Cosatu In Capitalism At Its Deadliest

[Johan Beaurain]

Aspen lifts interim profit on new products, Aids drugs. Copied form the Cape Times 26/02/2007

VERNON WESSELS
Johannesburg - Aspen Phar-macare's interim profit rose 15 percent as the company sold more Aids drugs and introduced new products, Africa's biggest maker of generic drugs said yesterday.
Net income in the six months to December climbed to R331.7 million, or 93c a share, from R288.5 million, or 82c a year earlier, Aspen said in a statement to the JSE yesterday
Sales jumped 15 percent to R1.94 billion.
Aspen is the biggest supplier of generic anti-Aids drugs, called antiretrovirals, and other medicines to the government.

You can view the original blog online at: http://www.blogmark.co.za/index.php?q=node/5119

For some obscure reason the Mail&Guardian is no longer allowing us to access this blog. Untill it becomes accessible again, please refer to the following article that is available online at: http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/200608-Beaurain-COSATU.html

[Syndyre]

And this is a problem why?

[ghoti]

Darn, those poor vitamin shares :(

[ghoti]

And this is a problem why?

This is that aids denialist vitamin sponsored dude. Take what he says with a pinch of salt.

[Johan Beaurain]

And this is a problem why?

People die when they are taking highly toxic drugs like ARV's

[Syndyre]

This is that aids denialist vitamin sponsored dude. Take what he says with a pinch of salt.

I know, just trying to see what his response is. ;)

[supersunbird]

People die when they are taking highly toxic drugs like ARV's

As if they dont die from the AIDS...

[Johan Beaurain]

As if they dont die from the AIDS...

Why do they pressurise sick people to take highly toxic substances that will most definitely harm their health?

[ToxicBunny]

Because it will help them live longer and more productive lives than not having them at all....

[Johan Beaurain]

Because it will help them live longer and more productive lives than not having them at all....

I always thought that it is good wholesome food in moderate quantities that will help us to live longer and more productive lives.

Now you are trying to tell us highly toxic "ARV drugs", that is known for terminating the formation of DNA chains in peoples bodies, will help them to live longer and more productive lives.

I am sorry but I just cannot bring myself to believe such nonsense.

You will have to bring me some hard evidence before I can take you serious.

Can you please explain to us how did you come to this conclusion?

[ToxicBunny]

Well I shall point to my gardener who has AIDS, is on ARVs and is living a healthy productive life, which he WASN'T doing before we go him onto ARVs....

Thats how I came to that conclusion...
You on the other hand have to provide me hard evidence for your nonsensical, genocidal denialist claims...

[tibby.dude]

People die when they are taking highly toxic drugs like ARV's

Rather strange that you lot don't talk about Chemotherapy ???.

But then we all know about what causes Aids but cancer is such a big crap shoot that statistically even one of you lot might get it.

[Rikus]

People please, this is an April fools thread from Johan.

[Johan Beaurain]

Rather strange that you lot don't talk about Chemotherapy ???.

But then we all know about what causes Aids but cancer is such a big crap shoot that statistically even one of you lot might get it.

I do speak out against harmful cancer treatments. In fact the cancer scare is not very diffrent to the Aids scare. Both seem to be promoted by the same gang.

ARV drugs like AZT were originally designed for cancer patients, but due to its extreme toxicity it could never be marketed in the developed countries.

I definitely cannot and will not recommend ARV drugs or chemotherapy or radium therapy to anybody else.

[Johan Beaurain]

Well I shall point to my gardener who has AIDS, is on ARVs and is living a healthy productive life, which he WASN'T doing before we go him onto ARVs....

Thats how I came to that conclusion...
You on the other hand have to provide me hard evidence for your nonsensical, genocidal denialist claims...

You are not even a real person. You are a faceless person that changes the name that you write under every now and then when you get the feeling to do so.

The story about your gardener I do not believe. If it is true then you must become a real person first, and tell us your real name and address. You must also provide us with the name and address of the doctor that prescribes the ARV drugs to your gardener.

If your gardener is going to die as a result of a toxic reaction to the "ARV druggs" you and the doctor that got him onto the drugs should be held accountable for your actions in a court of law.

[ToxicBunny]

Why must i do anything of the sort.... My story is not unique, its happening all over the world....

and no i don't change my name when I get the feeling to do so, this has been my "nickname" for neigh on 10years, so get over yourself.

And don't you even START on cancer, I have lost 3 grandparents to cancer and my father has it... so if you want to REALLY raise my hackles.....

[Rikus]

Y
If your gardener is going to die as a result of a toxic reaction to the "ARV druggs" you and the doctor that got him onto the drugs should be held accountable for your actions in a court of law.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ToxicBunny]

Johan : by your mindless logic, I am hereby notifying you that for every person that dies of HIV/AIDS related illnesses I am opening a murder docket at my local police station against you, and I will be contacting the world court in the Hague to investigate the possibility of getting you and all your denialist cronies charged for crimes against humanity and willfully engaging in mass genocide.

[Rikus]

During a voluntary project recently undertaken in this country, 30 out of 32 patients who were ill with AIDS-like symptoms recovered within a few weeks by ridding themselves of parasites using a frequency resonator, improving their diet and using inexpensive, safe and natural herbal remedies. at a cost of R250, Otherwise you can be treated on a Rife machine, QX or Frequency generator and follow up with herbal remedies. People near Cape Town can phone : HOLISTIC FREQUENCY THERAPY Johan Beauraine: 4479727 for machines and treatment.
http://www.naturefresh.co.za/About%20Us/new%20stuff/parasites_and_pathogens.html

He sells a treatment that cures aids!!!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ToxicBunny]

I'll add him to my list... *mutter*

[icyrus]

People die when they are taking highly toxic drugs like ARV's

How many people die of aids in SA? How many of those have gotten arvs? How long has the arv program been running and how long as aids been killing people here?

More bull**** from you...

[icyrus]

http://www.naturefresh.co.za/About%20Us/new%20stuff/parasites_and_pathogens.html

He sells a treatment that cures aids!!!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Of course he does. Everyone knew from the begging the he is a snake-oil salesman.

[ToxicBunny]

Bloody typical.. accuses all of US of having an agenda, meanwhile he's just trying to peddle some snake-oil rubbish.....

Its a pity we can't get them charge for mass genocide in some way...

[Rikus]

It took time but I think I finally exposed him for what he is.

[kilo39]

Bloody typical.. accuses all of US of having an agenda, meanwhile he's just trying to peddle some snake-oil rubbish.....

Its a pity we can't get them charge for mass genocide in some way...These are the same people that are taking TAC to Int. Criminal Court in Hague on exactly that charge.

Genocide charge laid against TAC head (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=2624&art_id=vn20070111130203108C477057)
January 11 2007

A charge of genocide has been laid against Treatment Action Campaign head Zackie Achmat at the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands, for promoting the provision and use of antiretroviral drugs to treat HIV.

This is the latest attack in the long-running battle between the TAC and its arch-rivals who vehemently oppose the use of ARVs.
-
A 59-page criminal complaint has been laid against Achmat by Cape Town advocate Anthony Brink of the Treatment Information Group (TIG).

All via the backdoor of government (I mean, who do we think is really paying for this charge to be brought to trial?)

:mad:

[ToxicBunny]

Personally I hope there is a huge upset for them and the Court decides to reverse the charges and charge Mr Anthony Brink and his denialist cohorts.....

I have watched my gardener turn into a frail waif of a human being before we could get him onto ARVs and now he is healthy and strong again. For me, that is all the proof i need that these denialists will be responsible for the death of many millions if they get their way.

[kilo39]

Personally I hope there is a huge upset for them and the Court decides to reverse the charges and charge Mr Anthony Brink and his denialist cohorts.....

I have watched my gardener turn into a frail waif of a human being before we could get him onto ARVs and now he is healthy and strong again. For me, that is all the proof i need that these denialists will be responsible for the death of many millions if they get their way.Will be?

You mean are "responsible for the death of many millions." They already have their way. Now, cherry, they are charging Achmat. Yes, should be Manto in the dock (well according to Pieter Dirk Uys anyway.)

No laughing matter (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2004-04-05-uys-en.html)
Pieter-Dirk Uys

The national comprehensive strategy is starting to look like a systematic, planned extermination of an entire group of South Africans: those who are poor, unemployed, in prison, on the streets and hopeless. The new apartheid has already established itself. Black and White South Africans with money will live. Those without money will have no access to medicines and drugs. They will die.
-
He flies around the globe in his expensive new aeroplane like Supermouse, trying to solve the problems of the First World, while auditioning for the part of Kofi Annan. He pops into South Africa occasionally on a state visit and shows how much he dislikes us by ignoring us. He confuses us even more with details of an African Renaissance, an African Union and a New Partnerrship for Africa's Development, diverting the attention away from the battlefields of fear.
-
And so here we are in the minefield of fear, denial, death and horror. Too frightened to confront the reality of the virus and too polite to tread where racists aim to go. White criticism of a black government can too easily be seen as racist. Criticism of bad governance must try to rise above petty ethnic bitchery. It is not a crime to point out carelessness. It is a crime to censor the anger and let it slide. It has been said: A patriot is someone who protects his country from its government.

So, as we say in one of our 11 official languages: Vuk'uzinzele!
Stand up and do something!

Except this government wants people to lie down and die. 10 years too late (with their latest aids plan. Must be 2010.)

[ToxicBunny]

Well yeah, i do agree with you... I was just trying to be ummm I spose tactful in a way about it...

[kilo39]

Why be tactful? People are dying and getting infected daily. But no, they're taking Achmat to ICC.

Could we say: DIABOLICAL

[ToxicBunny]

For the first time in a long while, I'm actually in a good mood, and didn't feel like starting toooo much of a fight..... although Mr snake-oil over there almost got me going with his little jibe at cancer......

[kilo39]

For the first time in a long while, I'm actually in a good mood, and didn't feel like starting toooo much of a fight..... although Mr snake-oil over there almost got me going with his little jibe at cancer......Me always ready to fight (especially first thing in the morning!) :D

[edc]

ARV drugs have proven to help people live longer. Dying from toxic drugs is just as painful and scary as dying from TB. Taking any form of medicine has side effects, eating too much biltong makes me very thirsty but I still eat too much of it. ARV or TB, is a choice people have to make for themselves. Some made the choice to have unprotected sex, which is why they are capable of choosing drugs or a faster death.

Anyway, the issue at hand is, people ask money for a live saving treatment. People asked me R22 for the biltong I wanted yesterday, if the drug company did not make a profit they would instead go in to the biltong business, which ever is more profitable.

If you don't like how capitalism works take a hard look at your own life, where do you work, for how much pay do you work, what do you buy, what freedoms do you enjoy.

If you want to, go to Cuba, stop bashing capitalism as if it is some sort of evil. No other system works.

[RVFmal]

These are the same people that are taking TAC to Int. Criminal Court in Hague on exactly that charge.

Genocide charge laid against TAC head (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=2624&art_id=vn20070111130203108C477057)
January 11 2007

A charge of genocide has been laid against Treatment Action Campaign head Zackie Achmat at the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Netherlands, for promoting the provision and use of antiretroviral drugs to treat HIV.

This is the latest attack in the long-running battle between the TAC and its arch-rivals who vehemently oppose the use of ARVs.
-
A 59-page criminal complaint has been laid against Achmat by Cape Town advocate Anthony Brink of the Treatment Information Group (TIG).

All via the backdoor of government (I mean, who do we think is really paying for this charge to be brought to trial?)

:mad:

The response from Achmat and the TAC is to counter-charge those who have charged him.

We will forever have people of differing opinions and when it comes to the health and welfare of a human life it can bring the best and the worst out of them.

In this case it all depends on which side of the fence you are standing. Should either of the two sides be found wanting in their findings and facts put forward, they should be brought up on charges of gross violations of humans rights and genocide.

I for one do not believe that by ignoring ARV's and only attempting to eat healthy foodstuffs is the way to go, but feel that the only way to successfully lead a longer and healthier life would be a combination of the two.

And the people who are advocating this are the TAC. Taking any form of manmade medication has it's contra-indications which are clearly stated, from head-ache tablets to chemo-therapy.

At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to decide which is more important and beneficial to them. To however be mislead by people with agenda's that are clouded is inexcusable and those people should be brought to account.

[Johan Beaurain]

How many people die of aids in SA? How many of those have gotten arvs? How long has the arv program been running and how long as aids been killing people here?

More bull**** from you...

Icarys I thank you for raising this issue. It is really very nice that you are prepared to debate these issues with us. You asked: “How many people die of aids in SA?”

I think most of us are probably dying of AIDS here in SA. In fact all over the world most people are probably dying from AIDS. I think that AIDS is coming up for us at that stage in our life when we become tired to fight the conditions that we are faced with in life. We die of AIDS at that stage in our life when our batteries are running out on us. We can try to charge our batteries every now and then as we are growing older and wiser, but I am convinced that eventually AIDS will catch up with us, and then we will die. AIDS is when our health can no longer neutralize the onslaughts against our health. The word AIDS stands for: Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome. It means that our immune response has acquired a deficiency and it can no longer do its job properly.

You asked how many of those who died of AIDS has gotten ARV’S. I think very few of them because at first it was not really easy to distribute these dangerous and highly toxic substances that you call “ANTI-RETROVIRAL DRUGS” as if they are sweets.

You asked how long has the ARV program being running and how long has AIDS being killing people here (here in South Africa I suppose you meant). The ARV program has only started running since powerful corporations became powerful enough to persuade powerful worker leaders in COSATU to pretend to their members that they are buying into this bag of HIV/Aids garbage. COSATU are now pressurising the ANC-government to use the workers tax money to buy these “ANTI- RETRIVIRAL DRUGS” that the COSATU companies are manufacturing.

And how many individuals do you think will get rich out of this HIV/AIDS scam that is now killing our people even faster than before?

http://aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/index.html

[Johan Beaurain]

ARV drugs have proven to help people live longer. Dying from toxic drugs is just as painful and scary as dying from TB. Taking any form of medicine has side effects, eating too much biltong makes me very thirsty but I still eat too much of it. ARV or TB, is a choice people have to make for themselves. Some made the choice to have unprotected sex, which is why they are capable of choosing drugs or a faster death.

