Cape Council booted off Gateway Project

[kingmonty]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060613023646791C919828



The City of Cape Town, accused of using the N2 Gateway as a "political football", has been stripped by national government of all responsibilities relating to the housing project.

Housing Minister Lindiwe Sisulu declared a dispute against the City on Monday and instructed Mayor Helen Zille to recuse herself and the DA-led multiparty government from future involvement in the project.

:mad:

[Vio]

This is better for the city itself as goverment will now pay for the project not the city. As far as I know the project was mess with lots of unpaid bills etc etc left behind by mfketo.

[pope24]

I would think that the city would be ecstatic about this, because it sounded like a real mess up

[neio]

Yep, this is good news for the ratepayers of CT.

[BTTB]

This may be so.
But I am not sure how they are going to complete projects without City Council's input on the matter. Water, Electricity, Roads, Stormwater etc.
Surely the Provincial Authorities cannot just overnight become another Council.
As stated in several articles the Project was politically motivated and it is clear to me that Province is keen to continue pumping our money at this project, no matter what the cost.
Province may not be collecting Rates, but they certainly get funds from National Government and it is all the same thing in the end, the tax payers money.

There are gross irregularities with the Gateway Project.
Units that should be costing R70 end up costing R150K.

According to the previous Mayor, by the end of 2006 everyone would have a house.
With 266 000 families still on the waiting list it is obvious that this target was so way off, that I am of the opinion that the previous Mayor Mama-India hadn't a clue what she was doing.
No surprise here, but still nevertheless a lot of our money has been spent on projects that are not showing returns.
Where is the Capacity Building that the ANC likes to quote?
It is all on paperwork, but in practice there is no visible signs that things are happening or changing?

[BTTB]

Housing project changes a political gimmick: Zille (http://www.sabcnews.co.za/politics/the_provinces/0,2172,129288,00.html)
Helen Zille, says the drastic changes done to the N2 Gateway housing project are a political gimmick........

[JStrike]

Whilst this is a good thing, it would have been good to have been associated with the project if it had worked (The downside being that they would also be associated with it if it had failed, which it looks like it will)

[neio]

266,000 houses @ R150,000 per unit comes to R 39,900,000,000

Thats a whole lot of 4X4's the gov could have bought.

[Tassidar]

Let's put this into perspective. There are two main reasons why the ANC transferred control from local to provincial and national government:
(1) To cover up all its shenanigans related to bad governance. The degree of corruption and cronyism in the N2 housing projects is by all accounts astounding.
(2) There is actually a chance that the DA will make the N2 housing project work. If that were the case, how would it look for the ANC who claim to champion the previously disadvantaged? The ANC really want to take credit for the housing project.

I find it ironic that control has been passed to the provincial government (PGWC). From what I have heard, the PGWC is even less competent than the Cape Town Municipality. Apart from that, provincial government really has no role to play in South Africa (and I have heard rumours that it is going to cease to exist). After all, why have it, if every square metre of SA is covered by municipalities? What possible role does it serve? None at all.

Conclusion: Yet again, the ANC are letting politics get in the way of efficient and effective service delivery.

[Tassidar]

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=274381
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[BTTB]

Good Post Tassidar.

/Off Topic
Provincial Government and here in the Western Cape there is also a Regional Government?

Anyway. I have noticed that in several instances where it came to Development Planning where clearly the Ratepayers, Residents and also the Local Authority is against a particular Development and have gone through the usual long winded process and all parties have voted against it, the Developer Appeals through the Local Authority and the Development is given the green light by the Provincial Authorities.

The net result is that the Resident's wishes are simply sidelined in favour of The Developer, often to the detriment of the community.
One wonders why we needed their input for anyway?


/On Topic.
I must certainly agree that the ANC Provincial Government is trying to prove that they can finish the N2 Gateway.
So let them do it.
At least now they have the necessary motivation. :rolleyes:

[BTTB]

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=274381
:mad: :mad: :mad:
That is a pack of lies.
Zille is anything but what they claim.
The ANC are bordering on libel.

Very sad day indeed for the ANC when they resort to Gutter Politics.

[TonyA]

Tassidar, While I share your concerns and sentiments about Prov Govt, do you really believe that Prov Govt would be cancelled? All those cronies without Film Star salaries, car allowances body guards etc! :)
Even CTN city council is over packed 210 councillors, a city like Auckland only has some 30, the work is done by permanent staff not politicians!

[Tassidar]

Hi TonyA,

No, in effect, I think that the ANC will stall any efforts to cancel provincial government while the DA is in power in Cape Town. Provincial government is too powerful a tool for the ANC to give up at the moment.

However, it is useful to remember that CT local government is bigger than the PGWC.

[Angelo]

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/&articleid=274381
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Without even reading the article I agree she's not a mayor of the people, she has scrapped a BEE compliance requirement for tenders which is sad given the economic disparities that still exist in that city. No wonder the ANC is wrestling to get control of the city back because with Zille in charge it will never shed its "racist city" tag seemingly.

[BTTB]

@Angelo

For you information, 62% of the Residents of Cape Town did not vote for the ANC.
The ANC needs to get to grips with this fact.
After 3 years of Mama_India Imperfekto's ANC Led Council behind closed doors it is refreshing to breath the South Easter again.

