..America...a great country to live in...

[malJohann]

I'm in Jacksonville, Florida for business and this is my first time in America. There is a couple of things here that I could not believe when I arrived and found out during my stay so far.

First of all is people working for government is actually competent and friendly. On top of that the people working for low salaries in convenience stores are friendly too. In fact, I have not found one rude person in the two weeks that I've been here. I think they may all be breathing nitrous oxide mixed with air here, and it's contagious. When driving people generally don't tailgate you or flash the newest handsigns on the block. If you like to drive slowly (which most of them do anyway) and someone wants to pass you, they just pass you with no aggression, no hand signs, no screaming, no road range, nothing. Wow. In case you couldn't tell, I also live in beloved Joburg.

Then they have a couple of laws here that almost bowled me over. The one is something called the "right to keep and bear arms" which is that basically you can walk into any gun shop, buy a rifle or shotgun and walk out with it not much later, you can also buy a handgun but you have to wait only 3 days before you may pick it up. Oh, and their rifles are generally not what were used to, as most of them are semi-automatic versions of assault rifles. I got to handle some Colt M4's in various guises with amazing optics, a FN Herstal FS2000, two FN Herstal PS90's (black and drab olive green), various AK47s, semi-auto shotguns and also various handguns. You can even buy a Barrett M82A1 (a 50 caliber long range sniper rifle) here and take it home no questions asked. :eek:

The other law that totally stumped me is the "castle doctrine" which is that you may use deadly force if someone is committing a crime against you in your home, vehicle or place of business. You won't be prosecuted for it even if you could get out of danger, as the "castle doctrine" stipulates that in those places it is not required of you to look for a way out, just defend yourself even with deadly force. :eek: :eek:

I'm really totally understand why people from South-Africa are emigrating to countries like these, taking their families with them and never looking back. Heck, I'm even considering it. Never thought I would say this, but it seems like a great country to live in, and you wouldn't believe how many people here does not agree with what Bush is doing.

[ghoti]

It must be wonderul living in a country like the USA. I am sure its very pretty. It does afterall exploit the rest of the world...

[fivelza]

I lived in Houston, TX for a bit and the Americans are very friendly and polite....not always very birght ;)

[malJohann]

It must be wonderul living in a country like the USA. I am sure its very pretty. It does afterall exploit the rest of the world...

Did you even read anything I said? South-African people can learn a lot from most people here (not including US government of course), but all that said I don't live here (only here for 4 weeks more), just thought I would share my experiences so far.

[mancombseepgood]

I'm in Jacksonville, Florida

The other law that totally stumped me is the "castle doctrine" which is that you may use deadly force if someone is committing a crime against you in your home, vehicle or place of business. You won't be prosecuted for it even if you could get out of danger, as the "castle doctrine" stipulates that in those places it is not required of you to look for a way out, just defend yourself even with deadly force.


Believe me, that varies from state to state...
You are in the south, afterall.

[froggytoo]

Believe me, that varies from state to state...
You are in the south, afterall.

Well I have been a few places in USA and Canada and by comparison we are in the 4th world of evolution.

[vespax]

I'm from the US. You are in Florida, which explains the slow (read: granny) drivers you are seeing.

That gun thing, don't think your going to get away with that in many other states. And that might also be a reason the US has such a high gun related crime stat.

Also, I haven't heard of that castle thing, but I know if you don't kill the dude, he will be back, just with his lawyer this time for attempted murder!!!

There are good things there. There are good things here. We all just want to live life the best we can. Remember, SA needs people who work, the US has enough, so try helping this place out for as long as you can tolerate it. ;)

[BEGIN LAMBASTING ME NOW]

[froggytoo]

Done Your'e lambasted now

[bwana]

The Castle Doctrine refers to a legal concept derived from English Common Law as it is presently applied in sections of the United States of America. It designates one's home as a place in which one enjoys protections from both prying and violent attack. In the United States, laws informally referred to as 'castle laws' can sometimes impose an obligation to retreat before using force to defend oneself. The Castle Doctrine provides for an exception to this duty. Provided one is attacked in their own home, vehicle, or place of business, in jurisdictions where 'castle laws' are in force, one may stand their ground against an assailant without fear of prosecution. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine)According to the article less than half of the states have such a law and many have adopted the opposite which is called the "Duty to retreat"

In Florida its a bit broader than most states
In Florida, Castle Doctrine applies to any place where a person has a legal right to be, not just their own home Here's another article that refers to the Stand-your-ground law which seems to apply more aptly to Florida. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

[malJohann]

U.S. States with Castle Doctrine Laws in Effect

Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Colorado
Florida (adopted March of 2005)
Georgia
Indiana (No duty to retreat. Statute.)
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan (Signed By Governor Granholm July 20th 2006)
Mississippi
Nebraska
New Hampshire
North Dakota
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Rhode Island (11-8-8)
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas (Will be introduced in January 2007 by Texas Senator Wentworth and Representative Driver. The current Texas Law,note §9.42(3).)
Washington

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine)

[Bumzilla]

all in all, US is a pretty good place to live in. when I was there, you actually don't find arrogant people. Those you usually find outside of US since they say "oh we got this, and that in US and it's bigger too!" I found myself doing the same thing when I came back to SA after living in US for almost 9 years.
Wish SA had similar laws as US, then we have the right to kill any bastard that dares to enter our private houses and not be sued by the gov.

[tibby.dude]

Yeah S.A gun nuts would love the US :).

[Gunny]

Yeah S.A gun nuts would love the US :).

Not gun nuts ppl who want to be able to protect there family when in danger. Criminals here dnt give a stuff because they know you going to hesitate about doing something and most likely you dnt have a gun due to the new gun laws. Apply a shoot first ask questions later rule and criminals will think twice about invading your personal space.

