is memory stored in the brain or off site

[nocilah]

it has always intrigued me whether our memory is stored in the brain or off site. Where i am not sure, but after reading a lot of stuff on the subject it certainly becomes a compelling thought.

essentially our brain becomes hardware with a wifi connection to a pool of memory, which may explain past lives, thinking the same thing as a friend at the same moment, ect.

what are your thoughts?

[mancombseepgood]

Hmmm
I reckon it's deeper than that - there is a whole "offsite" person there.

[Debbie]

my thoughts are currently experiencing a downtime. please try again later.

[werner]

you got stuff in cache memory, vivid memories, and then you have filing cabinets which require time to access. the cache is like a series of pigeonholes for documents...you can just pull them out at any time and remember in which pigeonhole you stuffed it into

when your cache memory fills up, it gets moved to the filing cabinets using an algorithm of "most important vs oldest". you gotta search through the filing cabinets to find stuff. but most of the time you do not know what is there anymore firsthand

[nocilah]

you got stuff in cache memory, vivid memories, and then you have filing cabinets which require time to access. the cache is like a series of pigeonholes for documents...you can just pull them out at any time and remember in which pigeonhole you stuffed it into

when your cache memory fills up, it gets moved to the filing cabinets using an algorithm of "most important vs oldest". you gotta search through the filing cabinets to find stuff. but most of the time you do not know what is there anymore firsthand

but do you think your memories are stored in your brain or outside the brain?

as in somewhere else but not in the human body?

[werner]

lol, I definitely think it is inside the human body.

i doubt my brain is using offsite backups:-)

[Gert Claassen]

Every cell in your body may be a storage space.
Outside the body? Dont think so.

[ToxicBunny]

There is this idea of "shared" memory or the human mind as it were which is very very compelling, and does open up some VERY interesting topics.

There is also the idea that the single cells can be used to store information, which is alot more physically believe/"provable".. but still limits the amount of information we can store.

[Edwe]

What evidence is there to support these theories?

[ToxicBunny]

Well the stored in the body(brain) there is evidence in the form of the development of neurons and neural pathways etc... but we still have less than no idea how it really works.

I personally like the idea of a shared consciousness. It just opens up some REALLY interesting debates with people, and in some ways it is a logical next evolutionary step for humanity, if we are already seeing hints of it in things like ESP and telepathy etc...

[mancombseepgood]

the problem with these deep theories is that humans always want to use science as we know it - which we have limited to the physical world - to prove them before we believe them... i.e. if we can smell it, see it, touch it we believe it, when there is a whole other place out there. Modern man has (with the help of media pastimes) honed his physical senses to the point that we not only don't experience much outside them, we refuse to believe anything else exists outside this mortal body.

[Natas]

Memory is stored in the brain. No specific memmory is stored in any one location but ones memmory is stored throughout the brain in an electrical state. I the past scientist thought that memmories were stored in a chemical state. They hypothesized that when forming a memmory, a unique chemical marker was generated and then stored in the brain. this hypothesis was supported by test conducted on flat worms. One flat worm was taught a maze. Once this worm had learnt to navigate the maze, it was fed to another flatworm which had never been introduced to the maze. it was found that after consuming the first flatworm, the second could navigaet the maze without having to learn it. This form of memmory could however not be said to apply to humans. the difference in the complexity, nature and volume of what humans and flatworms learn is significant. Also, if this was true then the brain would be much larger and heavier that what it in fact is.

Scientists performed a test on lab rats. They taught them a maze and once they had learnt the maze they removed portions of the brain, removing small portions of different regions of the brain in a number of rats. The rats however still knew the maze. Only once they removed significatn portions of the brain did the rats struggle with the maze. This was however attributed to mental retardation rather than the removal of the specific portion of the brain which housed the memmory of the maze. This led scientists to surmise that memmory was stored in an electrical state, that was governed by nueral pathways.

IMO, memmory of facts and raw knowledge is stored in the electrical state, while skills such as language are contained in the nueral pathways. This is why, as a child, when you are leearnign hard skills, your brain changes and nueral pathways are created.

One must also remember that there is short term and long term memmory. The THEORY above I think applies specifically to long term memmroy

Another interesting case, used to understand the nature of memmory, was an american man who after havnig been kicked in teh head by a horse was unable to forget anything. His brain could remember things down the smallest detail with 100% recall. This case study illustrated that as important as the brains ability to recall, is the brains ability to forget.

[nocilah]

What evidence is there to support these theories?

none. there is evidence that we use our brain to recall memories, but no hard evidence that they actually stored in the brain.

