Great Bible quotes

[ghoti]

Got a great bible quote you wish to share with everyone? Well here is the place to post it!


Deut 25:11-12

11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.


http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Deut+25%3A11-12
and while on the subject of penis's...


Deut 23:1-2

23No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.

2 Those born of an illicit union shall not be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord.


http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Deut+23%3A1-2

What I found interesting about this forum is the word j e s u s is banned (*****), but the word penis is allowed.

[Debbie]

So the bible says that if your penis is damaged, then you are not allowed to go to christian church?

What a fantastic example of love and tolerance.

[Nokkie]

lol

[Flippit]

So the bible says that if your penis is damaged, then you are not allowed to go to christian church?

What a fantastic example of love and tolerance.

Jewish church... The book of Deuteronomy was written long before J esus arrived and rewrote all the rules :)

[ghoti]

Jewish church... The book of Deuteronomy was written long before J esus arrived and rewrote all the rules :)

The above is a blatant lie :(

If Flippit actually read the Bible he would know this. Flippit, if you are going to follow just the NT, please listen to what J esus says, and not what you think he says,


1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then ***** said so.


2) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --***** Christ, John 10:35

[Highflyer_GP]

A few that I managed to find contradictory yet amusing.

Regarding how many sons Abraham had:


Genesis 22:2
He said, "Now take your son, your only son, whom you love, even Isaac, and go into the land of Moriah. Offer him there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell you of."
http://bible.cc/genesis/22-2.htm

Hebrews 11:17
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his one and only son.
http://bible.cc/hebrews/11-17.htm

Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman.
http://bible.cc/galatians/4-22.htm

Genesis 25:1-2
Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/25.html

What about how many of each animal Noah was supposed to have taken onto the ark:


Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female.

Genesis 6:19
Of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark.
http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html

Also,


Exodus 33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.
http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html

More here: http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html

[Debbie]

So the bible says that if your penis is damaged, then you are not allowed to go to christian church?
What a fantastic example of love and tolerance.

Jewish church... The book of Deuteronomy was written long before J esus arrived and rewrote all the rules

Ok, j3sus, who's new rules include eternal condemnation to hell if you are not baptized-

"He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'"
(Mark 16:15-16)

Love and tolerance indeed.

[ghoti]

Ok, j3sus, who's new rules include eternal condemnation to hell if you are not baptized-

"He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.'"
(Mark 16:15-16)

Love and tolerance indeed.

Yup, its love love love love! NT is full of love. For instance, read this passge:


26‘Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Luke+14%3A26

[nocilah]

A few that I managed to find contradictory yet amusing.

Regarding how many sons Abraham had:
that was his first son before he bore more. Abraham lived to ripe old age.


What about how many of each animal Noah was supposed to have taken onto the ark:
dunno about this one.


Also,

More here: http://www.krysstal.com/contradi.html

um he spoke as if face to face like a friend...

you must have farmed these from american websites cuz the yanks can not read yet... after all they only have wars to learn geography. :)

[Highflyer_GP]

um he spoke as if face to face like a friend...
lol that's open to interpretation - to me face to face means face to face, you get to see the person (or being ;)) that you're speaking to. Unless you regard something like a phonecall as face to face because you talk "like a friend" to a friend.


you must have farmed these from american websites cuz the yanks can not read yet... after all they only have wars to learn geography. :)
Not really I have a whole bunch more from various sites but didn't exactly wanna flood the thread with them - would like to see other peoples quotes as well :)

[Debbie]

26‘Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

That cannot be right.... surely it has been misquoted....

the bible says that you have to HATE your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, and even life itself in order to be a disciple?

Are you sure this is right and not a biblical typo?

[ToxicBunny]

I reckon its probably not a typo...

*starts signing up to be a disciple right now*

[Kommedoor]

There is way too much to quote - just read for yourself:

www.evilbible.com

[nocilah]

Not really I have a whole bunch more from various sites but didn't exactly wanna flood the thread with them - would like to see other peoples quotes as well :)

mkay.

[TELESPHORE]

That cannot be right.... surely it has been misquoted....

the bible says that you have to HATE your father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters, and even life itself in order to be a disciple?

Are you sure this is right and not a biblical typo?

“Luke 14
The Cost of Being a Disciple
25Large crowds were traveling with J.e.s.u.s, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. “

Yes it stands so in the Bible and for a specific reason. It is the criteria the Son of God gave so the masses would not just follow Him for the sake of it. After the 12 nobody became a disciple. Even Paul was never regarded as a disciple.

The Son of God handpicked his disciples personally and they gave up their families and their life for him. Even Peter who denounced him before the crucifixion, died on a fiery upside down cross.

Caution: Never take a passage in the Bible and try to make a case of it. It is a complex book. I once answered on a post with contradictions and after following up found the Bible was either misquoted or that part was out of context.

Also another word of caution – be careful of the first book Genesis, as it is a summary of thousands of years of history condensed very compactly.

I have not read the Koran and should maybe do so. The same Genesis should be in the Koran also. Can anyone assist in this?

[TELESPHORE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flippit Jewish church... The book of Deuteronomy was written long before J esus arrived and rewrote all the rules
The above is a blatant lie

If Flippit actually read the Bible he would know this. Flippit, if you are going to follow just the NT, please listen to what J esus says, and not what you think he says,
Quote:
1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then ***** said so.2) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --***** Christ, John 10:35




“Matthew 5
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. “
Once again be careful in using single passages out of context. Also READ what the Son has to say. HE has come to fulfil the law – not abolish it. In short he gave a clear message – to be able to reach the Kingdom of God ON JUST THE LAW you would have to be even more an abider of the Law so your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees. The Alternative is Him and his teachings. That has been re-enforced in other of the Masters teaching.

Also:
“John 10
25***** answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but ***** said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34***** answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. “
DO NOT TAKE SINGLE SENTENCES and make them absolute. He put to the Jews who sought to kill him before the time God intended, a challenge.
If you cannot find it in you to believe in Him, then do not let

[Debbie]

Also another word of caution – be careful of the first book Genesis, as it is a summary of thousands of years of history condensed very compactly.

Genesis is a summary of thousands of years of history condensed very compactly - a statement entirely consistent with the theory of evolution.

[ghoti]

“Matthew 5
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. “
Once again be careful in using single passages out of context. Also READ what the Son has to say. HE has come to fulfil the law – not abolish it. In short he gave a clear message – to be able to reach the Kingdom of God ON JUST THE LAW you would have to be even more an abider of the Law so your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees. The Alternative is Him and his teachings. That has been re-enforced in other of the Masters teaching.

Also:
“John 10
25***** answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but ***** said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34***** answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. “
DO NOT TAKE SINGLE SENTENCES and make them absolute. He put to the Jews who sought to kill him before the time God intended, a challenge.
If you cannot find it in you to believe in Him, then do not let

So its okay to break the laws in old scripture and the old testament even though my understanding of the first passage says its not?


“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)


"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

It looks like J esus says its real important to obey the old testmanet to the letter.


"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

[TELESPHORE]

Genesis is a summary of thousands of years of history condensed very compactly - a statement entirely consistent with the theory of evolution.
Do not pull me into that one at all. It is not part of the debate and very off topic. If you want to debate evolution start another thread please – not on this one – thank you

[TELESPHORE]

So its okay to break the laws in old scripture and the old testament even though my understanding of the first passage says its not?







It looks like J esus says its real important to obey the old testmanet to the letter.

If you have a beef with Christianity and you are a Christian then sort it out with your local church. If you are of another believe say so and quote your believe. BUT do not quote half sentences and things out of context or attack other believes in a decretory and very insulting manner.

[antowan]

Interesting thread. I am a Christian and am of the opinion that the Bible as it is today may not be at all complete or fully understood in terms of its history. The church is very skiddish to discuss the discrepancies and expect people to simply understand or accept that the discrepancies are the will of God or something. That to me is unacceptable. These things need to be discussed and made clear.

The Universities have a great role to play here. The Theology departments of UP and UNISA for instance have been on many media forums explaining the Bible's inaccuracies and history. I've heard some of these and there is much food for thought in the discussions. the only problem is that these discussions are relegated to late night radio or Sunday morning TV. Not many folks listening/watching then...

The truth is that there is all manner of "errors" in the way the Bible was constructed. They range from the stories that were doing the rounds at the time of the penning of the different books, to civil laws versus God's laws set down in the book. Rules like NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE may well be laws from men instead of God if you look at the way the Bible was written.

I welcome all manner of questioning. I just hope folks don't dismiss the Bible out of hand without making sure they have the right explanation. The Church is fully aware of the discrepencies and NEEDS to explain it...

[AntiThesis]

Pretty much ant. Interesting thread and yet it completely fails to make me renounce my faith. Weird that mm? :D

[Debbie]

I am not a Christian, but for the christians.

[TELESPHORE]

Yes Antowan I do agree and disagree with you at the same time. There are parts of the Bible that does not make sense in its singularity. But once when read in context it does make perfect sense. I am now going to use an example of misquotation in our modern current history,

Jacob Zuma had sex with a HIV positive female. After the act he went for a shower.
Now I don’t know what kind of things he did, but taking a shower might have been appropriate BUT for the term AIDS.

Would this have been a report 20 years ago about a man taking a shower after sex it would have not raised a single eyebrow.

To take the Bible into context means reading large portions of it and comprehending the times it was written in.

It still does not give someone the right to attack the Bible in a fashion that is distasteful.

[ghoti]

If you have a beef with Christianity and you are a Christian then sort it out with your local church. If you are of another believe say so and quote your believe. BUT do not quote half sentences and things out of context or attack other believes in a decretory and very insulting manner.

We have not been allowed to freely discuss religion on this level for thousands of years due to an extremely heavy hand in the name of the Christian religion (thousands of people have died because of this religion or questioning it).

It is becoming clearer to me every day why this discussion was outlawed, and why so many other religious text were destroyed by Christian persecution.

As long as any religion condones murder, bigotry, prejustice, racism and sexism I will continue to oppose it.

You do not like me talking about this because it offends you. Consider that you promoting your religion offends me.
Thats the biatch with free speech. You have to learn to tolerate the words you hate hearing the most. Prehaps not something you are familiar with.

I look around and see how the world has been held back thanks to religion. I see how many people have suffered in the name of religion, and I see how quickly people are eager to kill in the name of their god and it scares the hell out of me.

[Debbie]

Antowan, perhaps some of us are just encouraging an expanded interpretation of the bible, because the way christianity currently stands, clearly there are problems in the consistency of its interpretation.

[kingrob]

A lot of the earlier quotes comes from the Old Testament, where the Jews lived according to the Laws of Moses.

In the New Testament, when J eesus came to earth, almost all of that old laws went out of the window.

J eesus said, the two most important laws are :

1. Love God with your whole heart & soul.

2. Love other people like you would love yourself.

My inspiration for the day!! :)

[ghoti]

A lot of the earlier quotes comes from the Old Testament, where the Jews lived according to the Laws of Moses.

In the New Testament, when J eesus came to earth, almost all of that old laws went out of the window.

J eesus said, the two most important laws are :

1. Love God with your whole heart & soul.

2. Love other people like you would love yourself.

My inspiration for the day!! :)

***** also said (as is my understanding) that you should obey the law of the prophets (ie Moses) exactly.

[Highflyer_GP]

Jacob Zuma had sex with a HIV positive female. After the act he went for a shower.
Now I don’t know what kind of things he did, but taking a shower might have been appropriate BUT for the term AIDS.

Would this have been a report 20 years ago about a man taking a shower after sex it would have not raised a single eyebrow.

OK so if I understand you correctly, it means that 20 years ago it would have been ok for him to do that, just as 2000 years ago it would have been ok to commit the uncounted number of atrocities spoken of in the bible.

If that is indeed the case then I'd like to ask you if you have the same amount of faith in Zuma as you do in the bible? If you have faith in it, then by definition you agree with it. So do you agree with the amount of murder, prejudice and sexism spoken of in the bible? Irrespective of whether it was ok back then, wrong is still wrong...

[TELESPHORE]

A lot of the earlier quotes comes from the Old Testament, where the Jews lived according to the Laws of Moses.

In the New Testament, when J eesus came to earth, almost all of that old laws went out of the window.

J eesus said, the two most important laws are :

1. Love God with your whole heart & soul.

2. Love other people like you would love yourself.

My inspiration for the day!! :)

Absolutely what we should aspire for.

