Smokers cost SA business billions

[bwana]

South Africans who smoke more than a pack of cigarettes a day, feel unhealthy for 7,3 out of every 30 days and are costing their employers millions, according to a medical risk management specialist.

This was revealed on Monday at the HealthFocus Seminar held in Cape Town. The seminar was sponsored by Personal Finance and Discovery Health.

“Many employers are only now realising the incredible benefit to having healthy employees,” said Dr Craig Nossel, Head of the Clinical Vitality Programme for Discovery Health. “Up until now, many employers felt that the health of employees was a personal issue, and that they were only hiring their skills, but it has now become apparent that unhealthy employees are costing companies money. You cannot separate an employee’s skills from the person as a whole.”

Cost of absenteeism in SA sky high
The cost of absenteeism among employees to South African businesses is estimated at R12 billion per year.

He stressed that the costs of illness among employees could not only be measured by direct medical costs, such as medical scheme payouts, but that work absenteeism, and long-term and short-term disability were hidden costs in terms of productivity levels.

So-called presenteeism (where an employee is present, but unproductive, because of ill health) represented 63% of these hidden costs to a company. (http://www.health24.com/medical/Condition_centres/777-792-2002-2018,37145.asp)There was once a time that smoking was touted as being part of a healthy lifestyle.

[lilDeath]

Maybe the high absenteeism can be attributed to crappy employers and work environments... :rolleyes:

I wonder what the absentee rate is like at the Top 10 "Best companies to work for"

:cool:

[neio]

Maybe people smoke to cope with the stress of the said crappy work environment and could'nt give a rats arse what Discovery health thinks.
In the 4 years that I've been with the current company I've only taken 1 sick day and that was from a stomach bug, I made up the day I was off sick by working on the Saturday.

[stix]

I have a great work enviro - i still smoke, often with the big cheese.....yet to miss a day because of smoking....Besides...screwing a corporate company is a workers right because they will be screwing us for years to come.....

Pure BS !

[bwana]

If smoking isnt unhealthy and isnt costing companies money then what would the have to gain by saying it is?

[mynaamis]

There is no change you die of smoking in SA, some dum mother f$cker will blow your brains out before cancer has any chance.

[bwana]

There is no change you die of smoking in SA, some dum mother f$cker will blow your brains out before cancer has any chance.and then steal your smokes too :eek:

thats just low.

[pip]

and then steal your smokes too :eek:


LOL - well put, but sadly probably only too true!

[noxibox]

If smoking isnt unhealthy and isnt costing companies money then what would the have to gain by saying it is?
More importantly what's next? What other hazard or alleged hazard is going to be deemed a problem?

In which scientific journal has this research into the alleged costs due to smokers been published?

I've personally not seen higher absenteeism or lower productivity amongst the people who smoke.

And remember those who do smoke contribute a significant amount in taxes for the privilege.

[bwana]

More importantly what's next? What other hazard or alleged hazard is going to be deemed a problem?

In which scientific journal has this research into the alleged costs due to smokers been published?

I've personally not seen higher absenteeism or lower productivity amongst the people who smoke.

And remember those who do smoke contribute a significant amount in taxes for the privilege.Is it your contention that smoking doesnt lead to illness and that the cost of that isnt carried by someone?

[neio]

All company's ultimate aim is to keep the shareholders happy.
1. The company aims to pay as little as possible for as much work as possible.
2. All employee's ultimate aim is to do as little work as possible for as much money as possible.
Now tell me that I should stop smoking because it's decreasing the profits of the company that I work for. :P

[bwana]

All company's ultimate aim is to keep the shareholders happy.
1. The company aims to pay as little as possible for as much work as possible.
2. All employee's ultimate aim is to do as little work as possible for as much money as possible.
Now tell me that I should stop smoking because it's decreasing the profits of the company that I work for. :PBut should an employer pay or contribute to your medical insurance if you're knowingly damaging your health? Much like life insurers not wanting to insure extreme sports enthusiasts.

BTW - just so its clear I'm not anti-smoking - just saw the article this morning and felt like kicking the hornets nest today :)

[pip]

Smoking is an extension of eating - the nicotine bit of daily nutrition intake. Other forms of eating also cause absenteeism - try that prawn curry at Joe's Curry Tavern if you don't agree! If smoking causes illness who is carrying the cost except me? Manto certainly ain't! The only sickness I ever get is flu, which is hardly caused by Texans!

[neio]

Lets list all the things in the world that is bad for your health shall we.
The most prominent would probably be a stressfull work environment, that is seriously detrimental to your health seeing as it causes heart attacks and migranes. The people who do this kind of research should really get a frikken life. That's why Im going on walkabout for a year. To aim for something higher than where I currently am.

[noxibox]

Is it your contention that smoking doesnt lead to illness and that the cost of that isnt carried by someone?
Firstly research like this is not as easy to carry out as it might at first seem.

