A Philosophical Question

[Nanfeishen]

Why do you think Eastern philosophies developed into lifestyles, ways of living , guidelines to life so to speak, but never developed into the theme of religion as seen in the western sense?
I.E. total subservience to "church", the idea of a martyr, the idea of resurrection etc.
Yes Buddhism, Shintoism, Daoism and Confucinism are classed as "religious" as in faiths that people follow, but the fanatacism, the fighting between them, the killing in the name of them i.e. crusades ,terrorism , these are western ideals often fought in the name of religion.
In the East, these belief systems coexisted, and still coexist, even under communism they are accepted, yet western style religions arent.
Why didnt western philosophy and western philisophical thought develop along the same lines? it should have, but didnt, why?

[ghoti]

Why do you think Eastern philosophies developed into lifestyles, ways of living , guidelines to life so to speak, but never developed into the theme of religion as seen in the western sense?

Their philosophy involved thinking an inner meditation. My guess is they were less ignorant than others



Why didnt western philosophy and western philisophical thought develop along the same lines? it should have, but didnt, why?

Most western religions require you not to think. To unquestionably accept what is being told with some type of faith or another. Out of the box thinking is discouraged. The eastern religions allow themselves to be wrong, and thereby can be expanded and improved upon. The western religions do not.

[Xarog]

As W1zard says, Western religions tend to be about controlling the masses, wheras the eastern belief systems seem to be less interested in control and more interested in geniune enlightenment. In short, it appears the east never cottoned on to the fact that controlling one's beliefs can be a form of power in its own right.

[Mr TB]

QUESTION 1

Why is the "religion" Allah and the Muslems which will include Islam specifically not mentioned in your first opening post?

[Xarog]

Why do you put religion in inverted commas when referring to Islam? Do you believe it isn't a geniune religion?

As for why it wasn't included in the list - I see only eastern religions being named specifically; Islam is related to Judaism and Christianity, and would very much fall under the western category for the purposes of this discussion.

[Mr TB]

QUESTION 2

The mentioned "religions" in your opening post co-existed under communism but the communist goverment did everything to destroy christianity,... why?

[Xarog]

QUESTION 2

The mentioned "religions" in your opening post co-existed under communism but the communist goverment did everything to destroy christianity,... why?

Because it was a tool for controlling people and the Communists didn't like the competition.

[Mr TB]

Why do you put religion in inverted commas when referring to Islam? Do you believe it isn't a geniune religion?

As for why it wasn't included in the list - I see only eastern religions being named specifically; Islam is related to Judaism and Christianity, and would very much fall under the western category for the purposes of this discussion.

But the mistake is made, it did not originate from the west it was carried into the west so it form part of the east and that point can not be ignored...

As for christianity and judaism it was carried into the west from the east... it is not a western religion as stated by you...

[Xarog]

But the mistake is made, it did not originate from the west it was carried into the west so it form part of the east and that point can not be ignored...

As for christianity and judaism it was carried into the west from the east... it is not a western religion as stated by you...

Take the Americas out of the picture, i.e. the New World, and all three religions are very much from the west.

Unless you want to start claiming that the Romans were of eastern decent, of course...

Not that the geographical locations actually matter - would you preferred it if the terminology used was Asian and non-Asian? In short, what will stop your nitpicking?

[Mr TB]

Sometimes i will put words in inverted commas because of you guys be so full of nonsense...

[nocilah]

you will also find eastern religions/philosophies/faiths concentrate on working with your surroundings. They tend to always talk about finding a balance of sorts where as more westernized religions are about the externalised actions and behavior. Overall the western religions tend to be marred by great violence where eastern seems to be very peaceful.

just an observation and not necessarily fact.

[ghoti]

Can we get douwdouw banned? This is getting silly. He provides nothing useful to the conversation, talks the biggest load of bollocks out and simply derails otherwise intelligent debates. However, if there are people who find his scribblings useful, then I withdraw my request.

[Debbie]

West- linear thinking/orientation...room for only one thing at a time
East- circular thinking/orientation...room for many things simultaneously

Why? Nfi. Power politics maybe?

