Douwdouws Question.

[Nick333]

How wicked is the following doctrine circulated by the athiest community?


SOCIETY DETERMINE MORAL STANDARDS

Any comments?

First off, what do you mean by the atheist community? I think you are guilty of what Carl Sagan would call: creating a straw man, which he defines as:


caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..

See: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=62047 for other common fallacies of logic and rhetoric.


There is no atheist community to which you could attribute this alleged doctrine of "SOCIETY DETERMINE MORAL STANDARDS".

My question is: who else, but society, could possibly determine moral standards in a democracy?

[Jongi]

I see nothing wrong with that statement

[Highflyer_GP]

Me neither, society is responsible for moral standards. It's not just the "Atheist community" but the entire community.

PS: Congrats dodo on having your own thread, now you don't have to troll in someone else's.

[Mr TB]

First off, what do you mean by the atheist community? I think you are guilty of what Carl Sagan would call: creating a straw man, which he defines as:



See: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=62047 for other common fallacies of logic and rhetoric.


There is no atheist community to which you could attribute this alleged doctrine of "SOCIETY DETERMINE MORAL STANDARDS".

My question is: who else, but society, could possibly determine moral standards in a democracy?

Are every athiest happy that the moral standards Russia developed in a democratic as stated by Nick333?

Are every athiest happy that the moral standards developed by Hitler was done in a democratic society as stated by Nick333.

Are ervery athiest happy that the moral standards set by Napoleon Bonoparte in society was done on a democtric basis?

I would like your comments please...

[Highflyer_GP]

So what you're saying is that you're really against democracy and in favour of a Draconian type society.

PS: "are" is used incorrectly.

[Mr TB]

I do not mind using r in the wrong place lovie.

Even if democracy can be draconian my friend... there are plenty in Africa...

It is fine they are called democracies... prove to me they are not...

[Nick333]

Are every athiest happy that the moral standards Russia developed in a democratic as stated by Nick333?

Are every athiest happy that the moral standards developed by Hitler was done in a democratic society as stated by Nick333.

Are ervery athiest happy that the moral standards set by Napoleon Bonoparte in society was done on a democtric basis?

I would like your comments please...

What's in a name...?

I'm not talking about supposed democracies, I'm talking about actual constitutional democracies, whose constitutions are based on human rights.

[Mr TB]

What's in a name...?

I'm not talking about supposed democracies, I'm talking about actual constitutional democracies, whose constitutions are based on human rights.

do you really know what a constition is mate?... It is only a piece of paper that's all it is...

If the goverment in charge get hold of it and is corrupt it means nothing...

Stop dreaming friend it is a piece of paper it means nothing... and then...

The USA's constitution is biblically build, only now they are mingling with it...

[Nick333]

do you really know what a constition is mate?... It is only a piece of paper that's all it is...

If the goverment in charge get hold of it and is corrupt it means nothing...

Stop dreaming friend it is a piece of paper it means nothing... and then...

When the authority of its constitution is ignored, a country ceases to be a democracy.


The USA's constitution is biblically build, only now they are mingling with it...

The bold sentence is a out right falsehood.

[Leitmotif]

The USA's constitution wasn't biblically built... it starts with "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." - no references to religion of any sort. The constitution of the US states the duties and powers of the government and it's different aspects. It's a legal document, with no reference to the Bible or to religion.

State facts, not suppositions.

[Nanfeishen]

Morals within the society are determined by the society in general, and are centered around how progressive, openminded, religious, educated and ethical the individuals within that society are.
Labelling it an athiest idea or concept makes no sense.

[noxibox]

I think we should just leave the determination of moral standards up to my invisible rabbit. I think she knows best.

If you want to play the more evil than thou game we can dig up plenty of vicious amoral societies based upon religion.

Democracy is not a panacea. It does seem to be the generally lesser of evils though.

[Mr TB]

NOXIBOX you are heading in the right direction. The word is BASED, carefull BASED on religion.

People used the bible for their own selfish purposes, not what god intention was with his word right?

[Mr TB]

Oh yes i had a discussion with a few people, highflyer,they all came to one conclusion, once you pass the furthest point north on earth you are coming south again...

[Claymore]

Oh yes i had a discussion with a few people, highflyer,they all came to one conclusion, once you pass the furthest point north on earth you are coming south again...

Did you know that the eastern-most point in the United States is in Alaska?

[Neo]

Oh yes i had a discussion with a few people, highflyer,they all came to one conclusion, once you pass the furthest point north on earth you are coming south again...

I still completely fail to see how the points where magnetic lines enter the earth have anything to do with these discussions or religion in any way. :confused:

[Mr TB]

I still completely fail to see how the points where magnetic lines enter the earth have anything to do with these discussions or religion in any way. :confused:

Please note i was not the one acting like a lawyer on the comment i made.

Use of a bit of common cense makes it clear why you can walk theoretically in a direction west, or east infinitely.

The same does not hold for walking in a direction north, at a point you will start walking south your arguments or not...

[Neo]

Please note i was not the one acting like a lawyer on the comment i made.

Use of a bit of common cense makes it clear why you can walk theoretically in a direction west, or east infinitely.

The same does not hold for walking in a direction north, at a point you will start walking south your arguments or not...

I understand your reasoning when you describe our common use of the earth's magnetic field to define north, south, east and west.

What I completely fail to understand is its relevance to the topics being discussed here.

[Mr TB]

I understand your reasoning when you describe our common use of the earth's magnetic field to define north, south, east and west.

What I completely fail to understand is its relevance to the topics being discussed here.

if i remember correctly you were the one that gave HF the thumbsup concerning his comment on north south west east in the previous forum therefore supporting his lack of common sense.

the remark therefore was for him to read because if i remember correctly he was viewing the forum at that point in time...

[Mr TB]

I must be honest i do not think that you realise that the bible is scientifically correct taking into account the lack of knowledge and the people's superstitions of that time...

[Mr TB]

Do you know that up in africa people are actually able to call lightning from the air when there is no a cloud in the sky and the sun baking down on you?

[Syndyre]

Do you know that up in africa people are actually able to call lightning from the air when there is no a cloud in the sky and the sun baking down on you?

You really believe that?

[Mr TB]

Did you know that the eastern-most point in the United States is in Alaska?

Example: Everything equal, if i stand on the equator(ewenaar) and start to walk west will i be able to reach that point again by walking west all the time?
We assume that i can overcome the obstacles...

[Claymore]

Example: Everything equal, if i stand on the equator(ewenaar) and start to walk west will i be able to reach that point again by walking west all the time?
We assume that i can overcome the obstacles...

You're still confused between direction and location.

[ToxicBunny]

Up in africa??? WHERE do we live then?

And calling lightning without any clouds in the sky???? please, thats just tripe.. complete and utter

[Mr TB]

Up in africa??? WHERE do we live then?

And calling lightning without any clouds in the sky???? please, thats just tripe.. complete and utter

yes,yes it is possible... but did you also know that there are some of that weird witchcrafters, who with a piece of whool find it possible to walk over a river...

[Mr TB]

Oh yeah i forgot to tell you, that is where they forgot to put a bridge hey..?

[ToxicBunny]

yes they just forget to put bridges in important places....

my mind boggles if you actually honestly and truly believe that tripe
anyway.....

[Nod]

yes,yes it is possible... but did you also know that there are some of that weird witchcrafters, who with a piece of whool find it possible to walk over a river...

So you have seen this with your own eyes? No drugs used at all?

[Nocturnity]

Do you know that up in africa people are actually able to call lightning from the air when there is no a cloud in the sky and the sun baking down on you?

And did you know that all over the world some people actually believe in an invisible man in the sky who watches over you?

[ToxicBunny]

Oh yes, i've heard of that one... Found that story to be very funny... kept me amused for hours....

[Geriatrix]

WTF? What exactly is this thread about?
Can I spew some nonsense as well? :D

Um, did you know that mosquitoes actually try to control the human race with a systematic and well thought out system of controlled sleep deprivation and audio and tactile torture?
:D
Or that that video game companies actually want to create a world full of people with worn out thumbs? Yess, iss truee! Try holding a gun without thumbs!

[ToxicBunny]

Heh.. well it did degenerate into that it seems.. but then we didn't start the nonsense spewing... we just perfected it.. :D

[Mr TB]

You're still confused between direction and location.

You sir are acting like a lawyer, completely stupid, not willing to use a bit of your common sense.

But then again i may be giving you credit for something you don't have...

If we can reason, the bible has been discredited in various forums.
This same bible i believe have been accepted in the universities theology depts in SA but not discarded as rubbish.

You and your friends discard it as rubbish. On that basis the integrity of such institutions concerning their theology dept can not be accepted.

Once the integrity of one dept of an institution is in doubt, the other depts' of such institutions are also doubtful.

Hence the conclusion that any degrees or diplomas given to students by such institutions are doubtful...

[Highflyer_GP]

Oi Dodo are you still taking legal action (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=802198#post802198) for your name being in the thread title? :D ROFL

[Mr TB]

LET US REASON:
This is also one of this godly spots, a false teacher spot actually, but send them an email disagreeing with their viewpoint, you get jumped on !

The same with you and you pals HF GP, the questions i asked you did not answer-you attacked the question that is not reasoning or debating...

[Claymore]

You sir are acting like a lawyer, completely stupid, not willing to use a bit of your common sense.

Lawyers may be a lot of things, but stupid they are not. And common sense is not needed; this is simply an issue of semantics.


If we can reason, the bible has been discredited in various forums.
This same bible i believe have been accepted in the universities theology depts in SA but not discarded as rubbish.

You and your friends discard it as rubbish. On that basis the integrity of such institutions concerning their theology dept can not be accepted.

Once the integrity of one dept of an institution is in doubt, the other depts' of such institutions are also doubtful.

Hence the conclusion that any degrees or diplomas given to students by such institutions are doubtful...

Your logic is flawed. The Bible is accepted in theology departments because that's a major source for their study. Are you prepared to accept the Qu'ran as completely truthful if it's studied in a theology department?

To draw a parallel: university literature departments study Shakespeare's works. Just because they do so does not imply that they are saying that Macbeth is totally non-fictional and truthful.

[Mr TB]

Lawyers may be a lot of things, but stupid they are not. And common sense is not needed; this is simply an issue of semantics.



Your logic is flawed. The Bible is accepted in theology departments because that's a major source for their study. Are you prepared to accept the Qu'ran as completely truthful if it's studied in a theology department?