How many companies were surveyed?
What are the working conditions?
What is the incidence of smoking at each company?
Are smokers off sick more often at every company? If not, why not?
Are smokers less productive when they are at work? If they're more productive does this counter the cost of their added sick days?
Are smokers less likely to exercise? Are the ones that do exercise off sick more often than non-smokers?
Are smokers more likely to have a generally unhealthy lifestyle? How often are non-exercising non-smokers off sick?

It is possible for instance for the results of a study like this to be skewed by some companies having a higher percentage of smokers than average and that might be symptomatic of something, for instance perhaps it is a poor work environment or high stress. Then we suddenly have to consider that maybe its not the smoking, but something else.

Unless it is being published in an established, peer-reviewed journal I am going to doubt the rigor of the research.

Also this report jumps from talking about smokers to talking about absenteeism in general and what it costs. The implication is to blame all this on smoking.

Smoking is established to be harmful, but smokers do pay extra taxes. So outside the work environment we are not entitled to point fingers at them for added medical costs.

There is no such thing as medical insurance in South Africa anymore, unless you already had a policy before they were outlawed. Even if there were nothing stops a company from paying only the amount a non-smoker would pay. Similarly for medical aid.

It seems odd that at every company where I have worked the people that smoked were almost never off sick. And did not appear to be off more than non-smokers.

And I still have to wonder what's next? Will the next thing be something with merely tenuous alleged health implications?

[bwana]

Even the tobacco industry admits smoking causes fatal diseases so its not hard to see how illnesses caused by smoking would lead to a loss in productivity.
Cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases in smokers. Smokers are far more likely than non-smokers to develop diseases such as lung cancer. There is no such thing as a "safe" cigarette. (http://www.philipmorrisinternational.com/PMINTL/pages/eng/smoking/S_and_H.asp)I'd love to hear how employees suffering from "lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases" would benefit a company. :rolleyes:

[dam]

I used to get flu about two to three times a year on average but since i quit smoking 3 years ago I have not had flu once, go figure!
From my experience smoking does not help with stress, well, it does relieve the stress of going through withdrawls but nothing more than that. I am much healthier now and as a result actually deal with stress better.
Oh, and I get more work done 'cause im not running off for a 10 minute smoke break every half an hour.

[noxibox]

Even the tobacco industry admits smoking causes fatal diseases so its not hard to see how illnesses caused by smoking would lead to a loss in productivity.
I'd love to hear how employees suffering from "lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases" would benefit a company. :rolleyes:
All those are diseases that develop fairly late in your work life unless you are a very serious smoker. Like if you carry around cartons to make sure you have enough for the day.

Anyway none of the above in any way answers my query as to the rigor of the research carried out and the alleged costs to business of cigarette smokers specifically. Whether tobacco smoking over many decades results in fatal diseases is not really relevant. I agree that dead people are not very productive :rolleyes:

What about people who eat a lot of sweets? What do they cost the business in sick days? What about people who come to work with colds and flu instead of staying home? Are people who drive cars more or less sickly than those who use public transport?

I would further ask if smokers are less productive when they're working? Or are they more productive? If they're more productive does this balance out their sick time? Are they particularly more productive in their youth? Over their entire working life do they cost more or does it mostly balance out?

This is absolutely not the clear-cut case made out in the original quote. Let's see this research published in a proper journal and let's see it carried out again by other researchers.

[noxibox]

From my experience smoking does not help with stress, well, it does relieve the stress of going through withdrawls but nothing more than that. I am much healthier now and as a result actually deal with stress better.
Oh, and I get more work done 'cause im not running off for a 10 minute smoke break every half an hour.
Some people play with things, others chew pens. Some smoke cigarettes.

Other people get more work done because they're taking breaks.

How much do people's overall lifestyles factor into their health. Many times someone will change to an all-round more healthy lifestyle. Is the person that smokes, but exercises and eats well guaranteed to be less healthy overall than the one that doesn't smoke, eats poorly and whose exercise is pressing buttons on a remote control?

And let's say it turns out that smokers do, over their entire work life, cost more? Big deal, just give companies a smoker tax break. Maybe then we'll have only smokers need apply adverts! :D

[bwana]

I would further ask if smokers are less productive when they're working? Or are they more productive? If they're more productive does this balance out their sick time? Are they particularly more productive in their youth? Over their entire working life do they cost more or does it mostly balance out?Why would smokers be more productive? Especially in today's environment where smoking is prohibited in the work place. Should I ask the gaggle of employees I inevitably notice outside hi-fi corp how productive they're being?

[dam]

Is the person that smokes, but exercises and eats well guaranteed to be less healthy overall than the one that doesn't smoke, eats poorly and whose exercise is pressing buttons on a remote control?


I used to lift weights when i smoked, i quit smoking when one of my lungs colapsed and have stopped going to gym (doctors orders) so my lifstyle is less healthy now than when i used to smoke but I definetly feel more healthy and dont get sick anymore, so to answer your question (from my personal experience), yes, a unhealthy non-smoker is healthier than a healthy smoker.