[Highflyer_GP]

2. Love other people like you would love yourself.

That part I most definitely agree with! Because I know for a fact that people exist :)

[TELESPHORE]

We have not been allowed to freely discuss religion on this level for thousands of years due to an extremely heavy hand in the name of the Christian religion (thousands of people have died because of this religion or questioning it).

It is becoming clearer to me every day why this discussion was outlawed, and why so many other religious text were destroyed by Christian persecution.

As long as any religion condones murder, bigotry, prejustice, racism and sexism I will continue to oppose it.

You do not like me talking about this because it offends you. Consider that you promoting your religion offends me.
Thats the biatch with free speech. You have to learn to tolerate the words you hate hearing the most. Prehaps not something you are familiar with.

I look around and see how the world has been held back thanks to religion. I see how many people have suffered in the name of religion, and I see how quickly people are eager to kill in the name of their god and it scares the hell out of me.
Nobody stops you talking about it – just do not do it in the offensive and aggressive way you do it. Where is your manners? You cannot go and openly offend people and then not be challenged.

[Captain Beer]

If you have a beef with Christianity and you are a Christian then sort it out with your local church. If you are of another believe say so and quote your believe. BUT do not quote half sentences and things out of context or attack other believes in a decretory and very insulting manner.

You guys are always telling everyone else how wrong they are, so we just like to do the same ;)

[kingrob]

***** also said (as is my understanding) that you should obey the law of the prophets (ie Moses) exactly.

I was more referring to the old laws that were specific to the Jews, e.g. circumcision, etc. There are a lot of 'old' Jewish laws that J.e.s.u.s nullified for Christians when He came to earth.

[TELESPHORE]

OK so if I understand you correctly, it means that 20 years ago it would have been ok for him to do that, just as 2000 years ago it would have been ok to commit the uncounted number of atrocities spoken of in the bible.

If that is indeed the case then I'd like to ask you if you have the same amount of faith in Zuma as you do in the bible? If you have faith in it, then by definition you agree with it. So do you agree with the amount of murder, prejudice and sexism spoken of in the bible? Irrespective of whether it was ok back then, wrong is still wrong...

You were never good in scoring on comprehension tests were you?

[Highflyer_GP]

You were never good in scoring on comprehension tests were you?
If I misinterpreted you then please be polite enough to correct me while also pointing out where I went wrong in my interpretation - there's no need to resort to personal attacks. If you can't, then be honest enough to either:
i) admit that I'm right and you have no answer, or
ii) try and answer the question posed to you by correcting my supposed misunderstanding.

However personal attacks is the lowest form of debating tactics, and often shows everybody else that you are unable to respond in the proper manner (or unable to respond at all), thereby making your opponent the victor by default.

[ghoti]

Nobody stops you talking about it – just do not do it in the offensive and aggressive way you do it. Where is your manners? You cannot go and openly offend people and then not be challenged.

They might be offensive to you, but others are not offended by what I write. I find the very fact that you support a god that killed hundreds of babies to get his message across to a single Pharaoh offensive. Where were his manners?

Peter is also very rude in the Gospels when he condones slavery. I also find that offensive. So if you could kindly remove those offensive passages from the Bible, I will edit my posts and make them "less offensive".

The point of this thread was to point out that the Bible is a mixed warped amalgamation of politics and religion written by men, and it has been even further perverted from the original teachings by men.

I want people to question why only a few of the gospels were included, and why not the rest. Where are the real origins, and what are the real stories. I want people to question their beliefs if they believe god is a sexist and a bigot.

I want people to search for god themselves, not be told what god is.

[kingrob]

Why does everybody ALWAYS want to have a go at Chritianity? Is it because they know we're right and the devil charge them to attack us constantly?

[Captain Beer]

Why does everybody ALWAYS want to have a go at Chritianity? Is it because they know we're right and the devil charge them to attack us constantly?

Damn that Satan dude is always up to something naughty :D

[kingrob]

Damn that Satan dude is always up to something naughty :D

I wouldn't write satan's name with a capital letter - he is a POS. :mad:

[Debbie]

I am terrified that this thread is going to be locked.

I think that christianity particularly has been warped. I feel that it is unfair for 'christians' to claim a sole and exclusive ownership over the bible. The bible means something to me, but because I don't count my number with a group of people who refer to themselves as 'christians', I am not allowed to have an opinion on the bible.

Censorship of religion is ongoing to this day, and it is deeply entwined in our cultures. So much so, that we who feel that the bible is of worth but do not call ourselves 'christian' engage in self-censorship. We do this so as not to 'offend' 'christians'.

Guess what? I'm tired of it. I'm tired of what I feel to be truth having been hijacked, perverted, distorted, misinterpreted, and abused. Count me in with the millions of people around the world who are also standing up and saying enough is bloody well enough now.

Of course, the 'christians' will now try to play the 'discrmination' card on people like me. As I said, I see censorship everywhere I look. I can no longer participate in the self-censorship.

[Highflyer_GP]

Brilliant, and congratulations for having the courage to finally stand up for what you believe in. It's never easy especially when you're in the minority.

[kingrob]

I am terrified that this thread is going to be locked.

I think that christianity particularly has been warped. I feel that it is unfair for 'christians' to claim a sole and exclusive ownership over the bible. The bible means something to me, but because I don't count my number with a group of people who refer to themselves as 'christians', I am not allowed to have an opinion on the bible.

Censorship of religion is ongoing to this day, and it is deeply entwined in our cultures. So much so, that we who feel that the bible is of worth but do not call ourselves 'christian' engage in self-censorship. We do this so as not to 'offend' 'christians'.

Guess what? I'm tired of it. I'm tired of what I feel to be truth having been hijacked, perverted, distorted, misinterpreted, and abused. Count me in with the millions of people around the world who are also standing up and saying enough is bloody well enough now.

Of course, the 'christians' will now try to play the 'discrmination' card on people like me. As I said, I see censorship everywhere I look. I can no longer participate in the self-censorship.

So what does the Bible mean to you?

[nthdimension]

What does it mean for an aspect of a religious book to be taken in context? Essentially it is in context when interpreted the way a member of the religion would wish it to be interpreted, out of context when they do not like the interpretation.

The Bible isn't complex, it's just the ramblings of numerous individuals.

[ghoti]

Why does everybody ALWAYS want to have a go at Chritianity? Is it because they know we're right and the devil charge them to attack us constantly?

The Christian Devil/Satan is affecting my post writing... as much as the Islamic devil/Shai'tan (I think thats correct) is affecting your responses.

[kingrob]

The Christian Devil/Satan is effecting my post writing as much as the Islamic devil/Shai'tan (I think thats correct) is effecting your responses.

Congratulations!

I've never seen so much rubbish fit into one sentence. :)

[ghoti]

Congratulations!

I've never seen so much rubbish fit into one sentence. :)

I am sorry you completely missed the meaning of that post.

[Safferbeauty]

I love 2 Corinthians 5:17. It says for you are a new being in Christ, the old has gone, the new has come or something like that

[Captain Beer]

I wouldn't write satan's name with a capital letter - he is a POS. :mad:

Ok.

Something is bothering me. I heard from a Christian that Jews, Buddhists, Hindus , Wiccans etc are all the work of Satan. Is this true?

[Safferbeauty]

No its not true. i believe that we will see them in heaven

[Safferbeauty]

There are a lot of good people out there that dont believe in J e s u s but i believe that they will be in heaven

[PostmanPot]

"The Catholic church has made numerous changes to the Bible over the past few centuries, to its convenience and to support its wrongful teachings. Among them this myth about hell, that has spread towards the end of the Earth."

can anyone please explain to me where the myth about heaven and hell comes from?

thanks :)

[Safferbeauty]

To be honest with you I dont know where it does come from but it is true but what I can tell you as I said in one of my previous posts is that I truly truly believe that all good people go to heaven no matter your religion

[PostmanPot]

sorry, but the question requires a response from someone who wasn't taught what to believe in by their parents/school etc.

[Safferbeauty]

I wasnt taught by my parents at all. my dad wasnt a christian and my mum never really went to church until now and I never went to a christain school until high school

[Debbie]

No its not true. i believe that we will see them in heaven

This is my problem with 'christian' interpretations of the bible. It presupposes a quality of externality (IOW, it assumes a separation between man and God, it assumes that certain things about man's relationship to God are unknowable in this life).

I can expand at length if needs be.

Morality, for example. Under a 'christian' world view, the source of morality is God. That is external to man.

I do not believe that God is external to man, and the more I read the bible, the more I see the bible telling me the same thing.

[Safferbeauty]

God sent his Holy Spirit to live inside man. so no he is not external to us. i dont believe that anyways. I know I have God inside of me

[PostmanPot]

excuse me while i fetch the desk fan from downstairs.

maybe somone would have answered my question when i return.

[Safferbeauty]

I have tried answeting you but you dont somehow seem happy with the answer I gave so hope someone else can help you

[PostmanPot]

the bible has never answered any of my questions, and you're answering mine by telling me what it made you believe.

[Highflyer_GP]

"The Catholic church has made numerous changes to the Bible over the past few centuries, to its convenience and to support its wrongful teachings. Among them this myth about hell, that has spread towards the end of the Earth."

can anyone please explain to me where the myth about heaven and hell comes from?

thanks :)
I think that this might help answer that:

The language of heaven and hell as well as the doctrines associated with this language have their origin in the great monotheistic religions of the Abrahamic tradition — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The philosophical issues surrounding these doctrines have much wider significance, however, for every religion promises certain benefits to its adherents, and those benefits require by way of contrast some costs incurred by those who do not receive those benefits.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/

Also something I found to be a really interesting read, yet also amusing:


A Mathematical Proof of the Non-Existence of Hell from the writings of the free-thinker Neiht, born in Brussels, 1877.

"The area of the valley of Jehoshaphat is 60,000,000 sq. ms. ... "
Supposing that each race originated with one couple only, one has five couples or ten people, and applying to them the principle of compound interest, up to the Flood there were 9,289,000 births in 1,658 years.
Since the Flood up to our epoch 2,326 years have passed, during which, if only five couples survived, they would have produced 2,213,867,610,000 children.
If these calculations are extended up to the year 2000, the resulting number is 34,326,414,259,675,172,000 which, together with the 9,289,000, makes 34,326,414,259,684,461,000 offspring.
If one concedes, charitably, that all papists are saved, their number today being 1/7th of the population of the earth, that of the damned would be made up of those born before the Flood plus those born since the Flood up to the year 2000 minus the 1/7th of those born since the year 44, that of the birth of Christ: this number is 4,903,773,008,164,544,000, and the total of damned would be 29,422,641,251,519,917,000.

"The mean cubic area between a new-born infant and an adult is about 1/20th metre; the bulk of the damned above is equal to the mass of a sphere of radius 705,504 metres; that of the earth is 6,366,200 metres.

"If one puts back the origin of man, following certain German naturalists, to 80,000 years, the number of damned would form a cube three times the size of the earth.

"Now, how does one assemble the 34,326,414,260 millions risen on a surface of 60,000,000 sq. metres to judge them and how does one sink this mass of damned, through all manner of rock, to a depth of 5,660,660 metres?"

http://www.wielinga.org/frames/mainframes/HeavenHotterThanHell.htm

On this same page an attempt is made to mathematically prove that heaven could indeed even be hotter than hell if they did exist. However Dr. Tim Healey refutes this by trying to prove otherwise, concluding that if they did exist hell would still be hotter than heaven (even though heaven would still be unbearably hot).

Moral of the story: irrespective of whether you think you're going to heaven or hell, you're still going to burn forever. Have a nice afterlife... :)

[PostmanPot]

great post Highflyer_GP, i think i'll be able to sleep now :D

[DragonLogos]

One quote that got me going a few years back was - " Go forth and Sin " - I thought that's a good idea, sort of go out and sow your wild oats, then come back and settle down, once you have got all the temptation stuff out the way. Then someone pointed out that it was in fact " Go forth and Sin no more " which really put a dampener on the whole thing, and very disappointing it was to

Slightly off topic, two quotes I like are

" A choice between to evils is still a choice of evil " - Jerry Garcia (Grateful Dead Guitarist)

" When choosing between two evils, I always like to choose the one I have not tried before " - Mae West

[antowan]

Antowan, perhaps some of us are just encouraging an expanded interpretation of the bible, because the way Christianity currently stands, clearly there are problems in the consistency of its interpretation.

Absolutely. The ambiguity of the Bible to the ordinary man might well have suited the church in years past, but today they will have to come clean with cold hard facts about the construct of the Bible and their known flaws in it. There are anomalies in the Bible. The church knows about it and yet are not coming clean. I think the fact that whoever steps up to admit it in a formal forum and asks the congregations of the world to ignore some parts of the Bible will be looked upon by those with blind faith as sacrilege and an attack on the faith. The bit in revelations barring folks from changing the word of God is the main warning that will literally make folks go as far as murder to protect it.