[tibby.dude]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16668110/
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/011958.php

No thanks gun nuts.

I love my 10 year old liberty and freedom here in S.A even if I have to dodge the perps and criminals ... the US is turning into a totalitarian regime run by like minded rightwing neocon nuts.

They remind me far too much of the Nats ... total onslaught ... war against terror :).

[Alan]

It must be wonderul living in a country like the USA. I am sure its very pretty. It does afterall exploit the rest of the world...

Jealousy makes you nasty. Other nations see how well the U.S is doing, they are the world's only superpower, then look at themselves and convenientlyblame the U.S for there problems. :rolleyes:

Maybe they should look in the mirror and sort out there own problems.

Sad really :o

[tibby.dude]

Other nations see how well the U.S doing, they are the world's only superpower

Russia and China might beg to differ when it comes to superpower stakes but doing well you say ???.

They are technically bankrupt and the day the Chinese decide to sell all their dollar holdings they are going to be the ones passing the third world begging bowl around :).

[Alan]

Russia and China might beg to differ when it comes to superpower stakes but doing well you say ???.

They are technically bankrupt and the day the Chinese decide to sell all their dollar holdings they are going to be the ones passing the third world begging bowl around :).

Ah yes, their demise is coming :rolleyes: . Oh if only I had a dollar for every time I heard that :D

As I said Jealousy Makes You Nasty.

[tibby.dude]

As I said Jealousy Makes You Nasty.

Have you ever seen ONE posting by me stating how miserable I am living here ???.

Besides Sherlock , some of us have much higher aims in life than polishing our Glock at night and shopping for the latest cheap Chinese junk at Walmart :).

[vespax]

Have you ever seen ONE posting by me stating how miserable I am living here ???.

Besides Sherlock , some of us have much higher aims in life than polishing our Glock at night and shopping for the latest cheap Chinese junk at Walmart :).

Yes! I agree there Tibby.

[LoneGunman]

re the US, yup - there's something wonderful about being in a place that pretty much works, as well as generally speaking, filled with people who've had some fairly decent values instilled in them - so helpfulness and courtesy are a norm here in the US. Someone drops something, you help them pick it up - if you go through a door, you hold it for the next person, coz that's what the guys in front have done for you. On just about every level you can think of, there's a courtesy and politeness throughout the society, thats incredibly refreshing after being used to the various approaches of Africa.
Yeah there're dumb and rude people.. but so what? They're outnumbered..

As for 'guns' - well, you don't need them, generally in the US, unlike SA..

And as for 'higher aims than shopping'. Sure.. unfortunately, living behind electric fences, alarm systems, paranoia and being considered inherently a racist because of your skin colour, well, that's gonna slow down your philosophical/material pursuits somewhat..

Here in the US, you're actually free to pursue your dreams - whatever they happen to be, and to do it in a modern, generous-to-a-fault society where courtesy, helpfulness and good heartedness is a norm.
In SA, that would mark you as being crazy.

And as for 'politics' - again, in SA it gets you killed - here, its a distant buzz which you can ignore while pursuing your desires and dreams.. whereas in SA, your nose is rubbed daily in the fact that 'SA politics' isn't working.
(From Telkom to AID's to the always talked about 'crime' - guess what, that's symptomatic of a government that isnt up to the job. Forget about trying to make it seem that the US or the EU is somehow equally as bad. They're not.)

To the original poster - good on ya.. welcome to the 21st century - ignore the grumbles of the envious, jealous and unsafe :P

[bb_matt]

I've never been to the USA, but here in the UK, we share the same values.

In the village I live in, everyone is friendly and helpful - in fact, on the most part, aside from big city centres, it's a friendly atmosphere where people have the time of day to assist you.

Now, I'll back up SA here and say that people WOULD assist more, if they were not so worried about becoming a victim of crime - and that is the bottom line.

I've completely lost that paranoid feeling "what do they want from me?" when someone tries to help me and it's so cool when you help someone else and they don't shy away - you end up having a good chat and walk away happy.

I agree with LGM about politics - you can safely ignore the bulk of it, because it isn't so interlinked with general society.

In SA the direct link to society is all too obvious and intrusive - how could it be otherwise?

It's black and white! :)

[malJohann]

To the original poster - good on ya.. welcome to the 21st century - ignore the grumbles of the envious, jealous and unsafe :P

Thanks. I find it very refreshing to see that the population in general are polite and courteous as you say. Even the women hold the doors and lifts for men if they see you approaching! Everybody here have way less hangups than SA people.

Regarding the guns. People here don't buy them to protect themselves, they generally do it either because they are collectors and have a passion for weapons of all kind, because the participate in sport shooting, or just to satisfy the child in them and go to the shooting range every so often. I found that very refreshing too.

The only reason I probably won't emigrate is because I would feel very bad if something happened to my elderly parents in SA while I was in the US. I would not be able to live with myself and would always think I could have done something.

[Syndyre]

Wish SA had similar laws as US, then we have the right to kill any bastard that dares to enter our private houses and not be sued by the gov.

Yeah, enact that here and watch crime drop.

[LoneGunman]

malJohann - if all that's keeping you in SA is worry over your folks, then maybe look at ways of 'securing' them somehow - and/or perhaps ultimately relocating them as well (if you have the finances)
Bottom line is to live your life in a way that's generally happy, in a society that's generally safe, with lots of opportunities if you're willing to work. To live any other way, means you end up kind of twisted inside.
I know for myself, and BB Matt probably has his variation on it, being in the UK - but after some 9 months in the US- I'm a lot less 'angry' as a person, and more relaxed generally. After all, when there's nothing to be scared of, worried about or angry at - in comparison to SA's worries - one ends up relaxing for the first time in years if not decades. Suddenly there's a whole different person emerging, that simply isn't allowed to exist, under the angsts of SA life..

