"AA here to stay" - Trevor Manuel

[antowan]

Cape Town - Finance Minister Trevor Manuel dismissed calls for an end to affirmative action, but conceded on Thursday the Employment Equity Act was being abused in some instances.

"It's there (the Act). In practice, it frequently is poorly used. It is sadly abused, but it's there and the intent of the Act is abundantly clear," Manuel told MPs in the national assembly.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2077244,00.html

[Syndyre]

The intent being racism.

[Skeptik]

To enrich a select few comrades and give a leg-up to ANC supporters, many of whom would never have thrived in a democracy anyway.

[Abe]

To enrich a select few comrades and give a leg-up to ANC supportersYes, this is how AA is being used.

[DigitalSoldier]

Cape Town - Finance Minister Trevor Manuel dismissed calls for an end to affirmative action, but conceded on Thursday the Employment Equity Act was being abused in some instances.

"It's there (the Act). In practice, it frequently is poorly used. It is sadly abused, but it's there and the intent of the Act is abundantly clear," Manuel told MPs in the national assembly.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2077244,00.html

/sarcasm on

wow is it really being abused :rolleyes:

/sarcasm off

[kilo39]

.and so the excesses of state are offhandedly excused.

Sound familiar?

[reech]

AA stays >> Talented People leave

[marine1]

It takes 6 AA's to do one qualified person's job. This I saw personally yesterday at a certain company.

[kiepie]

To enrich a select few comrades and give a leg-up to ANC supporters, many of whom would never have thrived in a democracy anyway.

Hear hear!

[antowan]

The main thing for me is the fact that AA is impossible to implement fairly by any government. How do they know the exact history of every person that will be either advanced or pushed aside?

There are extremely rich black people in this country, that cannot under any circumstances be considered disadvantaged anymore. Their children cannot be considered disadvantaged anymore! Yet they will be pushed forward at the expense of an equally or more qualified "advantaged" person.

It is insanity!

Simply uplift all poor people in this country with our ever increasingly efficiently raised tax base and let the rest get on with their lives!

When will black people stop being disadvantaged? Government needs to tell us. What does a South African society look like where there aren't any advantaged or disadvantaged anymore?

[Syndyre]

They'll never stop it, its enriching themselves and their cronies too much.

[kaspaas]

Fire Trevor!

[tibby.dude]

Good ... that is what the majority of us wants.

[tibby.dude]

Fire Trevor!

Only at the ballot box ... hysterics on internet forums sadly don't count :D.

[Syndyre]

Good ... that is what the majority of us wants.

Tyranny of the majority?

[marine1]

Tibby how is your shoulder from the chip on it ?

[savage]

Stick to tax Mr Manual...

[marine1]

And Job losses.

[antowan]

Keep it clean folks. Please. Fight the fight with good arguments and not emotive outbursts. Please.

[chiskop]

There are extremely rich black people in this country, that cannot under any circumstances be considered disadvantaged anymore. Their children cannot be considered disadvantaged anymore! Yet they will be pushed forward at the expense of an equally or more qualified "advantaged" person.


Yes, that it true. But what proportion of black job-seekers did you think are extremely rich?

You are pointing to a very small minority.

[tibby.dude]

Tyranny of the majority?

Well it is called democracy ... you know where the party with the most votes from everybody sets the agenda ???.

I know it has been only a decade and a bit since we tried this newfangled thing so I can understand that is still very new to most of us ;).

[chiskop]

Tyranny of the majority?

No, its called democracy. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with it?

[bekdik]

"It's there (the Act). In practice, it frequently is poorly used. It is sadly abused, but it's there and the intent of the Act is abundantly clear," Manuel told MPs in the national assembly.

So the cabinet is aware of the abuse and wrong use. Why isn't something done to curb it?

[marine1]

You do mean autocracy !! :)

[dlk001]

You do mean autocracy !! :)

check the dictionary!:p That refers to Mugabe!

[tibby.dude]

You do mean autocracy !! :)

And you need a further education.


In an autocracy, a single person has all legal and political power, and makes all decisions by himself or herself. The person who holds the power is called an autocrat.

So Mr "I learned all about constitutional law from the back of the cereal box" please state why you think we are under an autocracy :).

[Getafix]

And you need a further education.



So Mr "I learned all about constitutional law from the back of the cereal box" please state why you think we are under an autocracy :).

At least he learned.

Much more than you can say.

[antowan]

Yes, that it true. But what proportion of black job-seekers did you think are extremely rich?

You are pointing to a very small minority.

That is not the point. The point is, that if a white kid from a poor family who worked himself through college comes face to face with a Sexwale or a Ramaphosa kid who got money from the get go and went to the best schools, he WILL lose!

[antowan]

And you need a further education.



So Mr "I learned all about constitutional law from the back of the cereal box" please state why you think we are under an autocracy :).

Well, we have a one party state. It is a step towards an autocracy. We need a change of government to solidify democracy in this country. It won't happen soon, if ever. I think the ANC will act out like Zanu-PF when they feel they are slipping.

[BobbyMac]

Well, we have a one party state. It is a step towards an autocracy. We need a change of government to solidify democracy in this country. It won't happen soon, if ever. I think the ANC will act out like Zanu-PF when they feel they are slipping.
Which has already been witnessed in the Western Cape with the unrelenting attempts to wrest power from the DA and oust the mayor.

[JK8]

That is not the point. The point is, that if a white kid from a poor family who worked himself through college comes face to face with a Sexwale or a Ramaphosa kid who got money from the get go and went to the best schools, he WILL lose!

From the get go? Were those 2 not in prison when the child was growing up?
Regardless of which non white family had money in the old days, they were still opressed and had to find ways to make money, they couldnt go study and get a job, they had to build their own life!!!

[tibby.dude]

Their diminished intellectual capacity do not allow them to argue sensibly.

Oh dear ... another moron from the Pupa school of genetics.

[werner]

they were still opressed and had to find ways to make money, they couldnt go study and get a job, they had to build their own life!!!

this is the weird bit I dont totally understand. forgive my ignorance.
I was in the tax-paying workforce prior to 1990. in the bad old days, yet I wasnt given any opportunity to go to UNI as it was too expensive. During the course of my work, I met more than a few black people, employed, educated and fantastic to work with. Nobody I knew had a problem with them. It may have been "one-off" situation, but it seems there were people who could still pull up their socks and get something done. I freely admit it was probably more difficult for them, but they somehow managed to make it work, and we all admired them for that

I also read of many schools in black areas that were being burnt down.

I'm missing something here, surely.

[JK8]

this is the weird bit I dont totally understand. forgive my ignorance.
I was in the tax-paying workforce prior to 1990. in the bad old days, yet I wasnt given any opportunity to go to UNI as it was too expensive. During the course of my work, I met more than a few black people, employed, educated and fantastic to work with. Nobody I knew had a problem with them. It may have been "one-off" situation, but it seems there were people who could still pull up their socks and get something done. I freely admit it was probably more difficult for them, but they somehow managed to make it work, and we all admired them for that

I also read of many schools in black areas that were being burnt down.

I'm missing something here, surely.