The questions is, is this the word of God as intended? Humans were involved and we all know humans make mistakes. Would God allow mistakes in the accumulation of the Bible? I cannot answer that truthfully, because if not, then why are there so many folks who don't get the message? Perhaps this wasn't God's mistake, but ours...

There is no harm imo in rechecking the values and facts of your faith every now and again. We do become more enlightened as time goes by. We have never been more able to ensure the factual history of our faiths (including other faiths) than at present. We would be stupid to think we know everything...

[Claymore]

There are a lot of good people out there that dont believe in J e s u s but i believe that they will be in heaven

Hey, I don't want to be in heaven with all those evangelists!

[TELESPHORE]

They might be offensive to you, but others are not offended by what I write. I find the very fact that you support a god that killed hundreds of babies to get his message across to a single Pharaoh offensive. Where were his manners?

Peter is also very rude in the Gospels when he condones slavery. I also find that offensive. So if you could kindly remove those offensive passages from the Bible, I will edit my posts and make them "less offensive".

The point of this thread was to point out that the Bible is a mixed warped amalgamation of politics and religion written by men, and it has been even further perverted from the original teachings by men.

I want people to question why only a few of the gospels were included, and why not the rest. Where are the real origins, and what are the real stories. I want people to question their beliefs if they believe god is a sexist and a bigot.

I want people to search for god themselves, not be told what god is.

Somewhere someone forgot to tell about the murder done by Pharaoh on all the male babies when Moses was a baby. Same that happened with Herod when Christ was born. Go read the Bible itself and not extracts with impressionable extortions and postulates.

If you want to include child massacres then do so it where you have some influence. Around us now, children are killed in abortions and as child control after they are born. Go into China and talk to them if you feel so strong. This is in your own time, not a fantasy into the past. Change life in China and then speak.

Fear of God sometimes is the biggest fear of all.

Matthew 2

16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18"A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."[g]

[TELESPHORE]

Absolutely. The ambiguity of the Bible to the ordinary man might well have suited the church in years past, but today they will have to come clean with cold hard facts about the construct of the Bible and their known flaws in it. There are anomalies in the Bible. The church knows about it and yet are not coming clean. I think the fact that whoever steps up to admit it in a formal forum and asks the congregations of the world to ignore some parts of the Bible will be looked upon by those with blind faith as sacrilege and an attack on the faith. The bit in revelations barring folks from changing the word of God is the main warning that will literally make folks go as far as murder to protect it.

The questions is, is this the word of God as intended? Humans were involved and we all know humans make mistakes. Would God allow mistakes in the accumulation of the Bible? I cannot answer that truthfully, because if not, then why are there so many folks who don't get the message? Perhaps this wasn't God's mistake, but ours...

There is no harm imo in rechecking the values and facts of your faith every now and again. We do become more enlightened as time goes by. We have never been more able to ensure the factual history of our faiths (including other faiths) than at present. We would be stupid to think we know everything...

The ambiguity is mostly created by ourselves. Until recently (like in 40 years ago) social structures were completely different and so our references.

Now Religion (and more specifically Christianity) is outlawed in the USA schools. In place thereof is a pledge to the allegiance to the USA flag. Reminds very much to the Nazi regime? The USA flag has become a God.

This is from a country that is supposed to be the champion protector of human rights and freedom of expression and belief.

Well it does fall into place with all the prophecies. All that is required is for the people to stop believing in God and only believe in themselves. To that extend I see a large group already falling into that category.

[TELESPHORE]

I think that this might help answer that:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/heaven-hell/

Also something I found to be a really interesting read, yet also amusing:

http://www.wielinga.org/frames/mainframes/HeavenHotterThanHell.htm

On this same page an attempt is made to mathematically prove that heaven could indeed even be hotter than hell if they did exist. However Dr. Tim Healey refutes this by trying to prove otherwise, concluding that if they did exist hell would still be hotter than heaven (even though heaven would still be unbearably hot).

Moral of the story: irrespective of whether you think you're going to heaven or hell, you're still going to burn forever. Have a nice afterlife... :)

The sun has turbo heating – plenty of space there. Might be some vacancy billboards by the look of things.

[nthdimension]

The ambiguity is mostly created by ourselves. Until recently (like in 40 years ago) social structures were completely different and so our references.
It's just there, we didn't have to create it. The witchdoctors that wrote it just weren't consistent. And they were writing for their primitive times.


Now Religion (and more specifically Christianity) is outlawed in the USA schools. In place thereof is a pledge to the allegiance to the USA flag. Reminds very much to the Nazi regime? The USA flag has become a God.
What utter drivel. I don't think much of patriotism, but it has always stood side-by-side with religious belief. It's not either one or the other. Besides Christians managed to weasle In God We Trust onto the currency and the walls of courtrooms, and "one nation under god" into the pledge of allegiance, when reference to any god has no place there.

Christianity was quite rightly ousted from the school system because public schools have no place promoting any one religion. If they want to run a course on religion in general I think it might provide children with a useful education on the matter - learning about many religions is one way for children to discover that there are many competing fairy tales. No-one has a monopoly there.

If you want to teach your children that schizophrenic fairy tales are reality I can't stop you. It's your right to believe that stuff and even to brainwash your own children, but I'll definitely stand in your way if you try to feed that nonsense to my children and grandchildren. I worked hard to protect them from the malevolent influence of religion.


Well it does fall into place with all the prophecies.
I've no doubt you can find some prophecy and mangle it into fitting something happening any time.

If God knows all why not be more specific? Why the raving acid trip fantasy?

[nthdimension]

Somewhere someone forgot to tell about the murder done by Pharaoh on all the male babies when Moses was a baby. Same that happened with Herod when Christ was born. Go read the Bible itself and not extracts with impressionable extortions and postulates.
So this just makes the Israelites and their god as bad as the Egyptians. At worst. Of course we don't have the Egyptian's side of this story.

And if Herod had been a little more thorough he could have saved us all a couple of thousand years of strife and misery.


Fear of God sometimes is the biggest fear of all.
If there is a god, and this being is the raving lunatic desperate for attention that is portrayed in the Bible, then we should well fear it. Just as we'd fear any psychotic despot.

[frenchi6625]

good post

[Vampir0]

This thread is so wrong...:(

[Claymore]

Somewhere someone forgot to tell about the murder done by Pharaoh on all the male babies when Moses was a baby. Same that happened with Herod when Christ was born. Go read the Bible itself and not extracts with impressionable extortions and postulates.

Got any contemporary or non-Biblical accounts of those supposed events? As far as I'm aware, they're both apocryphal. After all, Herod died before Christ was supposedly born.

[ghoti]

Somewhere someone forgot to tell about the murder done by Pharaoh on all the male babies when Moses was a baby. Same that happened with Herod when Christ was born. Go read the Bible itself and not extracts with impressionable extortions and postulates.

I have. For the record, Moses was an Egyptian noble who tried to lead several civil wars against the ruling entity because he was not close enough to the throne. He used religion as an excuse to back up his escapades. The fact of the matter is your god is supposedly have meant to have killed all those babies, to get his point across to a Pharaoh. Using the whole " well pharaoh did it, therefore god is also allowed to be a mass murdering sadistic entity carries no water. Unless your god truly is that pathetic.


If you want to include child massacres then do so it where you have some influence. Around us now, children are killed in abortions and as child control after they are born. Go into China and talk to them if you feel so strong. This is in your own time, not a fantasy into the past. Change life in China and then speak.

You see, the Chinese are not blaming god when they do forced abortion. This act is not been done in the name of a religion. Since this post is about religion (and human rights), its not about Political parties (and human rights) I don't see where you are going with the whole Chinese thing.

What you are trying to do here is divert attention away from the fact that your religion informs you that your god committed genocide. Your only response so far on that has been tit-for-tat. IE, because pharaoh committed atrocities, its alright for god to commit them.


Fear of God sometimes is the biggest fear of all.


Yup, that's your god in a nutshell. He uses the carrot and the stick routine. If you are a good little follower, you will go to heaven. If you are a sinner, you will spend an eternity in hell! Fear and ignorance is what your god thrives on. I see how well it suites you.

[dablakmark8]

I am the alpha and omega,and who so ever changes the words in this book will get all the plagues and suffering in this book apon him..revelations
nuv said

[TELESPHORE]

Got any contemporary or non-Biblical accounts of those supposed events? As far as I'm aware, they're both apocryphal. After all, Herod died before Christ was supposedly born.
Provide a source that makes you think so. Simple is it not.

Here is one:
http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodians/herod_the_great02.html

Herod's reign ended in terror. The monastery at Qumran, the home of the Essenes, suffered a violent and deliberate destruction by fire in 8 BCE, for which Herod may have been responsible. When the king fell ill, two popular teachers, Judas and Matthias, incited their pupils to remove the golden eagle from the entrance of the Temple: after all, according to the Ten Commandments, it was a sin to make idols. The teachers and the pupils were burned alive. Some Jewish scholars had discovered that seventy-six generations had passed since the Creation, and there was a well-known prophecy that the Messiah was to deliver Israel from its foreign rulers in the seventy-seventh generation. The story about the slaughter of infants of Bethlehem in the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew is not known from other sources, but it would have been totally in character for the later Herod to commit such a terrible act.


Note the generation part in the prophecy.

Also (I am not that fond of wikipedia but it is usefull)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini
Accuracy
"Although scholars generally believe that Christ was born some years before A.D. 1, the historical evidence is too sketchy to allow a definitive dating" (Doggett 1992, 579). According to the Gospel of Matthew (2:1,16) Herod the Great was alive when ***** was born, and ordered the Massacre of the Innocents in response to his birth. Blackburn & Holford-Strevens fix Herod's death shortly before Passover in 4 BC (2003, 770), and say that those who accept the story of the Massacre of the Innocents sometimes associate the star that led the Biblical Magi with the planetary conjunction of 15 September 7 BC or Halley's comet of 12 BC; even historians who do not accept the Massacre accept birth under Herod as a tradition older than the written gospels (p. 776).

The Gospel of Luke (1:5) states that John the Baptist was at least conceived, if not born, under Herod, and that Christ was conceived while John's mother was in the sixth month of her pregnancy (1:26). Luke's Gospel also states that Christ was born during the reign of Augustus and while Quirinius was the governor of Syria (2:1-2), . Blackburn and Holford-Strevens (2003, 770) indicate Quirinius' governorship of Syria began in AD 6, which is incompatible with conception in 4 BC, and say that "St. Luke raises greater difficulty....Most critics therefore discard Luke" (p. 776). Some scholars rely on John's Gospel to place Christ's birth in c.18 BC (Blackburn and Holford-Strevens 2003, 776).

[Claymore]

I was getting my info from Wikipedia. Looks like no-one knows when Christ was purportedly born, and nor is there any verification of the slaughter of the infants.

[fivelza]

Romans 8:38-39



For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ J esus our Lord.

This is enough for me :D

[danieljc]

We're born into the world sinful and it's the total depravity of our hearts that causes us to reject and try to fight against the God who made us. That's why this thread is such a hot topic - no one in their natural fallen state wants to admit subservience to God.

We get around this by either denying his existance (athiesm, etc) or turning Him into the kind of God we want (everyone goes to heaven, people are basically good, we can come up with a better morality than God, etc).

You can bludgeon your conscience in this life and live just the way you'd like to but God won't be mocked and you'll be judged according to the way you lived.

[nthdimension]

I was getting my info from Wikipedia. Looks like no-one knows when Christ was purportedly born, and nor is there any verification of the slaughter of the infants.
Nobody knows exactly when he was born.

[nthdimension]

no one in their natural fallen state wants to admit subservience to God.
It's the fallen who are subservient to this god. The rest of us have risen from the darkness.


We're born into the world sinful and it's the total depravity of our hearts that causes us to reject and try to fight against the God who made us.
This is the kind of nonsense used to justify beating children into submission. They're born bad. Have to beat that evil out of them.

[danieljc]

Your first statement is proof of the argument I just made - people are basically good - we aren't naturally sinful.

With regards your second statement, beating/abuse is not the same as discipline. If we're not born bad, can you explain how you child never had to be taught to lie or steal or fight?

[nthdimension]

With regards your second statement, beating/abuse is not the same as discipline.
Beating is abuse. Discipline is something else entirely.


