA. I'm pulling about A$80k per annum and thats considered a good salary. However your basic labourer working on a road or rail project is getting paid 35-40k. In SA, I was probably earning about 5x more than a labourer, whereas here its more like 2x.
So wages are quite high here but generally not as disparate.

The average Aussie household earns around 50-60k p.a and these families are able to buy houses (although that is getting harder), cars, have children and take vacations.

People do work hard here, but as a Saffa I find they definitely don't work as hard as I'm used to seeing. Unions are powerful here so companies are generally pretty careful about overtime etc.

In terms of standard of living/cost of living, I believe once you are earning A$ you can live fairly easily. The banks have a living expense scale that they use when determining how much money they can loan you. According to this scale, an average 2 person (renting) household incurs total living expenses of $1500, add $300 per child. Of course the expenses included in this scale of those required for living (i.e not inclusive of luxuries like satelitte tv or big SUVs).
I can personally vouch for this scale because my wife and I fall into the above category (no kids) and our expenses are around $1750-2000 a month. We rent a 3 bed house, have broadband, buy the occasional nice thing and have the usual insurances (car, household, medical etc).
Considering that even a low wage, 2 income household will bring home an after-tax income of around $4000, you can see that one can stay afloat quite easily.

Big ticket items are cheaper relative to earnings - cars, boats, shoes, clothes etc can be afforded on an A$ income.

The two big downers is the tax rate - around 35%+ once you're earning over 70k pa - and the cost of housing.

A lot of Saffas that holiday to other countries like Aus do straight currency conversions of everything and come to the conclusion that things are very expensive overseas. However once you start earning the local currency, things work out about the same or cheaper.

What you highlight here is the main difrence between the 3rd world and the 1st world. There is not such huge disparity in income brackets.

[bb_matt]

What Lewis said -

In the UK, I also took a step back, well, it was a large one because I'm now staff again - had 5 years as a partner in a small web dev company that went belly up due to financial messups (the graphic design biz, the larger part, lost two huge print contracts), spent a year freelancing with my own client base.

Taking a step down to staff and having a boss again was painful. I was lucky to get in on an above average salary, as my skill set was ideal for South Africa - "a bit of everything" - but far from ideal for the UK - "specialise"

It's good though, because my skill level is now increasing again, wheras before, it was dormant - I wasn't learning anything new. Now I've been thrown in the deep end big time. I love that, it makes me feel alive.

Cost of living is difficult to quantify, lets just say I'm not quite as well off in some areas, but my quality of life is better - I have to really watch the pennies, but have peace of mind. Outside my front door right now, there's a farmers market and people are walking up and down the street, chatting, laughing, kids on bikes - no worries at all about crime. No car guards, no hawkers, no beggars, no Tsotis.

I still can't get a credit card - my credit reference still hasn't got enough points - but that's ok. Learning to live without one for now, if you want something, save for it. In time, I'll be "credit worthy" again. It can take 6 to 12 months - you need to be resident at an address for at least 6 months, be on the voters roll, have accounts etc.

Regarding food in the UK - well, you can live very cheap and eat well at home, but restaurants are waaaay more expensive, even related to the salaries.

To put that in perspective, a good meal and a bottle of wine for two in SA would cost me, say, R90 - that was 1/160th of my monthly salary.
In the UK, it's about R400, 1/45th of my monthly salary.

heh - swings and roundabouts.

And then there's houses - if you think property is expensive in SA, hooo boy, just to get on the property ladder here, you need R200 000 saved and it'll cost you 1.5mill at least for a cheap property in a crappy area.

Rentals are another thing, if you want to live in a good area, a two bedroom flat is going to set you back R8000 a month - it'll be nice, no doubt - where I'm staying is well cool, but it hurts financially !

I wouldn't change it for the world - the loneliness I'm still getting, due to being new to the area I'm in - I can take. It's a worthwhile trade for peace of mind, knowing that I can walk out onto the street safe.