Ok so you claim you never had money to go study, but that option was available to you, the Non-whites even if they had money were still not allowed to study. Certain institutes like Rhodes allowed 5 non whites per year, Wits as well. All the others had to go overseas. But they persevered and were dedicated to their goals, others gave up, I dont blame them.

[dlk001]

Well, we have a one party state. It is a step towards an autocracy. We need a change of government to solidify democracy in this country. It won't happen soon, if ever. I think the ANC will act out like Zanu-PF when they feel they are slipping.

So you agree that we have democracy that needs to be solidified by a change of government. At the same time, being a one party state, its a step towards an autocracy (meaning a form of government in which the political power is held by a single person).

Looking at ANC, its obvious that inside the party and its alliance, there are different schools of thoughts about the direction of the respective organizations. To me, this seems to lead more towards a split rather than an autocracy. I cannot understand how ANC will end up dictated by a single person.

[DigitalSoldier]

Ok so you claim you never had money to go study, but that option was available to you, the Non-whites even if they had money were still not allowed to study. Certain institutes like Rhodes allowed 5 non whites per year, Wits as well. All the others had to go overseas. But they persevered and were dedicated to their goals, others gave up, I dont blame them.

There was and will always be UNISA, afaik even Mandela studied for his law degree at UNISA with OR Tambo during the apartheid years.

And then we had some(Manto, Ivy ) that went overseas got 20(jking :D) doctorate degrees but still dont know wtf they are doing.

[JK8]

There was and will always be UNISA, afaik even Mandela studied for his law degree at UNISA with OR Tambo during the apartheid years.

And then we had some(Manto, Ivy ) that went overseas got 20(jking :D) doctorate degrees but still dont know wtf they are doing.

And Mandela failed every year! Lol! But then passed the next:)
Unisa never was just another option, but how do you study Engineering or Medicine?

[Alan]

Tyranny of the majority?


No, its called democracy. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with it?

So in a "democracy" somebody can do what they like because they have the support of the majority?

I thought one of the cornerstone's of democracy was the protection of equal rights for minorities. Or is that only applicable to certain "western" democracies.

[Bageloo]

That is not the point. The point is, that if a white kid from a poor family who worked himself through college comes face to face with a Sexwale or a Ramaphosa kid who got money from the get go and went to the best schools, he WILL lose! This argument must be getting tired now.The likes of Sexwale and Ramaphosa have only been rich for the past 10 years or so whereas the majority of people looking for work are in their 20s and 30s. I don't see how the Ramaphosa or Sexwale kid, whose fathers were in prison when they grew up has an advantage over a white kid for which the government spent 4 X on education compared to what they spent on blacks?

[tibby.dude]

So in a "democracy" somebody can do what they like because they have the support of the majority?

Not always ... see Bill of Rights in our constitution.

[DigitalSoldier]

That is not the point. The point is, that if a white kid from a poor family who worked himself through college comes face to face with a Sexwale or a Ramaphosa kid who got money from the get go and went to the best schools, he WILL lose!



From the get go? Were those 2 not in prison when the child was growing up?
Regardless of which non white family had money in the old days, they were still opressed and had to find ways to make money, they couldnt go study and get a job, they had to build their own life!!!

JK8 thats not the point there are lots of other black kids living in Sandton that had it good from the start... Look at Papi his kids are still young born after the "struggle" and they had it good from the start.

Another example the black kids that were driving on the buss with the supposedly racist driver they are in a rich school born after the "struggle" and they will probably get a job because of their skin colour.

[Bageloo]

So in a "democracy" somebody can do what they like because they have the support of the majority?

I thought one of the cornerstone's of democracy was the protection of equal rights for minorities. Or is that only applicable to certain "western" democracies.which of your equal rights do you feel are not being protected? Have you contacted the human rights commission about it?

[DigitalSoldier]

This argument must be getting tired now.The likes of Sexwale and Ramaphosa have only been rich for the past 10 years or so whereas the majority of people looking for work are in their 20s and 30s. I don't see how the Ramaphosa or Sexwale kid, whose fathers were in prison when they grew up has an advantage over a white kid for which the government spent 4 X on education compared to what they spent on blacks?

So the kids from a black middle class couple born in the past 5 years will also have the advantage of AA because of their skin colour ?

[Skeptik]

Good ... that is what the majority of us wants.
What, to fire Trevor?? Is he not black enough?

[Sneeky]

The ANC have misled the minority groups.
I did not vote yes in the referendum to marginalize my children.
Had I known this would be the outcome I, along with the other +- 70% of the white population that did vote yes, more than likely would of voted no.

[Bageloo]

So the kids from a black middle class couple born in the past 5 years will also have the advantage of AA because of their skin colour ?15 years from now, we might not even have AA anymore. AA is still needed today but 15 years from now is a long time, alot might have changed by then including the gvt itself.

[dlk001]

So the kids from a black middle class couple born in the past 5 years will also have the advantage of AA because of their skin colour ?

Under current AA policy, yes indeed. Under the prevailing AA policy at a future when the kids are old, we don't know.

[Skeptik]

Ok so you claim you never had money to go study, but that option was available to you, the Non-whites even if they had money were still not allowed to study. Certain institutes like Rhodes allowed 5 non whites per year, Wits as well. All the others had to go overseas. But they persevered and were dedicated to their goals, others gave up, I dont blame them.
I remember those black students. A sullen lot they were who didn't socialise at all, never got involved in campus affairs or charity work and had chips the size of Table Mountain on their shoulders. They were not a good advertisement for AA. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if that set back their cause.

I'm also going to support the notion that AA new Apartheid students have never had it so good. They are not just being given a leg up, they are taking the express lift - all paid for and packaged.:p

[JK8]

JK8 thats not the point there are lots of other black kids living in Sandton that had it good from the start... Look at Papi his kids are still young born after the "struggle" and they had it good from the start.

Another example the black kids that were driving on the buss with the supposedly racist driver they are in a rich school born after the "struggle" and they will probably get a job because of their skin colour.

The kids in Sandton that are rich from the start are only 10 - 13 years old.:rolleyes:

That whole bus thing was false, its was the spoilt white kids just making up stories, and we all know you guys reacted to it!

[DigitalSoldier]

Under current AA policy, yes indeed. Under the prevailing AA policy at a future when the kids are old, we don't know.

Ok, so all these black pupils in Crawford college today or those that finished at the spesific school in the last 2-3 years will get jobs BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOUR ?

I thought AA is to help previously disadvantaged kids ? Paying R40 000+ per year at a school surely doesnt make those kids previously disadvantaged?

[DigitalSoldier]

The kids in Sandton that are rich from the start are only 10 - 13 years old.:rolleyes:

That whole bus thing was false, its was the spoilt white kids just making up stories, and we all know you guys reacted to it!

I know it was false I even said so in my previous post! But my point was there were black kids aged between 14-18 from a rich uptown school on that buss as well. How are they previously disadvantaged ?

[JK8]

I know it was false I even said so in my previous post! But my point was there were black kids aged between 14-18 from a rich uptown school on that buss as well. How are they previously disadvantaged ?

They never had clothes or a decent meal on the table?? Who knows.
The fact is when they were 0 - 10yrs old, they didnt have the "luxuries" of the whites.