May I ask more or less which province you live in?

[Tassidar]

Without even reading the article I agree she's not a mayor of the people, she has scrapped a BEE compliance requirement for tenders which is sad given the economic disparities that still exist in that city. No wonder the ANC is wrestling to get control of the city back because with Zille in charge it will never shed its "racist city" tag seemingly.

Angelo, what the ANC instituted was UNCONSTITUTIONAL; it has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACISM. Any non-compliance with the law must be rectified. (Source: http://www.capetimes.co.za/index.php?from=rss_Cape%20Times&fArticleId=3269630). It is really quite simple.

Secondly, the ANC has been trying to wrest control since long before that. Therefore your statement cannot be true.

Trying to implement a system that stamps out corruption, nepotism, cronyism etc... and deliver services that need to be delivered, cannot be called racist. The ANC did its utmost best to run this city into the ground, as has been witnessed in numerous press articles over the last couple of weeks (if you do not believe me, do the research; you will find lots of examples). I found it an insult to all citizens of Cape Town of all colour, that the ANC allowed the same incompetent officials stand for reelection again in March. Please note: I would say the same thing no matter who the mayor and who the party.

[kilo39]

Without even reading the article I agree she's not a mayor of the people, she has scrapped a BEE compliance requirement for tenders which is sad given the economic disparities that still exist in that city. No wonder the ANC is wrestling to get control of the city back because with Zille in charge it will never shed its "racist city" tag seemingly. This project has been stalled for years thanks to the non-delivery of the anc. Now Zille wants to deliver and ANC takes it away - I mean - what interest does the anc have in its people??! They guarantee non-delivery and when someone tries to fix it they complain - what is their political agenda (besides none and non-delivery?)

<deleted by="ic" reason="personal attack"/>.

:mad:

/edit/ and take your <deleted by="ic" reason="personal attack"/> agenda somewhere else - I for one don't appreciate it.

[Toxin]

No wonder the ANC is wrestling to get control of the city back because with Zille in charge it will never shed its "racist city" tag seemingly.

Please supply links (online news or otherwise) where the "racist city" tag has been used. I've haven't heard/read of that one yet.

[Chris]

Former city manager Wallace Mgoqi had been treated in "the most uncouth, in the most rude and in the most obscene manner we've ever seen in any layer of government since our advent of democracy".

Maybe because his contract was illegal. Duh!


"She acts as a mayor of the DA, not as a mayor of the people of the city of Cape Town, " he said.

Tell me when did the ANC -ever- get into power in CT because of the will of the people? 0 times. So the ANC were never really representing anyone actually.

@ Angelo: 30% is an awful lot to give to BEE - I'd give it max 5% simply because I'd weigh experience and skills development much more highly. Do you really want unqualified companies to be running in CT in 2010?

[kilo39]

So now using the word "rascist" is a personal attack?! How else would you like me to put it?

Your rascist agenda? A personal attack? Well, fine.

[BTTB]

I read some statistics of the make up of the people living in Cape Town.
Whether it is a true reflection of the current status quo, is not known to me.

White - 600 000
Black - 800 000
Coloured - 1 200 000
Total - 2 600 000

[BTTB]

So now using the word "rascist" is a personal attack?! How else would you like me to put it?

Your rascist agenda? A personal attack? Well, fine.
Whoah Kilo! :)

I reported the post, for your information.
As I do not have Mod privileges in this Topic, I asked that the word "Idiot" be removed and it was.
That is all.

Regards,
BTTB

[kilo39]

Thanks BTTB :D

Idiot? Call it what it is - I certainly have been called the same thing on occasion - it provides impetus to the learning curve!

[BTTB]

Thanks BTTB :D

Idiot? Call it what it is - I certainly have been called the same thing on occasion - it provides impetus to the learning curve!
Hello Kilo,

Thanks for your positive reply. :)
In future please use the Report Bad Post feature if someone calls you similar names.

Regards,
BTTB

[kilo39]

Zille said last week that the City refused to pick up the tab of more than R200-million for overrun costs and claims by contractors against the City for payment delays.

It is still unclear how the first 705 completed units will be allocated. Building costs of the units have increased significantly since the project started, resulting in a R35-million budget overrun for the first phase.
-
Zille has welcomed this, saying: "The auditor general's involvement is a welcome development. We are also committed to continuing our forensic audit into the matter."
-
Zille said she "welcomed the admission" by Sisulu that province and national government should "share in covering the outstanding costs of this project". The City is still responsible for the funding and provision of bulk infrastructure for the development.

Local Government and Housing MEC Richard Dyantyi could not be reached for comment late on Monday night. Neither could Sisulu's spokesperson, who did not return several messages.

35 million rand overrun = 705 completed units

Bwaahahaha - a model of efficiency and competency - and now it's back where it started - on the road to none.

/edit/ how do these people sleep at night?
"these people" = guilty of non-delivery, massive overspending - and could I say corruption?

[BTTB]

Cape housing beneficiaries have longer wait (http://www.sabcnews.co.za/politics/government/0,2172,129325,00.html)

[BTTB]

35 million rand overrun = 705 completed units

Bwaahahaha - a model of efficiency and competency - and now it's back where it started - on the road to none.