To draw a parallel: university literature departments study Shakespeare's works. Just because they do so does not imply that they are saying that Macbeth is totally non-fictional and truthful.

There are no claims that the works of Shakespeare are not fictional.
Do they study the Qu'ran or don't they?
I do not know much about it but that they have abraham as father because Ismael (13) was abraham son and hagar abraham's wife...
God promise abraham he will be the father of all nations and god doesn't lie...

I also know that j esus is mentioned as a good prophet, they however reject him as son of god. In the Seventies there were trouble at cinemas when they tried to show the movie "the last temptation of christ". It is blashemy and the muslim community did not stand for it. In their view he was a good prophet.

Lastly the Qu'ran has been written many years after the bible by one person, the bible has been compiled by 40 odd writers over a period of say 1500 yrs.

No, maybe in your view the reasoning is flawed but looking at the evidence provided the answer a definite no...

[ToxicBunny]

Oh, so also all the other theological texts they study must also be accepted, even if they refute core precepts of the bible, simply becase the theology dept of an university uses them?

hmmm so the bible is not the word of god but the word of 40 or so totally unrelated people who just felt like writing some stuff down then?

[Mr TB]

Oh, so also all the other theological texts they study must also be accepted, even if they refute core precepts of the bible, simply becase the theology dept of an university uses them?

hmmm so the bible is not the word of god but the word of 40 or so totally unrelated people who just felt like writing some stuff down then?

Toxic...mmm yeah if you're drugged the above remark make sense...and bunny well the dogs usaully fak them where i come from...so keep it up.

[Highflyer_GP]

...and bunny well the dogs usaully fak them where i come from...
There's no need for personal attacks dude. I could say that brothers also fsck their sisters where you come from.

[ToxicBunny]

Highflyer, it can attack me personally as much as it wants... I'm intrigued as to how it thinks my statements make no sense, i just the logic previously applied by itself and expanded on it.

Of course douwdouw also believes people in africa can call down lightning when there are no clouds or anything in the sky, so whose logic is more open to ummmmmm question?

[Mr TB]

You should not comment on evil spirits sir they may just find you to their liking.

An idiotic remark like the one made by TB deserves a comment. A jew will cut you open because you spat on his history do you realise that punk!

[Mr TB]

the old testament is not just the bible, it is also jewish history and you are to bloody stupid to realise that.

That is why you keep on making stupid remarks...

[Highflyer_GP]

Dodo no offense but you're starting to sprout crap again.

Cut you open for questioning history? Hmm do I detect a hint of intolerance? People of religion can't practice what they preach?

Oh yeah and I challenge any "evil spirit" to possess me tonight :/ Looks like a retarded spirit already possessed you.

[ToxicBunny]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

tbh i think i probably know more about your own religion than you do, and I know the old testament is the "jewish bible".. its not jewish history.... jewish history is things like the Holocaust...

and I know more than a few jews, and they wouldn't cut me open, they actually engage me in intelligent debate on this issue...

and its too late for an evil spirit to possess me... I've already beaten most of them off, they're too pansy for me. I make satan quiver in his lil black boots.

[Mr TB]

Its quite funny how you take everything typed out of context....

He did not question history, he said they write what they like...that is as biased as you can be...

Is that the way you approach investigating history???....i am not an idiot although you and your friends may have that idea!!!!

You know maybe i must go to a Satanist and show him you guys think they are a joke...

[ToxicBunny]

Well show me the proof that they weren't just writing what they felt like writing?... but that wasn't what I was getting at, you spouted some nonsense and again all i did was expand on it logically.

I don't investigate history, it bores the k@k out of me.....

and please tell me where we said satanists are a joke?

[Claymore]

the old testament is not just the bible, it is also jewish history and you are to bloody stupid to realise that.


It's Jewish history as much as Asterix and Obelix is French history.

[ToxicBunny]

I have a feeling this person is hoping to beat us into submission but just spouting nonsense and attacking anything even vaguely intelligent we may utter.... because there hasn't been an intelligent response that I've seen yet from douwdouw....

[Claymore]

There are no claims that the works of Shakespeare are not fictional.

So?


Do they study the Qu'ran or don't they?

I suppose it depends on the institution. I'll ask my father in law, since he is busy with his Masters.


God promise abraham he will be the father of all nations and god doesn't lie...

Hate to tell you this, but I think it's a little late for Abraham.

[Claymore]

I have a feeling this person is hoping to beat us into submission but just spouting nonsense and attacking anything even vaguely intelligent we may utter.... because there hasn't been an intelligent response that I've seen yet from douwdouw....

He's a troll, but I just can't help myself... *sigh*

[ToxicBunny]

Neither can I actually, occupies me a little bit and keeps me entertained.

[Mr TB]

Well show me the proof that they weren't just writing what they felt like writing?... but that wasn't what I was getting at, you spouted some nonsense and again all i did was expand on it logically.

I don't investigate history, it bores the k@k out of me.....

and please tell me where we said satanists are a joke?

Seems like someone is running scered now hehehehe.

Another point there you run for prove again... how sure are you Darwin did not write a lot of ****...were you there when he did his investigations?
So i call that bulldust too ok...

[ToxicBunny]

How am i running scared????

Well I can prove that I wasn't there when he did his investigations. but they have been independantly proven over and over again and used to build upon for the last however long they've been in existance.

Were u there when the bible was written?... cos i somehow doubt it, and by your own admission, if you weren't there, then its bulldust.

[Mr TB]

Your theories that you so like to prove with experiments.

Who says they are right? It can just as well be junk you are indoctrinated with...how will you actually know?

[ToxicBunny]

Ahhh right yes, ok now this is getting interesting... so now experiments prove nothing... intriguing.

I can choose to study the subject, learn the theory and perform my OWN experiment to prove or disprove the theories. Nobody is stopping me from doing so, or telling me I must just "believe" or have "faith"

[Mr TB]

How am i running scared????

Well I can prove that I wasn't there when he did his investigations. but they have been independantly proven over and over again and used to build upon for the last however long they've been in existance.

Were u there when the bible was written?... cos i somehow doubt it, and by your own admission, if you weren't there, then its bulldust.

You have been indoctrinated to believe babyboy... you can't think for yourselves that's why you believe so-called independent heaps of nonsens that is pushed down your throat...

[ToxicBunny]

I can't think for myself?.. so somebody is stopping me from researching the subjects and proving or disproving the theories??? I think not...

Basically what you've just described actually applies more to yourself than to us, I think you need a mirror...

[Mr TB]

i just read a note a person comment god will not force someone to accept him... that make sense then... those who want to be completely free from god will get complete freedom and those who choose him now stay with him.

That is a fair and just god complete freedom to those who rejected him...

[Neo]

Another point there you run for prove again... how sure are you Darwin did not write a lot of ****...were you there when he did his investigations?
So i call that bulldust too ok...

Dodo, you've already admitted that God causes all murders and rapes. Now you seem to agree that all of the bible, both the Old and New Testaments are bulldust, since you could not have been there when the events actually happened.

So far you've admitted the bible is bull and god is the agent behind all murders and rapes. Furthermore you dabble in the occult with all this numerology and summoning up lightning out of the blue.

You must be an atheist!

[Mr TB]

I can't think for myself?.. so somebody is stopping me from researching the subjects and proving or disproving the theories??? I think not...

Basically what you've just described actually applies more to yourself than to us, I think you need a mirror...

You must have looked in the mirror a very long time ago to comment like that.
You most likely also one of this brats that gettoo much pocket money... but when the popo hits the fan you hide behind daddy.

Grow i am tired of your children ****...

[ToxicBunny]

Neo, I was coming to that conclusion myself, in between hosing myself laughing.

Its the one thing i love about "debating" with ppl like this. They always seems to argue themselves in circles, or eventually disprove what they hope to prove in the first place.... anywho

[ToxicBunny]

How does me walking through the VERY large holes in your logic make me a brat with too much pocket money. In fact, I hold down a decent job, and pay for everything myself, so until you leave home and earn a salary please, keep quiet.

[Mr TB]

Dodo, you've already admitted that God causes all murders and rapes. Now you seem to agree that all of the bible, both the Old and New Testaments are bulldust, since you could not have been there when the events actually happened.

So far you've admitted the bible is bull and god is the agent behind all murders and rapes. Furthermore you dabble in the occult with all this numerology and summoning up lightning out of the blue.

You must be an atheist!

You too hey you can twist words and make it look like another person is a big liar.
The company was NOD's, all that written on your face is waterkloof4.

[ToxicBunny]

huh?

please speak in english and constuct sensible sentences. It would aid in us concluding an intelligent debate, although your inate intelligence does seem to limit that possible conclusion from ever being reached.

[Mr TB]

huh?

please speak in english and constuct sensible sentences. It would aid in us concluding an intelligent debate, although your inate intelligence does seem to limit that possible conclusion from ever being reached.

Jy is dan 'n regte domkop wat nie hier hoort nie, net op die boere se geld kom teer.
Ek wil jou eintlik terugskel na jou land van oorsrong van jy het net op die swartman kom teer en hoort nie in afrika nie...

[ToxicBunny]

Ah, hoping to confuse me by speaking "die taal"...

actually in all honesty, I'm bored of this now, you're stupid, ignorant and intolerant... The worst type of religious person out there.

Good luck in converting the masses, may they listen to you and laugh, before making an informed decision based on the small thing called intelligence that you lack

[Neo]

You too hey you can twist words and make it look like another person is a big liar.
The company was NOD's, all that written on your face is waterkloof4.

Another one of those giant intellectual leaps, from your admittance that the bible is bull to waterkloof4.

BTW, I've never twisted your words, merely bouncing them back at you. If you don't like to hear your own words, maybe take more care when posting.

[Mr TB]

Another one of those giant intellectual leaps, from your admittance that the bible is bull to waterkloof4.

BTW, I've never twisted your words, merely bouncing them back at you. If you don't like to hear your own words, maybe take more care when posting.

LIAR

[texo]

(and Dodo comes forward, yet again, to this battle of wits, unarmed...)

[Mr TB]

(and Dodo comes forward, yet again, to this battle of wits, unarmed...)
sleep tight...:)

[Nod]

You too hey you can twist words and make it look like another person is a big liar.
The company was NOD's, all that written on your face is waterkloof4.

Keep me out of this :p Please.