Anyway, the issue at hand is, people ask money for a live saving treatment. People asked me R22 for the biltong I wanted yesterday, if the drug company did not make a profit they would instead go in to the biltong business, which ever is more profitable.

If you don't like how capitalism works take a hard look at your own life, where do you work, for how much pay do you work, what do you buy, what freedoms do you enjoy.

If you want to, go to Cuba, stop bashing capitalism as if it is some sort of evil. No other system works.

The bosses are attacking me because I criticised you about selling the workers out with your outspoken support to the HIV/AIDS scam.

[Rikus]

Johan, please read here.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost...8&postcount=19

You have zero credibility left after that.

[Johan Beaurain]

[QUOTE=kilo39;961317] [I]No laughing matter (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2004-04-05-uys-en.html) Pieter-Dirk Uys - "A patriot is someone who protects his country from its government." QUOTE]

Sorry Pieter-Dirk Uys but I cannot agree with this statement that you made. I think a patriot is someone who protects the people against the clowns and those who claim to be worker leaders.

It is becoming very clear to me that it is too difficult for some of those implicated in this HIV/Aids scam to admit that they are actually knee-deep into some very filthy stuff.
http://www.blogmark.co.za/index.php?q=node/6718

[ghoti]

Are you still here Johan? Damn quacks.

[Skeptik]

Johan,
You sound like my Aunt, who believes the pyramids were build by aliens and that she cannot pick the same lottery numbers "because they have come up before".

If you want us to debate, you're going to have to say something more convincing.

[kilo39]

Sorry Pieter-Dirk Uys but I cannot agree with this statement that you made. I think a patriot is someone who protects the people against the clowns and those who claim to be worker leaders.Ja, pity it is Pieter-Dirk giving the school lectures, pity it is Pieter-Dirk touring the country? How many school lectures have I heard from Manto. Um, none. Par for the course. But no, he is not the patriot.

[icyrus]

It is becoming very clear to me that it is too difficult for some of those implicated in this HIV/Aids scam to admit that they are actually knee-deep into some very filthy stuff.

Funny you should say that because I think that describes you quite well...

[Johan Beaurain]

The response from Achmat and the TAC is to counter-charge those who have charged him.

We will forever have people of differing opinions and when it comes to the health and welfare of a human life it can bring the best and the worst out of them.

In this case it all depends on which side of the fence you are standing. Should either of the two sides be found wanting in their findings and facts put forward, they should be brought up on charges of gross violations of humans rights and genocide.

I for one do not believe that by ignoring ARV's and only attempting to eat healthy foodstuffs is the way to go, but feel that the only way to successfully lead a longer and healthier life would be a combination of the two.

And the people who are advocating this are the TAC. Taking any form of manmade medication has it's contra-indications which are clearly stated, from head-ache tablets to chemo-therapy.

At the end of the day, it is up to the individual to decide which is more important and beneficial to them. To however be mislead by people with agenda's that are clouded is inexcusable and those people should be brought to account.

There is a short video available that talks about: “How the Government is Threatening Your Freedom to Use Supplements.

The FDA protects corporate interests, not consumers. The agency pretends they are on the side of free trade, but nothing could be further from the truth.

Instead, they are on the side of regulations and special interests, all for the protection of certain multi-national corporations.

That's the message behind this short video you must watch, We Become Silent: The Last Days of Health Freedom.”

http://www.mercola.com/2007/mar/15/how-the-government-is-threatening-your-freedom-to-use-supplements.htm

[ToxicBunny]

and the FDA has what to do with this country?

please go peddle your snake-oil somewhere else Johan, nobody is buying it....

[Johan Beaurain]

and the FDA has what to do with this country?

please go peddle your snake-oil somewhere else Johan, nobody is buying it....

There is no such thing as "skids-marks-disease"

http://www.mercola.com/townofallopath/index.htm

[ToxicBunny]

thats not answering my question Johan, stop dodging. What do the FDA have to do with this country?

[edc]

The bosses are attacking me because I criticised you about selling the workers out with your outspoken support to the HIV/AIDS scam.

Why do you take real antibiotics rather than eating moldy bread?

Why do you take painkillers or any form of medicine? You do because if it works, a company makes more money selling something which is proven to work than something which does not work.

How can you be so arrogant to believe that, in your *medical*opinion*, that scientist who have tested ARV drugs are wrong? You are not qualified to make any conclusion, your only alternative is to believe the people who are qualified.

I hate hippies.

[zeridine]

The FDA protects corporate interests, not consumers. The agency pretends they are on the side of free trade, but nothing could be further from the truth.


Aag flippin please!? the FDA has some of the highest standards in the world to conform to when you want to launch new meds. I suggest before you brainfart all over the place about ARVs and Chemo, you go read up on the FDA, clinical trials, GCP and the sorts. :mad:
maybe those with HIV should just eat healthy and try to be happy - cause we all know that will cure or at least delay HIV giving one AIDS.:rolleyes:
(what about those who ate healthy before getting HIV?)

[Johan Beaurain]

Why do you take real antibiotics rather than eating moldy bread?

Why do you take painkillers or any form of medicine? You do because if it works, a company makes more money selling something which is proven to work than something which does not work.

How can you be so arrogant to believe that, in your *medical*opinion*, that scientist who have tested ARV drugs are wrong? You are not qualified to make any conclusion, your only alternative is to believe the people who are qualified.

I hate hippies.

edc: Why do you take real antibiotics rather than eating moldy bread?

Johan Beaurain: I avoid antibiotics like the plague. Anti means against and biotic means life. Antibiotics is something that kills the life inside our bodies. I am also trying to avoid eating moldy bread.

edc: Why do you take painkillers or any form of medicine?

Johan Beaurain: I am most reluctant to take painkillers or any form of pharmaceutical medicine. Pain is only a signal to us that something is wrong inside our body. I think it is most important to find and remove the cause of pain rather than to use a drug that just temporarily remove the pain signals.

edc: You do because if it works, a company makes more money selling something which is proven to work than something which does not work.

Johan Beaurain: No you are wrong about this. I usually do not use antibiotics or painkillers but many other people do use these drugs. The companies who sell these drugs make money out of the people buying these drugs not because these drugs works, but because they have succeeded to create a perception amongst the people that these drugs work.

edc: How can you be so arrogant to believe that, in your *medical*opinion*, that scientist who have tested ARV drugs are wrong?

Johan Beaurain: It is not only me who decided that ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS are harmful. Scientists themselves also came to that conclusion. Not those scientists that live in fear of the powers of BIG PHARMA. But those scientists who were brave enough to ignore the threats and the discrimination and to continue to look for the truth. These scientists had the guts to challenge the powers of BIG PHARMA. I agree with these brave scientists because I have tested these drugs with my own experiments, and I came to the same conclusions.

edc: You are not qualified to make any conclusion, your only alternative is to believe the people who are qualified.

Johan Beaurain: Who decides who is qualified? Is it the pharmaceutical companies that finance the universities who produce the “scientists” that must decide what is good for you? Are you saying that the manufacturers of the “ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS” must decide who is qualified to come to a conclusion on what is good for you?

Benjamin Rush, M.D., signer of the Declaration of Independence and Leading Allopath During the Founding of America said:
“The Constitution of this republic should make special provisions for medical freedom as well as religious freedom. To restrict the art of healing to one class of man and deny equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic.”

Johan Beaurain: We are at a different stage of our history in South Africa. Ironically enough we must still walk the path that Americans have walked. But I suspect the balance of powers has also changed. I suspect that during the founding of America (1776 if I am correct) Natural Medicine was still the dominant force in that country as well as the rest of the world. I suspect that it was only during the last hundred years that Allopathic medicine has gained the powerful position it is occupying today. Did allopathic medicine gain this dominance due to its scientific prowess or is it due to its commercial prowess?

[ToxicBunny]

You're still not answering my question Johan.

What do the FDA have to do with this country?

[ghoti]

I hate hippies.

Dont insult hippies like that. They are not as backwater in understanding as Johan. He is simply trying to flog factory produced "natural" vitamin solution to anyone gullible enough to take them to cure AIDS. The motive here is really money and greed and not compassion and understanding.

[edc]

I avoid antibiotics like the plague. Anti means against and biotic means life. Antibiotics is something that kills the life inside our bodies. I am also trying to avoid eating moldy bread.

Please get a lung infection. I sincerely hope you die in peace without me or anyone else pointing at you and laughing. I'm not the sincere type, someone will point at you and laugh.

Johan Beaurain: I am most reluctant to take painkillers or any form of pharmaceutical medicine. Pain is only a signal to us that something is wrong inside our body. I think it is most important to find and remove the cause of pain rather than to use a drug that just temporarily remove the pain signals.

So you take antibiotics, when it suits you, you also take painkillers. You trust the same company who manufactures the AIDS drugs you are criticizing when it suits you.

edc: You do because if it works, a company makes more money selling something which is proven to work than something which does not work.

Johan Beaurain: No you are wrong about this. I usually do not use antibiotics or painkillers but many other people do use these drugs. The companies who sell these drugs make money out of the people buying these drugs not because these drugs works, but because they have succeeded to create a perception amongst the people that these drugs work.

The perception is a fact, most people with sound reasonable judgment, who have been sick trust in medicine. Look at Africa where people do not have drugs, they die early deaths. If you look at countries with great medical care, the people live unnaturally long lives. BECAUSE DRUGS WORK!

edc: How can you be so arrogant to believe that, in your *medical*opinion*, that scientist who have tested ARV drugs are wrong?

Johan Beaurain: It is not only me who decided that ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS are harmful. Scientists themselves also came to that conclusion. Not those scientists that live in fear of the powers of BIG PHARMA. But those scientists who were brave enough to ignore the threats and the discrimination and to continue to look for the truth. These scientists had the guts to challenge the powers of BIG PHARMA. I agree with these brave scientists because I have tested these drugs with my own experiments, and I came to the same conclusions.

You will always get scientist who don't have a solid grasp for interpreting and understanding statistics correctly.

edc: You are not qualified to make any conclusion, your only alternative is to believe the people who are qualified.

Johan Beaurain: Who decides who is qualified? Is it the pharmaceutical companies that finance the universities who produce the “scientists” that must decide what is good for you?

YES. I trust smart educated professionals.

Are you saying that the manufacturers of the “ANTIRETROVIRAL DRUGS” must decide who is qualified to come to a conclusion on what is good for you?

YES. They have saved many lives with their continued dedication to save lives and cure diseases. How many lives have you saved? They have saved in the billions of lives.

Benjamin Rush, M.D., signer of the Declaration of Independence and Leading Allopath During the Founding of America said:

He said that he was a hippie also. So we can not trust him.

“The Constitution of this republic should make special provisions for medical freedom as well as religious freedom. To restrict the art of healing to one class of man and deny equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic.”

Johan Beaurain: We are at a different stage of our history in South Africa. Ironically enough we must still walk the path that Americans have walked. But I suspect the balance of powers has also changed. I suspect that during the founding of America (1776 if I am correct) Natural Medicine was still the dominant force in that country as well as the rest of the world. I suspect that it was only during the last hundred years that Allopathic medicine has gained the powerful position it is occupying today. Did allopathic medicine gain this dominance due to its scientific prowess or is it due to its commercial prowess?[/QUOTE]

blah blah blah. He is a hippie. I said that already. I do not know why you thought it a good idea to use an artist as a credible expert in a scientific debate. It does show me that you are the hippie type who will believe a professional singer over a real scientist who understands statistics.

[edc]

Did allopathic medicine gain this dominance due to its scientific prowess or is it due to its commercial prowess?

People pay good money, over a long period of time, if it works well. Which is why herbalist tend not to have a pension fund so they can leech off society even more when they are old.

It is not merely a fashionable phase like people who prefer herbal medicine for a few weeks till they find out they are being suckered out of their money.

The reason people fall for so called herbal remedies, which are unsafe, untested and not regulated properly, is because the patients receive personal attention, and they require tremendous amounts of attention before you can convince them of the evil companies, unless they are hippies also. These scoundrels profit from the misfortune of others, they prey on people who do not know better.

[Johan Beaurain]

More people die when they don't.

Bobbymac you should know that what you are saying there is not true. It cannot take you that long to understand that posions kill people. Countless research experiments came to the conclusion that highly toxic-antiretroviral drugs are harmfull to the health of those that takes them. It is documented and I can show you again if you want to see these papers.

COSATU should not be trying to make money out of killing the unsuspecting workers. Some of these people that are now taking these toxic drugs do not yet realise that the whole HIV/AIDS theory is just one big scam to make money.

It is not nice to do this to other people.

http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/

[ToxicBunny]

Johan : How many times are we going to tell you this before you actually get it... We KNOW ARV's are toxic, but they do good... A lot of us have personal examples of the good they do, whereas you spout your denialist snake-oil horseradish herbal remedies, we aren't going to buy your products, or endorse them.

Personally I think you are akin to a mass-murderer with your denialist rubbish, but of course thats just a personal opinion.

[Rikus]

COSATU should not be trying to make money out of killing the unsuspecting workers. Some of these people that are now taking these toxic drugs do not yet realise that the whole HIV/AIDS theory is just one big scam to make money.

It is not nice to do this to other people.


Like what you are doing Johan?


During a voluntary project recently undertaken in this country, 30 out of 32 patients who were ill with AIDS-like symptoms recovered within a few weeks by ridding themselves of parasites using a frequency resonator, improving their diet and using inexpensive, safe and natural herbal remedies. at a cost of R250, Otherwise you can be treated on a Rife machine, QX or Frequency generator and follow up with herbal remedies. People near Cape Town can phone : HOLISTIC FREQUENCY THERAPY Johan Beauraine: 4479727 for machines and treatment.

From
http://www.naturefresh.co.za/About%20Us/new%20stuff/parasites_and_pathogens.html

[ToxicBunny]

He's just irritated that the big medicine companies are making more money than him, and actually doing some good when his snake-oil is just a con to make him money...