Heck, yesterday, I did a 7 mile walk down the Basingstoke canal - stunning. There were LOADS of people out and about, cycling, with thier kids, boating - it was just so cool - none of them worried about any crime, nobody being hastled by anyone else.

The talk at work is NEVER about crime, when I relate the situation in SA, they just can't believe it - the murder and rape stats leave my work mates reeling - they have no concept and are shocked. Of course, I also sell SA the other way, saying that it's still a great place to go for a holiday, which it is.

3 of the 9 people I work with (all brits), have been to SA on holiday and loved it.

Can SA keep it that way?

How long before brits realise that SA tourism is taking them for a ride, when a 300ml bottle of water costs R16 at JHB international?

You see, again, SA shoots itself in the foot - SA used to be the best value for money destination for UK tourists - no longer. Greed has crept in and now it's gone way down the list of affordable overseas holidays.

Stupid, totally stupid, because you know what? - tourism is one area that could help SA big time and generate wealth and jobs - it's direct investment of foreign wealth.

[kingmonty]

But they also go skill hunting for doctors and engineers in india and then we have a lot of engineers in south africa without jobs because they are white and doing jobs they are overqualified for and then the government complains about the shortage of engineers then they start and offer bursary's to black kids to study for engineering that will take about 4 years and then they need atleast 2 years experience where atm we have more than a 1000 qualified engineers with experience but they cant get a job cos of skin colour.
Ahem. Arguably the longest sentence in history. :D

[DigitalSoldier]

hehe maybe that needs an edit :p

But lewstherin if you say unions are tough in australia what do you mean tough for example fine the companies or same as south africa have a big strike where nobody cares if the taxi drivers wants 0.05% increase instead of 0.02%

[werner]

overseas living...hmm...very different to what i was used to in s.a.
in terms of salary i took a huge step forward from my role in s.a. but i wasnt doing anything specialised in s.a. and had just left school practically, so that was to be expected.

I find the salaries in the uk to be very flat. sure, there are hugely specialised roles with the &#163;50k-200k a year salaries, but more than 90% of the country earns a salary of between 15k and 20k a year. doesnt matter if you are a labourer, sweeper, call center person, techie etc. inflation is very low...around 1.5%, so yearly salary increases tend to mimic inflation...i.e. 20k this year, next year you will be on &#163;20,400 etc...it makes it very very easy to budget. no nasty suprises. my shopping bill since 1997 has hardly changed as the price of food tends to be stable.

i had some friends over last month from s.a....their observations: supermarket food is cheaper than s.a. , better quality, larger variety...werner, where are the beggars? lol...clothing was cheaper here (if you shop in the right places, camden market is perfect for this) cars were cheaper here. eating out was expensive, so was beer and smokes. white goods were cheaper in the uk, tv, dvd players etc around the same price, excluding any weird specials...but plasmas and lcd's were half s.a. price.

as a guide, i earn a slightly above average salary, live in a nice area in a 2bed apartment, have more pc+pc stuff than i know what to do with, two cars, insurances etc. i get 3 tea breaks of 15 minutes a day, 1 hour lunch and i work two half days a week..wed+fri i leave at 2:30. works starts at 9 and finishes at 5:30pm. bonuses are paid for certain excellences, so occasionally you get a present:-) no sat or sunday work, however over christmas it can happen which will be double time salary. it is an easy life compared to what i was doing in s.a. real easy. but, there is hardly any concept of a 13th cheque or a company car. few companies here offer that. also, re: credit, I have managed to live here in the uk without touching a credit card, or a loan, or a hp agreement since i got here. everything has been a cash transaction. including the cars etc.

[Nokkie]

well some stats showed that only aproxx 8mill white south africans is running the hole country if everyone were to pull out SA ---> will go the same path as ZIM scary!

[DigitalSoldier]

Aspersie even though I agree with you lets rather not go deeper into that because somewhere some1 is waiting to pull out a race card and kill the thread :p

[mccrack]

lol

I already know who those persons are ;)

[kingmonty]

/me hereby plays the ROYALTY card :D

[theVictorian]

I'm 28 and emigrating to Australia around the end of the year.