[Mr TB]

Great to see a comment from you again NOD...enjoying life?!

[supersunbird]

Society determines the moral values, not religion or the church. God-fearing southerners kept slaves, god-fearing white south africans practised apartheid. Those acts are and were all immoral, but they choose to ignore it till society changed...

[Mr TB]

Moderator bwana i took note of the warning and do not take exception to it. I was ou of line.

Moderator Bwana the question however is it fine if the forums are misused to quote people out of context?

Moderator Bwana is it fine to pretend controversy in a book when there is no controversy...

Moderator Bwana in doing the person misusing the forum in that way are insulting other users....

Moderator Bwana application of the forum rules should lead to warnings for such persons, otherwise the moderators are not capable...

[Neo]

Society determines the moral values, not religion or the church. God-fearing southerners kept slaves, god-fearing white south africans practised apartheid. Those acts are and were all immoral, but they choose to ignore it till society changed...

Quite, and at any given point in time the bible was used to justify the moral standards of the day. But as the morals changed, God's everlasting and perfect word seem to change with it, to now justify the new thinking.

Apartheid and homosexuality being good examples.

[ToxicBunny]

Exactly..

I know i said I was bored of this, but i slept on it, and i'm not anymore.

I would just like to raise one small little itsy bitsy piece of information, the bible has been translated multiple times and I wouldn't be very surprised at all to see that the current version differs from the original in a large way.

[Syndyre]

Moderator Bwana is it fine to pretend controversy in a book when there is no controversy...
.

Who says there is no controversy? You?

[Neo]

I would just like to raise one small little itsy bitsy piece of information, the bible has been translated multiple times and I wouldn't be very surprised at all to see that the current version differs from the original in a large way.

There are no originals.

In the words of Donald Morgan:

The Bible consists of a collection of sixty-six separate books. These books were chosen, after a bit of haggling, by the Catholic Council of Carthage in 397 A.D.--more than three hundred years after the time of J esus. This collection is broken into two major sections: The Old Testament, which consists of thirty-nine books, and The New Testament, which consists of twenty-seven books. (Catholic Bibles include additional books known as the Apocrypha.)

The Old Testament is concerned with the Hebrew God, Yahweh, and purports to be a history of the early Israelites. The New Testament is the work of early Christians and reflects their beliefs about J esus; it purports to be a history of what J esus taught and did.

The composition of the various books began in about 1000 B.C. and continued for more than a thousand years. Much oral material was included. This was repeated from father to son, revised over and over again, and then put into written form by various editors. These editors often worked in different locales and in different time periods and were often unaware of each other. Their work was primarily intended for local use and it is unlikely that any author foresaw that his work would be included in a "Bible."

No original manuscripts exist. There is probably not one book which survives in anything like its original form. There are hundreds of differences between the oldest manuscripts of any one book. These differences indicate that numerous additions and alterations, some accidental and some purposeful, were made to the originals by various authors, editors, and copyists.

Many biblical authors are unknown. Where an author has been named, that name has sometimes been selected by pious believers rather than given by the author himself. The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are examples of books which did not carry the names of their actual authors. The present names were assigned long after these four books were written. And--in spite of what the Gospel authors say--biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of the Gospel authors was either an actual disciple of J esus or even an eyewitness to his ministry.

Although some books of the Bible are traditionally attributed to a single author, many are actually the work of multiple authors. Genesis and John are two examples of books which reflect multiple authorship.

Many biblical books have the earmarks of fiction. For example, private conversations are often related when no reporter was present. Conversations between God and various individuals are recorded. Prehistoric events are given in great detail. When a story is told by more than one author, there are usually significant differences. Many stories--stories which in their original context are considered even by Christians to be fictional--were borrowed by the biblical authors, adapted for their own purposes, given a historical setting, and then declared to be fact.

The Flood story is an example of this kind of adaptation. Its migration from the earliest known occurrence in Sumeria, around 1600 B.C., from place to place and eventually to the Bible, can be traced historically. Each time the story was used again, it was altered to speak of local gods and heroes.

[Mr TB]

Society determines the moral values, not religion or the church. God-fearing southerners kept slaves, god-fearing white south africans practised apartheid. Those acts are and were all immoral, but they choose to ignore it till society changed...


Let me put it this way...were they god fearing?...or did they use the bible for there own selfish purposes?
It is funny that you can't see the difference...

In America where since the late sixties immorality reigns, society determines the values, you just have to look at their statistics to see what is happening.

Stats is hard evidence. It seems that only those protecting evolution theories are allowed to use hard evidence any other evidence is not accepted by them..

God fearing people make mistakes otherwise mistakes can not accept on the side of people like Voltaire and mass murders like Hitler, Stalin, Amin, etc...

[Syndyre]

I would just like to raise one small little itsy bitsy piece of information, the bible has been translated multiple times and I wouldn't be very surprised at all to see that the current version differs from the original in a large way.

Not to mention when it was edited by committee to remove the contradictions!

[ToxicBunny]

Neo : Yeah, i spose that was what I was getting at, the originals are gone and have been altered so many times that they no longer even carry the original meaning.

douwdouw : no, soceity determines morals. Where u raised by the bible or by your parents? You also take your values from your peer group. Therefore soceity determines morals.

As far as i remember Hitler wasn't a christian or a catholic, although i do stand to be corrected on that matter.

Stats is not hard evidence, stats are always twisted to suit the story people wish to tell.

[Mr TB]

Not to mention when it was edited by committee to remove the contradictions!

any idiot by now should know the bible has been translated. If you thought i did not , sorry man, i did,..

Maybe you did not know this but in the preface they explain precisely how they went about with the translation, so there is no doubt..

They even show the extra verses found in the dead sea scrolls, but they are not added to the text because those scrolls were written after the copies already found, so they are quite honest...

The translators do not try and change its wording...

The fact you can not appreciate translation is because you have not done the necessary study to understand translating ancient versions of a tongue.

[Syndyre]

In America where since the late sixties immorality reigns, society determines the values, you just have to look at their statistics to see what is happening.

Oh please, America is by the far the most religious Western country and most influenced by religion, Christianity specifically. Just look at their president!

[ToxicBunny]

douwdouw : please, think about what you've just said. You have admitted you know the bible has been translated, yet you steadfastly say they haven't chnaged its wording. Please get a grip, EVERY translation will change the wording of the original text, if only because the original language and the translated language do not have similiar words. There is also the very obvious fact that the translation will change the wording to suit current soceity.

Have you done the necessary study to understand the translation of ancient languages?

[Mr TB]

If i do a simulation on a computer i can twist it to suite my purpose. You confirmed that with statistical evidence right so...

I can therefore not believe simulation on a computer because data is needed and then we talk stats.

I appreciate NEO for being so honest concerning stats which can be twisted and therefore twisted to prove evolution via simulation...

[ToxicBunny]

How exactly does a computer fit into this? A computer does not twist data, it manipulates it in exactly the way it has been programmed to.

and since when has anyone said stats were used to prove evolution?

Please stop trying to change the direction of the debate into some FUD that you HOPE will prove your point.

[Mr TB]

Oh please, America is by the far the most religious Western country and most influenced by religion, Christianity specifically. Just look at their president!

you used the right word sir, religious..., being religious does not mean you are a christian...there is a difference...

Pharao also was religious... Most of us are religious but not christians...

[ToxicBunny]

He stated religious and then qualified that by Christianity. America is a christian country, and makes no effort to hide it, or at times to even seperate state and church.

But by your following sentence you are now saying christians are in the minority. Oh well that must mean you accept that more people are getting a clue and either moving to more intelligent religions or becoming atheists.

[Nod]

you used the right word sir, religious..., being religious does not mean you are a christian...there is a difference...

Pharao also was religious... Most of us are religious but not christians...

Actually, some of us are more spiritual than religious. Most people are christians in this country.

[Syndyre]

you used the right word sir, religious..., being religious does not mean you are a christian...there is a difference...

Pharao also was religious... Most of us are religious but not christians...

They certainly claim they're christians, how do you define christianity then if not by its members and those who follow its beliefs?

[ToxicBunny]

Syndyre : I think I'm getting the impression that this person will just claim someone is not Christian if they do something that they disagree with.

[Syndyre]

Thats what I think too, just want to see if they'll admit to it! :D

[Nod]

I have a direct question for douwdouw:
The saviour was supposed to be born from the house of David, right?
Joseph was from the house of David, but he did not impregnate Maria, the holy spirit did that. So by deduction we can conclude that J3sus was not born from the house of David, right? So J3sus can not be the saviour.

If I'm missing something, please correct me.

[ToxicBunny]

Nod : Well this is one of my many, ummmm, issues with the bible.

And I think its a good question. Please douwdouw, I would appreciate a well reasoned answer to that question, as I'm sure many people would.

[Syndyre]

Good question, would definitely appreciate the answer.

[supersunbird]

The answer is they went ding ding without a wedding ring in a time when premarital sex was not on...

[Mr TB]

I have a direct question for douwdouw:
The saviour was supposed to be born from the house of David, right?
Joseph was from the house of David, but he did not impregnate Maria, the holy spirit did that. So by deduction we can conclude that J3sus was not born from the house of David, right? So J3sus can not be the saviour.

If I'm missing something, please correct me.

If you honestly believe god, the most fair judge, whose thoughts are man can not understand will accept your argument...then lay it in front of him.
I do not believe you are right but god may give you credit for a fanrastic mind...

[ToxicBunny]

How exactly does that answer the question?

And he wasn't stating something he believed. He was stating a flow of events that as far as I'm aware is IN the bible. Therefore they are "gods" words are they not?

[Mr TB]

It is intersting to note Matt 1v16 read: Jacob was the father of Joseph, the husband of Maria, Maria mother of J esus the Messiah...

It indeed does not indicate actually that Joseph was the father of J esus...

[ToxicBunny]

Thats actually not interesting, as Nod stated that in his post.

You are still avoiding answering the contradiction that the saviour would come from the house of David, but Joseph did not impregnate Maria, the holy spirit did that.

[Mr TB]

Good question, would definitely appreciate the answer.

when do the people that follow christ come to the fore, well ask the first martyr Stephen who was on his knees being stoned praying for those stoning him...
Did you know that Paul was looking on and it carried away his appreciation...
Asked the martyrs that were thrown for wild animals up to 325 ac
Then Constantine saw christianity as a way to extend his empire.