[Mr TB]

Take the Americas out of the picture, i.e. the New World, and all three religions are very much from the west.

Unless you want to start claiming that the Romans were of eastern decent, of course...

Not that the geographical locations actually matter - would you preferred it if the terminology used was Asian and non-Asian? In short, what will stop your nitpicking?

The origin of christianity is if i am correct in the east, that is why the original languages are i think greek, hebrew,aramic...etc...

Then the bible itself was accepted by the Romans(the papal regime) i think 381 AC and spread through the west...

Yes it is definite an easternly thing...

[ghoti]

The origin of christianity is if i am correct in the east, that is why the original languages are i think greek, hebrew,aramic...etc...

All languages that do not have a J for J esus in them.

[Nick333]

QUESTION 1

Why is the "religion" Allah and the Muslems which will include Islam specifically not mentioned in your first opening post?

I would assume because he considers Islam a western religion. It originates from the same part of the world as Christianity and Judaism after all.

For the sake of this thread can we all agree to classify eastern as India and anywhere east of India and western as anything West of India.

My theory is that they never cottoned onto the concept of monotheism like they did in the middle east. Monotheism seems to be what leads to dogmatic, fanatical belief systems.
Pantheistic religions do usually have a father/creator god but he usually doesn't have an obsession with the behavior of his individual creations. People are free to explore new and different ideas and then to fit them into pantheistic world view without fear of reprisals from a jealous deity.

[PostmanPot]

Can we get douwdouw banned? This is getting silly. He provides nothing useful to the conversation, talks the biggest load of bollocks out and simply derails otherwise intelligent debates. However, if there are people who find his scribblings useful, then I withdraw my request.

i find them useful for a chuckle :D

[Xarog]

The origin of christianity is if i am correct in the east, that is why the original languages are i think greek, hebrew,aramic...etc...

Then the bible itself was accepted by the Romans(the papal regime) i think 381 AC and spread through the west...

Yes it is definite an easternly thing...
Can I assume then that you don't have a problem with the classification of Asian and non-Asian with regards to this debate?

[nocilah]

The origin of christianity is if i am correct in the east, that is why the original languages are i think greek, hebrew,aramic...etc...

Then the bible itself was accepted by the Romans(the papal regime) i think 381 AC and spread through the west...

Yes it is definite an easternly thing...

The middle east. Islam, Judaism and Christianity derive from there. Bear in mind the Roman Empire expanded from the Mediterranean through to most of southern Europe and parts of Northern Europe.

The Roman Empire attributed a lot to today's laws and structure.

The Roman Empire was basically most of the known world and there was no one religion within the Roman Empire.

Even today Christianity is splintered into various faiths, cults, sects and groups.

And that is something i find strange, but i may be wrong.

There are no splinters in other main religions are there barring perhaps the jew vs the orthodox jew?

[nocilah]

I would assume because he considers Islam a western religion. It originates from the same part of the world as Christianity and Judaism after all.

For the sake of this thread can we all agree to classify eastern as India and anywhere east of India and western as anything West of India.

My theory is that they never cottoned onto the concept of monotheism like they did in the middle east. Monotheism seems to be what leads to dogmatic, fanatical belief systems.
Pantheistic religions do usually have a father/creator god but he usually doesn't have an obsession with the behavior of his individual creations. People are free to explore new and different ideas and then to fit them into pantheistic world view without fear of reprisals from a jealous deity.

in theory there are no major religions that hold today from the west.

most religion comes from the Middle East or Far East.

[Xarog]

You'd be wrong - Islam is a very splintered religion, and the splintering isn't very peaceful, either.

[ghoti]

And that is something i find strange, but i may be wrong.

There are no splinters in other main religions are there barring perhaps the jew vs the orthodox jew?

Sunni / Shiaat (spelling)

[Xarog]

"Shiite" :)

[Nanfeishen]

As for christianity and judaism it was carried into the west from the east... it is not a western religion as stated by you...