I dont have anything against smokers and dont want to come accross as a preacher just cause i quit but having been on both sides of the fence i can look back objectivly and say that smoking didnt help me be a better person in anyway at all.

[rsachoc]

OT: guys, go see "Thank you for smoking" excellent flick exploring some of the same issues being discussed here

[Dave A]

I'd love to hear how employees suffering from "lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema and other serious diseases" would benefit a company. :rolleyes:They don't take as much out of the pension fund as healthy people.


I agree that dead people are not very productive :rolleyes:They're also not much of a drain on the payroll.


What about people who eat a lot of sweets? What do they cost the business in sick days? What about people who come to work with colds and flu instead of staying home? Now we're talking. What else can we add to this list.... I know!

What's the cost to business arising from unprotected sex?

[LoneGunman]

anyone worked out how much the airborne carcinogenic particles from car exhaust fumes and pollution, impact on the workforce?

this is a bogus report - trying to suggest that cigarettes are the sole culprit, or even 'a main contributor' to lack of productivity or 'having a financial impact'
- when everyone is staggering around in a thick chemical soup - smokers and non smokers alike - is bizarre. Like putting an elastoplast on a sucking chest wound.

untreated car exhaust fumes poison everyone (think of how tired you feel after being stuck in traffic - even though you've done no real 'exercise' to justify the tiredness - that's the effects of poisoning ) yet we're supposed to line up like sheep to join in the whining over the side effects of smoking?

[bwana]

anyone worked out how much the airborne carcinogenic particles from car exhaust fumes and pollution, impact on the workforce?Has anyone or are you simply speculating?

[LoneGunman]

what speculation? That car exhaust pollution might/is causing cancers and far more days off to SA business than cigarettes? This is self evident - however its not in the interests of the economy to clamp down on it - rather let people die for supposedly unknown reasons - and point to cigarettes as if the thick chemical fog on the highways has no effect whatsoever on the human system.

Given that a car exhaust in a confined space can and will kill you within perhaps 45 minutes - its fairly obvious that this degree of toxicity times x million vehicles, 24/7 - is going to have an impact on health, DNA, sickness, and thus 'productivity'.
Again - I point out that if you've ever been in traffic jams, and felt 'tired' afterwards - you're exhibiting symptoms of being poisoned.

(I find it funny watching joggers running alongside busy roads, supposedly being 'healthy' - they're opening their lung capacity nicely to allow carcinogenic particles to lodge even more deeply than the 'less healthy' - which will probably deliver them cancer within 10-15 years..)
(Again, I doubt that anyones done a controlled experiment to compare cancer rates with joggers who exercise alongside roads vs non joggers vs indoor exercisers. The results would have serious implication for modern economic systems.)

Never mind the fact that SA has one of the highest lead contents in petrol in the world, and (fun fact) lead is a toxin that - among other things - lowers IQ..

So 'concerns' over cigarettes - are firstly absurd, given the much wider poisonous chemical fog from exhaust fumes and industry thats blanketing SA - and I'd suggest, its more about 'control' than about any genuine remedy.

[pip]

Again - I point out that if you've ever been in traffic jams, and felt 'tired' afterwards - you're exhibiting symptoms of being poisoned.

I smoke heavily and am normally quite fine, but getting stuck in traffic next to the exhaust of a Putco bus and I start feeling ill pretty quickly!

I have always wondered about this as it relates to marathon race leaders. The camera truck invariably moves just in front of the leader of e.g. the Comrades. Is he not affected by the carbon monoxide and the fumes?

[bwana]

Controlling pollution is beyond the abilities of individuals (though I'm not denying that individuals can certainly do their part). Smoking on the other hand is something that an individual can directly do something about.

As I have mentioned before - pollution causes an estimated 3% of lung cancer cases in the UK - smoking causes up to 90%. (Source - Cancer Research UK (http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyliving/harmfulsubstances/airpollutionandradon/))

[chiskop]

I have always wondered about this as it relates to marathon race leaders. The camera truck invariably moves just in front of the leader of e.g. the Comrades. Is he not affected by the carbon monoxide and the fumes?

The trucks are equipped with snorkels to direct the exhaust away from the runners. Also there's not a lot of other traffic in the road at that time.

[noxibox]

I wouldn't exactly count lifting weights. I know it is exercise, but it isn't the same as cardiovascular when it comes to strengthening the heart and improving the lungs.

[noxibox]

As I have mentioned before - pollution causes an estimated 3% of lung cancer cases in the UK - smoking causes up to 90
This is true, but pretty much all of them are smokers, not non-smokers inhaling other people's smoke.

When it comes to strain on the heart and other systems the picture may be different. A big reason why inhaling cigarette smoke directly from a cigarette into your lungs stresses your body is that it deprives your body of oxygen. Breathing carbon monoxide fumes sitting in a car in traffic also reduces the available oxygen.