Ask john huss when he was burned alive by the catholic reign in 13 century
Ask a martyr like jerome...

Ask calvin , ask luther, ask martyrs...
There is the guy in England his name won't come to me now..

Then ask the people i think that was sleeping in there beds in 1793 when the angel of death strike , those christians pulled out of their beds mercilessly killed in the streets of paris babies including, blood flowing ankle deep in the streets of paris... Don't ask me...

France are only one of two countries with a contstitution denying god completely...
Can i give you an honest answer will i stand up in time of persecution, only the spirit of god can give me power, not on my own...

[ToxicBunny]

That sill doesn't answer the question.... but then this is nothing new from you.

We can't ask Stephen cos he's dead, so it paul, and John huss, and Jerome, and Calvin, and luther, and all the martyrs, and all the people you mentioned in 1793.

France's constitution completely denies "god"? Rubbish, it seperates states and church completely I can accept, and I think thats a bloody good thing, but denying god? That sound like more of your useless FUD.

[texo]

You're a raving lunatic. Or, my little brain just can't follow your brilliant logic and reasoning.

Seriously though, Dodo, you believe among many other things that "up in Africa" people can call down lightning from a clear sky, that people can cross rivers with a piece of wool, that you have an invisible friend in the sky who listens to you -- and answers you.

These are not the thoughts of a rational, sane person. Can you offer any evidence for anything at all that you believe? I can offer evidence for EVERYTHING that I believe.

[Mr TB]

Thats actually not interesting, as Nod stated that in his post.

You are still avoiding answering the contradiction that the saviour would come from the house of David, but Joseph did not impregnate Maria, the holy spirit did that.

I actually do not know why you try to dispute the point , you believes or knowings causes the so-called problem... god created everything so we are all related to each other... you are mind create problems where there are none... We are all seed of adam...

[ToxicBunny]

texo : don't bother, our evidence is twisted because a computer played with it and its evil and the devils work now.....

[ToxicBunny]

Well see, no I don't believe that I am from the seed of this so-called Adam. I believe in evolution, which negates "Adam" as being my ancestor in the sense that the bible puts forth. My mind does not create problems, my logic and reasoning notices the HUGE flaws in this religion of yours, that you are totally unable to refute, because you just end up spouting more nonsense.

Xenu is my Home-Boy anyway....

[Mr TB]

Well see, no I don't believe that I am from the seed of this so-called Adam. I believe in evolution, which negates "Adam" as being my ancestor in the sense that the bible puts forth. My mind does not create problems, my logic and reasoning notices the HUGE flaws in this religion of yours, that you are totally unable to refute, because you just end up spouting more nonsense.

Xenu is my Home-Boy anyway....

The only reason i can that guys standing on evelution hangs around in religious chats are because they are not satisfied...

They hunger for god and hope that one of the guys will say something that will change their thinking...

but it works this way if you reject the living god he rejects you, there is no reason big enough for him to go searching after to you...

however if you respond and search after him, he indeed will respond to your calls... the prince of peace died a brutal death on a cross for us...

[Mr TB]

Well see, no I don't believe that I am from the seed of this so-called Adam. I believe in evolution, which negates "Adam" as being my ancestor in the sense that the bible puts forth. My mind does not create problems, my logic and reasoning notices the HUGE flaws in this religion of yours, that you are totally unable to refute, because you just end up spouting more nonsense.

Xenu is my Home-Boy anyway....

LOGIC and REASONING is the biggest flaw in your setup, your spiritman is dead... that is your problem...

[Mr TB]

If you are willing to listen and study the writings of Paul you will find:

Human beings consist of the following:
FLESH-that is your body.
When Adam and Eve sinned the flesh was condemned to return to dust.
Sin separated man's spirit from the spirit of god-SPIRIT
Sin caused the spiritual death of man...
Human kind followed his own will- MIND
In that way i can explain what happened in Eden

[texo]

The only reason i can that guys standing on evelution hangs around in religious chats are because they are not satisfied...

Please don't make assumptions about my interest in this thread. One of the reasons why I cannot ignore your deluded rants is because I wasted far too many years of my life believing in the nonsense you spout.

I am raising my son atheist, and he has learned to question everything. He is a delightfully intelligent and enquiring thirteen-year-old, very sure about his place in our world (as much as a teenager can be :) ) and I am so thankful that he isn't spending some of the best years of his life searching for solace and security in a non-existent deity. He gets all the comfort, support, reassurance and so-on he requires from his family and friends. And he's going to turn into a damn fine young man.

[supersunbird]

The only reason im in religious threads is because some ahole religionists want their stuff to rule my and other peoples life via the constitution, aka gay marraige and what not.

[Neo]

LOGIC and REASONING is the biggest flaw in your setup, your spiritman is dead... that is your problem...

If you lived in a cave wearing an animal skin, I could understand that statement from you.

However, you're posting this on an on-line forum, the existence of which is 100% based on logic and reasoning. I wonder if you even comprehend the amount of (logic and reason-based) science that went into the technologies involved? Or do you think God created your PC out of dust and that these answers coming back at you is a miracle? That at least would be illogical and unreasonable, concepts you seem to endorse.

You're willing to use the tools of logic and reasoning while at the same time attacking it....

I strongly suggest you do go and find a cave and decouple yourself from anything to do with logic and reasoning. Stop using your PC, I'm sure you'll find a burning bush (hosting a 'spiritman') to talk with.

Although, even picking berries in the field implies some kind of logic and reasoning....:confused:

So you're bound to starve.......Hey! Darwin was right!!

[Mr TB]

Please don't make assumptions about my interest in this thread. One of the reasons why I cannot ignore your deluded rants is because I wasted far too many years of my life believing in the nonsense you spout.

I am raising my son atheist, and he has learned to question everything. He is a delightfully intelligent and enquiring thirteen-year-old, very sure about his place in our world (as much as a teenager can be :) ) and I am so thankful that he isn't spending some of the best years of his life searching for solace and security in a non-existent deity. He gets all the comfort, support, reassurance and so-on he requires from his family and friends. And he's going to turn into a damn fine young man.

yes sir your son may turn out a fine young man... that i do not disagree with, he may even be one of the most likable people ever born and reach very great i certainly do not argue that point...

but...but...every single person born on this earth excluding christ were born in sin and are not good enough to enter heaven.
Not a single person excluding christ can say i am good enough for heaven even if he did not commit a single sin...

so sir you are already sending you son to a lake of fire does not matter how much you love him...

[supersunbird]

heaven smeathen, even less prove that that exists...

[Mr TB]

heaven smeathen, even less prove that that exists...

I do not think you can provide any prove that heaven does not not exist and for that matter hell...

[Nod]

so sir you are already sending you son to a lake of fire does not matter how much you love him...

Really? I prefer the Viking way of thinking myself, or even the Terry Pratchet. It's much more believable. Maybe you go where you think you belong, or maybe you just turn to dust, or maybe you end up haunting some graveyard. Heaven and Hell sounds to much like a reward and punishment system so that people can justify their believe in something like religion.

[Claymore]

but...but...every single person born on this earth excluding christ were born in sin and are not good enough to enter heaven.


I thought you didn't like the Catholics, and here you are, spouting forth the doctrine of Original Sin...

[Mr TB]

Many people have written books concerning heaven and hell, being in that places... this books are discarded and i myself do not pay too much attention to them, so i can discard any so-called information older than 6000 years...

[Claymore]

I do not think you can provide any prove that heaven does not not exist and for that matter hell...

He who makes the claim (of heaven existing) must provide the proof.

(Otherwise I can just say: "Heaven did exist, but Odin came along an let all the water out, and destroyed Heaven. Prove me wrong!")

[Neo]

I do not think you can provide any prove that heaven does not not exist and for that matter hell...

Actually, common logic dictates that anyone making a claim, PROVES it. The onus is not on others to DISPROVE it.

So it's up to you to PROVE heaven and hell exists, not for us to disprove it. We can however question your prove until such time as your claim is irrefutable. Then we'll all 'believe' it as it now is a matter of facts.

But then you already indicated you do not believe in logic and reasoning.

[Mr TB]

Really? I prefer the Viking way of thinking myself, or even the Terry Pratchet. It's much more believable. Maybe you go where you think you belong, or maybe you just turn to dust, or maybe you end up haunting some graveyard. Heaven and Hell sounds to much like a reward and punishment system so that people can justify their believe in something like religion.

the only reason you fall short of understanding you wish not to look at at the bible as a whole but piece by piece.

ex. if i take the most most beautiful rose in this world and examine it piece by piece by piece, when i'm finished what's left of the rose?

Of making a comparison is unacceptable for your great understanding...

[Mr TB]

Actually, common logic dictates that anyone making a claim, PROVES it. The onus is not on others to DISPROVE it.

So it's up to you to PROVE heaven and hell exists, not for us to disprove it. We can however question your prove until such time as your claim is irrefutable. Then we'll all 'believe' it as it now is a matter of facts.

But then you already indicated you do not believe in logic and reasoning.

It's just funny how you always run for proof is it not.

There is many things in your theory of evolution that you can't prove so please...

[Mr TB]

If i put the pieces of a watch in the the desert it will not accumulate itself to start ticking.

Evolusionists immediate reaction that proves nothing

That is prove that there is a flaw in your theories...

[Nod]

It's just funny how you always run for proof is it not.

There is many things in your theory of evolution that you can't prove so please...

It's called a theory, because it's not proven yet, otherwise it would be fact. The same with creationism.

[Nod]

If i put the pieces of a watch in the the desert it will not accumulate itself to start ticking.

Evolusionists immediate reaction that proves nothing

That is prove that there is a flaw in your theories...

If you pray to your god, will he proof to us that he created everything? Thought so.

PS. Two pieces of a watch? At least try to use something biological, that has a chance.

[Neo]

It's just funny how you always run for proof is it not.

There is many things in your theory of evolution that you can't prove so please...

It is not my theory (although I support it) and if there are components that are not proven yet, it stays a theory. That is how the scientific process works.

But as a theory, it answers most of the questions and observations, therefore it has a high probability of being correct. But I'm sure it will still be tweaked.

Which specific things, that can't be proven, are you referring to?

But you're right, until something is proven beyond any doubt, it stays a theory. So we agree, heaven and hell are just theories?

[Syndyre]

France are only one of two countries with a contstitution denying god completely...
Can i give you an honest answer will i stand up in time of persecution, only the spirit of god can give me power, not on my own...

