Satanism Is Good For You :) [Archive] - Page 2

nocilah

11-01-2007, 09:54 PM

Did you see the money personally? Because i saw guys walking around holding crutches in the air and if i am not wrong some wheelchairs too.

You should be very careful in saying satan rules the church... in effect you are saying christ is satan, that is blashemy... be careful. If HINN indeed is fooling around the bible promise him a nice reward... that is not your decision yours is to ensure that you don't end up there with HINN... there is a reward for you also...

the church system is ruled by evil men. the churches of this day and age are big fat profiteering mongers who prey off peoples fears and lack of self thought.

in the bible it states that the church is the body of Christ and has nothing to do with buildings and pulpits. that my friend is a tradition derived from the pagans in Rome.

Same goes for wearing a little cross around your neck. When the early christian evangelists converted the norse they took a liking to norse jewelry (they were the best at the craft back then) In particular the norse used to wear a hammer which represented Tor (Thor God of thunder). They off course made a cross. Another Pagan tradition.

Xmas comes from the Norse celebration Yuletide. Another Pagan Tradition.

I did not ever read where j3sus arrived in a huge chariot with white steeds to go an heal people. Never read a story of him staying in a 5 star or posh motel/hotel, yet this fool in Nigeria arrives in a helicopter and from the helicopter a humvee pics him up to drive him +/- 30 meters and then he goes to heal people, but his first message: A message of tithing.

Then to top it off he wears surgical gloves - explain how that fits in with healing of hands?

the church system is satan personified and has tricked you as you are so fond of saying.

nocilah

11-01-2007, 09:55 PM

Did you see the money personally? Because i saw guys walking around holding crutches in the air and if i am not wrong some wheelchairs too.

u mean the actors?

Mr TB

11-01-2007, 10:15 PM

u mean the actors?

You are jealous,jealous,jealous of what god has given to BENNY HINN and you and your soulmates with covet and spit because you don't hate HINN but god... You hate god that is why you are spitting...

If you don't hate god do a proper study of his teachings, showing you exactly how the old testament fits into the new testament. Once you sit with the bible openminded checking it out verse by verse comparing it with with the new testament... You will not believe BENNY HINN , you will believe god.

nocilah

11-01-2007, 10:18 PM

You are jealous,jealous,jealous of what god has given to BENNY HINN and you and your soulmates with covet and spit because you don't hate HINN but god... You hate god that is why you are spitting...

If you don't hate god do a proper study of his teachings, showing you exactly how the old testament fits into the new testament. Once you sit with the bible openminded checking it out verse by verse comparing it with with the new testament... You will not believe BENNY HINN , you will believe god.

funny how you never say J3sus, is Benny Hinn your new idol?

sad777

11-01-2007, 10:59 PM

brenden e

i was not talking about satanism because nobody is really discussing satanism but are totally opinionated on God & christianity and if you do not know God or have experienced Him firsthand how can you have anything to say at all and as far as the love goes this love will jump up and be in your face and you won't recognise it.

nod & jabulani

if that is so important in your life what a poor little grey and narrow existence.

sad777

11-01-2007, 11:15 PM

simple simon

a) true
b) false

sad777

12-01-2007, 12:06 AM

PiesangTee
the behavior sets in during a prayer session with the (dutch reformed*) police chaplin

i have encountered such cases and others as well and in one instance a man has asked me to leave his house because his wife had an epileptic fit enerytime i visited them when you are filled with the Holy Spirit these demons or unclean spirits has no other option as to bow down to the Christ in us because He that is in us is greater than he that is in them. It is easy to call it hocus pocus but speak to those that has been delivered and set free, satan and his kind entrap people with their lies and in the end you find these people with lives full of fear, confused, disillusioned and in slavery (drugs, alcohol etc.)

nocilah

12-01-2007, 12:10 AM

i have encountered such cases and others as well and in one instance a man has asked me to leave his house because his wife had an epileptic fit enerytime i visited them when you are filled with the Holy Spirit these demons or unclean spirits has no other option as to bow down to the Christ in us because He that is in us is greater than he that is in them. It is easy to call it hocus pocus but speak to those that has been delivered and set free, satan and his kind entrap people with their lies and in the end you find these people with lives full of fear, confused, disillusioned and in slavery (drugs, alcohol etc.)

:rolleyes: maybe you had a severe case of BO?

seriously - there has only ever been one recorded case of possession and that is where the whole "i am legion" story comes from that we see in almost every - sweet girl gets possessed movie.

every other "possession" has turned out to be fraud or a medical condition.

sad777

12-01-2007, 12:27 AM

halicon

Medical condition??? no such thing!!

nocilah

12-01-2007, 12:37 AM

halicon

Medical condition??? no such thing!!

so are certified insane people residing in a mental institute possessed according to your beliefs?

arf9999

12-01-2007, 10:20 AM

halicon

Medical condition??? no such thing!!

Are you a scientologist? Or just in denial?

arf9999

12-01-2007, 10:32 AM

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1105161208
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/21282.html?1167194020
http://www.trinityfi.org/press/heretic.html
http://www.geocities.com/mw_director/tbnwatch0301.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/hinn/hinn1.html
http://www.sherrytalkradio.com/hinn/index.htm
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/h01ad01-Benny-Hinn-Dateline.html
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/Benny_Hinn.htm
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ti020006.htm

Google for "Benny Hinn is a Fraud"

Results 11 - 20 of about 86,000 for benny hinn is a fraud. (0.15 seconds)
:D

fivelza

12-01-2007, 02:36 PM

Google for "Benny Hinn is a Fraud"

I saw the program Carte blanche aired regarding Benny Hinn....worrying stuff :mad:

mancombseepgood

12-01-2007, 03:19 PM

:rolleyes: maybe you had a severe case of BO?

seriously - there has only ever been one recorded case of possession and that is where the whole "i am legion" story comes from that we see in almost every - sweet girl gets possessed movie.

every other "possession" has turned out to be fraud or a medical condition.

Halicon... what makes you think this... only one recorded case... and who did the analysis of all these cases. And who documented the only case in your opinion.

mancombseepgood

12-01-2007, 03:21 PM

so are certified insane people residing in a mental institute possessed according to your beliefs?

Sure - some may be - I wouldn't say all. But all sickness is because of the fall - whether you are healed by God while on earth or whether you pass on with a condition doesn't determine your existence in eternity though - that is up to him.

LoneGunman

12-01-2007, 03:47 PM

a note of sanity - and the story sofar.

PiesangTee is arguing on behalf of a collection of myths and tiny bits of history, wedged together into a book, decided by fairly primitive humans, who chose to ignore a HUGE quantity of other books, all written at the same time, by assorted people long after a supposed event.

This book supposedly explains 'everything' and places a big imaginary fat fairy, in a pink figure hugger, buzzing wings and a magic wand, in charge of and responsible for 'everything' -and this thread is ostensibly about the fat fairy's direct enemy.

PiesangTee - without any proof in terms of what science regards as proof - believes there's a fairytale eternity waiting for him, because he believes in the Fat Fairy, and as for everyone else, well, they're going to burn forever, courtesy of the Fat Fairy's big enemy.

So this argument, while seeming to be 'sensible' - is clearly based on madness, insanity and self delusion, all round.

Shall we reserve beds at the local asylum?
:P

NBC

08-03-2007, 04:23 PM

LoneGunman,

I am particularly interested in your signature: “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”, but I'll get to that just now.

Firstly, there were no books during this 'primitive' (as you call it) time. These people did not write these gospels and eye witness accounts "long after a supposed event". All the gospels and New Testiment were written during the time of Jesus and before 100 A.D.. And this can be proven, by the way, with science above all (and archeology if you still doubt the results). There is more evidence that Jesus actually existed than Julius Ceasar. There are various ancient artifacts reflecting this. Google. Just another though, don't you find it funny that the Old Testiment is so accurately confirmed by the New Testiment? Even though the O.T. (Genesis) was written more than 1000 B.C?

Sad777, AWESOME!

I have had the Holy Spirit speak through me. I know truth and I speak it. I have seen miracles, yes. And I have had confirmation of what the Holy Spirit said through me in Matthew, word for word.

About your fairy tale, LoneGunman. This proves to me that God is greater, because fairies are not from Him. You calling Christianity that, proves to me that you know very little about it, disrespect it and have no time for anyone's opinion except your own. Fairies are from early pagan beliefs, originating from (now) Ireland and surrounding areas. They worship, among other things, the sun (ie, horus), which in turn, comes from the Egyptians (ra). Christians worship a devine being that cannot be seen, but who's devine power can be seen. Non-Christians believe in someting that can be seen, but its power not. This is not something to debate over lightly, even if you do not believe in Christ.

And yes, there is an eternity waiting for us, but for Christians, it's going to be way better than a fairytale, that I promise you.

If you feel the need for a bed in the asylum, well......

Now your signature. Read it again.

nthdimension

08-03-2007, 04:37 PM

All the gospels and New Testiment were written during the time of Jesus
Afraid not. They were written after he was dead and mostly by people who never met him.

There is more evidence that Jesus actually existed than Julius Ceasar.
There is actually not much evidence for Jesus other than third hand accounts. Some of those accounts conflict directly historical records.

But even if Jesus did exist it does not support any supernatural claims. These are unverified and can never be verified.

Just another though, don't you find it funny that the Old Testiment is so accurately confirmed by the New Testiment?
Not really. The new testament was written afterwards so it would be easy to make the story match the earlier writings.

I have had the Holy Spirit speak through me. I know truth and I speak it. I have seen miracles, yes. And I have had confirmation of what the Holy Spirit said through me in Matthew, word for word.
Psycho wards are full of people who think God speaks to them.

because fairies are not from Him.
You don't understand what he said.

And yes, there is an eternity waiting for us, but for Christians, it's going to be way better than a fairytale, that I promise you.
According to the Jewish faith which Christianity bastardised and distorted you're wrong. It isn't reserved for Christians.

fivelza

08-03-2007, 04:50 PM

Psycho wards are full of people who think God speaks to them.

Hmmm, but more of them outside than in ;)

LoneGunman

08-03-2007, 05:58 PM

*points to the White House*

Alan

08-03-2007, 06:39 PM

*points to glowing Ahemi*

NBC

08-03-2007, 07:31 PM

Afraid not. They were written after he was dead and mostly by people who never met him.

Prove this. I have proof that says the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke were all written before 70 A.D., because Luke does not even mention the destruction of Jerusalem in 79 A.D., nor does he mention the deaths of James (62 A.D.), Paul (64 A.D.), and Peter (65 A.D.). Since Acts is a historical document dealing with the church, we would naturally expect such important events to be recorded if Acts was written after this fact. Since Acts 1:1-2 mentions that it is the second writing of Luke, the gospel of Luke was written even earlier. Also, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple in the gospels: "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:5, see also Matt. 24:1; Mark 13:1). Undoubtedly, if Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written after the destruction of the Temple, they would have included the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in them. Since they don't, it is very strong indication that they were written before 70 A.D.
Seeing that Paul wrote most of the N.T., this also proves that all of it was written by people who either knew Christ personally, met Him, or under the direction of His disciples.

There is actually not much evidence for Jesus other than third hand accounts. Some of those accounts conflict directly historical records.
The above is pretty much first hand, not third. Which historical facts are in conflict with this? Again, any proof? What third hand accounts do you have from that time (or any credible discoveries) to prove otherwise? Here are some recent archeological discoveries with proof that the Bible is true:

From the O.T.:
Abraham’s home city
Joseph, Abraham’s great grandson, rules Egypt
The Red Sea crossing and the remains of Pharaoh’s army
The mountain of God (Mt. Sinai), and Israel’s camp, in Saudi Arabia
Conquest of Jericho
Seal of King Jeraboam
The scroll of Isaiah

And N.T.:
Accuracy of names, places and dates in the gospels
Ports of Galilee
Pontius Pilate’s inscription
A coin like that shown by Jesus to the Pharisees
Jesus’ prophecy about the temple (Destruction of Jerusalem in 79 A.D.)
Darkness over the Middle East at time of Jesus’ death (Proven through astrology)
The Crucifixion Site
Jesus' Tomb

But even if Jesus did exist it does not support any supernatural claims. These are unverified and can never be verified.
Oh yes it can. Miracles still happen today, and as I said, I have seen miracles being performed. I know of a person (1st hand account, by the way) who was dismembered, but healed instantly. Just the mere fact that His tomb was found without any bones or remains, suggests the supernatural (People were balsamed in those days too for preservation and no, it was not only the Egyptians). I suppose if you do not want to see miracles, you won't.

Not really. The new testament was written afterwards so it would be easy to make the story match the earlier writings.
If this is all fiction, why would these 'primitive' people write the O.T. in so much detail? Would't that be too much of a stretch for their imagination?
The O.T. mostly lays down the law and prophecises the coming of Jesus, that he will die on the cross and the events (and people) leading to that. The numerous miracles and his life in general are not. The gospels were written in different decades and places. Fiction that corresponds perfectly from different sources? I think not.

Psycho wards are full of people who think God speaks to them.
Names please? Anyone you know? Sounds like you have a good knowledge about psycho wards who have these people.

You don't understand what he said.
I undertand perfectly. He compares our faith to a fairy tale, and us worshipping a fat fairy. He also states: "So this argument, while seeming to be 'sensible' - is clearly based on madness, insanity and self delusion, all round."; typical atheist statement. Surely, more than a hundred million people cannot be suffering from the same sickeness (madness, insanity, delusion)? Are you qualified to diagnose anyone for observation, medically or scientifically? Seeing that science is the kind of proof you prefer.

According to the Jewish faith which Christianity bastardised and distorted you're wrong. It isn't reserved for Christians.
The Jews also believe that you have to uphold in excess of 600 laws to get to heaven. Heaven is reserved for those who believe in Christ. Proof of his coming is in the O.T. and I have supplied evidence that He did, in fact, exist.

New archeological discoverings are everytime proving historical claims in the Bible.

There are 10 non-Christian accounts (from His time) of his ressurrection.

Read http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2007/02/06/new-tvdvd-documentary-to-bring-scientific-proof-of-christs-resurrection/ if you really want to know more.

Lastly, we were warned from the start about being mocked, rejected and even killed, so I am expecting these answers.

FlyingPika

08-03-2007, 08:09 PM

Yeah they do delete posts that are just copy paste efforts, i posted something on evolution and it was deleted too.

NBC

08-03-2007, 08:16 PM

They usually will. The world wants to keep these things hidden, otherwise they will have to give up their perversity and fortunes - they want sensation, not salvation. Just keep talking - those who want the truth, might just hear it from you!

nthdimension

08-03-2007, 08:28 PM

If this is all fiction, why would these 'primitive' people write the O.T. in so much detail? Would't that be too much of a stretch for their imagination?
The O.T. mostly lays down the law and prophecises the coming of Jesus, that he will die on the cross and the events (and people) leading to that. The numerous miracles and his life in general are not. The gospels were written in different decades and places. Fiction that corresponds perfectly from different sources?
The detail of the old testament is not relevant. The messiah spoken of in the old testament is not Jesus.

The Christian religion has had to bend and twist old testament writing in a desperate attempt to make Jesus into the Messiah, and still what they have created is not the messiah as predicted and expected by the Jews.

Are you claiming that each writer of a piece of the new testament had no transfer of information? How did they manage to write about Jesus when they never met him?

