Cellular Industry Truths

[JTech]

Hi all

As some of you may know I worked in the cellular industry for a couple of years. I am pleased that this section was opened up on the forum and what I now would like to do is post all my knowledge and experience here.

Over the next few weeks I will post a lot of info, some of it technical, to do with software issues, de-branding, data cables, and other topics. I will also be posting some informative articles about cellular repair procedure so that you, the consumer out there can avoid being ripped-off or worse, conned out of a phone that could have been repaired but has been deemed "liquid damaged" because some incompetent stuffed up the board.

When I worked in the industry I was a specialist up to level 5 on Motorola products and a Level 4 Technician on Nokia. Nokia remains my favourite product, they are generally good products with lots of industry standard within. Motorola chose to do all sorts of funny tricks and tried to keep using the old M68000 processor in every phone they could as well as huge chips that do very little, not to mention bizzarre protocols and a security mechanism that goes bad if a single bit in EEPROM cannot be read.

I will not entertain or respond to topics such as IMEI editing as that is illegal to do. With a related issue, SIM locking, it is my view that a phone should not be SIM locked but I also do not want to attract legal implications to this forum therefore no discussions will be answered about that. If you want info about these topics, Google is your friend as well as the various GSM forums overseas.

Regards,
JTech

[MadAtter]

lol @ liquid damage.
my sister dropped her fone in the sink and we tried to dry it immediatly. it didnt work when we tried it so we took it to a vodashop in sandton. we told them it was liquid damaged and they said "ok we'll take a look". unbeknownst to them, i had already removed the battery. 5 DAYS LATER!!! they call and say we can fetch it. we go there and we are told that it will never work again and the salesman immediatly tried to sell us a new phone. we were a bit bummed. we went home and tried our "never-gona-work-again fone one last time. i put the battery in.... and u guessed it, IT WORKS! makes one wonder

[bwana]

IIRC Motorola - at least the Razr - has a liquid sensitive indicator under the battery that changes colour when it gets wet. Dot turns red - warranty voided.

Edit - Red dot (http://www.nwcn.com/sharedcontent/ptech/generalstories2/020406ccdrptechbrokephone.77a61274.html)

[lilDeath]

nice JTech :)
Just a question if I may... Since you mention that you worked in the cell industry, how up to date are you with the latest stuff?
How do you manage to keep yourself up to date?
Thanks

[dominic]

awesome JTech - look foward to hearing more

[JTech]

how up to date are you with the latest stuff?
How do you manage to keep yourself up to date?


I get new phones to play with often. Some I buy and some I borrow. Also I have still got contact with a bunch of people I worked with who still work at the companies I worked at.

I am also a member of a private group overseas and that also helps, especially when sourcing firmwares for phones which is very useful to get rid of that vodafone live ****.

I am currently playing with the N70 and the Sony Ericsson K300i. K300i is a no-no for 3G and is notoriously slow with MMS, am investigating if my handset is dodgy or if they all do that.

As for liquid damage, a phone will generally work if it is dried after it got wet. The problem is that corrosion sets in and gets into the vias of the board, under chips- places where it's not so easy to dry. I have a Nokia 7250i that fell into a bath and while it works, it drops calls and the keypad is dodgy, some buttons have to be pressed really hard to get a response, and they cleaned that board so well you'd never say it was liquid damaged. However I know where to look and low and behold it's rusted in some strategic places as well as rust marks on the inside plastics.

There is a good chance of saving a phone if, as soon as possible after it got wet, you strip the thing down to the bare board (including removing all plastic parts on the PCB such as keypads and LCD's) and maintain that board in an oven at no more than 90 degrees C for 1 1/2 hour. The battery must be removed IMMEDIATELY when your phone falls into water, as the current in the battery accelerates corrosion on all the points that have power on them.

Despite the above, some phones just don't work the same after getting wet, this is due to the water altering the characteristics of some RF components.

Now, there is another thing to be aware of that may look like liquid damage and it actually isn't. Most component level repairs are done with hot air pencils/heat guns and involve application of liquid flux to the board. When the job is done the board needs to be cleaned with a special cleaning solution. Some backyard repair shops and some incompetent technicians fail to clean this flux off. Left for about 2-4 weeks the flux crystallizes into white powdery substance and will corrode metal surfaces. Some other technician opens a phone and sees this and immediately thinks it's liquid damage.

Liquid Damage as an excuse:

Some dodgy outfits, and, sadly some legit outfits use this as an excuse to to cover up incompetence. You can become a cellular technician with just a matric and in my time I have seen some of the biggest idiots pass through the workshop. What happens is one of these people tries to fix a phone and no-one has time to help train him 'cos everyone has to make target and so he ends up stuffing up the PC board of the customer's phone, usually lifting the tracks or burning a hole in the PCB or blowing components off. To cover arses they then send the phone back to the customer as "liquid damage" because that way the customer cannot bring the phone back again and problem solved for the idiot who messed up the phone.

[Debbie]

JTech I'm glad you will now have an outlet for your knowledge that can be used to benefit a lot of people.

