Which Christianity is the right Christianity?

[bk.ru]

After reading through a whole lot of the posts here posted by Christian folk and watching how they almost every other post say, "well those Christians are not real Christians" or, "My Christianity is not a religion".

Excuse me for been a little confused here but which Christianity is the correct one? Is it Catholicism? Jehovah`s Witness or Calvinism? Is it better to be a born again, NG Kerke or Baptist?

What makes your Christianity different from other people`s Christianity, and what makes your one right over theirs?

[teraside]

There is only one Christianity. What the Bible teaches.

John 3:16
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


The rest are belief systems that came from these principles, some may be right, some may be wrong, you have to discern each day.

[Edwe]

None of them are wrong - they're just different. It depends on your personality. It's NG for me, but I'm not saying the other churches and variations are wrong.

By the way, you should have posted this in the "Philisophical Debates" section ==> I like to move it, move it; you like to MOVE IT :D

[bk.ru]

None of them are wrong - they're just different. It depends on your personality. It's NG for me, but I'm not saying the other churches and variations are wrong.

By the way, you should have posted this in the "Philisophical Debates" section ==> I like to move it, move it; you like to MOVE IT :D

Can I move the post myself? I have marked this for a mod to move already.

Now back to this thread. Then howcome the Catholics here are treated as not been true Christians. Should you wish I can dig up the posts where a number of people have mentioned that Catholicism is not Christianity. I do not agree with this point.

[Edwe]

Can I move the post myself? I have marked this for a mod to move already.

No, but it would be helpful if we could.



Now back to this thread. Then howcome the Catholics here are treated as not been to Christians. Should you wish I can dig up the posts where a number of people have mentioned that Catholicism is not Christianity. I do not agree with this point.

Well, Catholicism is a very different kind of Christianity. I don't know but about it, I must admit. I assume it developed much later than the Protestant versions of Christianity?

[Captain Beer]

My friend says that the Seventh Day Adventists are the true Xtians :D

[bk.ru]

Well, Catholicism is a very different kind of Christianity. I don't know but about it, I must admit. I assume it developed much later than the Protestant versions of Christianity?

No, Protastant is an offbreak of Catholicism. Once upon a time there was a king we didnt like the pope. So he said, instead of the pope being the head of the church. I am! And now we have the C.hurch of England.

If Christianity is the same, then why are the Protestants killing the Catholics? All does not look the same if people are dying for it. For the record, as far as modern day Christianity goes, the Catholics are basically the originals. They evolved from the Christian Orthodox Church, and have been around longer than all the new upstarts.

[Edwe]

My friend says that the Seventh Day Adventists are the true Xtians :D

Why? Because they observe the sabbath on Saturdays? That's just a silly little detail - it doesn't matter on which day the sabbath is. People who argue about such trivial things are really missing the fundamental principles of Christianity.

[Captain Beer]

Why? Because they observe the sabbath on Saturdays? That's just a silly little detail - it doesn't matter on which day the sabbath is. People who argue about such trivial things are really missing the fundamental principles of Christianity.

lol. He sat me down oneday and asked me how I expected to get to heaven if I didn't attend church on a Saturday and read many Ellen G White books :D But whatever works for him I guess.

[bk.ru]

Why? Because they observe the sabbath on Saturdays? That's just a silly little detail - it doesn't matter on which day the sabbath is. People who argue about such trivial things are really missing the fundamental principles of Christianity.

Says your version of Christianity. A Jehovah`s witness I had the pleasure of debating and learning from explained to me, that the Bible is to be taken literally, not figuratively.

Are they wrong and you correct? I am doing my best to understand whats going on here, but the different sects appear to have vastly different interpretations of the Bible.

[Nanfeishen]

@Bk, what it boils down to is mans ego, and the desperate desire for the followers of each version, to try and desperately prove to all and sundry, that their way, and only their way is correct.
Basically a case of who's got the longest/biggest ***** and who can **** the furthest. :D

[Mr TB]

I share such believes basically only on a personal level, when i am sure the next person will not be insulted. When i am convinced the other person are looking for christ in his life.

I will share the cornerstone of the christian faith with a person and that fit over many denominations although they differ concerning matters that are not soul saving...

[Mr TB]

@Bk, what it boils down to is mans ego, and the desperate desire for the followers of each version, to try and desperately prove to all and sundry, that their way, and only their way is correct.
Basically a case of who's got the longest/biggest ***** and who can **** the furthest. :D

That of course is rather negative for both parties...

[Nick333]

Well, Catholicism is a very different kind of Christianity. I don't know but about it, I must admit. I assume it developed much later than the Protestant versions of Christianity?

Try as I might, I can't leave this post alone.
If you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism, as is apparent, how do you know its a very different form of Christianity?
Developed much later than Protestant versions? What do you think the Protestants were protesting against?
Why do you think the Dutch settlers brought the NGK to this country in the first place?

How is this level of ignorance even possible?

[Napalm]

Christianity is different to each person. Each one's might be different.

Some people Christians must goto an church..
some people believe any home is a Church.


For me its the belief in god, in good, and in the afterlife.

[Edwe]

If you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism, as is apparent, how do you know its a very different form of Christianity?

Because I don't understand anything about that which I have seen of the Catholic faith and I understand my own faith well, therefore it is obviously different to my faith.


Developed much later than Protestant versions? What do you think the Protestants were protesting against?
Why do you think the Dutch settlers brought the NGK to this country in the first place?

Good point.


How is this level of ignorance even possible?

I already admitted I don't know much about the Catholic faith (i.e. I am ignorant on the subject) so what purpose does calling me "ignorant" serve? :confused:

[Flippit]

About the split of Catholicism/Protestantism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/95_Theses

[Neo]

What I find interesting from all the various topics and posts are the different views (all by self confessed Christians) on how the bible must be interpreted.

- Some say the bible must be taken literally. (Including all the weird science, atrocities, etc.)
- Others say it should not be taken literally. (But cannot explain the OT this way)
- Yet others, say it should sometimes be taken literally but other times not. (But can't show which parts)

- Some say the Old Testament is valid and should be obeyed. (Including the laws)
- Other say the New Testament replaces the OT. (But cannot show where it says so)
- Yet other say only part of the OT is made redundant by the NT. (But cannot show which parts)
- Others claim some laws in the OT were God's but other were Moses's (But can't show the distinction)
- Some say direct contradictory statements by Jesus and others are both correct (But can't explain it)

Yet all these Christians claim the bible is the 'Word of God' written by direct 'Divine inspiration'.

So, if Christians can't even agree on how to interpret a book right in front of them, I'm not surprised that there are so many sub-factions all claiming their way is the correct one.

[Nick333]

I already admitted I don't know much about the Catholic faith (i.e. I am ignorant on the subject) so what purpose does calling me "ignorant" serve? :confused:

I'm not calling you ignorant per se, other than in that we are all ignorant about most things.

What astounds me is that someone could be this ignorant about the history of their own religion. You could argue that the history of your religion is less important than what it teaches, but surely the validity of what it teaches is supported by where its teachings originate?

[Nick333]

Christianity is different to each person. Each one's might be different.

Some people Christians must goto an church..
some people believe any home is a Church.


For me its the belief in god, in good, and in the afterlife.

That defines a number of religions core beliefs, not just Christianities.
Christianity would require at least a belief in divine inspiration for Christs teachings surely?

[Mr TB]

I'm not calling you ignorant per se, other than in that we are all ignorant about most things.

What astounds me is that someone could be this ignorant about the history of their own religion. You could argue that the history of your religion is less important than what it teaches, but surely the validity of what it teaches is supported by where its teachings originate?

You do not believe god exist, so in the first place you have no authority to say anything about how is necessary to know for your salvation, you indeed have no authority...

All you wish do is cause do evil and cause confusion in ranks of those who believe, if you do not believe that god exist you are actually satan's child that is part of the teaching, you are wicked and you do wicked things trying to drive gods children away from him to your own downfall...but stay ignorant...

[Pr⊕phet]

What astounds me is that someone could be this ignorant about the history of their own religion


exactly - and most of them do that. any religion should teach their true history upfront if not them they
have things to hide...



All you wish do is cause do evil and cause confusion in ranks of those who believe, if you do not believe that god exist you are actually satan's child that is part of the teaching, you are wicked and you do wicked things trying to drive gods children away from him to your own downfall...but stay ignorant...


thats judge dred douwdouw for you...superstitions i tell you ;)


but stay ignorant...
Hos 4:6 (NIV) My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

[Pr⊕phet]

What I find interesting from all the various topics and posts are the different views (all by self confessed Christians) on how the bible must be interpreted.

- Some say the bible must be taken literally. (Including all the weird science, atrocities, etc.)
- Others say it should not be taken literally. (But cannot explain the OT this way)
- Yet others, say it should sometimes be taken literally but other times not. (But can't show which parts)

- Some say the Old Testament is valid and should be obeyed. (Including the laws)
- Other say the New Testament replaces the OT. (But cannot show where it says so)
- Yet other say only part of the OT is made redundant by the NT. (But cannot show which parts)
- Others claim some laws in the OT were God's but other were Moses's (But can't show the distinction)
- Some say direct contradictory statements by Jesus and others are both correct (But can't explain it)

Yet all these Christians claim the bible is the 'Word of God' written by direct 'Divine inspiration'.

So, if Christians can't even agree on how to interpret a book right in front of them, I'm not surprised that there are so many sub-factions all claiming their way is the correct one.

like political parties and their promises to the masses ;)

...to many chefs in the kitchen

[icyrus]

After reading through a whole lot of the posts here posted by Christian folk and watching how they almost every other post say, "well those Christians are not real Christians" or, "My Christianity is not a religion".

Excuse me for been a little confused here but which Christianity is the correct one? Is it Catholicism? Jehovah`s Witness or Calvinism? Is it better to be a born again, NG Kerke or Baptist?

What makes your Christianity different from other people`s Christianity, and what makes your one right over theirs?

Obviously the "right" one is the one that collects the most money from their [-]brainwashed masses[/-] followers by judgement day. I hear the admission fees for heaven are a real bitch. ;)

[Captain Beer]

All you wish do is cause do evil and cause confusion in ranks of those who believe, if you do not believe that god exist you are actually satan's child that is part of the teaching, you are wicked and you do wicked things trying to drive gods children away from him to your own downfall...but stay ignorant...

You really believe that? So i'm Satan's child? And you're his bitch :D

Dude you are the one ****ing up Christianity, next week i'm gonna stand outside your church and preach about Satan being the savior ;)

[Prometheus]

Now back to this thread. Then howcome the Catholics here are treated as not been true Christians. Should you wish I can dig up the posts where a number of people have mentioned that Catholicism is not Christianity. I do not agree with this point.
Probably because we see so many contradictions to what is said by Jesus that we see them as kinda being in their own league. :D

No, Protastant is an offbreak of Catholicism. Once upon a time there was a king we didnt like the pope. So he said, instead of the pope being the head of the church. I am! And now we have the C.hurch of England.

If Christianity is the same, then why are the Protestants killing the Catholics? All does not look the same if people are dying for it. For the record, as far as modern day Christianity goes, the Catholics are basically the originals. They evolved from the Christian Orthodox Church, and have been around longer than all the new upstarts.
The way I see it is that you have religion A and person 1 and 2 who will one day bash each other's heads in for their wide conflicting views so person 2 forms religion B. Later person 3 wants to hit person 1 but he doesn't agree with person 2 so he forms religion C and person 1 who isn't very popular vanishes with religion A for some time. Now person 4 has a disagreement with person 3 (of religion C) and forms religion D. With me so far? I knew you'd be. Then persons 3 and 5 (of religion C) change their views but can't come to an agreement so they form religions E and F instead. Later person 6 comes along and discovers religion A and decides that religion A is the original so follows that instead. Easy hey? ;) In a sense they are all 2000 years old.

Obviously the "right" one is the one that collects the most money from their [-]brainwashed masses[/-] followers by judgement day. I hear the admission fees for heaven are a real bitch. ;)
Admission fee is you only have to ask and be sincere. ;)

[Neo]

like political parties and their promises to the masses ;)

...to many chefs in the kitchen

In a sense, yes. Just like religious groups, political parties have their own agendas to pursue. And just like political parties, the ultimate goal for religious groups, is the control of power.

At least political parties are open about it, even though they use the same claim as the religious groups (doing it for the better of the common man) to achieve power.

But you never hear political parties argue about how the constitution should be 'interpreted'. They might not agree with it, but they understand it.

Not so the bible.

[The Cosmos]

The right Christianity is a balance between Eph 2:8, and Matt 15:24.

[BCO]

You do not believe god exist, so in the first place you have no authority to say anything about how is necessary to know for your salvation, you indeed have no authority...

All you wish do is cause do evil and cause confusion in ranks of those who believe, if you do not believe that god exist you are actually satan's child that is part of the teaching, you are wicked and you do wicked things trying to drive gods children away from him to your own downfall...but stay ignorant...

Rofl @ douwdouw. You're a very amusing character. Just so you know, people who don't believe in Christianity/God can still know the tenets of the religion and debate it accordingly. Just because he doesn't believe in Christ doesn't mean he knows nothing about Christianity.

In fact, it might be argued that the people who know the most about Jesus/Christianity/God are the ones who are unbelievers. Only those blinded by faith could actually believe in this stuff.

[Shake&Bake]

The one that doesn't ask these kinda questions. People get too hyped and believe too much rather than just make peace with themselves and their surroundings. No matter which religion - and I am Christian and not the kind that ever bothers with these kinda responses, but it's monday with a hangover... I digress...No matter which...it's all up to you. Religions vary in how they "measure" your faith - that should gain you entry into heaven blah blah blah - but I like what the Dead Sea Scrolls say... Find and keep God within yourself, not within the confines of 4 walls.
Note that is not a direct quote or anything, just the basic outline of it. Ok Done and please don't tell anyone I've been here...My REp!! HAHA:cool: :p

[VernD]

Why? Because they observe the sabbath on Saturdays? That's just a silly little detail - it doesn't matter on which day the sabbath is. People who argue about such trivial things are really missing the fundamental principles of Christianity.