/edit/ how do these people sleep at night?
"these people" = guilty of non-delivery, massive overspending - and could I say corruption?
They probably sleep well?

/Unrelated
There is a fellow who lives around the corner from us who was one of the Developers in the Delft area.
We read about the poor quality of homes that were built in the area and after the first winter storm, many roofs were blown off.
The Sheriff visited this guys house and for a while we heard he was in prison, which was probably correct as we never saw him drive past in his flashy car.

I notice him driving around again. In a flashy car.
This type of person, you will always see driving a flashy car, while poor people must live in homes that are not even 5 years old, but are literally falling apart at the seams.

[kilo39]

Sad days for SA - yet more of the same. What happened to the Renaissance?

[BTTB]

35 million rand overrun = 705 completed units

Bwaahahaha - a model of efficiency and competency - and now it's back where it started - on the road to none.

/edit/ how do these people sleep at night?
"these people" = guilty of non-delivery, massive overspending - and could I say corruption?

Zille, who was kicked out of the project after she halted all payments for the project, says contracts were not signed, budgets were overshot by millions of rands, and it there seems to have been some corruption in the process. This is the reason why they are doing a forensic audit, she says.

Cape housing beneficiaries have longer wait
(http://www.sabcnews.co.za/politics/government/0,2172,129325,00.html)


Sad days for SA - yet more of the same. What happened to the Renaissance?
The African Rebirth.
As in post "dark ages".
But this applies to the rest of Africa. Not us.
Here we can live in corruption while the other parts of Africa play catch up.
In the case of Zimbabwe it seems they missed the boat and are marching back into the "dark ages".
South Africa is sort of hanging in the balance, not going in any particular direction.

But IMO The Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance) should have been confined to post 1500 European History. Did Africa have a "dark ages" like Europe? One will never really know, but I think the people in Africa were just idling along, minding their own business.
This terminology is not understood by Africans?:confused:

[ignacio]

Without even reading the article I agree she's not a mayor of the people, she has scrapped a BEE compliance requirement for tenders which is sad given the economic disparities that still exist in that city. No wonder the ANC is wrestling to get control of the city back because with Zille in charge it will never shed its "racist city" tag seemingly.Never mind that BEE is itself, by definition, racist - since it seeks favourable treatment of one group over another solely on the basis of skin colour.
BEE should be scrapped - Zille acted correctly... inefficient, corrupt, or incompetent contractors ONLY exacerbate the "economic disparities" - simply put, would you not want houses built on time and on cost by competent contractors or enrich a few BEE ones who can't even get the job done? BEE is a disaster so far... I am quite sick of it: in the case of the dept. of home affairs, from my experience, they have a terrible lack of competence, no doubt due to BEE policies... so how does that work? You "empower" one individual by giving them a job they are incapable of doing or not trained to do and you get maybe some economic spillover to that person's immediate social circle (family etc)... but that one person, because of their limitations, keeps people from getting ID cards on time or delays visas for foreign nationals... so imagine the net economic empowerment loss to society because of this one empowerment? Imagine the net economic loss when that one empowered person is a minister! (Ivy??) Putting inefficient, incompetent or corrupt people into public office does not aid economic empowerment at all.

My suggestion is do away with BEE (since it - again - is racist) and black consumers should just encourage change through consumer action: they have the vast majority in numbers, so why don't they support only black empowered companies? This takes black empowerment away from the government (where it shouldn't be) and back to the people (e.g. do they want to shop at certain places, or do shop owners mind losing all black shoppers?) Back that up with strong small business support and you have a recipe for blacks to empower themselves instead of getting favourable goverment treatment that hurts us all.

[ajak]

Never mind that BEE is itself, by definition, racist - since it seeks favourable treatment of one group over another solely on the basis of skin colour.
BEE should be scrapped - Zille acted correctly... inefficient, corrupt, or incompetent contractors ONLY exacerbate the "economic disparities" - simply put, would you not want houses built on time and on cost by competent contractors or enrich a few BEE ones who can't even get the job done? BEE is a disaster so far... I am quite sick of it: in the case of the dept. of home affairs, from my experience, they have a terrible lack of competence, no doubt due to BEE policies... so how does that work? You "empower" one individual by giving them a job they are incapable of doing or not trained to do and you get maybe some economic spillover to that person's immediate social circle (family etc)... but that one person, because of their limitations, keeps people from getting ID cards on time or delays visas for foreign nationals... so imagine the net economic empowerment loss to society because of this one empowerment? Imagine the net economic loss when that one empowered person is a minister! (Ivy??) Putting inefficient, incompetent or corrupt people into public office does not aid economic empowerment at all.

My suggestion is do away with BEE (since it - again - is racist) and black consumers should just encourage change through consumer action: they have the vast majority in numbers, so why don't they support only black empowered companies? This takes black empowerment away from the government (where it shouldn't be) and back to the people (e.g. do they want to shop at certain places, or do shop owners mind losing all black shoppers?) Back that up with strong small business support and you have a recipe for blacks to empower themselves instead of getting favourable goverment treatment that hurts us all.

√ON

[ajak]

Zille, who was kicked out of the project after she halted all payments for the project, says contracts were not signed, budgets were overshot by millions of rands, and it there seems to have been some corruption in the process. This is the reason why they are doing a forensic audit, she says.