[nthdimension]

There are many great things about the United States, but unfortunately the government is out of control, and has been for decades. Far too many places feel like a glossy police state, and not enough people take the responsibility of freedom seriously.

[bb_matt]

Oh yeah, I'm hugely better as a person these days.

Back in Joburg, I would fly off the handle at all sorts of minor things - heck, I once went beserk because I dropped spagetti in the sink. That has some relevance, because I did that again over here six months after leaving and I just calmly made another pot :)

That anger, which manifests itself over mundane things, is a stress reaction - simple as that.

If you spend a great deal of your time worrying about crime, living behind security fences, so worried you are always looking over your shoulder, it's going to impact on who you are.

I didn't realise how many hangups I had until I got out of SA.

I've cut down drastically on drinking, lost 15kg in weight, got myself a fantastic girlfriend, a great job and heck, life is good.

Now, I'm not saying that leaving SA is a solution to anyones problems, but it was for me. I'll also admit that I was in other ruts in my life which needed sorting, so I sorted them.

Life isn't easy here, by no means. But heck, I'm loving it - you know, when I go to the shops on my high street, I sometimes forget to lock my front door.
I sleep at night with the back door open in summer.
My car is parked outside all the time - sometimes 3 or 4 blocks away. I only really use it on weekends.
Burglar bars? - what are those? ;)

That in essence is something that really bought it home to me - I can open a window which I can actually climb out of if I chose too :D

[malJohann]

I sometimes forget to lock my front door.

Yeah, I forgot the drivers window open once and the sunroof open twice since I've arrived and guess what, the car wasn't stolen and the radio's still there! I would never forget to close any open windows or doors of a car in South-Africa, not even a rental, but here everything is so relaxed and it really is infectious because I've only been here for 2 weeks and I'm unwound in ways I would never imagine was possible. I also sleep with an open window here that has no burgular bars, because the aircon dries my throat out, again something I would never try in South-Africa.

[tibby.dude]

Sure.. unfortunately, living behind electric fences, alarm systems, paranoia and being considered inherently a racist because of your skin colour, well, that's gonna slow down your philosophical/material pursuits somewhat..

Paranoia ... us ... hahahaha you are so blind.

http://www.dhs.gov/xinfoshare/programs/Copy_of_press_release_0046.shtm

[Highflyer_GP]

There are many great things about the United States, but unfortunately the government is out of control, and has been for decades. Far too many places feel like a glossy police state, and not enough people take the responsibility of freedom seriously.
If you have even the slightest tan, then be prepared to be apprehended and interrogated upon landing there for a few hours. They're taking the 9/11 and war on terror thing way too far, that almost every foreigner who isn't white ends up being treated like a suspected criminal.

Therefore I don't really see the logic in saying that politics doesn't affect general society because as a foreigner you are directly affected by their politics, you are immediately judged by your skin colour. Even white people who are slightly tanned will be regarded as suspicious. Yes I have experienced it first hand about 2 years back and it's not a very pleasant experience.

No thanks, while it may be a great place to live, as a foreigner in that country I don't want to always be looked down upon as a suspected criminal and taken into custody everytime they suspect something just because I happen to be South African. SA may have it's problems, but for the large part you aren't discriminated against in terms of general interaction in society.

[nthdimension]

Someone drops something, you help them pick it up - if you go through a door, you hold it for the next person, coz that's what the guys in front have done for you.

And as for 'politics' - again, in SA it gets you killed - here, its a distant buzz which you can ignore while pursuing your desires and dreams.. whereas in SA, your nose is rubbed daily in the fact that 'SA politics' isn't working.
(From Telkom to AID's to the always talked about 'crime' - guess what, that's symptomatic of a government that isnt up to the job. Forget about trying to make it seem that the US or the EU is somehow equally as bad. They're not.)

This is exactly what is very wrong with both the United States and United Kingdom today. People need to get more involved. One day they may wake up and discover that everything our founding fathers for for is gone.

My experience of both countries was that politicians harped on crime a lot. Admittedly in South Africa the crime problem is real whereas in the US and UK it was never that bad, the politicians were just trying to make the populace fearful so they could curtail one or another freedom (and sadly it was usually very effective).

When it comes to friendliness I have found South Africans to be generally friendly and helpful, regardless of their colour. I've only lived in Johannesburg and Cape Town though so maybe elsewhere they are less so.

I also know that the US and UK have their fair share of rude, obstructionist bureaucrats who make it impossible to get anything done.

Maybe one day I'll get the urge to return to the US, but for now I quite like the craziness of Africa, which is why my wife and I came here.

[nthdimension]

If you have even the slightest tan, then be prepared to be apprehended and interrogated upon landing there for a few hours. They're taking the 9/11 and war on terror thing way too far, that almost every foreigner who isn't white ends up being treated like a suspected criminal.

Therefore I don't really see the logic in saying that politics doesn't affect general society because as a foreigner you are directly affected by their politics, you are immediately judged by your skin colour.
Just one area where the government is totally out of control. They even mistreat white foreigners. And if you're not white being a citizen doesn't offer you much protection from harassment.

I'm still amazed that so many of my fellow Americans were totally oblivious to one government after another sucking away our freedom as fast they could.

As far as I'm concerned the UK government is equally out of control. The UK was never a particularly good place for freedom, but the current government is starting to make the Tories look like hippie liberals.

[tibby.dude]

As far as I'm concerned the UK government is equally out of control.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/09/london_metro_police_.html

Just lovely :).

[malJohann]

If you have even the slightest tan, then be prepared to be apprehended and interrogated upon landing there for a few hours.