[icyrus]

the whole HIV/AIDS theory is just one big scam to make money.

Out of all the people here, you seem to be the only one making money out of aids patients.

[zeridine]

It cannot take you that long to understand that posions kill people. Countless research experiments came to the conclusion that highly toxic-antiretroviral drugs are harmfull to the health of those that takes them. It is documented and I can show you again if you want to see these papers

i would like to see you produce these fictional studies. I would like to know the size of patient population that these studies entail. I would also like to see the p-values and statistical relevance of these unbiased randomised controlled trials. i would like to see the total inclusion and exclusion criteria and all the conmeds not used.
any flipping poepol can go and put tea leaves in a capsule and sell it to the public claiming it will help 10million different ailments. the MCC in SA seems to be a bit lax in that way, when compared to the FDA, whom you like to slag off so vehemently.
know what? i'd rather not waste my time on a hypocrite like you. type and distribute all the BS propaganda you like.

[Johan Beaurain]

Rikus you pasted the folowing quote of what Sue Visser said about me some years ago. Your quote is a complete distortion of her words at the time.

"During a voluntary project recently undertaken in this country, 30 out of 32 patients who were ill with AIDS-like symptoms recovered within a few weeks by ridding themselves of parasites using a frequency resonator, improving their diet and using inexpensive, safe and natural herbal remedies. at a cost of R250, Otherwise you can be treated on a Rife machine, QX or Frequency generator and follow up with herbal remedies. People near Cape Town can phone : HOLISTIC FREQUENCY THERAPY Johan Beauraine: 4479727 for machines and treatment.

From
http://www.naturefresh.co.za/About%2...pathogens.html"

Rikus Sue's original words were totally different from the way you quoted her above. Rikus you deliberately changed Sue's words in relation to the R250.00 (the cost of a book) she mentioned. Her original words were:

“During a voluntary project recently undertaken in this country, 30 out of 32 patients who were ill with AIDS-like symptoms recovered within a few weeks by ridding themselves of parasites using a frequency resonator, improving their diet and using inexpensive, safe and natural herbal remedies. It is best to get as much information and encouragement as you can from people who have cured themselves of diseases similar to yours. In the book: The Cure For All Diseases by Hulda Regehr Clark, at a cost of R250, there are many suggestions and case histories to follow and you can even build your own inexpensive frequency "zapper" to get rid of a number of microbial diseases. Standard little zappers or the new anti-HIV model: 033 342 4917 . Otherwise you can be treated on a Rife machine, QX or Frequency generator and follow up with herbal remedies. People near Cape Town can phone : HOLISTIC FREQUENCY THERAPY Johan Beauraine: 4479727 for machines and treatment.”
– Sue Visser at: http://www.naturefresh.co.za/About%2...pathogens.html

[ToxicBunny]

It doesn't change anything Johan, you're still peddling your denialist snake-oil therapies for money, so you're still a mass-murderer and a hypocrite... not entirely sure which is worse in this case.

[Johan Beaurain]

Johan : How many times are we going to tell you this before you actually get it... We KNOW ARV's are toxic, but they do good...

ToxicBunny you cannot just make claims that highly toxic "anti-retroviral drugs" are doing good whilst all the scientific evidence shows us that these drugs are harmfull to the health of people.

If you are making claims about highly toxic antiretroviral drugs being good for people, you need to provide us with the evidence. Your gardener whom you are poisoning to death on a slow poison is not proof that the drugs do good. We need to see proper scientific studies that confirms your claims.

Or why don't you rather just admitt that you are working for these people whom are pushing this HIV/Aids scam. You are probably one of the running dogs of these people whom are pushing the harmfull drugs onto unsuspecting people incorrectly diagnosed with a "killer virus" of which the existense cannot be proven.

[ToxicBunny]

Where is all your scientific evidence?

Oh but he is, because he would have been dead nealy a year ago... now he's healthy again.....

I am not the one trying to peddle some bullshyte cure to AIDS... I am just a concerned citizen who will not accept your snake-oil denialist rubbish, and hope that your denial propoganda doesn't reach the masses.

[icyrus]

Johan, no more dodging. Answer this with a yes or a no: are you making money selling aids treatments?

[Johan Beaurain]

Johan, no more dodging. Answer this with a yes or a no: are you making money selling aids treatments?

Icarys you can sometimes look at things with a narrow view on this world.

What is wrong with it if a health practitioner gets remunerated for his/her help and advice to others. If someone else is in need of a service surely he/she should be prepared to pay for it.

The problem is that not everybody has got the money to pay for health services. And the only service that the state offers them is to be fooled into believing that an imaginary virus causes AIDS. And that they should now prepare themselves to take a highly toxic anti-retroviral that was proven to be harmfull to their health. And that they should consume these poisonous medicine untill they die.

The truth Icarys is that I am not selling aids treatments. And all the time and effort that I invest into trying to persuade you to become a better rounded person is entirely voluntary and free of charge.

[ToxicBunny]

Then let me rephrase icyrus' question.

Are you selling any kind of natural remedy that is supposedly able to cure all sorts of ailments?

[Johan Beaurain]

Then let me rephrase icyrus' question.

Are you selling any kind of natural remedy that is supposedly able to cure all sorts of ailments?

What is a natural remedy?

[kilo39]

Spare us the endless repeats of gutter language Rikus. Itself shows a cretin.

//notes deleted posts. You must be an idiot Rikus if you think this software does not keep a record.

[Johan Beaurain]

A Pale Male in SA:
http://photo-forum.net/res/8izlojba/madman.jpg


Shame the poor man is probably incarcerated in jail. Is the poor man suffering from HIV/AIDS? And what is he dragging behind him with that chain? Is it not the bargage bag filled with HIV/AIDS lies that they are making him drag around in jail?

[Rikus]

Shame the poor man is probably incarcerated in jail. Is the poor man suffering from HIV/AIDS? And what is he dragging behind him with that chain? Is it not bargage bag filled with HIV/AIDS that they are making him drag around in jail?
What is HIV/AIDS?

[Johan Beaurain]

What is HIV/AIDS?

I think it is something like bargage or garbage. But it definitely comprises out of a lot of lies.

[ToxicBunny]

Well this will probably pop your little bubble somewhat....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6528885.stm

[Johan Beaurain]

Well this will probably pop your little bubble somewhat....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6528885.stm

To jail people for having sex after testing positive to HIV is not a very kind thing to do to people. All people should be entitled to make love without having to live in a state of fear. Also those people whom were incorrectly diagnosed with a virus of which the existense cannot be proven.

[Debbie]

Deleted posts. 'Nuff said.

Don't worry bout him kilo39. I owned him in a thread last week, someone came along and told him he was owned, then he picked up the saying and is now using every opportunity to tell people that he's 'owned' them, even if he hasn't.

[Rikus]

Keep on building your record we're all watching (or those who still choose to stick around.)

Gutter language is exactly that.



Qualifies as a personal attack of the worst form (so yes it will be reported.) Simple really. But beyond your comprehension.
I did attack you.
I admit it.
You knew what you would get.
Why piss on every post I make.
Even when not addressing you even.
Here:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=970652#post970652

And here:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=970672#post970672

And I must just lie down?
:confused: :confused:

[Rikus]

Don't worry bout him kilo39. I owned him in a thread last week, someone came along and told him he was owned, then he picked up the saying and is now using every opportunity to tell people that he's 'owned' them, even if he hasn't.

I expected more from you.
:o :o :o

[Debbie]

I expected more from you.
:o :o :o

I try to avoid swearing and name-calling. Sorry to disappoint. :D

[ToxicBunny]

Johan : oh so now its unfair to imprison a person because they've condemned ppl to death by passing on a deadly virus....

I am so glad our guavamint is slowly moving away from your denialist attitudes and joining the rest of the world in trying to DO something about HIV/AIDS instead of just denying its existence... at least we may save a few million people.

[Rikus]

I try to avoid swearing and name-calling. Sorry to disappoint. :D
I meant the taking of sides.
:o :o

[Debbie]

I meant the taking of sides.
:o :o

My gran has a saying- "The first to resort to violence admits defeat". You were first to resort to verbal violence.

[Skeptik]

Ag man, Johan is a D00S.
Tired of him.
I thought personal attacks were verboten (translation for Pottie = forbidden)? Oh, I forgot, this isn't the Vodacom forum :D


Don't worry bout him kilo39. I owned him in a thread last week, someone came along and told him he was owned, then he picked up the saying and is now using every opportunity to tell people that he's 'owned' them, even if he hasn't.
I bags him first.;) He's toast.

[Debbie]

Listen, troll, haven't you some washing or dishes to do?

Hehe, yeah I do. Aidios! :p

[Rikus]

I thought personal attacks were verboten (translation for Pottie = forbidden)? Oh, I forgot, this isn't the Vodacom forum :D


I bags him first.;) He's toast.
Now I am really confused.
Did you not put me on your ignore list, Septik?
:confused: :confused:

[Rikus]

Hehe, yeah I do. Aidios! :p
:D ;)

[BTTB]

My gran has a saying- "The first to resort to violence admits defeat".

Your gran is wise.
I must remember this one in future as in real life, people and countries who resort to violence have an inability to debate and more than likely are forcing their view point by using physical force in the way of an army/invading force and violent behaviour in the case on an individual.
Verbal abuse could be construed in the same manner albeit it not physical.

[love56k]

lol.. this has been an entertaining read... 2 opposing *poephols trying to outdo each other.. and both get owned :D

* such a nice word, thanks zeridine ;)

[Johan Beaurain]

Johan : oh so now its unfair to imprison a person because they've condemned ppl to death by passing on a deadly virus....

I am so glad our guavamint is slowly moving away from your denialist attitudes and joining the rest of the world in trying to DO something about HIV/AIDS instead of just denying its existence... at least we may save a few million people.

ToxicBunny you must try and brake out of your confusion on this issue. It is not my government, it is our government. And if we cannot control our elected representatives in our government they will do with us as they like.

You can only deny something if that something exist. If I do not have a child I cannot deny my child a piece of bread. I must first make love to a woman. Then I must impregnate the woman. And then she must bore a child. And it is only once I manage to prove to the whole world that here is my child of flesh and blood standing here in front of me, yes it is only then that we can deny our child a piece of bread, or a place to stay.

If you are saying that I am having a denialist attitude towards those poor people whom were fooled into believing that they are suffereing from a "killer disease" then I will not agree with you. I grant them every right to choose their own mode of treatment for whatever disease/s that they believe that they suffer from. But that does not mean that I must also ignore them and refuse to engage with those whom were incorrectly diagnosed as HIV - positive. And without a valid test that can confirm the presence of HIV in their body, all people were actually incorrectly diagnosed with HIV.

They might have something in their body that they think is HIV, but without a valid test confirming the presence of HIV it is very silly of them to believe in all these wonderfull skills ascribed to this imaginary virus called HIV. You must proof the existense of HIV to me before you start talking to me about how this imaginary virus turns people into skeletons. It is the hardships of life that is turning people into skeletons not the presence of a "HIV-gogga" that you imagine to be lurking around in their body.

I do not get the impression that the government is prepared to deny the fact that many people think that they suffer from a killer disease called HIV/AIDS. I think that the government are much to sympathic with these people that believe that they suffer from HIV/AIDS. Even the opposition parties are engulfed in this lie.

I am getting the impression that many of the people in parliament pretend to believe in the existense of this imaginary HIV. But none of these people in parliament were prepared to engage with me on these issues. They refused to answer any questions about that when I requested them to raise the issue in parliament. They even refused to ask the questions that I asked them to ask in parliament. They said that they do not know me and that they have never met with me.

My correspondence with them is available at.

http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/

The parliamentarians are probably too scared to debate these issues in parliament.

"The parliamentarians are not golden they are yellow."

[ToxicBunny]

Oh.. please...

Actually ffs.... you are going on my ignore list. I have had enough of your rubbish, and I hope you can sleep at night knowing that your denialist rantings are causing the deaths of many many people who begin to entertain the rubbish that you spew forth.

I hope when all is said and done in the end, that society will judge you and your kind appropriately, and you will be blamed for the millions of deaths that HIV/AIDS has caused.

Goodbye.

[Skeptik]

Now I am really confused.
Did you not put me on your ignore list, Septik?
:confused: :confused:
I thought I had, at least I was hoping it would until your medication took effect. Maybe you name change undid it eh Pottie.:D
==

Back to the subject:

Isn't it amazing that whenever someone denies AIDS and anti-retorvirals, they always have a 'cure' of their own which they are trying to peddle.

[Johan Beaurain]

Isn't it amazing that whenever someone denies AIDS and anti-retorvirals, they always have a 'cure' of their own which they are trying to peddle.

You are distorting issues to try and sabotage your own bankruptcy of mind when it comes to defending the theory that an imaginary virus called HIV is the cause of AIDS. How many times must I tell you that AIDS are caused by the hardships of life. Taking highly toxic ARV drugs will add to the hardships of life. It will kill you quicker.

You are clearly one of these people whom are unable to brake away from the idea that you must take highly toxic ARV drugs for this "killer disease". You are proabably telling people; You should take these ARV drugs untill you die? You simply refuse to acknowledge that you were conned by the system.

For me your predicament is indicative of the type of slavery that the workings of your mind were conditioned to. This conditioning probably happened as a result of your exposure to the system of slavery. Angelo wrote something about the new forms of slavery somewhere else on this forum.

[ghoti]

You are distorting issues to try and sabotage your own babkruptcy of mind when it comes to defending the theory that an imaginary virus called HIV is the cause of AIDS. How many times must I tell you that AIDS are caused by the hardships of life. Taking highly toxic ARV drugs will add to the hardships of life. it will kill you quicker.

You are clearly one of these people whom are unable to brake away from the idea that you must take highly toxic ARV drugs for this "killer disease" untill you die. You simply refuse to acknowledge that you were conned by the system.

For me your predicament is indicative of the type of slavery that the workings of your mind were conditioned to by the system of slavery. Angelo wrote something about the new forms of slavery somewhere else on this forum.