Cape housing beneficiaries have longer wait
(http://www.sabcnews.co.za/politics/government/0,2172,129325,00.html)


The African Rebirth.
As in post "dark ages".
But this applies to the rest of Africa. Not us.
Here we can live in corruption while the other parts of Africa play catch up.
In the case of Zimbabwe it seems they missed the boat and are marching back into the "dark ages".
South Africa is sort of hanging in the balance, not going in any particular direction.

But IMO The Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance) should have been confined to post 1500 European History. Did Africa have a "dark ages" like Europe? One will never really know, but I think the people in Africa were just idling along, minding their own business.
This terminology is not understood by Africans?:confused:
Hell man Africans dont understood by Africans:D :D

[lilDeath]

I read some statistics of the make up of the people living in Cape Town.
Whether it is a true reflection of the current status quo, is not known to me.

White - 600 000
Black - 800 000
Coloured - 1 200 000
Total - 2 600 000
Where does Muslims, Indians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians fit in the numbers here?

[neio]

1 Nigerian can supply 100 people with coke a day.

[BTTB]

Where does Muslims, Indians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians fit in the numbers here?

Not sure.
I suspect the figure for coloured people included Muslims and Indians?

Foreigners. Well that is another story.
I doubt Home Affairs knows how many people are in South Africa, legally or illegally?
The last I heard, we have about 2 million Zimbabweans in South Africa.
Quite a considerable amount of people if you consider that we only have a population of about 46 million.
Not sure where we are heading? Even my staff have expressed concern about all these foreigners.

What if these foreigners cannot find work? Are they going to stay here or return home?

[JStrike]

Lets not destroy this thread with discussions as to the merits of AA/BEE.

As to the African Renaissance, I think it is well underway, with us as it's helm. Corruption (And liberalisation of the Telecoms sector) is one of those demons we must shake off whilst going through this (And I believe the AR will help in this regard).

[Skeptik]

What's the point of voting for an effective Mayor like Zille - who promised reform for the council - if the ANC are just going to step in and impose 'direct' rule like taking over the N2 Gateway project 1 day before the elections?

[JStrike]

Skeptik : It allows her and the council to get on and do their job

[Skeptik]

The electorate are pretty fickle. If they think the ANC was responsible for giving them a roof over their heads they will vote for them. Houses=Votes.

BTW The council still has to service the dwellings - collecting rent/providing water etc.

[Albereth]

she has scrapped a BEE compliance requirement for tenders which is sad given the economic disparities that still exist in that city.

This doesn't apply only to the WC but too life in general.

Your house needs painting. Do you get a BEE company to do it? Or do you consider a couple of quotes and choose the one that gives you the best price for the quality and timing appropriate to the amount you're going to pay? And itsn't it the same for all the other services you use - like the garden service.

Now, if you are happy that's how you make purchasing decisions in your home, why wouldn't it make the same sense at a municipal level? I want the road maintained at the best price/quality point today. I want the rubbish removed every Monday and for that I pay R... So why should I pay more for the service I require in the name of BEE.

And let's face it - are the employees of a BEE company bettter off than in a non-BEE company? Do they get paid more? Are their conditions any better? I suggest not. So all that BEE is doing is adding costs and enriching just a few.

It is justifiable to scrap the BEE requirement. It doesn't add anything except cost. By the same token - we don't just give business to the non-BEE company because they're white owned - we do it because it is the service we require at the price we accept at the time that is right.

Consider that allowing a premium of up to 20% for awarding a BEE contract doesn't suddenly mean that there is 20% more being collected in rates and taxes - it means that some other areas are going to suffer to the tune of 20% (this is not a lesson in maths and may be overly simplified - but it illustrates the point).

I guess it would bring to why there is politics in a municipality? What does it add? All I want is for competent people to run my immediate environment properly. Sure, they need to look after the needs of ALL the citizens - but why is it political. I don't have a DA road outside my house. My refuse doesn't vote so why should it worry who takes it away?

[kingmonty]

Where does Muslims, Indians, Zimbabweans, Nigerians fit in the numbers here?There are only four Indians in Cape Town. :D

[neio]

Hrm/ too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

[Angelo]

Please supply links (online news or otherwise) where the "racist city" tag has been used. I've haven't heard/read of that one yet.
The Deputy President was in Cape Town a few months back and appealed to all residents to welcome everyone regardless of race so that the city could shed its racist image. She even said most of the black people living in the Cape Town townships are made to feel unwelcome when they visit the city itself.

And haven't you seen this Racist attack in the Cape (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060613103544906C951220) story or are just in denial about the racism that plagues the city? No wonder people burst at the mere whisper of the word 'racism' here in the forum because they are ashamed or in denial of its existence and would rather sweep it under the carpet.

That's why this topic was NEVER posted or discussed in this forum despite making national headlines. What a shame!

[ajak]

The man you asked me to speak about today had other sides. He became so engulfed in the struggle for the emancipation of the black-folk that it immersed him into blind white hatred and dismissal towards any form of unity on common struggles. We cannot leave this sides unturned. We cannot turn a blind eye to this facts, authored by him and adored by many who, misled by this champion of black-racism on whites, even refused disarmament believing that a negotiated compromise is not a possibility. This is an ideal and value you should refuse to learn.