I wonder how much illness the London underground causes? It is absolutely horrible down there and there always seemed to be a permanent polution haze on the platforms.

[noxibox]

Why would smokers be more productive?
Nicotine!

Admittedly nicotine's benefits are somewhat reduced because smokers can no longer smoke constantly while they work.

[noxibox]

They don't take as much out of the pension fund as healthy people.
It's interesting that you mention that. It has been stated elsewhere that to some extent the added costs on welfare health while they're alive are mitigated by the fact that smokers are likely to die younger therefore costing less is state pensions and post-retirement medical care.

These things are never as simple as they at first appear.

[bwana]

Nicotine!

Admittedly nicotine's benefits are somewhat reduced because smokers can no longer smoke constantly while they work.Nicotine as a stimulant and as a depressant
Nicotine seems to provide both a stimulant and a depressant effect, and it is possible that the effect it has at any time is determined by the mood of the user, the environment and the circumstances of use. Studies have suggested that low doses have a stimulant effect, while higher doses have a depressant effect. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine)Seems like a crap-shoot which one you might get. Neither would make for an absolute increase in overall productivity.


It's interesting that you mention that. It has been stated elsewhere that to some extent the added costs on welfare health while they're alive are mitigated by the fact that smokers are likely to die younger therefore costing less is state pensions and post-retirement medical care.

These things are never as simple as they at first appear.For me at least the idea of living longer is simply my way of screwing the government :D

BTW - this multi-quote works like a charm :)

EDIT - and for the record I voted 'Most definately' - even though its definitely spelt incorrectly :p

[noxibox]

For those interested here is some more information on research into smoking-related work absence.

http://tc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/14/2/99

[noxibox]

Nicotine as a stimulant and as a depressant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine Seems like a crap-shoot which one you might get. Neither would make for an absolute increase in overall productivity.
Actually it sounds like some other other drugs, the effect depends on dose. So maybe less regular smoking as now practiced increases the stimulant benefit. The article linked refers to low doses having a stimulant effect. It merely says it is possible this depends on mood. Are smokers likely to be in a positive mood? Again is absenteeism higher at companies with unpleasant work environments? Bad vibe=nicotine being a depressant, maybe.

Stimulants not used to excess will increase productivity.

[TELESPHORE]

Been 2.5 years since I quit smoking. I don’t know what I would have been if I never smoked but the quit smoking had pro’s and con’s.

When smoking I think I was more productive until being forced to smoke outside the building, in a sort of line of shame. Lucky we were not forced to eat garlic and beetroot while smoking. If things got tricky and I needed to solve a complex problem, I would go to the smoking room and ponder. And strangely came back with a solution. Now I have to get up and walk around the office block and everybody thinks I am stealing time. When I smoked it was normal.

I do feel healthier, but missed smoking when this horrible flu hit me – 3 months of colds and coughs.

I miss my smoke when severe stress hits.

The worst is the gaining of weight. From 85 kg to 102 kg. Moving down to 99.5 now. Long way to go.

Smoking stimulates the thyroid gland and therefore increases ones metabolism. So if you eat the same you gain weight. Now try stopping to smoke and not munch.

Ok given I did do a lot of weight training before stopping smoking. Weights do build muscle tissue, but it is good cardio exercise if you have lots of repeats for more that 30 minutes. Believe me my trainer was a monster. Totally pasted after the hour.

Anyway I think smoking is a personal issue, but being without it ever is a better idea. It is though business own problem to have not protested and rebelled against the no smoking in buildings, that causes people to have to go outside and in effect waste 20 minutes.

I don’t think smokers are more sick than non smokers. It is possibly just other lifestyles that are more prevalent with smokers. Things like clubbing into the early hours of the morning comes to mind.

[Kimosabe]

Alot of ppl smoke and the cicles i work in all of them smoke. I find it helps with breaking the ice and being able to talk on a even par

[Highflyer_GP]

Alot of ppl smoke and the cicles i work in all of them smoke. I find it helps with breaking the ice and being able to talk on a even par

True it does help to eliminate any awkwardness in some weird way

[nocilah]

funny - we were talking the other day at work and found it amazing that most of the non-smokers were always absent cuz of ilness - ha ha ha.

if you ask me perhaps health specialist should focus on aids

[Nick333]

If smoking isnt unhealthy and isnt costing companies money then what would the have to gain by saying it is?

Smoking is undoubtedly bad for ones health. Smokers are likely to suffer serious health problems at some stage in their lives. Smokers on medical aids are more likely to cost their medical aids more than non-smokers.
Employed people are more likely to have medical aids than unemployed people. Its not hard to see why a medical aid would want to create a predjudice amongst employers towards smokers, seeing that they are probably not allowed to deny smokers coverage(or dont want to deny them). Easier and more PR friendly to contribute towards the unemployment of smokers with a spot of propoganda.