There are numerous problems in the new testament. Disagreements about what really happened. One says Judas bought a field, another says he threw his money down in the temple, then committed suicide.

The Jews believe you have to follow the rules if you want to go straight to heaven, but they also believe that everyone eventually gets to heaven.

NBC

08-03-2007, 09:28 PM

The detail of the old testament is not relevant. The messiah spoken of in the old testament is not Jesus.
Proof please? History is always relevant if you want to know where you come from.

The Christian religion has had to bend and twist old testament writing in a desperate attempt to make Jesus into the Messiah, and still what they have created is not the messiah as predicted and expected by the Jews.
Also, not true. The Bible is always translated from the original texts (Mostly Greek, Hebrew and Latin). See
http://www.carm.org/questions/rewritten.htm. But if the detail of the O.T. is not relevant, it shouldn't be of concern to you, right?

Are you claiming that each writer of a piece of the new testament had no transfer of information? How did they manage to write about Jesus when they never met him?
Did you even read the evidence I put forward?

There are numerous problems in the new testament. Disagreements about what really happened. One says Judas bought a field, another says he threw his money down in the temple, then committed suicide.
Read Acts 1:16-19. They are clear on this. He did commit suicide. Acts is spicific on where. That's the only difference. Reference: http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt27_3.htm

The Jews believe you have to follow the rules if you want to go straight to heaven, but they also believe that everyone eventually gets to heaven.
The gospels say otherwise. If so, why aren't they in heaven already? If your deeds can get you there, why would God let us waste them on earth? And by the way, they believe in 3 heavens, not just 1, which also contradicts what the Word says.

I have given you evidence and facts, you give me simple statements. God is always true to His Word (O.T. and N.T.). He remains the same, and always will. We don't condemn people who don't believe. In fact, our most important instruction (besides loving God above all and loving one another) is to spread the gospel and make disciples of people (if they want to accept the truth). We don't force anyone to believe. It's free will.

I am a Christian believer and always will be.:D

LoneGunman

08-03-2007, 09:38 PM

silly puppies

I recommend:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

"Christianity was the ultimate product of religious syncretism in the ancient world. Its emergence owed nothing to a holy carpenter. There were many Jesuses but the fable was a cultural construct. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs. Following a star would lead you in circles. The 12 disciples are as fictitious as their master, invented to legitimise the claims of the early churches. The original Mary was not a virgin. That idea was borrowed from pagan goddesses.

Scholars have known all this for more than 200 years but priestcraft is a highly profitable business and finances an industry of deceit to keep the show on the road. "Jesus better documented than any other ancient figure" ? Don't believe a word of it. Unlike the mythical Jesus, a real historical figure like Julius Caesar has a mass of mutually supporting evidence."

followed by THE VIRGIN BIRTH STORY - OTHER STORIES OF VIRGIN BIRTHS
http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml
"It may be thought that the story of a virgin birth is too wonderful to have been invented merely to show that a misunderstood prophecy had been fulfilled, and that so miraculous a doctrine could not, without some basis of fact, suddenly be created by any brain, however fertile. But a study of ancient literature discloses the fact that myths of virgin births were part of many if not of all the surrounding pagan religions in the place where, and at the time when, Christianity arose."

PAGAN ORIGINS OF THE CHRIST MYTH
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html

THE MYTH OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS
(REFUTING MISSIONARIES)
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html

The Origins of Christianity and
the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

AND LETS NOT FORGET THE VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN HOLOCAUST

Read the undeniable facts, from History, detailing the slaughter, murder and horrors that 'Christianity'
has brought upon the world - while pretending to be on the side of goodness..
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
AND
http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/victimsofchristianity.html

There, that provides enough to start with, to make the swallower's of
silly sunday school stories and parental brain washing from a young age,
go "oops' - I've been worshiping imaginary fat fairies and amalgams of other
peoples myths"
:)

Claymore

08-03-2007, 09:52 PM

From the O.T.:
Joseph, Abraham’s great grandson, rules Egypt
The Red Sea crossing and the remains of Pharaoh’s army

I would like to see some evidence of these ones...

And N.T.:
Accuracy of names, places and dates in the gospels

That means nothing. Stephen King gets the geography of Maine right in hgis novels; that doesn't mean his books are not fiction.

Darkness over the Middle East at time of Jesus’ death (Proven through astrology)

"Proven through astrology"? You have to be kidding! Did Linda Goodman do Jesus' star sign too?

Jesus' Tomb

Really?

If this is all fiction, why would these 'primitive' people write the O.T. in so much detail? Would't that be too much of a stretch for their imagination?

Why should it? The Norse, Finnish, Indian and Chinese myths and stories are also very detailed.

NBC

08-03-2007, 09:59 PM

AND LETS NOT FORGET THE VICTIMS OF THE CHRISTIAN HOLOCAUST

Read the undeniable facts, from History, detailing the slaughter, murder and horrors that 'Christianity'
has brought upon the world - while pretending to be on the side of goodness..

Those were corrupt, ROMAN priests, not Christians. The Catholic Church.

Believe what you like. If you hear the truth and reject it, you obviously don't want it.

My faith, religion and opinion stands. Debate all you like - the truth has been posted.

I will, none the less pray for you.

noxibox

08-03-2007, 10:04 PM

History is always relevant if you want to know where you come from.
What does the detail of the Old Testament have to do with authors' of the New Testament making up stories tailored to match a few prophecies from the Old Testament?

Read Acts 1:16-19. They are clear on this. He did commit suicide. Acts is spicific on where. That's the only difference.
What happened to fulfilling the prophecy that he would buy a field with his money?

If so, why aren't they in heaven already? If your deeds can get you there, why would God let us waste them on earth?
That's a weak argument. The same could be said of the whole Jesus dog and pony show. Why waste time on all that when God can just subdivide everyone in advance? God obviously already knows who is and is not going to believe.

Neo

08-03-2007, 10:08 PM

There are 10 non-Christian accounts (from His time) of his ressurrection.

Read http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2007/02/06/new-tvdvd-documentary-to-bring-scientific-proof-of-christs-resurrection/ if you really want to know more.

Lastly, we were warned from the start about being mocked, rejected and even killed, so I am expecting these answers.

Thanks for the link, just read it. But can't find any evidence in there of anything. Looks like a review of an upcoming TV show. Where do you see proof of anything in this link? You'll have to do better, I'm afraid.

You're going to killed on this forum?? Bit paraniod, don't you think?

But glad you've got all the evidence to show Jesus did exist. You'll sort out a lot of issues for the highly educated biblical scholars who've been trying to find this evidence for centuries. In reading on the subject for a few decade myself, I've not been able to find it.

Where can we read your research and published papers?

Claymore

08-03-2007, 10:19 PM

Those were corrupt, ROMAN priests, not Christians. The Catholic Church.

Er...Catholics *are* Christians, no matter how much you might disagree with what they did.

nthdimension

08-03-2007, 10:25 PM

Darkness over the Middle East at time of Jesus’ death (Proven through astrology)
Right, where is it recorded that this happened? And no you can't answer, "In the Bible."

Where is it recorded that the Jews were in Egypt and the Pharoah's army drowned in the Red Sea?

You need to do some reading on the authorship of the new testament. It was all written long after Jesus is supposed to have died and the actual authors of many of the books are unknown, although there is conjecture as to who they may have been.

noxibox

08-03-2007, 10:31 PM

http://www.carm.org/questions/rewritten.htm.
Posted before. Still waiting for someone to post proper references for that chart so we can ascertain how they came to their conclusions. I'd also want to see the claims corroborated by people who do not have a vested interest in Christianity.

noxibox

08-03-2007, 10:35 PM

Read http://catchthefire.com.au/blog/2007/02/06/new-tvdvd-documentary-to-bring-scientific-proof-of-christs-resurrection/
They seem to have left out the evidence part.

NBC

09-03-2007, 07:39 AM

Posted before. Still waiting for someone to post proper references for that chart so we can ascertain how they came to their conclusions. I'd also want to see the claims corroborated by people who do not have a vested interest in Christianity.

1) Christian Apologetics, by Norman Geisler, 1976, p. 307; 2) the article "Archaeology and History attest to the Reliability of the Bible," by Richard M. Fales, Ph.D., in The Evidence Bible, Compiled by Ray Comfort, Bridge-Logos Publishers, Gainesville, FL, 2001, p. 163; and 3) A Ready Defense, by Josh Mcdowell, 1993, p. 45.

If it's not enogh to start, do some research of your own?

What happened to fulfilling the prophecy that he would buy a field with his money?
You obviously did not read it. That's where he committed suicide: in his field.

But glad you've got all the evidence to show Jesus did exist. You'll sort out a lot of issues for the highly educated biblical scholars who've been trying to find this evidence for centuries. In reading on the subject for a few decade myself, I've not been able to find it.

Where can we read your research and published papers?

Trying to find evidence for the reason to disprove, might just convince you. Look harder. It's there.

I never calimed to have published research or papers, but I might, after your statements, who knows. Depends why you want to read it. :) When I do, and if this forum still exists, I will post the link here, for sure.

Try to find the documentary mentioned in the link, instead of stopping after the review/article. That way you can give an informed opinion.

Er...Catholics *are* Christians, no matter how much you might disagree with what they did.
Correction, SOME Catholics are Christains. Not everyone going to Christian church is a Christian.

Right, where is it recorded that this happened? And no you can't answer, "In the Bible."

Where is it recorded that the Jews were in Egypt and the Pharoah's army drowned in the Red Sea?

You need to do some reading on the authorship of the new testament. It was all written long after Jesus is supposed to have died and the actual authors of many of the books are unknown, although there is conjecture as to who they may have been.

How many articles have you read on the stars' positioning during the ages? And archeology? Specifically on biblical events? Not enough, maybe?

I did extensive reading ON and IN the N.T. No single book was written after 100 A.D. I suggest you read my previous posts regarding this. There is evidence and common sense included, no bible versers.

They seem to have left out the evidence part.
See my comment for Neo above.

LoneGunman, your links are interesting, but have a lot of holes in the stories. For example, www.medmalexperts.com claims that Augustus was a mythical figure, which he was not. He was normal human being and a roman emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus - Historical facts, not a Christian opinion) and he was the one who corrected Julius Ceasar's boo-boo concerning the leap years. Hence the month of August.

Here's what Wikipedia says about dionysus: "He was also known as the Liberator (Eleutherios), freeing one from one's normal self, by madness, ecstasy, or wine" Madness? Did I read that right?

They also say "Within Greek mythology Dionysus is made to be the son of Zeus and Semele; other versions of the story contend that he is the son of Zeus and Persephone. He is described as being womanly or "man-womanish". Nowhere is Jesus described like that. I know about the similarities you'll propably put forward like: both turned water into wine. Lets get on thing straight here: Even your source agrees that dionysus is a myth. They are trying to prove that Jesus was a myth, despite the more than 200 books concerning His life, according to www.jesusneverexisted.com, which were all written during the 2nd century, they claim, but I proved differently earlier.

I am not going into all the mythical figures, but I'm sure you get the picture.

And http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/lying.htm, only that one verse is quoted. Read the chapter, and don't worry it's not too long (31 verses). Paul speaks about law and faith.

I read almost all of your references and external links from it (http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html included, but the original ducument the author states he ripped his info from, does not exist). There's a lot of repitition and reasoning, but little fact or evidence. Most CONCLUDE due to a lack thereof, they say.

nthdimension

09-03-2007, 10:26 AM

No single book was written after 100 A.D.
Are you aware that Jesus died long before this?

noxibox

09-03-2007, 10:50 AM

1) Christian Apologetics, by Norman Geisler, 1976, p. 307; 2) the article "Archaeology and History attest to the Reliability of the Bible," by Richard M. Fales, Ph.D., in The Evidence Bible, Compiled by Ray Comfort, Bridge-Logos Publishers, Gainesville, FL, 2001, p. 163; and 3) A Ready Defense, by Josh Mcdowell, 1993, p. 45.
It is interesting that Richard Fales' own chart does not exactly match the details given on carm.org. But still Richard Fales does not indicate how he came to these results and gives no references. I have searched and all references to this chart are people either posting it or referring to carm.org. It therefore looks suspiciously like the authors have little to back this up and no-one independent has checked their results.

What is the relevance of the New Testament manuscripts being copied accurately?

NBC

09-03-2007, 11:02 AM

Are you aware that Jesus died long before this?
33 A.D. He died, yes. Because of the flaw caused by Julius Ceasar, Augustus overcorrected, so our calendar is actually 3 years fast, which makes it 30 A.D. and means that the goslpels were written before 97 A.D, and Christ actually born 3 B.C. That still means you're sitting with a lot of first hand accounts, because James (62 A.D.) and Peter (65 A.D.) were still alive after Christs death.

nthdimension

09-03-2007, 11:10 AM

The dates estimate for the writing are based on our modern calendar so no correction should be necessary.

Try this - tell a story to someone, and have them retell that story for 35 years, then have someone to whom they told it write it down. That is the new testament.

And why is Jonh's story of what happened so different to the others? There is a reason why it is suspected that Matthew, Mark and Luke are all based off the same manuscript. Why do the books even have those names?

NBC

09-03-2007, 11:39 AM

Then 3 years shouldn't be of concern, right?

If possible, prove to me the theory you have about the N.T. These books have their names, because they were written by those people.

Here is CARMs estimate of dates: http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm (based on various papers and research :Chafer, Lewis Sperry, Major Bible Themes, rev. Walvoord, John F., Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervan, 1974.
Geisler, Norman L and Nix, William E., From God to Us: How we got our Bible. Chicago, Moody Press, 1974.
Geisler, Norman, ed., Biblical Errancy; An analysis of its Philosophical Roots, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Zondervan, 1981.
Geisler, Norman, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Baker Books, 1999.
Herklots, H.G.G., How our Bible Came to Us, New York, Galaxy, 1954.
McDowell, Josh, A Ready Defense, compiled by Bill Wilson, Nashville, Tenn. Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1993.
Perrin, Norman, What is Redaction Criticism?, Philadelphia, Fortress Press, 1969.
The Infallible Word, A Symposium by Members of the Faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary, New Jersey, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1946.
Unger, Merrill, F., Unger's Bible Dictionary, Chicago, Moody Press. 1966.
Willmington, H.L., Willmington's Book of Bible Lists, Wheaton, Ill, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. 1987.
World, The Lost Books of the Bible, Cleveland, The World Publishing Company, 1926.)

I know of slight differences between the Gnostic gospels and the gospel of John, but the core of the message is still the same? Being that Christ became God in the flesh to save us from sin?

Remember, John was related to Jesus. He baptised Him. So he MET him.

If you signed your name on a document, what reason do I have to believe that you did not?

NBC

09-03-2007, 01:04 PM

It is interesting that Richard Fales' own chart does not exactly match the details given on carm.org. But still Richard Fales does not indicate how he came to these results and gives no references. I have searched and all references to this chart are people either posting it or referring to carm.org. It therefore looks suspiciously like the authors have little to back this up and no-one independent has checked their results.

What is the relevance of the New Testament manuscripts being copied accurately?

I suggest you visit www.livingwaters.com or www.evidencebible.com and get in contact with them. A Ph.D. involves a thesis, and I'm sure that Richard Fales' is public domain. In there you should find enough references to last you a while. Most findings and evidence is found through museums, archeological institutes and, yes, biblical scholars, who have had interest in that time. Universities also contribute a lot to this cause.