The man you also asked me to speak about suffered from a narrow nationalism syndrome. A syndrome that refused to believe that the black man was oppressed equally because of his cheap labour power and that this was also a class struggle. Biko the valuable man was also a man trapped in the misleading of backwardness, which he confused with culture. he continuously referred to white SA as the Coca-Cola and Hamburger generation and denied the fact that this was post-primitive SA, and that Imperialism is knocking on SA’s door. This was to be fatal.
http://www.sacp.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=153&Itemid=92

[neio]

The attack didnt happen in CT, it happend in a small town, and it wasnt even a racist attack, how can white on white be racist?

"How can a white person be racist towards another white person? She should not expect the community to like her because she is a quota player. She is being used," he said.

"She received 21 votes in the local government elections; she obviously had not done anything to impress anyone. Surely everything cannot be racist?"

[ajak]

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/racism_slavery_terrorism.htm
RACISM AT THE RACISM CONFERENCE
The South African President, Thabo Mbeki, in his address to the conference, lifted up a good standard: "we are determined to ensure that nobody anywhere should be subjected to the insult and offence of being despised by another or others because of his or her race, colour, nationality or origin … every human being should enjoy rights as equals with other human beings … no culture or language or tradition of any people is inferior, deserving of being despised, mocked or destroyed, all peoples and all nations are mutually and each equally entitled to their identity and their national pride …" 9

Unfortunately, having advocated non-racialism, the ANC president then proceeded to berate whites! In his speech, Mbeki regularly referred to the victims of racism as "black and brown", and the villains guilty of racism as "white". Statements by other delegates exposed the pervasive perception that only whites could be racists, or even that "all whites are racists!" and that no black person could be guilty of racism! All of which seemed rather racist comments and self-contradictory.

MUGABE’S RACISM AND STATE-SPONSORED ANARCHY IN ZIMBABWE
Some delegates at the WCAR wore T-shirts supporting Zimbabwean dictator, Robert Mugabe. "Mugabe is Right!" declared one T-shirt showing an angry Mugabe with a raised, clenched fist. Yet as one South African delegate, Dene Smuts, pointed out, Mugabe is guilty of the most vicious racism against whites and against Jews. With Mugabe’s disastrous policy of state-sponsored anarchy, with the stealing and looting of farms and businesses, murder of farmers and opposition members, terrorising of Supreme Court justices, bombing of opposition newspaper offices, imprisoning of critics and reckless promotion of racial hatred against whites and Jews – it remains a mystery as to why Zimbabwe was not on the Racism Conference’s agenda. 10

[ajak]

The Deputy President was in Cape Town a few months back and appealed to all residents to welcome everyone regardless of race so that the city could shed its racist image. She even said most of the black people living in the Cape Town townships are made to feel unwelcome when they visit the city itself.

And haven't you seen this Racist attack in the Cape (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060613103544906C951220) story or are just in denial about the racism that plagues the city? No wonder people burst at the mere whisper of the word 'racism' here in the forum because they are ashamed or in denial of its existence and would rather sweep it under the carpet.

That's why this topic was NEVER posted or discussed in this forum
despite making national headlines. What a shame!

Stop this BS about racism, if you dig deep enough you can get many instances where racism affected all ppl in South Africa not just blacks...last post/o and by the way racism is not the thread topic.

[BTTB]

@Angelo

I asked you in a earlier post more or less what province you live in?
No answer?

I am thinking that you do not live in the Western Cape as had you lived here you would know that the link provided does not refer to Cape Town and the topic at hand and is little dorpie quite a way to the east from Cape Town itself.

Please add constructive criticism or leave this topic.
Your remarks have added a racist connotation to my thread.
My Thread.

I have lived in Cape Town my whole life and unless you know what is going on in this town, rather butt out.
Thanks. :)
BTTB

[Tassidar]

[url].
MUGABE’S RACISM AND STATE-SPONSORED ANARCHY IN ZIMBABWE
Some delegates at the WCAR wore T-shirts supporting Zimbabwean dictator, Robert Mugabe. "Mugabe is Right!" declared one T-shirt showing an angry Mugabe with a raised, clenched fist. Yet as one South African delegate, Dene Smuts, pointed out, Mugabe is guilty of the most vicious racism against whites and against Jews. With Mugabe’s disastrous policy of state-sponsored anarchy, with the stealing and looting of farms and businesses, murder of farmers and opposition members, terrorising of Supreme Court justices, bombing of opposition newspaper offices, imprisoning of critics and reckless promotion of racial hatred against whites and Jews – it remains a mystery as to why Zimbabwe was not on the Racism Conference’s agenda. 10

Incidentally, I refer you also to the fact that Mugabe was guilty of inter-tribal genocide. In 1983/1984, Mugabe unleashed his infamous 5'th Brigade on the Ndebele people, who occupy the Southern part of Zimbabwe. The brutality of the killing was probably on a par with the most brutal regimes (think Nazi Germany, Stalin, Pot etc...). (My source is: Cry Zimbabwe by Peter Stiff)

[Toxin]

The Deputy President was in Cape Town a few months back and appealed to all residents to welcome everyone regardless of race so that the city could shed its racist image. She even said most of the black people living in the Cape Town townships are made to feel unwelcome when they visit the city itself.