[Dave A]

A vehement anti-smoker TV presenter in New York started a street show trying to stop smoking.

His strategy was to stop every smoker, and ask a few questions.

Question 1: How many do you smoke a day?
Question 2: How long have you been smoking?
Question 3: How much do you spend a week?

He would then quickly calculate how much money they had wasted on their habit, and relate it to some object nearby, quite often a car.

All was going well until he hit the jackpot. Whilst working his way through the financial district, he came across a stroller smoking a cigar. So he stops said stroller and goes through his routine.

A quick calculation reveals the poor fellow had spent enough money on cigars to own the rather swish office block they were standing in front of.

So anyway, the stroller looks thoughtful for a moment, and from there the conversation went something like this:

Stroller: "So do you smoke?"
Presenter: "No sir. Not ever!"
Stroller: "So do you own that building, then?"
Presenter: "No sir - not on my salary" *giggle*
Stroller: "Thought as much, because last time I checked, I do"

[Nanfeishen]

Where's the busiest section of the restaurant?, -the smoking section. who spends more money in bars and clubs? -smokers.
Genarally smokers spend more money when going out than non-smokers.
As a rule , i can drive my car after 10 cigs and still be in control, I can smoke a packet and dont become beligerent, or go home to beat up the wife or kids.
And how many people are killed on the roads each year from smoking?
To be honest , i think it is a clever campaign to get kids to smoke, simple, smoking is anti-social, it is being rebelious, it is going against the wishes of parents and teachers, it is being cool, it is being grown up, it is saying i am a rebel, everything teens and youngsters do. AND by pushing up the price of cigarettes, the tobacco companies and the government get more revenue.

[stix]

// Nicotine and caffeine is the breakfast of champions
// if you don't believe me ask the shif

[dominic]

strue...really

but after hearing about it costing SA business so many billions, that's it....i quit

[chiskop]

Where's the busiest section of the restaurant?, -the smoking section. who spends more money in bars and clubs? -smokers.
Genarally smokers spend more money when going out than non-smokers.

Really? Do you have any proof for any of those assertions, or is it just what you think?

In most restaurants I visit, the smoking section is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the floor area - that to me suggests that non-smokers spend more.

In bars and clubs, I would guess that it is the drinkers that spend the most. Maybe there's a link between drinking and smoking, I don't know.

[spiderz]

freedom of choice. everyone should have that.

i personally never have smoked, and don't quite see the appeal of smoking.

[Chris]

In most restaurants I visit, the smoking section is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the floor area - that to me suggests that non-smokers spend more.

In bars and clubs, I would guess that it is the drinkers that spend the most. Maybe there's a link between drinking and smoking, I don't know.

Or that there are more non-smokers (w.r.t to the floor space). Or are you talking about total revenue and not money spent p/p?

Yeah there probably is some link between alcholism and smoking. Most people who like to drink alot, go to parties in which there surely must be a chance of smoking.

[bwana]

Where's the busiest section of the restaurant?, -the smoking section. who spends more money in bars and clubs? -smokers.
Genarally smokers spend more money when going out than non-smokers.
As a rule , i can drive my car after 10 cigs and still be in control, I can smoke a packet and dont become beligerent, or go home to beat up the wife or kids.
And how many people are killed on the roads each year from smoking?
To be honest , i think it is a clever campaign to get kids to smoke, simple, smoking is anti-social, it is being rebelious, it is going against the wishes of parents and teachers, it is being cool, it is being grown up, it is saying i am a rebel, everything teens and youngsters do. AND by pushing up the price of cigarettes, the tobacco companies and the government get more revenue.Ok - how much of that was completely made up? :rolleyes:

[simple_simon]

i believe the real issue hasn't been addressed at all.

why do people smoke in the first place?

i think the self destructive mentality of people which is linked to self worth issues needs to be addressed first.

why would a person knowlingly do something that is going to lead to poor health and more than likely a premature and painfull death (some form of cancer).

if people really start asking themselves "why do i smoke"... and confronting what the find out. significant progress would be made with people in general.

[Dave A]

i believe the real issue hasn't been addressed at all.

why do people smoke in the first place?Great comment.

Half of the answer is obvious - we're addicted. So the other half of the answer is the question "How did we become addicted?"

Now, after the puffy lips floating around about the Satanism thread, I'm not sure if I want to go into this in detail here, but it's about sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.

[IdlePhaedrus]

Personally I think hangovers contribute far more to absenteeism and loss of productivity than smoking <ducks>

[Highflyer_GP]

I started because it helped bring the stress levels down. Still does :)

[pip]

why do people smoke in the first place?

Because it's lekker!

That first warm surge through your limbs when you light up the first Texan in the morning, the sense of well-being, the clearing of the cobwebs in your head etc etc.

[simple_simon]

Great comment.

Half of the answer is obvious - we're addicted. So the other half of the answer is the question "How did we become addicted?"