[Sneeky]

Because they are bleeekkk DS. Thats what the constitution says.
It is a great document that entrenches equal right for all, irrespective of gender or race, then later goes on to say 'hold on' we were just kidding there, discrimination can be race based if it is done so (bites tongue) fairly.

[DigitalSoldier]

They never had clothes or a decent meal on the table?? Who knows.
The fact is when they were 0 - 10yrs old, they didnt have the "luxuries" of the whites.

About these spesific kids on the Parktown bus and others in the same situation, all in the same school as whites getting the same education. But still they will be getting an advantage in the job market because of skin colour.

Remember there are white kids that grow up poor that dont even eat every night but are still excluded from the AA market.

[Bageloo]

I'm also going to support the notion that AA new Apartheid students have never had it so good. They are not just being given a leg up, they are taking the express lift - all paid for and packaged.:p Financial aid at university is based on financial need which is determined by proof of parents income. There's a cut off line above which financial aid is not granted. The likes of Ramaphosa and Tokyo's kids do not qualify. They have to pay out of their own pockets.

[Skeptik]

Financial aid at university is based on financial need which is determined by proof of parents income. There's a cut off line above which financial aid is not granted. The likes of Ramaphosa and Tokyo's kids do not qualify. They have to pay out of their own pockets.
You miss another point. (Plz pay attention)
During apartheid white people did not have their University fees paid for them, poor or not. Bursaries were available, but you had to work VERY hard for them and they were few and far between.
We're not talking about crooked corrupt people like the former ANC cadres who got extremely rich extremely quickly (too quickly to have earned it fairly :mad: )

[Bageloo]

You miss another point. (Plz pay attention)
During apartheid white people did not have their University fees paid for them, poor or not. Bursaries were available, but you had to work VERY hard for them and they were few and far between.

I went to the University of Natal - Edgewood Campus between '93 and '96. All white students had their tuition fees paid for by the Natal Education Department(NED). That campus was opened to black students in '92. We black students belonged to the Kwazulu Department of Education and Culture. That department did not have money so we were refered to as private students and had to pay for our own tuition fees until '95 when all the departments were merged into one. From then on all students' tuition fees were paid for by the department.

[JK8]

When I was at Wits, If your M-score was over 30 points they pay for you first year, regardless of colour.

[Gothan]

I went to the University of Natal - Edgewood Campus between '93 and '96. All white students had their tuition fees paid for by the Natal Education Department(NED). That campus was opened to black students in '92. We black students belonged to the Kwazulu Department of Education and Culture. That department did not have money so we were refered to as private students and had to pay for our own tuition fees until '95 when all the departments were merged into one. From then on all students' tuition fees were paid for by the department.

I went to the Potchefstroom university between 92 and 95, and I'm sorry, I had to pay my lilly white buttocks off, or I should rather say, my parents had to pay theirs off, and I remember then doing a diploma in IT from techSA, in my first year I got 4 distinctions out of 5, and guess what, the bank did not want to give me a student loan???!!!!

[BobbyMac]

So you agree that we have democracy that needs to be solidified by a change of government. At the same time, being a one party state, its a step towards an autocracy (meaning a form of government in which the political power is held by a single person).

Looking at ANC, its obvious that inside the party and its alliance, there are different schools of thoughts about the direction of the respective organizations. To me, this seems to lead more towards a split rather than an autocracy. I cannot understand how ANC will end up dictated by a single person.
It only takes one that is power hungry and ambitious enough to do it. Mad Bob up north was such a person - the question is, do we have one like him here? I think we do, and I think his name is Jacob Zuma.

[hj2k_x]

Not always ... see Bill of Rights in our constitution.

Not always?? Read the Constitution again my friend.

[dlk001]

You miss another point. (Plz pay attention)
During apartheid white people did not have their University fees paid for them, poor or not.

Compared to now, what is the policy?

At UCT, most white students in my Civil's class had Bursaries. Again, just my experience in my Civil's class.


Bursaries were available, but you had to work VERY hard for them and they were few and far between.

UCT had a financial aid system for everyone regardless of color. However, I'd see more black students at the financial aid office than white students. My guess is that most white students had bursaries. (just an extrapolation from the fact that in my class, they did)

[Bageloo]

I went to the Potchefstroom university between 92 and 95, and I'm sorry, I had to pay my lilly white buttocks off, or I should rather say, my parents had to pay theirs off, and I remember then doing a diploma in IT from techSA, in my first year I got 4 distinctions out of 5, and guess what, the bank did not want to give me a student loan???!!!!
Many more white people payed their own fees but that was an illustration of one situation that existed. It's a pity most of those white students who had free education went straight to London after graduating.

[hj2k_x]

Compared to now, what is the policy?

At UCT, most white students in my Civil's class had Bursaries. Again, just my experience in my Civil's class.



UCT had a financial aid system for everyone regardless of color. However, I'd see more black students at the financial aid office than white students. My guess is that most white students had bursaries. (just an extrapolation from the fact that in my class, they did)

Now things are a bit different. Depending on the faculty, as a white student you stand almost no chance of getting any kind of financial aid at all from UCT.

If you are black you are almost guarenteed of help, no matter the faculty. Unless you are really really rich.

I speak from four years of experience.

[dlk001]

Many more while people payed their own fees but that was an illustration of one situation that existed. It's a pity most of those white students who had free education went straight to London after graduating.

That is something that pissed me off. It also happened at CSIR, my division at least. We spent government's money to educate people from undergraduate level right through MSc and Phd level and they left the country for lucrative posts. At least, they started doing something about it before I left in 2003.

What shocked me is that when I eventually got an opportunity to study, they locked me into some contract for AA purposes.

[Bageloo]

UCT had a financial aid system for everyone regardless of color. However, I'd see more black students at the financial aid office than white students. My guess is that most white students had bursaries. (just an extrapolation from the fact that in my class, they did) Or their parents did not qualify for aid.

[DigitalSoldier]

Many more white people payed their own fees but that was an illustration of one situation that existed. It's a pity most of those white students who had free education went straight to London after graduating.

Glad to see you not generalising that all white people got everything for free.. ;)

[dlk001]

Or their parents did not qualify for aid.

Yes, that is another reason. They were very strict at assessing financial needs.

[BobbyMac]

UCT had a financial aid system for everyone regardless of color. However, I'd see more black students at the financial aid office than white students. My guess is that most white students had bursaries. (just an extrapolation from the fact that in my class, they did)

Oh just because the kids weren't in the financial aid lane means they got bursaries? Bloody hell. Ever heard of a student loan? :mad: think before you type *****. :mad:

[Bageloo]

Glad to see you not generalising that all white people got everything for free.. ;) But they still got 10X more than what blacks got. That's not a general statement, it was apartheid govt policy.


At one point in the 1970’s, per capita spending on Black education slipped to a tenth of that spent on Whites.

http://sangonet.org.za/portal/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5223&Itemid=374

[BobbyMac]

That is something that pissed me off. It also happened at CSIR, my division at least. We spent government's money to educate people from undergraduate level right through MSc and Phd level and they left the country for lucrative posts. At least, they started doing something about it before I left in 2003.
What's your point? I left the UK after finishing my degrees there - and came to this place - so they should be pissed at me for doing the same thing? What about all the cabinet ministers holding foreign degrees? What an oddball thing to get pissed about.