If we're not born bad, can you explain how you child never had to be taught to lie or steal or fight?
They didn't have to be taught to be friendly or kind either. Nor did they have to be taught to speak their mind or tell the truth. Never been embarassed by a child being totally open and truthful?

It is a very, very sick group that teaches children they are born bad.

[icyrus]

While I have found this thread highly amusing, I have taken an even more profound lesson from it. Seeing such ardent support and blind faith from people who are supposedly educated, I have realised without doubt that I am in the wrong line of work.

The money isn't in IT - its in religion. So I think I'm going to start my own church - or maybe Rehma franchises? I need to get a piece of ol' Ray's pie.

[fivelza]

With regards your second statement, beating/abuse is not the same as discipline. If we're not born bad, can you explain how you child never had to be taught to lie or steal or fight?

I disagree daniel, we are born into a sinful world, NOT into a world sinful.

[Raithlin]

I was getting my info from Wikipedia. Looks like no-one knows when Christ was purportedly born, and nor is there any verification of the slaughter of the infants.

Don't believe everything you read on WikiPedia. :p

[danieljc]

So you agree then? I'm not advocating abuse.

A child can be openly truthful because they aren't aware of personal implications to their reputation, etc but the point I was making was not that children are only "bad" all the time but rather that they are capable of doing "bad" things.

It's illogical to say that someone who is "good" can do "bad". If you can do "bad", you're "bad"! Of course, I'm not just talking about children, every one of us including me are basically sinful.

[danieljc]

I disagree daniel, we are born into a sinful world, NOT into a world sinful.

ha ha! Interesting distinction but it's the people in the world who make it sinful. The world without us wouldn't be sinful.

We inherit our fallen state from Adam, to approximately paraphrase Romans "through the one man, all sinned". Because God is perfect, he can't tolerate evil and those who sin must pay for their sins. Christ's life was the only sacrifice that was able to satisfy this judicial requirement and through Christ is offered the free forgiveness of sins - he took our guilt on himself. If you want to really understand the message of the bible in as short a time as possible, read Romans.

[Nick333]

We inherit our fallen state from Adam, to approximately paraphrase Romans "through the one man, all sinned". Because God is perfect, he can't tolerate evil and those who sin must pay for their sins. Christ's life was the only sacrifice that was able to satisfy this judicial requirement and through Christ is offered the free forgiveness of sins - he took our guilt on himself. If you want to really understand the message of the bible in as short a time as possible, read Romans.

Of course this can only be true if you believe the bible implicitly. Which of course means you live in a world were its possible for the entire human population of the world, with all its genetic diversity, to spring forth from one breeding pair in less than 500 generations. And that at least one breeding pair of each of a few million species of animal could be crammed into a wooden boat of any size.
Actually why go any further than that? I'd like to see a christian come up with a solution to either of those problems before they try explain any of the other ridiculous claims made in the bible and by christian doctrine.

[danieljc]

Well, if you look at things from a christian perspective, it makes sense. If God really is the author of all things and has preserved the divinely inspired bible for us, it can be trusted implicitly. Interestingly, there is remarkable evidence to show how few errors and changes have occured in the scripture as a result of it being copied many times over 1000's of years - especially when compared with the variance in other secular and religious writings of similar age.

I'm not sure what other "ridiculous claims made in the bible" you are talking about but don't you think it's unreasonable for us finite humans to understand the purposes and plans of an infinte and supreme God?

[fivelza]

Of course this can only be true if you believe the bible implicitly. Which of course means you live in a world were its possible for the entire human population of the world, with all its genetic diversity, to spring forth from one breeding pair in less than 500 generations. And that at least one breeding pair of each of a few million species of animal could be crammed into a wooden boat of any size.
Actually why go any further than that? I'd like to see a christian come up with a solution to either of those problems before they try explain any of the other ridiculous claims made in the bible and by christian doctrine.

I am afraid Nick you have to believe the bible if you regard yourself as a Christian, it is central to our faith. I cannot explain your valid points, nor do I believe that it is necessary. Christianity is simply based on a relationship with a living God and that's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for you then I guess you will continue searching ;)

[Nick333]

Well, if you look at things from a christian perspective, it makes sense. If God really is the author of all things and has preserved the divinely inspired bible for us, it can be trusted implicitly. Interestingly, there is remarkable evidence to show how few errors and changes have occured in the scripture as a result of it being copied many times over 1000's of years - especially when compared with the variance in other secular and religious writings of similar age.

I'm not sure what other "ridiculous claims made in the bible" you are talking about but don't you think it's unreasonable for us finite humans to understand the purposes and plans of an infinte and supreme God?

I think its ridiculous to believe in an infinite and supreme God based on a book that makes so many outlandish claims.

If you are unable to provide reasonable explanations for the two problems I mentioned, would you care to provide the remarkable evidence for the bibles accuracy. And perhaps you could explain why you don't stone children who disrespect their parents, and homosexuals. Is it because you feel jail is to high a price to pay to obey gods laws?

[Highflyer_GP]

Christianity is simply based on a relationship with a living God and that's good enough for me.
I guess if he's living then we should be able to see him then. Maybe some people actually enjoy following something not knowing (or caring) about the truth.

[Nick333]

I am afraid Nick you have to believe the bible if you regard yourself as a Christian, it is central to our faith. I cannot explain your valid points, nor do I believe that it is necessary. Christianity is simply based on a relationship with a living God and that's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for you then I guess you will continue searching ;)

Thats actually about the most balanced response Ive had from a christian. Good for you.

[fivelza]

I guess if he's living then we should be able to see him then. Maybe some people actually enjoy following something not knowing (or caring) about the truth.

Yes alive in each one of us ;)

The "truth" is rather subjective don't you think. That is why debating religion/faith becomes meaningless IMHO.

[tibby.dude]

Hey, I don't want to be in heaven with all those evangelists!

You mean fine upstanding folks like meth addict gay Ted Haggard and fornicator Jimmy Swaggart ???.

[Highflyer_GP]

Yes alive in each one of us ;)

The "truth" is rather subjective don't you think. That is why debating religion/faith becomes meaningless IMHO.
I guess so but as Nick said that's probably the best response from a christian so far. At least you don't quote bible passages to try and prove the "truth" and make no excuses for your faith. Good on you mate.

[noxibox]

It's illogical to say that someone who is "good" can do "bad". If you can do "bad", you're "bad"! Of course, I'm not just talking about children, every one of us including me are basically sinful.
So we'd be in agreement that God is therefore bad.


We inherit our fallen state from Adam, to approximately paraphrase Romans "through the one man, all sinned". Because God is perfect, he can't tolerate evil and those who sin must pay for their sins. Christ's life was the only sacrifice that was able to satisfy this judicial requirement and through Christ is offered the free forgiveness of sins - he took our guilt on himself. If you want to really understand the message of the bible in as short a time as possible, read Romans.
This is all some silly game God is playing. God is claimed to know everything about the past, present and future. Therefore God knew Adam would eat the apple, that he'd eventually send his son to symbolically die for everyone's sins, and he obviously knew exactly who was going to heaven. Our lives and every event in the universe is pre-ordained. Or God cannot accurately predict the future and does not know everything.

There is a great quote in The Witches of Eastwick - paraphrasing - when God does bad things it's called nature, when anyone else does them it's called evil.

[danieljc]

@Nick333

just so it doesn't sound like i'm trying to contrive my own "facts", here are a couple of site you could look at:

http://www.suffering.net/bibtru.htm (manuscript evidence)
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/old_testament.htm

as far stoning & homosexuality go, I'd be glad to explain if you really want an explanation but if I gave you a satisfactory answer, i'm sure you'd find another critiscism and another, etc.

@noxibox

I don't agree. God is perfect and just, therefore he must judge those those guilty of breaking his law - this does not make him bad if this is what you mean.

God is not the author of sin but permits it to occur for a time. He is fully aware of every event that has or will occur but the bible makes it clear that we are all given free will.

[Nick333]

@Nick333

just so it doesn't sound like i'm trying to contrive my own "facts", here are a couple of site you could look at:

http://www.suffering.net/bibtru.htm (manuscript evidence)
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/old_testament.htm

Thanks I'll give them a look.




as far stoning & homosexuality go, I'd be glad to explain if you really want an explanation but if I gave you a satisfactory answer, i'm sure you'd find another critiscism and another, etc.

Please do explain. If I offer further valid criticisms surely I cant see why you should have a problem. Surely that is the essence of healthy debate?

[Captain Beer]

What about fish?

There was this great flood, so I take it the fresh water and salt water was all mixed up? How did the fish survive?

[ToxicBunny]

That is a valid question.. did noah have hundreds of fish tanks as well... and what about the whales?.. thats one big ass fish tank imo...

[noxibox]

God is not perfect because God's works are not perfect.


God is not the author of sin but permits it to occur for a time. He is fully aware of every event that has or will occur but the bible makes it clear that we are all given free will.
God created everything and therefore created sin/evil.

There is no free will when the outcome is already known.

[ToxicBunny]

noxibox...I've learnt over time that the idea of freewill and god knowing everything don't seem to be a problem for most christians even thought they're mutually exclusive...... and it hampers effective debate because they cling to these ideas.

[danieljc]

Please do explain. If I offer further valid criticisms surely I cant see why you should have a problem. Surely that is the essence of healthy debate?

First of all, bear in mind that in old testament times in Israel, the church and judicial system were the same - there was no distinction between church and state as there is now (I'm not slating the present system either as it's clear that the OT presented special circumstances and it is no longer the churches responsibility to rule). This is why it was the responsibility of the church to effect justice.

OT Israel were Gods chosen people. They were a foreshadow of the NT church. This church today is not a specific race of people or a building but each individual true christian. In the OT, God shows the need for holiness and the seriousness in which he views sin. This is a warning for us living in modern times - Gods view on sin hasn't changed but his judgement is delayed. In the OT, disrespectful children were stoned immediately but such children today will still be judged if they remain unrepentant when the Lord returns. In the OT, there is a repeated call - something like "you must purge the evil from among you" where "you" is Israel. In the NT, Paul says all christians must "put to death the misdeeds of the body" - the principles haven't changed.

As for homosexuals, again the punishment isn't immediate death but God condemns all sexual impurity and these include homosexuality and extra-marital sex.


noxibox...I've learnt over time that the idea of freewill and god knowing everything don't seem to be a problem for most christians even thought they're mutually exclusive...... and it hampers effective debate because they cling to these ideas.

There's a simple explanation - if as a christian, God can be trusted for salvation, he can be trusted for anything else he claims - because of course the former requires the greater amount of faith and trust.

I didn't want to get into a philosophical debate over any of these issues. Ultimately christianity is about a personal relationship with God and in that relationship, he confirms the truth of all that he has said and done. God can be trusted implicitly because he is God.

[chiskop]

Vatican view on condoms begins to shift (http://mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=290860&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/) (m&g)

Could one of the religious types explain this to me please, did god change his/her mind?

[Nick333]

First of all, bear in mind that in old testament times in Israel, the church and judicial system were the same - there was no distinction between church and state as there is now (I'm not slating the present system either as it's clear that the OT presented special circumstances and it is no longer the churches responsibility to rule). This is why it was the responsibility of the church to effect justice.

OT Israel were Gods chosen people. They were a foreshadow of the NT church. This church today is not a specific race of people or a building but each individual true christian. In the OT, God shows the need for holiness and the seriousness in which he views sin. This is a warning for us living in modern times - Gods view on sin hasn't changed but his judgement is delayed. In the OT, disrespectful children were stoned immediately but such children today will still be judged if they remain unrepentant when the Lord returns. In the OT, there is a repeated call - something like "you must purge the evil from among you" where "you" is Israel. In the NT, Paul says all christians must "put to death the misdeeds of the body" - the principles haven't changed.

As for homosexuals, again the punishment isn't immediate death but God condemns all sexual impurity and these include homosexuality and extra-marital sex.



One thing I've never heard an explanation for is why God chose one otherwise insignificant group of people as the sole inheritors of his grace and presumably salvation in the first place. Should we assume that the rest of the worlds population were destined to an eternity in hell not just because they were incapable at the time of knowing that a small group of tribes in the near-east were the holders of gods truth and law, but because they just weren't invited to the party?
Or could it be that Jehovah was originally the tribal god of a small tribe who grew in stature as the tribe conquered and assimilated their neighbors?
Another related subject that Christians don't seem to feel the need to explain in any detail is: why did God change his mind and decide to include the rest of humanity in his grand plan after millennia of not giving the vast majority of humanity a shot at salvation?
We know from the bible itself that the earliest followers of Christ (the people, one would expect, would be the most likely to get it right) were in fact Jews who were practicing a Jewish religion and only at the urging of Paul decided to include gentiles. In fact right up until the First Council of Nicaea Christianity was viewed as a Jewish cult that allowed gentiles to join and effectively become Jews( circumcision was still a hot issue by that time).
So while your explanation is actually quite a good one, its also just to damn convenient. It basically changes what from a historical point of view was the successful(exceptionally so) attempts of a Jewish sect to ensure the survival of their belief system in the face of increasing hostility by become inclusive; to the divine will of god.
I realize that to a christian this poses no problem at all because at the end of the day, to you, it is the divine will of God. But to a human who embraces reason and logic its just another example of the evolutionary imperative to survive at all costs.