Do you know how dangerous chemotherapy is? Sis Johan.. did you matriculate?

[Johan Beaurain]

You are distorting issues to try and sabotage your own bankruptcy of mind when it comes to defending the theory that an imaginary virus called HIV is the cause of AIDS. How many times must I tell you that AIDS are caused by the hardships of life. Taking highly toxic ARV drugs will add to the hardships of life. It will kill you quicker.

You are clearly one of these people whom are unable to brake away from the idea that you must take highly toxic ARV drugs for this "killer disease". You are proabably telling people; You should take these ARV drugs untill you die? You simply refuse to acknowledge that you were conned by the system.

For me your predicament is indicative of the type of slavery that the workings of your mind were conditioned to. This conditioning probably happened as a result of your exposure to the system of slavery. Angelo wrote something about the new forms of slavery somewhere else on this forum.

Angelo wrote more about slavery at this forum:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=71540

[Skeptik]

Johan, if you really think that HIV and AIDS is caused "by the hardships of life", I challenge you to have an injection of compatible blood from an HIV + person.

[edc]

So, if it is only the hardships of life, then the rich and famous, Freddy Mercury comes to mind, should not get HIV.

You are proposing the idea that this disease only infects the poor? I'm not going to post on this article anymore. I've tried to save a fool from himself.

[Johan Beaurain]

So, if it is only the hardships of life, then the rich and famous, Freddy Mercury comes to mind, should not get HIV.

You are proposing the idea that this disease only infects the poor? I'm not going to post on this article anymore. I've tried to save a fool from himself.

Ok edc you are a person that claims to understand economics. And you also proudly announced to us that you were priveleged in getting us to pay for your university education there in Potchefstroom. So maybe it is time for you to demonstrate to us how much you appreciate the fact that we subsidised your education.

Please explain to us what is your opinion about the information supplied in the following article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/world/29condoms.html?ex=1176350400&en=1838a5c2b2efff3b&ei=5070

[McSack]

Ok edc you are a preson that claims to understand economics. And you also proudly announced to us that you were priveleged in getting us to pay for your university education there in Potchefstroom. So maybe it is time for you to demonstrate to us how much you appreciate the fact that we subsidised your education.

Please explain to us what is your opinion about the information supplied in the following article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/world/29condoms.html?ex=1176350400&en=1838a5c2b2efff3b&ei=5070


Johan you chop. That article has about as much bearing on prevention / living with aids as our own governments policies on the protection of the SA rag trade

(Unless of course you were aluding to the condom angle here, in which case everyone knows that asian condoms are just too small - OK so maybe you didn't)

[edc]

http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm


Ok edc you are a preson that claims to understand economics. And you also proudly announced to us that you were priveleged in getting us to pay for your university education there in Potchefstroom. So maybe it is time for you to demonstrate to us how much you appreciate the fact that we subsidised your education.

Please explain to us what is your opinion about the information supplied in the following article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/world/29condoms.html?ex=1176350400&en=1838a5c2b2efff3b&ei=5070

I'm paying for my own education, thanks to student loans. The Varsity is subsidized, but so is the rest of the infrastructure in RSA. When I started to work during the holidays I had 3 people working under my direction. That is 3 jobs, thanks to my deeper understanding of economics I know that my contribution to the economy as a professional far outweighs the subsidy I effectively received.

I read the article. It is my opinion that you can read any script with the words HIV in it and see two things. That HIV does not exist, in the face of scientific evidence, even electron microscope pictures which you have tried to ignore. That people are using the HIV epidemic to exploit the masses.

http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm

I have emailed your boss, even if he agrees with you, he is aware of the opinion I hold of you. I have asked you many direct questions and you answer me, only with more foolishness.

The only way you can prove your argument is to answer my questions which have shot holes through your standpoint. It is my opinion that you are deranged.

[Johan Beaurain]

http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm



I'm paying for my own education, thanks to student loans. The Varsity is subsidized, but so is the rest of the infrastructure in RSA. When I started to work during the holidays I had 3 people working under my direction. That is 3 jobs, thanks to my deeper understanding of economics I know that my contribution to the economy as a professional far outweighs the subsidy I effectively received.

I read the article. It is my opinion that you can read any script with the words HIV in it and see two things. That HIV does not exist, in the face of scientific evidence, even electron microscope pictures which you have tried to ignore. That people are using the HIV epidemic to exploit the masses.

http://www.avert.org/evidence.htm

I have emailed your boss, even if he agrees with you, he is aware of the opinion I hold of you. I have asked you many direct questions and you answer me, only with more foolishness.

The only way you can prove your argument is to answer my questions which have shot holes through your standpoint. It is my opinion that you are deranged.

Thank You edc. Since you have now admitted to me that you are also just a worker like me, I am feeling free to inform you that I have allready emailed your boss. The letter is available online at:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/COSATULetter.html
http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=cosatuforum&Post=59&Idle=0&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=1&Session=
Unfortunately I am still waiting for a response.

[ToxicBunny]

BWAHAHAHAHA....

I'm sorry, I have to go and change my pants now, I laughed to hard at that...

Johan, you REALLY need to seek help, and hopefully one of these days you can actually grasp reality for what it truly is. Until such time, I truly do feel sorry for you.

[edc]

Thank You edc. Since you have now admitted to me that you are also just a worker like me, I am feeling free to inform you that I have allready emailed your boss.

http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=cosatuforum&Post=59&Idle=0&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=1&Session=
Unfortunately I am still waiting for a response.

He "already" emailed my boss. That is great since I don't even have his email address yet. Please send it to me also. Hope he pays well. I'm back at varsity for Honors.

My "boss", would promote me for taking such a strong stance against hippies like you, he will admire my activism.

Furthermore, I will be the executive director.

Forum participants please read:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/Beaurain/
and take note of:
David Crowe, President
Phone: +1-403-289-6609
Fax: +1-403-289-6658
Email: David.Crowe@aras.ab.ca

I've found this interesting also.
From: Johan Beaurain, 23 Lower Collingwood Road, Observatory, 7925.
Tel. 021 4479727 or Cell 0763528901, E-mail: johanbeaurain@yahoo.com
As this information is already available on Internet at:
http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=cosatuforum&Post=59&Idle=0&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=1&Session=
I feel I can post it here.

[edc]

Zwelinzima Vavi has heard me.
I read bits and pieces of your letter, since I've already had enough of you. My opinion, as you value it so much:
I think you are bitter because the respected academic institutions have slammed the door in your face.

[Rikus]

Johan you chop. That article has about as much bearing on prevention / living with aids as our own governments policies on the protection of the SA rag trade

(Unless of course you were aluding to the condom angle here, in which case everyone knows that asian condoms are just too small - OK so maybe you didn't)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahaha.....
You crack me up, man.
:D :D :D

[edc]

Johan you chop. That was the best!

[Johan Beaurain]

He "already" emailed my boss. That is great since I don't even have his email address yet. Please send it to me also. Hope he pays well. I'm back at varsity for Honors.

My "boss", would promote me for taking such a strong stance against hippies like you, he will admire my activism.

Furthermore, I will be the executive director.

edc I will not be surprised if Zwelinzima Vavi will be most impressed with your contribution to the profit margins of the COSATU owned drug companies.

But edc as a human being you are dissapointing me. I was hoping that your economic training at Potchefstroom would have empowered you to make some insightfull comments about the article on the USA jobs in condoms factories in the USA.

Just think about the bigger picture for a moment:

"The wheat to feed the starving must be grown in United States and shipped to Africa, enriching agribusiness giants like Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill. The American consulting firms that carry out antipoverty programs abroad — dubbed beltway bandits by critics — do work that some advocates say local groups in developing countries could often manage at far less cost."

The whole strategy might not have been designed in the way in which it is panning out in reality. But it will definitely not be in the interest of higher profits for the drug companies if their ARV drugs are working and healing the people.

I will not be surprised if the wheat that they are supplying to feed the starving are responsible for making the people sick. The medicines (ARV drugs) that they are supplying will certainly keep the people sick. Once most of the people in Africa are sick, it will certainly create very lucrative conditions for the drug companies to sell the sick people other forms of allophatic medicines for all the symptoms that their illnesses will manifest in them.

Could you think about strategies that would be improving the profit margins of the drug companies even further? Zwelinzima Vavi might require you to come up with something like that before he will consider recommending you for a directorship in one of the COSATU drug companies.

[ToxicBunny]

Oh jees, now that is a conspiracy theory of note. Wow, you are seriously out of touch with reality aren't you Johan?

[blonde one]

Just think about the bigger picture for a moment:

"The wheat to feed the starving must be grown in United States and shipped to Africa, enriching agribusiness giants like Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill. The American consulting firms that carry out antipoverty programs abroad — dubbed beltway bandits by critics — do work that some advocates say local groups in developing countries could often manage at far less cost."

The whole strategy might not have been designed in the way in which it is panning out in reality. But it will definitely not be in the interest of higher profits for the drug companies if their ARV drugs are working and healing the people.

I will not be surprised if the wheat that they are supplying to feed the starving are responsible for making the people sick. The medicines (ARV drugs) that they are supplying will certainly keep the people sick. Once most of the people in Africa are sick, it will certainly create very lucrative conditions for the drug companies to sell the sick people other forms of allophatic medicines for all the symptoms that their illnesses will manifest in them.

Could you think about strategies that would be improving the profit margins of the drug companies even further? Zwelinzima Vavi might require you to come up with something like that before he will consider recommending you for a directorship in one of the COSATU drug companies.

What a load of drivel! You're a freaking nut....:sick:

[Skeptik]

Thank You edc. Since you have now admitted to me that you are also just a worker like me, I am feeling free to inform you that I have allready emailed your boss.

http://www.labourstart.org/cgi-bin/UltraBoard/UltraBoard.pl?Action=ShowPost&Board=cosatuforum&Post=59&Idle=0&Sort=0&Order=Descend&Page=1&Session=
Unfortunately I am still waiting for a response.


Open letter to the General Secretary of COSATU

16 June 2007
From: Johan Beaurain, 23 Lower Collingwood Road, Observatory, 7925.
Tel. 021 4479727 or Cell 0763528901, E-mail: johanbeaurain@yahoo.com
Check the date. Perhaps you were going to send it in June?!? Could explain why no reply ...

[Rikus]

Check the date. Perhaps you were going to send it in June?!? Could explain why no reply ...
Nicely spotted.
:D :D

[edc]

There is no such thing as a "Johan Beaurain".

[edc]

edc I will not be surprised if Zwelinzima Vavi will be most impressed with your contribution to the profit margins of the COSATU owned drug companies.

But edc as a human being you are dissapointing me. I was hoping that your economic training at Potchefstroom would have empowered you to make some insightfull comments about the article on the USA jobs in condoms factories in the USA.

Just think about the bigger picture for a moment:

"The wheat to feed the starving must be grown in United States and shipped to Africa, enriching agribusiness giants like Archer Daniels Midland and Cargill. The American consulting firms that carry out antipoverty programs abroad — dubbed beltway bandits by critics — do work that some advocates say local groups in developing countries could often manage at far less cost."

The whole strategy might not have been designed in the way in which it is panning out in reality. But it will definitely not be in the interest of higher profits for the drug companies if their ARV drugs are working and healing the people.

I will not be surprised if the wheat that they are supplying to feed the starving are responsible for making the people sick. The medicines (ARV drugs) that they are supplying will certainly keep the people sick. Once most of the people in Africa are sick, it will certainly create very lucrative conditions for the drug companies to sell the sick people other forms of allophatic medicines for all the symptoms that their illnesses will manifest in them.

Could you think about strategies that would be improving the profit margins of the drug companies even further? Zwelinzima Vavi might require you to come up with something like that before he will consider recommending you for a directorship in one of the COSATU drug companies.

blah blah blah GLOBAL FREE-MARKET ECONOMY BETTER FOR EVERYONE SEE SUCCESS OF OTHER SUCH ECONOMIES blah blah blah STOP EATING THAT VERY SAME WHEAT PRODUCTS JOHAN blah blah HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO REASON blah blah blah HE EATS PURPLE TOOTHPASTE blah blah I WON'T STOP MOCKING HIM YET blah blah blah DAVID CROWSE CAN NOT BACK UP JOHAN'S THEORIES EITHER blah blah blah JOHAN CAN NOT ANSWER VALID QUESTIONS HE THROWS IN SOME MORE "blah blah blah" BUT WE ALL KNOW THAT HIS THEORIES HAVE BEEN SHOT, SLAUGHTERED AND HUNG OUT TO DRY blah HE CAN NOT DEFEND HIS WILD CLAIMS.

Johan you have not convinced a single person, if this is the way you plan to convince us and the rest of the world, you should rethink your plan of action.

JOHAN IS A HIPPIE blah blah blah PURPLE TOOTHPASTE MAGIC PILLS HERB PEDDLER blah blah blah.



edc I will not be surprised if Zwelinzima Vavi will be most impressed with your contribution to the profit margins of the COSATU owned drug companies.


I dont work for a drug company. I shall consider it.



But edc as a human being you are dissapointing me. I was hoping that your economic training at Potchefstroom would have empowered you to make some insightfull comments about the article on the USA jobs in condoms factories in the USA.


As you have no economic understanding or comprehension for any form of script you should be the last person in the world to have an opinion about anything. I'm correct and you are at fault.

You have stated HIV has never been shown to exist and we have shown you electron microscope photos.

[edc]

Johan Beaurain lied about emailing my boss, as I was only an intern for 3 weeks this holiday I don't have a boss anymore. Considering he lied so easily, should we still take him serious enough to answer him with facts from respected sources? His lie is proof that he will grasp at anything without substance in a desperate attempt to discredit people he can not otherwise prove incorrect in order to defend his theory.