Seventh Day Adventists observe the advent of the sabbath, that's why they are called Seventh Day Adventists - this doesn't meant that the observe Saturday as the Sabbath; the still observe Sunday as the sabbath. Just wanted to clear up that matter.:)

[fivelza]

I tend to keep it simple regarding this: Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians (God's frozen chosen ;) ), Baptists etc. are denominations of Christianity. Each have their own doctrines.

Heaven help us if as Christians we start argue which one is the 'correct' one to follow. This is also evident by the number of 'non-denominational' churches out there as well.

[Nick333]

All you wish do is cause do evil and cause confusion in ranks of those who believe, if you do not believe that god exist you are actually satan's child that is part of the teaching, you are wicked and you do wicked things trying to drive gods children away from him to your own downfall...but stay ignorant...

Rofl. Indeed, you've sniffed out my true intentions. Great and mighty Satan has granted me the power to confuse weak minds as you say. All I had to do in return was sacrifice a few babies. I revel in wickedness. It makes me feel so...well...wicked.

Wait that can't be right...Satan is a just a FIGMENT OF YOUR WARPED AND FEVERED IMAGININGS.






Or is he...? Bwahahaha.

Oh Ja, enjoy burning in hell. For ever and ever Amen.

[noxibox]

Just remember there's no rest for the wicked. Not even the really, really wicked.

Those wicked folk surely do have a strong work ethic.

[Claymore]

There is only one Christianity. What the Bible teaches.

However, the early Christians had no Bible to go by. Were they not Christians then?

[Shake&Bake]

I tend to keep it simple regarding this: Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians (God's frozen chosen ;) ), Baptists etc. are denominations of Christianity. Each have their own doctrines.

Heaven help us if as Christians we start argue which one is the 'correct' one to follow. This is also evident by the number of 'non-denominational' churches out there as well.

Pity I can't send an alarm bell to the top of your screen...but Christians have been arguing for all eternity. From the time that the Roman Empire burnt out villages, to the Pope who wears Prada. Do you think, have you ever heard of churches colluding to help one another in the eternal struggle for life after death? I'll get this one for you - NO! Why? Because the one's "Code of Conduct" is not gonna run down well with the other... I personally can't do the "HanneKlop", fainting and panting like hyenas shananigans! Nutshell! They, we are! Nick333 burn on you wicked beast, let us all fall victim to the sins of the flesh!!!!!! ha ha,,,,,ha:cool:

[teraside]

However, the early Christians had no Bible to go by. Were they not Christians then?

They had Jesus Christ to teach them my friend, the physical embodiment of God. Let me spice up a few things here today, do you all who say you are Christians believe in Jesus? That's the requirement of a Christian, like I said in the second post.


Matthew 19:13 to end
The Little Children and Jesus
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

The Rich Young Man
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.


John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.


John 6:29
Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
Belief in Christ, giving up all your desires and motives, fully turning away from the world and following Jesus, that equals being a Christian.

Did you know that Christ, His Father (Which is my Father) and the Holy Spirit was crucified? Did you know that?


Matthew 19:5-14
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

The Father was crucified with the Son and so was the Spirit, they are ONE! They are inseperable, they are one body, one in completeness.
The Father lived with the Son and so with the Spirit, together they are Alpha and Omega, the Lord is one.

Before Jesus there was no Christianity, there was only belief in God,

[Mr TB]

I tend to keep it simple regarding this: Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians (God's frozen chosen ;) ), Baptists etc. are denominations of Christianity. Each have their own doctrines.

Heaven help us if as Christians we start argue which one is the 'correct' one to follow. This is also evident by the number of 'non-denominational' churches out there as well.

Yeah, at a point in time it was indeed the case, especially between the afrikanertjies, oh man did i not take stick at school...
Now... when i look back it was pointless, nobody gained except those who wanted to wet themselves seeing my shoulders hang and tears in mine eyes.

Yes as kids we were very cruel but now it is different...

[Mr TB]

They had Jesus Christ to teach them my friend, the physical embodiment of God. Let me spice up a few things here today, do you all who say you are Christians believe in Jesus? That's the requirement of a Christian, like I said in the second post.





Belief in Christ, giving up all your desires and motives, fully turning away from the world and following Jesus, that equals being a Christian.

Did you know that Christ, His Father (Which is my Father) and the Holy Spirit was crucified? Did you know that?





The Father was crucified with the Son and so was the Spirit, they are ONE! They are inseperable, they are one body, one in completeness.
The Father lived with the Son and so with the Spirit, together they are Alpha and Omega, the Lord is one.

Before Jesus there was no Christianity, there was only belief in God,

I will not argue , but look at my view. Jesus prayed to "our Father who art in heaven"... Jesus also prayed to his Father... Jesus went and showed himself to the Father after crucifiction...the perfect sacrifice...then came back for 40 days to teach... The Spirit of god hovers... Jesus says he will send the Holy spirit...
There are 3 persons but only one GOD... LET US...
Jesus was crucified hands his spirit to the Father and the Holy Spirit resurrected him...

[teraside]

I agree with you Douw Douw, and it's just an issue that I feel the Holy Spirit is dealing with me, I may be right in my conclusion, or I may be wrong,

I heard a lovely rhing the other day, someone mentioned this:

"could we be wrong about this popular
interpratation of sricpture and miss the heart of God?"

God bless you Douw Douw!

[Pr⊕phet]

btw imho
Jesuz/Christianity is not in a book, group/sect nor in a building but he and it should be in you heart.

[Mr TB]

btw imho
Jesuz/Christianity is not in a book, group/sect nor in a building but he and it should be in you heart.

So true, he lives in those who accept him as savior yes sir so true..

[Aqua_lung]

The 'Right' Christianity is the one that was taught by Jesus in person, after that everything got a bit confusing, like this thread mentioned, Catholics vs Protestant etc..

[Prometheus]

But you never hear political parties argue about how the constitution should be 'interpreted'. They might not agree with it, but they understand it.

Not so the bible.
Ahem

In fact, it might be argued that the people who know the most about Jesus/Christianity/God are the ones who are unbelievers. Only those blinded by faith could actually believe in this stuff.
They only know what is written, not what is not written. ;)

[Neo]

Did you know that Christ, His Father (Which is my Father) and the Holy Spirit was crucified? Did you know that?

No I don't know this and neither do you or anyone else on this forum.

You might believe it, but you don't know.

Don't confuse knowledge with faith (which, by definition, is believing something without evidence).

[Claymore]

They had Jesus Christ to teach them my friend, the physical embodiment of God.

For a good 250-300 years, the early Christians did not have Jesus himself, nor did they have the Bible to go by. The best they had was fragmented teachings from various people. So I'm not sure it would be correct to say that the Bible is essential in order to be a Christian.

[Prometheus]

For a good 250-300 years, the early Christians did not have Jesus himself, nor did they have the Bible to go by. The best they had was fragmented teachings from various people. So I'm not sure it would be correct to say that the Bible is essential in order to be a Christian.
No, Jesus is essential.

[bk.ru]

No, Jesus is essential.

Do you agree with the book of Mormon?

[Prometheus]

Do you agree with the book of Mormon?
Don't know much about it but would rather stick to Jesus' own words.

[bk.ru]

Don't know much about it but would rather stick to Jesus' own words.

They do to, they just do not believe in the Bible. They have their own one, the Book of Mormon. Its origins are actually hilarious, but thats a whole different topic all together... but its worth Wiki`ing :)

[Claymore]

No, Jesus is essential.

That's exactly what I think.


Don't know much about it but would rather stick to Jesus' own words.

Yet much of that was discarded in the early years...other gospels for example.

[Mr TB]

That's exactly what I think.



Yet much of that was discarded in the early years...other gospels for example.

Let's not argue about the Bible but see if the Bible "confirm" itself if you don't mind the quote:

For instance: GENESIS- Creation 7 days
REVELATION- 7 churches
GOSPEL JOHN- 7 miracles
and the clever analysts indicate 7 dispensations from Genesis to Revelation between GOD and mankind. Apparently we are living in the 6th called GRACE.

[pongo]

Hos 4:6 (NIV) My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.

where can I find this book of hos!? because I lerned in the da vinci code that mary magdoline wasnt a ho and was rly jesuses wife! :eek: wot do the hos say bout that???!!

[fivelza]

Lol hos = hosea

[Mr TB]

No, Protastant is an offbreak of Catholicism. Once upon a time there was a king we didnt like the pope. So he said, instead of the pope being the head of the church. I am! And now we have the C.hurch of England.

If Christianity is the same, then why are the Protestants killing the Catholics? All does not look the same if people are dying for it. For the record, as far as modern day Christianity goes, the Catholics are basically the originals. They evolved from the Christian Orthodox Church, and have been around longer than all the new upstarts.

All does not look the same if people are dying for it. For the record, as far as modern day Christianity goes, the Catholics are basically the originals.

... mmm... ...stop looking back bk.ru... a prime example of someone who never would have done anything for christ if he kept on looking back is PAUL.

Read Acts he was a pharisee approving the stoning of the first martyr Steven but once converted never looked back...

Secondlly please stop blaming christianity for the deeds of people, the anti-christ is going to claim he is christ... His deeds will be claimed by people like you to be christ's deeds, can you see what statements you are making?

[simple_simon]

Excuse me for been a little confused here but which Christianity is the correct one?

its always the one to the left

[Prometheus]

They do to, they just do not believe in the Bible. They have their own one, the Book of Mormon. Its origins are actually hilarious, but thats a whole different topic all together... but its worth Wiki`ing :)
They still use Jesus' words from the Bible or parts of it anyway don't they?

[bk.ru]

They still use Jesus' words from the Bible or parts of it anyway don't they?

Thats why I said wiki it, so you would actually learn something :D Come on kido, you can do it.

[Prometheus]

"Along with the Bible, which is also held by Latter Day Saints to be the Word of God, the Book of Mormon is esteemed as part of the canon by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,"
"In 1982, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints added the subtitle Another Testament of Jesus Christ to its editions of the book to help clarify and emphasize its purpose."

They do believe in the Bible although not exclusively and hold the Book of Mormon in equal regard. It can not be mormonism without either of these. It is still founded on the priciples Jesus taught and on Christianity.

[teraside]

No it's not bro, the Mormons actually believe God lives on a certain planet, not too far from earth and that He has sex with different goddesses and so on, I doubt a wiki search will give you the truth, they are snakes in disguise, you get drawn into this bogus crap by studying it.


Here's the truth:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Mormon.html

[bk.ru]

"Along with the Bible, which is also held by Latter Day Saints to be the Word of God, the Book of Mormon is esteemed as part of the canon by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,"
"In 1982, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints added the subtitle Another Testament of Jesus Christ to its editions of the book to help clarify and emphasize its purpose."

They do believe in the Bible although not exclusively and hold the Book of Mormon in equal regard. It can not be mormonism without either of these. It is still founded on the priciples Jesus taught and on Christianity.

So its okay to make up stuff about God and Jesus, "as long as it includes the teachings of JC"? yay! be back later people, I am off to start another death worshipping cult!

[pongo]

No it's not bro, the Mormons actually believe God lives on a certain planet, not too far from earth and that He has sex with different goddesses and so on

kewl! if passion of the christ had spaceships and sexing godesseses it wudnt maybe have been so boring. also if it had been in english and not in armynian. Im pretty sure the romanian armys spoke english neway :(

[Prometheus]

No it's not bro, the Mormons actually believe God lives on a certain planet, not too far from earth and that He has sex with different goddesses and so on, I doubt a wiki search will give you the truth, they are snakes in disguise, you get drawn into this bogus crap by studying it.


Here's the truth:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Mormon.html
:eek: Didn't know any of that. Things are never what they look like on the surface. Confirms my point in another thread that too little knowledge repeated often enough can be a very dangerous thing.

[Balstrome]

Just remember there's no rest for the wicked. Not even the really, really wicked.

Those wicked folk surely do have a strong work ethic.

I point you to Blackadder : A Christmas Carol

[Balstrome]

One thing most folks tend to miss, is nowhere in the bible, is there actual confirmation that the words are realling God the Creator of Life, the Universe and everything. Most of the time, it is some human claiming things in the name of old "42

[honorablepassion]

you guys talk alot.. i'm kinda a fan of samuel clemens's research..
who said that the book of Mormon was a good bit of plagerism poorly written,
& that 'Christian Science' was void of logic (somethin towards that direction ;))
he also seemed to have high esteem for the Presbyterian church - which, is something that through all my research seems to be one of the better choices in dogma.
The freemasons are linked to the creation of many of the various cults; mormons, jehovas witnesses, christian science, theosophy (new age), scientology.. -- and many of the 'regular' churches are mason owned/operated. when biblically a Christian cannot join masonry. (for multiple reasons)
Not all churches that have a questionable dogma are the result of masonry, but I think the reluctance of people to follow the Bible and itchy ears makes it alot easier for masons to take control of (or create) churches that normally would not accept anti-Biblical teachings.

[Mr TB]

For a good 250-300 years, the early Christians did not have Jesus himself, nor did they have the Bible to go by. The best they had was fragmented teachings from various people. So I'm not sure it would be correct to say that the Bible is essential in order to be a Christian.

Christ before ascending to heaven promised his disciples he will send "The Parachletos" so christians will not be without him(christ), He will live in them and be our teacher...

It is not essential to have the bible, but essential to have christ and once you have christ the bible will become essential...

[Aqua_lung]

Christ before ascending to heaven promised his disciples he will send "The Parachletos" so christians will not be without him(christ), He will live in them and be our teacher...