Lets define what you say , that Christianity and Judaism came from the East?
Incorrect, they come from the MIDDLE EAST, small difference in language , big geographically, and as to your questions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism may be from around the Middle East , but they are still generally grouped together as "western style RELIGIONS" they are not classed with the "EASTERN" belief systems.
Judaism is accepted in China by the way, and during WWII, the Japanese never persecuted the jews who lived in Japan, the way they were in Germany, yet Japan was on the same side as Germany.
Christianity is banned in China in the sense of openly being allowed to worship (public) because it is regarded as a "cult", as in having a "figurehead" who's followers obey his words only, above and beyond that of the governments, in other words his followers place his laws above the laws of the state, their beliefs above that of the governments, and their desires above that of their fellow countrymen, and because they try and convert people to their belief system.
There are churches in China, i have seen them on my travels, visited them and spoken to the worshippers, they are allowed their religion, as long as they are attending under free will , and have not been coerced into attending a service through propaganda, advertising or promises of "being saved", in other words free choice.

[Nick333]

The Roman Empire was basically most of the known world and there was no one religion within the Roman Empire.

There was always the Roman state religion which all subjects of the empire were required to practice, though not to the exclusion of their own beliefs and practices.
Of course from 300 odd A.D Christianity was the state religion.
?[/QUOTE]

[Mr TB]

Classification: EASTERN PHILOSOPHY?

Why do you want to ban me ?, for showing you that your cassification of CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM AND THE MUSLIM FAITH are wrong?...

Please we have to be reasonable...

[GamerGirl]

Why do you think Eastern philosophies developed into lifestyles, ways of living , guidelines to life so to speak, but never developed into the theme of religion as seen in the western sense?
I.E. total subservience to "church", the idea of a martyr, the idea of resurrection etc.
Yes Buddhism, Shintoism, Daoism and Confucinism are classed as "religious" as in faiths that people follow, but the fanatacism, the fighting between them, the killing in the name of them i.e. crusades ,terrorism , these are western ideals often fought in the name of religion.
In the East, these belief systems coexisted, and still coexist, even under communism they are accepted, yet western style religions arent.
Why didnt western philosophy and western philisophical thought develop along the same lines? it should have, but didnt, why?

From the point of view of most Eastern 'religions' life is an inward journey that the further you go inward, the further the outward journey takes you. The Medieval times was a very dark period in Western history, because of the concept of control. Pagan 'religions' were banished and people mass murdered because they didn't conform.

(interestingly in order to assimilate the Pagan people into Christian thought, many Pagan traditions were assimilated at the same time: trees being decorated at Winter Solstice, the giving of gifts, the 25th of December being a huge festival time for Pagans, the names of the days of the week and months etc etc etc)

For me the best part of Eastern thinking is Karma and re-incarnation.
A basic basic concept, that helps people realise that every step we takes has consequences. rather than living in a world, where the fires of eternal hell generate constant fear. It is a more self-forgiving and learning experience. Yeah, I messed up, I see the consequences of x are y, so next time I avoid it.

An interesting point: I have a friend who is a Buddhist Monk. He wanted to become a marriage officer, in order to legally marry people under the 'religion' of Buddhism. The South African government does not recognise Buddhism as a religion. The kept trying to categorise Buddhism as Islam/Hinduism.

[Xarog]

Classification: EASTERN PHILOSOPHY?

Why do you want to ban me ?, for showing you that your cassification of CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM AND THE MUSLIM FAITH are wrong?...

Please we have to be reasonable...
The classifications are irrelevant because it does not in any way change the content or the nature of the religions, and so doesn't really have bearing on the discussion. It's like arguing that apples are green and not red when the discussion was really asking "Are apples fruit?"

[Nick333]

Sunni / Shiaat (spelling)

And quite a few more, though not nearly as many as Christianity.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/blfaq_islam_sects.htm

[ghoti]

Classification: EASTERN PHILOSOPHY?

Why do you want to ban me ?, for showing you that your cassification of CHRISTIANITY, JUDAISM AND THE MUSLIM FAITH are wrong?...

Please we have to be reasonable...

I am. Your posts are full of half truths and lies. When people ask you to back up what you say, you ignore. You are simply here to spread misinformation. Its not once, its not twice, its almost every post you write.