Quite the opposite of my experience, and believe me I don't have a light tan. In fact when I landed in Washington IA the only guy that gave me the eagle eye was the first officer that checked my passport. The rest of the security and airport personnel was open and friendly. Once in the country no-one looks at you suspiciously, but they show an open and friendly interest in you when you speak with a different accent. When I talk about South-Africa to my colleagues here they don't talk down to me or treat me with anything other than friendlyness and respect.

[LoneGunman]

one should realise that from the outside, the US and the UK appear to be easily pigeonholeable societies (if thats even a word) - but the reality is so multi-faceted compared to very 'simple' SA, that often, the only view that is visible is the one via the Net.
Yes the US is fascist in the purest sense, but also it has the ability to shrug off the dubya's and neocons, if and when it wakes up.

All that stuff about goodwill and hopes for a better life, that people and PR companies say about SA (and which, in reality, given the crazed violence, bitterness and general sullen incompetence that rules in SA, will never happen there) can actually occur in the US. The people themselves are decent and big hearted, and yeah, they're also KFC and Big Mac clones.. but there's an innate positive spirit which, coming from the beaten down and 'backs to the wall' warfare attitude in SA, is very visible everywhere in the US.

Americans may not have much democracy left, and they may not be aware of how much Dubya has taken away from them - but they really do believe they're entitled to freedom, democracy and the pursuit of individual happiness. Shake that good natured big hearted sleeping tiger at ones own peril - as hopefully the neocons will discover.

Whereas in SA, folks are literally barricading themselves into their prison homes, resentfully trying to make it seem that this is normal 'everywhere' and trying desperately to believe that the incompetents in charge, will magically stop doing what they're doing, and it'll all be lovely, and everyone can live happily ever after.
I'm not crowing over how bad SA has it, its basically 'my' country of birth, and its sad to see how far its drifted from both democracy, and peaceful society.
Yeah the US has a zillion things wrong with it - and it can't compare with SA at its best - but SA isn't at its best, and is getting sicker, more anti-democratic, racist, violent, and filled with hate.

Now let's hear the responses from people living behind 10 foot high electric fences, razor wire, guard dogs, alarm systems, panic buttons - about how wonderful SA is, and how misguided I am somehow :P

[Highflyer_GP]

LGM we're not saying that SA the best place to live in, nor that the US is the worst, however it's great if you're American and living there in a safe society. It's just the way they treat foreigners leaves much to be desired. While some foreigners may be "lucky" in a sense not to be discriminated against (maybe due to their skin colour or whatever the case is), most are not that lucky (including foreign whites) and therefore the US is not an option for many. The question is what do we as South Africans do? What choice do we have? Seeing that the majority of us have no other choice, how can we effect change this country for the better?

[LoneGunman]

re the way they 'treat' foreigners.. I disagree, I've sat in social situations with what you or I would consider total 'foreigners' - barely articulate Indian or Arab folks, struggling to make themselves understood - and the Americans take the time to pause and listen to them, wait for them to struggle through whatever they're saying, and respond to them normally.

Whereas I could feel in myself, as a regtig english seff effriken, the urge to say 'Oh shut up' at the foreigners.. that umm willingness to hear out folks who are clearly 'foreign' and who have little to no understanding of US culture, makes me hesitant to lump all Americans as being the types to be treating foreigners badly - because I've personally seen quite the opposite. I mean America really is the 'melting pot' in various ways - lots of totally different people getting on with each other.

But yeah, I take your point re effecting change in SA as being the important thing to do. That needs education, and political activism in some ways - like people need to VOTE for the parties and politicians who will make changes..
I hope its just a matter of time, before there's enough generations of disenchanted school leavers who don't even remember Apartheid, but who see how much the current government suck, begin to start voting for other parties, or forming new ones..

[lewstherin]

Thought I'd bring my limited Australian experience to this discussion.

Of course I'm sure that the "defenders of the faith" (faith in the ANC and SA that is - the tibby.dude's of this forum) will google off to find some evidence of attrocities commited by the Aus government too.

I've been over here for just over a year now, having started in Perth and since moved to Brisbane.
To say that I'm less stressed and more at ease than I can remember is an understatement. The things that I used to loathe doing - like dealing with communications providers, the municipality, government agencies, hell even with car salesmen - are no longer chores that consume hours or even days of my time. Probably the most stress I've had has been around buying a house given how much they cost over here.

Service levels - particularly amongst government departments - are so much higher than those of SA its ridiculous. Whats more ridiculous is hearing people here complain about "poor service"...lol.
As an example, I recently needed to convert my West Australian drivers licence to a Queensland one. No worries! 2 minutes queueing in a clean, well organised, well climate-controlled licencing centre, 2 minutes to fill in a form, 1 minute to get a digital photo taken, 1 minute for them to issue the licence card on the spot...I strolled out with my new licence in hand, shaking my head at the sheer efficiency of it all.

On the crime side, its definitely a concern here.
I mean over the last week I think there were two murders and a suspicious death...in the whole country that is...local politicians are up in arms about the crime spike.
61 people around the country were killed over Christmas in road accidents - its the worst road death toll in 5 years. Wasn't SA's over 1000 for the same period?
Oh and there's a couple of sex pests grabbing womens' a$$es on Brisbane bikeways - the police response has been to deploy a platoon of cops to patrol the areas and hunts the pervs down.

Seriously though, people still get murdered and other crime does happen in Aus. But nothing even bordering on frequency and scale of the body count SA stacks up.
My wife walks the dogs every evening without a care in the world...in SA after dark, she never even ventured out unaccompanied in her car if she could help it.