Johan Beaurain is the same as nothing. It does not exsit

[Rikus]

Hi there,
>
>First off I believe I need to apologize for the South African known as
>Johan Beaurain. He is running around our forums trying to sow worker
>class disent. Saying that all current medication is false and that
>everyone should stop taking medication and use his Rath sponsored
>vitamins.
>
>He accuses all those of working in the real medical world of been
>slave masters and trying to commit genocide against the South African
>public. I would like to point out that this is a very sensitive matter
>here in South Africa. We have enough problems with witch doctors and
>tribal healers that do not treat patients correctly... we dont need
>more quacks here. We have enough problems to deal with.
>
>Its people like him that embarrass South Africa and suggest to our
>gullible health minister that African potato and Beetroot should
>replace ARVs for people who suffer from AIDS. Thanks to that at the
>recent AIDS conference in Canada, South Africa looked like the
>laughing stock of the world.
>
>While I can understand your need to investigate the HIV/AIDS theory
>deeper do not do it at the cost of people`s lives. Yes, people know
>ARVs are not healthy for them... neither is chemotherapy.
>
>ARVs have proven results (most specifically in mother to child
>transfer of the virus). If you as an organisation want to be taken
>seriously.... get serious people.
>
>Regards,
>
>Dave

Yup.
Even others need to apologize on your behalf.
:mad: :mad: :o :o :eek: :eek:

[edc]

Johan Beaurain, you have not answered me, or any other issues raised here. I will now post my correspondence with David.

[edc]

to David, from edc

Dear Sir

On behalf of South-Africa I apologize for Johan Beaurain.

Regards

---

from David

Please don't feel that you have to do that, I'm very proud of Johan.
It's very easy to go with the majority opinion but takes a great deal
of bravery to oppose the 'tyranny of the majority' after you realize
that it is wrong.

---

my final response

We discussed this matter in detail on this forum:
http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=67923

I'm the user "edc" in the forum. There are substantial questions we
have raised questioning this theory (that HIV does not exist) which he
has failed to answer, instead he resorts to personal attacks.
I believe doing that is the last resort of a person failing to admit
his fault. As a fellow academic I expect a constructive discussion,
his failing to do so have left me with a bad taste in my mouth
concerning your agendas. I will not actively build a wall around your
establishment.
I have written a letter to Cosatu, which is the major union in
South-Africa, expressing my opinion that Johan's ravings are
unsubstantiated and that of a deranged person.

Please answer our valid questions, till you do your agenda will only
be subject to mockery. If you really want to further your cause, you
will have to fill in the holes in your theories first.

---

Johan, UWC slammed you for your *** research as far as I deduce. I shall be contacting them, in order to encourage them to take further action against you.

As a member of a higher academic institution I expect solid empirical evidence of your controversial theories. You have failed to provide even a grain of credible proof.

[edc]

I read http://rethinkingaids.com/quotes/azt.html and http://rethinkingaids.com/quotes/haart.html and it my conclusion that the generic painkillers I use as often as once a month for headaches are more harmful than Anti-Retroviral drugs. Trial and error will show I'm incorrect but these painkillers have been tested by bona fide scientific institutions. The reason for this incorrect conclusion is that I do not accept the irrational ravings, connected with Johan as scientific proof. Empirical evidence in the past 20 years have shown Anti-Retroviral drugs to increase the quality of life of people infected with HIV and that painkillers do not generally kill people.

I have been reasonable and patient but Johan is unable to provide us with undeniable proof because since there is no such thing. As I have waited 2 weeks for this discussion to end I will now instead wait for Johan to die of HIV/AIDS in 3 years. Johan has described HIV as being a mythical dwarf of some kind and I hope it will find him and knock some sense in to him.

[Johan Beaurain]

Johan, UWC slammed you for your *** research as far as I deduce. I shall be contacting them, in order to encourage them to take further action against you.

As a member of a higher academic institution I expect solid empirical evidence of your controversial theories. You have failed to provide even a grain of credible proof.

edc I do not think that universities are suppose to slam their students. Academics teaching at universities are suppose to teach and guide their students.

I agree with you that I should be able to provide solid empirical evidence of my theories whilst working on a research dissertation. But work done on a research dissertation can only be a meaningfull process if the university is prepared to communicate with the student.

I never received a response to my letter of apeal to the Chairperson of the University of the Western Cape. But they continued to demand every sent of my outstanding fees, which I had to pay:

18 June 2005
From: Johan Beaurain, 23 Lower Collingwood Road, Observatory, 7925, South Africa.

Letter To: The Chairperson, Council of the University of the Western Cape, Private Bag X17 Bellville, 7535, South Africa, Telegraph: UNIBELL, Cell: 082 787 8243
E-mail: tyeku.s@doe.gov.za ,sheilatyeku@discoverymail.co.za

Dear Ms S. Tyeku

Re: Complaint on lack of Academic Freedom at the University of the Western Cape

I am busy with a master’s by thesis at the Education Faculty of the University of the Western Cape. I have done extensive literature research that leads me to conclude that the HIV/Aids hypothesis is invalid. In the light of this I would like to reiterate that should someone be diagnosed as HIV-positive this is in effect giving that person a death sentence. I offered the accepted phenomenon known as the placebo effect to back this up. I thought I would have the right to incorporate aspects of these insights into my questionnaire and learning sessions that I intend to use in my research. But now it seems I do not yet enjoy this basic human right. I thought that ethics is something that can assist me to improve the quality of my research. But now it seems that ethics are used to try and manipulate me into religiously repeating the incorrect mainstream views on HIV/Aids as if they are scientifically valid.

The specific aim of the research will be to explore methods that could help learners’ to develop a more holistic view of health with an emphasis on learning sessions focusing on Ayurveda (as a form of self-healing) with the aid of a learning programme pitched at the ‘General Education and Training’ band in terms of the National Qualifications Framework.

My interpretation of the revised national curriculum statement grades R-9 (schools) policy for Life Orientation is that learners should be empowered to a level where the learner will be able to make informed decisions regarding personal, community and environmental health. (Page 40) These outcomes do not give educators the right to decide for learners. Learners must be able to make their own decisions after the educators have done their duty of exposing learners to a wide range of information

This research will attempt to answer the question: Can the development of a learning programme based on a particular holistic and self-healing modality like that propagated by Ayurveda, make a difference in learners’ thinking about their own health and well being, particularly in relation to what is referred to in allopathic medicine as a ‘disease’ called HIV/Aids?

I will do this by way of a pilot study in which I develop and implement a few learning sessions on Ayurveda. The differences in learners’ thinking will be measured with a questionnaire to be completed before and after the complete set of learning sessions.

Unfortunately the Senate of the University of the Western Cape refused to approve my application for ethical approval of my research. But they never gave me the reasons for their decision. And without such I will be unable to adapt my research proposal. My supervisor has withdrawn because she refuses to supervise me without the ethical approval from UWC. The structures apparently argued that my research is unethical but no proper explanation as to exactly why it would be unethical has been provided. On top of it, it appears as if the academic leadership at UWC has now decided to ignore me. And the worst is that UWC seems to be demanding their fees for this ‘service’. I am feeling victimized as a result of this process followed by the structures of UWC.

I will appreciate it if you could put a stop to this abuse of power by requesting council to initiate the appointment of a new thesis supervisor. I need a supervisor that will be prepared to facilitate the completion of my research according to an agreed ethical code. I need a supervisor that will be able to give me clear explanations as to why my research is unethical. Whilst I am not getting any explanation as to why Senate argued that my research would be unethical, I can only conclude that the research is not unethical.

In my own opinion I am thus only in need of academic guidance in terms of structuring my approach according to scientifically valid, and academically sound arguments. I would prefer a situation where the academic/s appointed as supervisor, will also be prepared to engage, debate and disagree with me regarding aspects of my research. I thought that is what research at an academic institution is about.

I have kept a documentary record in this matter:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/articles/BeaurainSummary.doc
The record suggests that there are certain academics at UWC that would like to transform UWC from “A Place of Quality, A Place to Grow” into A Place of Indoctrination, A Place of Stagnation”. But should we allow them to do so? I don’t think so.

Perhaps we also need to take consideration of the fact that it is not only those who own the means of production whom are funding research at academic institutions. The tax-paying public and unemployed people should also have a say.

Or should we on this issue of HIV and AIDS just forget about trying to get any value out of academia? Some of my friends argue that when a large group of people becomes determined to terminate their lives, we should allow them to do so. Personally I will totally disagree with such an approach.

I feel that we must challenge this situation. It is clear that those who own the means of production have now succeeded in setting up a worldwide infrastructure that tests unsuspecting people with invalid HIV tests for a virus of which the existence cannot be proven. This charlatanry – that also happens at state subsidized academic institutions – is happening under the pretext of trying to save peoples lives. If this is not fraud, then I would like to see how fraud gets defined in our law.

In our young democracy there is still no talk of the creation of judicial commissions of enquiry to investigate such abusive activities. Despite the fact that these abusive activities are probably aimed at bringing about additional increases to the country’s already huge drug bill. We have thus little option but to initiate the development of a body of consciousness that could empower people to unravel the truth for themselves.

In the real world situation we are still faced with the dogged implementation of the invalid HIV/Aids hypothesis as if it is scientific. The power and resources behind these commercial campaigns are tremendous. Eventually we might have no other option but to continue waiting for the people to decide through the slow process of democracy who is really bearing the brunt of all this madness. But before this agony escalates to its full potential, can you please help me; maybe it will still be possible for us to try and deflect some of the suffering related to this disaster.

I want to thank you in advance.

Yours truly


Johan Beaurain
Copies:
1. The Registrar, University of the Western Cape, Private Bag X17, Bellville, 7535, or e-mail: imiller@uwc.ac.za
2. UWC students and staff.
3. Some Council Members and other interest groups.
4. The Minister of Education, Care of Private Secretary, Ms Amina Jacobs, Private Bag X603, PRETORIA, 0001, Tel: (012) 312 5501, Fax: (012) 323 5989, Cell: 082 809 0727 E-mail: Jacobs.a@doe.gov.za
5. The Minister of Health, Care of Private Secretary, Mr. Mduduzile Masuku (Acting), Private Bag X399, PRETORIA, 0001, Tel: (012) 312 0825 Fax: (012) 325 5526 Cell: 082 572 7196, E-mail: masukum@health.gov.za , mngads@health.gov.za
6. Dr. Saleem Badat, EO: CHE, Telephone: Telephone: +27 12 - 392 9119, Fax: +27 12 - 392 9110, E-mail: ceo@che.ac.za

[edc]

People die of HIV/AIDS without knowing they have contracted it, therefore eliminating the placebo theory. If you work in a hospital, you will find some patients who die within months of infection, from the first illness they contract. Often these illnesses are benign and would not affect an otherwise HIV/AIDS free person. You must be aware of that? I have 2 friends who work in hospitals, however, this is public knowledge.

Furthermore, a dissertation of the kind you propose, is so controversial, I would leave it to others who have already proved their credibility in the field. As you have not yet, any evidence you might bring to light would be disregarded anyway.

I'm sure HIV/AIDS does exist, you should consider the evidence we brought to light, an economist can change their minds every other day, moreover should a doctor, in the light of more convincing evidence.

Empirical evidence holds the most weight, there is no absolute proof that socio-capitalism is the best economic policy, but it has outlasted any other theory in practice. I urge you to reconsider your theories, even if convinces you even more so.

[Johan Beaurain]

People die of HIV/AIDS without knowing they have contracted it, therefore eliminating the placebo theory. If you work in a hospital, you will find some patients who die within months of infection, from the first illness they contract. Often these illnesses are benign and would not affect an otherwise HIV/AIDS free person. You must be aware of that? I have 2 friends who work in hospitals, however, this is public knowledge.

Furthermore, a dissertation of the kind you propose, is so controversial, I would leave it to others who have already proved their credibility in the field. As you have not yet, any evidence you might bring to light would be disregarded anyway.

I'm sure HIV/AIDS does exist, you should consider the evidence we brought to light, an economist can change their minds every other day, moreover should a doctor, in the light of more convincing evidence.

Empirical evidence holds the most weight, there is no absolute proof that socio-capitalism is the best economic policy, but it has outlasted any other theory in practice. I urge you to reconsider your theories, even if convinces you even more so.

edc: People die of HIV/AIDS without knowing they have contracted it, therefore eliminating the placebo theory. If you work in a hospital, you will find some patients who die within months of infection, from the first illness they contract. Often these illnesses are benign and would not affect an otherwise HIV/AIDS free person. You must be aware of that? I have 2 friends who work in hospitals, however, this is public knowledge.

Johan Beaurain: You cannot just assume that people who die in hospitals must have been suffering from a virus called HIV that has undermined their immunity. If a hospital is dirty with filthy air being circulated trough the building with the air-conditioning system, even a healthy person will fall ill if he or she spend enough time in such a hospital.

edc: Furthermore, a dissertation of the kind you propose, is so controversial, I would leave it to others who have already proved their credibility in the field. As you have not yet, any evidence you might bring to light would be disregarded anyway.

Johan Beaurain: Is this an admission that the whole system is rotten and that it is impossible for us to fight the rot in the system? Should all of us just behave in an opportunistic manner? Or are you saying that we should just pretend that we believe in the lies in the system so that we can earn ourselves a certificate or a degree? Will you be proud of yourself when the system will require from you to enforce and implement the lies that you pretended to believe in?

[edc]

My point is, a patient who is sick already, will enter a hospital and die that same day, of a disease that is benign, without knowing they have had HIV for only a few months. That debunks the placebo theory you had.

The academic system, relies on credibility, you have none left if you ever had any. Let someone else, more respected, with more experience, do the controversial research.

Everyone should behave in an opportunistic manner, if everyone does whats best for them it will be to the benefit of everyone else in the majority of cases. It is capitalism, and it s a very efficient system. We have a socio-economic system in RSA. I believe in this system even though it rewards the poor and lazy also. I feel money is best left with entrepreneurs, lower income taxes and reward the most productive people in the economy. The socio-economic system allows me to sleep well at night because I helped someone else who does not have the same abilities and drive I have. I will sell anti-retroviral drugs to the highest bidder, till he dies of a benign illness assisted by HIV/AIDS several years later. It will also let me sleep even better at night. If I were to hoard the anti-retrovirals people would die in heaps around me, within months of contracting HIV. It would be easier to empty their wallets though when they are dead. I will reconsider selling to them and prolonging their lives. Point taken.