Now, after the puffy lips floating around about the Satanism thread, I'm not sure if I want to go into this in detail here, but it's about sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.

this isn't a good enough answer.

why are you addicted? you were not oblivious to the fact that smoking is addictive before you started?

why did you start smoking in the first place?

[Nanfeishen]

Re: Bwana!!
Made up??? Ok:
I eat out at least twice a week , going to different restaurants whenever possible, yes generally the smoking area is smaller than the non in most restaurants, although in some i have found a nice 50/50 design, i never frequent a place that doesnt offer a smoking area, simple ,if they dont provide for me, they dont get my business.
Friends who have run restaurants all tell me the same thing, smokers spend more.
The best smoke is always after a meal, any smoker will attest to this, so you sit therefore you need a drink or coffee, then another smoke and definitly another drink, so the evening goes, the amount of times i see people come in, sit in non-smoking after us, and leave before us is so many, i stopped counting.
Secondly how many people die on our roads from alchohol? How many wives or girlfriends are beaten by drunk husbands or boyfriends? How many fights do you see as a result of drinking?
You definitly cant say the same for cigarettes.
As for my allergations on kids smoking, well, i was a rebelious teen, my friends were, my friends kids are , and many of their friends are, smoking was the "cool" thing to be rebel, , i never listened to the advice given, i knew better, i could control it , i knew what i was doing ,blah blah etc etc, the very same thing you hear when you ask the youngsters today why they smoke, it is anti social , it sets them apart, it makes them feel part of a group, (peer pressure), not many teens worry about 10 or 20 years down the line , they worry about next weekend or the next party, not longterm.
As to starting , my first was peer pressure after that it was my choice.
I involved in the health and fitness industry , i have been involved with martial arts for twenty two years, i hike and have been known to cycle occasionaly, my blood pressure is normal, my cholestral low, and my fitness better than most of my peers, AND i smoke, why?
My choice to freedom of expression, freedom of choice and the right to live my life as i choose, free from criticism or condemnation.
Put that in you pipe and smoke it!

[Dave A]

this isn't a good enough answer.

why are you addicted? you were not oblivious to the fact that smoking is addictive before you started?

why did you start smoking in the first place?Part of the addiction is, of course, chemical. Nicotine is documented as being nearly as addictive as (is it heroin or cocaine?).

The second part of the addiction is psychological, and is probably related to how/why you started.

In my instance smoking is psychologically connected to sex - and please don't ask me to go into details. Suffice I was a fairly rabid anti-smoker before, and a rather hopeless addict since.

And if you have never been a smoker, I understand that you might not understand.

As for being oblivious to the fact that it's addictive - almost everyone goes through some stage in their life when they think they're bullet proof. Besides, there is addictive like cough syrup, and then there's addictive like cigarettes. And it's hard to get a handle on the difference before you start.

[noxibox]

He would then quickly calculate how much money they had wasted on their habit, and relate it to some object nearby, quite often a car.
A friend of mine was spending the equivalent of R1200 a week on cigarettes in the UK.

On the other hand if you tally what you spend on any activity you enjoy, most of which provide nothing other than enjoyment, you will be appalled at what it costs you.

[LoneGunman]

to me the question of 'smoking' is actually about 'Control'.

DOES a State have the right to decide what constitutes 'health' for its citizens? And if a State chooses to interfere and control what it sees as 'unhealthy' behaviour - what does that say about the State in question?

I raise this coz its part of historical record, that the last State that began walking down the slippery slope of making its view of 'what constitutes health' 'legal' - ended up in a very dark place.

It was the Nazi's who began with laws covering anti-smoking, gun control, anti-gays, then elimination of the 'unhealthy' (ie mentally retarded) - and who began developing their unique idea of a worldwide 'terrorist conspiracy' against them, which resulted in the Holocaust..

The real issue, I think - instead of fumbling around in the corporate-semantic playing field of worrying about the 'cost effectiveness to the economy' of this or that behaviour - the real issue is about CONTROL of the individual, and if you allow a State to control behaviour #1, then its historically shown that the State will develop more and more things to control - until you reach a point of total organised insanity..

Perhaps real democracy is about providing your citizens with all the information on a subject, and then leaving it up to them whether they choose to live in a way that others may consider 'unhealthy'.

Being reduced to arguing over the financial effects of a behaviour, is to be using the language and meaning of the Corporations who clearly would prefer zombified human workers, who're just cogs in the machine of Industry. I find it absurd to be even bothering with concern over how many days off from work a behaviour causes - as if this is important and of meaning, to anyone other than Industry and Corporations.

I think its devious to be even floating the 'cost' of smoking as a serious supposed problem - given the mass poverty, starvation, crime, and industrial pollution that should surely be first on the agenda.