The relevance of accuracy is not more important than the core message it brings. Most people argue about things, concerning the Bible, that are not really that important, as you pointed out. Therefore they miss the point completely, and do not comprehend or understand the message in it's enirety.

nthdimension

09-03-2007, 01:08 PM

You had better let Biblical scholars know. You've proved them wrong. The authors are all known to you without a doubt. Why are they even bothering to study and debate these things when you have all the answers?

John the Baptist was beheaded either shortly before or not long after Jesus was executed. It must be difficult to write a gospel without a head.

9 The king was grieved, yet out of regard for his oaths and for the guests, he commanded it to be given; 10 he sent and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 The head was brought on a platter and given to the girl, who brought it to her mother. 12 His disciples came and took the body and buried it; then they went and told Jesus.

Other records put it somewhat later.

noxibox

09-03-2007, 01:18 PM

When he says Saint Charles University, Louisiana does he mean St Charles Community College in Louisiana?

I want research by scholars, real scholars, not Christian apologists.

I think it is vitally important to know whether the authors of the New Testament just made it all up. Proving that it was copied accurately proves nothing.

The peace and love message attributed to Jesus pre-dates him.

Claymore

09-03-2007, 01:20 PM

Hmmm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels

Dating
Estimates for the dates when the canonical Gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the Gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Conservative scholars tend to date earlier than others, while liberal scholars usually date later. The following are mostly the date ranges given by the late Raymond E. Brown, in his book An Introduction to the New Testament, as representing the general scholarly consensus in 1996 (for a fuller discussion of dating, please see the articles for each Gospel):

Mark: c. 68–73
Matthew: c. 70–100 as the majority view; some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85
John: c. 90–110. Brown does not give a consensus view for John, but these are dates as propounded by C K Barrett, among others. The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
Traditional Christian scholarship has generally preferred to assign earlier dates. Some historians interpret the end of the book of Acts as indicative, or at least suggestive, of its date; as Acts does not mention the death of Paul, generally accepted as the author of many of the Epistles, who was later put to death by the Romans c. 65. Acts is attributed to the author of the Gospel of Luke, and therefore would shift the chronology of authorship back, putting Mark as early as the mid 50s. Here are the dates given in the modern NIV Study Bible (for a fuller discussion see Augustinian hypothesis):

Mark: c. 50s to early 60s, or late 60s
Matthew: c. 50 to 70s
Luke: c. 59 to 63, or 70s to 80s
John: c. 85 to near 100, or 50s to 70

nthdimension

09-03-2007, 01:21 PM

I want research by scholars, real scholars, not Christian apologists.
You're not going to get it, because the bulk of Biblical scholars do not agree with the apologists who for reasons of protecting their religion are forced to attribute the texts to specific authors, and to attempt to date them as early as possible so it appears to have been written near firsthand.

NBC

09-03-2007, 01:23 PM

Whoever said John wrote his entire gospel after he was dead? I know quite a few people who keep journals. Doesn't seem that far fetched for him to have done that. It is quite possible that his gospel was finished by one of the apostles, I don't deny that. But in order for John to have such an accurate account of what happend, updating his writings on a regular basis seems very likely.

I think I have said what can be said. Nobody who keeps denying truth (and evidence) will receive it, because they don't want it. And I'm not going to force it either.

I'll keep watching your comments though. It was a very good debate. Even I know much more now! If you still post questions, I will try to answer them.

nthdimension

09-03-2007, 01:23 PM

NBC

09-03-2007, 01:27 PM

NBC

09-03-2007, 01:30 PM

Claymore even more interesting than the dates is the difficulty in determining who wrote these books. Not the names on them, but the actual authors, and how much they copied from each other and possible lost texts.

Why do you think the Bible is the most researched book in history? If it's false, why are other manuscripts, tales and myths not researched this intensely? Even the Quoran?

Claymore

09-03-2007, 02:09 PM

Why do you think the Bible is the most researched book in history? If it's false, why are other manuscripts, tales and myths not researched this intensely? Even the Quoran?

People have studied Shakespeare in detail for centuries. Ditto many other books. Just because something is studied intensely does not make it true.

NBC

09-03-2007, 02:30 PM

People have studied Shakespeare in detail for centuries. Ditto many other books. Just because something is studied intensely does not make it true.
What I said was, it's the most intensely researched book in the world. That in itsself does not make it true, no, but it also does not prove the opposite.

A vast majority of archeologists researching this stuff to prove the opposite, have actually found it to be true. Read William Ramsay's "The Bible and Archeology". He graduated from Oxford and set out on a mission to disprove his professors. Makes you think...

If you can't find it, I have all the articles with me. I'll gladly give it to you.

Claymore

09-03-2007, 02:59 PM

A vast majority of archeologists researching this stuff to prove the opposite, have actually found it to be true. Read William Ramsay's "The Bible and Archeology". He graduated from Oxford and set out on a mission to disprove his professors. Makes you think...

Found what to be true? I have no issue with many of the places in Judea that were mentioned in the Bible existing; that's to be expected. Specific events, however, are a different kettle of fish.

NBC

09-03-2007, 03:19 PM

Places are much easier to confirm, I agree. Events are harder though. There are claims of Noah's Ark being discovered and remains of the Romans in the Red Sea, among others, but I am still reading up on that. More info soon...

Ramsay's article is very very interesting. Here's a link you can get it in 2 parts. Free BTW. (The Bible and Archeology):http://www.ucg.org/booklets/

Mr TB

09-03-2007, 03:31 PM

Found what to be true? I have no issue with many of the places in Judea that were mentioned in the Bible existing; that's to be expected. Specific events, however, are a different kettle of fish.

The same argument is valid for evolution and of course what do you call it, hypothesis...

It is valid until proven wrong, all the views in favor of the non-religious, funny is it not?

NBC

09-03-2007, 05:27 PM

The same argument is valid for evolution and of course what do you call it, hypothesis...

It is valid until proven wrong, all the views in favor of the non-religious, funny is it not?

Mmmmmmm... Indeed.

honorablepassion

09-03-2007, 06:53 PM

you guys are amusing - say somethin that matters, will ya?
looking at the bigger picture of things, it seems to be that satanists truely are ruling the world - and ones who play with mystery babylonian religon at that (Rev 17:2+5)
i went to a hacker convention last year, and came across about 10 'order of the left handed path' kids.. one was in voting to be an admin on wikipedia (elonka)..
the group actually seemed to get along AMAZINGLY well with the CIA; were there beforehand, hungout whole time, stayed after together... honestly, they seemed structured together.
was actually a knights templar guy at the hotel who was all dressed up & carrying a sword - wasn't for the convention, just for the protection of the hotel i'd imagine.
i came across a girl recently who claimed to be of the krupp family - a mccarty (families of the illuminati junk.. somethin i haven't really researched in depth as yet) she knew the names/family of the cia kids that i'd met at the hacker convention, and knew quite a few things that give me the impression that she is who she says.
*note* anyone with a 'ly', 'li', 'lynn' or anything with a 'lying' type name who dresses well, and seems to know about gov/whatnot junk is probably legit - especially if they have a card.
but anyway.. she was telling me that 5-10% of shriners, 50% fbi, 90% nsa, 95% cia (all except analysists), 5-10% knights columbus, 75% of DeMolay (what Clinton was in) are all DIRECTLY satanist..
i'd kinda like to know the % of various other groups - and know more about all this ghosting crap/how things are structured.. and which agency in particular is in charge of Chase Bank (which now owns all other banks); nwo is basically here... just consolidating @ the moment.
ADD SOMETHING USEFUL - um.. www.fotki.com/honorablepassion <the 1995 INWO game which is EXCELLENT for directions to research in - at least 1/2 the cards have to do with reality ;)

Beancounter

09-03-2007, 09:43 PM

Read William Ramsay's "The Bible and Archeology". He graduated from Oxford and set out on a mission to disprove his professors. Makes you think...

This immediately rings alarm bells. He should have set out with a view to see where the evidence led him. To be on a mission to disprove his professors is to start with a biased view - not very scientific.

Beancounter

09-03-2007, 09:44 PM

- at least 1/2 the cards have to do with reality ;)

Which is more than can be said for your post. ;)

Beancounter

09-03-2007, 09:50 PM

There are claims of Noah's Ark being discovered and remains of the Romans in the Red Sea, among others, but I am still reading up on that. More info soon...

IF Noah's Ark had been discovered don't you think it would be on show in some museum? Also, unless the thing was massive (and hence I am sure a Google search would throw up pictures) how would they know it was Noah's ark and not some old fishing vessel? (I suppose if it was full of animal ***** that would be one give away ;) )

Also I thought it might be Egyptians at the bottom of the Red Sea?

NBC

10-03-2007, 10:04 AM

This immediately rings alarm bells. He should have set out with a view to see where the evidence led him. To be on a mission to disprove his professors is to start with a biased view - not very scientific.
Disprove his proffessors on Christianity. Do your research. It was based on firstly, archeology, not pure science. Read the article, that way you can give an informed opinion.

Beancounter, you guys crucified me because of a lack of evidence and apparent 3rd hand accounts. If you read the thread, you would notice some strong evidence as well.

My turn to say PROOF. Your friend can say what she likes. If people like George Bush is a satanist, why does he hide it? Where did she get her 'facts' from? If you people truely rule the world, why don't we see your churches/values/power/etc. all over the world? Honestly, I would rather classify that as a dillusion. I am talking day to day life as well. Not just some headline somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere about slaying a goat.

Your statement about ruling the world is also not true, because the Catholic Church is the most powerful business out there. Don't believe me? They own the most property in world. That is a fact. Google might be helpful to get more than one source for this.

FlyingPika

11-03-2007, 04:44 PM

I don't know how many of you have read the black bible, but commercial satanism is just humanism. Basically just please yourself/hedonism. Its about as long as you aren’t hurting other people its all fine. You will get the same message watching TV, its nothing new.

I appeals to people who wanna live their lifes the way they want to. It’s the same as trying to explain to a 6yr old why they cant just eat candy. Veggies are good for you, although they often don’t taste as nice.

But what if you find yourself in a hard situation and every1 only cares about themselves and steps over you? I.e. theres no good Samaritans.

Let the "theres lots of nice satanists who do nice things" responses begin...
Im talking about when some1 is in need, and another person sacrifices alot of their time and effort, which doesn’t line up to well with the overall philosophy of satanism. How many Saint <insert satanist name here> Hospitals are there? Or outreach programmes? But if satanists do such things then more power to them.

It is the same lie satan told eve, and has never stopped telling since.

NBC

12-03-2007, 07:39 AM

On the other hand, satanism is satanism. Whether you then live for yourself (rather atheist), or slaughter animals and have all sorts of rituals, satanism stays satanism. Whether you play in the shallow waters, or go to the extremes, it's the same thing. You're either part of it or you're not.

If you get jerked around in a hard situation and do not retaliate, it makes people wonder why. The question is not what you would do, but what Christ would.

And about "sacrificing". A satanist cannot be "nice" for no reason. If the motivation behind doing ANYTHING is something other than love, without expecting anything in return, then rather leave it, if you're a Christian. That Godly Love must be your driving force in all you do.

Satan and his followers prefer to stay hidden and attack all that is good on different levels, because they don't want you to see them coming. One of your goals as a Christian should be to recognise that lie and expose it for what it is.

The bottom line is, nothing they do can change your salvation. They might cause a little hickup here and there, but that's all.

Pr⊕phet

12-03-2007, 08:40 AM

NBC.... thanx for the nice smile.

you are a good example on how the media, folklore and your religion has given your a 'view' on what to know exactly is going on in different religions.

i suppose you would say the same of a druid gathering - slaughtering of animals and small children - HEC i suppose all meat farmers is satanists !!!
all poor animals that gets slaughtered there for our meals ;)

if you keep on thinking WWJD then you are all but a robot - and not truly living your life - God gave you a brain to use it not to robot you.

you must obviously know that there was "sacrificing" in the old testament too
hey all jews was satanists then too ;)

have you actually met one ? have you actually sat with the 'sinners'... ?

there is a great deal of added fear to all religions and movements that
are not christianic, allot of lies and deceit by your fore fathers in faith as well as scare tactics to keep those in line in their beliefs.

i also suppose that you have master knowledge on all ritual magick, that all of them are as bloody as you described, right ?
---------------------------------------------

ever heard about saint lucifer ?
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=63434

interesting read on 'origin of satan' (don't let the link scare you hehe)
http://www.freewebs.com/venus666/origins.html
---------------------------------------------

there also the thing that you must remember that some people out there like to have little christians under their thumbs - and those groups will go along with the romantisized view that christians, media and folklore have made for them.

fear is a power full weapon which both they and some christians leaders/priests and so on uses for control

NBC

12-03-2007, 09:56 AM

Ryuji,

Your reasoning isn't what it should be. With that same attitude you can reason cows eat grass and grass is green, therefore everything that eats green grass, is a cow. Come on!

You are right, God gave you a brain. Some people just choose to waste it. That's the one thing He won't mess with. If people decide to screw up the world, that's their CHOICE. And no, I am not a robot, I've never been more free in my life. I choose to live a better life than people not making a choice.
Funny how you admit that it is, in fact, God that gave you that brain...

Yes, I have sat with a lot of people (I am a sinner too, remember?), so I am in no way better than anyone else. I just talk about what I've seen and read, and I will not condemn or judge (sometimes it's really difficult, tough).

I am not a Catholic, so the "saints" don't carry that much significance to me. There is only one thing that can give you salvation and that is Jesus Christ. Not carrying a rosary cross. One thing people need to understand is that Jesus did not plant the Catholic Church. It's man made. Christians do not need a building or movement or order to have a church. We are His chuch.
Lucifer, well, again, inside the Catholic structure in ancient Rome, where Christians were hunted and killed as part of amusement. Not much in your argument about that...

I have some knowledge of non-Christian rituals, yes. Never claimed to have a master knowledge.

Fear might be a powerful weapon to you, but it's not of much use against a Christian, I'm afraid. Whoever uses fear to force people to do something, cannot be called a Christian. The only thing we should have a fear of, is God himself, and it is not the same fear that you are referring to.

Funny though, if satanism is good for you, why aren't there any posts about it, where are the posts in this thread? All you guys do, is attack Christianity, without supporting evidence. Where are your 'dark miracles', eye witness accounts, archeological evidence? No quotes from your black spell book...

Have a ball with this one. I'm done wasting time with poor arguments. Again, you have the choice.

Beancounter

12-03-2007, 11:00 AM

Fear might be a powerful weapon to you, but it's not of much use against a Christian, I'm afraid. Whoever uses fear to force people to do something, cannot be called a Christian. The only thing we should have a fear of, is God himself, and it is not the same fear that you are referring to.

Funny though, if satanism is good for you, why aren't there eny posts about it, where are the posts in this thread? All you guys do, is attack Christianity, without supporting evidence. Where are your 'dark miracles', eye witness accounts, archeological evidence? No quotes from your black spell book...

Two points from the above I would like to touch on:

Firstly, for my information, what type of fear is the fear of God? I.e. what can you equate it to that an atheist like me would understand?

Secondly, there will be no evidence "for" Satanism as it is all a big made up story but I am not sure that the evidence for the Christian God via "eye witness accounts" and miracles is that strong. Also beyond being evidence that certain people actually might have existed, the archeological evidence says nothing about the status of Jesus or anyone else in the bible. But I ma sure that this has been dealt with elsewhere so let me not derail the thread.