[Bageloo]

What's your point? I left the UK after finishing my degrees there - and came to this place - so they should be pissed at me for doing the same thing? What about all the cabinet ministers holding foreign degrees? What an oddball thing to get pissed about. Did the Uk GVT pay for your studies Bobby...? Explain how you can link the two.
I suppose CSIR should have tied those people down to some kind of obligation for a period not less than the duration of their studies.

[BobbyMac]

Did the Uk GVT pay for your studies Bobby...? Explain how you can link the two.
I suppose CSIR should have tied those people down to some kind of obligation for a period not less than the duration of their studies.
Have you got any idea how much of your studies is actually subsidised by the institution you're at?

And for the record, I worked my butt off to get through university - and I received a scholarship. Don't be naive mate, people have been leaving various countries for decades after acquiring their degrees - irrespective of how it was "paid for". And on the note of bursaries - there used to be a requirement that a) you passed it and b) you worked for the company offering the bursary for at least a period of time once completing your qualification. Surely this is still done today. If not, then the people/company/trustees involved with the bursary administration and terms thereof are to blame.

[Skeptik]

Many more white people payed their own fees but that was an illustration of one situation that existed. It's a pity most of those white students who had free education went straight to London after graduating.
What's your source for this claim?

[Bageloo]

Have you got any idea how much of your studies is actually subsidised by the institution you're at?

And for the record, I worked my butt off to get through university - and I received a scholarship. Don't be naive mate, people have been leaving various countries for decades after acquiring their degrees - irrespective of how it was "paid for". And on the note of bursaries - there used to be a requirement that a) you passed it and b) you worked for the company offering the bursary for at least a period of time once completing your qualification. Surely this is still done today. If not, then the people/company/trustees involved with the bursary administration and terms thereof are to blame. you compared studying in the UK and what DLK001 was refering to i.e. a particular institution (CSIR) putting it's own people through university and then having those people leaving for overseas jobs afterwards. Those two are not the same. That is why I asked you if the UK gvt or any institution paid for your fees. Did you have any obligation to them or was it in a form of a scholarship?

[BobbyMac]

you compared studying in the UK and what DLK001 was refering to i.e. a particular institution (CSIR) putting it's own people through university and then having those people leaving for overseas jobs afterwards. Those two are not the same. That is why I asked you if the UK gvt or any institution paid for your fees. Did you have any obligation to them or was it in a form of a scholarship?
Whose fault is that? If the CSIR does not tie studies with contracts then it's only them to blame. I've already stated that I received a scholarship.

[VJB 449]

Good ... that is what the majority of us wants.

A pity you don't know what is good for you ...

[Syndyre]

Well it is called democracy ... you know where the party with the most votes from everybody sets the agenda ???.

I know it has been only a decade and a bit since we tried this newfangled thing so I can understand that is still very new to most of us ;).

Not everything can be justified by democracy. If during Apartheid whites were the majority and allowed everybody to vote but as they were the majority and continued to win still set the same policies would that be justified by democracy??? :rolleyes:

[Syndyre]

Not always ... see Bill of Rights in our constitution.

The one that allows discrimination as long as it is fair. Great doublespeak there.

[hj2k_x]

Not everything can be justified by democracy. If during Apartheid whites were the majority and allowed everybody to vote but as they were the majority and continued to win still set the same policies would that be justified by democracy??? :rolleyes:

This is an extremely important and seems to be too difficult for many to grasp.

There is still a difference between acting democratically and doing what is right and what is the best thing to do.

[Syndyre]

15 years from now, we might not even have AA anymore. AA is still needed today but 15 years from now is a long time, alot might have changed by then including the gvt itself.

Then why was there no sunset clause from the outset?

[Syndyre]

This is an extremely important and seems to be too difficult for many to grasp.

There is still a difference between acting democratically and doing what is right and what is the best thing to do.

Exactly, protection of minorities is a cornerstone of most civilised democracies.

[hj2k_x]

Exactly, protection of minorities is a cornerstone of most civilised democracies.

We were discussing just this point in my Constitutional law tutorial yesterday.

[Iwojima]

Then why was there no sunset clause from the outset?
Exactly. There has been no deadline set for the end of AA. Government needs to define a point in the future that they believe the inequalities have been rectified.

If non-whites are prepared to raise a generation of people happy to get by on skin colour alone then there is an issue to be sorted out because it can only result in more inequality.

tibby and Bageloo: It is clear to me that you support skin colour and not morals, ethics, principles and general civility. I class you with all the misguided Zuma, Winnie Mandela, Mugabe, etc supporters whose motives are so blatantly obvious.

[Skeptik]

Exactly, protection of minorities is a cornerstone of most civilised democracies.
Read all the words you have used.:D

Exactly. There has been no deadline set for the end of AA. Government needs to define a point in the future that they believe the inequalities have been rectified.

If non-whites are prepared to raise a generation of people happy to get by on skin colour alone then there is an issue to be sorted out because it can only result in more inequality.

tibby and Bageloo: It is clear to me that you support skin colour and not morals, ethics, principles and general civility. I class you with all the misguided Zuma, Winnie Mandela, Mugabe, etc supporters whose motives are so blatantly obvious.

This is the crunch of the new Affirmative Apartheid. The way things are going, it will be a very long time before it ends. Pupils today are struggling a lot with some of the key subjects. To me, this is odd, because you don't need high-technology to study MATHS. People have been learning it on slates for goodness sake. All you need is an exam pad and a good text book and away you go. So the problem appears to be much deeper.

The government also doesn't spend a lot on education. They would rather reduce the standards required to pass, it seems.

The more these problems remain, the longer AA will be with us. AA benefits the ANC voter, so where is the incentive to call a halt to it??

[VJB 449]

Then why was there no sunset clause from the outset?

Because getting stuff for free is nice, why close the door on it? People in Africa don't like to work for stuff if you can get it for free.

[Syndyre]

Read all the words you have used.:D


That was my point, we clearly don't live in one. :rolleyes:

[Bageloo]

Exactly. There has been no deadline set for the end of AA. Government needs to define a point in the future that they believe the inequalities have been rectified. That is entirely dependant on the pace of transformation. The slower the pace, the longer it takes for us to achieve equality.




If non-whites are prepared to raise a generation of people happy to get by on skin colour alone then there is an issue to be sorted out because it can only result in more inequality.
No one ever said anything about getting by on skin colour aolne.

Affirmative action measures are measures designed to ensure that suitably qualified people from designated groups have equal employment opportunities and are equitably represented in all occupational categories and levels in the workforce of a designated employer..."



tibby and Bageloo: It is clear to me that you support skin colour and not morals, ethics, principles and general civility. I class you with all the misguided Zuma, Winnie Mandela, Mugabe, etc supporters whose motives are so blatantly obvious.Wrong. I don't support skin colour. I support equality. Something you perhaps are still trying to block even today.

What are Zuma and Winnie's motives?

[hj2k_x]

Wrong. I don't support skin colour. I support equality. Something you perhaps are still trying to block even today.

What are Zuma and Winnie's motives.


Apartheid did not support equality.

Affirmative Action does not support equality.

