Affirmative Action here forever

[Syndyre]

"Contrary to Parliamentary calls by opposition Democratic Alliance (DA), affirmative action and current employment equity legislation would never be repealed but would be intensified instead," Labour Minister Membathisi Mdladlane said.


Can't say I'm surprised, as pathetic as it is.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=79&art_id=nw20070303172445167C224923

[Fudzy]

How many members have been overlooked due to AA?

[diabolus]

That's good, if a minister says "never" and "forever" it's in fact much better than "soon" and "imminently". I believe "forever" will occur before "imminently" ..right?

[marine1]

I have.

[Skeptik]

I think what the government is saying is that the currently advantaged will never be able to compete with the previously advantaged.

[Tanarri]

Let's see here. If affirmative action is here forever it will means that the lawmakers believes in appointing people according to race and not skills.

Let me tell you something. People are a lot like fairly 'immiscible' liquids. Cultures varying in that characteristics to a certain degree. English people may blend better with Afrikaners than Black people may blend with Chinese, for instance. Now when you just leave everyone to live there normal lives, people (like liquids) seperate into their respective 'pure' cultures. But varying degrees of cultures stay behind 'mixing' with other cultures. It means that you more likely to see three small companies, one Indians, one Afrikaners and one Black than one company having an Indian, Afrikaner and Black boss.

Now the government is constantly shaking us to make us mix more. But when they see that it doesn't always work, because we just settle apart again they start to try to boil us. That is because gases mix much more readily than liquids.

Now the government can try to support Black companies much more to start building their own enterprises, but it's much easier to just leech permanently. Going against nature.

[Telkomisaloser]

Oh well, if I ever run into this... Bye bye south africa

[IanC]

Oh well, if I ever run into this... Bye bye south africa
If you aren't a dual national, I would suggest you start looking now ... age is a factor in your ability to get into most countries (unless of course you're Bill Gates in disguise :D )

[Syndyre]

If you aren't a dual national, I would suggest you start looking now ... age is a factor in your ability to get into most countries (unless of course you're Bill Gates in disguise :D )

I think he's still in high school so he should be ok. :D

[IanC]

I think he's still in high school so he should be ok. :D

In that case TIAL ... university (E N G I N E E R I N G) first, then hit the embassies :D

[BTTB]

That's good, if a minister says "never" and "forever" it's in fact much better than "soon" and "imminently". I believe "forever" will occur before "imminently" ..right?

It may just seem like forever to The Minister?
More like a Story Book Tale where the characters live happily ever after in one big Castle, but each to his/her own room.

[JK8]

Can't say I'm surprised, as pathetic as it is.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=79&art_id=nw20070303172445167C224923

:D

[Hossie]

Just give it some time the ratio is 3 Million to appr. 45 Million soon it will be maybe 1 Million to 60 Million including illegal immigrants.
Why should S.A become different to the other 50 Nations in Africa, Which in 50 years just increased the Poverty, Really I feel sorry for the poor souls.

[CooperS]

"Contrary to Parliamentary calls by opposition Democratic Alliance (DA), affirmative action and current employment equity legislation would never be repealed but would be intensified instead," Labour Minister Membathisi Mdladlane said.


The use of the word "Equity" in the statement is the weirdest thing.

I have been working out of the country since 97 because of AA

[nivek]

Scary word in his statement is intensified... How could they make it any worse than already is?

[JK8]

The use of the word "Equity" in the statement is the weirdest thing.

I have been working out of the country since 97 because of AA

Equity is the right word, the ranks are still not equal.

[nivek]

I think JK8 wants a white free SOuth Africa :) dont worry the rate things are going you will get your wish

[nivek]

oh but bad news for you, once the jobs have been removed from the evil whities, that'll only be 4 million jobs??? Where we going to get another 4 million? Ah yes, the indian population :)

unfortunately the ANC dont know the meaning of 'job creation'

[telkomsuig]

There are inequalities in most countries of the world. For example the wealth and control the Jewish minority has in America or the Pakistani community has over the Taxi industry in New York... forced redistribution only results in the weak being empowered to the detriment of the country as whole. The size of the black population would have taken care of the redistribution of wealth naturally when the apartheid laws were repealed ... there just aren't enough white people to sustain the economy.

[CooperS]

Equity is the right word, the ranks are still not equal.


Smells pretty rank from where i am sitting sonny :sick:

[brixton tower]

oh but bad news for you, once the jobs have been removed from the evil whities, that'll only be 4 million jobs??? Where we going to get another 4 million? Ah yes, the indian population :)

unfortunately the ANC dont know the meaning of 'job creation'

What's the issue with all these white people thinking that South Africa will somehow collapse in the long-run because of affirmative action, in fact the opposite would be true because like someone else mentioned, many have dual nationalities any way and don't care for South Africa.
Closet racists on this thread need to do all of us a favour and come out and openly declare their racism.

[telkomsuig]

the point is currently the policy wants to redistribute the pie according to the ANC's agenda and not grow the pie. The current ee policies are one of the things that increase the cost of doing business in this country resulting in our very mediocre economic growth and high unemployment rate.

[feo]

How can it be 'equity' when preference is given to blacks over other races?! It's just a disguised form of racism.

[hj2k_x]

How many members have been overlooked due to AA?

I have.

[Skeptik]

What's the issue with all these white people thinking that South Africa will somehow collapse in the long-run because of affirmative action, in fact the opposite would be true because like someone else mentioned, many have dual nationalities any way and don't care for South Africa.
Closet racists on this thread need to do all of us a favour and come out and openly declare their racism.
Could it be because they see things are collapsing around them already. And it isn't just white people so don't stereotype.

You also assume that people with dual nationalities don't care about the country. I'm sure they do, especially if this is the land of their birth.