How exactly do they deny god completely? There's a difference between separation of church and state, as in the US, and SA too for that matter and denail, although it seems like the distinction is lost on you.

[Syndyre]

If i put the pieces of a watch in the the desert it will not accumulate itself to start ticking.

Evolusionists immediate reaction that proves nothing

That is prove that there is a flaw in your theories...

What is the flaw? Aside from anything else, those are inanimate mechanical objects, only biological objects can "accumulate" and even then it won't happen in most casses, but that doesn't mean it won't happen in some and in some environments, not necessarily the desert.

[Mr TB]

Someone said something about reward and punishment..i quote:

"god does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejectors of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown"

[Neo]

Someone said something about reward and punishment..i quote:

"god does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejectors of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown"

The point being...??

[Mr TB]

What is the flaw? Aside from anything else, those are inanimate mechanical objects, only biological objects can "accumulate" and even then it won't happen in most casses, but that doesn't mean it won't happen in some and in some environments, not necessarily the desert.

How far have you actually stick your nose into this business? Biologists broken everything down that the smallest part i of the engine i was able to see was a gear running on a cambelt.

It is absolutely fantastic, you think that type of thing happen by chance ...

it actually strengthened my believe in a wonderful almighty god!

[Highflyer_GP]

My word, you guys must really have a lot of patience to read so much of his ***** :D

I would be insulting him right about now because of his ignorance and refusal to directly answer any question posed to him. But from past experience it's not worth the effort.

[Mr TB]

You See Sir God Gave Scientists The Oppertunity To Investigate His Mighty Creation, Not The Other Way Round, Not To Deny Him...

[Syndyre]

The point being...??

Who says there has to be a point. :D

[Syndyre]

How far have you actually stick your nose into this business? Biologists broken everything down that the smallest part i of the engine i was able to see was a gear running on a cambelt.

It is absolutely fantastic, you think that type of thing happen by chance ...

it actually strengthened my believe in a wonderful almighty god!

Then why does it contradict the bible? Do you really believe the earth is only 6000 years old?

[Mr TB]

The point being...??

he is certainly not a god of reward and punishment as someone tried to indicate earlier... but i believe that was NOD...

[Mr TB]

Yes someone jumped on me concerning the bible and the jewish history.

Maybe we can try the following Milman-"History of the jews"

[Mr TB]

Read something maybe about the first christians:

"Tertullian, Apology, paragragh 50"

Read more concerning the Romanists and the papal priests...

To understand christianity you can not be one eyed can you...?

[Neo]

You See Sir God Gave Scientists The Oppertunity To Investigate His Mighty Creation, Not The Other Way Round, Not To Deny Him...

How can you decide what God decided?

Please give me proof of this, where is it written?

[Mr TB]

Then why does it contradict the bible? Do you really believe the earth is only 6000 years old?

No i do not believe earth is only 6000 years old.
Creation as described in genesis 1 happened in seven periods and enough info was provided to ancient man to answer their questions.

We have been given the oppertunity via science to explore god's creation...

I know and honestly believe that man was created in the sixth period right by god...

and interesting time was introduced in the 4th period with the sun and moon...

[Neo]

he is certainly not a god of reward and punishment as someone tried to indicate earlier...

Who God?

Let's see:

"Believe in my and you will have everlasting life" (aka reward)

or

"Do not believe in me and you will have eternal damnation" (aka punishment)

Punishing me for my sins, I can still argue, but what is not acceptable at all is when God threatens my children:

"The sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children, up to the 3rd and 4th generations".

Threatening your kids, the ultimate "punishment"......what a loving God. But then he was/is into killing innocent children.

[Mr TB]

I don't try and push my believes down other peoples' throats but i like to them and normally it will lead to arguments because they always want proof.

Someone else find my believes unacceptable without proof...

[Mr TB]

Who God?

Let's see:

"Believe in my and you will have everlasting life" (aka reward)

or

"Do not believe in me and you will have eternal damnation" (aka punishment)

Punishing me for my sins, I can still argue, but what is not acceptable at all is when God threatens my children:

"The sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children, up to the 3rd and 4th generations".

Threatening your kids, the ultimate "punishment"......what a loving God. But then he was/is into killing innocent children.

You are really a funny guy, have you start a petition so that we can get all prisoners released...?

If you have not yet, please do... my signature will be the second on it...

[Mr TB]

How can you decide what God decided?

Please give me proof of this, where is it written?

you do not believe the bible to be true, or that god, so to provide any proof to you is a waste of time is it not?

[Nod]

Which translation of the bible do you (douwdouw) perceive as being the true word of god? And why?

[Mr TB]

Who says there has to be a point. :D

:D :D :D

[Neo]

you do not believe the bible to be true, or that god, so to provide any proof to you is a waste of time is it not?

What a lame opt-out :rolleyes:

Because a character called Neo exists who do not buy into your statements without proof, you do not need to give proof?

You're obviously used to these circular arguments, for example:

"The Bible is the word of God and therefore true. Because the Bible is true and speaks of God, he must exist."

I'll make you a deal. Give me the proof I asked for and you can count me as a convert. Just like Saul, I'll become a Paul.

[Mr TB]

Which translation of the bible do you (douwdouw) perceive as being the true word of god? And why?

I read the bible under guidance of the holy spirit.

When i was at school i had one afrikaans bible. I however was not a great with his at school...but i never ever believed god does not exist...impossible.

Its in the heart you see not in the mind... now i have about 10 ...3 afr. and 7 english.

I read them all trying to grasp what the writer is trying to convey... I read commentaries on bible written by christians for better understanding...

Yes i do many things to ensure that i understand the message of the bible.

[Neo]

You are really a funny guy, have you start a petition so that we can get all prisoners released...?

If you have not yet, please do... my signature will be the second on it...

Am I a funny guy because I keep on showing you how little you know your Bible?

Or am I a funny guy because I don't agree with God killing innocent children?

I'd love to release the prisoners; hundreds of millions of people are kept prisoner by false teachings. They should all be set free. I think all of us here are trying to get you to break out. ;)

Admittedly you'll be a fugitive from the church, but it's not so bad. Some of the perks include freedom of thought.

[Neo]

I read the bible under guidance of the holy spirit.

When i was at school i had one afrikaans bible. I however was not a great with his at school...but i never ever believed god does not exist...impossible.

Its in the heart you see not in the mind... now i have about 10 ...3 afr. and 7 english.

I read them all trying to grasp what the writer is trying to convey... I read commentaries on bible written by christians for better understanding...

Yes i do many things to ensure that i understand the message of the bible.

I'm glad to see you're reading a lot, although I did not realise we have so many interpretations of the bible that you need 10 different copies.

When doing research to strengthen your knowledge, it's always good to read as many different publications on the subject, including opposing ones.

Since you do such a lot to ensure you understand the bible, please read the following two sites and let me know what you think. I've tried to check all the references (it's a lot) but so far have not found any obvious errors.

- http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/intro.html (a very good site with lots of info on many relevant subjects, including Einstein's own words on how he was misquoted.)

- http://www.evilbible.com (Tends to be a bit sensationalist in tone, but the references check out.)

I'd also strongly suggest you read Dawkins' 'The God Delusion'. Very topical at the moment. It's actually quite an easy read.

By reading all these views, together with your reading of the Bible, you can then build up a more complete picture.

Try it.

[Syndyre]

No i do not believe earth is only 6000 years old.
Creation as described in genesis 1 happened in seven periods and enough info was provided to ancient man to answer their questions.

We have been given the oppertunity via science to explore god's creation...

I know and honestly believe that man was created in the sixth period right by god...

and interesting time was introduced in the 4th period with the sun and moon...

So the periods do not correspond to 24 hours or "days" as stated by the bible? Is the bible not wrong then?

[Claymore]

There is many things in your theory of evolution that you can't prove so please...

It's not a question of proof; this, after all, is not geometry. It's a question of *evidence*, and there is plenty for evolution.

[Claymore]

It's called a theory, because it's not proven yet, otherwise it would be fact. The same with creationism.

I beg to differ. It's a theory because it postulates something, has evidence that fits that, and has no evidence that contradicts the theory.

Creationism, by constrast, does not even have evidence.

[Claymore]

How far have you actually stick your nose into this business? Biologists broken everything down that the smallest part i of the engine i was able to see was a gear running on a cambelt.

When last I checked, biologists are not generally experts on internal combustion engines, and I don't know of any that strip down engines as part of their professional duties.

[Mr TB]

Am I a funny guy because I keep on showing you how little you know your Bible?

Or am I a funny guy because I don't agree with God killing innocent children?

I'd love to release the prisoners; hundreds of millions of people are kept prisoner by false teachings. They should all be set free. I think all of us here are trying to get you to break out. ;)

Admittedly you'll be a fugitive from the church, but it's not so bad. Some of the perks include freedom of thought.

no i mean prisoners people like Saddam Hoessein, they are prisoners, people locked up in false teachings can only release themselves...

Oh yes and the bible you "think" you know it. You can recite it front to back, and back to front and still not habe a single clue what the bible says...

[Mr TB]

It's not a question of proof; this, after all, is not geometry. It's a question of *evidence*, and there is plenty for evolution.

the fact that you live is proof that god exist. Once you die you return to dust exactly as the bible says so? that is proof is it not?

The bible says if you die you return to dust, do you return to dust yes!
The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.
There is only a few people older than 100yrs, so the bible is correct.
The bible state the seasons in genesis which is correct.
It states the way man will make his living which is correct.
It states the suffering of a woman when bearing children which is correct.

I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

[Syndyre]

the fact that you live is proof that god exist. Once you die you return to dust exactly as the bible says so? that is proof is it not?

The bible says if you die you return to dust, do you return to dust yes!
The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.
There is only a few people older than 100yrs, so the bible is correct.
The bible state the seasons in genesis which is correct.
It states the way man will make his living which is correct.
It states the suffering of a woman when bearing children which is correct.

I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

No its not proof. I could observe the world and come to those same conclusions pretty quickly, then write a book and include those along with the "fact" that I am immortal and everyone should bow down to me and build me a giant throne. :D

By your logic then I would be correct.

[Mr TB]

Darwin's Black Box written by Michael J Behe had the evolusionists scattering.

The book is noted as one of the 100 most important books written in the 20th century.

DARWIN is being re-crucified 116 yrs after his death/ J esus is being re-crucified year after year for 2000 yrs already...