As my final comment, I have to say being able to apply for a job, knowing I'm being evaluated purely on merit is a great feeling. I also no longer find myself looking at people of other races wondering whether it was their competency or their skin colour that got them to where they are.
There is such a thing as Employment Equity here - but it aint no SA double-speak - EE is what it says; there are commissions around the country that ensure that no one is unfairly discriminated against in terms of hiring or firing. Australia is a society built around the concept of giving everyone a "fair go"...and for the most part the philosophy works really well.
I'm glad I can look forward to one day having kids that don't have to look at the world in the polarised manner that I've inherited from SA.

[vespax]

Just be glad your not Mexican in America right now as well. :D

Funny little story, my mom arrived from the USA yesterday morning for her first international trip of her life to see her first grandchild.

I needed to go to Home Affairs in Wynberg to check on the 'unabridged' Birth Certificate of my son so we can get his US passport (we are also getting an SA passport for him as well). So my mom and I walked from my house in Chelsea Village down through Maynard park with the vagrants sleeping all around us, past the Night Haven Homeless Shelter and into the Home Affairs office.

To put it nicely, she was blown away with office. It really does look depressing and 3rd world in there, to be honest. So I just laughed and told her not to complain about the Driver License Office in the US after visiting Home Affairs.

So we go to the collections desk to ask about the birth certificate. The lady was nice and went to check on it. Surprise, surprise it was ready to be picked up after a month (over the silly season too!). So she asks to see my ID to check it out on their computer system. I told her I didn't bring my passport with me. So she says, she needs my ID number for the computer. I told her I was American and didn't have a SA ID #. So she looks at the document and asks if she can use my wife's ID number which was printed on the certificate. I said that was fine (trying to just get my hands on the document without fighting with them even though I was in the wrong with not having any ID on me). She enters the number int the computer and hands me the birth certificate. No ID required!!! :eek:

After examining the document it turns out that according to Home Affairs I was born in a town that does not exist in South Africa! :confused: So I had to speak to a man in another office to try and get that sorted out. The man said to come with him to a back room. So my mom and I are waiting in this room when he comes in with a stack of about 200 applications and tells us to find ours. My mom was blown away having just come from post 9-11 USA, this guy was leaving us alone in a room with all the immigration/death/birth/visa applications of people over the past few months. So we go through all the applications looking for my sons. Don't find it. So I tell him and he goes and gets another stack. We go through them all by ourselves.

At this point my mom and I are laughing as we are reading about all the people who are applying for ancestoral/work visas to NZ/Australia/UK/Spain/USA/etc. We even have all their ID information right there with us. We could have grabbed loads of personal data on people! but didn't. So we don't find our application after hundereds... So I tell the guy, and he says no worries, he will phone Pretoria today and print me a new one tomorrow and call me when it is ready. So I am waiting to see if he phones to give me the right document.

So that was my mom's first day in 'Africa'. Going through people's immigration documents looking for her grandsons birth certificate application that Home Affairs screwed up because they made her son a SA born person on official papers needed for the US Embassy. And she still has a month to go in this crazy land. The stories she will tell when she gets back from SA. :rolleyes:

[antowan]

The other law that totally stumped me is the "castle doctrine" which is that you may use deadly force if someone is committing a crime against you in your home, vehicle or place of business. You won't be prosecuted for it even if you could get out of danger, as the "castle doctrine" stipulates that in those places it is not required of you to look for a way out, just defend yourself even with deadly force. :eek: :eek:

I agree with this. Why should you have to ***** foot around in your own home when somebody takes the liberty of violating your inner most sanctum of private space to come and steal or kill? **** IT! Criminals should know that once they set foot on somebody else's property they can be taken out! It would make a hell of a difference to crime!

[Fudzy]

I agree with this. Why should you have to ***** foot around in your own home when somebody takes the liberty of violating your inner most sanctum of private space to come and steal or kill? **** IT! Criminals should know that once they set foot on somebody else's property they can be taken out! It would make a hell of a difference to crime!

I don't think it would deter crime, only increase the number of unarmed victims being shot. I don't own a gun, I won't own a gun and if some guy breaks into my place scared that if he doesn't shoot me first I'll go Clint Eastwood on his ass I'm probably going to find myself dead.

[bwana]

LGM we're not saying that SA the best place to live in, nor that the US is the worst, however it's great if you're American and living there in a safe society. It's just the way they treat foreigners leaves much to be desired. While some foreigners may be "lucky" in a sense not to be discriminated against (maybe due to their skin colour or whatever the case is), most are not that lucky (including foreign whites) and therefore the US is not an option for many. The question is what do we as South Africans do? What choice do we have? Seeing that the majority of us have no other choice, how can we effect change this country for the better?How much, if any, of this is derived from personal experience? From mine, foreigners are more-often-than-not met more with a sense of curiosity than anything else and not with abject discrimination.

[froggytoo]

At this point my mom and I are laughing as we are reading about all the people who are applying for ancestoral/work visas to NZ/Australia/UK/Spain/USA/etc. We even have all their ID information right there with us. We could have grabbed loads of personal data on people! but didn't. So we don't find our application after hundereds... :rolleyes:

Typical Just Fsucking typical. I arrest my case re South Africa's public sector competence.

[froggytoo]

It's just the way they treat foreigners leaves much to be desired. (including foreign whites). The question is what do we as South Africans do? What choice do we have? Seeing that the majority of us have no other choice, how can we effect change this country for the better?

I am fully in agreement with this one, but with the reservation to say that I found the problem MOSTLY at customs during entry, at the JFK airport in particular. Maybe they have reasons but found the people at JFK airport extremely rude and unhelpful. For the rest of USA and Canada the difference was phenomenal. Good and caring people. I only had a few small problems mainly related to culture I think. Like when you enter I factory and greet people then ask for someone in particular they are annoyed as you first have to introduce yourself and state where you are from and what its all about before asking directions or guidance. Imagine that, reception, secretary, office staff then eventually you get to the right person. Would feel like an stuck record.