FWIW, in my view Satanism holds a similar position to all "organised" religion, but I trust that you do not equate atheism with satanism. Atheists are people without a belief in a supernatural god of any type and Satan falls squarely into that category. You cannot impute atheism = satanism becuase we don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god (I'm not saying you were, but some do).

nthdimension

12-03-2007, 11:02 AM

I don't know how many of you have read the black bible, but commercial satanism is just humanism. Basically just please yourself/hedonism.
Well then it isn't humanism.

I appeals to people who wanna live their lifes the way they want to. It’s the same as trying to explain to a 6yr old why they cant just eat candy. Veggies are good for you, although they often don’t taste as nice.
Once we become adults we can destroy ourselves if we wish. It isn't like trying to explain anything to a child.

I'm still waiting for an example of a Christian who even comes close to obeying the teachings of the Bible. I'm also still waiting for a good explanation as to why Christians distorted Jewish beliefs about heaven, hell and the angel that works as a satan in the service of God.

live for yourself (rather atheist)
Not so.

On the other hand, satanism is satanism.
Is it?

All Christians are Jehovah's Witnesses, or was it Christian Scientists? It's all the same.

Satan and his followers prefer to stay hidden and attack all that is good on different levels, because they don't want you to see them coming.
It is a bit pointless to worship an underling that is working for God. Satan is one of God's trusted and obedient servants.

A satanist cannot be "nice" for no reason.
Why?

If the motivation behind doing ANYTHING is something other than love, without expecting anything in return, then rather leave it, if you're a Christian.
Now we return to the real world...

How many Saint <insert satanist name here> Hospitals are there?
What does the arbitray naming of hospitals have to do with anything?

Or outreach programmes?
Very often thinly disguised platforms to increase the number of followers.

nthdimension

12-03-2007, 11:08 AM

Secondly, there will be no evidence "for" Satanism as it is all a big made up story but I am not sure that the evidence for the Christian God via "eye witness accounts" and miracles is that strong. Also beyond being evidence that certain people actually might have existed, the archeological evidence says nothing about the status of Jesus or anyone else in the bible. But I ma sure that this has been dealt with elsewhere so let me not derail the thread.
The evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity are non-existent.

You cannot impute atheism = satanism becuase we don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god (I'm not saying you were, but some do).
As I have discovered it is erroneous to refer to God as being Judeo-Christian. The Christians have completely warped the beliefs held by Judaism such that while the mythology is clearly derived from Judaism it is totally different.

NBC

12-03-2007, 12:03 PM

Firstly, for my information, what type of fear is the fear of God? I.e. what can you equate it to that an atheist like me would understand?

FWIW, in my view Satanism holds a similar position to all "organised" religion, but I trust that you do not equate atheism with satanism. Atheists are people without a belief in a supernatural god of any type and Satan falls squarely into that category. You cannot impute atheism = satanism becuase we don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god (I'm not saying you were, but some do).

Ok, fear of God is not a "scary fear" if I can put it that way. You are not afraid of Him at all. Rather see it as a respectful willingness or awe. I'm sure you know what our arguments and beliefs are, so we are eternally greatful for our salvation through Jesus, so we live our lives as a freed people. Enjoy life to the fullest, but at the same time, sharing our greatfulness, respect and love for God with others. You can equate the "fear of God" to something like having a person you really respect and look up to and of course, love, like your wife/son/brother/freind/etc. Multiply that by infinity. That's right, it cannot be calculated and it's HUGE. It changes people forever, not by rituals or brain washing as some claim, but your own choice. Once you open up, you won't look back, and you'll want to tell everyone about it. It's really awesome.

Not to worry, I'm not saying atheism=satanism! Not at all. I apologise if it came accross that way. I was simply saying that you're either for God or you're not. An atheist doesn't believe in a superior being, right? So it would be pointless to say an atheist is a satanist as well. How can he/she worship something he/she doesn't even believe in? No, I understand where you're coming from and I respect that. But to continue what I said above, to have something unexplainably big to truely believe in, cannot be described in words.
It cannot be gained through deeds, money, knowledge or status. Just acceptance. It's that simple. No one is rejected. :)

NBC

12-03-2007, 01:27 PM

It is a bit pointless to worship an underling that is working for God. Satan is one of God's trusted and obedient servants.

Really? Then what are you arguing for? Why not change this thread to "God rules satan"? That is what you're saying, right?

Mr TB

12-03-2007, 02:42 PM

Really? Then what are you arguing for? Why not change this thread to "God rules satan"? That is what you're saying, right?

IN RESPONSE TO NBC:
( I respond on your post to try and show the other forumites their misconception of fear)

"Fear might be a powerful weapon to you, but it's not of much use against a Christian, I'm afraid"

Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.3.1)
By studying the above thesaurus the 34 entries related to fear will make it possible for the
reader to distinguish between the fear of god and just being afraid...
Secondly the fear that we have for injury or pain or being hurt is one of satan's smallest ways
attacking mankind! On of his most effective weapons is PRIDE!
Read "The Final Quest" written by Rick Warren, it is amazing...

NBC

12-03-2007, 02:52 PM

Very often misunderstood... Thanks for your insight!

noxibox

12-03-2007, 02:58 PM

Nothing like some good hearty satanism to start the day. Everything a growing girl/boy needs.

Beancounter

12-03-2007, 03:10 PM

Ok, fear of God is not a "scary fear" if I can put it that way. You are not afraid of Him at all. Rather see it as a respectful willingness or awe. I'm sure you know what our arguments and beliefs are, so we are eternally greatful for our salvation through Jesus, so we live our lives as a freed people. Enjoy life to the fullest, but at the same time, sharing our greatfulness, respect and love for God with others. You can equate the "fear of God" to something like having a person you really respect and look up to and of course, love, like your wife/son/brother/freind/etc. Multiply that by infinity. That's right, it cannot be calculated and it's HUGE. It changes people forever, not by rituals or brain washing as some claim, but your own choice. Once you open up, you won't look back, and you'll want to tell everyone about it. It's really awesome.

I think that this is the reason why it is pointless arguing the existence or non-existence of God because to try and convince a Christian that there is no such thing is to have them think that it will take away the feeling that you describe.

Ironically, for me, finally "seeing the light" of atheism (read, openly admitting it - I learned what it must be like to be gay and to "come out" ;) ) is also a very refreshing feeling but I would not put it at the apparent level of yours!

Back to Satanism.

noxibox

12-03-2007, 03:23 PM

Mr TB

12-03-2007, 04:43 PM

When fundamentalist Christians use the term fear of God they mean being frightened of what this thing might do if you look at it wrong. Listen to their rhetoric. They aren't talking about love and respect.

Brainwashing is a huge factor. The more effective the brainwashing the more the individual thinks it is their choice or that it comes from some real experience. Religious indoctrination is no different in method to raising your children as racists. As adults such people just are racists. They don't think about it, they just know and experience that other races are inferior.

I have to agree that leaving Christianity behind was like coming out into the light after living a life in darkness.

"Religious indoctrination is no different in method to raising your children as racists."
Atheism teaches people there are no god...correct... the method of indoctrination is obvious teach children there are no god , in other words indoctrinate them with this satanic doctrine of "NO GOD" and you will have a world full of satanists...

Mr TB

12-03-2007, 04:47 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NOXIBOX:

"I have to agree that leaving Christianity behind was like coming out into the light after living a life in darkness"

Which dark religion did you claim to be christianity before you left it behind?

NBC

12-03-2007, 06:01 PM

Ironically, for me, finally "seeing the light" of atheism (read, openly admitting it - I learned what it must be like to be gay and to "come out" ;) ) is also a very refreshing feeling but I would not put it at the apparent level of yours!

I think the problem is more that people go to church their whole lives and never really think about it. You have to come to a point where you renew your thoughts and views either for God or against. I chose the first option and it happened in December, even though I've been a "Christian" my whole life. Remember, Christ was also only baptised once he was a grown man. What I know and feel now, is something totally different.
Which I suppose is the same for the other side of things (atheist or whatever else). Because it's new, it attracts you without scaring you. But one thing I can say for sure, the feeling is truely on a different level than anything else on earth or any drug, without repercussions.

I just cannot see how any other religeon or belief (or lack thereof) can give you that overwhelming, rushing, carefree feeling that grows bigger every second, just wanting to give what you have. It's hard to describe, but it doesn't seem to fit anywhere else but Christianity? I mean, satan apparently lives, but so does God. We are living our lives FOR a living God, not TO. Satan is the King of lies, is he not?

Claymore

12-03-2007, 08:43 PM

Atheism teaches people there are no god...correct... the method of indoctrination is obvious teach children there are no god , in other words indoctrinate them with this satanic doctrine of "NO GOD" and you will have a world full of satanists...

Errr...atheists don't believe in Satan either.

Beancounter

12-03-2007, 09:13 PM

"Religious indoctrination is no different in method to raising your children as racists."
Atheism teaches people there are no god...correct... the method of indoctrination is obvious teach children there are no god , in other words indoctrinate them with this satanic doctrine of "NO GOD" and you will have a world full of satanists...

You cannot teach children that there is no god because they do not believe in god when they are borne. If this were not the case all kids would be Christian unless taught otherwise - clearly not the case.

Atheism is not indoctrination for the simple reason that it is the lack of belief in god and indoctrination implies the teaching of a belief in something.

nthdimension

12-03-2007, 10:13 PM

NBC

13-03-2007, 11:26 AM

The satan invented by the Christian church has no reason to teach that there is no god. This being would have no trouble with anyone knowing that god exists. It would in fact be fundamental that you would know that this being rebelled exist the tyranny of god. How could you even believe in the Christian satan without also believing in the god?

Fristly, from the Christian point of view, there is no such thing as "the Christian satan". satan is the opposing side to Christianity, so it can never be put under the same umbrella. satanists also "believe" in God, by the way. If they did not, what are they opposing? It is generally accepted by most religious people (and forget about the N.T. for now) that, all that is good is from God. Thus, all else would be claimed by satan himself.

The saying "There are always two sides to a story" has much more meaning than one would think. It is impossible for satan to exist without God. That is what he is opposing. The war between God and satan has never been about who is going to win, but who satan is going to drag down with him. He knows he is going to lose in the end, therefore he will do as much damage as possible, while he still can. Again, from a Christian point of view.

Pr⊕phet

13-03-2007, 12:12 PM

NBC. now here where it gets abit 0_o-ish

if God made Lucifer and God itself is all knowing and has a plan with everything - then was there pre-knowledge that Lucifer would 'betray/rebel' and then in the end as christians call it become satan to 'claim' as you say all evil into him ?

if so yes, then in actuality God must have had evil too or is neutral to be able to create Lucifer in such a way and also intently made evil to be there for us...

if all things MUST have 2side story or opposite - then satan/Lucifer couldn't have simply been created and God all ready must have hand an equal or equivalent opposing force - if not God then also must be neutral or both sides at once.
----------------------------------------------------------

you will be bit surprised of not knowing it all ready that some LBRP and Middle pillar and so on is being tought by rabbi's and has no whatsoever connection with a devil/satan but is actually a worship of God, His glory and Kingdom.

as well as some christian rituals is exactly the same as spell casting (prayer), divination (prophecy), grounding, energy raising (prayer/worship) and channeling (speaking tongues), summoning (letting the holy spirit come down) - its just different name but the core still same essence.

...just to mention a few - some are actually dangerous i would say. this mingling with the 'good' spirits in church and so on without proper training before hand.
----------------------------------------------------------

anyways my 1.999c for now ;)

nthdimension

13-03-2007, 01:49 PM

satan is the opposing side to Christianity, so it can never be put under the same umbrella.
Christianity invented the devil. So there is a Christian satan. It simply does not exist in the parent religion.

satanists also "believe" in God, by the way.
What I said.

It is generally accepted by most religious people (and forget about the N.T. for now) that, all that is good is from God.
Most religious people of what religion?

That is what he is opposing. The war between God and satan has never been about who is going to win, but who satan is going to drag down with him.
That is an aspect of Christian mythology. It does not come from the parent religion.

nthdimension

13-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Obviously there is going to be a disagreement about who is good and who is bad. In Christian mythology Lucifer, a Christian invention, is an evil lord trying to wrest control from the benevolent leader. Lucifer, a Christian invention, could equally claim that the leader is a violent despot who must go.

Lucifer/The Devil/Satan was invented by early Christians, either because they were just ignorant of Judaism or perhaps because they saw it as a way to attract more followers. Who knows. It doesn't come from the original scripture that's for sure.

NBC

13-03-2007, 02:40 PM

If you have access to these scriptures, would you paste a few lines contradicting our beliefs?

As I said, my post is from a Christian point of view. I do not believe that early Christians "invented" satan, but the "early scriptures" can possibly prove me wrong.

Pictures of these texts would also do - I can translate in my own time. Use www.photobucket.com to upload.

NBC

13-03-2007, 03:27 PM

Ryuji

I do not fully agree on that, but see your point.

But I must explain here:

Spell casting is not the same as prayer - we ask/give thanks/praise/repent in prayer, the operative word being "ask". Spell casting has a physical component to it as well - using elexirs, charms, reciting, etc. to have an effect on something, usually physical in nature. There are others I know and I might be generalising, but it's not my intension. Prayer, real prayer, is more like a conversation with your Father, we have just forgotten how to listen when He speaks. Spell casting invloves more action and reaction, but prayer involves faith, request, reward. hope I'm explaining it good enough.

Remember the Holy Spirit IS God (Trinity). After you're baptised, you will be filled with the Holy Spirit for life, not just a while. We do not summon It, but ask (in prayer) for it. That was Jesus' promise to us: The Holy Spirit will guide us. We do not seek It to have a direct/physical effect on others, but to be helped in living our lives pure and holy before God, so that others might be helped through our lifestyle and person. So firstly, the Holy Spirit is there to help and guide us, then to help others in whatever need there may be. So it's not the trans-like ryrhmical reciting of spells or ancient texts or to have a physical effect, but see it more as a "dedicated phone line" to God. A way to hear Him we can understand.

But prayer, prohecy, fullfillment of the Holy Spirit, worship and speaking in tongues cannot be understood before accepting Jesus. These are all gifts from the Holy Spirit and there are a few more as well...

About satan though, remember, we were "made in God's image", including a free will. That is what caused satan to be banned from heaven, he CHOSE the other way. And yes, God propably knew it before hand, but because He lets everyone choose for themselves, He did not stop it, but also knew the price to be paid. Why it happened that way, I hope to understand some day.

It's difficult to debate about satan and God, especially because people are SO religiously dedicated (or not), that the issues and questions put forward, usually explode in an emotional outburst, due to a lack of knowledge of the subject, and attempts to convert the other parties. But forums like these are also VERY good practice for someone like me, learning and studying different aspects of the arguments, and I like it, because it strengthens me immensely.

Another thing I'm sure about, is that there will NEVER be consensus among all parties, some will remain FOR, some AGAINST and some NEUTRAL. Funny how everything in life comes down to a choice.

nthdimension

13-03-2007, 04:07 PM

Beancounter

13-03-2007, 04:40 PM

Spell casting is not the same as prayer - we ask/give thanks/praise/repent in prayer, the operative word being "ask". Spell casting has a physical component to it as well - using elexirs, charms, reciting, etc. to have an effect on something, usually physical in nature.