So... did "The Parachletos" arrive?
This is news to me

[ghoti]

So... did "The Parachletos" arrive?
This is news to me

Did they bring pizza ?:)

[ToxicBunny]

and cold beer? ;)....

[Claymore]

It is not essential to have the bible, but essential to have christ and once you have christ the bible will become essential...

That does not make sense.

[Prometheus]

That does not make sense.
I think he means the Bible automatically comes with Christ.

[Claymore]

I think he means the Bible automatically comes with Christ.

Surely Christ is enough though?

[LoneGunman]

"I think he means the Bible automatically comes with Christ."

I've had a woman who came and yelled "Christ" at the same time, is this
the same thing?

[Debbie]

"I think he means the Bible automatically comes with Christ."

I've had a woman who came and yelled "Christ" at the same time, is this
the same thing?

:D :D :D

[Claymore]

When I went to my cousin's wedding a while back, the priest was rambling on about how the couple would be sharing their bedroom with Jesus, and my wife and I were having a really tough time suppressing giggles in the back.

[Neo]

Surely Christ is enough though?

Not really, Christianity is joined at the hip with the bible, both the old and new testaments. For example:

- Adam and Eve eat the apple and start fornicating. Original sin. From that day we're all doomed, born sinners by default.

- Jesus comes along and die for our sins. But if Adam and Eve never ate the apple, what's all this 'die for our sins' bit?

So to believe in Jesus's story (the bit about being the son of god and dying for our sins), you HAVE to believe in Adam and Eve. If you do that you get the OT, lock, stock and barrel. Including the most cruel, vindictive and petty god ever described in any text. And to believe in Christ himself, you have to accept the NT.

This is why fundamentalists will defend the literal interpretation of the bible and more 'enlightened' ones will try and find more and more esoteric interpretations as they know the literal interpretations are wrong. They can't directly denounce the bible as it rips the whole argument (for Christianity) from under them.

Without the bible, there is no Christianity. A dilemma Christians will always have to face.

So we have the spectacular mental and verbal gymnastics and juggling we see from Christians, trying to explain it all.

[Mr TB]

Not really, Christianity is joined at the hip with the bible, both the old and new testaments. For example:

- Adam and Eve eat the apple and start fornicating. Original sin. From that day we're all doomed, born sinners by default.

ll.

Adam and Eve eat the apple and start fornicating.
Question?
Are you sure the fruit was an apple because it is not stated in my version of the bible.
Are you sure it was fornication or was it disobediene to god? My bible says they saw they were naked, were ashamed of themselves covered themselves with fig leaves and hide when they heard god…
The original sin seems to be disobedience to god also the definition of sin.
Pleas do not falsify the truth…

[Mr TB]

Without the bible, there is no Christianity. A dilemma Christians will always have to face.



Oh really?... maybe you should think again...hehehe:p

[Neo]

Adam and Eve eat the apple and start fornicating.
Question?
Are you sure the fruit was an apple because it is not stated in my version of the bible.


Definitely an apple. Was one of those green/reddish crispy ones, nice and juicy.

Adam told Noah this, that same day he told Noah how God made him. (Remember?, you were there)

Noah then told a succession of people, my great-great-great grandfather being one of them, who then passed it down our family line.

So I have it on direct authority from Adam himself. Just like all the stuff you know about the bible that's not written anywhere.

[Neo]

Oh really?... maybe you should think again...hehehe:p

OK, so without referencing the bible once, explain Jesus the Christ (from where the words Christian and Christianity derive) to us.

Without the bible Christ does not exist. (Neither does original sin, Jesus's crucifixion, resurrection, Paul, the early church, etc.)

So therefore Christianity needs the bible. Without the bible you can claim some religious element, but it cannot (by definition) be Christianity. Comprehendo?

Proof me wrong.

[Prometheus]

When I went to my cousin's wedding a while back, the priest was rambling on about how the couple would be sharing their bedroom with Jesus, and my wife and I were having a really tough time suppressing giggles in the back.
hehehe

Adam and Eve eat the apple and start fornicating.
Question?
Are you sure the fruit was an apple because it is not stated in my version of the bible.
Are you sure it was fornication or was it disobediene to god? My bible says they saw they were naked, were ashamed of themselves covered themselves with fig leaves and hide when they heard god…
The original sin seems to be disobedience to god also the definition of sin.
Pleas do not falsify the truth…
I don't think it is stated in any bible. It is merely a common belief.

[qewrty]

The precise wording is that they ate of the tree of wisdom; and banned in case they were to go for the tree of life and death as well and become complete gods. This story can make sense in several ways, for instance as an initial means to explain man's ability to reason and make his own choices, he is like a god but can't live eternally.

As an atheist I know theres no god, but i think christianity will survive. The scholars call it a liberal movement; but in actual fact it's radical as it makes christianity compatible with atheism. Sam Harris interviews some of these christian atheists in his DVD extras of The God Who Wasn't There http://www.thegodmovie.com/

I know it sounds harsh but if you hear someone use the bible inappropriately as means of justifying breaking any laws, common sense or otherwise, have the courage to discuss it with them. My aunt is sending me tons of SMS's about the bible and how praying is the only hope for our country's problems.

I have to disturb her delusion as she is misguiding a lot of time and effort which could rather be spent on anything else. She is also using the bible to justify her morals, which if they were rational have been an issue. But now it is her excuse to be ignorant of the countries real problems which her generation didn't rush to change even though they called themselves christians. It also gives her the right to selectively follow something which has been misrepresented to her all her life.

Every decision you take you should be able to substantiate with the appropriate reasoning; the bible contains a lot of islamic laws: death as sentence for a myriad of morally wrong actions such as adultery. Loosing 50% of your possessions, paying child support and only being able to see the kids on alternative weekends is punishment enough. Occasionally I do break the speed limit, the fines are there but its not a death sentence, I do however accept the consequences. In some situations adultery is nothing more than just another sign of our animal ancestry; not worth the death penalty in any spectrum of rational morality.

[Neo]

The precise wording is that they ate of the tree of wisdom; and banned in case they were to go for the tree of life and death as well and become complete gods. This story can make sense in several ways, for instance as an initial means to explain man's ability to reason and make his own choices, he is like a god but can't live eternally.

This concept of the 'knowledge of good and bad' (that Adam acquired) and of the 'tree of life' that would have given eternal (or very long) life seems to be a throwback to the interventionists myths/theories that talk about how Adam was genetically engineered by aliens and how Adam became 'aware' (knowledge of good and bad) during the process. But the genetic engineering was stopped before they acquired the longevity of the aliens.

There are actually many nods and pointers to the ET theory in the bible, the 'sons of god' that came down and shagged the earth women, the giants that walked the earth at he time, etc.

None of these can be explained by a single god who created two people, but the ET theories explain them quite nicely.

One of the interesting side-effects of the theory is how it brings evolution and creatism (of humans, at least) together into a single unified theory.

[qewrty]

This concept of the 'knowledge of good and bad' (that Adam acquired) and of the 'tree of life' that would have given eternal (or very long) life seems to be a throwback to the interventionists myths/theories that talk about how Adam was genetically engineered by aliens and how Adam became 'aware' (knowledge of good and bad) during the process. But the genetic engineering was stopped before they acquired the longevity of the aliens.

There are actually many nods and pointers to the ET theory in the bible, the 'sons of god' that came down and shagged the earth women, the giants that walked the earth at he time, etc.

None of these can be explained by a single god who created two people, but the ET theories explain them quite nicely.

One of the interesting side-effects of the theory is how it brings evolution and creatism (of humans, at least) together into a single unified theory.

When I was in high school I had the same theory going. Much to my astonishment I found books and other information on the topic.

Most notable advocate of that theory is?was Erich Von Daniken. He went to places in the world where ancient ruines support the idea and wrote about what he saw. Since then archaeologists and others have refuted most of his evidence. Alien grays are said to be doctors with masks on and from a baby's undeveloped eyesight the birth scene becomes engraved as an abduction from a safe place.

The pyramids and all the other ancient secrets have been either explained by history/science or have been exceeded by achievement of more recent technology and architecture.

I don't care much for genesis except the fact that as you said it cannot be literally true that we are all born in sin or owe anything to anyone. Unless you have a credit card but there you are willingly entering into a credit agreement with a credit provider.

Most of the Pentateuch consists of the history of the jewish people, and although they all believe it there is not a lot of historical evidence to support most of it, for instance the scale of the jewish nation of david is severely overstated and there probably wasn't an exodus out of Egypt. Let alone Noa's ark and the tower of Babylon.

I think people forget how many of these myths there are in these books.

Christians should start saying they believe in the message of Jesus's mission, that non violence makes sense. We should co-operate with each other and simply withdraw if the co-op doesn't work out or is unbalanced. Retribution shouldn't be second nature (turn the other cheek). Be willing to die for what you believe in is debatable but at least acceptable if you can die saving your family or strangers.

[Mr TB]

When I was in high school I had the same theory going. Much to my astonishment I found books and other information on the topic.

Most notable advocate of that theory is?was Erich Von Daniken. He went to places in the world where ancient ruines support the idea and wrote about what he saw. Since then archaeologists and others have refuted most of his evidence. Alien grays are said to be doctors with masks on and from a baby's undeveloped eyesight the birth scene becomes engraved as an abduction from a safe place.

The pyramids and all the other ancient secrets have been either explained by history/science or have been exceeded by achievement of more recent technology and architecture.

I don't care much for genesis except the fact that as you said it cannot be literally true that we are all born in sin or owe anything to anyone. Unless you have a credit card but there you are willingly entering into a credit agreement with a credit provider.

Most of the Pentateuch consists of the history of the jewish people, and although they all believe it there is not a lot of historical evidence to support most of it, for instance the scale of the jewish nation of david is severely overstated and there probably wasn't an exodus out of Egypt. Let alone Noa's ark and the tower of Babylon.

I think people forget how many of these myths there are in these books.

Christians should start saying they believe in the message of Jesus's mission, that non violence makes sense. We should co-operate with each other and simply withdraw if the co-op doesn't work out or is unbalanced. Retribution shouldn't be second nature (turn the other cheek). Be willing to die for what you believe in is debatable but at least acceptable if you can die saving your family or strangers.
Why do you turn to christians and tell them to do that? What is your response if your family members are shot or your sister raped in front of your eyes?, are you allowed to react different because you don't believe. First look at yourself before pointing fingers at christians because you are expecting from them to do what you are not doing...

Now with all due respect that is acting like hypocrite, is it not?
Only a christian can reprimand another christian you have no right on earth to do that...

[Neo]

When I was in high school I had the same theory going. Much to my astonishment I found books and other information on the topic.

If you're interested in the subject read the (numerous) works of Zecharia Sitchin, starting with the '12th Planet'. Or the first few chapters of Alan Alford's, Gods of the New Millennium.

The theory is quite well developed and gives an fresh take on all the myths. Whereas von Daniken meddled with hte concepts, Sitchin as a biblical and ancient Sumerain scholar, brings lot more weight to the arguments.

Well worth the read.

[Claymore]

Most notable advocate of that theory is?was Erich Von Daniken. He went to places in the world where ancient ruines support the idea and wrote about what he saw. Since then archaeologists and others have refuted most of his evidence. Alien grays are said to be doctors with masks on and from a baby's undeveloped eyesight the birth scene becomes engraved as an abduction from a safe place.

The pyramids and all the other ancient secrets have been either explained by history/science or have been exceeded by achievement of more recent technology and architecture.

I actually think Von Daniken deliberately misled people. For example, he said it was impossible for the Egyptians to have built the pyramids, seeing as they had no rope. What he "forgot" to mention what that there were several km of ancient Egyptian rope on display in the British Museum...

[Neo]

I actually think Von Daniken deliberately misled people. For example, he said it was impossible for the Egyptians to have built the pyramids, seeing as they had no rope. What he "forgot" to mention what that there were several km of ancient Egyptian rope on display in the British Museum...

Von Daniken tends to nearly get the arguments right, but then looses the plot and thus credibility. (Bit like our own Prom :))

I don't consider Von Daniken much more than an amateur milking the subject for financial gain. Have you see his theme park?

[LoneGunman]

in the same vein as von Daniken, I'd recommend folks also dive into the various books by Graham Hancock,
like Fingerprints of the Gods.. which also show a much more mysterious and stranger probable past, than
the simplistic ones suggested by the bible..

re Zecharia Sitchin - he's a good read, but one should take some of his material cautiously, methinks..

The main thing is folks with questions should start reading. Read EVERYTHING and soak it all up, and get
a much wider view than dodo, who's frankly insanely ignorant..

[The Cosmos]

Traditional Christianity is the way to go !

[Mr TB]

in the same vein as von Daniken, I'd recommend folks also dive into the various books by Graham Hancock,
like Fingerprints of the Gods.. which also show a much more mysterious and stranger probable past, than
the simplistic ones suggested by the bible..

re Zecharia Sitchin - he's a good read, but one should take some of his material cautiously, methinks..

The main thing is folks with questions should start reading. Read EVERYTHING and soak it all up, and get
a much wider view than dodo, who's frankly insanely ignorant..


Frankly insane, must read everything need a wide view as possible,Who’s books did you read to widen your view?
TD Jakes and Jesse du Plantis
Philip Yancey, Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon, Rick Joyner, Max Lucado, William Barkley, Henry Blackaby, Merlin Carothers, Oral Roberts, Erwin Lutzer, Benny Hinn, Biquis Sheikh, Harold Hill, Paula White, Nicky Gumbell…etc…and of course most important the bible.