REASONS

No money, no jobs. I'm a self-employed designer and illustrator with a decent reputation and I've had some high-profile repeat clients, but no-one wants to pay me a reasonable, liveable rate, so now I'm working on getting a bottom of the rung 8:30-5:30 underpaid job in a print shop just to pay my debts, which are largely due to Telkom. It's degrading and soul destroying.

Crime. I'm tired of living in fear. Nearly everyone I know has been affected by violent crime. If you don't have off-street parking, you can't have a sound-system in your car. You can't use public transport.

Corruption and incompetence. I'm sick of the ANC's goons and paying extortionate taxes combined with extortionate rates for private services because the taxes are doing nothing.

Racism and politics. I realise that this is a two way street, but hearing negative rhetoric about "whites" bandied around by leading politicos when I was only 12 at the end of apartheid, and currently on the bottom end of the earning rung makes me angry and paranoid. You can call me a cowardly little wimp, but I'll be glad to be the cowardly little wimp with all my limbs when the machetes and molotov cocktails come out.

Telkom. No explanation necessary. I love the web, hate being robbed in order to use it.

[bb_matt]

Hmmm, pulling the race card isn't nice :D

I'm kinda similar to Werner, except my hours are a lot longer - IT web dev can be really punishing. Lately, I've been pushing 60 hour weeks, lots of overtime.

As Werner says, you can live without credit here - but boy oh boy oh boy, does this country ever revolve around credit ! (excuse the deliberate pun)

There's a new "trend" here, that individuals can declare bankrupcy - yep, you heard right, struth g0d. A loophole was found in the law that will allow individuals to wipe the slate clean from all thier debt.

There is, however, one HUGE problem with that - you won't get credit for 5 years by law, but in reality, it's unlikely you'll ever get it again.

People in thier early 20's are declaring bankrupcy after running up massive debts. My Mom does volunteer work for the "Citizens Advice Bureau" which handles a lot of this stuff, she recently had a 24 year old girl asking for advise on debts amounting to &#163;80000 - yep, that's almost a million rands. Her annual earnings were not even close to meeting those requirements, yet she still managed to run up that kind of debt.

So, just like the "noveau rich" in SA, the same happens here - people who flaunt wealth they don't have. It's all borrowed and like a house of cards, it eventually comes crashing down.

So, life is tough here financially, but it's more than possible to pay your way - if your a well off person in SA, expect to take a dip, no matter where you move to - Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the US, the UK - you WILL take a financial knock and your standard of living WILL get lower ... BUT ...

it's the QUALITY of life your after ! ;)

[theVictorian]

My expereince of the "quality of life" in SA is that I'm continually paranoid, based on experience, and not hearsay.

I have had my ancient, rusting car broken into more times than I can remember. I had numerous experiences on trains and taxis that fortunately left me unharmed, but I've had relatives and numerous friends murdered, assaulted, stabbed, shot and raped. THIS IS NOT NORMAL. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I, a designer with no capital assets but my own time, have been ripped off numerous times by stinking rich clients for amounts that would make a court appearance unfeasible. When discussing this with a Czech designer who moved down here, it came to my attention that this is a Cape Town problem, because it never happened to her before she got here, and it happened numerous times when she did.

There are a lot of things to like about SA, but watching your back all the time is no way to live.

I'll be blunt, and you can all tell me to go Hell, but South Africa is corrupt on every level. And what makes it worse is that it corrupts YOU. When every level of authority is infested with scum, you start thinking like a criminal about ways to get around the bastards. How many petty, stupid little "favour-the-elite" laws have you broken and felt completely justified in doing so? I've broken plenty, and I pride myself on being an ethical person. I'm sure none of us here feels that the law is really on our side anymore.

This is anomie. Malaise. It's rampant in this society, and I'm tired of it. I want to live where decent conduct is the nomr, not the exception.