And haven't you seen this Racist attack in the Cape (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20060613103544906C951220) story or are just in denial about the racism that plagues the city? No wonder people burst at the mere whisper of the word 'racism' here in the forum because they are ashamed or in denial of its existence and would rather sweep it under the carpet.

That's why this topic was NEVER posted or discussed in this forum despite making national headlines. What a shame!

Just a couple of things:

1. I asked for links to where Cape Town was discribed as a "Racist City".
2. The article you supplied was published yesterday, if you had known about it yesterday why didn't you link to it or start a thread about it yesterday since it was, as you put it, "making national headlines"?
3. I will be the first to admit that I don't read/listen to the news that much. This is something that I wished to rectify by reading news articles posted in this forum. So your "living in denial" comment I'll give a skip as I'm not all knowing and don't peruse each and every news site known to man.

[kingmonty]

@Angelo

I asked you in a earlier post more or less what province you live in?
No answer?

I am thinking that you do not live in the Western Cape as had you lived here you would know that the link provided does not refer to Cape Town and the topic at hand and is little dorpie quite a way to the east from Cape Town itself.

Please add constructive criticism or leave this topic.
Your remarks have added a racist connotation to my thread.
My Thread.

Technically it's my thread but you are a mod :D


I have lived in Cape Town my whole life and unless you know what is going on in this town, rather butt out.
Thanks. :)
BTTB
What would be absolutely awesome here is a moderation system like that used on Slashdot - where the majority readers gets to award mod points and a reason (such as trolling, insightful, interesting, etc). Then I can just mark my threshold high enough to avoid all the trolling posts.

[ajak]

The attack didnt happen in CT, it happend in a small town, and it wasnt even a racist attack, how can white on white be racist?

"How can a white person be racist towards another white person? She should not expect the community to like her because she is a quota player. She is being used," he said.

"She received 21 votes in the local government elections; she obviously had not done anything to impress anyone. Surely everything cannot be racist?"
White against white?easy...i`m "off white"(or perhaps a littel creamish...so shut up, you pale face:D :D

[BTTB]

Technically it's my thread but you are a mod :D

What would be absolutely awesome here is a moderation system like that used on Slashdot - where the majority readers gets to award mod points and a reason (such as trolling, insightful, interesting, etc). Then I can just mark my threshold high enough to avoid all the trolling posts.
@Kingmonty
:o :o

I am really sorry.
I thought it was my thread? An honest error as I have spent quite a considerable amount of time posting within it.
I have made input into several threads related to the Zille, Cape Town Unicity Government and the like, that it has all really become quite a blur of postings.

Our dear member Angelo railed me as the topic was going so well until he entered the fray.
There are days like this that being a Mod has it's disadvantages as my post only shows that I am human and open to errors.

I sincerely hope you will forgive me for pushing my weight around within your thread. :)

Kind Regards,
BTTB

[kingmonty]

I sincerely hope you will forgive me for pushing my weight around within your thread. :)
No problem mate :D
It's certainly been a worthwhile read

[BTTB]

No problem mate :D
It's certainly been a worthwhile read
Thanks. :)

[ajak]

And now?is everything finised/kaput/klaar....eish was a "lekker fight "while it lasted:D :D ♥

[BTTB]

And now?is everything finised/kaput/klaar....eish was a "lekker fight "while it lasted ♥
Hi Ajak. :)

You and Angelo should start your own thread together. :D
Lost the plot of this thread. :rolleyes:
Not to worry. :)

Cheers.
BTTB

[ajak]

Hi Ajak. :)

You and Angelo should start your own thread together. :D
Lost the plot of this thread. :rolleyes:
Not to worry. :)

Cheers.
BTTB
Jy`s lekker mislik,smily face en al

[BTTB]

Jy`s lekker mislik,smily face en al
Ja nee ou boet. :D

Geniet jou dag verder. ;)

[neio]

Shame

[supersunbird]

Who the hell are you to tell me to leave the topic!? If you don't like my point of view you can simply delete my post you d!cktator!!

it wont be the first time my posts get deleted!

Dude, still cant answer a simple question, which province do you life in?

Either you live in Cape Town and can bitch and moan about it being racist, or in Pretoria and tell us the name change is good or somewhere else and you can just give your opinion (with less weight since you are not personally affected).

If the ANC and the previous city government really cared about the people (whatever race) they would have done things properly and by the book and with no corruption robbing the people of housing. So is the ANC also racist?

[icyrus]

Who the hell are you to tell me to leave the topic!? If you don't like my point of view you can simply delete my post you d!cktator!!

it wont be the first time my posts get deleted!

Its a valid request considering that you add nothing to the thread but trolling.

[BTTB]

Who the hell are you to tell me to leave the topic!? If you don't like my point of view you can simply delete my post you d!cktator!!

it wont be the first time my posts get deleted!

Any respect I had for you has just flown out of the window.

I will not delete your post, but leave it there for all to see.