[bk.ru]

Frankly insane, must read everything need a wide view as possible,Who’s books did you read to widen your view?
TD Jakes and Jesse du Plantis
Philip Yancey, Billy Graham, Charles Spurgeon, Rick Joyner, Max Lucado, William Barkley, Henry Blackaby, Merlin Carothers, Oral Roberts, Erwin Lutzer, Benny Hinn, Biquis Sheikh, Harold Hill, Paula White, Nicky Gumbell…etc…and of course most important the bible.

http://russellsteapot.com/images/rsgallery/original/001100000.jpg

[Pr⊕phet]

Bk.RU... interesting of you really think about it

go.d coming to earth.
sacrificing himself, to allow himself to change a rule made by himself
thus saving us being sent to hell by him :eek:
---------------------------

anyways christianity is
.in your heart
.christ itself (hence the word CHRISTian)

definitly not:
.in a book
.in a building
.in a sect

...i can't seem to follow why a bunch of people would fight all the time on which part of a book, which building, which sect and teaching would be the more correcter on than the others, more Jesu.ser/Christianer and holyer.
---------------------------

[Neo]

The main thing is folks with questions should start reading. Read EVERYTHING and soak it all up, and get
a much wider view (than dodo, who's frankly insanely ignorant)..

Exactly.

[Neo]

http://russellsteapot.com/images/rsgallery/original/001100000.jpg

Excellent!

Sometimes a picture (or a cartoon, in this case) really speaks a (few) thousand words.....

[Mr TB]

Exactly.

Soak up the experience read MEIN KAMPF!

[ToxicBunny]

See now, thats missing the point douwdouw...

Read EVERYTHING, not just one specific book that suits the point you are trying to make.

[Neo]

See now, thats missing the point douwdouw...

Read EVERYTHING, not just one specific book that suits the point you are trying to make.

Dodo's problem is that he either believes you MUST agree with everything you read (and therefore he'd rather not read it) or he is scared that it will actually convince him (or allow the bad spirits to enter him....)

Dodo, books aren't evil. You don't need to be scared, it's OK. Really. Even My Struggle is a worthwhile read.

[ToxicBunny]

Neo : yeah, i've noticed that.. He doesn't understand the concept of reading a book, and then dismissing it as nonsense, like Mein Kampf.

Well at least I know I'm a bad spirit and just a bad influence all round....:)

[Neo]

Neo : yeah, i've noticed that.. He doesn't understand the concept of reading a book, and then dismissing it as nonsense, like Mein Kampf.

Well at least I know I'm a bad spirit and just a bad influence all round....:)

Mein Kampf gives very good insight in the thinking of the time and how we got into the mess of WW2.

Must say after I read it, I had no real desire to go out an kill a few Jews, so obviously I wasn't paying attention.....:rolleyes:

[ghoti]

I can say this about Mein Kampf and anyone who reads it. You will gain absolutely nothing at all from it. Imagine someone like dodo writing a book on morals... ja/nee

[Neo]

I can say this about Mein Kampf and anyone who reads it. You will gain absolutely nothing at all from it. Imagine someone like dodo writing a book on morals... ja/nee

Not sure if I agree, It gives us insight into the thinking of the single most influential person in modern history.

If it helps us detect future Hitlers, (before they gain any power), it's worth its weight in gold.

[ghoti]

Not sure if I agree, It gives us insight into the thinking of the single most influential person in modern history.

If it helps us detect future Hitlers, (before they gain any power), it's worth its weight in gold.

No, its gives us the ravings of someone with dodo type ideology. There are lot of books out there like this, just luckily most of them are written by dodo`s who can not speak.

I suppose you can perceive it in the way you do, but I find the Qu`ran lighter and happier and more informative reading that this... which its not.

[Prometheus]

http://russellsteapot.com/images/rsgallery/original/001100000.jpg
Two problems you have there. God did not sacrifice Himself and Jesus did not make the law.

[bk.ru]

Two problems you have there. God did not sacrifice Himself and Jesus did not make the law.

Of course not ;) So how is the weather in your world? Do you know Gods first commandmant out of the 10?

[JohnDeere]

To quote Dogma:

"It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination's nailed it yet, because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in - just that you have faith. " - Rufus

[Shake&Bake]

that dog rufus barked quite right! Christianity is forum, churches, it's threads... woof woof

[Prometheus]

Well actually, it does matter what you have faith in which is why idolatry is an abomination.

[Mr TB]

Well actually, it does matter what you have faith in which is why idolatry is an abomination.

Which if my understanding is correct, means you are an idolator if your faith is not in christ...

[bk.ru]

So according to prom, Jesus and God are not the same person. Which brings me to something very distressing, do the 10 commandmants no longer apply in this new form of "Christianity"? Because I am pretty sure the FIRST commandmant is:

1) Though shalt worship no others but me.

Now that was God`s law to Moses, so here comes the sticker folks. If as according to Prom, Jesus is not of God, then are these new fangled "Christians" breaking the first commandmant?

[Prometheus]

So according to prom, Jesus and God are not the same person. Which brings me to something very distressing, do the 10 commandmants no longer apply in this new form of "Christianity"? Because I am pretty sure the FIRST commandmant is:

1) Though shalt worship no others but me.

Now that was God`s law to Moses, so here comes the sticker folks. If as according to Prom, Jesus is not of God, then are these new fangled "Christians" breaking the first commandmant?
They are the same God, but not the same person. Jesus is part of God just like you are part of your father yet you are not him.

[Mr TB]

So according to prom, Jesus and God are not the same person. Which brings me to something very distressing, do the 10 commandmants no longer apply in this new form of "Christianity"? Because I am pretty sure the FIRST commandmant is:

1) Though shalt worship no others but me.

Now that was God`s law to Moses, so here comes the sticker folks. If as according to Prom, Jesus is not of God, then are these new fangled "Christians" breaking the first commandmant?

Some very wild irrational assumptions by the origin of species-thumpers,

But let me me thump them with their murerous darwinist ideas:
Read and soak it up...
QUOTE:

"Hamann and Kershaw both argue that Hitler had a consistent--albeit pernicious--world view. At the center of that world view was the notion that history consists of a Darwinian struggle for existence between races, and the Aryan (i.e., Germanic) race has been and still is of supreme importance as the highest race, the only race capable of creating advanced culture. For Hitler human progress depended on two factors: 1) strengthening the Aryan race through eugenics measures; and 2) winning the struggle against the non-Aryan races (necessitating a strong military). Hamann astutely observes that for Hitler, "the individual has no value other than being part of a people and a race and to help secure their survival in the battle against other peoples and races." (p. 235)"

Old Darwin is not having a good time is he?

[bk.ru]

Some very wild irrational assumptions by the origin of species-thumpers,

Um... gosh, try be more original dodo. I know you are an agitator, but at least come up with your own lines.


But let me me thump them with their murerous darwinist ideas:
Read and soak it up...
QUOTE:



Stupid statement, not worth responding to.


"Hamann and Kershaw both argue that Hitler had a consistent--albeit pernicious--world view. At the center of that world view was the notion that history consists of a Darwinian struggle for existence between races, and the Aryan (i.e., Germanic) race has been and still is of supreme importance as the highest race, the only race capable of creating advanced culture. For Hitler human progress depended on two factors: 1) strengthening the Aryan race through eugenics measures; and 2) winning the struggle against the non-Aryan races (necessitating a strong military). Hamann astutely observes that for Hitler, "the individual has no value other than being part of a people and a race and to help secure their survival in the battle against other peoples and races." (p. 235)"


Dodo, was the Hitler card not described to you in detail? VW and IBM did lots of work for the Nazi regime, does that make driving a car and using a computer evil? I would discuss the differences between natural selection and human selection but from the looks of things, you dont even know your alphabet.


Old Darwin is not having a good time is he?

I think you need to get that pig pea brain of yours, and understand Evolution is MUCH MUCH more than Darwins theory of Nautral Selection. Your statement shows complete stupidity in the subject of Evolution. The concept of Evolution was around from way before Darwin and way after him, but I dont expect you to be able to grasp that point either.

[Prometheus]

I think you need to get that pig pea brain of yours, and understand Evolution is MUCH MUCH more than Darwins theory of Nautral Selection. Your statement shows complete stupidity in the subject of Evolution. The concept of Evolution was around from way before Darwin and way after him, but I dont expect you to be able to grasp that point either.
Yeah it was. Darwin was the first one to describe it in detail and Hitler was the first to put it to practice.

[noxibox]

just like you are part of your father yet you are not him.
Other way round.

But just genetic material. Still in no way the same person. We are not one.

[bk.ru]

Yeah it was. Darwin was the first one to describe it in detail and Hitler was the first to put it to practice.

Hello, um Darwin descriped Natural Selection as a PART of Evolution. It is not even a big part of evolution. The idea had been around for a long time because people with minds saw that things evolved. What does Hitler's Human selection have to do with Natural selection? Show me what your dirty little mind can come up with to associate it with :)

[ghoti]

For prom... again, as it appears it has trouble reading:


The Hitler Card
Alias: Argumentum ad Nazium

Type: Guilt by Association

Example:

[T]he ideas of ecologists about invasive species—alien species as they are often called—sound…similar to anti-immigration rhetoric. Green themes like scarcity and purity and invasion and protection all have right-wing echoes. Hitler's ideas about environmentalism came out of purity, after all.

Source: Interview of Betsy Hartmann by Fred Pearce, "The Greening of Hate", New Scientist, 2/20/2003
Forms
Adolf Hitler accepted idea I.
Therefore, I must be wrong. The Nazis accepted idea I.
Therefore, I must be wrong.
Examples
Hitler was in favor of euthanasia.
Therefore, euthanasia is wrong. The Nazis favored eugenics.
Therefore, eugenics is wrong.
Counter-Examples
Hitler was a vegetarian.
Therefore, vegetarianism is wrong. The Nazis were conservationists.
Therefore, conservationism is wrong.
Exposition:

In almost every heated debate, one side or the other—often both—plays the "Hitler card", that is, criticizes their opponent's position by associating it in some way with Adolf Hitler or the Nazis in general. No one wants to be associated with Nazism because it has been so thoroughly discredited in both theory and practise, and Hitler of course was its most famous exponent. So, linking an idea with Hitler or Nazism has become a common form of argument ascribing guilt by association.

Some instances of the Hitler card are factually incorrect, or even ludicrous, in ascribing ideas to Hitler or other Nazis that they did not hold. However, from a logical point of view, even if Hitler or other Nazis did accept an idea, this historical fact alone is insufficient to discredit it.

The Hitler Card is often combined with other fallacies, for instance, a weak analogy between an opponent and Hitler, or between the opposition political group and the Nazis. A related form of fallacious analogy is that which compares an opposition's actions with the Holocaust. This is a form of the ad Nazium fallacy because it casts the opposition in the role of Nazi. Not only do such arguments assign guilt by association, but the analogy used to link the opposition's actions with the Holocaust may be superficial or question-begging.

Other arguments ad Nazium combine guilt by association with a slippery slope. For instance, it is sometimes argued that the Nazis practised euthanasia, and therefore even voluntary forms of it are a first step onto a slippery slope leading to extermination camps. Like many slippery slope arguments, this is a way of avoiding arguing directly against voluntary euthanasia, instead claiming that it may indirectly lead to something admittedly bad.

Playing the Hitler Card demonizes opponents in debate by associating them with evil, and almost always derails the discussion. People naturally resent being associated with Nazism, and are usually angered. In this way, playing the Hitler Card can be an effective distraction in a debate, causing the opponent to lose track of the argument. However, when people become convinced by guilt by association arguments that their political opponents are not just mistaken, but are as evil as Nazis, reasoned debate can give way to violence. So, playing the Hitler Card is more than just a dirty trick in debate, it is often "fighting words".
Exposure:

Germany today bans capital punishment, but the history of this ban is surprising: The government of the former West Germany adopted the ban in 1949 and it continues in effect today in the reunited Germany. The law which banned the death penalty was proposed by a politician sympathetic to the Nazi war criminals who were being executed after World War 2, and was intended to block such executions. Should the disreputable historical origins of the ban influence those Germans who today oppose capital punishment to reconsider their views? Should the ban be repealed simply because it was the brainchild of a Nazi sympathizer? Capital punishment is either right or wrong. If it is right, then the ban should be repealed, regardless of its origins; if it's wrong, then the ban should be continued, despite its origins. While the history of the origins of Germany's ban on capital punishment is interesting, it is irrelevant to the moral and legal question of whether the ban should continue. Those Germans who support capital punishment should resist the temptation to play the Hitler card.
Source:

Charles Lane, "The Paradoxes of a Death Penalty Stance", Washington Post, 6/4/2005
Resources:

* Josie Appleton, "I'm right because…you're a Nazi", Spiked, 1/24/2002
* Nigel Warburton, Thinking from A to Z (Second Edition) (Routledge, 2001), "Bad Company Fallacy".
* Related Fallacy Files weblog entries:
o Was Hitler an Environmentalist?, 3/9/2003
o Playing the Hitler Card, 3/22/2003
o Springtime for Hitler Analogies, 1/7/2004
o Was Hitler a Vegetarian?, 2/29/2004
o Reader Response, 5/2/2005

Sorry for the long paste again folks.

[Prometheus]

What does Hitler's Human selection have to do with Natural selection?
A lot actually. Hitler believed in survival of the fittest and thought it was his job to help it along. But I don't expect you to grasp that. ;)

For prom... again, as it appears it has trouble reading:



Sorry for the long paste again folks.
And your point is that Christians are not responsible for the crusades, inquisition and everything else you can come up with? :rolleyes:

[ToxicBunny]

Prom : please, get a clue, what Hitler was doing had NOTHING to do with Natural Selection. That was eugenics, and genocide, both of which are Human concepts to describe human acts against another human.

How does "The Hitler Card" negate the crusades, the inquisition, etc?...

[Mr TB]

Prom : please, get a clue, what Hitler was doing had NOTHING to do with Natural Selection. That was eugenics, and genocide, both of which are Human concepts to describe human acts against another human.

How does "The Hitler Card" negate the crusades, the inquisition, etc?...