[rwenzori]

I figure it is mostly in your brain, since, if they remove your brain, you don't seem able to remember f0kol!
;)

[nocilah]

Memory is stored in the brain. No specific memmory is stored in any one location but ones memmory is stored throughout the brain in an electrical state. I the past scientist thought that memmories were stored in a chemical state. They hypothesized that when forming a memmory, a unique chemical marker was generated and then stored in the brain. this hypothesis was supported by test conducted on flat worms. One flat worm was taught a maze. Once this worm had learnt to navigate the maze, it was fed to another flatworm which had never been introduced to the maze. it was found that after consuming the first flatworm, the second could navigaet the maze without having to learn it. This form of memmory could however not be said to apply to humans. the difference in the complexity, nature and volume of what humans and flatworms learn is significant. Also, if this was true then the brain would be much larger and heavier that what it in fact is.

Scientists performed a test on lab rats. They taught them a maze and once they had learnt the maze they removed portions of the brain, removing small portions of different regions of the brain in a number of rats. The rats however still knew the maze. Only once they removed significatn portions of the brain did the rats struggle with the maze. This was however attributed to mental retardation rather than the removal of the specific portion of the brain which housed the memmory of the maze. This led scientists to surmise that memmory was stored in an electrical state, that was governed by nueral pathways.

IMO, memmory of facts and raw knowledge is stored in the electrical state, while skills such as language are contained in the nueral pathways. This is why, as a child, when you are leearnign hard skills, your brain changes and nueral pathways are created.

One must also remember that there is short term and long term memmory. The THEORY above I think applies specifically to long term memmroy

Another interesting case, used to understand the nature of memmory, was an american man who after havnig been kicked in teh head by a horse was unable to forget anything. His brain could remember things down the smallest detail with 100% recall. This case study illustrated that as important as the brains ability to recall, is the brains ability to forget.

the above doesnt prove much, especially the part where they remove parts of the brain from rats. if you remove parts of the brain from anything eventually it aint gonna work.

all they are proving is what we know. the brain certainly is used in recalling memories.

after watching a show on string theory it seemed logical that memories could be stored off site. however it would be difficult to prove regardless, one way or the other.

[oober]

But then one can argue to the other side as well. If your brain is the gateway to your consciousness in the physical world then how can you be conscious without it. :D

[mancombseepgood]

Reminds me of the "electronic goods run on smoke" theory... when the smoke escapes from the capacitor, it doesn't work anymore :D

[oober]

Reminds me of the "electronic goods run on smoke" theory... when the smoke escapes from the capacitor, it doesn't work anymore :D

You must mean the genie that hides inside electronic chips. Once the genie escapes the component stops working. :D

[Natas]

@ Halicon: What is string theory?

Not related to the above, I think that one needs to carefully define what memmory is. Does memmory include what one is able to recal, such as what you had for supper last night, does it include skill?

But as for memmory outside of the brain, I agree that it is possible. Athletes talk about mucle memmory. When shooting a basketball from the three point line, you will miss a few times until you learn exaclty how hard you need to propel the ball for it to pass through the hoop. This kind of memmory could be stored in the brain, but IMO it would make more sense for it to be stored in the muslces that are used. This is however a different kind of memmory, not of an event, but of an action.

Sometimes, when people have transplants they often acquire tastes for things they have never even eaten or drank. However, I may be wrong but I have not heard of any of these people recalling any empiral memmories of an event, but rather seems to have some kind of emotional respone. If the person died in a car crash, they may become adverse to cars or somethign like that. or feel a certain way towards something in the donor's life

It is undeniable that certain emotions can be brought on by memmories. Memories and emotions therefore are also closely linked. Technically speaking however, an emotion is NOT a memmory.

IMO the brain definately stores memmories in the form of an electrical current. Billions, if not trilions of specialised neurons in the brain form a complex network of neural pathways through which an electrical current is constanly flowing. However, the entire human body contains an electrical current and there are also nerves contained in the rest of the body. WHile these cells may not be specialised for memmory storage and recall, they may be capable of housing some kind fo memmory.

[simple_simon]

i have a feeling that it is stored in multiple places, not just the brain. i believe the earth itself holds a component, the magnetic grid of the earth is sort of the transmitter and then their is your dna, but not just the chemical components, i think we'll eventually "scientifically" discover that our dna stretches into higher dimensions. in total there are 12 layers of dna. layer one...the physical is just one part, there are other parts that store everything that has ever happened, past, present and future.

its an interactive component of living multiple lives simaltaneaously, what you do in this life is "remembered"/"documented" as a memory and is stored offsite and can be recalled when neccessary.

this is all just a feeling and cannot be proved at present.

[nocilah]

@ Halicon: What is string theory?


to complicated to explain, but it is a new theory that has evolved which is marrying the orderly theory of relativity with chaotic quantum theory.