[danieljc]

Re the vatican - you're equating the vatican with God! God hasn't changed his mind - the vatican have made their own decision.



One thing I've never heard an explanation for is why God chose one otherwise insignificant group of people as the sole inheritors of his grace and presumably salvation in the first place. Should we assume that the rest of the worlds population were destined to an eternity in hell not just because they were incapable at the time of knowing that a small group of tribes in the near-east were the holders of gods truth and law, but because they just weren't invited to the party?

Yes. The problem is that OUR view of things is naturally severely distorted! The Israelites deserved hell as much as everyone else. It was God's grace to them that he chose them. God didn't change his mind, it was the start of his plan for salvation that culminated in Christ dying on the cross opening the door to all races and nations. This wasn't Paul's idea - he rightly recognised this to be the case and urged Jewish believers to follow suit.


But to a human who embraces reason and logic its just another example of the evolutionary imperative to survive at all costs.

You must understand that from a christian perspective, your perspective is the skewed one. You might not admit that but at least concede that if one presupposes the God of the bible is who he claims to be, the christian perspective IS the logical and reasonable one!

This is the point at which neither of us will be able to convince each other of anything further because this is the root of the argument. My belief is founded on God (something external - an objective source), your position is founded on what you define as rational (you're finding the answer from yourself - a subjective source).

[chiskop]

My belief is founded on God (something external - an objective source), your position is founded on what you define as rational (you're finding the answer from yourself - a subjective source).


That is a very strange set of definitions you have chosen there.

[icyrus]

You must understand that from a christian perspective, your perspective is the skewed one. You might not admit that but at least concede that if one presupposes the God of the bible is who he claims to be, the christian perspective IS the logical and reasonable one!

This is the point at which neither of us will be able to convince each other of anything further because this is the root of the argument. My belief is founded on God (something external - an objective source), your position is founded on what you define as rational (you're finding the answer from yourself - a subjective source).

To have unquestionable faith in something is foolish, especially something like god or religion.

What do you think of the ancient Greeks and Romans who believed in the Pantheon? What would you say to someone who still believed that?

The problem with religious people is that they don't understand (or don't want to) that there beliefs are no more sound than those of the dead religions of the past. You have no more proof or evidence, just a larger following.

[Nick333]

You must understand that from a christian perspective, your perspective is the skewed one. You might not admit that but at least concede that if one presupposes the God of the bible is who he claims to be, the christian perspective IS the logical and reasonable one!


You're right in that this is were it would seem that argument becomes pointless.
I'm going to keep on arguing in the hope that some other religious person who is not so convinced as you seem to be, will see the errors in his thinking and begin to ask the right questions for himself and begin to rely on reason and logic instead of blind faith(or perhaps that you yourself are not nearly as convinced as you seem to be.)

What you must understand is that from an insane persons perspective everyone else perspectives are equally skewed. We all use logic and reason to assure ourselves that the insane perspective is skewed. We have to do this to protect society from any actions by the insane that might be harmful to ourselves and to the insane themselves.
The very definition of an insane perspective is one that does not seem to be grounded in reality i.e one that does not conform to observable fact.
Of course this is the very definition of religious belief as well.
By and large religious beliefs do not seem to have any harmful effects on society and non-religious members of society (an observation that can be quite hotly debated), but in fact in can and it does. We have laws to protect us from the potential dangers of religious perspectives. The separation of church and state and the right to free-speech are two. History has shown us that if we allow people with religious perspectives to have political power they will very often use said power to force their perspective on others and to silence those with perspectives that contradict their own.
This has been done by all three of the major judeo/christian religions to varying degrees in the past and as we speak people belonging to all three are continuing to do so.
The point of all this is that what protects all of us is laws based on the principles of reason and logic. As long as we have such laws in place you can rest assured that your children will never be taught that Hinduism, judaism , Buddhism, or any other religion as fact in school. Of course members of those faiths can rest assured that Christianity will never be forced down their throats as fact. You can also rest assured that you will have the right to speak from a christian perspective.
So you see the principles of reason and logic actually ensure your right to view the world from any perspective you wish. Without them you could just as easily be being persecuted for your beliefs.
I'll say it again the human perspective of reason and logic is the only valid perspective for the purposes of open debate and investigation. When religion sets itself in opposition to it, it undermines the validity of its own perspective.
By all means decide where you draw the line as to what you will take on proof and what you're willing to take on faith, but at least do humanity as a whole the service of acknowledging that a perspective based on faith is irrational and that for the sake of a better world and the alleviation of physical suffering in the here and now, scepticism towards all perspectives is humanities only hope.

[fivelza]

The problem with religious people is that they don't understand (or don't want to) that there beliefs are no more sound than those of the dead religions of the past. You have no more proof or evidence, just a larger following.

Please don't generalise icyrus, once again there are many points and questions that have been validly raised that Christians simply do not have answers for. My point is that I do not need scientific proof, there is evidence enough for me that supports my faith. It may not be enough for you..fair enough.

[icyrus]

Please don't generalise icyrus, once again there are many points and questions that have been validly raised that Christians simply do not have answers for. My point is that I do not need scientific proof, there is evidence enough for me that supports my faith. It may not be enough for you..fair enough.

Care to share what proof you have?

[chiskop]

How is that a generalisation?

[Safferbeauty]

I have not been following this tread entirely because i have not had time but I have picked up that a couple of you have said that God has only invited the christians to take part in his grace. He invited the whole world to take part in his grace. He sent his son down to die on the cross for all of us. He has never changed his mind otherwise what the bible says would not be true.

[Syndyre]

I have not been following this tread entirely because i have not had time but I have picked up that a couple of you have said that God has only invited the christians to take part in his grace. He invited the whole world to take part in his grace. He sent his son down to die on the cross for all of us. He has never changed his mind otherwise what the bible says would not be true.

He invited the whole world to take part through the process of becoming Christian though. You can't remain a Muslim or Jew for instance and take part.

[fivelza]

Icyrus, this becomes a very personal and subjective view, but let me give you a few examples. Many of these will naturally be based on my belief that God created everything.

- I look out of my office window and see birds and nature all around
- I look at my daughter
- I see kindness in many, just by a smile that they show

I accept that you may see my points as frivolous and probably will poke huge holes in them, fair enough. I also accept that there will be many who are looking for hard evidence, but too my previous point, it still revolves around a relationship.

[fivelza]

How is that a generalisation?

I assume that icyrus includes me in his definition of 'religious people' and what they believe?

[Safferbeauty]

There are lots of jews and even muslims that accept God's grace. I believe that when I go up to heaven that I will see lots of people from other religions up in heaven.

[chiskop]

The problem with religious people is that they don't understand (or don't want to) that there beliefs are no more sound than those of the dead religions of the past. You have no more proof or evidence, just a larger following.

So fivelza, if you disagree with what you claim is a generalisation, what are you saying?

Are you saying that you believe that all religions, including the dead ones of the past, have equally valid foundations?

Or, are you saying that you do understand that your religion's beliefs are no more sound than those of the dead religions of the past?

And as for birds etc. :mad:

I have a small daughter, I look at her and think what a wonderful child full of joy and potential. I don't need to ascribe that to anything but her personality, well, and her parent's excellent genes. :D

[chiskop]

There are lots of jews and even muslims that accept God's grace. I believe that when I go up to heaven that I will see lots of people from other religions up in heaven.


I know that when they put me in the ground I too will be surrounded by people of all religious backgrounds. :)

[Syndyre]

There are lots of jews and even muslims that accept God's grace. I believe that when I go up to heaven that I will see lots of people from other religions up in heaven.


I'm just saying according to Christian beliefs they can only accept God as "J3sus", not as "Allah" or however they see it.

[raoul]

I'm just saying according to Christian beliefs they can only accept God as "J3sus", not as "Allah" or however they see it.

Well, as per my belief, what you call water, I call paani in my language. It doesnt make 'it' different, does it? Just a little bit linguistic/cultural difference? Maybe some C'ans believe that as well?

[Syndyre]

Well, as per my belief, what you call water, I call paani in my language. It doesnt make 'it' different, does it? Just a little bit linguistic/cultural difference? Maybe some C'ans believe that as well?

Maybe, and that's how I see it, different representations of the same underlying idea/principle, but most Christian churches don't see it that way.

[Highflyer_GP]

I'm just saying according to Christian beliefs they can only accept God as "J3sus", not as "Allah" or however they see it.
I was under the impression that God was Christ, Jesus was his son and then you still have the holy spirit. Come to think of it, this sounds more and more like polytheism in disguise.

Well, as per my belief, what you call water, I call paani in my language. It doesnt make 'it' different, does it? Just a little bit linguistic/cultural difference? Maybe some C'ans believe that as well?
Are you Hindi by any chance?

[Nick333]

I was under the impression that God was Christ, Jesus was his son and then you still have the holy spirit. Come to think of it, this sounds more and more like polytheism in disguise.



Oh yes! And when you take into account all the patron saints of this and that, and of course all the angels, what you have is polytheism but not really because the church says its not. :D

[BCO]

I thought this thread was about bible quotes.

[Nick333]

There are lots of jews and even muslims that accept God's grace. I believe that when I go up to heaven that I will see lots of people from other religions up in heaven.

Well its nice of you to see it that way, but unfortunately Christianity doesn't share your view. ***** specifically says that the only way to God is through him. Which means all the rest are doomed to hell I'm afraid. That means an eternity of suffering with no respite is the price you pay for believing what your parents told you you should believe, if what they told you to believe in was not him.
Don't feel to bad though because Muslims are quite convince that you and all your non-islam believing kind are destined for the same fate.

[raoul]

I was under the impression that God was Christ, Jesus was his son and then you still have the holy spirit. Come to think of it, this sounds more and more like polytheism in disguise.

Are you Hindi by any chance?

I have read that one meaning of monotheism is oneness in god, so in that sense church does not propogate polytheism even if it supports trinity.

Hindi is language , not religion per se. :)

[Highflyer_GP]

I have read that one meaning of monotheism is oneness in god, so in that sense church does not propogate polytheism even if it supports trinity.

Hindi is language , not religion per se. :)
I understand the definition that the church tries to pass off, however Christ and Jesus are obviously two separate entities if one is father and one is son. There can be no oneness.

Ah my apologies for the misunderstanding, Hindu is the religion while Hindi is the language. I meant are you Hindi-speaking :)

[Nick333]

I understand the definition that the church tries to pass off, however Christ and Jesus are obviously two separate entities if one is father and one is son. There can be no oneness.



No.No.No. God is god and ***** is the Christ. And the holy spirit is...well a ghosty, spirity thing that you're not meant to understand anyway. And they're all one person...but not really. Or is that the other way round? Anyway your'e bot meant to understand it. The pope says its true. OK?

Jeez Highflyer you really are a heathen aren't you? :eek:

[Highflyer_GP]

No.No.No. God is god and ***** is the Christ. And the holy spirit is...well a ghosty, spirity thing that you're not meant to understand anyway. And they're all one person...but not really. Or is that the other way round? Anyway your'e bot meant to understand it. The pope says its true. OK?

Jeez Highflyer you really are a heathen aren't you? :eek:

Sorry I should never have doubted the Pope :o

Forgive me father for I have sinned :/

[raoul]

Well its nice of you to see it that way, but unfortunately Christianity doesn't share your view. ***** specifically says that the only way to God is through him.

I would like to think that one must segregate C'nity and vatican C'nity. Vatican C'nity probably believes what you say, otherwise why would they insist on conversions for salvation?

For me, when C'ian says' "only way to God is thro J" , I interpret it as J is name given by C'ian to an entity that I call something else, so there is absolutely no conflict.

[Nick333]

Sorry I should never have doubted the Pope :o

Forgive me father for I have sinned :/

That'll be one million hail mary's and 2 million our fathers and Father Oreilly wants to spank your bottom (in private in the vestry) for being such a naughty boy.