[Bageloo]

Because getting stuff for free is nice, why close the door on it? People in Africa don't like to work for stuff if you can get it for free. No one is getting stuff for free. I'm very qualified for this job that I'm doing. If there was no affirmative action, I would have been overlooked in favour of a white person who could have been even less qualified than myself.

[hj2k_x]

No one is getting stuff for free. I'm very qualified for this job that I'm doing. If there was no affirmative action, I would have been overlooked in favour of a white person who could have been even less qualified than myself.

Untrue. Completely untrue

[JK8]

Apartheid did not support equality.

Affirmative Action does not support equality.

But AA is based on equality.

[hj2k_x]

But AA is based on equality.

You must be joking.

[Bageloo]

Apartheid did not support equality.

Affirmative Action does not support equality.Apartheid perpetuated inequality. Affirmative action is seeking to reddress that inequality. At the moment we are not equal. We can't just carry on as if it's business as usual.

[Bageloo]

Untrue. Completely untrueAnd you base that on what exactly?

[hj2k_x]

Apartheid perpetuated inequality. Affirmative action is seeking to reddress that inequality. At the moment we are not equal. We can't just carry on as if it's business as usual.

Affirmative Action is seeking to perpetuate that inequality now, not redress it.

[hj2k_x]

And you base that on what exactly?

The fact that we live in a new South Africa where all people are supposed to be treated EQUALLY.

[dlk001]

Oh just because the kids weren't in the financial aid lane means they got bursaries? Bloody hell. Ever heard of a student loan? :mad: think before you type *****. :mad:

Didn't you read what I wrote?

[JK8]

Untrue. Completely untrue

Its very possible he could have.

[Bageloo]

You must be joking.Where there's equality, affirmative action is neither needed nor applied. That should tell you something about the objectives of AA

[hj2k_x]

Its very possible he could have.

In what country have you guys been living for the past 11 years?

[hj2k_x]

Where there's equality, affirmative action is neither needed nor applied. That should tell you something about the objectives of AA

What? Affirmative Action is not needed? I think I am missing your point.

[dlk001]

Did the Uk GVT pay for your studies Bobby...? Explain how you can link the two.
I suppose CSIR should have tied those people down to some kind of obligation for a period not less than the duration of their studies.

Yes, that changed during 2003. Before that, it was basically "free" and people abused it.

[Bageloo]

Affirmative Action is seeking to perpetuate that inequality now, not redress it.
Read my post above about AA and places where there is equality... and stop talking with your emotions. Look at the facts, all companies that need to apply affirmative action have inequalities within their ranks, Like an all white all male management for example.

[dlk001]

Whose fault is that? If the CSIR does not tie studies with contracts then it's only them to blame. I've already stated that I received a scholarship.

At the end of the day, it was the CSIR's fault. I was just pissed off because I knew that the bursary holders were deliberately abusing the system. Fortunately, it is better now.

[hj2k_x]

Read my post above about AA and places where there is equality... and stop talking with your emotions. Look at the facts, all companies that need to apply affirmative action have inequalities within their ranks, Like an all white all male management for example.

Unlike most people on here I prefer to argue with facts and not emotions.

All white male management is one thing. What AA proposes to do and is still doing is incorrect.

I am sure we agree that if two people graduate from the same university, after having been exposed to the same post-democracy system of education, one is black and one is white. When applying for a job, their application should be based on merit and nothing else.

[Bageloo]

What? Affirmative Action is not needed? I think I am missing your point.
A company with all the desiganted groups equitably represented in their workforce does not need affirmative action. Now I'm begining to doubt that you understand affirmative action fully. I

[Syndyre]

Its amazing how easily people buy into ANC propaganda.

[hj2k_x]

A company with all the desiganted groups equitably represented in their workforce does not need affirmative action. Now I'm begining to doubt that you understand affirmative action fully. I

Read my post directly above this one.

[Syndyre]

Amazing how quickly things change once it becomes inconvenient:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20070301133304833C523109

I say screw them, you can't treat your citizens as some sort of resource to be used and then forgotten when its no longer politically expedient to have them around. Thats what the apartheid government did, we don't want to go back there. If I was forced overseas by AA and they tried to lure me back I'd tell them exactly what I thought of the idea...

[Bageloo]

Unlike most people on here I prefer to argue with facts and not emotions.

All white male management is one thing. What AA proposes to do and is still doing is incorrect.

I am sure we agree that if two people graduate from the same university, after having been exposed to the same post-democracy system of education, one is black and one is white. When applying for a job, their application should be based on merit and nothing else. If the company they are applying to has an all white workforce, they should hire the black candidate to transform it. On the other hand if the company has more than enough black employees they can hire anyone of the two. Due to apartheid past the former scenario is likely to prevail in most private sector companies hence the need for affirmative action.

[hj2k_x]

If the company they are applying to has an all white workforce, they should hire the black candidate to transform it. On the other hand if the company has more than enough black employees they can hire anyone of the two. Due to apartheid past the former scenario is likely to prevail in most private sector companies hence the need for affirmative action.

The point is, in the real world, the guy will not be applying for a management position.

This means that it will not an all white team which he is joining. So he will be favoured over the white guy in situations where the white guys is better qualified.

This leads to companies with staff who are just there to look good and make up quotas which leads to poor economic outcomes.

[JK8]

The point is, in the real world, the guy will not be applying for a management position.

This means that it will not an all white team which he is joining. So he will be favoured over the white guy in situations where the white guys is better qualified.

This leads to companies with staff who are just there to look good and make up quotas which leads to poor economic outcomes.

But if our Minister of finance says its here to stay and his view is its improving economic outcomes, what make you so qualified on what is better or worst for the country?

[hj2k_x]

But if our Minister of finance says its here to stay and his view is its improving economic outcomes, what make you so qualified on what is better or worst for the country?

In my opinion, I would rather have the best qualified person doing his or her job. For me, that ensures the best and fairest outcome both economic and otherwise.

It is essential that everyone has the chance to be in a position to be able to be the best person for a particular job. Achieving this is the problem in this country.

[PDropa]

Oh no. i thought AA was alchy's anon. oh well will look elsewhere for drinking buddies

[BobbyMac]

But if our Minister of finance says its here to stay and his view is its improving economic outcomes, what make you so qualified on what is better or worst for the country?
Just a little teeny fact: Trevor himself is not actually qualified to do his own job.

[hj2k_x]

Oh no. i thought AA was alchy's anon. oh well will look elsewhere for drinking buddies

lol, I thought so too when i clicked on the link. This has proved to be a great debate so far though. I love debates :)

[PDropa]

Will we all go 4 drinks after the debate.?.?

[Bageloo]

It is essential that everyone has the chance to be in a position to be able to be the best person for a particular job. Achieving this is the problem in this country.
That's exactly what AA is seeking to do. Ensuring that those who otherwise would not have been given chances, are actually given those chances. Descrimination against blacks by whites still happens today. There are so many exposes on 3rd degree varying from white people not wanting to let property to black people and hotels claiming they are fully booked as soon as they realise it's a black person etc. Apartheid instilled amongst whites the notion that a black person is not good enough.

[JK8]

Just a little teeny fact: Trevor himself is not actually qualified to do his own job.