[Johan Beaurain]

My point is, a patient who is sick already, will enter a hospital and die that same day, of a disease that is benign, without knowing they have had HIV for only a few months. That debunks the placebo theory you had.

Your theory might be true or false. But I think that we will get a better idea about whether your theory is true or false, once you have tried to prove your theory to us with the aid of an experiment.

[Johan Beaurain]

The academic system, relies on credibility, you have none left if you ever had any. Let someone else, more respected, with more experience, do the controversial research.
That might very well be true, but I do not know about any other person who is prepared to do the research that I wanted to do. Ok, but who do you want to suggest?

[Johan Beaurain]

Everyone should behave in an opportunistic manner, if everyone does whats best for them it will be to the benefit of everyone else in the majority of cases. It is capitalism, and it s a very efficient system. We have a socio-economic system in RSA. I believe in this system even though it rewards the poor and lazy also. I feel money is best left with entrepreneurs, lower income taxes and reward the most productive people in the economy. The socio-economic system allows me to sleep well at night because I helped someone else who does not have the same abilities and drive I have. I will sell anti-retroviral drugs to the highest bidder, till he dies of a benign illness assisted by HIV/AIDS several years later. It will also let me sleep even better at night. If I were to hoard the anti-retrovirals people would die in heaps around me, within months of contracting HIV. It would be easier to empty their wallets though when they are dead. I will reconsider selling to them and prolonging their lives. Point taken.

Yes I can understand exactly what you mean. Capitalism often cause people to think in the way that you do. Capitalism is a killer. The system of capitalism kills the people. And many of the people in the system of capitalism also kill the people. Some of them pretend to others that their killing is justified because it is legal. Others no longer care to justify their killing they just kill. But both of these two groups seem to kill for the money.

Some of these capitalist killers portrays themselves as socialists and communists.

[Johan Beaurain]

Let someone else, more respected, with more experience, do the controversial research.

You have realy impressed me with this issue that you have raised. And respected people do not realy have to research exactly what I wanted to research. Maybe you should have asked one of these respected academics that you know to come and give us a lecture on this forum.

RESPECTED PROFESSOR ON NEWS AND CURRENT AFFAIRS

How about asking one of your respected professors to deliver to us a paper on the purification of HIV?

We can then respond to the paper and ask the professor some questions in the open here on this forum.

[David Crowe]

I challenge everyone who believes in HIV to provide a scientific paper showing that the virus has ever been purified. Following that, please provide the papers that show that the RNA and proteins have been characterized. These are necessary steps before the first HIV test can be validated. Without validated HIV tests the term "HIV" is meaningless.

David Crowe
Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society, Canada

[ToxicBunny]

Oh isn't this just oh so fishy...

[Alan]

Oh isn't this just oh so fishy...

Bwahahaha

Poor TB

:D :D

[Rikus]

I challenge everyone who believes in HIV to provide a scientific paper showing that the virus has ever been purified. Following that, please provide the papers that show that the RNA and proteins have been characterized. These are necessary steps before the first HIV test can be validated. Without validated HIV tests the term "HIV" is meaningless.

David Crowe
Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society, Canada
As aids does not exist, it follows that your society does not exist and hence you don't exist.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

[edc]

Your theory might be true or false. But I think that we will get a better idea about whether your theory is true or false, once you have tried to prove your theory to us with the aid of an experiment.

Ask a real doctor in any clinic. If they are too busy saving lives ask a nurse. 30 people should suffice, to allow you to make an accurate conclusion. As you are the holder of the minority opinion, trying to disprove me, you can go do the research.


That might very well be true, but I do not know about any other person who is prepared to do the research that I wanted to do. Ok, but who do you want to suggest?

Nobody with a credible record would want to conduct your research, because they have more knowledge and understanding of the subject than you do to know already that your theories are incorrect. These people are credible because they are superior to you.


Yes I can understand exactly what you mean. Capitalism often cause people to think in the way that you do. Capitalism is a killer. The system of capitalism kills the people. And many of the people in the system of capitalism also kill the people. Some of them pretend to others that their killing is justified because it is legal. Others no longer care to justify their killing they just kill. But both of these two groups seem to kill for the money.

Some of these capitalist killers portrays themselves as socialists and communists.

Construing what I said to fit your agenda will not work on me. When you try to make a point, actually make one. Jibberish does not work on me, I did not take mind altering herbs.


Maybe you should asked one of these respected academics that you know to come and give us a lecture on this forum.

How about asking one of your respected professors to deliver to us a paper on the purification of HIV?


I'm sure a respected professor has already given you the information, which you have decided to ignore. If I have time to waste on campus I might contact someone. You should already know someone who opposes your opinion, with the proper medical background, invite them here for an open debate.


I challenge everyone who believes in HIV to provide a scientific paper showing that the virus has ever been purified. Following that, please provide the papers that show that the RNA and proteins have been characterized. These are necessary steps before the first HIV test can be validated. Without validated HIV tests the term "HIV" is meaningless.

David Crowe
Alberta Reappraising AIDS Society, Canada

It has been done already, oh bugger for you.
http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&q=purified+HIV&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

1,140,000 results.

http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=RNA+and+proteins+of+HIV&btnG=Search&meta=

I have not read the following link as I don't waste my cap anymore to prove to you what you know already.

http://data.unaids.org/pub/GlobalReport/2006/2006_GR_CH02_en.pdf

This will also help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV#Structure_and_genome

If you only used google before wasting your life up to this point.

Canada and Johan Beaurain does not exist.

[edc]

As aids does not exist, it follows that your society does not exist and hence you don't exist.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D

haha!

If Johan could read with comprehension or reason logically he would get what you said.

[Johan Beaurain]

edc please get honest now? I thought you said you are an honest worker like me. ( you said that you are working during the university holidays)

You also said that you believe in the existense of HIV. We then asked you to provide us with a scientific paper that shows that HIV has allready been purified. We did not ask you to demonstrate to us your abillity to do a google search with the words "purified HIV" as a search criteria.

Please edc let us get serious now. It is not nice to try and confuse workers in the way that you are doing now. It is important that everybody should understand that we can only claim that HIV exists once we can prove that they have succeeded to purify the virus called HIV.

We are awaiting your scientific paper that shows that HIV has allready been purified.

[Rikus]

edc please get honest now? I thought you said you are an honest worker like me. ( you said that you are working during the university holidays)

You also said that you believe in the existense of HIV. We then asked you to provide us with a scientific paper that shows that HIV has allready been purified. We did not ask you to demonstrate to us your abillity to do a google search with the words "purified HIV" as a search criteria.

Please edc let us get serious now. It is not nice to try and confuse workers in the way that you are doing now. It is important that everybody should understand that we can only claim that HIV exists once we can prove that they have succeeded to purify the virus called HIV.

We are awaiting your scientific paper that shows that HIV has allready been purified.
I think you will find what you are asking for here:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=980959&postcount=129

Whether you will observe and comprehend what you see is a different question.
:p :p
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[edc]

Johan I have answered you with enough detail for a reasonable man. You can choose to ignore the evidence but it does not make it any less real. I have read site after site which you have posted which was filled with nonsense, go read the sites I have posted.

[Johan Beaurain]

Johan I have answered you with enough detail for a reasonable man. You can choose to ignore the evidence but it does not make it any less real. I have read site after site which you have posted which was filled with nonsense, go read the sites I have posted.

You are worse than I thought edc. You have produced no evidence whatsoever. We asked you for one paper not thousands of irrelevant links.

Have we wasted our money on you when we subsidised your education.You try to create the impression that you are a honest worker but you are in fact totally dishonest because you are not willing to admit to us that you cannot even find a scientific paper where they have succeeded to purify HIV. Why don't you rather go and ask one of your respected professors to help you.

It is not nice of you to be dishonest with workers. The workers with whom you are trying to play these dishonest games have contributed to the tax base that is subsidising your education at the university. You have got a responsibillity to show your gratitude towards these workers. You cannot just run away to Australia or New Zeeland with your useless education. You will create an embarrasment for us if you behave in this manner over there.

We are expecting you to produce a scientific paper where they have succeeded to purify HIV.

[zeridine]

:sick:
wow! this sure spiraled out of control and comprehension since I last checked on this heap of filth of a thread.
by genial reasoning stated here, HIV & AIDS doesnt exist. ie no need for ARVs, thus also no need for dodgy vitamins. heck, even disease in general doesnt exist. if all medicines are poisons where does that leave us with vitamin supplements? werent they also made in a factory, (excuse me) ... *cough* high tech laboratory? but i guess vitamin supplements are made from the finest of ingredients like perfectly ripe pears and juicy figs drizzled with a bit of honey.

pfft. get real.

warning johan:
your thought processes may contain traces of peanuts, tree nuts and other possible allergens, like garlic and beetroot.

but i guess everyone should rather buy YOUR perfect blend of vitamins.

granted there are adverse effects to any medication or supplement used (nobody argued or denied this), i would like it to be explained why then do these poisonous ARVs increase the CD4 count as well as improve the CD4:CD8 ratio of those with HIV/AIDS? since they are poisonous why do they improve the immune system again? what exactly caused this annihilation of certain cell lines? what causes the glia in the brain to be destroyed? what causes the dementia in these 'proposed HIV/AIDS' patients? what causes the diarrhoeah? what causes the rampant opportunistic infections? WHAT ARE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS ON TELLING ME THAT HIV DOES NOT EXIST AND ARVS ARE POISONOUS??!

clairvoyancy, meditation and being a dual classed green-grocer/vitamin-peddler level 2/18 (INT: 4 WIS: 4 CHA: 2), on the matter makes you an expert? [tangent: i always wished one could play NWN as a chaotic evil pastry chef]
(PS I hope you understood the meaning of that last bit, since i can also swing around stringing useless information into an argument :p )

you greedy denialist fool.

[edc]

I have undeniably answered you. While you stop smoking crack I will take 10 minutes to read a few of the papers and answer you when I feel like it to further substantiate the evidence.

Google showed experiments were purified HIV was used.

Stop using words like "worker" and "honest" and stop questioning my education. It is off-topic and you can't use that to weasel your way out. You have proved you are dishonest, a liar when you said you emailed my boss. You are an unproductive outcast of our society, you are the one shunned by your academic peers because of your past performance.

I'm going to relax and enjoy my evening, expect a 3rd answer Monday. I expect you will ignore the proof again, anyway.

[Johan Beaurain]

I have undeniably answered you. While you stop smoking crack I will take 10 minutes to read a few of the papers and answer you when I feel like it to further substantiate the evidence.

Google showed experiments were purified HIV was used.

Stop using words like "worker" and "honest" and stop questioning my education. It is off-topic and you can't use that to weasel your way out. You have proved you are dishonest, a liar when you said you emailed my boss. You are an unproductive outcast of our society, you are the one shunned by your academic peers because of your past performance.

I'm going to relax and enjoy my evening, expect a 3rd answer Monday. I expect you will ignore the proof again, anyway.

But only if you promise to produce the scientific paper where they purified HIV by Monday afternoon at four. And not a minute later than four. You owe this to all the hardworking and honest workers of South Africa.

[zeridine]

But only if you promise to produce the scientific paper where they purified HIV by Monday afternoon at four. And not a minute later than four. You owe this to all the hardworking and honest workers of South Africa.



AIDS was first recognised in the United States in the summer of 1981, when the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported the unexplained occurence of Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia in five previously healthy homosexual men in New York and Los Angeles.
...
...
In 1983, HIV was isolated from a patient with lymphadenopathy, and by 1984 it was demonstrated clearly to be the causative agent of AIDS. In 1985, a sensitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) was developed, which led to an appreciation of the scope of HIV infection among cohorts of individuals in the United States who admitted to practicing high-risk behaviour....

Electron Microscopy shows that the HIV virion is an icosahedral structure containing numerous spikes formed by the two major envelope proteins, the external gp120 and the transmembrane gp41.


I'm not going to type the whole chapter for you. Go to a library at a university and R E A D! Inform yourself with FACTS.

TODAY we have much more precise methods to isolate and "purify" the virus. We call it PCR. Polymerase Chain Reaction. A blood (serum) sample is introduced to an enzyme which chops up the identifying RNA of the virus and reproduces that on a large measurable scale. translation: it takes a note written on a paper to the copier machine which then makes trillions of copies - which is quantifiable/measurable. IT IS CALLED A VIRAL LOAD TEST! It gets done daily at thousands of pathology labs worldwide.

HOW DO YOU TEST SOMETHING EN MASSE THAT "DOESNT EXIST" ??!
:rolleyes:

[zeridine]

You are worse than I thought edc. You have produced no evidence whatsoever. We asked you for one paper not thousands of irrelevant links.

yet you seem to do the same. hypocrite. cant you read your own posts/typographical diarrhoeah?


Have we wasted our money on you when we subsidised your education.You try to create the impression that you are a honest worker but you are in fact totally dishonest because you are not willing to admit to us that you cannot even find a scientific paper where they have succeeded to purify HIV. Why don't you rather go and ask one of your respected professors to help you.

and you are an arrogant bastard. have we wasted our breath in trying to argue with a daft pseudo intellectual like you? seems to be the case.


It is not nice of you to be dishonest with workers. The workers with whom you are trying to play these dishonest games have contributed to the tax base that is subsidising your education at the university. You have got a responsibillity to show your gratitude towards these workers.

BIG TANGENT ALERT! fantastic rehash of the same-old same-old since page 1. like vomit in a tumble dryer.


You cannot just run away to Australia or New Zeeland with your useless education. You will create an embarrasment for us if you behave in this manner over there.

You ar de embarresmend in dis fread. we not like to go to new zeeland. manies of fanks. cheerz ok? oraait. ;)

[Johan Beaurain]

Zeridene I am teling you now this whole thing about HIV that causes AIDS that causes DEATH is just nonsense man. It is just one big lie to try and scare you. There is no need to be scared. It is just a bogus gogga that they are trying to scare you with. Goggas can't scare us any more. We learn't to trample them as kids when momma wasn't looking. You cannot possibly want to try and tell me that you believe in such nonsense. Have they taught you about HIV/AIDS in Sunday-School or was it covered over a few modules in your university degree?