[Syndyre]

Noted by who? Evolution is still widely accepted by most people in the field.

[Mr TB]

No its not proof. I could observe the world and come to those same conclusions pretty quickly, then write a book and include those along with the "fact" that I am immortal and everyone should bow down to me and build me a giant throne. :D

By your logic then I would be correct.

With the technology available to you maybe, but you can't that with you back then...

You have to rely on that ancient way of thinking and by no stretch of the mind you will ever get to conclusion like the above.

Don't take modern technology and methods into the ancient world....

[Neo]

Oh yes and the bible you "think" you know it. You can recite it front to back, and back to front and still not habe a single clue what the bible says...

I've heard of these "Secret Codes" in the bible!, where you cannot read the bible in a literal way but rather with some special 'code', but have never met anyone who knows these secret codes!.

I even read Michael Drosnin's "The Bible Code", but found it a bit of an anticlimax...:mad:

You're right, I have read the bible extensively but could never pick up how to do this. How does it work?

[Mr TB]

Noted by who? Evolution is still widely accepted by most people in the field.

Do a bit of surfing...like me...

[Syndyre]

With the technology available to you maybe, but you can't that with you back then...

You have to rely on that ancient way of thinking and by no stretch of the mind you will ever get to conclusion like the above.

Don't take modern technology and methods into the ancient world....

I assume you mean these conclusions:



the fact that you live is proof that god exist. Once you die you return to dust exactly as the bible says so? that is proof is it not?

The bible says if you die you return to dust, do you return to dust yes!
The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.
There is only a few people older than 100yrs, so the bible is correct.
The bible state the seasons in genesis which is correct.
It states the way man will make his living which is correct.
It states the suffering of a woman when bearing children which is correct.

I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

Not hard to discover decomposition or "returning to dust" without modern technology.

Or to calculate age.

Or to experience the seasons.

Not sure what you mean about how people make a living but it'd presumably be clearly observable.

I'm sure the pain women go through during childbirth would be fairly well known too!

[Mr TB]

I've heard of these "Secret Codes" in the bible!, where you cannot read the bible in a literal way but rather with some special 'code', but have never met anyone who knows these secret codes!.

I even read Michael Drosnin's "The Bible Code", but found it a bit of an anticlimax...:mad:

You're right, I have read the bible extensively but could never pick up how to do this. How does it work?

You need to ask the holy spirit to guide you... that's the correct way...

[Syndyre]

Do a bit of surfing...like me...

Ok...Wikipedia's always a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin's_Black_Box



Though influential within the intelligent design movement for several years, the book has lost some of its currency as more and more examples given by Behe as evidence of irreducible complexity have been shown to be explicable by known evolutionary mechanisms, something Behe conceded under cross examination while testifying as an expert witness on behalf of the defendants in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.




Darwin's Black Box was not well received by the scientific community, who overwhelming rejected Behe's premise and failed to adopt his methods.




The general reader will not know the limitations of his argument, or be aware of his misrepresentations of the facts, and will easily be seduced by his arguments. After all, it seems so very much easier, and certainly avoids a lot of intellectual effort, to accept that God did it all, even though we have to interpret the carefully coded allusions to this incompetent figment of impoverished imaginations.




In 2005, while testifying for the defense in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial, Michael Behe claimed under oath that Darwin's Black Box received even more thorough peer review than a scholarly article in a refereed journal.[6]

Behe's testimony has resulted in controversy as it appears to be in direct conflict with known facts about the book's peer review. Four of the book's five reviewers — Michael Atchison, Robert Shapiro, K. John Morrow, and Russell Doolittle — made statements that contradict or otherwise do not support Behe's claim of Darwin's Black Box having passed a rigorous peer review process.

Atchison has stated that he did not review the book at all, but spent 10 minutes on the phone receiving a brief overview of the book which he then endorsed without ever seeing the text.[7] Robert Shapiro has said that he did review the book, and while he agreed with some of his analysis of origin-of-life research, he thinks Behe's conclusions are false. He did, however, say that he thought that Behe's book was the best explanation of the argument from design that was available.[8] K. John Morrow panned the book as appalling and unsupported, which contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[9] And Dr. Russell Doolittle, whose own work on blood clotting Behe based much of the arguments in Darwin's Black Box on reviewed the book and described it as misrepresenting many important points and disingenuous, which also contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[10]

[Highflyer_GP]

Dodo you're embarrassing yourself by blindly defending a fairytale against intellectuals who put a whole lot of thought into their belief systems.

Rest assured that most non-religious people were brought up in religious homes, so they know about all the crap that you're talking about. By contrast have you ever given thought to the possibility of you being wrong? Have you ever tried researching how evidence fits theory? Have you ever tried being Atheist/Agnostic? Thought so...until you do I think it's about time you stopped preaching this stuff as if it's been proven beyond doubt.

PS: Darwin was very religious in his early days before postulating evolution based on natural selection. Attacking him for thinking outside the box is just the sort of retarded mentality that your ilk is famed for.

[Mr TB]

I'm glad to see you're reading a lot, although I did not realise we have so many interpretations of the bible that you need 10 different copies.

When doing research to strengthen your knowledge, it's always good to read as many different publications on the subject, including opposing ones.

Since you do such a lot to ensure you understand the bible, please read the following two sites and let me know what you think. I've tried to check all the references (it's a lot) but so far have not found any obvious errors.

- http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/intro.html (a very good site with lots of info on many relevant subjects, including Einstein's own words on how he was misquoted.)

- http://www.evilbible.com (Tends to be a bit sensationalist in tone, but the references check out.)

I'd also strongly suggest you read Dawkins' 'The God Delusion'. Very topical at the moment. It's actually quite an easy read.

By reading all these views, together with your reading of the Bible, you can then build up a more complete picture.

Try it.

I have indeed picked up these websites on the internet, as i said to i ask the holy spirit to lead and guide, and i immediately realise here god is turned into a weird person who hates mankind and i witdraw...

The bible have instructions allow sin into your house and you will have to fight it on your own...

The same with Dawkins book- it is typical mankind to draw a person into a situation and then exposing him...

Dawkins is just as cruel as a murderer in my view. He misused a person's shortcoming to exalt himself...

It was not really about the person but Dawkins little selfish ego...

I have no respect for him...

[Syndyre]

Why is he as cruel as a murderer, because you disagree with him? What person's shortcoming did he use?

[Neo]

The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.

I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

But the bible is full of people who are older than 120 years, right from Adam (700 years, I think) ??? Methuselah nearly hit the 1000 year mark!

So again you're using the bible to contradict the bible itself :rolleyes:

All your other points are normal phenomena anyone can observe (and did from the beginning of time), no technology involved to see someone decompose, etc.

[Highflyer_GP]

The same with Dawkins book- it is typical mankind to draw a person into a situation and then exposing him...

Dawkins is just as cruel as a murderer in my view. He misused a person's shortcoming to exalt himself...

It was not really about the person but Dawkins little selfish ego...

I have no respect for him...
Please dude, you're just cheesed off because he exposes religion for what it is. If you have a problem with theory fitting the evidence, I suggest you find a cave to dwell in and stop leeching off scientific progress.

[Mr TB]

Dodo you're embarrassing yourself by blindly defending a fairytale against intellectuals who put a whole lot of thought into their belief systems.

Rest assured that most non-religious people were brought up in religious homes, so they know about all the crap that you're talking about. By contrast have you ever given thought to the possibility of you being wrong? Have you ever tried researching how evidence fits theory? Have you ever tried being Atheist/Agnostic? Thought so...until you do I think it's about time you stopped preaching this stuff as if it's been proven beyond doubt.

PS: Darwin was very religious in his early days before postulating evolution based on natural selection. Attacking him for thinking outside the box is just the sort of retarded mentality that your ilk is famed for.

Where on earth do you get the idea that i am defending the bible? That is an assumption made by you?!

I do not need to defend it , i know the bible is true so?...anything else no defending to do right?

Please do not make stupid assumptions...

[Neo]

I have indeed picked up these websites on the internet, as i said to i ask the holy spirit to lead and guide, and i immediately realise here god is turned into a weird person who hates mankind and i witdraw....

I challenge you to disprove the statements made on these two websites. Every single line on both these sites are supported by direct quotations from YOUR bible. Nothing else.

How can you not read a website that only quotes the bible you know so well?

Please tell us what is wrong with these sites?

[Syndyre]

Where on earth do you get the idea that i am defending the bible? That is an assumption made by you?!

I do not need to defend it , i know the bible is true so?...anything else no defending to do right?

Please do not make stupid assumptions...

How can you *know* it is true without evidence?

[Mr TB]

Please dude, you're just cheesed off because he exposes religion for what it is. If you have a problem with theory fitting the evidence, I suggest you find a cave to dwell in and stop leeching off scientific progress.

Why are you getting personal.. because i exposed for what he really is?.. and in so doing trying to use religion to his advantage...

[Highflyer_GP]

Where on earth do you get the idea that i am defending the bible? That is an assumption made by you?!



Oh yes and the bible you "think" you know it. You can recite it front to back, and back to front and still not habe a single clue what the bible says...

the fact that you live is proof that god exist. Once you die you return to dust exactly as the bible says so? that is proof is it not?

The bible says if you die you return to dust, do you return to dust yes!
The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.
There is only a few people older than 100yrs, so the bible is correct.
The bible state the seasons in genesis which is correct.
It states the way man will make his living which is correct.
It states the suffering of a woman when bearing children which is correct.

I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

You need to ask the holy spirit to guide you... that's the correct way...
Should I go on? That's just from this page alone.

You're making an idiot of yourself by contradicting your own posts.

[Neo]

Why are you getting personal.. because i exposed for what he really is?.. and in so doing trying to use religion to his advantage...

Have you read 'The God Delusion'?

Yes or no?

[Mr TB]

How can you *know* it is true without evidence?

There is plenty of evidence sir, you just don't want to know it and will believe anything but the evidence...

Archeology have find more than enough of the places that was descibed in the bible...

But that is not the point i know it in my heart.

I don't need evidence....

[Captain Beer]

I think douwdouw needs to read a copy of Loslyf :D

[Mr TB]

Have you read 'The God Delusion'?

Yes or no?
How much do you really want to know?....Did you read galatians?
Do you understand that that Paul is not contradicting J esus.
Do you understand that the old covenant still hold but what the difference is?