So lol wait you saying Trevors not doing a good job, and some white person can do better?:rolleyes:

[hj2k_x]

That's exactly what AA is seeking to do. Ensuring that those who otherwise would not have been given chances, are actually given those chances. Descrimination against blacks by whites still happens today. There are so many exposes on 3rd degree varying from white people not wanting to let property to black people and hotels claiming they are fully booked as soon as they realise it's a black person etc. Apartheid instilled amongst whites the notion that a black person is not good enough.

Granted.

In my opinion if you are not good enough for a certain job, then someone who is should be given the job ahead of you. And by not good enough, I mean qualified.

[JK8]

In my opinion, I would rather have the best qualified person doing his or her job. For me, that ensures the best and fairest outcome both economic and otherwise.

It is essential that everyone has the chance to be in a position to be able to be the best person for a particular job. Achieving this is the problem in this country.

And how would you achieive it Mr Minister?

[BobbyMac]

So lol wait you saying Trevors not doing a good job, and some white person can do better?:rolleyes:

No moron. Trevor is not qualified for his current position.

[hj2k_x]

And how would you achieive it Mr Minister?

As a citizen of this democratic country it is my right and duty to express my opinion about topical issues, which I am doing.

It is not my duty to try to fix them. If I feel something unjust is taking place I will most certainly speak out against it, but I am under no obligation whatsoever to try to propose a solution.

[JK8]

No moron. Trevor is not qualified for his current position.

Kindly elaborate?

[JK8]

As a citizen of this democratic country it is my right and duty to express my opinion about topical issues, which I am doing.

It is not my duty to try to fix them. If I feel something unjust is taking place I will most certainly speak out against it, but I am under no obligation whatsoever to try to propose a solution.

You cant just say hes not good enough without substantiating it or providing a solution.:rolleyes:

[BobbyMac]

Kindly elaborate?
Mr Manuel matriculated from Harold Cressy High School in Cape Town and completed a national diploma in civil and structural engineering. Not exactly anything to do with Economics is it?

[JK8]

Mr Manuel matriculated from Harold Cressy High School in Cape Town and completed a national diploma in civil and structural engineering. Not exactly anything to do with Economics is it?

Link?

[rwenzori]

That's exactly what AA is seeking to do. Ensuring that those who otherwise would not have been given chances, are actually given those chances.


Simultaneously ensuring that others are denied such chances purely on the basis of their race.

AA, BEE, BBEE, BBBEEEEEE ( or whatever the latest is ) are all discriminatory policies because... er ... they discriminate by race!

[BobbyMac]

Link?
Google it.

[PDropa]

I can bearly type yet i am an above average adminstrator. what you trying to say? Someone gave me a chance and i have blossomed into the position i am today!

[BobbyMac]

I can bearly type yet i am an above average adminstrator. what you trying to say? Someone gave me a chance and i have blossomed into the position i am today!
Cool. Let's make you Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[hj2k_x]

Mr Manuel matriculated from Harold Cressy High School in Cape Town and completed a national diploma in civil and structural engineering. Not exactly anything to do with Economics is it?

This I did not know. Interesting.

*googles

[Bageloo]

Granted.

In my opinion if you are not good enough for a certain job, then someone who is should be given the job ahead of you. And by not good enough, I mean qualified. Now we are getting somewhere. If you factor out human nature, i.e bias, prejudice, discrimination, favourtism, nepotism, corruption, etc. that is a perfect statement for us to live by. But we live with the reality of these horrible human traits.

[hj2k_x]

Now we are getting somewhere. If you factor out human nature, i.e bias, prejudice, discrimination, favourtism, nepotism, corruption, etc. that is a perfect statement for us to leave by. But we live with the reality of these horrible human traits.

But when we can eliminate some of them rather than promote them, then we should.

[JK8]

Google it.

Cant find it, civil engineering coupled with some other economics qualification is rather good and suited IMO.

[hj2k_x]

Cant find it, civil engineering coupled with some other economics qualification is rather good and suited IMO.

See here (http://www.anc.org.za/people/manuel.html)

[JK8]

But when we can eliminate some of them rather than promote them, then we should.

When or If, its those traits that just make us human.

[Tanarri]

All that I would love to see 30 years from now are new companies that was or will be founded sometime in the near future that reaches the economic power of some of the larger companies in SA today. But these companies shouldn't be related to the government. Looking forward to see it. Not impossible.

[hj2k_x]

When or If, its those traits that just make us human.

I am sorry, what?

[BobbyMac]

Cant find it, civil engineering coupled with some other economics qualification is rather good and suited IMO.

He holds no econ qualifications whatsoever. Therefore, Trevor Manuel is not qualified for his position. Period.

[hj2k_x]

He holds no econ qualifications whatsoever. Therefore, Trevor Manuel is not qualified for his position. Period.

If you click the link I posted his profile on the ANC websites corroborates this idea.

[JK8]

He holds no econ qualifications whatsoever. Therefore, Trevor Manuel is not qualified for his position. Period.

Link to his job spec?

[hj2k_x]

Link to his job spec?

Dude this link here! http://www.anc.org.za/people/manuel.html!!

[JK8]

See here (http://www.anc.org.za/people/manuel.html)

It doesnt say what or even if he studied anything.

[JK8]

Dude this link here! http://www.anc.org.za/people/manuel.html!!

This is a vague outline on Mr Manual. where he started and where he is now.

[hj2k_x]

This is a vague outline on Mr Manual. where he started and where he is now.

Another government website : http://www.info.gov.za/leaders/ministers/finance.htm

[Bageloo]

But when we can eliminate some of them rather than promote them, then we should. The capitalist system thrives on exploitaition and self realisation. We need policies to put on the breaks on these things especially in country with a history of institutionalised discrimination and exploitation. The reality of our country is that whites hold the economic power and blacks hold the political power. Econmic power cannot be transfered in a capitalist environment without a bit of political intervention. Remember under capitalism the rich become richer and the poor become poorer. In other countries this is a class debate but in our country it's inevitably a race debate because different classes based on race were created by apartheid.

[hj2k_x]

The capitalist system thrives on exploitaition and self realisation. We need policies to put on the breaks on these things especially in country with a history of institutionalised discrimination and exploitation. The reality of our country is that whites hold the economic power and blacks hold the political power. Econmic power cannot be transfered in a capitalist environment without a bit of political intervention. Remember under capitalism the rich become richer and the poor become poorer. In other coutries this is a class debate but in our country it's inevitable a race debate because different classes based on race were created by apartheid.

Wise words indeed. We are starting to get onto the same page here :)

I still stand by the comments that I have already made though.

Qualified people with the same education should be exposed to the same treatment when applying for a job, unless there are extraordinary circumstances like a company still being all white. Something which is not every likely in 2007 South Africa.