Maybe I'm a little weakling, but the sooner I get out of here the better.

[telkomsuig]

Interesting posts.. it looks like the second wave of emigration out of sa is coming from younger people... first wave was families...

[lewstherin]

theVictorian, you can stop apologising for wanting to leave SA. In the end its about your life and doing whats best for yourself. If I learnt anything about SA is that patriotism is a highly subjective thing - just because you were born in a country does not mean you should give up better opportunities elsewhere just to remain. As far as I'm concerned, I owe SA nothing and it owes me nothing. I paid my 4 years of taxes, contributed to the economy and in turn received experience and education.

I actually find it quite funny how uptight some people got with me over my leaving. They were the first to bemoan the crappy state of SA, but as soon as they knew I was leaving they were on my case about "bailing the country". Funny thing is this kind of reaction seems uniquely South African - over here if an Aussie is moving over to the UK or whererever people are like "good on ya" and wish the person well.

SA will always be a part of me, but I'm enjoying integrating into Aussie life and culture. If theres one thing I can't stand its the self-absorbed Saffas that come here and expect Australia to revolve and conform to their South African culture and views. If you going to go to a new country embrace it, remember you are a stranger in their homeland.

telkomsuig, I think you're spot-on about the youth leaving. Coming out of school/uni into a job market skewed by affirmative action and mass unemployment is a tough ask for any young South African. On top of that young skilled people such as myself - who on considering starting a family - have to ask themselves whether they can see a good future for their offspring in SA. For me, starting a family equated to having to leave for their future benefit. I don't want my kids having to deal with the crime and discrimination that characterises SA life.

[Geriatrix]

To the guys who already left, how did you find work and did you find work before you went or after you landed?

And did you have to got for an interview? How did that work?

If some of you guys consider Canada, Aus or the Us, www.Sacanada.org is a good forum with expats and a resident lawyer (Nico) with some answers to your questions.

Me, I'm shooting for Canada. Just have to find a job there first ;)

[zesto]

bb_matt, werner, lewstherin, Thanks alot for answering my questions guys, this is exactly the kinda stuff i was lookinfg for. Im also in IT, working as a SAP Basis Administrator, hoping to complete my SAP Technical certification this year then i wanna be on my way to the UK.. I've been wanting to leave for a while already but i feel you really have to set yourself up well before you leave.

I really cant wait to leave, very excited, wish i could go right away but hopefully by the end of the year my girlfriend and i will be ready to go!!

Very encouraging that a few of the guys that have left and have posted on this forum were born in the 80's, i was born in the 80's so that makes me feel that it is possible for a younger person to leave, have a good job and a fulfilled life.

I've always told my girlfriend that i wouldn't want to raise children here in SA, not right now anyway, its just too complicated!!
Besides i still want to travel and explore the world while i can, and if i stay here in SA thats not going to happen anytime soon..

[theVictorian]

theVictorian, you can stop apologising for wanting to leave SA. In the end its about your life and doing whats best for yourself. If I learnt anything about SA is that patriotism is a highly subjective thing - just because you were born in a country does not mean you should give up better opportunities elsewhere just to remain. As far as I'm concerned, I owe SA nothing and it owes me nothing. I paid my 4 years of taxes, contributed to the economy and in turn received experience and education.

I actually find it quite funny how uptight some people got with me over my leaving. They were the first to bemoan the crappy state of SA, but as soon as they knew I was leaving they were on my case about "bailing the country". Funny thing is this kind of reaction seems uniquely South African - over here if an Aussie is moving over to the UK or whererever people are like "good on ya" and wish the person well.

SA will always be a part of me, but I'm enjoying integrating into Aussie life and culture. If theres one thing I can't stand its the self-absorbed Saffas that come here and expect Australia to revolve and conform to their South African culture and views. If you going to go to a new country embrace it, remember you are a stranger in their homeland.

telkomsuig, I think you're spot-on about the youth leaving. Coming out of school/uni into a job market skewed by affirmative action and mass unemployment is a tough ask for any young South African. On top of that young skilled people such as myself - who on considering starting a family - have to ask themselves whether they can see a good future for their offspring in SA. For me, starting a family equated to having to leave for their future benefit. I don't want my kids having to deal with the crime and discrimination that characterises SA life.