[noxibox]

bit bummed. we went home and tried our "never-gona-work-again fone one last time. i put the battery in.... and u guessed it, IT WORKS! makes one wonder
Equipment like this will generally work again once it is completely dry.

I seem to remember it is even better if you submerge it in a hygrophobic liquid to get the water off.

[lilDeath]

:cool: Good stuff JTech! :D

[JimM]

I get new phones to play with often. Some I buy and some I borrow. Also I have still got contact with a bunch of people I worked with who still work at the companies I worked at.

I am also a member of a private group overseas and that also helps, especially when sourcing firmwares for phones which is very useful to get rid of that vodafone live ****.

I am currently playing with the N70 and the Sony Ericsson K300i. K300i is a no-no for 3G and is notoriously slow with MMS, am investigating if my handset is dodgy or if they all do that.

As for liquid damage, a phone will generally work if it is dried after it got wet. The problem is that corrosion sets in and gets into the vias of the board, under chips- places where it's not so easy to dry. I have a Nokia 7250i that fell into a bath and while it works, it drops calls and the keypad is dodgy, some buttons have to be pressed really hard to get a response, and they cleaned that board so well you'd never say it was liquid damaged. However I know where to look and low and behold it's rusted in some strategic places as well as rust marks on the inside plastics.

There is a good chance of saving a phone if, as soon as possible after it got wet, you strip the thing down to the bare board (including removing all plastic parts on the PCB such as keypads and LCD's) and maintain that board in an oven at no more than 90 degrees C for 1 1/2 hour. The battery must be removed IMMEDIATELY when your phone falls into water, as the current in the battery accelerates corrosion on all the points that have power on them.

Despite the above, some phones just don't work the same after getting wet, this is due to the water altering the characteristics of some RF components.

Now, there is another thing to be aware of that may look like liquid damage and it actually isn't. Most component level repairs are done with hot air pencils/heat guns and involve application of liquid flux to the board. When the job is done the board needs to be cleaned with a special cleaning solution. Some backyard repair shops and some incompetent technicians fail to clean this flux off. Left for about 2-4 weeks the flux crystallizes into white powdery substance and will corrode metal surfaces. Some other technician opens a phone and sees this and immediately thinks it's liquid damage.

Liquid Damage as an excuse:

Some dodgy outfits, and, sadly some legit outfits use this as an excuse to to cover up incompetence. You can become a cellular technician with just a matric and in my time I have seen some of the biggest idiots pass through the workshop. What happens is one of these people tries to fix a phone and no-one has time to help train him 'cos everyone has to make target and so he ends up stuffing up the PC board of the customer's phone, usually lifting the tracks or burning a hole in the PCB or blowing components off. To cover arses they then send the phone back to the customer as "liquid damage" because that way the customer cannot bring the phone back again and problem solved for the idiot who messed up the phone.

I do take issue to the term "backyard repair shops" just because someone chooses not to pay R4000 per month rent for a shop front so that they may keep their charges as reasonable as possible instead, it does not follow that the service given will be less than that offered by the "big boys"!

I have in fact repaired more "it'll never work again" handsets that have been returned back to customers by the "big boys" than those who come directly to me! The big boys don't really want to know anything that's been dunked into any liquid...

On liquid damage, if its clean water taking the battery out and letting the phone dry will often work. For cases such as sea water and orange juice, coke, Sprite etc., if the handset is soaked in the stuff take the battery out and run it under fresh water! Sounds a drastic move but you'd be supprised how quick these liquids can rot a handset, more so if you warm the thing up with a hairdryer!!

Anyone in the cellular repair trade who does not clean flux off (any sort of flux) is not a professional and should be taken outside and shot... You need to clean the flux off to inspect that the repair has actually been a success!

The only "target" that I have is to get the customers handset working again. If you repair 60 items a day, you'll get 30 back! Repair handsets to the standard that they should be repaired and you'll seldom see one come back!

The K300i does not have 3G or EDGE and it'll be very s-l-o-w against a N70! Unless you mean the K800i? Even this does not have EDGE and will be very slow if your 3G signal drops the handset back to 2G.

[The Guy]

IIRC Motorola - at least the Razr - has a liquid sensitive indicator under the battery that changes colour when it gets wet. Dot turns red - warranty voided.

Edit - Red dot (http://www.nwcn.com/sharedcontent/ptech/generalstories2/020406ccdrptechbrokephone.77a61274.html)


Yeah most devices have them ... I call it the pregnancy test ... Most of the time it is sweaty hands and sweat from your face that actually nails the device ...
Liquid damged devices are not normally repaired for the simple fact that no warrantee can be offered for these types of repairs ... the device might be able to work for a day or a couple of months ... or not at all ...

[jacqvt]

JTech, you said you'll give info on debranding too. I have a Motorola V360v, and would like to debrand it. Where do I go and how do I do it. I don't wanna mess up my phone. Thanks

[RichardS]

I am currently playing with the N70 .

I am intrigued. Why play with a phone which is not at the front end of the current wave? And it seems to have drawn a lot of criticism for "bugs" on various forums.