[Nick333]

I would like to think that one must segregate C'nity and vatican C'nity. Vatican C'nity probably believes what you say, otherwise why would they insist on conversions for salvation?

For me, when C'ian says' "only way to God is thro J" , I interpret it as J is name given by C'ian to an entity that I call something else, so there is absolutely no conflict.

Why do you assume that I'm talking about c'th'l'c chr'st'n't'y ? Where in the bible is JC s statement qualified. Where do you get the authority to inject your own doctrine into chr'st'n't'y. I think you're really one of those new agers who thinks that religion is a salad bar that you can pick and choose what you want to believe from. It doesn't work that way sonny boy. Its either you believe in the bible in its entirety or burn in hell.

[Highflyer_GP]

Its either you believe in the bible in its entirety or burn in hell.
Or the Koran for that matter.

Wonder if there'll be more muslims in hell for not believing in Christ, or more christians for not believing in Allah.

[Nick333]

Or the Koran for that matter.

Wonder if there'll be more muslims in hell for not believing in Christ, or more christians for not believing in Allah.

Maybe all the mormons in heaven could offer an oppinion.

[raoul]

religion is a salad bar that you can pick and choose what you want to believe from.

ROFL :D

[raoul]

Why do you assume that I'm talking about c'th'l'c chr'st'n't'y ? Where in the bible is JC s statement qualified. Where do you get the authority to inject your own doctrine into chr'st'n't'y. I think you're really one of those new agers who thinks that religion is a salad bar that you can pick and choose what you want to believe from. It doesn't work that way sonny boy. Its either you believe in the bible in its entirety or burn in hell.

A bit tense today, are we not? :)

I was just expressing personal opinion [Hint: I started each paragraph with "I would like to think", "For me" etc.] which I reckon this forum allows even if one is authority or not.

Also, apologies to anyone offended if I confused C'ianity with C'lic C'ianity, one lives and learns.

[sonxEr77]

i believe that "we" will see them in heaven

You seem to believe there's heaven & there'll be people going to heaven, well this means you believe in the Bible and that doing good may attain one the kingdom of heaven, that's a good start isn't it?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

But! Not every good man or Christian will go to heaven!.. Doing good or being a Christian and doing His will could resort to major differences... Thus, people who have not accepted God as a personal savior to rule their lives are definitely not going according to His will..

[fivelza]

A bit tense today, are we not? :)

I was just expressing personal opinion [Hint: I started each paragraph with "I would like to think", "For me" etc.] which I reckon this forum allows even if one is authority or not.

Also, apologies to anyone offended if I confused C'ianity with C'lic C'ianity, one lives and learns.

Hmmm I always thought that Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian etc were denominations.....Christianity is the faith itself ;)

[chiskop]

Hmmm I always thought that Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian etc were denominations.....Christianity is the faith itself ;)

Ha ha - go and tell them that one in Northern Ireland.

[simple_simon]

once again a topic in which people are arguing about what "god said"......god did not write the bible...men did....***** did not write the bible....men did.

men who were also the government at the same time. there were no commandments, these were rules primative man made up and used to try regulate his fellow men's behavior to create a stable society. how else would they "obey" if a fancy little story about god telling moses his "laws" hadn't been created with it

[fivelza]

once again a topic in which people are arguing about what "god said"......god did not write the bible...men did....***** did not write the bible....men did.

men who were also the government at the same time. there were no commandments, these were rules primative man made up and used to try regulate his fellow men's behavior to create a stable society. how else would they "obey" if a fancy little story about god telling moses his "laws" hadn't been created with it

Yes men did write the bible but they were inspired by God. Fair point about the rules/laws in the bible.

[raoul]

Ha ha - go and tell them that one in Northern Ireland.

I wouldnt, if I were you.

:D

[simple_simon]

Yes men did write the bible but they were inspired by God. Fair point about the rules/laws in the bible.

inspired by god or their own ego?

and wait then that leads to the following statements...."who's god...yours or mine?"

i think people should be a bit more circumspect when reading such things. the ego of man can be a terrible thing. we see it everyday in the newspapers....it was just as relevant back then when all these things were written.

[Nick333]

A bit tense today, are we not? :)

I was just expressing personal opinion [Hint: I started each paragraph with "I would like to think", "For me" etc.] which I reckon this forum allows even if one is authority or not.

Also, apologies to anyone offended if I confused C'ianity with C'lic C'ianity, one lives and learns.

Yes and I was just joking. My point is your oppinion doesn't really count. What counts is the vast majority of christians who do believe that christianity is the only way to get to heaven. Or Muslims or whoever else believes in some heaven or other.

[Nick333]

Yes men did write the bible but they were inspired by God. Fair point about the rules/laws in the bible.

The best factual claim you could make in this regard is that the bible was written by men who claimed to have been inspired by god. Or, that you believe the bible was written by men who were inspired by god.

[Nick333]

Yes and I was just joking. My point is your oppinion doesn't really count. What counts is the vast majority of christians who do believe that christianity is the only way to get to heaven. Or Muslims or whoever else believes in some heaven or other.

Actually to elaborate, bible believing fundamentalists are the only true christians. The rest of you pick and chose and interpret the bible to suit your own personal beliefs. As soon as you begin to interpret the bible and either ignore the bits you don't like or dream up justifications for the more ridiculous and/or horrific commands or claims, you basically start to chip away at christianity. The ID types who are undermining their own democracy in the US do this by claiming all the blanks that science hasn't filled in yet for God and conceding all the points that science has proven. They are destined to lose any time science fills in a new blank because they'll have to concede that indeed religion was wrong yet again.
The fundamentalists at least are straight forward about their belief in god. Theyre willing to say that all science that contradicts the bible is wrong and the bible is always right. They don't beat around the bush when it comes to religious freedom and freedom of speech: they just don't want any of that. The most hardcore fundamentalist wont even try and justify stoning gays by saying that somehow the NT says you should let god handle it. They'll just ****ing stone one givin the chance.
The namby pamby PC christians who try and sell you creationism as science will sell out their beliefs little by little just to stay in the argument.
So really you do believe in the bible as infallible or your'e basically clutching at straws and recreating the christian god in your own image. Why not just admit its bull**** in its entirety?

[headstrong]

Not all people believe in God because of the Bible!!!

Some belive in God because of the great things he has done in their lives!!

I believe that a miracle happened to me and that is why I am still alive...

....I huge garden fork was thrown over a 4m wall and landed on my shoulder blades but it didnt leave a mark! It could have pierced my neck and I could have died!....But because of God it landed on my shoulder blade and bounced off leaving me unharmed!!....

If he can save me while I wasnt a christian and didnt read the bible...Imagine what he will do for me now that I am a christian.. :)

[Nick333]

Not all people believe in God because of the Bible!!!

Some belive in God because of the great things he has done in their lives!!

I believe that a miracle happened to me and that is why I am still alive...

....I huge garden fork was thrown over a 4m wall and landed on my shoulder blades but it didnt leave a mark! It could have pierced my neck and I could have died!....But because of God it landed on my shoulder blade and bounced off leaving me unharmed!!....

If he can save me while I wasnt a christian and didnt read the bible...Imagine what he will do for me now that I am a christian.. :)

So why do you believe it was the christian god who saved you?

[simple_simon]

Not all people believe in God because of the Bible!!!

Some belive in God because of the great things he has done in their lives!!

I believe that a miracle happened to me and that is why I am still alive...

....I huge garden fork was thrown over a 4m wall and landed on my shoulder blades but it didnt leave a mark! It could have pierced my neck and I could have died!....But because of God it landed on my shoulder blade and bounced off leaving me unharmed!!....

If he can save me while I wasnt a christian and didnt read the bible...Imagine what he will do for me now that I am a christian.. :)

just curios as to why you chose christianity after this incident. by my logic i would of concluded that if i was a christian or not didn't matter in the end.

its always interesting to see how people interpret miraculous events that happen to them.

[fivelza]

inspired by god or their own ego?

and wait then that leads to the following statements...."who's god...yours or mine?"

i think people should be a bit more circumspect when reading such things. the ego of man can be a terrible thing. we see it everyday in the newspapers....it was just as relevant back then when all these things were written.

How can one be circumspect when reading something that is central to our faith?

[Tux]

Not all people believe in God because of the Bible!!!

Some belive in God because of the great things he has done in their lives!!

I believe that a miracle happened to me and that is why I am still alive...

....I huge garden fork was thrown over a 4m wall and landed on my shoulder blades but it didnt leave a mark! It could have pierced my neck and I could have died!....But because of God it landed on my shoulder blade and bounced off leaving me unharmed!!....

If he can save me while I wasnt a christian and didnt read the bible...Imagine what he will do for me now that I am a christian.. :)

My sentiments exactly.
When I was in the army, I was involved in a let's call it a situation. 40mm rifle grenade exploded right in front of my right foot. All the data and stuff says I should be dead.

That particular grenade has a lethal blast radius of 5m on soft ground, 25m on solid ground/concrete. It was solid rock i was standing on.

Blast threw me about 30m. Brand new R4 rifle looked like a pretzel. Every single piece of kit I carried had to be scrapped. Just about blew my right boot clean off of my foot.

So I should be dead, instead all i suffered was a broken leg, sprained shoulder (landed on it) and several hundred nasty ugly shrapnel wounds. First thing I did when i was semi-coherent was to see if i still got my nuts :D

Didnt even lose a toe. All i have left of that is a couple of ugly scars and the odd nightmare. Anybody that wants to tell me there's no God (dont matter if his name is God, Yahweh, Allah or even Koos for all I care) looked out for us...
Please explain to me how I survived that before you go on with your agnostic BS

[raoul]

So why do you believe it was the christian god who saved you?

probably coz he met GF in church, am I right headstrong?.

[headstrong mentions this elsewhere on the forum in some other context, I swear]

:p

[fivelza]

probably coz he met GF in church, am I right headstrong?.

[headstrong mentions this elsewhere on the forum in some other context, I swear]

:p

LOL Raoul, happens to a lot of us :D

[simple_simon]

How can one be circumspect when reading something that is central to our faith?

thats the whole point. what have you based your faith on. people don't ask this question enought.

thats where the term "sheeple" come from

[Nick333]

Please explain to me how I survived that before you go on with your agnostic BS

Atheist BS actually.

My answer would be that **** happens. I wasn't there so I can't exactly do a forensic investigation now can I.

Answer me this if God saved your ass then why? Why did he pick you over all the millions of people who die in horrible accidents every year? More specifically, why doesn't he save thousands of innocent kids who get there limbs blown off by land-mines every year? Why are you more important to God than innocent children?
The simple answer is because you are not. You are just bloody lucky ( a fact Im honestly gratefull for, for your sake.)

[Nick333]

LOL Raoul, happens to a lot of us :D

So you might have been a Muslim if you had a thing for middle-eastern chicks?

[fivelza]

thats the whole point. what have you based your faith on. people don't ask this question enought.

thats where the term "sheeple" come from

Simon, from my earlier posts, my faith is not based on the bible but on a personal relationship with God...I don't have a relationship with the bible ;)

The bible provides a lot of guidance on how to live out your faith.

[fivelza]

So you might have been a Muslim if you had a thing for middle-eastern chicks?

ROFL :D

[simple_simon]

My sentiments exactly.
When I was in the army, I was involved in a let's call it a situation. 40mm rifle grenade exploded right in front of my right foot. All the data and stuff says I should be dead.

That particular grenade has a lethal blast radius of 5m on soft ground, 25m on solid ground/concrete. It was solid rock i was standing on.

Blast threw me about 30m. Brand new R4 rifle looked like a pretzel. Every single piece of kit I carried had to be scrapped. Just about blew my right boot clean off of my foot.

So I should be dead, instead all i suffered was a broken leg, sprained shoulder (landed on it) and several hundred nasty ugly shrapnel wounds. First thing I did when i was semi-coherent was to see if i still got my nuts :D

Didnt even lose a toe. All i have left of that is a couple of ugly scars and the odd nightmare. Anybody that wants to tell me there's no God (dont matter if his name is God, Yahweh, Allah or even Koos for all I care) looked out for us...
Please explain to me how I survived that before you go on with your agnostic BS

who you directing this too?

i vehmently believe in miraculous events as one has happened to me, just not in the extreme context that yours did. its an amazing story. i just asked the lad why after this event happened he chose then to be a christian

[simple_simon]

Simon, from my earlier posts, my faith is not based on the bible but on a personal relationship with God...I don't have a relationship with the bible ;)

The bible provides a lot of guidance on how to live out your faith.

okay.

have you read any book from the kryon series?