[JK8]

Another government website : http://www.info.gov.za/leaders/ministers/finance.htm

* Elected by the World Economic Forum as a Global Leader for Tomorrow (January 1994).
* Awarded the Africa Prize by the German Africa Foundation, jointly with the then South African Minister of Finance, Derek Keys (September 1994).
* Named Euromoney's African Finance Minister of the year (1997).
* Inducted as a member of South African Academy of Engineering (February 2001).
* Honorary Doctorate of Commerce from University of Stellenbosch (December 2001).
* Honorary Doctorate of Commerce from University of the Western Cape (13 March 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Technikon South Africa (15 November 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Peninsula Technikon (16 March 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Economics from University of Natal (02 April 2003).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Free State Technikon (2003).
* Honorary Doctorate of Law from Rhodes University (2006).
* Presidential award by the Institute of Personnel Magement (IPM), Johannesburg (2October 2006).
* Management Excellence Award (MANEX) by Wits Business School (5 October 2006)

You should be honored!! I am!

[BobbyMac]

* Elected by the World Economic Forum as a Global Leader for Tomorrow (January 1994).
* Awarded the Africa Prize by the German Africa Foundation, jointly with the then South African Minister of Finance, Derek Keys (September 1994).
* Named Euromoney's African Finance Minister of the year (1997).
* Inducted as a member of South African Academy of Engineering (February 2001).
* Honorary Doctorate of Commerce from University of Stellenbosch (December 2001).
* Honorary Doctorate of Commerce from University of the Western Cape (13 March 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Technikon South Africa (15 November 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Peninsula Technikon (16 March 2002).
* Honorary Doctorate of Economics from University of Natal (02 April 2003).
* Honorary Doctorate of Technology from Free State Technikon (2003).
* Honorary Doctorate of Law from Rhodes University (2006).
* Presidential award by the Institute of Personnel Magement (IPM), Johannesburg (2October 2006).
* Management Excellence Award (MANEX) by Wits Business School (5 October 2006)

You should be honored!! I am!

Erm, dude, Honorary doctorates do not a doctor make.

http://www.mbendi.co.za/vpsatxm.htm

[hj2k_x]

Erm, dude, Honorary doctorates do not a doctor make.

http://www.mbendi.co.za/vpsatxm.htm

Hehe. I knew he would quote that. You don't have to do anything to get one of those! Sorry man.

[JK8]

Erm, dude, Honorary doctorates do not a doctor make.

http://www.mbendi.co.za/vpsatxm.htm

Its still recognition for something.
Who else has more?

[BobbyMac]

Its still recognition for something.
Who else has more?
It's only an award. Many many people have received similar awards. Often it is bestowed by the university as part of a publicity stunt. The award is really just there to stroke the recipients ego while getting a popular person "associated" with the institution. It actually means nothing.

[Bageloo]

Wise words indeed. We are starting to get onto the same page here :)

I still stand by the comments that I have already made though.

Qualified people with the same education should be exposed to the same treatment when applying for a job, unless there are extraordinary circumstances like a company still being all white. Something which is not every likely in 2007 South Africa. I don't know what the exact affirmative action quotas are but for a company that employs 50 or less people, affirmative action does not apply. Which means that all those 50 employees can be all white. If you don't count the tea ladies and cleaners, I don't think you need to go far to find companies like that.

[Tassidar]

OT
Hi JK8,

Interesting sig, it reminds me of a quote by Winston Churchill:

If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.

Of course, he was talking of British politics.

/OT

[Bageloo]

Hehe. I knew he would quote that. You don't have to do anything to get one of those! Sorry man.
aren't those in recognition of some achievement or contribution...? sort of like the knights and the sirs and the dukes and all that english crap...

[hj2k_x]

aren't those in recognition of some achievement or contribution...? sort of like the knights and the sirs and the dukes and all that english crap...

Yes, sorry. I meant it does not mean that one has studied in that field.

[hj2k_x]

I don't know what the exact affirmative action quotas are but for a company that employs 50 or less people, affirmative action does not apply. Which means that all those 50 employees can be all white. If you don't count the tea ladies and cleaners, I don't think you need to go far to find companies like that.

Is the number 50? I did not think this was the case. Is there not a call for the quotas to be applied to ALL companies no matter what the size in the next few years?

I know that at least a third of all management positions were meant to be held by black people in a few year's time. In fact I think the figure might have been higher than this...

Will do some more research. No good arguing facts of which I am not sure.

[JK8]

OT
Hi JK8,

Interesting sig, it reminds me of a quote by Winston Churchill:


Of course, he was talking of British politics.

/OT

OT/

Taught youd like some more.

What is conservativism? Is it not the adherence to the old and tried against the new and untried? - Abraham Lincoln

A conservative is a man who believes that nothing should be done for the first time. - Alfred E. Wiggam

Conservative: a statesman who is enamoured of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. - Ambrose Bierce

Conservatism discards Prescription, shrinks from Principle, disavows Progress; having rejected all respect for antiquity, it offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future. - Benjamin Disraeli

A Conservative Government is an organized hypocrisy. ^

A conservative is a man who is too cowardly to fight and too fat to run. - Elbert Hubbard

A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

I really like this one, has a bit of a SA tinge to it.

Liberals feel unworthy of their possessions. Conservatives feel they deserve everything they've stolen. - Mort Sahl
OT/

[BobbyMac]

aren't those in recognition of some achievement or contribution...? sort of like the knights and the sirs and the dukes and all that english crap...My previous post refers.

Many many famous people have received Honorary Doctorates and similar awards before, including:

Bono (U2 Leadsinger)
Bill Clinton
George W Bush
Pierce Brosnan
Eddie Jordan
Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_on_Nelson_Mand ela - considerably more than Manuel)
Tiger Woods
Gary Player
and even the eternally stupid Jacob Zuma

[hj2k_x]

Good link here (http://www.polity.org.za/html/govdocs/bills/1997/equity.html?rebookmark=1) about the Employment Equity Bill.

[hj2k_x]

My previous post refers.

Many many famous people have received Honorary Doctorates and similar awards before, including:

Bono (U2 Leadsinger)
Bill Clinton
George W Bush
Pierce Brosnan
Eddie Jordan
Nelson Mandela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_awards_and_honours_bestowed_on_Nelson_Mand ela - considerably more than Manuel)
Tiger Woods
Gary Player
and even the eternally stupid Jacob Zuma

LOL! What on earth did he get a Doctorate in?!

[hj2k_x]

As president Mandela has said, "The primary aims of affirmative action must be to redress the imbalances created by apartheid. We are not . . . asking for hand-outs for anyone nor are we saying that just as a white skin was a passport to privilege in the past, so a black skin should be the basis of privilege in the future. Nor . . . is it our aim to do away with qualifications. What we are against is not the upholding of standards as such but the sustaining of barriers to the attainment of standards; the special measures that we envisage to overcome the legacy of past discrimination are not intended to ensure the advancement of unqualified persons, but to see to it that those who have been denied access to qualifications in the past can become qualified now, and that those who have been qualified all along but overlooked because of past discrimination, are at last given their due. The first point to be made is that affirmative action must be rooted in principles of justice and equality." October 1991

What an amazing man he was. Such wise and enlightened comments.

[BobbyMac]

Received an Honorary Doctorate of Literature from the University of Fort Hare (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Administration from the University of Zululand (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Philosophy from Medical University of Southern Africa (2001)

Bwahahahahahaha. I even think he didn't matriculate.