The reason that I am asking is that I currently have a Nokia 6680, and the Nokia N70 looks so similar, and has very similar specs, although is a little more advanced regarding camera, Symbian (8.1a compared to 8.0) and radio. I like my 6680 very much! It has done all that I have asked of it. I use it as a modem for my laptop when I am out of the office, and it has never missed a beat. I would be happy to keep it.

However, I am now overdue for an upgrade. I got the phone on my wife's contract originally and she is now demanding ownership, so I have to make a choice! I am looking at the N73, but tell me about the N70!

Thanks for being willing to share your knowledge and experience.

In fact, there are many others in this forum too who are willing to do the same, which I really appreciate.

[JimM]

I am intrigued. Why play with a phone which is not at the front end of the current wave? And it seems to have drawn a lot of criticism for "bugs" on various forums.

The reason that I am asking is that I currently have a Nokia 6680, and the Nokia N70 looks so similar, and has very similar specs, although is a little more advanced regarding camera, Symbian (8.1a compared to 8.0) and radio. I like my 6680 very much! It has done all that I have asked of it. I use it as a modem for my laptop when I am out of the office, and it has never missed a beat. I would be happy to keep it.

However, I am now overdue for an upgrade. I got the phone on my wife's contract originally and she is now demanding ownership, so I have to make a choice! I am looking at the N73, but tell me about the N70!

Thanks for being willing to share your knowledge and experience.

In fact, there are many others in this forum too who are willing to do the same, which I really appreciate.


I've tried the N70 and 6680. The latter wins hands down for me. The keypad is smaller on the N70 compaired to that of the 6680, not a huge issue unless you have fingers like prime pork sausages like me! However, the 6680 performs a lot better on 3G than the N70 and makes the transition from 3G to EDGE without loss of connection, but of course a noticable drop in speed. The N70 seems to hang onto the 3G network for dear life and often drops off rather than down-speed to edge.

I have not had chance to test the N73 but I have tried the 6234 and if you're happy to lose video calling, its a super handset with 3G/EDGE in a reasonable sized package and has a decent sized screen. In two days of use it performed as well as the 6680. If you choose to go for the 6234 make sure that you don't get fobbed off with the 6233 which looks and feels a little tacky sat alongside the 6234.

[JimM]

JTech, you said you'll give info on debranding too. I have a Motorola V360v, and would like to debrand it. Where do I go and how do I do it. I don't wanna mess up my phone. Thanks

To correctly "debrand" a Motorola V360v you'd need to flash the handset with the correct Flex file. It is NOT a job for those without knowledge of "flashing" cellular handsets plus of course the right equipment!

If its just the Startup and Closedown logo's that you want rid of, this can be done quite easily. Find a yourself a program called PK2Commander and ensure that you have the correct USB cable and appropriate drivers loaded. Once all is up and running you should see your V360v on your PC as a\ as if it were a flash disk (within P2KCommander) and you then need to located any file beginning with CUST (i.e. custwakeup.gif) and simply rename them rather than delete them (i.e. custwakeup.gif can be renamed zustwakeup.gif) - On NO ACCOUNT, NEVER, NEVER delete or rename any file that starts with Moto!! You can of course download and edit files like custwakeup.gif and custgoodbye.gif but you need to keep an eye on the file sizes, it will make your handset really slow if you replace the wakeup file (around 9K if I recall correctly) with a 120K gif file!!

Do be aware that your warrantry could be affected if you alter or tamper with these files!

[RichardS]

I've tried the N70 and 6680 .... I have not had chance to test the N73 but I have tried the 6234 .

Thanks for the feedback JimM. Will look at the 6234.

[Daniedj]

Yeah most devices have them ... I call it the pregnancy test ... Most of the time it is sweaty hands and sweat from your face that actually nails the device ...
Liquid damged devices are not normally repaired for the simple fact that no warrantee can be offered for these types of repairs ... the device might be able to work for a day or a couple of months ... or not at all ...

Question:

In very humid areas ie coastal towns/cities. How big a risk is sweat and humidity?

Cause lately I've noticed that my phone became unstable even though it was never dropped on the ground or got Wet.

But I'm talking a lot and the phone normally is sweaty when I put it down. I don't use covers for my phones since I carry them inside my pocket rather than in a pouch clipped to my belt.

[JimM]

My workshop is 100m from the sea and I only get phones back that have been obviously dropped into the water. As a guide most electronic equipment should handle 80% non-condensing humidity. So a hot sweaty day should not pose a problem. Talking outside in winter for an hour and then going into say a bathroom filled with steam could do some harm.

On handsets that become a little unstable after some use its always worth trying a factory reset. Do backup all numbers and pictures etc., as you may lose them! Some handsets just don't like working when the memory gets a bit clogged up!

[Shanegsm]

Sim unlocking or security code is legal in SA

[JimM]

Sim unlocking or security code is legal in SA

I'm not sure how this fits into the thread?

SIM Cloning (copying) is indeed illegal in SA.

Changing the IMEI of a handset is also illegal in SA.

Resetting a security code (given proof of ownership) is not illegal anywhere in the world!

If you mean Network Unlocking (for SIM Unlocking) this to is NOT illegal in SA.

[RichardS]

Has the truth been supressed?