Have you not noticed even the christians here have alienated you. If you are going to make silly comments like you constantly do. PLEASE SOURCE AND BACKUP WHAT YOU SAY.

However, my post is now getting as petty as yours, so thats all I am going to say on the subject.

[nocilah]

There was always the Roman state religion which all subjects of the empire were required to practice, though not to the exclusion of their own beliefs and practices.
Of course from 300 odd A.D Christianity was the state religion.
?[/QUOTE]

well considering the Roman Empire spanned over +/- 1000 years it would be difficult to pin one religion over the Empire, especially considering the fall of the Roman Empire started in about +/-370 AD.

[ghoti]

Shortly after the decree of Theophilus in 391. A connection perhaps? Was the burning of the Library of Alexandria and dominance of religion that start of the dark ages?

[Mr TB]

CHRISTIANITY... was carried from jerusalem into the areas of judea and samaria, and from there unto the ends of the earth...

Please check that it started in jerusalem and not in rome as you suggested...

[Nick333]

well considering the Roman Empire spanned over +/- 1000 years it would be difficult to pin one religion over the Empire, especially considering the fall of the Roman Empire started in about +/-370 AD.

At the risk of harping on something fairly irrelevant to the discussion, you are wrong, there was the one roman religion that spanned almost the entire history of ancient Roman civilization. That and christianity towards the end.

http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

[Xarog]

CHRISTIANITY... was carried from jerusalem into the areas of judea and samaria, and from there unto the ends of the earth...

Please check that it started in jerusalem and not in rome as you suggested...

:confused:

Who said Christianity started in Rome?

[Nick333]

CHRISTIANITY... was carried from jerusalem into the areas of judea and samaria, and from there unto the ends of the earth...

Please check that it started in jerusalem and not in rome as you suggested...

Completely irrelevant.

[Mr TB]

well considering the Roman Empire spanned over +/- 1000 years it would be difficult to pin one religion over the Empire, especially considering the fall of the Roman Empire started in about +/-370 AD.[/QUOTE]

Now we are starting to get to a point "STATE RELIGION", that is where it went wrong, it is not suppose to be a "STATE RELIGION". If you are willng to take note now, you noted the roman empire falls apart, the "STATE" takes the bible out of the peoples' hands and the "RELIGIOUS" now starts to rule misusing the bible....Are you still with the plot... "SATAN" of all due respect now pervert church leadership and rules the so-called church between the years +-350ac-1450ac...

STATE RELIGION is not CHRISTIANITY, it caused plenty of injury to CHRISTIANITY...

[Xarog]

Nanfeishen : I suggest you start a new thread, add an "Assume for the purposes of this discussion that every religion created west of India to be a western religion", and that way we can avoid having to deal with douwdouw's pointless blathering.

[Mr TB]

At the risk of harping on something fairly irrelevant to the discussion, you are wrong, there was the one roman religion that spanned almost the entire history of ancient Roman civilization. That and christianity towards the end.

http://www.roman-empire.net/religion/religion.html

The real unfortunate thing is you are not willing to understand that there is a difference between "STATE RELIGION" and "CHRISTIANITY". Your incredible unwillingness to pay attendance to the difference make it actually impossible to explain christianity to you...

The waining in the forums concerning other religions are unjustified if you are not willing to accept the truths about christianity...

No martyrship in buddishm etc. is a straitghtforward lie.
Sitting on spikes while meditating, walking through fire etc, powers of concentration... martyrship is the same thing...

[ghoti]

The real unfortunate thing is you are not willing to understand that there is a difference between "STATE RELIGION" and "CHRISTIANITY". Your incredible unwillingness to pay attendance to the difference make it actually impossible to explain christianity to you...

The waining in the forums concerning other religions are unjustified if you are not willing to accept the truths about christianity...

No martyrship in buddishm etc. is a straitghtforward lie.
Sitting on spikes while meditating, walking through fire etc, powers of concentration... martyrship is the same thing...

Rubbish post.

[Mr TB]

Rubbish post.
If that is indeed your wish, so be it...