QUOTE:
"Hamann and Kershaw both argue that Hitler had a consistent--albeit pernicious--world view. At the center of that world view was the notion that history consists of a Darwinian struggle for existence between races,”

The darwinist influence, the influence of natural selection can not be ignored when studying HITLER.
I was not the one playing the Hitler card, it was suggested via two quotes that christianity were responsible for the holocaust.
This card was played by the origin of species-thumpers, and anti-semitism is clearly pointing their way due to natural selection or darwinism.
The truth is out and it hurts, neither am I trying to negate any other horrors, the truth will come out…

[ToxicBunny]

WTH are these two ppl you keep trotting out?

douwdouw : get this into your rather limited world view - Natural selection, and the practices of Hitler are not related at all.

I think you're afraid of the truth to be honest. Hitler was a self-avowed Christian iirc, but that doesn't actually link to the "hitler card". I am thinking you probably need to study philosophy somewhat. The hitler card is used to try and beat an opponent in a argument when YOUR position is not defensible, by aligning their position with a socially unacceptable practice.

[Mr TB]

WTH are these two ppl you keep trotting out?

douwdouw : get this into your rather limited world view - Natural selection, and the practices of Hitler are not related at all.

I think you're afraid of the truth to be honest. Hitler was a self-avowed Christian iirc, but that doesn't actually link to the "hitler card". I am thinking you probably need to study philosophy somewhat. The hitler card is used to try and beat an opponent in a argument when YOUR position is not defensible, by aligning their position with a socially unacceptable practice.

I am not afraid of truth, you can't accept that darwinism were cruelly applied eliminating 6 million jews. Trying to blame it on christianity. All the other things christianity are blamed for was it christians?, or does it suite you as a origin of species-thumper to blame it on christianity?

Maybe you should have a look at the unacceptable practices of atheists in communist countries where christians were murdered like in Russia not long ago... not a good example for the origin if species-thumpers.

[ToxicBunny]

Darwinism was not cruelly applied to eliminate 6 million Jews, that was Nazism, Eugenics and Genocide. That has never been in question. So you're deny that the Crusades and the Inquisition were connected with Christians.

How exactly are you going to link atheism to the practices in Russia? Did the leaders say "I am killing all these people because I am an atheist?"

[Mr TB]

Darwinism was not cruelly applied to eliminate 6 million Jews, that was Nazism, Eugenics and Genocide. That has never been in question. So you're deny that the Crusades and the Inquisition were connected with Christians.

How exactly are you going to link atheism to the practices in Russia? Did the leaders say "I am killing all these people because I am an atheist?"

Atheism do not not promote responsiblity or accountibility, look at this...

How do you feel about a the unborn, a fetus, abortion…see god’s remark…
QUOTE:
God, however, has a different view of the unborn. He told the prophet Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" ( Jer.1:5 )

QUOTE:
“The KZ Camp Dachau was the first concentration camp established in Nazi Germany - the camp was opened on March 22, 1933. In the late 1930's the Nazis killed thousands of handicapped Germans by lethal injection and poisonous gas. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941, mobile killing units following in the wake of the German Army began shooting massive numbers of Jews and Gypsies in open fields and ravines on the outskirts of conquered cities and towns.”

In search for the truth that set you free, it is clear that the darwinists or origin of species-thumpers agenda are not so honourable as pretended to be in the threads…

[ToxicBunny]

Actually atheism does promote responsibility and accountability, as YOU are accountable and responsible for your actions, not some nebulous concept such as God...

I am still trying to figure out HOW you are connecting the Nazi death camps with atheism.... the link is non-existant at best.

I support abortion, as it is set out in the law. For many practical reasons, abortion is a good thing.

[Prometheus]

Prom : please, get a clue, what Hitler was doing had NOTHING to do with Natural Selection. That was eugenics, and genocide, both of which are Human concepts to describe human acts against another human.

How does "The Hitler Card" negate the crusades, the inquisition, etc?...
Hitler in his warped little mind thought what he was doing was natural, he just didn't have the time to wait so he helped it along. Now if you say that Darwinism is not responsible for this then how can you say that Christianity is? :confused:

Actually atheism does promote responsibility and accountability, as YOU are accountable and responsible for your actions, not some nebulous concept such as God...

I am still trying to figure out HOW you are connecting the Nazi death camps with atheism.... the link is non-existant at best.

I support abortion, as it is set out in the law. For many practical reasons, abortion is a good thing.
Accountable to whom? Yourself? You can't blame God for YOUR actions.

Have you ever taken a look at how abortions are carried out? Do you know how many people have abortions simply to avoid the responsibility of having a child and taking care of it? If you support everyones right to have an abortion you are in fact saying people do not have to be responsible.

[Mr TB]

Actually atheism does promote responsibility and accountability, as YOU are accountable and responsible for your actions, not some nebulous concept such as God...

I am still trying to figure out HOW you are connecting the Nazi death camps with atheism.... the link is non-existant at best.

I support abortion, as it is set out in the law. For many practical reasons, abortion is a good thing.

In JER 1:5 god declares that he knew the prophet even before he was formed in the belly of his mother.

I can even use your theory that a fetus is human life...the fetus evolves...

Lastly the origin of species-thumpers throws the crusades etc, in front of christians... but abortion well it is murder of the innocent who can not defend themselves, but acceptable to a society with double standards...

[ToxicBunny]

Prom : I never said Christianity was, but Darwinism at the same time wasn't. What Hitler was doing was not Natural Selection or survival of the fittest in the slightest.

See now how does blaming God for my actions make me accountable or responsible, it seems like blaming God is an easy copout from both of those things. If I screw up, I am to blame.. simple and straight forward.

Yes I do know how abortions are carried out, and that people do them for the wrong reasons, but then think about someone who was raped who is now pregnant, and at the same time cannot afford to even THINK about raising a child, what good is there in bringing that child into the world when it will have no hope of a decent life? There is such a thing as thinking of the future of the child, and the parents...

douwdouw : I am not denying that a feotus is "human" life... but whether it evolves or not does not define its humanity... please, go and learn about evolution etc.

Its not about double standards douwdouw, the Crusades where done to further the aims of a religion, and that was Mass Murder on a grand scale (for its time)... abortion is ever so slightly different, and is done for different reasons. It would be great if you could see the world in shades of grey, rather than the boring black and white you seem to view it in.

[Neo]

The concept of the 'Hitler card' is unfortunately something dodo and prom can't grasp although they love playing it.

Using 'Hitler' and 'Darwin' in the same sentence can easily be countered by using 'Hitler' and 'Christianity' (As in 'Hitler, the self-confessed christian') but just shows the futility of such verbal manipulation.

But when we countered the Hitler card with another to show the stupidity of it, it was promptly lost on dodo and prom.

(BTW, Hitler often referred to himself as a Christian in his speeches. Germany is a Christian country, so be definition, most Nazi's were Christians).

What is sad for me is how this concept got embedded in dodo and prom, to the point where they don't even realise it.

[nthdimension]

Potential human life. Slightly higher potential than the sperm and egg. We just set an arbitrary point where the potential is deemed high enough that we can no longer kill it without a very good reason, like saving the mother's life.

[Neo]

To dodo and prom; I'm typing this slowly so you can keep up. Ready?

Natural Selection is just that, NATURAL, i.e. by Nature. Go read a dictionary if you battle.

No other agent can cause NATURAL selection, especially humans. By definition, that would be unnatural.

Got it?

[Neo]

They are the same God, but not the same person. Jesus is part of God just like you are part of your father yet you are not him.

Here comes the verbal gymnactics.....:rolleyes:

Either they're one or they're not, which is it?

[Mr TB]

Prom :
See now how does blaming God for my actions make me accountable or responsible, it seems like blaming God is an easy copout from both of those things. If I screw up, I am to blame.. simple and straight forward.

It would be great if you could see the world in shades of grey, rather than the boring black and white you seem to view it in.

Tox... I believe you are a great guy after all... If you haven't already noticed you will see Adam indirectly blaming god for sinning .

Yes i view life in shades of gray, I just feel sad as the darker shades of gray become more and more acceptable...
The threads were an eye-opener to me. Realising that there is a big difference between child-like believe and childish believe. I being guilty of the latter.
In that sense my faith grew because the childish side being under scrutiny had to look for an adult's view...

[ToxicBunny]

Me? A great guy?... now that i would question.... but anyway.

I don't care if Adam indirectly blamed God for sinning, what I see nowadays is a bunch of religious people coping out of taking responsibility for anything and praising god or blaming satan.... I will always be the first person to stand up and say "I Fscked up"... and I take responsibility for my actions..

It doesn't seem like you view life in shades of grey, it is either acceptable to religion or not, which is a very black and white attitude, which doesn't really work in todays modern society... There is a huge difference between childish beliefs and childish behaviour, but I wonder what you would classify as a childish belief?

[ghoti]

Tox... I believe you are a great guy after all... If you haven't already noticed you will see Adam indirectly blaming god for sinning .

Yes i view life in shades of gray, I just feel sad as the darker shades of gray become more and more acceptable...
The threads were an eye-opener to me. Realising that there is a big difference between child-like believe and childish believe. I being guilty of the latter.
In that sense my faith grew because the childish side being under scrutiny had to look for an adult's view...

..and you made me realize how far evolution still has to go :( Do you know what type of life evolution favours the most? Those that change and adapt to their environment the quickest. Your complete and utter lack of ability to accept change will be your own downfall dodo... just like the real dodo.

[Mr TB]

..and you made me realize how far evolution still has to go :( Do you know what type of life evolution favours the most? just like the real dodo.

Scientists/Biologists, like Richard Dawkins should have a view at this theory:

QUOTE:

“Dr. Charles Thaxton, Charles University, Prague, The Czech Republic
Summarized by Dr. Ray Bohlin

“The Swiss cheese theory of knowledge goes something like this. Most scientists today have a very good knowledge base of their own specific area. This includes being very aware of its particular weaknesses. But most only have a rather popular understanding of other fields and actually believe that everything there is pretty solid. So as the scientist pokes his head out of the hole in the Swiss cheese and scans the horizon, he sees some pretty big holes in the immediate area, but as he looks beyond his own field, the holes seem to disappear. Now if he were able to step back from his private hole in the cheese and actually look at the whole thing, he would quickly see that the entire block of cheese is riddled with holes.””

[Neo]

Mr. TB; Are you dodo-1 (the one who can't write) or dodo-2 (the one who sometimes make arguable, instead of just stupid, points)?

Or are you all part of the holy dodo trinity?

Dodo, the first, dodo the second and Mr. TB. Three, yet one. One yet three.....

You all obviously went to the same grammar school.....:rolleyes:

[The_Librarian]

Many Germans was brainwashed into believing that they was set apart from the Jews.

It just goes to show what hatred can do - it kills off people in different ways.

Religion was not the cause, it was their mind set.


Because every person tend to think of him/herself as better and that their neighbour are not good enough.

[Prometheus]

Prom : I never said Christianity was, but Darwinism at the same time wasn't. What Hitler was doing was not Natural Selection or survival of the fittest in the slightest.
It doesn't matter now does it as in his mind it was. If you can say that it was not survival of the fittest or natural selection simply because he believed or said it was then neither can you say that everything that is done in the name of Christianity is christian. So the crusades were to further the aims of religion? No, they were done to further the aims of select people.

Yes I do know how abortions are carried out, and that people do them for the wrong reasons, but then think about someone who was raped who is now pregnant, and at the same time cannot afford to even THINK about raising a child, what good is there in bringing that child into the world when it will have no hope of a decent life? There is such a thing as thinking of the future of the child, and the parents.
So you still agree that even though it is mostly done for the wrong reasons and simply to duck responsibility they should still have the right to do it. There is such a thing known as a "pill" that can prevent conception after rape, that is if the responsible thing is done in immediately going to a clinic. Also if people did not have sex outside of marriage they would not "have to" think about the future of the child. Very few abortions are necessary. Remove the Bible and God from society and you end up with one that needs to resort to abortion as a solution to its problems and that is after giving condoms out for free! Where are these good morals of the nonreligious again? Sorry but I just don't see them.

Using 'Hitler' and 'Darwin' in the same sentence can easily be countered by using 'Hitler' and 'Christianity' (As in 'Hitler, the self-confessed christian') but just shows the futility of such verbal manipulation.
Exactly. :rolleyes:

Potential human life. Slightly higher potential than the sperm and egg. We just set an arbitrary point where the potential is deemed high enough that we can no longer kill it without a very good reason, like saving the mother's life.
At which point does the potential suddenly become high enough for you? From the first point of conception where the sperm and egg are fused together it will start to divide and grow into a full human being. At no point are the chances higher or lower and there's just as much chance that something can go wrong at 1 day than at 9 months. The line is not set at potential but at what is deemed to be a developed human being.

Here comes the verbal gymnactics.....:rolleyes:

Either they're one or they're not, which is it?
They're one God, two persons.

[Neo]

They're one God, two persons.

So the one is not responsible fot the actions of the other?

[ghoti]

Scientists/Biologists, like Richard Dawkins should have a view at this theory:

QUOTE:

“Dr. Charles Thaxton, Charles University, Prague, The Czech Republic
Summarized by Dr. Ray Bohlin

“The Swiss cheese theory of knowledge goes something like this. Most scientists today have a very good knowledge base of their own specific area. This includes being very aware of its particular weaknesses. But most only have a rather popular understanding of other fields and actually believe that everything there is pretty solid. So as the scientist pokes his head out of the hole in the Swiss cheese and scans the horizon, he sees some pretty big holes in the immediate area, but as he looks beyond his own field, the holes seem to disappear. Now if he were able to step back from his private hole in the cheese and actually look at the whole thing, he would quickly see that the entire block of cheese is riddled with holes.””

Dodo, I know you are deceptive, but bugger off with your sock puppets.

[ghoti]

Many Germans was brainwashed into believing that they was set apart from the Jews.

It just goes to show what hatred can do - it kills off people in different ways.

Religion was not the cause, it was their mind set.


Because every person tend to think of him/herself as better and that their neighbour are not good enough.

I agree with you completely there.