Thanks. Yes, I've received no end of the old "coward and traitor" appellation from "patriotic" (i.e. flagwaving jingo) South Africans. Hilariously, most of the people that called me that left before I managed to.

[mccrack]

heh parkinson007,

You planning on doing the Working Holiday or applying for Work Permit?

Big thanks to bb_matt for all the info in the PM ;)

[zesto]

heh parkinson007,

You planning on doing the Working Holiday or applying for Work Permit?

Big thanks to bb_matt for all the info in the PM ;)

Im really fortunate to have a British Passport, so i'll be using that. Not sure what will happen with my girlfriend but i assume she will be able to come over as my spouse/partner?

Most of my friends and family think im crazy to still be in SA with a Brit Passport and i do too sometimes, but i guess like someone mentioned previously you tend to "get stuck" here, wrapped in life and work. Thats why im making sure this doesn't happen to me again this year :D

[mccrack]

Well if you've been living together she can go as a "civil partnership" as far as i'm aware.

Lucky cow ;)

[pupa]

Well if you've been living together she can go as a "civil partnership" as far as i'm aware.

Lucky cow ;)
Civil? It cant be civil!

[ajak]

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=28994

[zesto]

Well if you've been living together she can go as a "civil partnership" as far as i'm aware.

Lucky cow ;)

Just checked the UK Visas website now, it says an unmarried partner can join you in the UK as long as i am a citizen, i go over before her and we have been living together here in SA. So we should be ok..

You could always come over with my girlfriend and i mccrack u could be our dependant :D

[mccrack]

heh!

I dont wanna be shipped as a s3x slave in the s3x trafficking industry ;)

[theVictorian]

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=28994


Yah, the same old "it's only the weak, unpatriotic, ungrateful people who expect an easy life who leave."

Maybe it is, and if so, I'm totally fine with that. I hope all the strong people helping to "rebuild" the country enjoy being swatted down by the powers that be, because that's all that's ever going to happen here. Sandcastles versus the tide. By all means, be "patriotic" believe that you're doing the right thing. It's noble and all, but there's no hope for SA. We're going to become another African failure, and I want out. I'd rather be a happy citizens of nowhere than a miserable citizen of a cesspit. There's nothing we can do about it because we're fighting an elite that has the power to protect and obfuscate their endeavours through legislation.

Example: Telkom. Nothing has improved. NOTHING.

Eskom, the banks, crime, the roads, home affairs, traffic department, it's all getting worse.

[krycor]

whats the wait time for Working Holiday or Work Permit ? So i know how soon to apply for these.

[mooK]

A UK working holiday visa takes about 3 - 4 weeks if I remember correctly.

[telkomsuig]

If you have enough points for the HSMP visa rather use it to go to the uk. It gives you better long term options....

[werner]

some answers:
SAP developers, man, loads of jobs here...no hassles finding work.

partner of a bp holder/visa holder...you will get an interview probably at the home office in croydon, london. there you will have to prove various things, so take documentation etc, and make sure you know each others favourite foods etc:-)

I came to london first, and applied for my visa here. I had loads of k@k getting it, I wouldnt recommend that route to anybody, but the visa was granted on the 9th of the month and I was working by the 12th. 3 days to find an IT job. piece of p1ss. (at least, for me it was) alternatively, there are loads of jobs advertised all the time on shop windows, where you will probably get around &#163;200 a week (just above minimum wage) packing shelves or making sarmies or cleaning etc....so there is NO EXCUSE to not have a job..if you ar eout of work it is because you are too picky!!!.