[kingmonty]

Who the hell are you to tell me to leave the topic!? If you don't like my point of view you can simply delete my post you d!cktator!!

it wont be the first time my posts get deleted!
BTTB posed nothing but valid questions to you! My word, you really are incapable of participating on a constructive, informative level. Oh, and for the record, the moderators delete threads/posts when they receive enough complaints about threads/posts - it is not personal. DOn't make your problems and inability to participate in debate personal here.

[Angelo]

Any respect I had for you has just flown out of the window.

I will not delete your post, but leave it there for all to see.
See if i care, your respect means nothing to me.

[kingmonty]

See if i care, your respect means nothing to me.
What are you contributing to this forum exactly? Stirring and causing trouble with nonsensical, ill-thought out and significantly flawed arguments that appears to be nothing more than posted to insite racially tense arguments is not, IMHO, contributing in any way.

Edit: And why do you choose to derail all the threads that have debates about government and former governments here?

[neio]

Edited for personal attack.

[kingmonty]

A look back at locked threads will show you that it's always right wing people like you who get threads locked because you can't tolerate differing views.
I tolerate a lot, but I've certainly had enough of you. Lest we forget, you derailed my thread

[Tassidar]

A look back at locked threads will show you that it's always right wing people like you who get threads locked because you can't tolerate differing views.

Angelo, I am asking you again to keep ad-hominem attacks out of your postings. If you do not know what this means, please refer to the my thread in "off topic" about argumentative flaws.

Edit: Neio, the same applies to you.

Please guys, lets at least try to keep this thread civilised.

[pip]

Who the hell are you to tell me to leave the topic!? If you don't like my point of view you can simply delete my post you d!cktator!!

it wont be the first time my posts get deleted!

I must say that BTTB, in my limited time on Myadsl, has come across as one of the most level headed, tolerant, interesting, and rational contributors. Which is probably why he is a mod. Your tantrum quoted above is juvenile, uncalled-for and out of place. I suggest an apology.

[Tassidar]

I must say that BTTB, in my limited time on Myadsl, has come across as one of the most level headed, tolerant, interesting, and rational contributors. Which is probably why he is a mod. Your tantrum quoted above is juvenile, uncalled-for and out of place. I suggest an apology.

I fully agreee with this sentiment.

[kilo39]

Maybe Angelo would like to explain the R470 million missing from the department of housing - money for housing the poor people - seems some people are more important than other people in this country - especially if you work for the government and have direct access to the budget - for the benefit of all your dead relatives and friends.

[Angelo]

I must say that BTTB, in my limited time on Myadsl, has come across as one of the most level headed, tolerant, interesting, and rational contributors. Which is probably why he is a mod. Your tantrum quoted above is juvenile, uncalled-for and out of place. I suggest an apology.
As warm and likeable your uncle BTTB might be he has no right to tell me to "butt off" a thread, I give respect to those who respect me too.

[Angelo]

Maybe Angelo would like to explain the R470 million missing from the department of housing - money for housing the poor people - seems some people are more important than other people in this country - especially if you work for the government and have direct access to the budget - for the benefit of all your dead relatives and friends.
If I was a spokesman for the Department of Housing I would be more than willing to explain those missing millions.

[ignacio]

/OT

There is strange notion of thread "ownership" conveyed in this thread. Calling threads mine or telling people to butt out of my threads is inane. No - you posted in a public space and each of us has our own take on what you posted. If you want your own thread, keep it in your head, where it no doubt deserves to be anyway.

[kingmonty]

As warm and likeable your uncle BTTB might be he has no right to tell me to "butt off" a thread
Actually that's where you're wrong. He has full right to tell you whatever he wants. If you don't comply, he has full rights to delete whatever you post.

I give respect to those who respect me too. :rolleyes:

[kingmonty]

/OT

There is strange notion of thread "ownership" conveyed in this thread. Calling threads mine or telling people to butt out of my threads is inane. No - you posted in a public space and each of us has our own take on what you posted. If you want your own thread, keep it in your head, where it no doubt deserves to be anyway.
I disagree: if someone simply posts nonsense to insite others into an irrelevant argument, then ownership should prevail, at least to the point ot restore order.

[Tassidar]

As warm and likeable your uncle BTTB might be he has no right to tell me to "butt off" a thread, I give respect to those who respect me too.

Respect can only go so far.

You win respect from those around you. Making outrageous statements that have no backing whatsoever, for the sole purpose of trolling is not a way to win the respect of you fellow forumites.

For my own part, since you have repeatedly shown the complete inability to debate rationally with me, and have never been able to defend a single viewpoint when challenged, I will say that I have lost respect for you. I think this sentiment applies to just about every other member of this forum.

If you wish to be treated with respect by members of this forum, I would suggest you follow my advice.

If your purpose on this forum has been to try to convince fellow forumites as to the validity of your point of view, I am afraid that you have had the exact opposite effect.

[lilDeath]

IMO, a mod is perfectly entitled to request individuals from leaving a topic if they are derailing / hijacking / trolling a thread.
Especially if that is their purpose by not adding any constructive debate or input relative to the topic.