Therefore, if individuals participating in an addictive (and unhealthy) pastime, offends the State viewpoint of wanting a 'healthy' workforce - and the State has the sheer fascist nerve to be seeing this as more important than focusing its energy on righting the wrongs of having starving and homeless people under its care - well, it tells you everything you need to know about the actual reality of South Africa and its political structures - as well as how little the State actually cares.

[bwana]

Re: Bwana!!
Made up??? Ok:
I eat out at least twice a week , going to different restaurants whenever possible, yes generally the smoking area is smaller than the non in most restaurants, although in some i have found a nice 50/50 design, i never frequent a place that doesnt offer a smoking area, simple ,if they dont provide for me, they dont get my business.
Friends who have run restaurants all tell me the same thing, smokers spend more.

Ok - apart from the fact that nicotine is an appetite suppressant and therefore would in itself counter the argument that smokers spend more the not so surprising fact is that overseas studies have shown that banning smoking has lead to increased revenue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_ban#Effects_on_businesses and http://www.tobacco.org/Misc/rest.html attest to this. Fact is they dont need your business as there are more non-smokers these days than smokers.


The best smoke is always after a meal, any smoker will attest to this, so you sit therefore you need a drink or coffee, then another smoke and definitly another drink, so the evening goes, the amount of times i see people come in, sit in non-smoking after us, and leave before us is so many, i stopped counting.

Ok - thanks for pointing out another reason why restaurants thrive on a non smoking policy. People sitting around having a smoke and a coffee occupy a perfectly good table - covers are key. More people through the door = more money.


Secondly how many people die on our roads from alchohol? How many wives or girlfriends are beaten by drunk husbands or boyfriends? How many fights do you see as a result of drinking?
You definitly cant say the same for cigarettes.

OK - the relevance? Let me answer such a question with one of my own - how many drinkers fall asleep in bed with a beer and burn to death?? :rolleyes:


As for my allergations on kids smoking, well, i was a rebelious teen, my friends were, my friends kids are , and many of their friends are, smoking was the "cool" thing to be rebel, , i never listened to the advice given, i knew better, i could control it , i knew what i was doing ,blah blah etc etc, the very same thing you hear when you ask the youngsters today why they smoke, it is anti social , it sets them apart, it makes them feel part of a group, (peer pressure), not many teens worry about 10 or 20 years down the line , they worry about next weekend or the next party, not longterm.
As to starting , my first was peer pressure after that it was my choice.
I involved in the health and fitness industry , i have been involved with martial arts for twenty two years, i hike and have been known to cycle occasionaly, my blood pressure is normal, my cholestral low, and my fitness better than most of my peers, AND i smoke, why?

Seriously - you're going to play the smoking is cool card? Hate to break it to you but few people apart from 12 year old girls actually buy that these days. Consider also that non-smokers heal quicker.


My choice to freedom of expression, freedom of choice and the right to live my life as i choose, free from criticism or condemnation.
Put that in you pipe and smoke it!

Do I care if people smoke? Hell no - I just despise b.s. So here I'll give you credit - what you do is your choice as long as it doesnt impede on the rights of others to enjoy a healthy lifestyle .

[jabulani]

Therefore, if individuals participating in an addictive (and unhealthy) pastime, offends the State viewpoint of wanting a 'healthy' workforce - and the State has the sheer fascist nerve to be seeing this as more important than focusing its energy on righting the wrongs of having starving and homeless people under its care - well, it tells you everything you need to know about the actual reality of South Africa and its political structures - as well as how little the State actually cares.

Superb post LG - thanks.

[noxibox]

how many drinkers fall asleep in bed with a beer and burn to death?? :rolleyes:
They usually just choke on their own vomit. :rolleyes: too

[noxibox]

Healthism:
Death of Humane Medicine (http://www.tcd.ie/Community_Health/Skrabanek/Death-of-Humane-Medicine.pdf)

Others:
Follies and Fallacies in Medicine (http://www.tcd.ie/Community_Health/Skrabanek/Follies-and-Fallacies-in-Medicine-1up.pdf)
False Premises, False Promises (http://www.tcd.ie/Community_Health/Skrabanek/False-Premises-False-Promises.pdf)

[lilDeath]

i believe the real issue hasn't been addressed at all.

why do people smoke in the first place?

i think the self destructive mentality of people which is linked to self worth issues needs to be addressed first.

why would a person knowlingly do something that is going to lead to poor health and more than likely a premature and painfull death (some form of cancer).

if people really start asking themselves "why do i smoke"... and confronting what the find out. significant progress would be made with people in general.
So, tell me, how does it make you FEEL ... :D

[simple_simon]

So, tell me, how does it make you FEEL ... :D

i feel quite healthy, thanks for asking.

i don't smoke, never have never will.

self respect...self worth.....these are the issues ladies and gentlemen

how many people start smoking to be cool like their friends...(self worth)...one has to reconsider how you feel about yourself now....oh say when you were a teenager and started so that you were cool...you were insecure then about yourself...ask yourself if you are insecure now?

do you still have to apply past actions to present situations? i don't think so.

just a thought..use it don't use it

[noxibox]

why would a person knowlingly do something that is going to lead to poor health and more than likely a premature and painfull death
Because its fun. Because they enjoy it. There are many dangerous activities. Some people think they're great. Other people think those people are crazy. ;)

[Clipse]

Really? Do you have any proof for any of those assertions, or is it just what you think?