Guys, all this Harry Potter talk is intriguing me. Spell casting??? Please point me in the direction of some spells that have worked without deception or some other psychological mechanism.

Pr⊕phet

13-03-2007, 05:17 PM

thnx NBC. I'll ponder on those - 'ask' is the key word :)

...this isn't Harry Potter talk if you ever have done some ritual magick and i mean the real deal and not the tv crap. you would know,
but for those Harry fantasizers, hec go play in the muddied waters and enjoy.

BUT NBC i can leave you with the LBRP however (one way of doing it i must add)
last time i checked the following has nothing to do with satan/devil
unless however they are multi meanings

Yud-Heh-Vahv-Heh
Ah-Doh-NYE
Eh-Heh-YEH
AH-Glah
Rah-fay-EL
Gahb-Ray-El
Mee-chai-EL
Ohr-ree-EL

noxibox

13-03-2007, 05:19 PM

charms, reciting
Rosaries, crosses, standard prayers repeated over and over. Did I miss something?

Beancounter

13-03-2007, 05:29 PM

...this isn't Harry Potter talk if you ever have done some ritual magick and i mean the real deal and not the tv crap. you would know,
but for those Harry fantasizers, hec go play in the muddied waters and enjoy.

I am genuinely intrigued. Please point me to somewhere on the internet where I can read up on this.

Thanks

Beancounter

13-03-2007, 05:34 PM

Don't bother. Had a look for Magick on Wikipedia.

B0ll0cks

Mr TB

13-03-2007, 07:20 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC:

"Spell casting is not the same as prayer"
Witchcraft is definitely not the same as prayer. Witchcraft is a interfering in an illegal way with a person's will forcing him/her to do something he/she under normal circumstances will not do... Read 1 SAM 15v22 and 23.

Mr TB

13-03-2007, 07:35 PM

A satan as an enemy of God first appears in the new testament. If you want to know more you should spend some time talking to a Rabbi. They can explain how Christianity has hell, heaven and a satan's relationship to God all wrong.

Christians even have the teachings of Jesus about hell completely wrong. Jesus makes it clear that those who are not saved will be destroyed. There is no eternal damnation.

Yes and while you were yapping I listenened to a guy who claimed he was a member of the "order of darkness".
He claims satan wish no-one to know that he exist and that this organisation keep track of every single church in the country...

NBC

13-03-2007, 08:34 PM

Rosaries, crosses, standard prayers repeated over and over. Did I miss something?
This is discussed in another thread, but I did point out that a rosary cross isn't worth anything, and the same goes for the general cross and crucifixes, which is actually a sign/symbol of death and humiliation.

Christians don't need symbols (should actually not even have them) - WE are supposed to be the symbol through living our lives for God. Not by some other sign or symbol. And yes, some people are reciting the same prayer over and over, but that's why it's called reciting. Prayer should be more than that - a CONVERSATION. It should definitely not be a phrase sounding like a broken LP.

Mr TB

13-03-2007, 08:44 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC:

"Christians don't need symbols (should actually not even have them)"

Thanks , Dave Griesel's comment on symbols is basically the same as yours.
I can't comment to loud lately ,the forumites believe me to be very concervative but that is not really the case...

Claymore

13-03-2007, 10:32 PM

Pr⊕phet

13-03-2007, 10:34 PM

Rosaries, crosses, standard prayers repeated over and over. Did I miss something?

3. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Exodus 20:1-17 (New International Version)
Deuteronomy 5:6-21 (New International Version)

???

PeterCH

13-03-2007, 10:52 PM

3. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Exodus 20:1-17 (New International Version)
Deuteronomy 5:6-21 (New International Version)

???

The first commandment forbids the making of graven images "TO ADORE THEM." This is found in the Book of Exodus, where we read:

"Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them."
By this we are forbidden to make images to take the place of God, or to adore them, or serve them. This is the sin of idolatry.
That it was NOT the intention of God to forbid the use of images is evident from the fact that the same inspired writer, in Exodus 25, commands the Jews to make two golden cherubims for the ark of the covenant in the temple. Likewise, in the Book of Numbers, God commanded Moses to make a brazen serpent, so that the Jews might look upon it and be saved from the attack of the fiery serpent.

Therefore, images are forbidden ONLY it we attribute to them a power that belongs to God alone, or if we worship them as gods.

"Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle." Ex. 25:18.

"And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign; whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live." Num. 21:8
Why do we use pictures and images?
We use pictures and images: (a) To remind us of the virtues of the particular saint, or of the Blessed Mother;
(b) To remind us that we should imitate their virtues;
(c) To help us concentrate on our prayers;
(d) To honor that particular saint, or the Blessed Mother, who are God's heroes.

NBC

14-03-2007, 08:42 AM

Well, prayer and spellcasting are equally efficacious.
Prayer is way more powerful than any spell.

In response to PeterCH:

I tend to disagree. The first part says that we shall not HAVE strange gods BEFORE Him. Yes, it goes on to explain what we also shouldn't do with them, but firstly, we shouldn't have them. That includes (most) symbols. So it doesn't really matter whether you worhip/adore them or not, you already idolised them by covering them in gold and silver (paying for it with money). Herewith I'm not saying that a portrait/painting of e.g. Mother Mary is wrong.

Remember, this was all in the old testament. They did not have the Holy Spirit with them and Jesus has not freed us from the strongholds of sin yet. We now have the power to break any evil, just because of that. Nobody in the old testament (except for a few trusted servants) could speak for God in authority. And one very important thing on the serpent they made: that is also an instruction from God, given to them for pretection of their flesh. The serpent mentioned in Numbers, are snakes - if any man were to be bitten by a snake, he could simply look upon the bronze serpent on the pole and be healed. (Remeber also that serpents are common in the desert). The Holy Spirit does that today, using us, instead of symbols or idols.

Pr⊕phet

14-03-2007, 08:53 AM

interesting. then whats this spirit then doing in the OT ?

The Holy Spirit In The Old Testament?

* "In the beginning God Created The Heavens And The Earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2)

* "So Pharaoh [see also The Ancient Egyptians] asked them, "Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is The Spirit of God?" Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, "Since God has made all this known to you, there is no one so discerning and wise as you." (Genesis 41:38-39)

* "The Lord said to Moses, "Bring Me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to The Tent Of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of The Spirit that is on you and put The Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so you will not have to carry it alone." (Numbers 11:16-17)

* "So The Lord said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is The Spirit, and lay your hand on him." (Numbers 27:18) (see The Fall Of Jericho)

* "The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and The Lord blessed him, and The Spirit of The Lord began to stir him..." (Judges 13:24-25)

* "The Spirit of The Lord will come upon you [Saul] in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." (1 Samuel 10:6)

* "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on The Spirit of The Lord came upon David in power." (1 Samuel 16:13)

* "The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of The Almighty gives me life." (Job 33:4)

* "When you send Your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." (Psalm 104:30)

* "Surely your God is The God of gods and The Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery ... I know that The Spirit of The Holy God is in you." (Daniel 2:47, 4:9) (See Daniel's Statue from our Prophecy section.)

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/holyspir.htm

Pr⊕phet

14-03-2007, 09:03 AM

hmmk:
Christian Wicca
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca

and btw, the pentagram as it is was also widely used by the church/christians before it was also deemed as evil

Early Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ and from then until medieval times, it was a lesser-used Christian symbol. Prior to the time of the Inquisition, there were no 'evil' associations to the pentagram. Rather it was a form that implied Truth, religious mysticism and the work of The Creator

NBC

14-03-2007, 09:41 AM

I agree that the Holy Spirit was present in the O.T., but as I said, only a few chosen servants had that the authority to make decrees and be able to have the Holy Spirit work through them. As I see it, in the O.T., you were chosen by God. Today, anyone can ask for it, and he will receive it. That's the biggest difference.

You are quite quick with your references, good job!

BCO

14-03-2007, 09:42 AM

Prayer is way more powerful than any spell.

O rly? I'm still waiting for one shred of evidence that a prayer has ever achieved anything.

NBC

14-03-2007, 09:46 AM

O rly? I'm still waiting for one shred of evidence that a prayer has ever achieved anything.

You should read more...

BCO

14-03-2007, 09:48 AM

Read what?

If you say the bible I'm gonna shoot myself.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 09:48 AM

interesting. then whats this spirit then doing in the OT ?

The Holy Spirit In The Old Testament?

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/holyspir.htm

I don't know on who's quote you actually responded, but it is the HOLY SPIRIT indeed. The question RYUJI can you show me where I find JESUS in the O/T?

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 09:50 AM

Read what?

If you say the bible I'm gonna shoot myself.

If you shoot yourself you will be standing in front of JESUS , think twice...

NBC

14-03-2007, 09:54 AM

Read what?

If you say the bible I'm gonna shoot myself.

Anything focusing on prayer to God. The Bible won't help at all, because you don't believe it.

It's not just the Bible, but modern day accounts that you need to research - there are hundreds of thousands.

BCO

14-03-2007, 10:03 AM

NBC

14-03-2007, 10:12 AM

I didn't say "modern day accounts", I said "evidence". Show me one empirical study that shows prayer to be an effective tool.

I believe the Templeton Foundation commissioned such a study. But the results showed nothing.

I have heaped up evidence in previous posts and even mentioned a miracle (one of many) I saw, but not even one comment about that. You just keep asking for more, why? It doesn't always have to be a huge fireworks show.

In light of my previous posts, you can rather supply me with "empirical" evidence that prayer doesn't do anything. And I'm not asking for instances where the answer to a prayer was no.

The way you ask for evidence - if modern day accounts, people from our time, is not enough to just make you wonder, and if some have been documented, what would you believe?? Seems you don't even trust anyone...

noxibox

14-03-2007, 10:13 AM

Prayer has not been shown to be effective.

BCO

14-03-2007, 10:38 AM

This is what I mean by evidence, or in these cases, the utter lack of evidence.

Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks.... researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/ap_060330_prayer.html)

in the Duke University study, the researchers studied 748 patients who were undergoing heart procedures such as angioplasty or cardiac catheterization.... Over a six-month period, the study found no difference in serious side effects, death rate, or readmissions between the patients who had received prayers and those who did not. (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/health_science/articles/2005/07/25/a_prayer_for_health/?page=2)

In a large and much touted scientific study, one group of patients was told that strangers would pray for them, a second group was told strangers might or might not pray for them, and a third group was not prayed for at all. The $2.4 million study found that the strangers' prayers did not help patients' recovery.

The results of the study, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, came as welcome news. That may sound odd coming from an ordained minister. But if it could ever be persuasively demonstrated that such prayer "works," our religious institutions and meeting places would be degraded to a kind of commercial enterprise, like Burger King, where one expects to get what one pays for. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/opinion/11lawrence.html?ex=1302408000&en=643ff6eac0f51086&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)

NBC

14-03-2007, 11:42 AM

NBC

14-03-2007, 11:43 AM

Prayer has not been shown to be effective.
Miracles are ALWAYS accompanied by prayer.

BCO

14-03-2007, 11:58 AM

And here's a link to proof that it does work:

http://1stholistic.com/Prayer/hol_prayer_proof.htm

Pasting all of it would get this post deleted.

Take me on again after reading AT LEAST that page. Yours is interesting I'll admit, but remember (Christians as well!), there is much more than just praying "Please God, heal his/her sickness". It's not a quick fix for everything.

Here's a rebuttal by Victor J. Stenger-professor emeritus of physics and astronomy at the University of Hawaii:

Dossey is incorrect in his interpretation of the statistical significance of these experimental results, making a common mistake one finds in many papers and books (http://www.csicop.org/sb/2001-12/reality-check.html)

The same can be said for all the intercessory prayer studies that have been published in medical journals, accompanied by great media hype. For example, cardiologist Randolph Byrd has claimed evidence that coronary patients benefitted from blind, distant intercessory prayer. But his p-value is only five percent.3 Such results would be expected from statistical fluctuations alone every twenty experiments, on average.

NBC

14-03-2007, 12:17 PM

I'll take it in good faith that you're a fast reader.

We can kill this thread by posting links and quotes, one trying to disprove the other. That's hardly the point. I have tons more, but it won't convince anyone, especially not you, would it?

Ultimately, Christians can turn to the Bible for truth, and yes, prayer. Where do other people turn to? And atheists? How would you know if someone lied, for instance? If he/she is a liar by profession? It will be difficult, I assure you, and there are lots of them.

I am just wondering, I have told of a dismembered person (no arms or legs) being healed instantly (after 90 minutes of prayer, btw), and no one says a word. Something more personal: I used to be an alcoholic (12 years), and from 15 March 2006, I have quit drinking completely. Not one drop. How? Someone else prayed for me. No AA meeting, no medication, no doctor, no institute, but PRAYER. And the best part of it: I did not even know about it. I was told afterwards. The night before I finished 2 bottles of good wine by myself and the next day, the urge to have a drink did not come back. Ever. Tomorrow it will be a year and I don't even miss it.

Explain.

Claymore

14-03-2007, 12:18 PM

Prayer is way more powerful than any spell.

No matter how you look at it, you're not going to make 0 > 0.

NBC

14-03-2007, 12:23 PM

No matter how you look at it, you're not going to make 0 > 0.
The issue is how you look at it...

BCO

14-03-2007, 12:28 PM

I am a fast reader, yes.

As I said earlier, NBC. I simply cannot accept anecdotal evidence for any grand claim, on any issue.

The assertions about the nature of the universe that I choose to believe are those based on scientific evidence.

The story about your recovery from alcoholism is interesting, and I'm glad you had a painless recovery, but it proves nothing about the power of prayer.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 12:28 PM

This is what I mean by evidence, or in these cases, the utter lack of evidence.

God is the almighty God and he laugh at the ones that try to force him to show up.

The non-religious will not get God to show? , can't they understand that?

God shows up where there is faith, not unbelieve.
God shows up when he is ready to destroy the unbeliever, that happened on mount Karmel with Baal's prophets.
Yes be glad he does not show up when you are looking for your empirical evidence....!

You talk body, soul, mind or body,soul,spirit or body ,mind, spirit. The interesting thing is the book the owners manual that tells me about these 3, you despise it!... how foolish can mankind not be!!!

BCO

14-03-2007, 12:31 PM

God is the almighty God and he laugh at the ones that try to force him to show up.

The non-religious will not get God to show? , can't they understand that?

God shows up where there is faith, not unbelieve.
God shows up when he is ready to destroy the unbeliever, that happened on mount Karmel with Baal's prophets.
Yes be glad he does not show up when you are looking for your empirical evidence....!

You talk body, soul, mind or body,soul,spirit or body ,mind, spirit. The interesting thing is the book the owners manual that tells me about these 3, you despise it!... how foolish can mankind not be!!!

yeesh. Dodo, rather let NBC do the talking.

NBC

14-03-2007, 12:36 PM

I think the other problem with people struggeling to believe is the fear of trust. They cannot just have a little faith in another person, let alone somebody from 2000 years ago.

May I ask why you cannot accept somebody's testimony about instances that radical? Are we as Christians missing something? The reports/papers people read to disprove Christianity, were also compiled by human beings that either witnessed the studies, or wrote it themselves, not true? I'm asking in all honesty, why is it so difficult for you to believe the same sort of witness accounts (like the ones I mentioned)? We are all humans?