Regards to what we do. I do not know, lost for ideas, it just do not seem to work. My view is to give ANC a scare so they know that the voters count, else they will never improve matters as they know they will be in charge anyway. Forever. Just a shame.

[Bageloo]

I don't know maybe it's just me. But don't you guys think it's a bit lame(and odd) to compare life in US/UK/Aus(1st world) and life in SA (3rd world)? Like HighFlierGP said, for some of us America/UK is not an option. We have to live with our fate and try and make the best of the situation. As for the stress factor, many Americans die of stress/worry related deseases every day. It is probably why Dale Carnegie wrote the book "How to stop worrying and start living" The day you are free of stress will be the day you stopped breathing.
Now coming back to the manners issue, everywhere you go there's always an ******* ready to give you the finger. That's is not a uniquely SA problem. Our problems might seem exagerated when compared to other countires, due to the strife we have to live under. Like they say, there is no place like home. SA is our home and we are therefore prepared to make it better for all of us in it.

[mancombseepgood]

Thought I'd bring my limited Australian experience to this discussion.

Since Australia's population started with the criminal element in the UK system, how long before SA becomes as safe as Australia? :D

[Bageloo]

...As my final comment, I have to say being able to apply for a job, knowing I'm being evaluated purely on merit is a great feeling. I also no longer find myself looking at people of other races wondering whether it was their competency or their skin colour that got them to where they are. That's what happens if you don't believe in the abilities of others (based on skin colour). SA has taught us that black ppl are incompetent. I'm glad to know that Aus is contributing towards a change of attitude

...
... Australia is a society built around the concept of giving everyone a "fair go"...and for the most part the philosophy works really well.
I'm glad I can look forward to one day having kids that don't have to look at the world in the polarised manner that I've inherited from SA. As long as you teach them the right human values they'll be OK. Remember the bulk of who we are is what we are taught at home. If we are racist/prejudiced it's because those traits were instilled/encouraged at home.

[Leitmotif]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Wyoming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project

Live Free or Die? Why not. :)

[Nanfeishen]

As some have stated ,not all of us have a choice, not all of us are privileged enough to afford to leave, not all of us are in industries that would afford us the opportunities to leave, and not all of us are qualified enough to leave, let alone having or using the ancestor card to play, we are dealt a hand and we have to play it to the best of our abilities.
I have not lived overseas, but i have travelled often, mainly to the Far East and yes, i did feel a bit safer, and there was a certain amount of friendliness and comfort in the regularity of service or transport, but personally i found i became frustrated.
There was to me a sameness , a drudgery of every day being the same as the next, or the same as next month. There was a pettiness to the rules, and an orderliness to the societies that was boring to me. There was no chaos, no uncertainty, no thrill of what will today bring, no waking up to some new headline of corruption , or violence , or disaster, no mystery of the future, no sense of survival instinct which makes one feel alive, in other words it wasn't home, it wasn't Africa.
For me, living here makes me feel alive, yes, i have a wall around my house, and burglar bars on my windows, trellidoors, a car alarm and a gearlock, but i still walk my dogs at night, i still go shopping , i still get a smile and a laugh from the petrol attendant or the checkout girls, i have lunch with my domestic when she works or with the Angolan who comes to work in my garden. I talk to the carguards who watch my car in various place i go , from Zaire, Ruwanda, Mocambique, Zimbabwe, and place i have hardly ever heard of, and i realise how lucky i am to be able to hear these stories, and some of them are real horror stories, listen to these dreams of a better life, and hear of the families and loved one's left behind who couldnt make the journey.
You can have, keep and live overseas as much as you guys want, that is obviously more suited to you, that environment is your comfort, or dream, or security, or whatever, me, i will stay, even if its just to see if we can do it.;)

[vespax]

As some have stated ,not all of us have a choice, not all of us are privileged enough to afford to leave, not all of us are in industries that would afford us the opportunities to leave, and not all of us are qualified enough to leave, let alone having or using the ancestor card to play, we are dealt a hand and we have to play it to the best of our abilities.
I have not lived overseas, but i have travelled often, mainly to the Far East and yes, i did feel a bit safer, and there was a certain amount of friendliness and comfort in the regularity of service or transport, but personally i found i became frustrated.
There was to me a sameness , a drudgery of every day being the same as the next, or the same as next month. There was a pettiness to the rules, and an orderliness to the societies that was boring to me. There was no chaos, no uncertainty, no thrill of what will today bring, no waking up to some new headline of corruption , or violence , or disaster, no mystery of the future, no sense of survival instinct which makes one feel alive, in other words it wasn't home, it wasn't Africa.
For me, living here makes me feel alive, yes, i have a wall around my house, and burglar bars on my windows, trellidoors, a car alarm and a gearlock, but i still walk my dogs at night, i still go shopping , i still get a smile and a laugh from the petrol attendant or the checkout girls, i have lunch with my domestic when she works or with the Angolan who comes to work in my garden. I talk to the carguards who watch my car in various place i go , from Zaire, Ruwanda, Mocambique, Zimbabwe, and place i have hardly ever heard of, and i realise how lucky i am to be able to hear these stories, and some of them are real horror stories, listen to these dreams of a better life, and hear of the families and loved one's left behind who couldnt make the journey.
You can have, keep and live overseas as much as you guys want, that is obviously more suited to you, that environment is your comfort, or dream, or security, or whatever, me, i will stay, even if its just to see if we can do it.;)

Wow, I feel inspired. Off to take a walk in my 3rd world town! :)

[LoneGunman]

Here in the US, an elderly couple who run their own little cafe, fended off two would-be robbers by themselves, and they're big heroes, on all the chat shows..

In SA they'd be a small news item on page 3, when their bodies were discovered.