[ToxicBunny]

Prometheus : Does your special pill not count as abortion?... because conception happens pretty much immediately after intercourse.... Where do you draw the line?

Have you ever had to deal with someone who has been raped? The last thing they even THINK about is going off to some clinic to get a pill, they're completely broken and shattered.

Beyond the rape issue, sex is something that happens, and mistakes happen, even in marriage and having a child would irrevocably destroy 3 or more peoples lives. Is that fair and right? Would you want that child to grow up in an environment that can't support him/her, where his/her future is guaranteed to be a complete mess?

[Mr TB]

I agree with you completely there.


QUOTE:
“w1z4rd
Grandmaster

Originally Posted by The_Librarian
Because every person tend to think of him/herself as better and that their neighbour are not good enough.

I agree with you completely there”

You therefore agree with the law as stated in Duet 6v4&5, because following the biblical rule will indeed counter the state of mind…

[Mr TB]

Prometheus : Does your special pill not count as abortion?... because conception happens pretty much immediately after intercourse.... Where do you draw the line?

Have you ever had to deal with someone who has been raped? The last thing they even THINK about is going off to some clinic to get a pill, they're completely broken and shattered.

Beyond the rape issue, sex is something that happens, and mistakes happen, even in marriage and having a child would irrevocably destroy 3 or more peoples lives. Is that fair and right? Would you want that child to grow up in an environment that can't support him/her, where his/her future is guaranteed to be a complete mess?

Yes on the destruction of people's lifes, just as the homosexual destroys his family in many cases, so can you not justify abortion... what about that child right to life...

Strictly speaking it is expected from parents to accept their homosexual children, so should it be expected of them to accept their children in any circumstance...

[ToxicBunny]

How does a homosexual destroy his family?
What about the parents right to a life (if having that child will mean the ruin of 3 lives)

and you say you see the world in shades of grey, all I'm seeing from you is understanding in a very black and white sense.

[noxibox]

Also if people did not have sex outside of marriage they would not "have to" think about the future of the child.
Right, because being married suddenly makes you capable of raising a child physically, emotionally and financially. All that child abuse and neglect must be a fairy tale.

Give me a responsible person who discovers their contraception didn't work and deals with the problem over someone who is too lazy, stupid or so-called moral to do so, but will have no problem physically abusing and/or neglecting their child after it is born.


At no point are the chances higher or lower and there's just as much chance that something can go wrong at 1 day than at 9 months.
Then I'm sure the foetus will have no problem doing its growing elsewhere. If 9 month old baby can do it, then so can a 1 day old foetus.

[Mr TB]

Right, because being married suddenly makes you capable of raising a child physically, emotionally and financially. All that child abuse and neglect must be a fairy tale.

Then I'm sure the foetus will have no problem doing its growing elsewhere. If 9 month old baby can do it, then so can a 1 day old foetus.

No need to try and justify fornication and on top of that illnessess such as aids...

The rate of abortion will drop if fornication drop, the other way round, the rate of murdering innocent children drops if fornication drop. Good reason to abstain if you are not married. The respect for life increase in adrop of abortion which surely will lead to a drop in child abuse...

Your selfish argument lead to the destruction of children's childhood...

[Mr TB]

How does a homosexual destroy his family?
What about the parents right to a life (if having that child will mean the ruin of 3 lives)

and you say you see the world in shades of grey, all I'm seeing from you is understanding in a very black and white sense.

In the same way Christoff Bekker ruined his father's life, although plenty of the blame in my opinion rest on his dad's shoulders...

Did his father give him the car?... he should go to jail too...participation in the murder because of negligence...

If not... Christoff s/b charged with theft also...

shade 1-pornography is freely available via law...
shade 2-masturbation stimulated by pornography...
shade 3-fornication based on the freedom of sex...
shade 4-rape due to laws that lowered the standard of morality...
shade 5-abortion-yes murder of the innocent because it is my right under the constitution...
No sir my life is not black or white, i can show you the different shades of grey...

[ToxicBunny]

Who is Chrisoff Bekker?.. and wtf did he do? and what does it have to do with homosexuality destroying a family?

What is wrong with pornography or masturbation or fornication?

Rape is wrong yes.... but abortion is not wrong, there are laws governing its use, and it does have practical and ethical reasons for being right.

[Mr TB]

Who is Chrisoff Bekker?.. and wtf did he do? and what does it have to do with homosexuality destroying a family?

What is wrong with pornography or masturbation or fornication?

Rape is wrong yes.... but abortion is not wrong, there are laws governing its use, and it does have practical and ethical reasons for being right.

Bekker? ... yeah ... he and 3 pals murdered an innocent black guy one night in 2001, but like you say he bring shame only on himself... true?

If you of course believe that , you will also believe that with the extinction of one animal in a food chain none of the others in such food chain are influenced...

What is wrong with the first 3 grey areas mentioned? can't you see the selfishness, the seed is lust growing into masturbation/fornitcation and if not satisfied rape and at the highest level of murder/abortion and approved by society?!

[ghoti]

Bekker? ... yeah ... he and 3 pals murdered an innocent black guy one night in 2001, but like you say he bring shame only on himself... true?

If you of course believe that , you will also believe that with the extinction of one animal in a food chain none of the others in such food chain are influenced...

What is wrong with the first 3 grey areas mentioned? can't you see the selfishness, the seed is lust growing into masturbation/fornitcation and if not satisfied rape and at the highest level of murder/abortion and approved by society?!

:D lol . You have a dirty mind:P Pity your God advocates rape in the OT.

[ToxicBunny]

Bekker would be a part of the Waterkloof 4? He is going be punished for his crimes. Still don't see how that ties into homosexuality destroying a family.

How do you make the the jump from wherever to me believing that the extinction of one animal in the food chain not being a problem for the others? (The food-chain concept is part of "evolution and biology" the realm of NEBO btw.)

Oh so now the people that look at porn, and masturbate and engage in fornication are going to rape and then murder people and be involved in abortion????? Thats more than just a rather giant leap, its a jump into the completely absurb. Please come back down to reality... it will aid this debate immensely.

[Neo]

Bekker would be a part of the Waterkloof 4? He is going be punished for his crimes. Still don't see how that ties into homosexuality destroying a family.

How do you make the the jump from wherever to me believing that the extinction of one animal in the food chain not being a problem for the others? (The food-chain concept is part of "evolution and biology" the realm of NEBO btw.)

Oh so now the people that look at porn, and masturbate and engage in fornication are going to rape and then murder people and be involved in abortion????? Thats more than just a rather giant leap, its a jump into the completely absurb. Please come back down to reality... it will aid this debate immensely.

No it's true! Every time I look at porn I jack off like a crazy monkey till I can't lift either arm and then I go out and rape left, right and center. It's terrible, can't help myself.

And don't forget the bestiality that follows as well. The other day I accidentally saw a bare female leg in the Huisgenoot and the poor dog took the brunt of it....


(Actually dodo is beginning to remind me of Haggart...the more you preach against something, the more you're probably indulging.....)

[Mr TB]

No it's true! Every time I look at porn I jack off like a crazy monkey...

... And don't forget the bestiality that follows as well.

Good to see NEO making a comment , he boasted about the non-christian's knowledge concerning the bible, you need to study a bit more...

Read Colossians 2v8

and also somewhere in the bible it states knowledge without the living god kills... "die letter maak dood..."

[ToxicBunny]

douwdouw : so the bible states that by studying the bible without believing, you will die?... interesting, well I spose it is vaguely true in that I will die, one day.

Also, Most "heathens" do know more about the bible than the majority of christians, as they have studied it, and then decided its not for them.

[Mr TB]

douwdouw : so the bible states that by studying the bible without believing, you will die?... interesting, well I spose it is vaguely true in that I will die, one day.

Also, Most "heathens" do know more about the bible than the majority of christians, as they have studied it, and then decided its not for them.

RELAVITISMS?...,why do you say vaguely? It is one of life's abslolutes...

The TRUTH is an absolute not a RELATIVE as you are trying to indicate...

[Neo]

The TRUTH is an absolute not a RELATIVE as you are trying to indicate...

Glad you agree, that's why the Bible cannot be true, because we can absolutely find so many holes in it.

Now as you just denounced the concept of levels of 'trueness', you'll agree that we can write the bible off as false, i.e. not an absolute truth.

That's why I prefer to talk about the 'Theory of God'.

Glad you eventually saw the light.

[ToxicBunny]

Ah, douwdouw, if you want to believe in truth as an absolute then you cannot believe in the bible or god... its just not possible.

Thank you for eventually seeing the light and admitting it. We welcome you into the circle of heathens.

[geekchick]

Yes on the destruction of people's lifes, just as the homosexual destroys his family in many cases, so can you not justify abortion... what about that child right to life...

Strictly speaking it is expected from parents to accept their homosexual children, so should it be expected of them to accept their children in any circumstance...

Speak of things you know -

I am gay- proudly so - and have not destroyed any family, and none of my friends did either- and I sure as hell do not expect my parents to accept it regardless- Every relationship I have with any one is and will be rooted in mutual respect- Unlike you I do not presume that I am somehow better or more righteous than any one else-

I just find that it is so easy to for the uniformed to have a go at things they have no first hand knowledge of.

The old homo thing has been beaten to death now- get a new one- how about single parents, or interacial couples , or people with aids,
oh oh oh .........
I know , women in the workplace- that is always a favourite of the uninformed:mad: :mad: :mad:

[ToxicBunny]

geekchick : its almost pointless trying to get douwdouw to see reality for what it is....It believes what it wants and then expects the rest of the world to follow its beliefs...

[geekchick]

Guess ur right- sometimes it get just too much ,reading this drivel

[ghoti]

Guess ur right- sometimes it get just too much ,reading this drivel

I know how you feel :( You are up against an extremely bad level of bigotry and ignorance :(

[Pr⊕phet]

douwdouw

The TRUTH is an absolute


only the sith deals in absolutes....

[Pr⊕phet]

I know how you feel :( You are up against an extremely bad level of bigotry and ignorance :(

funny thing is if you youself where like that while being a xtian and now hehe you are on the 'other' side getting the same flack

[The_Librarian]

As 7th Day Adventist I just cannot continue here.

Every person have the right to make his/her own decision regarding his/her life, and cannot be forced to accept the Lord or the teachings of the Bible.

"Let those of you who are without sin, be the first to cast the stone" and "Remove the beam from thine own eye before attempting to remove the splinter from your brothers' eye" speaks volumes in this regard.

I am not without sin, so I won't cast the stone. I will, however, let people know that I rejoice and love the Lord, for that is my choice.

But I will never, ever judge or condemn somebody just because they're gay, or follow different beliefs.

That is all I will say for now.

Happy Sabbath tomorrow everybody.

[geekchick]

thanks T L

Blessed day for you and yours tomorrow!

[ToxicBunny]

/me applauds T_L....

Its attitudes like that, that will make this world work...

[Natas]

As 7th Day Adventist I just cannot continue here.

Every person have the right to make his/her own decision regarding his/her life, and cannot be forced to accept the Lord or the teachings of the Bible.

"Let those of you who are without sin, be the first to cast the stone" and "Remove the beam from thine own eye before attempting to remove the splinter from your brothers' eye" speaks volumes in this regard.

I am not without sin, so I won't cast the stone. I will, however, let people know that I rejoice and love the Lord, for that is my choice.

But I will never, ever judge or condemn somebody just because they're gay, or follow different beliefs.

That is all I will say for now.

Happy Sabbath tomorrow everybody.

I dislike Seventh Day Adventurers!! or at least the religion!! Quite an irritating religion...do you eat meat is my first question!?!?!?

My secodn is do you keep the sabbath and if you do..do you watch TV, etc, etc ,etc?!?! My grandpaernts tried to raise me as a Seventh Day Adventurer but thank Shleebus my parents were all like HELL NO!!!

For one I hate the religion becuase the way people have interpreted it, it means you Friday evening and Satur Day is ****ed!! cant do a thing...Religions where you have to forfeit a whole chunk of your life are a waste of time...effectively, one day out of seven..a seventh of your life is spent not being able to do what you might otherwise feel like doing!?!!?

[Mr TB]

...Religions where you have to forfeit a whole chunk of your life are a waste of time...effectively, one day out of seven..a seventh of your life is spent not being able to do what you might otherwise feel like doing!?!!?

...mmm... rather forfeit one seventh of a temperory life(+-11 years) than forfeit eternity... Sounds like a reasonable rational deal to me...

[The_Librarian]

@ Natas - that was uncalled for. Don't try to blame me for what your grandparents did.

Every person interprets the commandments differently.

Yes, I do eat meat.

[Natas]

...mmm... rather forfeit one seventh of a temperory life(+-11 years) than forfeit eternity... Sounds like a reasonable rational deal to me...

Thats based on an assuption that there is an afterlife

[Mr TB]

/me applauds T_L....

Its attitudes like that, that will make this world work...

...mmm... T_L's approach towards Haggard and the way he was approached by some of the self rightious non-christians differ quite a bit... Seems like the humble approaches of christians make this world go round...

[Mr TB]

Thats based on an assuption that there is an afterlife

You made an assumption that there is no afterlife...

[geekchick]

Natas

We take umbrage at high handed , narrow minded attitudes of some of the comments from xtians , and u launch a attack on one of the guys who is trying to get along with everyone here - not very nice.

[Natas]

Natas

We take umbrage at high handed , narrow minded attitudes of some of the comments from xtians , and u launch a attack on one of the guys who is trying to get along with everyone here - not very nice.

My bad!! didnt know we were all just trying to get along......Just a kneejerk reaction to things from my past!!! My brother and I were young and my grandparents used to FORCE us to go with to church...I HATED it....would despite being threatened refuse to sit still and used to moan LOUDLY about how boring church was....then we would run around the church like the children of the corn....an act which we would save for when my grandfather was busy with his Sermony thingamajig or whatever...