I would really appreciate if you could shed some light here...

icyrus

14-03-2007, 12:46 PM

BCO

14-03-2007, 12:47 PM

To be frank, I don't trust you half as much as I trust, say, an acedemic research paper where a number of screening procedures need to occur before the paper gets published.

Who is this NBC? Some name on a chat forum. You could be a complete wacko, how would I know? Further, I do know that you have a Christian agenda, which further skews what you say. Sorry mate, but if it's your word vs a published scientist in a respected publication I will always go with the latter.

Claymore

14-03-2007, 12:52 PM

Ultimately, Christians can turn to the Bible for truth, and yes, prayer. Where do other people turn to? And atheists? How would you know if someone lied, for instance? If he/she is a liar by profession? It will be difficult, I assure you, and there are lots of them.

What does lying have to do with prayer? Do you pray for truth? As for me, I work on the basis of human motivation, and standard lie detection techniques.

I am just wondering, I have told of a dismembered person (no arms or legs) being healed instantly (after 90 minutes of prayer, btw), and no one says a word.

I would love to see before and after pics of this.

PostmanPot

14-03-2007, 12:55 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC

Jews and Muslims have no faith in Jesus, yet they still have 'relationships with God'. In other words, they have relationships without accepting Jesus Christ.

Explain.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:00 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC:

"why is it so difficult for you to believe the same sort of witness accounts "

Somewhere in the N/T PAUL talks about itching ears, meaning the things preached are not the things the people actually want to hear.
Those people will then gather around the teachers that preaches the things they want to hear.
The situation today is similar than the one PAUL was experiencing, his teachings was abolished and the teachings that people find nice on the ear was accepted.
No one wants the Jesus of the bible now they try invent their own Jesus...

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:02 PM

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:03 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC

Jews and Muslims have no faith in Jesus, yet they still have 'relationships with God'. In other words, they have relationships without accepting Jesus Christ.

Explain.
They think they have one...

Claymore

14-03-2007, 01:04 PM

The issue is how you look at it...

Well, I see prayer and magic as being equally effective, i.e. not at all.

BCO

14-03-2007, 01:04 PM

That is the very reason none of the forumites is to be trusted with their arguments because what hidden agenda may such person have?

You're failing to see the distinction between arguments based on accepted scientific evidence, and arguments based on anecdotal claims.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:07 PM

Their is only one God.
Three persons-Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Denying Jesus is denying God...

Claymore

14-03-2007, 01:09 PM

I'm asking in all honesty, why is it so difficult for you to believe the same sort of witness accounts (like the ones I mentioned)?

For much the same reason that I don't believe witnesses who think magicians do "real" magic; magicians are in the business of misdirecting people, much like "faith healers" are in the business of deceiving people.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:10 PM

You're failing to see the distinction between arguments based on accepted scientific evidence, and arguments based on anecdotal claims.

Is x-rays anecdotal claims?, or are x-ray machines crooked?

In other words doctors use technology to enrich themselves...

BCO

14-03-2007, 01:11 PM

Is x-rays anecdotal claims?, or are x-ray machines crooked?

In other words doctors use technology to enrich themselves...

heh?

icyrus

14-03-2007, 01:11 PM

Their is only one God.
Three persons-Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Denying Jesus is denying God...

Why or why did you change your nick? Be honest, stick to what you believe in and keep one nickname. In the meantime you are just waisting space on my ignore list.

ghoti

14-03-2007, 01:13 PM

Their is only one God.
Three persons-Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Denying Jesus is denying God...

Is that one God or three? Is god schizophrenic then? Are you a monotheist or a polytheist? Why does God need to come in 3 parts?

PS, Deny Jesus is not denying God, you might want to have a look at that first commandment again. You confuse the hell outta me. You biatch when anyone says anything about your Jesus Christ and your religion, but instantly assume all other religions are incorrect and false.

Sorry if I have no respect for bigots.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 01:14 PM

Well, I see prayer and magic as being equally effective, i.e. not at all.
You don't understand the spiritual world brother... go on get involved in it so that can see the supernatural indeed exist...

Beancounter

14-03-2007, 01:38 PM

I am just wondering, I have told of a dismembered person (no arms or legs) being healed instantly (after 90 minutes of prayer, btw), and no one says a word.

:eek: please post a link to this.

Something more personal: I used to be an alcoholic (12 years), and from 15 March 2006, I have quit drinking completely. Not one drop. How? Someone else prayed for me. No AA meeting, no medication, no doctor, no institute, but PRAYER. And the best part of it: I did not even know about it. I was told afterwards. The night before I finished 2 bottles of good wine by myself and the next day, the urge to have a drink did not come back. Ever. Tomorrow it will be a year and I don't even miss it.

Explain.

Very glad you got over that NBC but coincidence is as likely an explanation. I have heard similar stories from friends regarding smoking and prayer had nothing to do with it.

NBC

14-03-2007, 02:02 PM

A lot of these papers on evidencence (for and against Christianity) were compiled by people (usually a team of scientists or archeologists) we don't even know. I'll tell you openly, I also don't believe everything I read, because as you rightly said, BlueCollar, there are a lot of wacko guys out there and some do even call themselves Christians...

But one thing I can tell you also, is that I honestly did not come here with an agenda - really. I saw this topic and thought it might be a great learning opportunity, and it still is. Despite warnings to leave it alone, I posted a few comments and look how many pages there are. It's really interesting to see the opinions and convictions of other people. Some strange, some good, some bad, but intriguing none the less. And instead of causing doubt, it strengthened my belief even more, believe it or not. It's hard to explain.

Is that one God or three? Is god schizophrenic then? Are you a monotheist or a polytheist? Why does God need to come in 3 parts?

PS, Deny Jesus is not denying God, you might want to have a look at that first commandment again. You confuse the hell outta me. You biatch when anyone says anything about your Jesus Christ and your religion, but instantly assume all other religions are incorrect and false.

Sorry if I have no respect for bigots.
There is one God. He is a trinity, but one essence/identity.

The first commandment says:"Do not have any gods before Me. Do not represent (such gods) by any carved statue or picture or anything in the heaven above or the earth below or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to or worship them." See http://www.bibletexts.com/terms/10commandments-texts.htm for a complete guide with cross references if you do not agree on the translation.

BTW, the thing that differentiates us from the Jews is the fact that we believe in Christ. We are freed from the curse of the law of Moses. Radical statement? Read Matt. 22:37-40. The whole law of Moses/10 commandments is contained in those 4 verses. If you do just 2 things, the rest will automatically be part of your day to day life. Simple as that.

:eek: please post a link to this.

Very glad you got over that NBC but coincidence is as likely an explanation. I have heard similar stories from friends regarding smoking and prayer had nothing to do with it.

I'll see what I can do about a link.

Even non-religious people sometimes have the saying: "Everything happens for a reason". Or some believe in evolution, or some rely on faith. If you believe in evolution, for example, stuff evolves, measurable to some degree, like the big bang theory. Then coincidence is not the best of options. I could argue, for instance, that if scientists are able to go back millions of years in time and space to prove the big bang story, or to prove that life exists on other planets, how about just 2000 years? It shoudn't be that difficult. They used math, a lot of If...THEN...ELSE, theory, and the argument was FOR such a theory (the old SUPPOSE.... approach). But they also haven't seen squat, but the world eats it all up for truth, because they are "highly qualified people", or an "expert in the field".

But if your argument is for coincidence, there is an ocean of them in my life.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 02:40 PM

IN RESPONSE TO W1ZARD:

"Originally Posted by w1z4rd
Is that one God or three? Is god schizophrenic then? Are you a monotheist or a polytheist? Why does God need to come in 3 parts?"

Father is God . Jesus is God. Holy Spirit is God. Equal in status, denying any of the persons is denying God. Read Deut 6v4&5

My translation:
Listen O Israel , the father, the son and the holy spirit are one!

God was in the desert with the Jews, the cloud and fire column guiding them, empirical evidence, still they deserted him...

You are indeed nothing better than them... that is why faith is an important ingredient of christianity...

Claymore

14-03-2007, 03:04 PM

You don't understand the spiritual world brother... go on get involved in it so that can see the supernatural indeed exist...

I first want evidence, any evidence, that supernatural stuff exists.

PostmanPot

14-03-2007, 03:16 PM

They think they have one...

The irony screams out, racist biggot.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 04:02 PM

icyrus

14-03-2007, 04:11 PM

IN RESPONSE TO POSTMANPOT:

The norm is that you are aware of certain terms, like "racist biggot" in your own language because you are labeled as one...

Read the biography of Bilquis Sheik... The book's name is "I dared to call him father." At age 54 she asked God which one is his word, the Quran or the Bible.
He gave her an answer...

Preaching the GOD of CHRISTIANITY is not being racist, its telling the truth...

I can't possibly take any more of this stupid idiot's preaching. Ignore list time for you, and please try have a little honestly in your life and don't change your nickname again just because everyone has blocked you.

Pr⊕phet

14-03-2007, 04:34 PM

like bibles in a hour glass, so are the days of our religions...

lol ;)

....so much for ignore if every one keeps on quoting him.

anyways. at least NBC is contributing to a healthy debate and all - thanx. (whether or not we share believes)

NBC

14-03-2007, 04:58 PM

I appreciate that, Ryuji, thank you.

fivelza

14-03-2007, 06:22 PM

Preaching the GOD of CHRISTIANITY is not being racist, its telling the truth...

But it is not everyone's truth TB, accept that.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 08:32 PM

But it is not everyone's truth TB, accept that.

I don't know what your age is, or what your viewpoint is considering children.

What you say is true but look at he following scenario:

Your brother comes to you with a 9mm pistol, tell you he is on his way to shoot his mother, who of course is also your mother...

Are you going to try and stop or convince him not to do it?

If you are going to do any of what i mentioned why are you willing to let others accept a lie? It will cost them their lives in eternity...

Rex Regis

14-03-2007, 08:38 PM

I don't know what your age is, or what your viewpoint is considering children.

What you say is true but look at he following scenario:

Your brother comes to you with a 9mm pistol, tell you he is on his way to shoot his mother, who of course is also your mother...

Are you going to try and stop or convince him not to do it?

If you are going to do any of what i mentioned why are you willing to let others accept a lie? It will cost them their lives in eternity...

I struggle to understand your example TB explain please

BCO

14-03-2007, 08:51 PM

Keep off the crack.

icyrus

14-03-2007, 09:01 PM

I struggle to understand your example TB explain please

I can explain: our friend dodo is a prime example of the dangers of crystal meth.

Mr TB

14-03-2007, 09:27 PM

I struggle to understand your example TB explain please

You will certainly prevent your brother or at least try and prevent your brother from killing mother will you not?

I will indeed tell people the truth, even if they find it despicable, trying to prevent them from accepting lies as truth otherwise they end in the lake of fire...

No i don't carry a T-shirt saying pick Jesus otherwise you will end up in hell. I am not a fundamentalist, but their are basics in the bible on which the N/T church is built, if you don't believe them you are not in the will of GOD.
I choose Jesus Christ because he first loved me...

Beancounter

14-03-2007, 09:39 PM

You will certainly prevent your brother or at least try and prevent your brother from killing mother will you not?

I will indeed tell people the truth, even if they find it despicable, trying to prevent them from accepting lies as truth otherwise they end in the lake of fire...

I am not sure that your analogy is particularly strong. If my brother shoots my mum I know what will happen because I have seen the results of shootings and I know that pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is a physical act that has physical consequences.

Sadly there is no such evidence for heaven/hell/damnation or any other form of afterlife.

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 08:31 AM

I am not sure that your analogy is particularly strong. If my brother shoots my mum I know what will happen because I have seen the results of shootings and I know that pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is a physical act that has physical consequences.

Sadly there is no such evidence for heaven/hell/damnation or any other form of afterlife.

The analogy :"will you try and prevent your brother from executing your mom"
Looking at the way you ducked the question it seems to me that it does not really matter to you...

Physical acts have physical consequences but you are spirit too...and
Spiritual acts have spiritual consequences, that is the second death...

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 09:31 AM

IN RESPONSE TO BEANCOUNTER:

There is no evidence as you say, those who saw god did not respond, then they killed the prophets, why will evidence make a difference now? We are still human beings...

"Sadly there is no such evidence for heaven/hell/damnation or any other form of afterlife."

To confirm my point read the parable of the poor man lying in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man that was burning in hell...

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 09:51 AM

I will make a last remark on my own, every single thing you have you received by the grace of God.
You did not have to ask him for it, but still you are turning him down.

You don't believe because you did not pray to get your tummies filled with food, God gave it to you out of grace and you spit in his face.

GRACE means favor you do not deserve, yes, you do not deserve what you get...

BCO

15-03-2007, 09:59 AM

IN RESPONSE TO MR TB:

tldr

[OUPA]MrNutz

15-03-2007, 10:00 AM

BEANCOUNTER:

http://home.tiscali.nl/~tdruiter/heavenhell.htm

saw this on TBN

noxibox

15-03-2007, 10:25 AM

A probable hoax. There is no evidence he was ever dead.

Nick333

15-03-2007, 10:37 AM

MrNutz;932689']BEANCOUNTER:

http://home.tiscali.nl/~tdruiter/heavenhell.htm

saw this on TBN

The Truth Is Out There (http://www.iwasabducted.com/vidimagic/)

Saw this on google about 2 minutes ago.

Beancounter

15-03-2007, 10:41 AM

MrNutz;932689']BEANCOUNTER:

http://home.tiscali.nl/~tdruiter/heavenhell.htm

saw this on TBN

It's a hoax

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ekechart.html

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 12:54 PM

A probable hoax. There is no evidence he was ever dead.

It is actually great that one of you picked up the so-called hoax.
I know about it and knew you will just laugh about it.
God turned down the request of the rich man is correct? on the basis that no one will believe in any case...
Well what I did not pick up in text is the following:
Daniel was also told, while in paradise, God is now indeed complying with the request of rich man. Sending someone, he Daniel to warn people about hell.

Your response NOXIBOX exactly as predicted by God, unbelieve. Sorry pal that is one of the very reasons i trust God, he knows mankind...

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 01:02 PM

IN RESPONSE TO MR TB:

tldr

Yeah, none of us like the truth... it hurts...once again friend if it was not for grace, undeserved favor from god you would wish you could rather die...

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 01:13 PM

It's a hoax

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/ekechart.html

I can not really see how you can use information from a site like letusreason, they also show clear deception by those following evolution...am i right?

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 01:27 PM

IN RESPONSE TO BEANCOUNTER:

The site LETUSREASON also confirm that evolution is a hoax a deception, please read...

Emergence from nothing- Self creation springs into existence, which requires existence of something before it can exist. Nothing cannot create itself. Out of nothing, nothing comes. An effect cannot be greater than its cause -- and in this case the cause would be nothing. One of the basic laws of physics is expressed by the Latin phrase ex nihilo, nihil fit "from nothing, nothing comes." It's a tremendous leap of faith to believe that the universe with all its intricacies emerged from nothing and put things in just like something would that has intelligence. The atheist is not supposed to have any faith which is exactly what he is exhibiting if he believes this. Both Science, logic and life all show that life does not originate from non life. This is supernaturalism and cannot be proven scientifically because it cannot be repeated to be verifiable. If there was ever a time when nothing existed what would have had that change? There must have been something foreign introduced to make the change, which means something existed. Something had to be self existent and it is either God or matter. It cannot be matter since we know from science it it has a timeline. For something to create itself, it would have to exist before it was created, and that is completely absurd. Something cannot both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way. Concluding that the world created or caused itself is simply not rationale. But it is an acceptable alternative to God creating it. When scientists say 15-20 billion years ago the universe exploded into being they are saying it went from non being to being, all this by chance. One cannot have an explosion without mixing 2 properties together. Again the 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts this saying energy cannot be created or destroyed it only changes form. To have an effect without a cause is to deny the scientific data we have today. This denies everything we have learned and proven about reality, this becomes a non religious philosophy that needs more faith than what Christianity proposes.

ghoti

15-03-2007, 01:44 PM

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 02:41 PM

This 'Christian' site tells me that tampons are Satans cotton fingers:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0999/cotton.html

Is that right?