[hj2k_x]

Received an Honorary Doctorate of Literature from the University of Fort Hare (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Administration from the University of Zululand (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Philosophy from Medical University of Southern Africa (2001)

Bwahahahahahaha. I don't even think he matriculated

Laughable that is.

[Bageloo]

Received an Honorary Doctorate of Literature from the University of Fort Hare (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Administration from the University of Zululand (2001)
Received an Honorary Doctorate of Philosophy from Medical University of Southern Africa (2001)

Bwahahahahahaha. I even think he didn't matriculate.

Eish Bobby, we have already established that these are meant to recognise contributions to society in general not to academia as such.
Irvin Khoza the owner of Orlando Pirates and Chariman of 2010 company was also honoured a while back. I also don't think he had anything to do with institutions of higher learning prior to that. But he played a pivotal role in bringing the world cup to SA.
Zuma also played a vital role in bringing about peace in KwazuluNatal and Burundi. Granted he has made some stupid mistakes but that should not vilify all the good work he has done.

[Bageloo]

What an amazing man he was. Such wise and enlightened comments.
Those words are actually echoed in today's employment equity act. It's just that depending who you asked, you are bound to get different answers as to what affirmative action is...:cool: Some black people tend to think it means entitlement to nice paying jobs. And some white people tend to think it means giving jobs to blacks that are not qualified. Somewhere between those two extremes, is the truth about affirmative action.

[hj2k_x]

Those words are actually echoed in today's employment equity act. It's just that depending who you asked, you are bound to get different answers as to what affirmative action is...:cool: Some black people tend to think it means entitlement to nice paying jobs. And some white people tend to think it means giving jobs to blacks that are not qualified. Somewhere between those two extremes, is the truth about affirmative action.

In principle, I agree with this middle ground. I do not, however, think that this is what is implemented in reality, unfortunately.

[tibby.dude]

So lol wait you saying Trevors not doing a good job, and some white person can do better?:rolleyes:

Yeah people like Dr Owen Horwood and Barend Du Plessis ... they were really good finance ministers unlike Trevor ... in fact we can thank uncle Trevor for his good leadership on finance for giving us those low interest rate BMW convertibles :D.

[BobbyMac]

Yeah people like Dr Owen Horwood and Barend Du Plessis ... they were really good finance ministers unlike Trevor ... in fact we can thank uncle Trevor for his good leadership on finance for giving us those low interest rate BMW convertibles :D.
Yeah cos the bmw convertible is SA's national car.

[tibby.dude]

Yeah cos the bmw convertible is SA's national car.

Looking on the road it is actually is the cheap spec (wif those k@K looking mags) BMW 318 :).

[hj2k_x]

Eish Bobby, we have already established that these are meant to recognise contributions to society in general not to academia as such.
Irvin Khoza the owner of Orlando Pirates and Chariman of 2010 company was also honoured a while back. I also don't think he had anything to do with institutions of higher learning prior to that. But he played a pivotal role in bringing the world cup to SA.
Zuma also played a vital role in bringing about peace in KwazuluNatal and Burundi. Granted he has made some stupid mistakes but that should not vilify all the good work he has done.

This is all true.

However, the original argument was that he is not qualified enough to do the job he is doing, which is the strictest terms remains to be completely true.

[Mpho.com]

in my first year I got 4 distinctions out of 5, and guess what, the bank did not want to give me a student loan???!!!!

I doubt it was because you were white mate, i had 4 HG distinctions in matric and I still couldn't secure a loan.And I'm not white,FYI.

[Syndyre]

I doubt it was because you were white mate, i had 4 HG distinctions in matric and I still couldn't secure a loan.And I'm not white,FYI.

I think its primarily based on income, assets etc.

[dlk001]

I think its primarily based on income, assets etc.

It should be, but its not always the case!!!

[Syndyre]

What is it based on then?

[Skeptik]

Yeah people like Dr Owen Horwood and Barend Du Plessis ... they were really good finance ministers unlike Trevor ... in fact we can thank uncle Trevor for his good leadership on finance for giving us those low interest rate BMW convertibles :D.
Yeah we pay more for our cars than anywhere else in the world.

[hj2k_x]

I think its primarily based on income, assets etc.

It is.

[IamCanadian]

The ANC wants the masses to prosper. That is why AA will remain forever. You just need to get used to it.

[IanC]

The ANC wants the masses to prosper. That is why AA will remain forever. You just need to get used to it.

With the SA population looking as follows:

Black 79.00% (34,908,233)
White 9.60% (4,242,013)
Coloured 8.90% (3,932,700)
Indian/Asian 2.50% (1,104,691)

I think you are correct.

[IamCanadian]

With the SA population looking as follows:

Black 79.00% (34,908,233)
White 9.60% (4,242,013)
Coloured 8.90% (3,932,700)
Indian/Asian 2.50% (1,104,691)

I think you are correct.

The real question is whether or not AA will lead to prosperity for the masses. I am inclined to believe that it won't because it is discriminatory in essence. Even with AA the reality is that there are no African countries that are prospering in spite of $580 billion being thrown their way from the west.

Where the hell did all that money go?

I bet it went into creating commitees to think up ways on how to creat a committee to discuss if a committee is needed to look into the formation of things like AA or on how to take the land back from the evil colonialists. And then some.

Can Africa create prosperous societies?

Just about everywhere you look, evidence abounds around the world that prosporous societies are being created, just not in Africa. For example, Vietnam suffered a war of colonial conquest and it was eventually subdued by France in 1884. For almost a decade, it again fought a devastating independence war until France was vanquished in 1954. And then came the epic battle of 1965 to 1973 with US military and its allies, seeking to squelch the North Vietnamese communists.

When the guns fell silent with the withdrawal of US troops in 1973 and the eventual fall of Saigon in 1975, the Vietnamese toll stood at a horrifying three to four million. Diplomatically isolated, its economy shredded and its population maimed and traumatised on a scale unparalleled in any Black African nation (except DR Congo), Vietnam would seem to have no chance at success.

But just two and a half decades later, Vietnam is storming the world stage as an economic powerhouse. Its exports are flooding western nations; heavy and advanced manufacturing is thriving at a rapid pace. Its GDP, $258 billion, is having an average growth rate of 8%, the second highest in Asia after China. Europe had to put curbs on the country's shoe exports after they nearly sunk much of the continent's manufacturers.

According to a news report in New York Times on October 25, 2006, Vietnam now sells "nine times as much to Americans as it buys from there." Since 1990, a space of 15 short years, Vietnam has pulled off one of the most stunning economic feats: reducing absolute poverty-World Bank standard: subsisting on $1 a day-from 51 to 8% of its population.

[JK8]

With the SA population looking as follows:

Black 79.00% (34,908,233)
White 9.60% (4,242,013)
Coloured 8.90% (3,932,700)
Indian/Asian 2.50% (1,104,691)

I think you are correct.

Errrm only 1 mill indians? and also coupled with all the Chinese?:confused:

[BobbyMac]

Errrm only 1 mill indians? and also coupled with all the Chinese?:confused: Doesn't sound right hey? There's a million in Chatsworth alone.

[hj2k_x]

Are these not the original 1997 figures?

[Skeptik]

Sadly AIDS will take it's toll and those figures will look quite different soon enough.

[hj2k_x]

Sad but true yes.