No sir you do not understand any of these things so i do not owe you an answer to your question...

[Highflyer_GP]

There is plenty of evidence sir, you just don't want to know it and will believe anything but the evidence...

Archeology have find more than enough of the places that was descibed in the bible...
That has to be the dumbest argument ever. If you describe a place in a book, that means the entire book is true? Perhaps I should start a religion and in my scripture describe a few countries since that would make my new-found religion true


But that is not the point i know it in my heart.

I don't need evidence....
That explains why your thought process is clouded - most people use their hearts to pump blood. But you're superhuman, your heart is capable of knowledge.

[Syndyre]

There is plenty of evidence sir, you just don't want to know it and will believe anything but the evidence...

Archeology have find more than enough of the places that was descibed in the bible...

But that is not the point i know it in my heart.

I don't need evidence....

I will most certainly believe real evidence, I just haven't been presented with any yet. I'm not denying that a lot of the places mentioned in the bible existed etc. I'm just saying that doesn't prove that the rest of the bible is true.

[Highflyer_GP]

I think douwdouw needs to read a copy of Loslyf :D
Nah he needs a copy of kryn***kenlyf :p

[Mr TB]

But the bible is full of people who are older than 120 years, right from Adam (700 years, I think) ??? Methuselah nearly hit the 1000 year mark!

So again you're using the bible to contradict the bible itself :rolleyes:

All your other points are normal phenomena anyone can observe (and did from the beginning of time), no technology involved to see someone decompose, etc.

When did god make a decision that man will not grow older than 120 yrs?
Did you know that "Adam" told "Noah" exactly what happened in Eden just for interest sake...

[Neo]

I think douwdouw needs to read a copy of Loslyf :DAnd Hustler in a 7:3 ratio!

Doudouw, you seem to think we're saying nothing in the bible is true and therefore if you can prove a single event, it makes the bible true.

Refer to my previous summary on the history of the OT. It's obvious that many real events, places and even people are described in the OT and no one disputes this.

But you can't use the fact that a city mentioned is excavated to now believe the whole book.

We do dispute many statements and events including the concept that it is the perfect word of God.

If you're really interested in ORIGINAL and very ancient texts, you should read the many, many Sumerian texts we have available. These predate the bible by thousands of years.

[Mr TB]

And Hustler in a 7:3 ratio!

Doudouw, you seem to think we're saying nothing in the bible is true and therefore if you can prove a single event, it makes the bible true.

Refer to my previous summary on the history of the OT. It's obvious that many real events, places and even people are described in the OT and no one disputes this.

But you can't use the fact that a city mentioned is excavated to now believe the whole book.

We do dispute many statements and events including the concept that it is the perfect word of God.

If you're really interested in ORIGINAL and very ancient texts, you should read the many, many Sumerian texts we have available. These predate the bible by thousands of years.

You don't have to believe it , that indeed is your own decision, i believe and you with all your crap evidence that you pretend to have wiil certainly not change that. You can someone who thinks he knows everything nothing in anycase...

[Neo]

How much do you really want to know?....Did you read galatians?

Yes, I have. Otherwise I would not be so bold to discuss it. Have you read it?

Have you read Dawkins? Yes or no?


Do you understand that that Paul is not contradicting J esus.

He is. Shall I (again) give you the quotations?


Do you understand that the old covenant still hold but what the difference is?

No, what is the difference? If it still holds we need to obey it and do as God commands, including killing gays.


No sir you do not understand any of these things so i do not owe you an answer to your question...
What a flimsy excuse to not answer a direct question. In other words you've not read it. Why not just say it outright?

[Neo]

When did god make a decision that man will not grow older than 120 yrs?
Did you know that "Adam" told "Noah" exactly what happened in Eden just for interest sake...

No, I did not know this. Won't you please give me the references, on both these?

[Claymore]

the fact that you live is proof that god exist. Once you die you return to dust exactly as the bible says so? that is proof is it not?

People return to dust? Really? Even in the water, or damp soil?


The bible says we will not live longer that 120 yrs.

If so, the Bible is thus incorrect, since IIRC the oldest verified age was a woman who died at 124 recently.


I think if we really do an in depth analysis we will find the bible quite accurate

I think that if you analyse Wilbur Smith's bestselling novels, you will find many things in them that are accurate. This would thus make them non-fiction, yes?

[Claymore]

Darwin's Black Box written by Michael J Behe had the evolusionists scattering.


Actually, I think it had the scientific community in hysterical laughter.

[Claymore]

Do a bit of surfing...like me...

Actually, I think that if you *had* done a little surfing, you would have found that evolution by natural selection is overwhelmingly supported in the scientific community, probably by well over 99% of the people in the field.

[Syndyre]

Are there an eaglespread of your mom in loslyf?
No wonder nobody is interested...

That's not very Christian. :D :D :D

[Syndyre]

People return to dust? Really? Even in the water, or damp soil?

LOL :D

[Mr TB]

No, I did not know this. Won't you please give me the references, on both these?

If you were created by god and your great-great-grandson was around you will certainly tell him you saw god face to face, I don't see Adam not telling NOAH.

please read galatians again because you do not understand Paul.
See if you can get hold of the book written by William Barkley on galatians and ephesians...Surf for it and see if you can get hold of it... enjoy a verse by verse explanation of what Paul is telling the galatians.

I myself did not really get hold of galatians, then i sat with six video tapes verse by verse explanation of galatians. It cleared up galatians for me...

One day in a shop i buy this book on galatians written in +-1920...
what a shock verse by verse basically the same than the videotapes, confirmation-2 witnessess you see...

[NewsFlash]

Actually, I think that if you *had* done a little surfing, you would have found that evolution by natural selection is overwhelmingly supported in the scientific community, probably by well over 99% of the people in the field.

Evolution is ongoing, even today, but only in Africa

[Mr TB]

They can support evolution I do not.

[Neo]

If you were created by god and your great-great-grandson was around you will certainly tell him you saw god face to face, I don't see Adam not telling NOAH.
So you're assuming they were contemporary? You don't really know?

And the 120 year comment? What is your source for that? Another assumption?

[NewsFlash]

They can support evolution I do not.

Let them believe they are the offspring of ape's, then again maybe they are, I know I am not.

[Highflyer_GP]

Pupa (NewsFlash) you're not an offspring of an ape, you are an ape!

[NewsFlash]

Pupa (NewsFlash) you're not an offspring of an ape, you are an ape!

As you please. I take it where it comes from. Please yourself old fool.

[Nick333]

They can support evolution I do not.

Evolution doesn't require your support, just like gravity doesn't require your support.
God on the other hand does. Since god is nothing but an idea in your and a bunch of other deluded...erm...individuals heads, it would cease to exist as soon as you stopped clinging to it. When the human race is gone species will continue to evolve because evolution is a natural law, but god will cease to exist because the minds in which it exists as an idea will no longer exist. In fact the unique concept of god that exists only in your own mind will cease to be when you die.
Natural laws are not conscious entities, they could care less if you support them or not.
If the god disease is allowed to thrive and spread, as is your desire, there is a very real chance that the human species will kill itself off, out of ignorance and religious barbarism, before its time. And all our quaint little concepts like the tooth fairy and alien abductions and god will die with us. Natural laws like gravity and evolution will be here as long as there is a universe.

[Nick333]

As you please. I take it where it comes from. Please yourself old fool.

I thought Highflyer was like 25 or something?

[Nick333]

Let them believe they are the offspring of ape's, then again maybe they are, I know I am not.

It doesn't matter what you know, you are what you are.

[Mr TB]

As you please. I take it where it comes from. Please yourself old fool.

Oh the pain!, when they actually realise they are offspring off monkeys and apes...shame...:p

[Mr TB]

I thought Highflyer was like 25 or something?

No apparently he is offspring of an ape...:)

[Neo]

So you're assuming they were contemporary? You don't really know?

And the 120 year comment? What is your source for that? Another assumption?

bump@dodo

[Highflyer_GP]

I thought Highflyer was like 25 or something?

Pupa can be fun - he tries trolling but when you troll back at his replies then you can rest assured it'll tick him off :D

[Mr TB]

Evolution doesn't require your support, just like gravity doesn't require your support.
God on the other hand does. Since god is nothing but an idea in your and a bunch of other deluded...erm...individuals heads, it would cease to exist as soon as you stopped clinging to it. When the human race is gone species will continue to evolve because evolution is a natural law, but god will cease to exist because the minds in which it exists as an idea will no longer exist. In fact the unique concept of god that exists only in your own mind will cease to be when you die.
Natural laws are not conscious entities, they could care less if you support them or not.
If the god disease is allowed to thrive and spread, as is your desire, there is a very real chance that the human species will kill itself off, out of ignorance and religious barbarism, before its time. And all our quaint little concepts like the tooth fairy and alien abductions and god will die with us. Natural laws like gravity and evolution will be here as long as there is a universe.

Your argument is flawed, if god needed any one of us support there wuold be good reason for him to proof himself...

We are in need of him so he need not proof anything...see the flaw in your reasoning?

[Highflyer_GP]

No apparently he is offspring of an ape...:)
I'd sooner be an ape than live on the east rand :rolleyes: Apes don't practice incest

*NB: No offense to anybody on the east rand, referring specifically to the Mongols (dodo and Pupa).

[Neo]

Ape's don't practice incest

You'd be surprised what they get up to, they pretty much shag anything :D But that's for another thread....;)

[NewsFlash]

I'd sooner be an ape than live on the east rand :rolleyes: Apes don't practice incest

I do not know your pupa, seems to me he was a real influence in your life, or thorn in your thumb, as you refer to him a lot. Anyway who seems to be ticked off here?

[Mr TB]

This is why i also believe the bible to be true, the thing on incest that is eating HF _ GP. If the bible was not written in truth you would not find history like that in it, it will be a "clean" book.

The mistakes of people is written not hidden, nothing to make it suspect...

[Highflyer_GP]

You'd be surprised what they get up to, they pretty much shag anything :D But that's for another thread....;)

LOL then I guess they don't differ all that much to the likes of dodo :D

[Nick333]

No apparently he is offspring of an ape...:)

I'm sure you will find he is the decendent of an ape like species that existed millions of years ago just as you and I are.