I am not sure , is lillet type of fingers, those small ones with long strings that apparently absorbs better than the thicker ones longer and more cotton like, which do you think?

ghoti

15-03-2007, 02:51 PM

I am not sure , is lillet type of fingers, those small ones with long strings that apparently absorbs better than the thicker ones longer and more cotton like, which do you think?

I am just asking you if that article is a christian point of view :) yes? no?

NBC

15-03-2007, 02:56 PM

Mr TB and whoever else wants to pay attention:

Stay away from obvious crack pots like www.landoverbaptist.org. That is a load of rubbish (cotton tampons). Are these guys for real?!

Look at the twisted ads on the sides! Who puts up claims like "God told me to hate you"? God specifically tells you not to hate! These people are false, no matter who says what. The poor taste, misconceptions and bad info are definitely not from God.

ghoti

15-03-2007, 05:21 PM

noxibox

15-03-2007, 06:41 PM

I was not happy when I accepted Jesus and did not get my PS2. Switched to Satan and the PS2 was delivered immediately. I think Jesus has a service delivery problem.

Debbie

15-03-2007, 06:48 PM

Is satanism still good for us?

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 07:43 PM

I know they are false. Just like I know the links that Mr TB and Prom quote from are false. Not very nice is it?

Don't worry NBC providing this types of links only shows the mentality of the characters you are dealing with.
It also places a huge question mark on what they stand for.
In my opinion trying to debate using this type of tactics is dispicable.
I believe however that we in the christian community came to terms with that and actually expect that from the non-religious.
I just bombard them with truth which they are unable to handle...

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 07:48 PM

I was not happy when I accepted Jesus and did not get my PS2. Switched to Satan and the PS2 was delivered immediately. I think Jesus has a service delivery problem.

If you switch to Jesus to get a PS2, you switched for the wrong reasons. He wanted to deliver much more...eternal life :D

Satan don't mind the PS2, he has your spirit to torture for eternity....:D

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 07:52 PM

I am just asking you if that article is a christian point of view :) yes? no?

How do you want me to view this... are pads satan's tongue?

ghoti

15-03-2007, 08:21 PM

Don't worry NBC providing this types of links only shows the mentality of the characters you are dealing with.
It also places a huge question mark on what they stand for.
In my opinion trying to debate using this type of tactics is dispicable.
I believe however that we in the christian community came to terms with that and actually expect that from the non-religious.
I just bombard them with truth which they are unable to handle...

Ja nee... I feel sorry for those in your life mate. I am off to play some bf2. Later.

Mr TB

15-03-2007, 08:38 PM

Ja nee... I feel sorry for those in your life mate. I am off to play some bf2. Later.

Moenie, you are wasting your feelings...koebaai...

Syndyre

15-03-2007, 09:00 PM

I was not happy when I accepted Jesus and did not get my PS2. Switched to Satan and the PS2 was delivered immediately. I think Jesus has a service delivery problem.

Maybe Jesus needs a new logistics manager, Judas just isn't cutting it anymore. :D

Pr⊕phet

15-03-2007, 10:36 PM

Debbie2 - depends on who you ask.

i would venture that there is some paths in satanism that needs a new look at them with less pre-taught horror stories...

...since everything that is not of christian easily gets deemed as being evil, devil and satan - those christians that way back used the pentagram allot would they be called satanists, heretics or both today?

makes me think on this Saint Lucifer thing again...
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=63434

NBC

16-03-2007, 06:37 AM

Pr⊕phet

16-03-2007, 08:04 AM

Jeepers, I saw a couple of things there that made my hair stand up. Reading anything on that sight is wasting time, besides, God doesn't use things like PS2s to convince you. That's against everything He promises (O.T. and N.T.).

Satanism isn't good for anyone, but then again, depends on who you ask, like Ryuji said.

Don't see much argument or evidence supporting it, though, lol.

suppose so ;)

then you have to ask yourself WHY would people want to go that route anyways...

to be a rebel ?
different ?
part of something ?

...fear of something is there for a reason, either its their to keep us away from it because it can potentially cause harm or those who put the fear in us wanted it to be there that we should not cross the line and leave them.

noxibox

16-03-2007, 09:01 AM

those who put the fear in us wanted it to be there that we should not cross the line and leave them.
You've hit the nail right on the head.

NBC

16-03-2007, 03:23 PM

Then the roles of God and satan would be the same (at least), or reversed, (least likely), which makes this debate pointless, really.

No, Ryuji, I think and believe your first statement about fear is correct. But you actually shouldn't fear anything. :D

ghoti

16-03-2007, 04:05 PM

Jeepers, I saw a couple of things there that made my hair stand up. Reading anything on that sight is wasting time, besides, God doesn't use things like PS2s to convince you. That's against everything He promises (O.T. and N.T.).

Exactly. Now you know how it feels when people like MrTB aka dodo and Prom quote from pseudoscience resources as "sources" for their argument. The sites they are quoting from are false and misleading, same as landoverbapstist.org . However the scary thing about all of this, is that neither Prom or dodo will pick up on the analogy I just used. Which would make them perfect little Landover Baptists.

Mr TB

16-03-2007, 04:20 PM

Exactly. Now you know how it feels when people like MrTB aka dodo and Prom quote from pseudoscience resources as "sources" for their argument. The sites they are quoting from are false and misleading, same as landoverbapstist.org . However the scary thing about all of this, is that neither Prom or dodo will pick up on the analogy I just used. Which would make them perfect little Landover Baptists.

Oh yes NBC and the sites they link contain perfect information. You can not argue with them.

If you ask any of the non-religious forumites their first reaction is. It is on you to prove I am wrong, not for me to show I am right.

Vice versa, it is expected from the christian to prove his side, they don't have to prove us wrong.
In that way there is not any responsibility on the non-religious to prove anything they say. They can just shoot down what you say.

Explanations for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra has been called lies, although the logic caught them off side, Jesus gets the glory for that.
Prove in the discussion concerning homosexuality came to the front, the forumites turned it down. DouwDouw did a job on NEO, he won't accept it but the glory go to Jesus.

ghoti

16-03-2007, 04:21 PM

However the scary thing about all of this, is that neither Prom or dodo will pick up on the analogy

Just as I said.

By using dodo logic, the Landover Baptist site is a real site :)

Mr TB

16-03-2007, 07:31 PM

Just as I said.

By using dodo logic, the Landover Baptist site is a real site :)

By using wizard's secular knowledge you find the non-religious forumites may misquote what you typed, not pasting the full sentence typed by you. You should be watching for this action by the non-religious, the perversion of text.

They will then do everything possible trying to convince other forumites their are nothing wrong with their actions, should it be pointed out as a lie.

The non-religious also like to pull out stats concerning 50 million people killed in the name of christ over a period of 1200 yrs. Forgetting that in the last century only the non-religious committed 100 million murders.A comparison rate of 1:24.

Prove that as evolution gains ground so does the value of human life deteriorate...
Hopefully wizard you indeed understand the analogy...

Claymore

16-03-2007, 07:45 PM

Prove that as evolution gains ground so does the value of human life deteriorate...

You mean, as technology improves, it becomes easier to kill masses of people.

Gorillas and apes commit genocide too. They're just not very good at it, unlike us humans.

ghoti

16-03-2007, 07:51 PM

Prove that as evolution gains ground so does the value of human life deteriorate...
Hopefully wizard you indeed understand the analogy...

Ok, but first you need to find out what the word 'analogy' means, and then re-ask this question so I can understand you.

Mr TB

16-03-2007, 08:27 PM

You mean, as technology improves, it becomes easier to kill masses of people.

Gorillas and apes commit genocide too. They're just not very good at it, unlike us humans.

"You mean, as technology improves, it becomes easier to kill masses of people."

That is quite an interesting comment and the non-religious made great use of the improvements,as a ratio 1:24 show. Quickly getting rid of those who may teach the gospel true?

If you can't grasp the ratio, for one killed by the so-called religious on a day, the non-religious accounted for 24 murders...day/hour rate...

Mr TB

16-03-2007, 08:46 PM

Ok, but first you need to find out what the word 'analogy' means, and then re-ask this question so I can understand you.

I did not ask you a question as far as I am concerned.

"analogy is when two different things share characteristics that lead to a comparison between them; an analogue is one of the things compared"

ANALOGY

ToxicBunny

16-03-2007, 09:40 PM

Where did you suck this 1:24 ratio from?

Claymore

17-03-2007, 08:37 AM

If you can't grasp the ratio, for one killed by the so-called religious on a day, the non-religious accounted for 24 murders...day/hour rate...

Reference please.

ToxicBunny

17-03-2007, 08:46 AM

I must say its a very neat ratio,

Religious ppl kill once a day, whereas the atheist-heathen-pagan-sonsofthedevil kill once an hour....

I like symmetry like that, very nice.....

BCO

17-03-2007, 09:51 AM

NBC, Fivelza and others... I extend my deepest sympathy to you for having to be associated with the likes of MrTB/DouwDouw - he/they really go a long way to tarnishing the reputation of Christianity.

Mr TB, it's laughable that you're unaware of the damage you're doing to your religion's (already questionable) credibility. Do your Christian brothers like NBC a favour, and stfu already. You're a crackpot, my friend. Sorry to say it.

snapdragon

17-03-2007, 10:41 AM

Well, this is my thought on everyones posts. Christianity, is not a debate. You either believe or you dont.
I love Jesus, and Im not ashamed to say it cos I have been in such terrible situations and when I prayed and believed in him and he never left my side.
My question is to those who dont believe, "How do you know we have air"? you cant see it? but you are still breathing .......so you believe that its there, then you try and convince yourself it exists by trying experiments. I know Jesus exists, cos I felt his presence once and for me that was enough to last me a life time. I dont need to convince myself cos he's given me the peace that passes all understanding!!!

ToxicBunny

17-03-2007, 10:59 AM

snapdragon : good on you for your beliefs....

As for your question on air, I don't have to "believe" it, its there plain and simple....

icyrus

17-03-2007, 11:03 AM

noxibox

17-03-2007, 11:10 AM

Religious ppl kill once a day, whereas the atheist-heathen-pagan-sonsofthedevil kill once an hour....
It just shows that atheists are more efficient and deliver 24 hour service.

"How do you know we have air"
We can perform repeatable tests to demonstrate that there is air and we can analyse its components.

noxibox

17-03-2007, 11:15 AM

It's like a third sense. - Homer Simpson

snapdragon

17-03-2007, 11:41 AM

Stupidity at its best. Sight is not the only sense.

You should call yourself that, cos if you read properly......:D It was an example....

nthdimension

17-03-2007, 12:08 PM

Are there repeatable tests for Jesus?

NBC

19-03-2007, 06:49 AM

Are there repeatable tests for Jesus?
People are the ones being tested. You cannot repeatedly "test" Jesus - Jam 1:13. A big part of being a Christian is believing what you cannot see. He still works through us and that we can see. I'm sure you know that any man who looks unto the face of God Himself, will die.

If you really want to test Him, open your heart to Him once. Just be careful: You won't turn back. :)

BCO

19-03-2007, 09:05 AM

People are the ones being tested. You cannot repeatedly "test" Jesus - Jam 1:13. A big part of being a Christian is believing what you cannot see. He still works through us and that we can see. I'm sure you know that any man who looks unto the face of God Himself, will die.

If you really want to test Him, open your heart to Him once. Just be careful: You won't turn back. :)

I did, once I learned to think critically.

noxibox

19-03-2007, 09:08 AM

believing what you cannot see
That is how I know the Easter Bunny really exists and loves me. You can't beat a deity that brings chocolate.

noxibox

19-03-2007, 09:10 AM

You won't turn back.
I was raised Christian and it is a crock. The best decision I ever made was leaving that voodoo mumbo jumbo behind.

NBC

19-03-2007, 09:38 AM

I was a 'Christian' all my life as well, or so I thought. Let me guess, you were dutch reformed (NG)? Doesn't matter anyway. As long as people look at denomination, they'll miss the point. Denominations get so invloved in petty little arguments, for example, whether to be baptised as a baby or adult. Read what the Bible says and you'll know. Simple. But we rather opt to "think critically".

If you claim to have been a truely newborn Christian, and turned away from it, your heart was never open, but as closed as it is around your argument.

ToxicBunny

19-03-2007, 09:42 AM

Oh great, I love that kind of reasoning.... If you were Christian and then chose not to be anymore, then you were never a Christian in the first place.... cool logic.

BCO

19-03-2007, 09:43 AM

I was raised an Anglican, but in my teen years I was "born again" and attended a Baptist church.

I was a born again Christian. I'm now an athesit.

I'm much happier now.

nthdimension

19-03-2007, 09:53 AM

I was a fervent Christian until my late teenage years. One day someone planted the seed that started me thinking about the details of the religion. The more I thought about it the dumber it looked. Even once I could see it was nonsense it took a while for me to free myself from the shackles of having it pumped into me for my entire childhood. I've been free from religion for decades. I'm grateful that I was freed before I had children, so I was able to raise them without forcing a religion upon them.

nthdimension

19-03-2007, 09:55 AM

Oh great, I love that kind of reasoning.... If you were Christian and then chose not to be anymore, then you were never a Christian in the first place.... cool logic.
So if I give up being a genocidal megalomaniac I never was one?

Beancounter

19-03-2007, 09:58 AM

I was raised an Anglican, but in my teen years I was "born again" and attended a Baptist church.

I was a born again Christian. I'm now an athesit.

I'm much happier now.

I was a fervent Christian until my late teenage years. One day someone planted the seed that started me thinking about the details of the religion. The more I thought about it the dumber it looked. Even once I could see it was nonsense it took a while for me to free myself from the shackles of having it pumped into me for my entire childhood. I've been free from religion for decades. I'm grateful that I was freed before I had children, so I was able to raise them without forcing a religion upon them.

But guys, you weren't real Christians because you aren't any more. ;)

It is impossible to argue with such "logic" but it is the same which premeates many arguments of theists - no true Scotsman.

Mr TB

19-03-2007, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by BlueCollar

"I'm much happier now"
I am sad for you, you are happy with very little...

Originally Posted by nthdimension
"I was a fervent Christian until my late teenage years"
Maybe you thought you were a fervent Christian, or you were a Christian and are now part of the lost sheep,remember the parable Jesus told?...he will come and fetch you don't you worry about that...

Yes, don't force Jesus Christ onto your kids but don't stop them if one come to telling you he/she gave his life to Christ...

Remember w

ToxicBunny

19-03-2007, 10:45 AM

*tries to refrain himself from peeing in his chair*...

damnit this is the funniest stuff I've read in the Philosophical section in ages....