But that aside - I agree re the attitude of JFK officials at point of entry - had similar experience. Maybe its a good thing, to have those kinds of d1ckheads manning the desks at the entry to the country, bad for PR but good for security.. Never had that level of unease, and nervousness since, from any other Gov officials - so maybe its a deliberate thing..

re the sameness of days.. yeah, agreed. But on the other hand, I havent even thought of my own safety, or my partners, on any level, in months. She can be out at 10 at night, and I'm not worried at all. One can't say the same back in SA..
And on the plus side, here, things just 'work'. Somethings wrong, its fixed, fast. There's a level of speed to just about any services you can think of - from post through to internet (unlimited) - which means less time spent in a state of frustration or anger, which is the norm back in SA generally, although one doesnt know it, until its no longer needed.

[Bageloo]

Here in the US, an elderly couple who run their own little cafe, fended off two would-be robbers by themselves, and they're big heroes, on all the chat shows..

In SA they'd be a small news item on page 3, when their bodies were discovered.

But that aside - I agree re the attitude of JFK officials at point of entry - had similar experience. Maybe its a good thing, to have those kinds of d1ckheads manning the desks at the entry to the country, bad for PR but good for security.. Never had that level of unease, and nervousness since, from any other Gov officials - so maybe its a deliberate thing..

re the sameness of days.. yeah, agreed. But on the other hand, I havent even thought of my own safety, or my partners, on any level, in months. She can be out at 10 at night, and I'm not worried at all. One can't say the same back in SA..
And on the plus side, here, things just 'work'. Somethings wrong, its fixed, fast. There's a level of speed to just about any services you can think of - from post through to internet (unlimited) - which means less time spent in a state of frustration or anger, which is the norm back in SA generally, although one doesnt know it, until its no longer needed. Are you saying that your life in the US is free of worry? What is your partner doing out at 10 at night whilst you are at home? I think you should be worried either way pal!

[Leitmotif]

Are you saying that your life in the US is free of worry? What is your partner doing out at 10 at night whilst you are at home? I think you should be worried either way pal!

*That* is the best that you can come up with? You've never needed to get anything from a shop at 10? You don't allow your [-]posession[/-] [-]insignificant other[/-] partner to go out and enjoy herself with friends? To go and visit family or friends on her own? To come home late from work or a function?

Go back to the 18th century. Stop trying to weight the scales. There isn't enough lead in the world to make people's worries overseas equal to those here.

[LoneGunman]

re do I have a life free of 'worry' here in the US - if by 'worry' you mean 'any fear of violence'.. then yes :)
re partner out while I'm at home, na nothing to worry about - she's a teacher at a night school.. so classes are from 7pm-10pm :P

Unlike SA, here its normal to see lone women ambling around to and from work/going out, at all hours of the night - there's no violence, almost no crime (in the SA sense) so the society here just keeps on going, although its night time.. people are out on the streets everywhere, strolling, going places.. Just like you see in the movies and TV shows..its totally outside the normal experience of modern SA. Here 'night time' just means 'its getting dark' - it doesnt mean 'lock up' or 'be nervous' or anything negative.

[Bageloo]

*That* is the best that you can come up with? You've never needed to get anything from a shop at 10? You don't allow your [-]posession[/-] [-]insignificant other[/-] partner to go out and enjoy herself with friends? To go and visit family or friends on her own? To come home late from work or a function?

Go back to the 18th century. Stop trying to weight the scales. There isn't enough lead in the world to make people's worries overseas equal to those here.
Why don't you relax pal. It was just a joke! For someone who has no worries you sure sound tense! :-)

[Leitmotif]

Why don't you relax pal. It was just a joke! For someone who has no worries you sure sound tense! :-)

I live in SA, so I *do* have worries...

The humour of your statement seems to have escaped me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Highflyer_GP]

How much, if any, of this is derived from personal experience? From mine, foreigners are more-often-than-not met more with a sense of curiosity than anything else and not with abject discrimination.

Not referring to the way the general population treats foreigners (which admittedly is rather friendly) - basically in and around airports and with most cops. Maybe I should have stated that being a foreigner there was a misery around almost any type of law enforcement figure.

[Bageloo]

I live in SA, so I *do* have worries...

The humour of your statement seems to have escaped me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Oh I thought you were also in the US, my bad. Even if you are in SA, worrying will not solve any of your problems and is bad for your health.

[bb_matt]

The UK is the Dogs Bollocks.

We have CCTV cameras which can chastise you.

But it's still the Dogs Bollocks.

We have seventeen levels of credit checks to get a rental

But it's still the Dogs Kahuna's.

We have institutionalised racism

But it's still the Mutts Nuts

I like it here, it's for the Dogs!

[LoneGunman]

and this is what drinking in a happy society, and then posting on MyAdsl, can do to you :P

[kilo39]

Seems bb_matt is slowly learning. Of the realities of the environment.

[JTech]

It must be wonderul living in a country like the USA.
For a certain few from this country yes. I am rather glad I live in sunny SA. At least here, much less risk of being sued into the ground for stupid ****!

[Syndyre]

At this point my mom and I are laughing as we are reading about all the people who are applying for ancestoral/work visas to NZ/Australia/UK/Spain/USA/etc. We even have all their ID information right there with us. We could have grabbed loads of personal data on people! but didn't.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Good to know privacy's so important to them!

[bwana]

For a certain few from this country yes. I am rather glad I live in sunny SA. At least here, much less risk of being sued into the ground for stupid ****!No - not much less.

[Syndyre]

How much, if any, of this is derived from personal experience? From mine, foreigners are more-often-than-not met more with a sense of curiosity than anything else and not with abject discrimination.