They talk of having up to 11 dimension in time and space that may have their own physics behind them.

interestingly complex.

so yeah no reason why one of these dimension could be our consciousness which we use our brain to tap into.

there is no proof that memory resides in the brain or in the body, but then there is no proof of it being stored elsewhere, but for me it helps explain a lot of the unexplained.

past lives, same thoughts, ect ect ect.

so the next question it raises is do we actually love in our body? or is our body simply an extension to what we are. An energy source tapping into this shell we cal our body.

[simple_simon]

They talk of having up to 11 dimension in time and space that may have their own physics behind them.

.

12 dimensions.....don't forget the zero.

[Xarog]

This really seems to be an alternative of the mind/body duality question.

Do our thoughts originate in our brains, or are our brains mere interpreters for our conciousness so that we can interact with the physical world?

[simple_simon]

This really seems to be an alternative of the mind/body duality question.

Do our thoughts originate in our brains, or are our brains mere interpreters for our conciousness so that we can interact with the physical world?

the matrix seems more real everyday doesn't it

[kilo39]

after watching a show on string theory it seemed logical that memories could be stored off site. however it would be difficult to prove regardless, one way or the other.Gee guys, well then why am I banging my head over here (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=831306#post831306)

[tibby.dude]

Don't folks get taught factual science anymore ???.
What is this mumbo jumbo about memory being stored off site ???.

Jeez.

[kilo39]

Don't folks get taught factual science anymore ???.
What is this mumbo jumbo about memory being stored off site ???.

Jeez. :D @tibby.

You have not being paying attention. :)

[tibby.dude]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus

Memory formation starts here ... click on the links ... Wikipedia is a rather wonderfull factual tool :).

[nocilah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocampus

Memory formation starts here ... click on the links ... Wikipedia is a rather wonderfull factual tool :).

sure - lets see what they say.


ahh It forms a part of the limbic system and plays a part in memory and spatial navigation.


Psychologists and neuroscientists dispute the precise role of the hippocampus


The discovery of place cells led to the idea that the hippocampus might act as a cognitive map

so they are not really sure - okay so much for the factual tool.

There is no hard evidence where memories are stored. And i didnt pull this idea out of the air (no pun intended) it is a new thought.

Unfortunately not much is known about the brain so it is difficult for anyone to be correct in any studies right now.

[Debbie]

My opinion- I think it's unlikely that some, if not all, memories are stored 'off-site'.

[nocilah]

i think peeps are getting confused.

offcourse the brain is used for reviewing and previewing memories, but is it stored in the brain? what seems so difficult about memory being stored off site?

inspiration comes externally?

most emotions triggered externally?

when you come up with an idea? how did it come about?

does thought = electricity in the brain? does thought = substance?

we know little of the brain or how it works.

[tibby.dude]

There is no hard evidence where memories are stored.

Most rational research state clearly that memories are formed and stored in your brain but the exact mechanism used for recording them and long term retention and recall is rather unclear at this stage.

Any other theory is a bunch of balony or belong in the realm of cheesy science fiction novels.

Core of the Earth ... ag please ... what do people smoke these days ???.

We know for a fact what damage to the hippocampus does i.e see the documented case of Patient HM.


As it turns out, the hippocampus is crucial for memory storage. When he lost his hippocampi, Henry became frozen in 1953, remembering very well the events before his operation but unable to create any new memories

For more info

http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/hm-memory

[nocilah]

Most rational research state clearly that memories are formed and stored in your brain but the exact mechanism used for recording them and long term retention and recall is rather unclear at this stage.

obvioulsy recording needs to happen with the eyes and brain - i do agree


Any other theory is a bunch of balony or belong in the realm of cheesy science fiction novels. they said the same thing when Nikola was talking about RF signals at a science convention in the early 1900's.

but lets see what has been discovered?


The birth of the modern era of memory research is often pegged to the publication, in 1957,of an account of the neurological patient H.M. At age 27, H.M. had large chunks of the temporal lobes of his brain surgically removed in a last-ditch effort to relieve chronic epilepsy. The surgery worked, but it left H.M. unable to remember anything that happened--or anyone he met--after his surgery. The case showed that the medial temporal lobes (MTL), which include the hippocampus, are crucial for making new memories. H.M.'s case also revealed, on closer examination, that memory is not a monolith: Given a tricky mirror drawing task, H.M.'s performance improved steadily over 3 days even though he had no memory of his previous practice. Remembering how is not the same as remembering what, as far as the brain is concerned.

Thanks to experiments on animals and the advent of human brain imaging, scientists now have a working knowledge of the various kinds of memory as well as which parts of the brain are involved in each. But persistent gaps remain. Although the MTL has indeed proved critical for declarative memory--the recollection of facts and events--the region remains something of a black box. How its various components interact during memory encoding and retrieval is unresolved. Moreover, the MTL is not the final repository of declarative memories. Such memories are apparently filed to the cerebral cortex for long-term storage, but how this happens, and how memories are represented in the cortex, remains unclear.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/309/5731/92 <-- source

phew - sounds like they dont really know yet.