[ghoti]

FAR EAST RELIGION:

EASTERN RELIGION:
The western religion and its lifestyle is derived then from the "EAST" but not the "FAR EAST" as suggested ...

Then looking at it this way why is the lifestyle in the "FAR EAST" not influenced by the one in the "EAST"...

Both then going to different extremes due to the character of people influenced...just a thought...

Bad info. Safe to ignore.

[Mr TB]

Bad info. Safe to ignore.

True... why comment... if it is safe to ignore... why not just ignore?
Oh...yes it was only a thought... not info...

[ghoti]

True... why comment... if it is safe to ignore... why not just ignore?

To inform new forumites and other readers who come across this thread to get the correct information as per GAO and logical reason. While I understand your grasp on the truth is tenuous at best, it is also best to inform other people about your deception.

[Nanfeishen]

No martyrship in buddishm etc. is a straitghtforward lie. Sitting on spikes while meditating, walking through fire etc, powers of concentration... martyrship is the same thing...

I suggest you look up the meaning before using a word so readily:
martyr (plural martyrs)

One who takes action according to his religious beliefs accepting that he will be killed by others; one who is put to death for his religion; as, Stephen was the first Christian martyr.
Hence, one who sacrifices his life, his station, or what is of great value to him, for the sake of principle or to sustain a cause.
(with a prepositional phrase of cause) One who suffers greatly.
Stephen was a martyr to arthritis.

Verb
To put to death for adhering to, or acting in accordance with, some belief, especially religious; to sacrifice on account of faith or profession.
To persecute; to torment; to torture.
The lovely Amoret, whose gentle heart
Thou martyrest with sorrow and with smart. —Spenser

source:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/martyr

Powers of concentration, you said it yourself, that is the answer to all those activities, Fire walking, is actually a very simple scientific process , not magic, and meditating on a bed of nails is also simply an exercise in concentration, these activities dont involve death for their belief (unless the guy is a complete and utter tosser, and messes up).
I have been to China, seen martial arts monks perform , and kids , perform the same "tricks", and trained martial arts with them, so i understand that most of what is spectacular to the layman , is simply achieved through dedication to a particular art, acceptional skill at what they do , and a total utter belief in their abilities to do it, in other words lots and lots of practice :D
They are not martyr's ,they are not dying while doing those things, simply men with amazing abilities.

[texo]

Sitting on spikes while meditating, walking through fire etc, powers of concentration... martyrship is the same thing...

Think twice, post once.

[Nanfeishen]

Then looking at it this way why is the lifestyle in the "FAR EAST" not influenced by the one in the "EAST"...

Both then going to different extremes due to the character of people influenced...just a thought...

Why wasnt life style inluenced in the Far East, good question, answer being it was , but only in very small amounts.
Why does a life style change in a country or area? or what influences change?.
The answer is knowledge, and unfortunately the Far East was ahead of the East and the West with regards to knowledge, Scientifically , medicinally, and Philosophically, in those times.
The only time one civilisation affects another is when one has something, or knows something the other doesnt, and unfortunately at the time of the development of the Faiths of Christianity and Islam, the knowledge was greater in the Far East, and so their was very little the Far East required from the East or West knowledge wise( The Judaic faith is older, than the other two, so the amount of contact between the Far East and the East/West would have been a lot less at that time)
Another small , but rather important point , is the geography of the area, there stands between the West/East and the Far East, some of the most uninhabitable regions on earth, travel was not easy the dangers were extreme, and going by sea was very dangerous, so information between the two may take a number of years to reach the other.

[Mr TB]

Why wasnt life style inluenced in the Far East, good question, answer being it was , but only in very small amounts.
Why does a life style change in a country or area? or what influences change?.
The answer is knowledge, and unfortunately the Far East was ahead of the East and the West with regards to knowledge, Scientifically , medicinally, and Philosophically, in those times.
The only time one civilisation affects another is when one has something, or knows something the other doesnt, and unfortunately at the time of the development of the Faiths of Christianity and Islam, the knowledge was greater in the Far East, and so their was very little the Far East required from the East or West knowledge wise( The Judaic faith is older, than the other two, so the amount of contact between the Far East and the East/West would have been a lot less at that time)
Another small , but rather important point , is the geography of the area, there stands between the West/East and the Far East, some of the most uninhabitable regions on earth, travel was not easy the dangers were extreme, and going by sea was very dangerous, so information between the two may take a number of years to reach the other.