[simple_simon]

All i have left of that is a couple of ugly scars and the odd nightmare.

why don't you get rid of your nightmare's?

[fivelza]

okay.

have you read any book from the kryon series?

Simon I haven't, what would they be about?

[simple_simon]

Simon I haven't, what would they be about?

there's one in particular that is even titled with what you said earlier about your personal relationship with god.

in the book its spoken about as a partnership with god. i.e your higherself. the theme through the series is that people can grow spiritualy without any help from any religion or any other person...that every person has everything they need from birth to achieve spirtual growth by looking within, this is always slightly differnt due to that persons cultural upbringing...but in essence the same result is achieved.

its called kryon book 7 - partnering with good (i think its 7...not sure...there are 10 of them)

you might like it, you might not

www.kryon.com for more details

[Tux]

why don't you get rid of your nightmare's?

It helps me remember...

[Nick333]

okay.

have you read any book from the kryon series?

Is this what you believe SS ?

[headstrong]

So why do you believe it was the christian god who saved you?

?



just curios as to why you chose christianity after this incident. by my logic i would of concluded that if i was a christian or not didn't matter in the end.



Coz I have many other "christian friends" that have had similar experiences...... I have a friend that prayed for another guy who cudnt walk and he ended up running...God worked through my him....he is a really strong christian with lots of faith and that how he culd do it... I cud never do that at the moment with my little faith!

U dnt need to believe me and I dont have any proof except for my own experiences and what Gru mentioned




probably coz he met GF in church, am I right headstrong


I met my GF after I became a Christian!



Answer me this if God saved your ass then why? Why did he pick you over all the millions of people who die in horrible accidents every year? More specifically, why doesn't he save thousands of innocent kids who get there limbs blown off by land-mines every year?




Simon, from my earlier posts, my faith is not based on the bible but on a personal relationship with God...I don't have a relationship with the bible

The bible provides a lot of guidance on how to live out your faith.


Now does a muslim hav a personal relasionship with alah?



Well maybee he does but u just dont hear about it! Dying isnt neccessarliy bad, to die is to gain!! Die on earth with things like murder and starvation all around you, or dying on earth and going to heaven were there is no murder, landmines, starvation?!!!



You are just bloody lucky ( a fact Im honestly gratefull for, for your sake.)


Or God lets things happen to people and because they they become Christians afterwards( a blown off foot is much better if u end up living in heaven for eternity as apposed to living in torture in hell for ever!!)




there's one in particular that is even titled with what you said earlier about your personal relationship with god.

in the book its spoken about as a partnership with god. i.e your higherself. the theme through the series is that people can grow spiritualy without any help from any religion or any other person...that every person has everything they need from birth to achieve spirtual growth by looking within, this is always slightly differnt due to that persons cultural upbringing...but in essence the same result is achieved.

its called kryon book 7 - partnering with good (i think its 7...not sure...there are 10 of them)



Kryon seems to be all about your self and not helping any1 else.... Does this answer why all those children are loosing limbs to landmines? every1 is too busy worrying about them selves!!

Christianity gives you a desire to help other people!!

[Captain Beer]

You know you don't go to heaven straight away? :D

Oh and even some Christians don't believe in hell.

[Safferbeauty]

you do go to heaven straight away. Your spirit does. It is your body that goes to sleep. Your body will be reunited with your spirit when ***** comes back to earth.

[LoneGunman]

I believe in the Big Floating Head myself, hang on - he's just given me a message to pass on.
"If you judge anyone else - then you act against the direct teachings (as quoted), of J3sus - and therefore - are NOT a Chr1stian."
Furthermore -
"If you eat meat - according to the Bible, you are also going to Hell."
Sweet dreams.

[nthdimension]

Or God lets things happen to people and because they they become Christians afterwards
God really does work in psychotic ways.


Christianity gives you a desire to help other people!!
Some of us are naturally good and don't need religion.

When it comes to heaven and hell we have no reliable information on what hell would be like. God is naturally going to claim his place is where all the cool cats are hanging out. Lucifer is supposedly a deceiver and is going to torture everyone who comes to stay. I also tell my customers that my product is better than that of my competitors. I have sometimes read claims that hell will be punishment because those who go there will be separated from God and that in itself will be torture, but we're all doing fine without getting intimate with God.

What it comes down to is that some people believe God is good and honest because God said so.

[Captain Beer]

you do go to heaven straight away. Your spirit does. It is your body that goes to sleep. Your body will be reunited with your spirit when ***** comes back to earth.

No no, go read your Bible.

How the **** can your body go to sleep? You body will be dust eventually.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten

OOPPPSSS!

[headstrong]

Oh and even some Christians don't believe in hell.

Did u thumb suck that out ur ass? !!!!!

If they dnt believe in Hell then they aren't christians!



"If you eat meat - according to the Bible, you are also going to Hell."
Sweet dreams..

Are u looking at the Old Testament or the New Testament? Dont get confused with what the "law" said 2000 years ago and what the Bible says......

Read this story about when J3sus feeds the 5000 with only a few loafs of bread and a few fish? ( yes fish, aka meat ) http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/04exploringchristianity/favoritestories.asp?id=78&txtSearchString=Matthew%2014:13-21

[Captain Beer]

Headstrong, you are a pretty dumb ****!

I went to a Christian school for eight ****ing years! Don't tell me i'm sucking **** out my ass!

Oh and you judged people that don't believe in Hell, you're pretty screwed then according to the Bible.

[headstrong]

Ok soz I woz i bit rude...

A person is clasified as a christian on their actions and not what school they go too...or what church they go to gor that matter. If some1 had to say to me i'm a christian coz I go to church every sunday I won't regard him/her as a christian...If they say to me I'm a christian coz I helped a homeless guy by giving him some food....and that they have accepted J3sus Christ into their lives.....then I will believe him

If u read the bible u will discover that christianity does include the belief in heaven...http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/05discoverthenlt/ssresults.asp?txtSearchString=heaven&forceKey=yes&find.x=21&find.y=15

[Captain Beer]

I know you guys believe in heaven, what i'm saying is that certain groups don't believe you go straight away. And many also don't believe in hell. Doesn't make them more or less Christian than you.

[PostmanPot]

it makes me sad how people base surviving accidents on god.

[headstrong]

Not all groups believe in heaven..correct...but then they are a different group to christianity....


it makes me sad how people base surviving accidents on god.

What do u base it on? Chuck Norris?

[Captain Beer]

Not all groups believe in heaven..correct...but then they are a different group to christianity....



What do u base it on? Chuck Norris?

J3sus did you actually read what I said?

I said they don't believe in HELL, I never said they didn't believe in HEAVEN..

And dude, I have a feeling you aren't Christian yourself. You just stirring ***!

[PostmanPot]

Not all groups believe in heaven..correct...but then they are a different group to christianity....



What do u base it on? Chuck Norris?

why does it need to be based on something?

[headstrong]

it makes me sad how people base surviving accidents on god.



What do u base it on? Chuck Norris?
.



why does it need to be based on something?
.

It doesnt need to be based on something... I personally believe that it woz God!



You just stirring ***!
.

No i'm not.. I am exercising my constitutional right to express my opinion :) BTW I posted links to backup my statements .....

[Captain Beer]

Ja I also posted things to back up my statement.

The problem I have with ANY religion is that it makes most people close minded.

[seburn]

Ja I also posted things to back up my statement.

The problem I have with ANY religion is that it makes most people close minded.

That is the idea behind it, to control you need no one to question.

[Captain Beer]

That is the idea behind it, to control you need no one to question.

Ja and anyone that does question is a Devil Worshiper :p

[seburn]

You guessed it I was wondering who would say it first about me.

[Captain Beer]

Don't worry dude, I've been called that often!

[Safferbeauty]

You do go to heaven straight away. I did some research and I will find scriptures to back my statement up.

[Captain Beer]

You do go to heaven straight away. I did some research and I will find scriptures to back my statement up.

Ja that's your opinion.

What research? Did you watch John Edward or something?

[Captain Beer]

Genesis 3:19

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Go have a look at:
John 5:28-29
Daniel 12:2
John 3:13 (ouch)

[simple_simon]

Is this what you believe SS ?

yes. its basically about taking responsibility for your life, for everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. its all your doing. no one can do anything to you without your persmission. the next step is about communicating with your higher self (some people call god, allah, yaweh, etc) and starting to tell your higherself what you want to create in your life, what you want to happen.

god doesn't do anything for you....you work together to achieve what you really want.

[simple_simon]

Kryon seems to be all about your self and not helping any1 else.... Does this answer why all those children are loosing limbs to landmines? every1 is too busy worrying about them selves!!

Christianity gives you a desire to help other people!!

spot the evangelical.

how can you help others if you can't even help yourself? helping yourself first will lead to others been helped without you doing anything other than helping yourself.

you should give them a read....it might mess with you current logic behind such events.

[fivelza]

This is where Christianity and the above (although I haven't read any of the kyron books) are at opposite ends of the scale. As Christians we should fully rely on God in every aspect, so the 'I want to be in control' goes out the window and 'God is in control' comes in.

Now that being said, this is easier said than done as I am sure that many Christians can testify to, we normally still try and control some area of our lives, or at least I do ;)

[simple_simon]

This is where Christianity and the above (although I haven't read any of the kyron books) are at opposite ends of the scale. As Christians we should fully rely on God in every aspect, so the 'I want to be in control' goes out the window and 'God is in control' comes in.

Now that being said, this is easier said than done as I am sure that many Christians can testify to, we normally still try and control some area of our lives, or at least I do ;)

its the expansion of the logic that is lacking.....god is everything that is and everything that isn't. you are part of the everything that is.......hence you are a part of god.

according to what you just said, you are allowed to control yourself as you are god (atleast an aspect)

the responsibility part also comes in....you are responsible for your life...waiting for something to do something for you...falls in an irresponsible mentality.... "asseweblief baas, doen dit vir my baas"

that sort of thinking doesn't really cut it anymore

[sonxEr77]

J3sus did you actually read what I said?
***!

I see u decided to talk to Him directly!:D this topic is getting too hot

[fivelza]

its the expansion of the logic that is lacking.....god is everything that is and everything that isn't. you are part of the everything that is.......hence you are a part of god.

according to what you just said, you are allowed to control yourself as you are god (atleast an aspect)

the responsibility part also comes in....you are responsible for your life...waiting for something to do something for you...falls in an irresponsible mentality.... "asseweblief baas, doen dit vir my baas"

that sort of thinking doesn't really cut it anymore

Not even close to what I meant Simon, perhaps I didn't express myself well :( My point was more if we are fully obedient to the will of God we would trust him totally. I am fully responsible for my life and actions, but reliant on God.

We try and control our lives because we do not fully trust God, I put that down to human frailty more than anything else or stubbornness.

What I have seen from some Christians (I think the point you make very well) is this behaviour of, 'If I believe, trust and obey God and then SIT ON MY BUTT AND DO NOTHING, everything will be fine'. I've defined that myself as passive Christianity which is worth nothing.

I hope I have made myself a bit clearer :)

[Safferbeauty]

Ja that's your opinion.

What research? Did you watch John Edward or something? i did read my bible. Go look at 2 Corinthians 5:3 in my NIV bible it says even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgement on the one who did this, just as if i were present. So to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.

[Captain Beer]

Did you actually read the ones I posted?

And BTW, that's not what it says in 2 Corinthians 5:3!

[The_Librarian]

Seventh-Day Adventists believe that when you die, you go to sleep. Your body returns to dust, but you go to sleep.

Is only logical - after all would you be happy sitting in Paradise with all the horrible things going on in the world?

When the final bugle blows and He returns then all shall wake up, some for eternal life, others for eternal death.

A period of 1000 years shall follow, with the Satan bound to the Earth for that period of time - during which period the Earth is desolate and empty.

After that period, final judgment is passed on Satan and he is thrown into the pool of fire, together with the animal and false prophet, there to burn for all time.

Those who did not receive His salvation, or who didn't believe in Him, won't be with Him in Paradise.

[The_Librarian]

Not even close to what I meant Simon, perhaps I didn't express myself well :( My point was more if we are fully obedient to the will of God we would trust him totally. I am fully responsible for my life and actions, but reliant on God.

We try and control our lives because we do not fully trust God, I put that down to human frailty more than anything else or stubbornness.

What I have seen from some Christians (I think the point you make very well) is this behaviour of, 'If I believe, trust and obey God and then SIT ON MY BUTT AND DO NOTHING, everything will be fine'. I've defined that myself as passive Christianity which is worth nothing.