[kilo39]

The quantum mind theory is founded on the premise that quantum theory is necessary to fully understand the mind and brain, particularly concerning an explanation of consciousness.

This does not imply that classical mechanics can explain consciousness, but that quantum effects including superposition and entanglement are insignificant. Quantum chemistry is required to understand the actions of neurotransmitters, for example.
Quantum mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain)

and interesting discussion:

Consciousness causes collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse)

[nocilah]

The quantum mind theory is founded on the premise that quantum theory is necessary to fully understand the mind and brain, particularly concerning an explanation of consciousness.

This does not imply that classical mechanics can explain consciousness, but that quantum effects including superposition and entanglement are insignificant. Quantum chemistry is required to understand the actions of neurotransmitters, for example.
Quantum mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain)

which ties in rather nice with string theory.

[kilo39]

Esse est Percipi ("to be is to be perceived"): The idea of consciousness somehow being related to the creation of reality was first proposed by Bishop Berkeley. With the publication of Die Mathematische Grundlagen der Quantenmechanik, it was Von Neumann however who became the first person to hint that Quantum theory may imply an active role for consciousness in the process of reality creation. Others, such as Walter Heitler, Fritz London, Edmond Bauer, and Eugene Wigner further carried Von Neumann's argument to a claimed logical conclusion that consciousness-created reality is the inevitable outcome of Von Neumann's picture of quantum theory.
Consciousness causes collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_causes_collapse)

so much to read, so little time :)

and: Greg Egan's novel Quarantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarantine_%28novel%29) is a great book!

[kilo39]

An even better model: Holographic Universe (http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html)

Bohm is not the only researcher who has found evidence that the universe is a hologram. Working independently in the field of brain research, Standford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram has also become persuaded of the holographic nature of reality. Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain.

[tibby.dude]

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=26909

[simple_simon]

An even better model: Holographic Universe (http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html)

Bohm is not the only researcher who has found evidence that the universe is a hologram. Working independently in the field of brain research, Standford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram has also become persuaded of the holographic nature of reality. Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain.

i've read about this before, its a pretty good concept....it takes a while to really think you understand and grasp its true meaning.

i think people get confused between the reason something happens and the how something happens.

i think what ever process in the brain brings a memmory to consciousness is the "how" part in this dimension/reality.

it follows the reason which lies in the the higher dimensions/realities.

[Debbie]

If memories are physically stored in the brain, then there is a finite amount of 'space' in which to store memories. There is a limit.
?

[simple_simon]

i just love this forum.....its one of the only places where you can talk about a subject such as this and put your point of view across in terms of "techie logic" and other people actually understand what you're trying to say....if i mention this point of view to my wife like i do on this forum....she looks at me as though i'm retarded

[Xarog]

If memories are physically stored in the brain, then there is a finite amount of 'space' in which to store memories. There is a limit.
?
As long as the sum total of existence is finite, then our capacities to store memories must also be finite. Though, even if memories are stored in the brain I suspect that we've got alot more space to store memories than the average person uses in their lifetime.

[noswal]

Memory is stored in the mind - a collection of mental images
Your mind is not your brain or your brain is not your mind

[Debbie]

So where is your mind located?

[simple_simon]

So where is your mind located?

the pixies asked a very smilar question....made them millions

[kilo39]

Hey tibs a 'memory molecule' doesn't exclude a holographic brain (or a holographic universe.)


if i mention this point of view to my wife like i do on this forum....she looks at me as though i'm retardedUm, I did take note of "your model" :) Ticked it off on my pad: um, and I thought I was 'out-there'. :D


If memories are physically stored in the brain, then there is a finite amount of 'space' in which to store memories. There is a limit. ?Don't believe a holographic model necessarily states memory is stored off-site, just ever smaller shards. Till the quantum level, and beyond? :)


i have a feeling that it is stored in multiple places, not just the brain. i believe the earth itself holds a component, the magnetic grid of the earth is sort of the transmitter and then their is your dna, but not just the chemical components, i think we'll eventually "scientifically" discover that our dna stretches into higher dimensions.Like it... as said, makes a person feel right at home. ;)

[simple_simon]

Um, I did take note of "your model" :) Ticked it off on my pad: um, and I thought I was 'out-there'. :D

Like it... as said, makes a person feel right at home. ;)

ha hahah, yes out-there is an understatement.

if only i had a large wads of disposable income to hire "scientists" to prove it.

but alas....larry and his chum....thought of the word "google" before i did