[ignacio]

IMO, a mod is perfectly entitled to request individuals from leaving a topic if they are derailing / hijacking / trolling a thread.
Especially if that is their purpose by not adding any constructive debate or input to the topic.Agreed - that is a mod's job. For the rest who think they "own" threads .... pffft

[Angelo]

/OT

There is strange notion of thread "ownership" conveyed in this thread. Calling threads mine or telling people to butt out of my threads is inane. No - you posted in a public space and each of us has our own take on what you posted. If you want your own thread, keep it in your head, where it no doubt deserves to be anyway.
100% right.

[pip]

I give respect to those who respect me too.

Well then you obviously don't give respect to many. I suggest you stop trolling all the time, and stop being rude to those who are widely- and well-respected on the forum. If that is not clear, try this - stop throwing baby tantrums.

[lilDeath]

/hands pip a *UR DE MAN* award
:D

[Vio]

Hmm interesting read, like I said this is good for the city of capetown, it is not that good for the DA since they nolonger have the opertunity to expose further ANC corruption and miss conduct and at the same time the ANC will punt this as if the DA "couldn't handle it". The truth is the ANC are just trying to save their own reputation, which is hecticly in decline I might add(atleast from my perception).

[BTTB]

Hmm interesting read, like I said this is good for the city of capetown, it is not that good for the DA since they nolonger have the opertunity to expose further ANC corruption and miss conduct and at the same time the ANC will punt this as if the DA "couldn't handle it". The truth is the ANC are just trying to save their own reputation, which is hecticly in decline I might add(atleast from my perception).
ANC welcomes Zille's removal from N2 Gateway (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=qw115038792296B221)

It is amazing how the ANC blatantly lie about Zille's involvement.

The project was transferred from the City of Cape Town on the 28th of February already.
The reason why Zille and The City Council had to deal with the matter is they were presented with some rather hefty bills running into tens of millions of Rands from Developers which they know very little about.
What started out as a query as to why so much money is needed for these projects and why they have overrun their budgets is met with "smoke" and dagger tactics from the ANC.
The smoke to cover up the fire and the dagger to plant in Zille's back with constant unfounded media reports.
The ANC are trying to cover up a some very serious abuse of Public Money. That's all I read into it.

What really pisses me off is that 3 to 4 years ago when the National Party handed the City of Cape Town to the ANC on a platter, they took our Ward's Capital Budget of R6.5Million and apparently spent it in the previously disadvantaged areas?
We were spun a cock and bull story about this and that, but we learnt to live without the new road that would have brought new business and welcome relief for the area. The story to long tell here.

One can clearly see that our money was squandered.
As did these previously disadvantaged areas get the money?
Was it applied in an appropriate manner?
Nobody, not even the Local Authority here knows.
The money was simply whisked off to places unknown.
Even letters and faxes to The Mayor and City Manager were unanswered.

Now 3 to 4 years later we are still in the planning stage, but other areas in Cape Town like the Northern Suburbs are enjoying boom time, while our areas are still living with roads from Noah's Ark days.
Businesses are moving out either because they are struggling or simply because the Sheriff has cleaned them out already.
It is not funny to witness The Sheriff arriving at a Local Business loading up the man's furniture and stock, while the staff and the public look on in amazement.
Many of these business people were young coloured folk that are just trying their hardest to meek out a living, but are finding it difficult to even meet their rental commitments and within 6 to 12 months they are bankrupt.
That New Road could have meant the difference of an extra thousand jobs and maybe many business people may not have gone bust in the interim?

One looks at all these huge amounts of money just floating around and one asks these people that thought it was prudent to steal our Capital Budget, wtf did they think they were trying to prove?
Not as if our area didn't produce ten times that small budget in Rates and Taxes in a year.
Really makes me mad. :mad:
So much time, effort and money wasted all because of politicians.

Politics in Local Government has become counter productive.
If the Council Officials were just left with the tasks they are employed to do, things would be a lot different.

[kingmonty]

BTTB: this makes me so mad. When I left CT 3.5 years ago (grew up there, miss it madly), everything was so promising there. I went back for a few weeks a little while ago and I nearly had a heart attack of how bad some things got there :eek: To me this is a case in point of how the ANC messed up a good thing down in CT :mad:

[BTTB]

BTTB: this makes me so mad. When I left CT 3.5 years ago (grew up there, miss it madly), everything was so promising there. I went back for a few weeks a little while ago and I nearly had a heart attack of how bad some things got there :eek: To me this is a case in point of how the ANC messed up a good thing down in CT :mad:
If I can add a bit more to my story above.

A Development that was all set to go, with the long tedious planning stages completed was shelved as the Rezoning had now lapsed after two years.
This expiry date was October last year.
The approved Development was 60 Shops, a Garage and 500-600 Parking Bays.
I spoke with the Planner and he confirmed that the shelving of the Road Development by the previous ANC Council was the reason.

The irony of the story goes further as jobs and opportunities in the area have been lost and shoppers are flocking instead to the Northern Suburbs like Canal Walk and N1 City, but further to that, The Operator of the Project a BEE Company might I add, lost out on a Golden Opportunity.
And all that for a few million that was only a small proportion of what the residents and business people in the area pay in a month.
Really a pathetic show from the previous Mayor and City Manager.
I hope they never have any say over our City again.

[kingmonty]

Really a pathetic show from the previous Mayor and City Manager.
I hope they never have any say over our City again.
I really hope so.