I left s.a. for thousands of reasons, but the strongest was that I wanted to start a family. I now have a 7yo boy, who has something I never had. A british passport, decent schooling and a society of respect. When he grows up and wants to go somewhere, he probably can, with my blessing. I dont talk to him about south africa, nor do I show him photos of the place purely because I have no idea how I am going to explain to him about "bad people, murderers etc" and he would probably want to know what all those bars are on the windows and doors of the houses. To nail the point home, the truth is, I grew up in a place that he wouldnt understand, nor do I want him to even know such places exist as he will probably get a tainted view about the human race. His friends are black, white, brown, pink and purple, lol, but to him it is the same diff. as eye colour, hair colour and car colour...doesnt change a thing. I like it like that. Respect the person for who they are, not for what they were born as.
ok, enough from me:-)

[mooK]

Werner, what do you mean by a society of respect?

I took a gap year in London when I was 18, and a lot of the kids I met were disrespectful pricks by SA standards. And then there's the chav peasant culture, it's shocking. They've truly got no respect whatsoever.

And Croydon's chav central.

[bb_matt]

You know, I wish that the "powers that be" in the SA gibbonment could see this thread now and maybe - just maybe - realise that they are losing some valuable citizens.

More likely than not, they'd brand you all racists and say "f$ck you very much, now go" - tis a sad thing, but not that sad.

Remember, this is something that is totally NORMAL for people to do - to leave one country to work in another.

I'm still freaked that many SA whites have this little problem with people leaving to find work overseas - that it's like some kinda bad thing, like you've "left the club" - fsck that !

It's YOUR life to do as you wish with, and PLEASE, don't believe ANY of that clap-trap about patriotism and "my country" - it's just so much BUNK.

Yes, you LOVE where you come from, fair enough, but face it, it's your family and buddies that make it, not the country itself. It's what and who you know - it has nothing to do with the geographical area where you live.

Get out there , screw SA for the moment, let it simmer in it's own stew while you experience the WORLD !

[werner]

Werner, what do you mean by a society of respect?

I took a gap year in London when I was 18, and a lot of the kids I met were disrespectful pricks by SA standards. And then there's the chav peasant culture, it's shocking. They've truly got no respect whatsoever.

And Croydon's chav central.

yes, they do have issues. but eventually everybody grows up, once they start work (like any pubescent w@nkers in any country) they soon chill out.. the chavs are the 10% of any curve...want me to wander around soweto or alex and then say "oh, this is what s.a. is like"?
running around central london and basing opinions on that gives this place a bad impression...ask bb_matt about the "other part" of england. tea and scones @10am etc :-) very very pleasant.

my definition of society of respect was targeted more towards the facet whereby human life is not to be taken lightly. i.e. the types of crime you see over here..

[DigitalSoldier]

I left s.a. for thousands of reasons, but the strongest was that I wanted to start a family. I now have a 7yo boy, who has something I never had. A british passport, decent schooling and a society of respect.

Werner remember sa had a really good schooling system maybe still do but I doubt it. Also when I walk around in the mall I see little black and white kids playing together on the floor not caring about skin colour.

But the anti-racism Sa government (ANC) *spit* doesnt want that to happen so they continue to "brainwash" the kids with television on how apartheid was so bad and then those little kids grow up with hate towards each other.

Like I said I was born in the 80's so didnt really know about apartheid it was something I only learned about on television and heard about in school and when I finished school when I looked at varsity requirements and job ads clearly stating AA applicants only. Thats the same as a bench in a park with a sign on "whites only"

[nocilah]

whoa... wait a minute... you mean we can leave this country?

[pupa]

I finished school when I looked at varsity requirements and job ads clearly stating AA applicants only. Thats the same as a bench in a park with a sign on "whites only"
The crux of the matter!!!!! Tibby what you say? more drivel? or just plain reverse racist facts! Nice to sit in an office or GVT and close the eyes for reality, go visit the informal settlements and wonder how can the GVT and corporate PPL drive the cars they do!