BCO

19-03-2007, 10:47 AM

Don't cry for me, MrTB,
the truth is I never left you
All through my wild days
My mad existence
I kept my promise
Don't keep your distance

Mr TB

19-03-2007, 11:03 AM

IN RESPONSE TO NOXIBOX

"I was raised Christian and it is a crock. The best decision I ever made was leaving that voodoo mumbo jumbo behind."

I have no idea why you are a crock, but your post reflect something, it reflect unforgiveness an hate towards God. I do apologise if this is harsh but forgive and let go of the hate that destroys you man.

I saw man with mine own eyes a girl of 20 years old walking on crutches into a healing service, she was suffering , I am no fool man, she was in a car accident. I check her she sat down in the chair and the preacher he was still getting his act together to start his prayer from her ankles upwards.

The next moment man she wanted to get up just saying I healed!, even the preacher was startled...he did even started to pray! She walked out without crutches that night, I am no liar, she works her in Hyperama just down the street from where I stay. I don't need to lie man...

I urge read proverbs it tells that hate and unforegiveness attacks your bones...

BCO

19-03-2007, 11:04 AM

Noxibox doesn't hate god. You can't hate something that does not exist.

Mr TB

19-03-2007, 11:08 AM

IN RESPONSE TO BLUE COLLAR

Something on the beat of "In The Summertime" would have given me the idea you happy...the one you used reflect loneliness...

Claymore

19-03-2007, 11:37 AM

Maybe you thought you were a fervent Christian, or you were a Christian and are now part of the lost sheep,remember the parable Jesus told?...he will come and fetch you don't you worry about that...

It's why priests are called "pastors" - because they're in charge of a flock of sheep.

NBC

19-03-2007, 12:22 PM

Too many people act like sheep. Everybody wants to follow and very few will lead. You can call whoever whatever you like, but everyone living to God's Will is a disciple. Whether he is a pastor, priest, dominee or what have you. Title has nothing to do with it, neither has appearance or politics, or anything else. It's what's inside (not even Bill Gates can afford this one...).

Having realised that we are free of the bindings of this world (and I'm not saying we are sin free), you view things in a different light. I feel sorry for a lot of churches who actually preach the Gospel, but they're not "alive". Almost as if they don't (yes) believe what they are reading, putting God and faith in a box, and taking it out when things go sour.

If you were a Christian (whatever denomination) and turned away, you were nevecr truely committed, in other words, you never surrendered everything you had. You cannot "try" Christianity and wait for results. Let me put it this way, you can't say to God: "Here is a piece of my life/posessions, prove to me that You are worthy". Do you tell your boss/CEO to prove himself worthy to have you as an employee?? It's exactly the other way around!

And I hear you, I know where you are coming from - I was there too. I was convinced of the same theories and doubts, but if you never tasted ie. wild honey, how will you know the difference between artificial crap and the real thing? And don't distort this EXAMPLE, compare whatever you like.

Mr TB

19-03-2007, 01:01 PM

IN RESPONSE TO NBC

What did Dawid du Plessis say about this... The one still got the meat in the fridge whilst the other has the meat out on the fire...

bk.ru

19-03-2007, 01:33 PM

My brother wanted to become a minister, I am glad I was able to convince him to not waste his life. :)

icyrus

19-03-2007, 01:37 PM

If you were a Christian (whatever denomination) and turned away, you were nevecr truely committed, in other words, you never surrendered everything you had. You cannot "try" Christianity and wait for results. Let me put it this way, you can't say to God: "Here is a piece of my life/posessions, prove to me that You are worthy". Do you tell your boss/CEO to prove himself worthy to have you as an employee?? It's exactly the other way around!

This paragraph sums up quite nicely the danger organized religion and its proponents pose.

Paraphrased: we want unquestioning and unwaivering loyalty from you, or else you are to be condemned to a life of eternal misery.

NBC

19-03-2007, 02:33 PM

This paragraph sums up quite nicely the danger organized religion and its proponents pose.

Paraphrased: we want unquestioning and unwaivering loyalty from you, or else you are to be condemned to a life of eternal misery.

lol. I feel sorry for you that you see this as a danger to you, but maybe it's for the better.

Funny how your argument applies to religion, but not the workplace example I put forward. Double standards, or rather, philosophies...

But I suppose that can be expected of human nature: being afraid of what you do not understand.

Oh, and WE don't want "unquestioning and unwaivering loyalty", God does. Any Christian judging anyone else will be judged the same way (possibly worse) by God.

icyrus

19-03-2007, 02:43 PM

lol. I feel sorry for you that you see this as a danger to you, but maybe it's for the better.

Danger to society.

Funny how your argument applies to religion, but not the workplace example I put forward. Double standards, or rather, philosophies...

Um no it doesn't apply because getting or not getting a job is not equivalent to eternal bliss or eternal torment. Besides, any smart person looking for a job would evaluate not only the company and his potential co-workers before agreeing to take the position but also his boss.

But I suppose that can be expected of human nature: being afraid of what you do not understand.

I understand just fine.

Oh, and WE don't want "unquestioning and unwaivering loyalty", God does. Any Christian judging anyone else will be judged the same way (possibly worse) by God.

God is not running the church - well you say he is but I just see ordinary people. Take the RCC for instance: you say god wants unwaivering, unquestioning loyalty but the pope is his main man, so they are the pope's legions now. It is the same way with all religions.

So here we have a few select people with millions of people too indoctrinated or too fearful to be anything but subservient to them, their wishes and their whims.

Don't you see the danger in this?

BCO

19-03-2007, 02:46 PM

Quite frankly, I don't understand your workplace analogy. Nobody said anything about god having to prove himself.

In my case I was a "true believer" (you can deny on my behalf all you like), but after years of wrestling with the issue (and trying my best to deny the brutal truth) I was simply unable to defend a theist philosophy.

I'm sorry but if you suspend your ideological bias and look dispassionately and logically at the issue, it becomes undeniably clear that there is definitely no god in the christian sense, and almost certainly no god at all.

Any claims to the contrary are based only on self delusion.

NBC

19-03-2007, 03:35 PM

What danger to society? Where is Christianity dangerous? Where all we stand for and belive in is good (and I'm not talking about a corrupt, self preserving so-called church or pope/pastor/preacher/etc)? As apposed to atheist "beliefs" that everything is happening through evolution? Do you know what will be the next big thing? New species on the way? Or the lack of religion that everything just happens to fit in so perfectly? The balances of nature? Laws of physics? A brain to conjure up these ideas? The complexity of the human body?

Any church not run by God should be wiped off this planet, because it is a disgrace. The church should be (in) people, not an orginization or building. The problem is (and always has been) money and power. Those people do not speak or act on my behalf (and believers like me) and never will. And the more I evaluate what I've seen and experienced, the more I come to know that there is no law on this earth that can rationally explain it.

Icyrus, if you understood perfectly, you would not be saying that you do.

BCO

19-03-2007, 03:39 PM

As apposed to atheist "beliefs" that everything is happening through evolution?

And just as I was beginning to think you were one of the more intelligent christians on this forum, you go and say something like that.

T_T

ghoti

19-03-2007, 03:51 PM

As apposed to atheist "beliefs" that everything is happening through evolution?

Most christians accept evolution. FivelZA, whats your opinion on evolution?

icyrus

19-03-2007, 04:15 PM

What danger to society? Where is Christianity dangerous?

Crusades?

Icyrus, if you understood perfectly, you would not be saying that you do.

Perfectly? Didn't I say "just fine"?

fivelza

19-03-2007, 04:21 PM

Most christians accept evolution. FivelZA, whats your opinion on evolution?

D@rn, W1z, I thought you would leave me out of this one.

My 2c worth and I have not done nearly enough reading as many of you have to have a proper informed view. The Theory of Evolution (TOE) exists and that is undeniable. The trouble that I have is that Christians try and fit it into the Bible and the story of the Creation and then things become less clear as it appears to clash with the TOE.

I submit that it is a non-committal answer as I truly haven't invested enough time reading up about it :o and as such do not have much, if anything to contribute at the moment to all that has been said in the above posts.

I don't believe that by understanding the TOE and researching it in any way should affect a Christians faith.

ghoti

19-03-2007, 04:34 PM

D@rn, W1z, I thought you would leave me out of this one.

My 2c worth and I have not done nearly enough reading as many of you have to have a proper informed view. The Theory of Evolution (TOE) exists and that is undeniable. The trouble that I have is that Christians try and fit it into the Bible and the story of the Creation and then things become less clear as it appears to clash with the TOE.

I submit that it is a non-committal answer as I truly haven't invested enough time reading up about it :o and as such do not have much, if anything to contribute at the moment to all that has been said in the above posts.

I don't believe that by understanding the TOE and researching it in any way should affect a Christians faith.

Neither does Collins :)

fivelza

19-03-2007, 04:50 PM

Neither does Collins :)

Which Collins book are you referring to?

Pr⊕phet

19-03-2007, 06:09 PM

lol great from page 29-33. crap ;)

strange how this post turned from 'satan' to a debate on christianity.

NBC. i was in all respects a true christian in its sense from NG up to Charasmatic and then fanatic. ( i have done the whole lot except catholic)

till one day i found out that right out condeming people was wrong, just becuase they are in differant believes to your own.

from there on i have chosen a differant path, from full 'there is no God' to down the pagan route (a few differant branches), even some shinto/budaishm
to where i am now - by my own choice.

from all this experiance i would say that one should make absolutly up his own mind in which religion he/she wants to be - anything else is wrong. end of story, you simply just don't force anyone into your believes.

BUT we should rather strife to share than to burn each other.
its really pointless to go on and on and on and on on who is right and who is not about everything.

unfortunately some people can't grasp this or won't.

...Sheep among us is part of the problem, there is always this thing of when you have walked your bit you forget where u came from and that you may still work together with that particular group and others - even if today you seems to 'know' allot more then they do.

thruth in its essence is very much bases on our own point of view, experiances and research.

...we may very well find what we except life to be in the end to be very differant :)

my venture:
who really is our devinity out there for part some reason - iether there is no god at all (we were lied to) or there is and it was spesifically made this way (life) that we DON'T have the answers to spur us on to investigate more and hehe have debates like this one rather to give us all in the beginning and make us out to do nothing on the subject at all.

for myself i would say there is something out there ;)

NBC

19-03-2007, 06:50 PM

And just as I was beginning to think you were one of the more intelligent christians on this forum, you go and say something like that.
T_T
Rofl, well, I thought that would provoke some comment! :D What is your take? Tell me what you think? I am working through the other threads, but a direct conversation is always better.

My opinion is just: everything is too balanced, too perfect to happen by chance. If you leave everything to chance, Murphy starts to play a role...

Crusades?
Perfectly? Didn't I say "just fine"?
I will be honest: I will have a difficult time with somebody on any other crusade than LIVING the Gospel. All the accusations you guys have made are with good reason! Some people are completely nuts/obsessive! To be convinced of something is not the same as being obsessed by it. People who are running around condemning and judging people shouldn't be "preaching" at all. It has the direct opposite effect, of which I'm sure you can tell me loads.

Perfectly/just fine, in other words, enough to convince yourself. Sounds the same to me - you know enough to not want to know more. Sorry about the misquote.

Ryuji, I agree. Respect is a major part in having a meaningful conversation/debate about something. It's always interesting to hear another point of view, but by no means should anyone, ANYONE, go around telling people: "Turn or Burn". Regardless of what I still believe and what you did in the past. I think you may recall that none of the apostles or disciples had that approach either. And that brings me to the second point. There are a lot of "managers" in churches nowadays, instead of leaders. A very important truth is, that not all leaders are good managers, and vice versa, causing people to follow managers, instead of leaders, and poof: there you have your flock of sheep without direction. Which in turn causes the wrong conviction, approach and most important, growth. People get so lost in things far less intense than this debate, that they forget what they're really talking about! They fight harder than they believe... you get the point.

In short then, you will know when you meet a new born Christian. Look at all the crap posted about Christianity and their beliefs on these threads. I would not even get engaged in some of them! Like you said, everyone should make up their own minds and we will indeed one day know which was the truth. As far as you guys are concerned: if God really exists, He will reveal it all.:D

strange how this post turned from 'satan' to a debate on christianity.
With a thread subject like this?! I read a few misconceptions about Christianity and tried to rectify...now we're in the 30s already...lol

Pr⊕phet

19-03-2007, 09:03 PM

I think you may recall that none of the apostles or disciples had that approach either.

interesting now that i really think about it...

thnx

phenom

19-03-2007, 10:38 PM

Personally, I don't know much about Satanism, but i find it somewhat logical, though the satan in satanism is very un-sexy if the word Satan in the word satanism were removed people could feel more self assured to raise their children with or with part of it's philosophy
;) :confused: :D /:mad:

Claymore

20-03-2007, 10:42 AM

My 2c worth and I have not done nearly enough reading as many of you have to have a proper informed view. The Theory of Evolution (TOE) exists and that is undeniable. The trouble that I have is that Christians try and fit it into the Bible and the story of the Creation and then things become less clear as it appears to clash with the TOE.

I submit that it is a non-committal answer as I truly haven't invested enough time reading up about it :o and as such do not have much, if anything to contribute at the moment to all that has been said in the above posts.

I don't believe that by understanding the TOE and researching it in any way should affect a Christians faith.

Seems like a pretty reasonable viewpoint to me.

NBC

20-03-2007, 12:01 PM

Tux

20-03-2007, 12:06 PM

Reasonable, yes, but I disagree with Christians (again, not everyone calling themselves Christian is a Christian) modifying TOE to fit the Bible. Christians should believe exactly what the Bible tells them. If it says God made the earth in 6 days, that is what He did.

You cannot reconcile TOE and the Bible, they are two very different things. But I agree, some people do precisely what you say, and it is wrong.

Good point :D

The bible also tells you to stone the living schitt out of a woman cheating on her husband. Seen that happen lately? not? Then y'all aint following the goode booke as y'all should methinks

fivelza

20-03-2007, 12:12 PM

nthdimension

20-03-2007, 12:12 PM

Then y'all aint following the goode booke as y'all should methinks
That is why there is a standing challenge for an example of a Christian that does follow the whole book.

Tux

20-03-2007, 12:14 PM

Personally I think Xtians are a bunch of hypocrates that only follow the parts that fits into their scheme of things and the rest the try to explain away

NBC

20-03-2007, 03:38 PM

Yes but there is also an interpretation that the 6 days in not 6 days as we understand a day (i.e. 24 hours)....for example.
I have thought of that, yes, but I cannot decide on my part what to take literally, or what to believe or what not. So I'd rather take God's Word as it is, or not at all. You'll put yourself in danger if make descisions about the Bible based on your own opinion.

The bible also tells you to stone the living schitt out of a woman cheating on her husband. Seen that happen lately? not? Then y'all aint following the goode booke as y'all should methinks
That goes for the husband as well. But no, you don't see it today, because Christ has released us from the curse of the law of Moses. Read John 8:3-11. That is how Jesus preached forgiveness. The question of stoning is also answered in those 9 verses.

There are only 2 laws (or commandments) we have to follow: Love you Lord God with all you have (heart, soul, mind), and love your nieghbour (everyone else) as you would yourself. "These two commandments sum up and upon them depend all the Law and the Prophets." (Mat 22:37-40).

That pretty much tells you, that if you do the above, you fullfill God's will in everything.