Well my personal experience in the US has been wholly positive, never faced any discrimination from immigration, law enforcement or anyone else. On the contrary they were much more helpful than anybody in SA! That's been my general experience overseas anyway. Strangest comment I got was from a store employee: "Oh you're from A-frica, is that where all the wars are and stuff?" :D

[Aqua_lung]

Here in the US...

If you're in the US, why is your location set as South Africa?

It's confusing

[Bumzilla]

Another thing I liked about the US is their police force. They don't just accept any lone stranger walking down ther street into their ranks. The potential candidate first has to have 2 years college before being accepted into police acadamy. I think SA ought to do something like this first so they can instill some moral and ethical values in these monkeys here. Try bribing a cop in the US and see where it'll land you...

Don't get me wrong, I love SA, but would prefer to live in a country where politicians work for the people and not for themselves first. Seems to be a trend in African countries though

[LoneGunman]

re my location.. hadnt even thought about it before.. will adjust it.. didnt mean to confuse you :P
(assuming of course you then believe that where someones profile says they're from is 'the truth' )

[Bageloo]

Another thing I liked about the US is their police force. They don't just accept any lone stranger walking down ther street into their ranks. The potential candidate first has to have 2 years college before being accepted into police acadamy. I think SA ought to do something like this first so they can instill some moral and ethical values in these monkeys here. Try bribing a cop in the US and see where it'll land you...
two years college educatiuon does not instill moral/ethical values!!!!!!
Some of the white collar criminals in our country have PHD's and masters degrees! College does not instill sh*t. Some of these guys are involved in corruption, drug smuggling, etc ?

[bb_matt]

Yes, my drunken outbursts - with underlying truth.

The UK and USA have huge amounts of troubles and issues, but the overall feeling I have now is one of safety from a high level of crime. This safety has the result of a better quality of life in terms of society.

While financially, the standard of living I had in SA has dropped, on all other levels, the quality of my life has improved. As I've stated before, this also has a lot to do with me as a person, as well as SA as a country.

One of the most profound things I discovered on returning to the UK after so many years, was the overall higher level of intelligent conversation.

While a vast percentage of the population here are ignorant on many levels, there's enough people who make an effort to think to make it easier to meet them.

I now look on South Africa as being a cultural wasteland by comparison, but it entirely depends what your personal needs are.

When you can have a rewarding chat with your local butcher, bus driver or cleaner about subjects such as books, film and music, you know your in a society where your career and possessions don't really matter that much.

Another striking aspect - there's very little talk of money in the general day to day dealings with people. The average SA office conversation revolves around who bought what, who owns what, who wants what and who is a rich tos5er.

My average office conversations are just too random to believe - hilarious, interesting, disgusting - with no talk about who has what. We went from Spike Milligan, to Daleks with french accents, to jokes so sick they can't be listed here, to womens privates (a popular topic), to Ghandi - and all of that in 20 minutes.

It's wonderful!

But hey, lets not dwell on negative comparisons too much, there are aspects of SA I do miss - the big open skies, the feeling of limitless possibility (now weighed down under a cloud of crime), the stable weather - yes, these are things I miss.

Negatives about the UK?

The weather - yes, it truly does suck, not because it rains all the time (because it doesn't), but because there is simply too much of it.
It's common to have 4 seasons in a day. The weather can change so quickly, it's virtually impossible to forecast. The 5 day forecast you read at 7am, is already different by lunchtime.

Cost of living - it is insanely expensive to live in the UK, depending of course where you want to live! - if you want a reasonably attractive area to live in, you pay through the nose. Eating out is simply too expensive to do any more than every month, whereas in SA, I would eat out at least once a week. An average meal here, at for example a curry house, can set you back R450 a head for the basics. (stater, mains, desert, glass of wine)
A 5km taxi cab ride can cost up to R130.

The environment - this is a tricky one, but a lot of England is cramped, ugly and dirty, but the interesting thing, is that there's so much countryside you can't help wonder why it's so cramped - the reason is a few thousand years of history. There are, however, many stunningly beautiful places.
I'm so glad I don't live in London, but rather in a friendly and traditional little English village - costs a damn fortune, but it comes back to quality of life.

Yeah, enuff rambling, need to get dinner ready and watch heroes ...

[Syndyre]

two years college educatiuon does not instill moral/ethical values!!!!!!

Yeah but it is a bonus when your police force is at least literate :D

[neio]

My First impressions of South America, Cheap, cheerfull, people dont earn a lot of money, electronics very expensive (actually same as SA).
Lots of bribary and corruption but people are still treated with respect, the wild wild west indeed, I like's it, could settle down here very easily.
Internet free, wireless networks are not secured.

Av salary is $ 800 US a month.

[Dmitrimm]

Depends where you live in SA.. I've taken a year and half off work to complete a short animated film before going overseas. Moved back in with my parents (cheap rent :D ) in a country town about 100km from Cape Town. Though not practical for most people (decent employment opportunities are few) - life here is completely different than in SA cities. Not having to worry about crime for the first time in 8 years is..weird.

I'm sure the crime wave will reach this place eventually..

[vespax]

My First impressions of South America, Cheap, cheerfull, people dont earn a lot of money, electronics very expensive (actually same as SA).
Lots of bribary and corruption but people are still treated with respect, the wild wild west indeed, I like's it, could settle down here very easily.
Internet free, wireless networks are not secured.

Av salary is $ 800 US a month.

Are we talking about South Africa, South America, UK, USA?

South America is a whole different ball game. I would move there in a second if I had the chance. Walking around Lima, Peru with my South African wife at midnight trying to find our friends house and no one bothered us. Perfect. And yes this friends house was in an area that would be considered a rough township in S Africa! :eek:

Why do they not have the crime like we do? Answer that and we can start to make some progress here...

[PeterCH]

Those rules (Castle whatnot) only apply to permanent residents or citizens though. Although their constitution does protect 'all people' in certain instances.