I hope I have made myself a bit clearer :)
Amen to that - most Christians just sit there doing nothing. I don't like what some people say in these threads, for they make a mockery of our belief, but do try to post a few words of truth here and there...

I've decided to become more involved as passive Christianity is plain wrong, we need to be more active and reach out to others.

[Captain Beer]

That's the biggest mistake you guys make is reaching out to others. Nothing puts a non-believer off quicker than someone nagging them!

[The_Librarian]

That's the biggest mistake you guys make is reaching out to others. Nothing puts a non-believer off quicker than someone nagging them!

I agree with you here...

And that's the mistake most Christians do - they nag the others constantly, and that put them off.

J3sus did not nag, He merely set an example which we should follow.

Yes, we should make others aware, but must not force them to choose (or nag them) - merely let them choose for themselves. If they decide to walk away, then let them be, after all it's their decision.

But, yes, it's difficult - too little information and the person loses interest. Too much, and he is scared off for life.

[fivelza]

That's the biggest mistake you guys make is reaching out to others. Nothing puts a non-believer off quicker than someone nagging them!

Reaching ouch doesn't mean only 'bible bashing' them, it could be something simple like lending a helping hand or just being there for them in a time of need. I am not an evangelist, but there certainly is a great need and place for it.

[The_Librarian]

Reaching ouch doesn't mean only 'bible bashing' them, it could be something simple like lending a helping hand or just being there for them in a time of need. I am not an evangelist, but there certainly is a great need and place for it.

That's what I've meant, thanx fivel... ;)

People do need a helping hand from time to time - otherwise we all will croak.

[Safferbeauty]

Did you actually read the ones I posted?

And BTW, that's not what it says in 2 Corinthians 5:3!

no i have not read the other scriptures you have given me but you must also really read my scriptures too.

[Captain Beer]

Ja, I did.

[Safferbeauty]

Toilet Duck I really wanna be friends with you. I dont want Christianity or any religion to come between us. I will sit down just now and really read those scriptures to you.

[The_Librarian]

Links regarding to my postings above :

1. Life after Death :

http://www.christians.co.za/vers/dead_wander.htm



Do the spirits of the dead wander about on earth?

No! The Bible teaches very clearly that when one has died, it is impossible that his soul or spirit or whatever you may call it, that entered the abode of the dead, can come back to earth. Jobÿ207:9-10 says: "Like a cloud that fades and is gone, people die and never return." David, mourning the death of a child says: "I will some day go to where he is, but he can never come back to me" (2 Samuel 12:23).

The spirits of those who die, go to the abode of the dead immediately when the last breath has ceased. They cannot, in any form whatsoever, come back to earth. J esus taught that clearly in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). They shall remain there where they are until the second coming of Christ, when the dead shall rise.

What we call "ghosts" cannot be the spirits of our departed loved ones. These mysterious things are the works of the Evil one and his many demons. They can appear in different forms, even imitating the departed loved ones. The devil can appear as an angel of light to deceive the children of God (2 Corinthians 11:14). We must not underestimate him and his power. And we must never, ever try to contact the spirits of those who have died. God forbids it, because He knows the evil powers of the devil (Leviticus 20:6).

When a person dies and breathes his last breath, his body goes to the grave, but his spirit immediately enters the abode of the dead (Luke 23:43). God's children go to where J esus is, while unbelievers go to another place. But let it be clear: They can never come back to be wandering spirits.

[Captain Beer]

You SDA?

What you doing on the internet on a Friday after sunset? :D

[The_Librarian]

You SDA?

What you doing on the internet on a Friday after sunset? :D

Good question - but doing some research regarding some of the stuff people keep posting here... ;) Nothing wrong with Bible study on the Internet is there? :)

And waiting for spousal unit to come to bed...

[The_Librarian]

Ahhh... here's a great list for all and sundry to peek and poke at...

http://www.christians.co.za/vers/index.asp

Note that as SDA I don't agree with their Sabbath definition, but will let it pass - for now.

[Safferbeauty]

I will check it out librarian.

[Nick333]

I'd like to share some good news with all of you.Most of you will reject it because you are not ready to face the liberating truth of what I say. But I tell you my friends that though you feel fear and loathing when you hear my words, if you would only dare let yourselves accept the possibillity that my words are true you will catch a glimpse of such an awsome and magnificent truth that your fear will be overcome by a sense of wonder and peace.

There is no God who watches you. Before you were born there was no you and when you die there will be no you.

There is no evil except the evil we do to each other out of fear and ignorance. There is immeasurable good and we can create more, simply by overcoming our fear and ignorance.

Our home is the Universe and in its immensity we know of no other place were beings capable of contemplating its immensity and grandeur have evolved and that is this tiny speck of a planet we call earth.

We are how the universe experiences itself. WE ARE THE UNIVERSE. It is the duty of each one of us to experience the universe(ourselves) to the fullest because for all we know there may never again be another oppertunity.

No question should ever go unasked. No question that can possibly be answered should go unanswered.

Each one of us is immeasurably special because of our abillity to experience and question our existence. Therefore no being capable of conscious thought should be allowed to experience life in isolation. As far as we are able we should reach out respectfully to each of our fellow beings and share our experience of life. We should treat our fellow beings with respect and kindness in recognition of each others special place in the universe as beings capable of experiencing and questioning our existence.

All modes of thought that are born out of fear and ignorance should be rejected. They are no longer neccesary for our survival. Though they have served us well in the past they have now become a hinderence and should be cast aside albiet respectfully.


OK so I had too much coffee today :D

I was going to put some stuff in there about why we should love one another in this Godless universe of ours but I don't want to get to soppy.

Rejoice brothers and sisters there are no gods or God.

Actually I really like what I just wrote it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :)

[Safferbeauty]

Why do you say there is no God? Can you prove that there is no God?

[PostmanPot]

Toilet Duck I really wanna be friends with you. I dont want Christianity or any religion to come between us. I will sit down just now and really read those scriptures to you.

i find it difficult being friends with people who are not of the same mentality.

[PostmanPot]

nice post, Nick333.


Why do you say there is no God? Can you prove that there is no God?

is your bible proof that there is one?

[Captain Beer]

Good question - but doing some research regarding some of the stuff people keep posting here... ;) Nothing wrong with Bible study on the Internet is there? :)

And waiting for spousal unit to come to bed...

Cool beans.

I tried to do some work for ADRA last year, but I don't think they were to happy with my non-SDA status, is that a rule? (Not an attack, just an honest question).

[seburn]

Toilet_duck Nice Specs were ya saving up for ADSL ... do they still make 95 drivers

[Nick333]

Why do you say there is no God? Can you prove that there is no God?

Saffer, Saffer, Saffer. I can't disprove a lot of things, that doesn't mean that they exist.

I think I will bring love into it. Can you think of any better reason than my last post as to why we should, love and cherish each other as human beings?

God and immortality cant be because immortallity and the fear of being wrong and losing our immortality or burning in hell would then become the motivation for obeying Gods commandment to love one another.

If we take the logical view that this is the only life that there is and we see ourselves as something very rare in this vast universe, that is to say living beings capable of experience but ones capable of questioning things, we can love ourselves and each other for the brief and precious flashes of conciousness that happen so rarely in the immensity of all that there is.

If I may be so bold I would suggest that your real problem with my
theory is not so much that God doesnt have a place in it but that you willl one day seize to exist. It is the most natural fear of all, it stems from our survival instinct I have difficulty with it often enough myself. You see the belief in god stems from this most primal of fears. Its why people find it so easy to believe in something so unlikely. You could say we're so scared of dying, of not existing that we will cling to anything that gives us hope that we will actually live for ever.

The truth is there is no evidence wich leads us in anyway that we will live forever. No one can truely claim that any religious belief has evidence of immortallity. All religions require a leap of faith. We have to choose to believe. A choice so easy to make when we are faced with our greatest fear of all: our own mortallity.

But you see if we can come to terms with this fear we can begin to appreciate how truely glorious and amazing the universe is and how truely lucky we are to be alive even if only for the brief time that we are. We can appreciate how truely unique and special each one of us is. We can see how important it is to treasure every living being that shares our amazing luck.
We can truelly rejoice that their is no god that seeks to rob us of the true wonderous joy that is life by offering us the counterfeit hope that our fourscore and odd breif years of life is not really all that special after all.

[Captain Beer]

Toilet_duck Nice Specs were ya saving up for ADSL ... do they still make 95 drivers

33MHz FSB FTW :rolleyes:

Trying to save for a VESA motherboard.

[Nick333]

nice post, Nick333.


Thanks

[seburn]

I have come to conclude that http://www.christians.co.za
Is bullocks

bCause their main good/bad is bullocks
http://www.christians.co.za/vers/sinfull.htm


1. Are you already a true child of God? If not, you don't have to read further. Everything that you do, even your "best actions are filthy through and through" before God (Isaiah 64:6). And the holiest life does not count before God if you haven't received ***** Christ first of all (1 John 5:10-12).
Rubbish


Does it help me to win others to Christ?

Erm like crusades? Once again rubbish.


Am I sure that this thing is not sin? "Anything that is not based on faith is sin."


Then I do alot of sinfull things like read eat sleep visit mybroadband, go to work etc etc.

[Captain Beer]

http://www.christians.co.za/vers/sinfull.htm

You guys put hateful stuff like this out there and then wonder why people aren't interested.

I actually feel sick after reading that.

[seburn]

16MB RAM (4x4MB)

You maxed our you slots already!!!

I got a 64 and 32mb if ya feel like a free upgrade?

[Captain Beer]

Thanks hey, I think the max my board can take is 64MB :(

IIRC not even a Pentium1 can address more than 128MB.

[seburn]

I had a pc like that I OC 2 266Mhz and saw smoke :D

[Captain Beer]

What ratio did you use? Must have been about 8?

[seburn]

Probably got the wrong speed but was in that range of 4xoriginal speed.

I also didn't really see smoke :P I saw I blacked chip that smelt burnt.

[Captain Beer]

Should have left the heatsink off :D

[seburn]

I wasn't actually trying to pop it!

I could OC it alot and it seemed fine so pushed the limits after slowly OC little by little I took a leap.

[Captain Beer]

I never know how far to push a CPU. I had a Celeron 800 that I ran at 1.1GHz for over a year before it gave up.

[seburn]

I don't OC anymore unless you pay a small fortune on really really good cooling systems you will decrease the lifetime of the product. Judging from new std today the lifetime is not that long anymore to start with.

[The_Librarian]

Cool beans.

I tried to do some work for ADRA last year, but I don't think they were to happy with my non-SDA status, is that a rule? (Not an attack, just an honest question).

Mmm... will ask around a bit because that's an interesting quuution for sure.

[The_Librarian]

Some SDA beliefs :

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/


As for the previous few postings - why do you mess around with ancient PC parts? :p :D

[Captain Beer]

As for the previous few postings - why do you mess around with ancient PC parts? :p :D

You have no idea how many people still use old computers, especially in the townships, I often get old machines to fix.

Had someone last year that had a 386 that wasn't working, "upgraded" him to a DX4, he couldn't believe how "fast" his computer became :D Was still running 3.1.

[Safferbeauty]

Genesis 3:19

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Go have a look at:
John 5:28-29
Daniel 12:2
John 3:13 (ouch)

U have made some very valid points. I have always believed that when the body dies but have had a discussion with my mum's friend and she agrees with what has been said here so to be competely honest with you now I am feeling really confused about this now

[PostmanPot]

it's ok to be confused about it. you'll just end up asking more and more questions :)

[Safferbeauty]

Yeah. I just dont know what to think to be honest. I wanna find out and I wanna end this whole confusion but I supposed it is good to be confused at times because as u said thats when u ask more questions

[PostmanPot]

Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness; chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself. Think for yourself. Question authority.

Tool

[Safferbeauty]

You have a very valid point. I have been at a stage of my life where I did what everyone wanted me to do but that is going to stop from now on

[Captain Beer]

Che Guevara FTW!

[Boodles]

I should introduce my mum to this topic....

[Safferbeauty]

Che Guevara FTW!

What exactly does that mean?

[Nick333]

What exactly does that mean?

Lol I'm also interested to know.

[Safferbeauty]

Is that some kind of a new language or something?

[Captain Beer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

[Nick333]

He must be referring to Ches indomitable, revolutionary spirit that got him dead on a wild goose chase in the Bolivian jungle or somewhere.

Asterix FTW I say.

[Captain Beer]

Screw Asterix!

I just thought SB was starting a revolution!

[ToxicBunny]

If thats what blows your hair back.. I'm sure we can find a blow up doll that looks like Asterix....