I wasnt blaming Librarian for anything I was simlpy expressing my opinion on the religion he has chosen to follow. Arent you not supposed to eat things that arent not made of meat if you are a Seventh Day Adventurer?!!?!? What "works" for you about being a Seventh Day Adventurer..that and being a Jehova's Witness just never made sense to me....my cousin was one for a while...his mom forced him to be one...he wasnt allowed to play with guns while he was growing up....poor bastard..he also wasnt ever allowed to get birfday prezzies..what kind of religion would deny a kid presents....?!?!!?

[The_Librarian]

@ Natas - thanks for setting things straight.

Like I said before, it is the way people tend to interpret the Scriptures and Commandments.

I do eat meat, sure, nothing wrong with that. Only thing I don't eat is pork. Basically our belief is to base our diet on what is prescribed in the Bible - but I do love my piece of meat (or biltong) too much just to stop it.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a loophole round that - they can accept gifts any time of the year, so some would still receive their prezzies and stuff. :D

As for the Sabbath - my belief is that you have to enjoy the Sabbath - go swimming, walking, visiting ill people in hospital or something which you will enjoy and be closer to the Lord. The stuffy, outdated belief that you have to stay at home, not watch telly, read the Bible/Scriptures the whole day long is not the way to do it. The Sabbath was created for Man to rest on, not the other way round.

[Natas]

[QUOTE=The_Librarian;862987As for the Sabbath - my belief is that you have to enjoy the Sabbath - go swimming, walking, visiting ill people in hospital or something which you will enjoy and be closer to the Lord. The stuffy, outdated belief that you have to stay at home, not watch telly, read the Bible/Scriptures the whole day long is not the way to do it. The Sabbath was created for Man to rest on, not the other way round.[/QUOTE]

I think my grandfolks still follow the old outdated mode of follwoing the Sabbath suing the principle that the more you deprive yourself of worldly things, the more holy you are.....

[Aqua_lung]

As 7th Day Adventist I just cannot continue here.

Every person have the right to make his/her own decision regarding his/her life, and cannot be forced to accept the Lord or the teachings of the Bible.

"Let those of you who are without sin, be the first to cast the stone" and "Remove the beam from thine own eye before attempting to remove the splinter from your brothers' eye" speaks volumes in this regard.

I am not without sin, so I won't cast the stone. I will, however, let people know that I rejoice and love the Lord, for that is my choice.

But I will never, ever judge or condemn somebody just because they're gay, or follow different beliefs.

That is all I will say for now.

Happy Sabbath tomorrow everybody.

The Sabbath is on a Saturday (Friday sunset-Saturday nightfall to be exact), Jews have always practised this therefore I'm sure Jesus did as well.

But I find the origins of 7th day Adventist church amusing :D


The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the largest of several Adventist groups which arose from the Millerite movement of the 1840s. The Millerite movement was part of the wave of revivalism in the United States known as the Second Great Awakening, and originated with William Miller, a Baptist preacher from Low Hampton, New York. Miller predicted on the basis of Daniel 8:14 and the "day-year principle" that Jesus Christ would return to earth on October 22, 1844. When this failed to occur, most his followers disbanded and returned to their original churches.

Following this "Great Disappointment" (as it came to be known) a small number of Millerites came to believe that Miller's calculations were correct, but that his interpretation of Daniel 8:14 was flawed. Beginning with a vision experienced by Hiram Edson on October 23, these Adventists arrived at the conviction that Daniel 8:14 foretold Christ's entrance into the "Most Holy Place" of the heavenly sanctuary rather than his second coming. Over the next decade this understanding developed into the doctrine of the investigative judgment: an eschatological process commencing in 1844 in which Christians will be judged to verify their eligibility for salvation. The Adventists continued to believe that Christ's second coming would be imminent, although they refrained from setting further dates for the event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church

Millerite followers sold all there possessions before October 22, 1844 :D

I saw a snippet of this on history channel yesterday evening btw

[The_Librarian]

I think my grandfolks still follow the old outdated mode of follwoing the Sabbath suing the principle that the more you deprive yourself of worldly things, the more holy you are.....

:rolleyes: Yeah, right...

Glad I don't live in those stuffy times... The Lord created the Sabbath for us to enjoy and not for us to suffer...

Anyways, on this note I'll bid all of you a good weekend, happy Sabbath and will continue on Monday.

[ghoti]

:rolleyes: Yeah, right...

Glad I don't live in those stuffy times... The Lord created the Sabbath for us to enjoy and not for us to suffer...

Anyways, on this note I'll bid all of you a good weekend, happy Sabbath and will continue on Monday.

What day is the Sabbath?

[Prometheus]

Prometheus : Does your special pill not count as abortion?... because conception happens pretty much immediately after intercourse.... Where do you draw the line?

Have you ever had to deal with someone who has been raped? The last thing they even THINK about is going off to some clinic to get a pill, they're completely broken and shattered.

Beyond the rape issue, sex is something that happens, and mistakes happen, even in marriage and having a child would irrevocably destroy 3 or more peoples lives. Is that fair and right? Would you want that child to grow up in an environment that can't support him/her, where his/her future is guaranteed to be a complete mess?
I don't know. Does an egg being fertilized on its way out count as abortion? Or what about in vitro where fertilized eggs get thrown away? I guess its a matter of each person's own conscience. I know its much more unfair to simply end a life because it is unwanted. And yes sex happens which is why there's such a thing as a condom. Can you really say it is fair to decide to end a life because it might not have a good future when many children have found a loving home with people that want them. I suppose you can easily answer that question if you believe that this life is all there is. I mean why should murder be against the law when you don't even know that you existed once you die.

Right, because being married suddenly makes you capable of raising a child physically, emotionally and financially. All that child abuse and neglect must be a fairy tale.

Give me a responsible person who discovers their contraception didn't work and deals with the problem over someone who is too lazy, stupid or so-called moral to do so, but will have no problem physically abusing and/or neglecting their child after it is born.
LOL. I guess we should abolish all the child abuse laws since in your mind it is all about being unable to raise a child. Most abuse and neglect cases are actually with parents who are physically and financially able to care for that children. Now you suddenly equate unwanted pregnancy with a problem. Nice set of "morals" you have there. If you are old enough to do the deed then you are old enough to deal with the consequences. I have a wonderful 14 year old niece today for which I thank God for who has a loving home with a mother and stepfather because a "problem" as you call it was dealt with instead of simply brushing it off and not accepting responsibility.

Then I'm sure the foetus will have no problem doing its growing elsewhere. If 9 month old baby can do it, then so can a 1 day old foetus.
Is that the biggest load of bull**** you can come up with? It's not even worth a response.

Pity your God advocates rape in the OT.
I haven't read that in my Bible yet. :confused:

Bekker would be a part of the Waterkloof 4? He is going be punished for his crimes. Still don't see how that ties into homosexuality destroying a family.
For how long? 15 years because he was a minor at the time? That's a hell of a discount for a brutal murder.

Glad you agree, that's why the Bible cannot be true, because we can absolutely find so many holes in it.
So we are in agreement that evolution can not be true because we can absolutely find so many holes in it. :p

[Prometheus]

I think my grandfolks still follow the old outdated mode of follwoing the Sabbath suing the principle that the more you deprive yourself of worldly things, the more holy you are.....
And in doing this they deprive themselves of exactly that which the Lord made for us to enjoy. This generally leads people away from God and only closer to a boring wasted life. Then one day God asks the question what did you do with your life. Jesus showed us how to do it and they all saw it as sin.

[noxibox]

Is that the biggest load of bull**** you can come up with? It's not even worth a response.
So a 1 day old fertilised egg doesn't have the same potential as a 9 month old foetus? Your silly line is as arbitrary as anybody's.

[Pr⊕phet]

@ Natas - thanks for setting things straight.
As for the Sabbath - my belief is that you have to enjoy the Sabbath - go swimming, walking, visiting ill people in hospital or something which you will enjoy and be closer to the Lord. The stuffy, outdated belief that you have to stay at home, not watch telly, read the Bible/Scriptures the whole day long is not the way to do it. The Sabbath was created for Man to rest on, not the other way round.

couldn't have said it better myself. even if you don't be leave in sabbath day at all - it is a healthy and recommended thing to take one day off in the week and do something that you enjoy apart from you normal day to day activities and responsibilities.

:)

[Prometheus]

So a 1 day old fertilised egg doesn't have the same potential as a 9 month old foetus? Your silly line is as arbitrary as anybody's.
I don't know where you scratched out that load of drivel. Of course it has the same potential. Remove it and YOU decide to go against nature and kill it. Leave it alone and it has as much chance of making it into this world as a fully developed human being at any stage. You decide it's ok to interfere and then try to justify that by saying there's not much potential for human life? That's the most absurd and screwed up line of thought I have ever come across but it's expected. :sick:

[ghoti]

I haven't read that in my Bible yet. :confused:


Twist this:


Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

[Mr TB]

Twist this:

I read this a few times... can not find the word rape in it... maybe i should turn to a pornograhic, masturbation-like thought pattern, then i will find rape in the passage...

[Prometheus]

Hmm, I also remember reading somewhere that sex outside of marriage is prohibited and so also marriage outside of the tribe of Israel. If I have it right both these acts was punishable by death. Is it just me or does everybody else also reason that they were given this plunder as slaves? I guess that's leaving it to the atheists to twist parts of the Bible to their misguided notions. :rolleyes: I'm still waiting for rape instructions...

[ghoti]

Hmm, I also remember reading somewhere that sex outside of marriage is prohibited and so also marriage outside of the tribe of Israel. If I have it right both these acts was punishable by death. Is it just me or does everybody else also reason that they were given this plunder as slaves? I guess that's leaving it to the atheists to twist parts of the Bible to their misguided notions. :rolleyes: I'm still waiting for rape instructions...

Twisted :D Thanks, you helped me prove a point in a private bet :D

[Mr TB]

Twisted :D Thanks, you helped me prove a point in a private bet :D
Twisted?? like you are showing your lack of knowledge of the "Ancient of Days" and the gods of ancient times when discussing the ten plagues?

Twisted?? like showing your lack of uderstanding that the homsexual sodomites will find no joy in raping Lot's virgin daughters? His proposal to buy time a valid one...

Twisted??...Yeah...

[Prometheus]

Deuteronomy 4: 1 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

Deuteronomy 7: 1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

Deuteronomy 21: 10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

An atheist has NO authority to quote from the Bible. THEY are the ones twisting it. :D

[The_Librarian]

What day is the Sabbath?

The Sabbath falls on a Saturday, between sunset on Friday night and sunset on Saturday night.

Do you want to know more, and discuss it?

[ghoti]

The Sabbath falls on a Saturday, between sunset on Friday night and sunset on Saturday night.

Do you want to know more, and discuss it?

Yes please. Why was it moved to the Sunday?

Prom: Luckily for your world, I am not an atheist :)

[Prometheus]

Prom: Luckily for your world, I am not an atheist :)
Well, whatever you are you clearly can not interpret the Bible. :)

[Captain Beer]

The Sabbath falls on a Saturday, between sunset on Friday night and sunset on Saturday night.

Do you want to know more, and discuss it?

Are you only allowed to watch Hope Channel and 3ABN on a Saturday? :p

JK :D

[phenom]

My vote goes to Christian who believes the bible is complex and needs interpretation; Christ is the word of God(if he exists) and the other words of the bible should be interpreted around Christ, otherwise it would not be CHRISTianity; If the Bible is read straight up like from the OT it could be dangerous IMO; I believe Christianity is compatible to Skepticism and Humanism; I don't support teaching faith! I do support teaching logic. I rely on Skepticism and Humanism and thus I consider Christianity to be most likely true. note I am a Anglican

[Mr TB]

My vote goes to Christian who believes the bible is complex and needs interpretation; Christ is the word of God(if he exists) and the other words of the bible should be interpreted around Christ, otherwise it would not be CHRISTianity; If the Bible is read straight up like from the OT it could be dangerous IMO; I believe Christianity is compatible to Skepticism and Humanism; I don't support teaching faith! I do support teaching logic. I rely on Skepticism and Humanism and thus I consider Christianity to be most likely true. note I am a Anglican

There is indeed no logic in rejecting the free gift of eternal life...

[Captain Beer]

There is indeed no logic in rejecting the free gift of eternal life...

I agree with you douwdouw, maybe it is time for you to find Islam :cool:

[Mr TB]

I agree with you douwdouw, maybe it is time for you to find Islam :cool:

I said eternal life is a gift, it is free, not something you must work for :rolleyes:

[Iwojima]

I said eternal life is a gift, it is free, not something you must work for :rolleyes:

A whole harem of virgins waiting on the other side...i'm in.

[Mr TB]

A whole harem of virgins waiting on the other side...i'm in.

You are trapped in the physical pleasures of life are you not...?

[Captain Beer]

You are trapped in the physical pleasures of life are you not...?

Why not?

God gave me weed, he gave us women so lets enjoy ;)

douwdouw you just need to respect other peoples choices mate, you have found what works for you and I have found what works for me, lets live in peace!

[Mr TB]

Why not?

God gave me weed, he gave us women so lets enjoy ;)

douwdouw you just need to respect other peoples choices mate, you have found what works for you and I have found what works for me, lets live in peace!

...mmm... so respect people choosing to murder other people... that is what you are advocating right?

...mmm... why are nobody respecting the one that choose to be a racist?
...why are all kinds of apologies required?... You either use double standards when it comes to choices... or your philosophy is straightforwardly wrong...

[Prometheus]

Why not?

God gave me weed, he gave us women so lets enjoy ;)

douwdouw you just need to respect other peoples choices mate, you have found what works for you and I have found what works for me, lets live in peace!
Indulging without thought of the consequences? That's gluttony. Anyway what happens if your choices start affecting others including me? Remember aids? Abortion? God also gave you a brain not to use the weed but you kill it by using the weed. :rolleyes: If more people stick to no sex outside of marriage there would be a lot less aids cases and we would not have to worry about testing to know if we are marrying someone with aids. Fact is your decisions affect all of us whether you know it or not.