In most restaurants I visit, the smoking section is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the floor area - that to me suggests that non-smokers spend more.

In bars and clubs, I would guess that it is the drinkers that spend the most. Maybe there's a link between drinking and smoking, I don't know.

This is old news, ever since restaurants put up smoking barriers they have seen a steady decline in sales and attendancees.

This was in some article I read and it makes alot of sense really.

Think back, pre-smoking laws, majority of people would smoke in the restaurant and its a well known fact that booze is best way for restaurants to make alot of money, yet smokers also drink more on average than non-smokers.

[Clipse]

Really? Do you have any proof for any of those assertions, or is it just what you think?

In most restaurants I visit, the smoking section is about 1/4 - 1/3 of the floor area - that to me suggests that non-smokers spend more.

In bars and clubs, I would guess that it is the drinkers that spend the most. Maybe there's a link between drinking and smoking, I don't know.

This is old news, ever since restaurants put up smoking barriers they have seen a steady decline in sales and attendancees. At the same time, Take-Away joints went up hugely in sales, coincidence?

This was in some article I read and it makes alot of sense really.

Think back, pre-smoking laws, majority of people would smoke in the restaurant and its a well known fact that booze is best way for restaurants to make alot of money, yet smokers also drink more on average than non-smokers.

[bwana]

This is old news, ever since restaurants put up smoking barriers they have seen a steady decline in sales and attendancees.

This was in some article I read and it makes alot of sense really.

Think back, pre-smoking laws, majority of people would smoke in the restaurant and its a well known fact that booze is best way for restaurants to make alot of money, yet smokers also drink more on average than non-smokers.Yet restaurants in countries that have completely banned smoking in public areas report increased sales. Perhaps a complete banning is in order if they're worried about revenue?

[kilo39]

Plain Fact: we've survived on a carbon monoxide diet since we invented fire - anything else is unnatural! And nicotine - is a drug - with its attendant highs and lows - not least of which is the threat of death - but we dice death every day - it's called living.

[Claymore]

Plain Fact: we've survived on a carbon monoxide diet since we invented fire - anything else is unnatural! And nicotine - is a drug - with its attendant highs and lows - not least of which is the threat of death - but we dice death every day - it's called living.

However, I don't appreciate people who dice with death dicing with my comfort and health as well.

[NoRulez]

Re: Bwana!!
Secondly how many people die on our roads from alchohol? How many wives or girlfriends are beaten by drunk husbands or boyfriends? How many fights do you see as a result of drinking?
You definitly cant say the same for cigarettes.
Those figures will never be made public, as booze is a much bigger source of income for the government than cigarettes. Also creates more jobs, not only for the poorly paid farm workers, but also for al the medical and emergency people, not to mention the police force and all the advertising agencies!


A friend of mine was spending the equivalent of R1200 a week on cigarettes in the UK.
On the other hand if you tally what you spend on any activity you enjoy, most of which provide nothing other than enjoyment, you will be appalled at what it costs you.
Pack of cigarettes: R15.00 lasts on average one day.
One shot of Booze: R15.00+ lasts between 2 seconds (shooters) and 20 minutes (other drinks).
Go for a few drinks with "buddies" then add the cost of repairs to your car after an accident, lawsuits and traffic fines for driving under the influence and see the snowball effect!


OK - the relevance? Let me answer such a question with one of my own - how many drinkers fall asleep in bed with a beer and burn to death?? :rolleyes:
Much fewer, I think, than the ones who just get behind the wheels of their cars and kill other innocent road users...


However, I don't appreciate people who dice with death dicing with my comfort and health as well.
Then stay off the road too! Better still, stay at home and get robbed... :cool:
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread: "life is a dice"

I've been smoking for 26 years and don't claim that it is healthy at all, although there is nothing wrong with my health! I also do respect non-smokers and I refrain from smoking when in their company. If I do feel like a cigarette, I would excuse myself and have one in private.

To get back to the original thread - why is it costing SA Business billions?
Not because of absenteeism, rather due to legislation prohibiting smoking in the workplace - frequent smokebreaks = lost productivity, just like "legal" stikes, extended tea & lunchbreaks, and just plain incompetency. ;)

[bwana]

Much fewer, I think, than the ones who just get behind the wheels of their cars and kill other innocent road users...Yes - I know that - perhaps you didnt pick up on the sarcasm because of the context. I dont think anyone has ever burnt to death from a beer.

I didnt see the relevance of pointing out the damage/carnage drunk drivers cause in a thread about smokers and their health.