[zeridine]

Zeridene I am teling you now this whole thing about HIV that causes AIDS that causes DEATH is just nonsense man. It is just one big lie to try and scare you. There is no need to be scared. It is just a bogus gogga that they are trying to scare you with. Goggas can't scare us any more. We learn't to trample them as kids when momma wasn't looking. You cannot possibly want to try and tell me that you believe in such nonsense. Have they taught you about HIV/AIDS in Sunday-School or was it covered over a few modules in your university degree?

writing in big bold letters doesnt make your lame arguments more valid

it is like arguing with a rock. i'm done. i have give you FACTS. and then this is your response? please man - grown a backbone. you are flipping childish. why would i be scared about this disease entity? did i say that at anytime? you argue in circles and dont answer questions posed. i AM actually thinking for myself - unlike you. and yes i have learned extensively about HIV at university. the degree is called MBChB. you cant seem to say the same. you still have to produce any scientifically relevant FACTS to back your claims. quoting people as "this one time i like spoke to a lady on ARVs and asked her if she felt sick, and she said yes" doesnt merit one to say HIV doesnt exist. I can understand why academic institutions slam the door shut in your face. your train of thought has derailed. congrats on being a troll.

I say again - you look like a sleazy vitamin peddler bent on cashing in on misery, getting upset about a pharmaceutical company's financial results.

[marine1]

I suppose you support Jacob Zuma ?? :rolleyes:


Zeridene I am teling you now this whole thing about HIV that causes AIDS that causes DEATH is just nonsense man. It is just one big lie to try and scare you. There is no need to be scared. It is just a bogus gogga that they are trying to scare you with. Goggas can't scare us any more. We learn't to trample them as kids when momma wasn't looking. You cannot possibly want to try and tell me that you believe in such nonsense. Have they taught you about HIV/AIDS in Sunday-School or was it covered over a few modules in your university degree?

[Johan Beaurain]

I'm not going to type the whole chapter for you. Go to a library at a university and R E A D! Inform yourself with FACTS.

TODAY we have much more precise methods to isolate and "purify" the virus. We call it PCR. Polymerase Chain Reaction. A blood (serum) sample is introduced to an enzyme which chops up the identifying RNA of the virus and reproduces that on a large measurable scale. translation: it takes a note written on a paper to the copier machine which then makes trillions of copies - which is quantifiable/measurable. IT IS CALLED A VIRAL LOAD TEST! It gets done daily at thousands of pathology labs worldwide.

HOW DO YOU TEST SOMETHING EN MASSE THAT "DOESNT EXIST" ??!
:rolleyes:

Zeridene I had a look at your quote from:

Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine; Braunwald, Fauci, Kasper, et al. 15th Edition, Volume 2, Page 1852

When you were given this textbook as a student medical doctor you should have questioned your professors about the claims made in this book because they are simply not true.

You are now claiming that: “TODAY we have much more precise methods to isolate and "purify" the virus. We call it PCR. Polymerase Chain Reaction. A blood (serum) sample is introduced to an enzyme which chops up the identifying RNA of the virus and reproduces that on a large measurable scale. translation: it takes a note written on a paper to the copier machine which then makes trillions of copies - which is quantifiable/measurable. IT IS CALLED A VIRAL LOAD TEST! It gets done daily at thousands of pathology labs worldwide.

HOW DO YOU TEST SOMETHING EN MASSE THAT "DOESNT EXIST" ??!”

My guess is that it is out of pure arrogance and lack of a critical approach that you are claiming that you can isolate and purify HIV, whilst you should have known that HIV was never purified with the aid of an experiment. If you have allowed yourself to be a little more critical about the drivel they were asking you to suck up at medical school you would have known that the methods they are using to “isolate and purify HIV” are not valid.

If you have access to a paper where a scientist or scientists have written up the methodology that you suggest should be used to isolate and purify HIV, please produce that. Without you producing such a document there will be little scope for us to have a meaningful discussion.

I will be most reluctant to trust a medical doctor whom is as arrogant about your own incompetence as what you are. Even the inventor of the Polymerase Chain Reaction, Dr. Kary Mullis himself, will probably question you if you are claiming that you are using PCR to diagnose your patients as HIV-positive. “There's no question that PCR works, it's just a question of whether A) you can use it as a testing methodology and B) whether it can detect HIV using primers that were not taken from pure HIV and might therefore not be from HIV at all. - David Crowe on AIDSsoc Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:48 am (PST)"

And Zeridene we have had this discussion before under another thread on this forum. But if you insist on us repeating it again, I see no harm in it. Especially if there is a slight chance that a medical doctor could learn something from the discussion. Sorry for initially ignoring you, sometimes I am just too tired to follow up on every rude comment made by people posting on this forum.

[ghoti]

The absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.

[Johan Beaurain]

The absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.

That is correct yes, but you cannot start testing people for an imaginary HIV either. I am saying this because the HIV tests are invalid. None of the HIV tests were developed from the samples taken from a purified substance of HIV. The results from these HIV tests might be lighting up to what they think is HIV, but it might also be lighting up to something else that was also present in the unpurified HIV.

And several experiments have shown that HIV tests are lighting up to several other conditions that all existed before HIV was mentioned. HIV tests do not really test for a virus called HIV, because such a virus has never been proven to exist. HIV tests have been documented to react to more than seventy different, unrelated health conditions, including alcoholic liver disease, flu, flu vaccinations, malaria, tuberculosis, hepatitis, hepatitis B vaccination etc. Even past pregnancy can cause the test to react positively and mislead the doctor or nurse doing the test to tell a woman that she is infected with HIV when she isn’t.

And it is not nice to abuse unsuspecting people whom were caught in this trap. Especialy not if your intention is to try and persuade them to take highly toxic ARV drugs.

[zeridine]

Zeridene I had a look at your quote from:

Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine; Braunwald, Fauci, Kasper, et al. 15th Edition, Volume 2, Page 1852

When you were given this textbook as a student medical doctor you should have questioned your professors about the claims made in this book because they are simply not true.

O FFSBBQskatingaccident! i doubt that you have even read harrisons! on what do you base this assumption that it isnt true? HAHAHA! gimme a break! so these viruses they see under electron microscopes are figments of their imaginations. harrisons is a pile of rubbish you say. hahaha! try telling that to physicians.


You are now claiming that: “TODAY we have much more precise methods to isolate and "purify" the virus. We call it PCR. Polymerase Chain Reaction. A blood (serum) sample is introduced to an enzyme which chops up the identifying RNA of the virus and reproduces that on a large measurable scale. translation: it takes a note written on a paper to the copier machine which then makes trillions of copies - which is quantifiable/measurable. IT IS CALLED A VIRAL LOAD TEST! It gets done daily at thousands of pathology labs worldwide.

HOW DO YOU TEST SOMETHING EN MASSE THAT "DOESNT EXIST" ??!"

My guess is that it is out of pure arrogance and lack of a critical approach that you are claiming that you can isolate and purify HIV, whilst you should have known that HIV was never purified with the aid of an experiment. If you have allowed yourself to be a little more critical about the drivel they were asking you to suck up at medical school you would have known that the methods they are using to “isolate and purify HIV” are not valid.

If you have access to a paper where a scientist or scientists have written up the methodology that you suggest should be used to isolate and purify HIV, please produce that. Without you producing such a document there will be little scope for us to have a meaningful discussion.

For the love of shetland ponies! what the hell did i just post there?! how must one approach calling a spade a spade? PCR is what it is! the rules cant be bent! did you not read my post? what part dont you understand? the PCR process latches on to the RNA of the HIV and reproduces it en masse [ie highly specific for the RNA of the HIV]. if you so brilliantly understand the process of PCR why are you asking me this insipid question? do you understand electroproteinphoresis? you have a strange checklist for purification on everything. purify your thoughts for a start. have they "purified" the the influenza virus have they "purified" the echo viruses, arbo viruses, morbilli viruses, rota viruses entero viruses, etc etc etc? how come 2 major subtypes of the HIV virus had been "isolated" and described [HIV-1 and HIV-2]? what you are basically saying is that the whole academic subject of virology is worthless. i suggest instead of telling me this total bull you are spinning, YOU go read up on how PCR ELISA WESTERN BLOTTING etc works. Go to any laboratory and ask. i'm not going to spoon feed you.


I will be most reluctant to trust a medical doctor whom is as arrogant about your own incompetence as what you are.

Luckily i choose who i want to see as a patient. So if you cant argue my facts away, then i am the incompetent one? i have given you these facts that you have so eagerly begged for and now you have to resort to this as a argument? mud slinging on this topic is a favourite hobby of yours it seems.


Even the inventor of the Polymerase Chain Reaction, Dr. Kary Mullis himself, will probably question you if you are claiming that you are using PCR to diagnose your patients as HIV-positive.

so you know this dr Kary Mullis? you've had tea and a few discussions? hehehe. and i'm arrogant? you are presuming my dear.


“There's no question that PCR works, it's just a question of whether A) you can use it as a testing methodology and B) whether it can detect HIV using primers that were not taken from pure HIV and might therefore not be from HIV at all. - David Crowe on AIDSsoc Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:48 am (PST)" .

you are quoting hearsay. if that was from a scientific article WITH STATISTICAL RELEVANCE i would listen and be interested. "I have made a leg of lamb for dinner - Mrs Potter, in her house, Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:48am (PST)" can you see the relevance of my quote?


And Zeridene we have had this discussion before under another thread on this forum. But if you insist on us repeating it again, I see no harm in it. Especially if there is a slight chance that a medical doctor could learn something from the discussion.

My my my. arent 'we' grand? royal plural? well then we would listen to scientific evidence if thee and thine lackeys can produce for us some scientific papers with statistical relevance. but you cant. guess that was also just some hot air and a desperate attempt to salvage the scrambled argument of yours.

and thus johan will just reset the the whole debate, claiming hiv doesnt exist, claiming he has proof, claiming vitamins and happy thoughts will make you well again. all claims and no substance. delusions of grandeur. you selectively answer questions and contort words so that it can suit your needs. i am sick of you. you are a bag of wind.

so go and try to discredit me. i really dont care what you have to say. everybody sees you for the fool you are.

[Johan Beaurain]

Zeridene, what I need from you is a scientific paper where it was proven that HIV can be purified. A paper where they have spelled out the whole methodology of purification of the virus. Forget about all this talk about RNA that is highly specific for HIV. RNA can only be said to be highly specific once you can prove that you have used a purified source of HIV, not before.

I do not want a paper from some agency like the Centre for Disease Control, or a paper by some person who is too scared to write on his own name. I need a scientific paper written by a scientist that is prepared to put his name to the paper. A paper in which the purification of HIV was proven with the aid of an experiment.

[zeridine]

Zeridene, what I need from you is a scientific paper where it was proven that HIV can be purified. A paper where they have spelled out the whole methodology of purification of the virus. Forget about all this talk about RNA that is highly specific for HIV. RNA can only be said to be highly specific once you can prove that you have used a purified source of HIV, not before.

I do not want a paper from some agency like the Centre for Disease Control, or a paper by some person who is too scared to write on his own name. I need a scientific paper written by a scientist that is prepared to put his name to the paper. A paper in which the purification of HIV was proven with the aid of an experiment.

yawn.

look up anything by Brian Foley PhD, Bette Korber PhD, Carla Kuiken PhD, of the HIV Sequence Database, Los Alamos National Laboratory. For the complete genome alignment, it is available at http://hiv-web.lanl.gov, ask around there.

also check out these scientific articles: (ie your quest for "purification" of the virus)
the isolation of the HIV virus:
[RC Gallo: Sci Am 256:46, 1987]
the genome of HIV:
WC Greene: New England Journal of Medicine 324:308, 1991
ZF Rosenberg, AS Fauci: Immunology Today 11:176, 1990

lather. rinse. repeat. you just got pnwed again!

but i know you wont read these links and scientific articles and just blindly say that it proves nothing. ;)
It is difficult to take you seriously Johan. Just look at your hollow, vestibular impaired reasoning. you rehash the same thing over and over, even though you are proven wrong everytime. :D

[eye_suc]

if aids is nothing to be afraid of, prove it by getting AIDS from your friendly neighbourhood rapists, or convicts. i'm sure you will live a long and healthy life.

please... go ahead! make our day and become positive :D

[edc]

I have provided enough evidence. Zeridene has provided enough evidence. Johan has proved that he will die of HIV/AIDS. I'm going to exit this debate, as far as I am concerned Johan is a fool and I wasted enough of my time. HIV does exist.

[David Crowe]

The viral load test is based on PCR. PCR was invented by Kary Mullis, in fact he got the Nobel Prize in 1993 (Chemistry) for this revolutionary invention. And what does he think about it? Well, he is one of the most highly respected AIDS dissidents. He wrote the foreword to Dr. Peter Duesberg's 1996 book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" and included a similar chapter in his autobiography a few years later.
The problem with the viral load test is that you need to get the primers from somewhere. The only reasonable source for the primers is pure HIV. Since HIV has never been purified there is no evidence that the primers come from a virus, they might be endogenous.
Since the viral load test is virtually never used on people who are HIV negative there is no embarrassment when the viral load test is positive and antibody tests are negative.
And, I should point out, if you test people, give them a death sentence, and they believe in your power, many of them will die. This is especially true if the death sentence persuades them to take toxic drugs.
See: http://aras.ab.ca/test.html and http://aras.ab.ca/haart.html

[edc]

Purified HIV-1 and HIV-2 is used in experiments.

If I told you today you have cancer and made you go through cancer treatments, often just as toxic a healthy person would not die.
The same goes for HIV. People only start the drugs when they are too sick to live without it. While they are still healthy they do not commit to the drugs.

A drug company would not sell drugs that kills its clients, the business model does not make sense. People need those drugs otherwise they would die faster.

Ignoring the evidence in the face of scientific fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_reappraisal#Former_dissidents
This explains it, "the result of cherry-picking of predominantly outdated scientific data".

The same happened in this discussion, cherry-picking what you want to answer and ignoring the evidence.