[onionpeel]

If anybody would like information on cost of living, salaries etc. for NZ, please drop me a mail. The Aus and UK examples of narrow salary ranges are also applicable to NZ. The NZ government enforce a living wage, meaning that even if you are packing shelves in a supermarket, you can still get by okay. Best if you have a partner though, then it's a piece of cake! :-)

If you are in Cape Town, I can put you in touch with the NZ emigration agent I used, your first few consultations will be:
- non chargeable
- in a relaxed environment
- commitment free

...so you get to ask all the questions you want.

[lewstherin]

Yeah same goes for me, if any peeps want some info on Aussie drop me a PM or post and I'll try give u an answer.

[pupa]

Best if you have a partner though, then it's a piece of cake! :-) .
The Partner? Yummie Yummie! :)

[mccrack]

A UK working holiday visa takes about 3 - 4 weeks if I remember correctly.

@mooK

My last application through DHL took 4 working days and it was back and approved. They're also cheaper than the agencies.

[onionpeel]

Okay, I already got a message and the person suggested I post info here to allevaite potential mailbox congestion! (or something like that!) :p

In NZ, you basically want to earn a gross salary of at least $45,000 if you are single or $60,000 for a couple. If you got kids, increase that some more. I don't have kids, so I can't comment. Schooling is virtually free, but keep in mind that you still have to pay for school clothes, staionary, transport etc.

Labour is expensive, but material items are not. For example, motor vehicles, electronic items are much cheaper than in SA. Let's say you want to buy a Sont LCD television in SA. Don't. Book a flight to New Zealand or Australia, have a short holiday, buy the same item there and take it back on the plane with you. It will cost you the same! I know, I bought two items over here instead of SA ;-)

Property is expensive in NZ. Very expensive. You wont be able to just cash in your house in SA and swap it for the same in NZ.If you got a nice house in Camps Bay or Clifton, then you can 'swap' it for a nice piece of turf this side.
That doesn't mean to say that you can't make it over here, everything else is cheap, it's just accommodation is expensive, well petrol is sort of expensive, but you should be taking public transport to work ;-)

Food is really cheap, so is communication (fixed line calls, internet), so are is public transport (which is pretty good).

Looking for a job? Check out www.seek.co.nz. There are more sites, this is one of the better ones. Once you have a work permit or permanent residence, there are plenty of jobs available, even if you have to work in a shop or at Burger King, there is a minimum wage, so you can survive. There is no issue with skin colour and the labour law makes it fairly difficult to fire staff.

Auckland, being 8 degress latitude further south than Cape Town, is a few degress cooler on average. Winter temperatures don't reach freezing, as it is a marine climate. There is somewhat more rain than Cape Town, but from what I have seen, it is not continous. A lot of the rain is in the form of scattered showers, so it is more unpredictable. Check out www.metservice.co.nz for daily weather updates (Auckland looks worse than what is shown).

[armitage]

How hard is it to get the ball rolling on immigrating to the UK/Europe?

I've been working now for bout 6 years in a db kind of enviroment and studying part time.

Now i'm wondering if i should stick to my studies and wait another 5 years before immigrating or if i should pack my bags and get the ball rolling.


Anybody got any info on what you need to immigrate and how hard it is to find a job once your over there.

I would hate to get to london and find out that i can't get a job.

[telkomsuig]

The UK is much easier to move to compared to the rest of the europe. Look at the holiday visa adn HSMP visa see which one you qualify for. IT sector jobs I am not sure about I am sure someone else will be able to tell you how hard/easy it is to find a job before you go.

[duderoo]

IT Jobs should be easy enough to find, depends if you are looking for a contract or permie job...contracts there are loads of, permies less. Check our www.jobserve.co.uk

[zesto]

How hard is it to get the ball rolling on immigrating to the UK/Europe?

I've been working now for bout 6 years in a db kind of enviroment and studying part time.

Now i'm wondering if i should stick to my studies and wait another 5 years before immigrating or if i should pack my bags and get the ball rolling.