Your trivialisation of evolutionary theory not only highlights your complete ignorance of the subject, it also shows your deep antagonism towards it. An antagonism born of the insecurity you feel about your nonsensical beliefs no doubt.
Whatever else you are, you are an evolutionary cul-de-sac, you have nothing to offer our species in terms of contributing to knowledge.
Your ten versions of the bible on which you base every concept ever to have popped into your bank vault like mind have nothing to offer any but those members of our species who more closely resemble our ape like, distant relatives.

[Nod]

LOL then I guess they don't differ all that much to the likes of dodo :D

No, no, the dodo is extinct. I think *looks over at dodo* :p

[Highflyer_GP]

This is why i also believe the bible to be true, the thing on incest that is eating HF _ GP. If the bible was not written in truth you would not find history like that in it, it will be a "clean" book.

The mistakes of people is written not hidden, nothing to make it suspect...
Are you saying that the bible is against incest?

The offspring of Adam and Eve would have had to have had incestuous relationships in order for the population of the world to grow.

Sorry dude, you can call yourself a retard but leave me out of it.

[Nick333]

Your argument is flawed, if god needed any one of us support there wuold be good reason for him to proof himself...

We are in need of him so he need not proof anything...see the flaw in your reasoning?

Rofl lol bwahahahahahaha. Evidently you don't see the one in yours through which you could comfortably drive a pantechnicon.

[Mr TB]

I'm sure you will find he is the decendent of an ape like species that existed millions of years ago just as you and I are.

Your trivialisation of evolutionary theory not only highlights your complete ignorance of the subject, it also shows your deep antagonism towards it. An antagonism born of the insecurity you feel about your nonsensical beliefs no doubt.
Whatever else you are, you are an evolutionary cul-de-sac, you have nothing to offer our species in terms of contributing to knowledge.
Your ten versions of the bible on which you base every concept ever to have popped into your bank vault like mind have nothing to offer any but those members of our species who more closely resemble our ape like, distant relatives.

so you admit then that you are offspring of ape?

[Highflyer_GP]

I'm sure you will find he is the decendent of an ape like species that existed millions of years ago just as you and I are.

Your trivialisation of evolutionary theory not only highlights your complete ignorance of the subject, it also shows your deep antagonism towards it. An antagonism born of the insecurity you feel about your nonsensical beliefs no doubt.

His ilk obviously have no clue about the difference between an ape and homo-erectus. They try to deny being classed as a primate, despite the fact that over 90% of our DNA is also common to chimpanzees.

Then again their bible tells them that all animals are here to serve humans, so I don't really know which of the two is more arrogant, ignorant and thick-headed.

[NewsFlash]

, you have nothing to offer our species in terms of contributing to knowledge.
Your ten versions of the bible on which you base every concept ever to have popped into your bank vault like mind have nothing to offer any but those members of our species who more closely resemble our ape like, distant relatives.
Are you referring to the population in Africa by any chance or what are you on about. Sounds a lot like Christian bashing to me, but then we have to take it where it comes from. There must be a direct evolutionary link to the "ape like, distant relatives" you are referring to, at least where your intelligence is concerned.

[Mr TB]

Rofl lol bwahahahahahaha. Evidently you don't see the one in yours through which you could comfortably drive a pantechnicon.

The a and h on your keyboard are stuck:)

[Highflyer_GP]

The a and h on your keyboard are stuck:)
Maybe he's intentionally using AH as an acronym when referring to you.

[Mr TB]

Are you referring to the population in Africa by any chance or what are you on about. Sounds a lot like Christian bashing to me, but then we have to take it where it comes from. There must be a direct evolutionary link to the "ape like, distant relatives" you are referring to, at least where your intelligence is concerned.

mmm...please explain NICK333, racism and bashing the religion of another person I think is forbidden in our constitution is that correct?

[Nick333]

so you admit then that you are offspring of ape?

No dodo. Quite clearly I do not. Offspring means children. In other words for you to be the offspring of an ape would mean that your parents were apes.
To be descended from an ape would mean that you are the result of thousands of generations of ape like creatures with the occasional but profound mutations required to create distinct new species along the way.

Anyway you will undoubtedly ignore what I have just said and choose to believe that I just agreed with your previous post because that is what children and people with childlike mentalities do, because they think they are clever. So I will bow out now and leave you and your blissfully and willfully ignorant friends to have a good chuckle about it, while you give each other pats on the back for being the stupidest troglodyte.

[Mr TB]

His ilk obviously have no clue about the difference between an ape and homo-erectus. They try to deny being classed as a primate, despite the fact that over 90% of our DNA is also common to chimpanzees.

Then again their bible tells them that all animals are here to serve humans, so I don't really know which of the two is more arrogant, ignorant and thick-headed.
where in the bible is written that all animals are here to serve human beings?

it seems like a verse taken out of context, please quote...

[Syndyre]

Are you referring to the population in Africa by any chance or what are you on about. .

I think he was just referring to ignorant people generally, although you've inadvertently made it clear where your prejudices lie.

[Highflyer_GP]

where in the bible is written that all animals are here to serve human beings?

it seems like a verse taken out of context, please quote...
FFS do a forum search, this has been quoted time and again in the various other threads.

Off course when you do find it, your rebuttal will be "taken out of context".

[Mr TB]

This people is just plain ignorant, where did i deny 90% of our DNA is also common in chimps...where?.. where?

God ceated the the animals and god created man in his own image.

How can they be so ignorant, i do not accept their theory of evelution.

full stop...no further argument.

[Mr TB]

--snip--

You are getting quite pesonal are you not?
Maybe moderator bwana should have a look into this?

[Neo]

where in the bible is written that all animals are here to serve human beings?

it seems like a verse taken out of context, please quote...

Go and open anyone of your 10 bibles on the first page.....

And behold thou shall read the word of God and the word of God said:

26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

From Webster:

Main Entry: do·min·ion
Pronunciation: d&-'mi-ny&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English dominioun, from Middle French dominion, modification of Latin dominium, from dominus
1 : DOMAIN
2 : supreme authority : SOVEREIGNTY
3 plural : an order of angels -- see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY
4 often capitalized : a self-governing nation of the Commonwealth of Nations other than the United Kingdom that acknowledges the British monarch as chief of state
5 : absolute ownership

[NewsFlash]

You are getting quite pesonal are you not?
Maybe moderator bwana should have a look into this?

I hope he also looks at the christian bashing and name references too.

[NewsFlash]

Go and open anyone of your 10 bibles on the first page.....

And behold thou shall read the word of God and the word of God said:

26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."
27 God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth."

From Webster:

Main Entry: do·min·ion
Pronunciation: d&-'mi-ny&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English dominioun, from Middle French dominion, modification of Latin dominium, from dominus
1 : DOMAIN
2 : supreme authority : SOVEREIGNTY
3 plural : an order of angels -- see CELESTIAL HIERARCHY
4 often capitalized : a self-governing nation of the Commonwealth of Nations other than the United Kingdom that acknowledges the British monarch as chief of state
5 : absolute ownership

So if the human was given ownership of all "animals" did that exclude the ape or chimp or was it then not an animal then. :confused:

[Neo]

This people is just plain ignorant, where did i deny 90% of our DNA is also common in chimps...where?.. where?

God ceated the the animals and god created man in his own image.

How can they be so ignorant, i do not accept their theory of evelution.

full stop...no further argument.

So if you agree that we have common DNA then you're saying God created chimps in his own image as well?

[NewsFlash]

So if you agree that we have common DNA then you're saying God created chimps in his own image as well?

There is DNA in humans that is not in an chimp. Therefore the difference!

[ToxicBunny]

My gawd ppl.. I leave for an afternoon and I could write an essay in response to all the nonsense that has been spouted here...

Newsflash, actually "bashing" a religion is not "illegal" in our constitution, but racism very definately is, so be careful what you say and how you say it, and please think about what you're saying.

Douwdouw : so you'll accept the concept of DNA, which is further evidence for the theory of evolution, but you still steadfastly refuse to even contemplate that the theory of evolution is even possible?

[Highflyer_GP]

So if the human was given ownership of all "animals" did that exclude the ape or chimp or was it then not an animal then. :confused:
You're a Christian, you should know the answer to that. Why the confusion?

[Neo]

So if the human was given ownership of all "animals" did that exclude the ape or chimp or was it then not an animal then. :confused:

I've got no idea...:confused: ask Dodo, he's the authority.

Although, by his own admittance, if you were not present you cannot believe anything and I seriously doubt that he was around when the animals were created. It's more than 120 years ago....

[ToxicBunny]

Newsflash : it is all of about 2% different, which yes gives us the different species, but is evidence that we are very closely "related" and share a common ancestor.

[NewsFlash]

You're a Christian, you should know the answer to that. Why the confusion?

Says who?

[NewsFlash]

Newsflash : it is all of about 2% different, which yes gives us the different species, but is evidence that we are very closely "related" and share a common ancestor.

In Darwin's eyes and his followers. Yes!

[ToxicBunny]

So then what is the point of DNA if not to program in the small changes that evolution slowly bring about in species?

[Highflyer_GP]

You're a Christian, you should know the answer to that. Why the confusion?Says who?

Sounds a lot like Christian bashing to me, but then we have to take it where it comes from.
.

[NewsFlash]

.

So if that makes me a Christian I feel good. Thanks for noticing.

Edit: so why did you edit your post so suddenly, some parts is now missing!

[Highflyer_GP]

Says who?


So if that makes me a Christian I feel good. Thanks for noticing.
Congrats you just made an idiot of yourself.


Edit: so why did you edit your post so suddenly, some parts is now missing!
I added my post to eradicate any confusion.

[kilo39]

So if that makes me a Christian I feel good. Thanks for noticing.


So killing a rat also stinks and killing insects make you quiver. I hail and cheer the death of any scum on earth that have no pity or remorse for the human deaths he caused and man he's slain himself! Wish I was there to laugh in his face as life faded and death came onto him. I would have spaat in his face at the same time! They should restore the death penalty in South Africa with the difference of allowing public executions. I will be there to help doing so.

'nuff said.

:sick:

[NewsFlash]

Congrats you just made an idiot of yourself.

I added my post to eradicate any confusion.

I think only you are confused! Checked the mirror lately?

[NewsFlash]

'nuff said.

:sick:

Typical out of context rhetoric's so common to all your posts!

[ToxicBunny]

Well Newsflash, would you care to put a link in to that thread, or the rest of your post to put it into context then.

[kilo39]

Typical out of context rhetoric's so common to all your posts!LOL

People like you give Christianity a bad name.