[Captain Beer]

Indulging without thought of the consequences? That's gluttony. Anyway what happens if your choices start affecting others including me? Remember aids? Abortion? God also gave you a brain not to use the weed but you kill it by using the weed. :rolleyes: If more people stick to no sex outside of marriage there would be a lot less aids cases and we would not have to worry about testing to know if we are marrying someone with aids. Fact is your decisions affect all of us whether you know it or not.

Ja me smoking a doob is gonna make me a murderer and looking at a sexy lady will give me a nasty STD. I never said I was gonna sleep with the women, you guys interpreted it the wrong way.

So douwdouw you are saying that not being a christian is the same as being a murderer?

[noxibox]

He's thinking of alcohol, not cannabis. When it comes to murdering defenceless brain cells in their sleep cannabis can't compete with a heavyweight like alcohol.

AIDs shouldn't be a problem with Christians anyway. They obviously all abstain outside marriage so they couldn't catch it from their partners. Anyway it has nothing to do with not having sex outside marriage, only not being promiscuous and indiscriminate.

[Prometheus]

Ja me smoking a doob is gonna make me a murderer and looking at a sexy lady will give me a nasty STD. I never said I was gonna sleep with the women, you guys interpreted it the wrong way.
whatever dude

AIDs shouldn't be a problem with Christians anyway. They obviously all abstain outside marriage so they couldn't catch it from their partners. Anyway it has nothing to do with not having sex outside marriage, only not being promiscuous and indiscriminate.
Like there aren't babies born with it, who has to take care of them? And what about blood transfusions and accidents involving blood? It's everyone's mess created by only some people.

[Safferbeauty]

...mmm... so respect people choosing to murder other people... that is what you are advocating right?

...mmm... why are nobody respecting the one that choose to be a racist?
...why are all kinds of apologies required?... You either use double standards when it comes to choices... or your philosophy is straightforwardly wrong...

U cant tell someone that their philosophy is wrong because that means u r judging them and if u judge them, expect to be judged by God and other people

[Prometheus]

Hmm... there is a difference between judging someone and telling them the difference between right and wrong. All that is needed for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing. The people sitting on their faith because they are afraid of being judged will not know Jesus one day.

[Iwojima]

The people sitting on their faith because they are afraid of being judged will not know Jesus one day.

The same people who are scared into believing something because of the consequences of not doing so?

[Prometheus]

The same people who are scared in believing something because of the consequences of not doing so?
Huh? :confused:

[Iwojima]

I take it you're talking about people being scared of believing in something because of the fact that other will judge them?

[Captain Beer]

whatever dude

What's wrong? Don't have an answer?

Your type of arrogance (like douwdouw) pushes people further away from christianity.

Edwe and T_L have the right attitude!

[Prometheus]

I take it you're talking about people being scared of believing in something because of the fact that other will judge them?
Yes, and also those who are afraid to state their beliefs. The last part of your sentence just sounded a bit confusing to me. :)

What's wrong? Don't have an answer?

Your type of arrogance (like douwdouw) pushes people further away from christianity.

Edwe and T_L have the right attitude!
What? I didn't say that smoking weed will drive you to kill when it is the exact opposite. I was talking about your health and sigarettes are even worse there and someday the taxpayers might have to "cough up" for it. And to think someone here asked why churches should get a tax rebate. Everything you do will affect you later in life and will have an effect on everyone else. Somthing to think about before plucking the weed. ;)

[Captain Beer]

Don't worry about me Prometheus, I have medical aid :D

[Mr TB]

Don't worry about me Prometheus, I have medical aid :D

Poor guy , Prom thinks because he is on a med aid what he does has no influence on remainder of society, maybe he need some classes in economics and in social economics.

No sir every person who get sick and especially via negligence influence society... you should know that...

[Captain Beer]

Poor guy , Prom thinks because he is on a med aid what he does has no influence on remainder of society, maybe he need some classes in economics and in social economics.

No sir every person who get sick and especially via negligence influence society... you should know that...

That's touching sir. Ja, that next doob could be the end of me :rolleyes:

Your Bible bashing has an effect on me, you should know that.

[Iwojima]

Poor guy , Prom thinks because he is on a med aid what he does has no influence on remainder of society, maybe he need some classes in economics and in social economics.

No sir every person who get sick and especially via negligence influence society... you should know that...

If smoking a bit of doob is his only vice chances are that his medical aid will make much more from him in premiums than they would use on hospital fees for weed related illnesses. Why? Because there aren't any illnesses serious enough that can be blamed on cannabis use.

[Safferbeauty]

Poor guy , Prom thinks because he is on a med aid what he does has no influence on remainder of society, maybe he need some classes in economics and in social economics.

No sir every person who get sick and especially via negligence influence society... you should know that...

God put us here on earth and he let us rule the earth. he gave us a free choice to do what we like, ok we will have to face the consequences of our choices good or bad but it is up to us to do what we like with our lives. U cant tell a person smoking weed or cigerettes is bad for them because thwey know it already. Let people get on with their own lives and u can get on with yours

[Mr TB]

God put us here on earth and he let us rule the earth. he gave us a free choice to do what we like, ok we will have to face the consequences of our choices good or bad but it is up to us to do what we like with our lives. U cant tell a person smoking weed or cigerettes is bad for them because thwey know it already. Let people get on with their own lives and u can get on with yours

Citizens do not really understand the consequenses of their wreckless behavior, we start with speeding, drinking, causing unnecessary accidents, then immoral behavior causing abortion, aids etc... for all this society is paying a dear price but those involved don't care... Of the topic? no we are talking religion, time this people give their neighbours respect...

[ghoti]

Citizens do not really understand the consequenses of their wreckless behavior, we start with speeding, drinking, causing unnecessary accidents, then immoral behavior causing abortion, aids etc... for all this society is paying a dear price but those involved don't care... Of the topic? no we are talking religion, time this people give their neighbours respect...

Ted Haggard.

[Mr TB]

Ted Haggard.

The american... but i can't even count the bunch , like the homos in this country now protected by law eating away my tax money...

[Captain Beer]

like the homos in this country now protected by law eating away my tax money...

That's it mate, you are a see you en tee.

time this people give their neighbours respect... sorry what was that?

[Mr TB]

That's it mate, you are a see you en tee.

time this people give their neighbours respect... sorry what was that?

I am not TED HAGGARD'S neighbour am i?

[Captain Beer]

I am not TED HAGGARD'S neighbour am i?

No you probably are Ted Haggard.

[Mr TB]

No you probably are Ted Haggard.

:D

:D

:D

[Safferbeauty]

Citizens do not really understand the consequenses of their wreckless behavior, we start with speeding, drinking, causing unnecessary accidents, then immoral behavior causing abortion, aids etc... for all this society is paying a dear price but those involved don't care... Of the topic? no we are talking religion, time this people give their neighbours respect...

I think u should learn to give other people respect by not bible bashing them all the time

[Mr TB]

I think u should learn to give other people respect by not bible bashing them all the time

Biblebashing...uhhh...:D are you not concerned about the origin of species bashing that going on sistier, we are thumped with it all the time?!...:D

[ToxicBunny]

Ummm douwdouw, us "origin of species thumpers" just inform you of the theory we accept to be real, we don't then say you will burn in hell for all eternally for not accepting our theory.... You may believe in whichever theory you wish, but you have a bad habit of then saying people will burn in hell, or worship some non-existant god (even though your religion doesn't have multiple gods)

[Safferbeauty]

I know but remember what we give is what we get. What we sew is what we reap

[Mr TB]

I know but remember what we give is what we get. What we sew is what we reap

Yes dear sister that is the reason why i sew the Bible even if they want to call it bashing, i wish not to reap the lake of fire...

but note i do not sow out of fear but because of love as described in the bible...(before someone twist my words again...these origin of species thumpers you know...)

[Mr TB]

Ummm douwdouw, us "origin of species thumpers" just inform you of the theory we accept to be real, we don't then say you will burn in hell for all eternally for not accepting our theory.... You may believe in whichever theory you wish, but you have a bad habit of then saying people will burn in hell, or worship some non-existant god (even though your religion doesn't have multiple gods)

Would you prefer if i lie to you?

[Safferbeauty]

But dont bible bash people that is how u chase people away. U chase [people away by telling them they are going to hell.

[Captain Beer]

Would you prefer if i lie to you?

The only person you are lying to is yourself **** face.

[ToxicBunny]

Oh you are WELCOME to lie to me douwdouw.... I am not phased by your version of lies/truth...

If i was to follow your religion, then I'd have booked my place in hell LONG ago. I would be getting a personal welcome visit from Lucifer when i go down.

[dotVIBE]

@dowdow

dude, please change your sig. The spelling mistake really detracts from anything you say, and you can hardly afford any further openings to ridicule.

[dotVIBE]

I think u should learn to give other people respect by not bible bashing them all the time

@ dowdow

note the difference between the responses safferbeauty get and the responses you get.

then note the differences of aproach between the two of you.

so, who do you think is more effective in spreading the christian message?

[Prometheus]

Poor guy , Prom thinks because he is on a med aid what he does has no influence on remainder of society, maybe he need some classes in economics and in social economics.
I just thought I should let it be. Ignorance is bliss they say. :D I wonder why the medical aid fees are so high the rest of us can not afford it...

A few notes. If you don't want to hear from the bible you should not post a religious thread. You can call that Bible bashing if you like but the "bashing" is largely in the other direction. Yes the response to SB has been quite different from the response to douwdouw but so was the response to T_L who got attacked a few pages back for no reason at all. Douwdouw please tone it down a little. ;)

Ok everyone flame me now... :D
* puts on flame retardant suit *

[Iwojima]

I just thought I should let it be. Ignorance is bliss they say. :D I wonder why the medical aid fees are so high the rest of us can not afford it...

A few notes. If you don't want to hear from the bible you should not post a religious thread. You can call that Bible bashing if you like but the "bashing" is largely in the other direction. Yes the response to SB has been quite different from the response to douwdouw but so was the response to T_L who got attacked a few pages back for no reason at all. Douwdouw please tone it down a little. ;)

Ok everyone flame me now... :D
* puts on flame retardant suit *

*Resists urge to flame* No, i'm just playing :)

I think the point we're all getting at is that there is a difference between discussing the bible and preaching....douwdouw is doing the latter.

[Prometheus]

I think the point we're all getting at is that there is a difference between discussing the bible and preaching....douwdouw is doing the latter.
Which is why I included him in my comment as I see this getting out of hand and becoming no fun for anyone here. :)

[mancombseepgood]

No, Protastant is an offbreak of Catholicism. Once upon a time there was a king we didnt like the pope. So he said, instead of the pope being the head of the church. I am! And now we have the C.hurch of England.

If Christianity is the same, then why are the Protestants killing the Catholics? All does not look the same if people are dying for it. For the record, as far as modern day Christianity goes, the Catholics are basically the originals. They evolved from the Christian Orthodox Church, and have been around longer than all the new upstarts.

There are people who will argue that Cathlicism is an offbreak of "the way"... etc. etc.
The essence is really believing in Christ - that's why judgement will ultimately be up to God himself and not us - our ways are not his and his ways are higher than ours. I think there will be alot of surprised people at the end, and to me, the way to deal with it is to spend enough time talking to God and asking him for the answers, then following up with obedience when he shows you the answers... there is no other way but to trust and obey. ;)

Believe me, if God is not trustworthy, then how much less trustworthy are people? `If we know how to give good things to our children, how much more will God not give the Holy Spirit to those who ask?'

[rwenzori]

the way to deal with it is to spend enough time talking to God and asking him for the answers, then following up with obedience when he shows you the answers... there is no other way but to trust and obey.

Behold! TheL0rd came to me in a vision last night, and spake to me thus: "Goeth thou to that forum and tell the sinners there that whomsoever thinketh he is talking to me is self-delusional!"

[mancombseepgood]

Lol - now AFAIK God does not spake in a foreing phorm of olde Englishe. Unless you yourself are a few hundred years old.

I'm not sure if you are saying it is impossible for God to speak to us or you just dont want to hear from him...
AFAIK he's not what you were taught he is.

[rwenzori]

Lol - now AFAIK God does not spake in a foreing phorm of olde Englishe.


Sure he doth. Go read your KJV. Heathen!

[mancombseepgood]

Hmmm... nope, I don't see your point...

[Mr TB]

Behold! TheL0rd came to me in a vision last night, and spake to me thus: "Goeth thou to that forum and tell the sinners there that whomsoever thinketh he is talking to me is self-delusional!"

I surely believe the vision rwenzori had, ensuring he can not cause anyone else's downfall....

[rwenzori]

I surely believe the vision rwenzori had, ensuring he can not cause anyone else's downfall....

Hallelujah and Amen brother!

[The_Librarian]

Yes please. Why was it moved to the Sunday?

Prom: Luckily for your world, I am not an atheist :)

The first "Christian" Sunday Law states "Let all judges and all city people and all tradesmen rest upon the venerable day of the sun. But let those dwelling in the country freely and with full liberty attend to the culture of their fields; since it frequently happens that no other day is so fit for the sowing of grain, or the planting of vines; hence, the favorable time should not be allowed to pass, lest the provisions of heaven be lost." -- Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. Corpus Juris Civilis Cod., lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3. Constantine (and Crispus) being consul (each for the second time). 321 A.D.

"For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work"- Pope John Paul II-DIES DOMINI-Dies Hominis v.64, May 31, 1998

'The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate (change) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. This , my friends, is blasphemy. The pope believes that he can forever change the laws of the very Creator without retribution. Notice this very similar wording in the book of Daniel:

The Holy Bible -KJV, Daniel 7:21 "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;" 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

I will discuss the Books of Daniel and Revelations at a later stage.