[edc]

HIV antibody testing is unreliable

Diagnosis of infection using antibody testing is a well-established technique in medicine. HIV antibody tests exceed the performance of most other infectious disease tests in both sensitivity (the ability of the screening test to give a positive finding when the person tested truly has the disease) and specificity (the ability of the test to give a negative finding when the subjects tested are free of the disease under study). Many current HIV antibody tests have sensitivity and specificity in excess of 96% and are therefore extremely reliable.[7]

Progress in testing methodology has enabled detection of viral genetic material, antigens, and the virus itself in body fluids and cells. While not widely used for routine testing due to high cost and requirements in laboratory equipment, these direct testing techniques have confirmed the validity of the antibody tests.[8][9][10][11][12][13]

Positive HIV antibody tests are usually followed up by retests and tests for antigens, viral genetic material and the virus itself, providing confirmation of actual infection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_AIDS_misconceptions#HIV_antibody_testing_i s_unreliable

[edc]

AZT and other antiretroviral drugs, not HIV, cause AIDS

Main article: Duesberg hypothesis

The vast majority of people with AIDS never received antiretroviral drugs, including those in developed countries prior to the licensure of AZT in 1987. Still, today, very few individuals in developing countries have access to these medications.[35]

In the 1980s, clinical trials enrolling patients with AIDS found that AZT given as single-drug therapy conferred a modest (and short-lived) survival advantage compared to placebo. Among HIV-infected patients who had not yet developed AIDS, placebo-controlled trials found that AZT given as single-drug therapy delayed, for a year or two, the onset of AIDS-related illnesses. The lack of excess AIDS cases and death in the AZT arms of these placebo-controlled trials effectively counters the argument that AZT causes AIDS.[26]

Subsequent clinical trials found that patients receiving two-drug combinations had up to 50 percent increases in time to progression to AIDS and in survival when compared to people receiving single-drug therapy. In more recent years, three-drug combination therapies have produced another 50 percent to 80 percent improvements in progression to AIDS and in survival when compared to two-drug regimens in clinical trials.[36] Use of potent anti-HIV combination therapies has contributed to dramatic reductions in the incidence of AIDS and AIDS-related deaths in populations where these drugs are widely available, an effect which be unlikely if antiretroviral drugs caused AIDS.[37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46]

Same link.

[Johan Beaurain]

Purified HIV-1 and HIV-2 is used in experiments.

edc I am still waiting for the scientific paper that proves that HIV can be purified.

Neither you nor Zeridene could present such a paper to us. But both of you want to continue talking and posting your comments as if HIV exists.

Why don't the two of you rather go and consult with your respected professors? Maybe your professors will be able to convince you that the scientific world have not yet succeeded to purify that what they think is HIV.

With HIV not being purified, none of the HIV tests will be valid. I don't think that you should continue to try and confuse people about this. It is not nice of you to trick people into taking very poisonous "medicines" like ARV drugs. Are you members of COSATU? Or are you just promoting COSATU on this issue?

COSATU should not be encouraged to make money out of the manufacturing of "medicines" that is killing the people.

[edc]

The web pages dismissing Johan Beaurain as a hack can be seen in my previous posts. We have already showed him the papers he requested.

[edc]

I will certainly change my signature of my postings if I were you Johan.

[zeridine]

edc I am still waiting for the scientific paper that proves that HIV can be purified.

Neither you nor Zeridene could present such a paper to us. But both of you want to continue talking and posting your comments as if HIV exists.

logical deduction: you cant read. or you have selective amnesia

more than enough proof (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985629&postcount=147)

johan i am done repeating myself to you and your cronies.

[Johan Beaurain]

Zeridene are you programming your patients to die?

“People with AIDS must learn that much of what they are told about AIDS is mere speculation, i.e. theories. The idea that the virus invades white blood cells, called T4 helper cells, and destroys them is one such theory. This theory and myth has been presented to the public as fact. The idea that a diminished number of T4 cells is the critical factor in the development of AIDS is another such theory. The idea that a number of T4 cells below 200 is the magic measure of whether a person should start taking AZT is a pig-in-the-poke choice of numbers.”

“In my own medical practice I have a few patients who have had less than 50 T4 helper cells for months and years and they haven’t become weakened or ill with serious infections. On the other hand, one patient who followed a natural therapy had a T4 increase from less than 100, to over 600, at which time he developed pneumocystis carinii pneumonia.”

“T4 white blood cell counts are intimately related to mental focus. One of my patients was without symptoms and went to another doctor for an ‘AIDS test.’ The doctor did the test, which was positive, as well as the T4 helper cell count, which was 494 and normal. Upon learning that his antibody test was positive, the patient went into a tailspin of depression and fear. One week later he returned to the doctor because of his anxiety, and his T4 helper cell count was taken again. After one week of depression and no other symptoms, his T4 cells count fell over 50% to 234.”

“This intimate relationship of the mind and body raises a question about the true nature of the AIDS epidemic. It is not far-fetched to postulate that much of the immune system depression among AIDS-test-positive patients might be the result of doctors telling them that it is likely they will get AIDS and die. The brain is a giant immune system gland that operates on hope, joy, and optimism. The gland turns off in response to mental attitudes of fear and depression.

“The question is raised as to how many people are dying because they have been programmed to die. The observation is made that doctors who tell their patients they have a terminal disease are programming their patients to die. The charge is made that these doctors are performing malpractice.”


— Dr. Lawrence Badgley, MD, San Francisco. Author, Healing Aids Naturally

[zeridine]

Zeridene are you programming your patients to die?

“People with AIDS must learn that much of what they are told about AIDS is mere speculation, i.e. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................malpractice.”


— Dr. Lawrence Badgley, MD, San Francisco. Author, Healing Aids Naturally


you argue in circles.

everything you have just stated are hearsay and have been disproved.

go read edc's & my posts again, that is if you can understand the difference between random quotes and scientifically validated facts.

you go on a crusade wanting facts [which are given time and time again] when all you can produce to add to your arguments are lame quotes. "he said she said".

i'm tired of repeating myself johan - you seem to be even dumber than i have thought.

scientific (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=984862&postcount=137) proof (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985503&postcount=145) again and again (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985629&postcount=147)

if you cant follow a proper argument dont expect another reply.

[edc]

I think calling Johan an idiot so often in this thread has made him one. It was so easy to program him to be a mindless hippie.

Johan you are not a useless academic hack. Come back to reality!

[Johan Beaurain]

you argue in circles.

everything you have just stated are hearsay and have been disproved.

go read edc's & my posts again, that is if you can understand the difference between random quotes and scientifically validated facts.

you go on a crusade wanting facts [which are given time and time again] when all you can produce to add to your arguments are lame quotes. "he said she said".

i'm tired of repeating myself johan - you seem to be even dumber than i have thought.

scientific (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=984862&postcount=137) proof (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985503&postcount=145) again and again (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985629&postcount=147)

if you cant follow a proper argument dont expect another reply.

Zeridene the links that you provided do not lead to a paper where they prove that they have purified HIV. That is what I need from you before we can have a meaningfull discussion on this topic.

[edc]

We had a meaningless discussion, the conclusion was that you are a hack and that
HIV exists which causes AIDS. We have proved our position, your theories however does not even have a single credible document to back up what you propose.

[Johan Beaurain]

Purified HIV-1 and HIV-2 is used in experiments.

If I told you today you have cancer and made you go through cancer treatments, often just as toxic a healthy person would not die.
The same goes for HIV. People only start the drugs when they are too sick to live without it. While they are still healthy they do not commit to the drugs.

A drug company would not sell drugs that kills its clients, the business model does not make sense. People need those drugs otherwise they would die faster.

Ignoring the evidence in the face of scientific fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_reappraisal#Former_dissidents
This explains it, "the result of cherry-picking of predominantly outdated scientific data".

The same happened in this discussion, cherry-picking what you want to answer and ignoring the evidence.

edc on the site that you referred me to they are arguing that:

"The majority of the scientific community considers the causative role of HIV to be proven; dissident arguments are felt to be the result of cherry-picking of predominantly outdated scientific data, with the potential to endanger public health by dissuading people from utilizing proven treatments.[1][2][3][4]"

I am arguing that we need to question all scientific opinions because that is the basis of science. If my arguments are as outdated as what your reference says it is, why are they unable to provide me with the documents where they recorded the experiments in which they isolated HIV? They (and you as well as Zeridene) are unable to provide me with the documents where they have proven the isolation of HIV because they have never succeeded to isolate HIV.

[zeridine]

nobody cares johan.

[Johan Beaurain]

nobody cares johan.

If you are a doctor you should

[zeridine]

let quote myself the way you like to do:


nobody cares johan.

let me rephrase - nobody cares about what you have to say johan. ;)

[Johan Beaurain]

let quote myself the way you like to do:



let me rephrase - nobody cares about what you have to say johan. ;)
I know, but that does not mean that I am going to stop telling you that you are behaving in an unacceptable manner. Or are you just in it for the money?

[zeridine]

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=999380&postcount=166

yes. it must be the money johan. the money is the reason why i dont listen to a word you say
and you want to peddle machines and vitamins?
fairly original thought there johan.

[Johan Beaurain]

We should at least make sure that we argue in a scientific manner. Can you defend your theories whilst backing them up with scientific arguments? No you cannot. You want to prescribe to people a highly toxic medicine that you say will enhance their health and protect them against the onslaughts of an imaginary HIV.

[zeridine]

We should at least make sure that we argue in a scientific manner. Can you defend your theories whilst backing them up with scientific arguments?

OMW! practice what you preach, sir! and then re-read this thread. i find your responses very entertaining.

[Johan Beaurain]

We should at least make sure that we argue in a scientific manner. Can you defend your theories whilst backing them up with scientific arguments? No you cannot. You want to prescribe to people a highly toxic medicine that you say will enhance their health and protect them against the onslaughts of an imaginary HIV.

And then Zwelinzima Vavi claims that he is speaking on behalf of civil society.

http://www.cosatu.org.za/speeches/2007/zv20070314.htm

Who will get rich out of the sales of these highly toxic "medicines"? And who will die as a result of them being fooled into taking these highly toxic "medicines"?

It is not nice to fool people into becoming scared of these imaginary HIV-monsters that hides somewhere in the peoples blood.

The people should be told that it is impossible to prove the existense of these little HIV-monsters. COSATU should not even try to make money out of scaring people to death in this manner.

People should be told that all HIV tests are invalid. And to kill the people with highly "toxic medication" is really not a nice business to be in.

[Johan Beaurain]

And then Zwelinzima Vavi claims that he is speaking on behalf of civil society.

http://www.cosatu.org.za/speeches/2007/zv20070314.htm

Who will get rich out of the sales of these highly toxic "medicines"? And who will die as a result of them being fooled into taking these highly toxic "medicines"?

It is not nice to fool people into becoming scared of these imaginary HIV-monsters that hides somewhere in the peoples blood.

The people should be told that it is impossible to prove the existense of these little HIV-monsters. COSATU should not even try to make money out of scaring people to death in this manner.

People should be told that all HIV tests are invalid. And to kill the people with highly "toxic medication" is really not a nice business to be in.

COSATU can you please explain to us why you are not honest with the workers?

[jmak]

Johan Beaurain, from your comments it really seem that you have not sit around a table with biologists and geneticists. From your comments it rather seem that you sat around a table of first year BSc students just starting to learn a few new terms and feel that they may know better than the rest of the world.

Yes, I have sat with MSc students, PhD students as well as students busy with their post-doc in the field, and funny enough, non of them felt in any way that there is a discussion worth their time about its existence. The mere mentioning of aids results in in depth explanations with laboratory results to proof it.

So, in short, stop believing that you are unique, and listen, learn, and try to contribute.

(Sorry, this may have come over a bit too attacking, a bit of a bad mood today)


edc I am still waiting for the scientific paper that proves that HIV can be purified.

Neither you nor Zeridene could present such a paper to us. But both of you want to continue talking and posting your comments as if HIV exists.

Why don't the two of you rather go and consult with your respected professors? Maybe your professors will be able to convince you that the scientific world have not yet succeeded to purify that what they think is HIV.

With HIV not being purified, none of the HIV tests will be valid. I don't think that you should continue to try and confuse people about this. It is not nice of you to trick people into taking very poisonous "medicines" like ARV drugs. Are you members of COSATU? Or are you just promoting COSATU on this issue?

COSATU should not be encouraged to make money out of the manufacturing of "medicines" that is killing the people.

[diesel]

You gave him ARV's?, dam i woulda just given him a condom..

[zeridine]

why for the love of rugs was this thread dug up? this guy (johan beaurain) is a nut, and cant argue to save his life. your fiddling in his 'debris' is just gonna lure him back to start new braindead threads.

[Robin Hood]

logical deduction: you cant read. or you have selective amnesia

more than enough proof (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=985629&postcount=147)

johan i am done repeating myself to you and your cronies.

Take ZUMA's advice...You just need to jump in the shower ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV#Treatment

[VJB 449]

Some threads should simply die.

[oomhenry]

Cosatu In Capitalism At Its Deadliest
When I saw this headline, I expected to get an economic discussion. Instead of that I find a rant and rave about ARV's and AIDS. Is it just that my English is not up to scratch or am I missing something here?


BTW how can a banned guy post? There seems to be quite a few of them active in this thread. Just wondering?

[oomhenry]

Zeridene I am teling you now this whole thing about HIV that causes AIDS that causes DEATH is just nonsense man. It is just one big lie to try and scare you. There is no need to be scared. It is just a bogus gogga that they are trying to scare you with. Goggas can't scare us any more. We learn't to trample them as kids when momma wasn't looking. You cannot possibly want to try and tell me that you believe in such nonsense. Have they taught you about HIV/AIDS in Sunday-School or was it covered over a few modules in your university degree?

Johan
Waarvan gaan die mense dan op strepe dood? I don't want to get involved in an argument. I would just like to know what is really happening.:confused:

[capetownguy]

I particularly hate the "love life" campaign!
Living with AIDS is always depicted as a happy, rosy affair, they never show those suffering.