Doing a very quick search the following info regarding such religions:

- Hinduism is regarded as the world's oldest religion.
- Judaism is backdated to 1850BC
- Taoism 640BC
- Buddishm 530BC
- Confucianism 479BC
- Christianity 000
- Islam 570AD

That's about it...

[ghoti]

Doing a very quick search the following info regarding such religions:

- Hinduism is regarded as the world's oldest religion.
- Judaism is backdated to 1850BC
- Taoism 640BC
- Buddishm 530BC
- Confucianism 479BC
- Christianity 000
- Islam 570AD

That's about it...

Thank you! A real post! One small error, but not really worth commenting on, just thought I would mention it, Christianity would be 33 AD/CE, and the old Hindu religion in question is Dravidianism (as it is a pretty multi faceted religion)

[Mr TB]

Thank you! A real post! One small error, but not really worth commenting on, just thought I would mention it, Christianity would be 33 AD/CE, and the old Hindu religion in question is Dravidianism (as it is a pretty multi faceted religion)

Like i explained, very basic- and the date well needed to keep you awake, some reckon it even to be 37AD/CE. (CE since you are perfect...)

[Neo]

I really wish the two (or more) dodos posting would identify themselves as such.

It'll make it easier to ignore the non-sensical rantings of dodo-1 (who never seems to grasp the topic at hand, has got a poor understanding of the use of English and its grammar and refuses to use the web or read anything) and actually debate with dodo-2 (who can spell, understand English, can search the web and (although still a fundamentalist) can debate a topic).

@ the dodos; As I've posted before, if you post under different sigs it'll help you as much as the rest of us.

[Skeptik]

I really wish the two (or more) dodos posting would identify themselves as such.

It'll make it easier to ignore the non-sensical rantings of dodo-1 (who never seems to grasp the topic at hand, has got a poor understanding of the use of English and its grammar and refuses to use the web or read anything) and actually debate with dodo-2 (who can spell, understand English, can search the web and (although still a fundamentalist) can debate a topic).

@ the dodos; As I've posted before, if you post under different sigs it'll help you as much as the rest of us.
At least they are debating the issue at hand instead of having a go as 80% of your posts do.

Which sig are you posting under this week? Why not grow a pair and use the same one all the time.

[Mr TB]

As a matter of interest QUOTE:

"Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots in Dravidianism. Dravidianism was estimated to have been practised around 6000 to 3000BCE and as such predates Sumerian, Egyptian and Babylonian cultures."

[Skeptik]

As a matter of interest QUOTE:

"Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots in Dravidianism. Dravidianism was estimated to have been practised around 6000 to 3000BCE and as such predates Sumerian, Egyptian and Babylonian cultures."
Christians regard such religions quite scornfully. Does the age of a religion make it more legitimate? For example, Christianity is over 400 years older than Islam.

[Neo]

At least they are debating the issue at hand instead of having a go as 80% of your posts do.

Which sig are you posting under this week? Why not grow a pair and use the same one all the time.

Must be a sad world you live in where you cannot actually form your own opinion but have to comment on other peoples posts.

I really pity you, you're a very sad person. I hope you work out the issues that made you such a bitter person, I really do. We actually live in a not-so-bad world. I hope you'll one day realise this. Seek therapy.

[Mr TB]

Must be a sad world you live in where you cannot actually form your own opinion but have to comment on other peoples posts.

I really pity you, you're a very sad person. I hope you work out the issues that made you such a bitter person, I really do. We actually live in a not-so-bad world. I hope you'll one day realise this. Seek therapy.

Hi SKEPTIK, may NEO need to seek therapy, he can't realise that he started the sad attacks on DD as usual isn't it? He commented not making any positive contribution to the thread... It is really sad if you can't realise that you are showing signs of inferiority with remarks like that...