Anybody got any info on what you need to immigrate and how hard it is to find a job once your over there.

I would hate to get to london and find out that i can't get a job.

Depending on what DB technology you have been working with and your qualifications i can quite confidently say you would be able to find an IT related job relatively easily. I was in the UK in 2003 for 4 months i manged to find a data entry job the day after i arrived. Not the most exciting job but at the time i had NO IT experience or qualifications and it paid the bills pretty well. My bro and i were even able to afford going to Paris for a weekend before we came home.

Have a look at http://www.jobserve.com i think its one of the best IT job sites around and will give you a good indication of where you stand in terms of getting a job. Some of the previous posts in this thread from guys that are in the UK already give alot of useful info too. Im busy setting myself up to leave at the end of the year, just need to certify first.

In terms of education, i think overall education is more accessible and affordable in the UK so i wouldn't wait around in SA to keep studying cause you can do that there. Something i noticed when i was there is that the government gives interest free study loans to students so you can study full time and then only have to pay back your loan when you start working, unlike here where you must pay the interest while you study.

To give an example i was speaking to an old high school friend of mine last night, she lives in southampton. She's been in the UK for 3 months, has no tertiary education and has managed to land a decent paying client relations job with HSBC Bank in their investment department! Not sure if this is an exception but i generally find that my cousins that are studying & working part-time, living in various parts of the UK have more to show from their jobs than i do, i also work in IT and im working full time, weekends, after hours and all that good stuff...:)

[globban]

I'm saving up some cash and leaving for UK next year for good! The South Africa I grew up in and loved is gone and I have experienced too many problems here to even think of staying. It is really sad as my career is doing well but what is the point of having "stuff" if it gets stolen or you get killed for it??? I had my car stolen, cell phone, Ipod (all seperate occasions). My uncle was attacked for a cell phone. My mom has been attacked. We live in "safe" areas. The amount of noise I hear from a certain "loud race" keeps me up almost every night as the neighborhoods everywhere seem to be turning into townships! And I can't even watch a fr@ckin movie without people shouting and talking all the way through!

Sorry to be negative but lets get real... The government and people around make up a country and if those are crap how are we supposed to enjoy our lives?

I will never come back after I've left... not for family or friends!

[mccrack]

@globban

It's quite difficult to get british citizenship unless through an ancestral visa, and i hear even those are going to be tightened up on.

[rooijan]

Good:
* weather

Bad:
* incompetent gov (will leave it at that, bandwidth too expensive to elaborate)
* corrupt gov
* incompetent city council
* corrupt city council
* BEE
* crime
* expensive telecomms
* expensive cars
* expensive DSTV
* traffic
* all sort of arcane laws to comply with e.g. FICA
* Gautrain nonsense
* etc
* etc

[frenchi6625]

Good:
* weather

Bad:
* incompetent gov (will leave it at that, bandwidth too expensive to elaborate)
* corrupt gov
* incompetent city council
* corrupt city council
* BEE
* crime
* expensive telecomms
* expensive cars
* expensive DSTV
* traffic
* all sort of arcane laws to comply with e.g. FICA
* Gautrain nonsense
* etc
* etc

add UIF for domestics

[globban]

@mccrack

I can live and work UK permanently and even if I find it unsuitable I can get into Canada as my brother has citizenship there. One thing for sure is that I will not stay here! I will do anything it takes to leave this jungle, Africa, behind!! If it were possible I would go back in time and keep the colonists away from Africa!! Rather leave the ******* to their own ways than go through all the crap millions have gone through... and for what?! A bit of money and land that is now all being paid back welfare and aid?! Colonisation was a waste of time and the people responsible were the only ones that benefitted! All we need to do is watch Carte Blanche and read the news to see how our own people are getting butchered for something we didn't even do!

Leaving this continent will be the best thing I've ever done and I hope others will do the same before it's too late!

[kingmonty]

It's a difficult thing to just up and move when you have a family. My advise to anyone young enough to do so: get out now while you still can