[I'll ignore the last daft paragraph:rolleyes: ]

[IamCanadian]

unfortunately the ANC dont know the meaning of 'job creation'

Yes. I would go a step further.

Africa has been unable to CREATE prosperous societies even after $580 billion is thrown their way from the west. AA notwithstanding!

One wonders what SA would look like today if the ANC had been in power since the dawning of SA 3 or 4 hundred years ago and where no colonials had come to SA in the first place?

[nivek]

What's the issue with all these white people thinking that South Africa will somehow collapse in the long-run because of affirmative action, in fact the opposite would be true because like someone else mentioned, many have dual nationalities any way and don't care for South Africa.
Closet racists on this thread need to do all of us a favour and come out and openly declare their racism.


Who said anything about the country callapsing? I have many black colleagues that got their jobs fairly and are more than capable.. I have many black intelligent friends..

But affirmative action isnt the way to go about doing things, it just takes UNSKILLED people and puts them in jobs they arent capable of doing..

Need an example? Home affairs, Telkom, Eskom, Department of Communications, ICASA, and every other government department and municipality, all rotting due to token appointments.

The problem with people like YOU and the rest of the ANC fan club on this forum is they cant handle accepting the fact that the ANC is wrong with most of its policies. When us 'racist whities' and the DA have something to say or would like to contribute opinions to the bettering of the country we get painted with the racist brush. The fact is most of us dont care what colour the leaders of this country are, we just want this country to operate like it should and not be dragged down due to corruption and bad policy.

[nivek]

And if anyone should come out and declare their racism, its the ANC LED GOVERNMENT, but nevermind, they have, subtly.

[IamCanadian]

What's the issue with all these white people thinking that South Africa will somehow collapse in the long-run because of affirmative action, in fact the opposite would be true because like someone else mentioned, many have dual nationalities any way and don't care for South Africa.
Closet racists on this thread need to do all of us a favour and come out and openly declare their racism.

Affirmative action does not work. AA has been tried in Canada and has been found wanting. In Calgary, for example, we are bleeding for police and EMS people because AA was applied in the past and not enough people of other colour or nationality would join the ranks.

Now they will practically take anyone who is breathing.

[hj2k_x]

Affirmative action does not work. AA has been tried in Canada and has been found wanting. In Calgary, for example, we are bleeding for police and EMS people because AA was applied in the past and not enough people of other colour or nationality would join the ranks.

Now they will practically take anyone who is breathing.

i don't think there is a country in the world where AA is it is practised in this country would work.

[nivek]

If Princess Ivy and Manto arent examples of why affirmative action is stupid then i dont know what is..

[Syndyre]

The use of the word "Equity" in the statement is the weirdest thing.

I have been working out of the country since 97 because of AA

Its typical political double speak, as pathetic as ever too.

[Syndyre]

What's the issue with all these white people thinking that South Africa will somehow collapse in the long-run because of affirmative action, in fact the opposite would be true because like someone else mentioned, many have dual nationalities any way and don't care for South Africa.
Closet racists on this thread need to do all of us a favour and come out and openly declare their racism.

What do you think will happen when the most skilled, wealthy section of your population leaves? Are you expecting Utopia?

[Syndyre]

One wonders what SA would look like today if the ANC had been in power since the dawning of SA 3 or 4 hundred years ago and where no colonials had come to SA in the first place?

Well Ethiopia was never colonised, maybe like that? They're doing great! :rolleyes:

[Getafix]

Yes. I would go a step further.

Africa has been unable to CREATE prosperous societies even after $580 billion is thrown their way from the west. AA notwithstanding!

One wonders what SA would look like today if the ANC had been in power since the dawning of SA 3 or 4 hundred years ago and where no colonials had come to SA in the first place?

The answer is staring you in the face.

Look at our neighbors, and that after white man's magic.

Just imagine what it would have been.

[brixton tower]

But affirmative action isnt the way to go about doing things, it just takes UNSKILLED people and puts them in jobs they arent capable of doing..

Need an example? Home affairs, Telkom, Eskom, Department of Communications, ICASA, and every other government department and municipality, all rotting due to token appointments.

The problem with people like YOU and the rest of the ANC fan club on this forum is they cant handle accepting the fact that the ANC is wrong with most of its policies. When us 'racist whities' and the DA have something to say or would like to contribute opinions to the bettering of the country we get painted with the racist brush. The fact is most of us dont care what colour the leaders of this country are, we just want this country to operate like it should and not be dragged down due to corruption and bad policy.

So what alternative do you have to affirmative action? Let's keep the status quo until the day white people decide to share or do we wait for 20 years like Zimbabwe, pretending that things are good, until a corrupt politician decides to exploit the disparity between the owners and the owned.

Seriously though many young black people want to earn their positions and don't want to be tokens, I for one could not live with myself if I was appointed into a position for which I was not qualified.
The vibe I'm getting on this board is that every black person appointed to a position is second-guessed and presumed to be incompetent until he does a double black flip, still firmly landing on his feet.

[DigitalSoldier]

Seriously though many young black people want to earn their positions and don't want to be tokens, I for one could not live with myself if I was appointed into a position for which I was not qualified.

How hard is it to earn your position if its written in the south african law that black people should be chosen over white people ? Wasnt that one of the basics of apartheid?

The market has changed a lot since 1994 and I think if AA was removed, the best person will be appointed for the job regardless of colour.

[AntiThesis]

There's nothing wrong with AA. It's a fantastic concept aimed at righting wrongs of the past and making sure people are able to find their way in the world without being disadvantaged by their backgrounds and financial status.

It's been mishandled badly. Even Trevor admits that people have missed the plot and mostly used it as a flimy excuse to put up billboards saying "Now 23% BEE!" which is ridiculous.

Things were done wrong in the past. It's right to fix the wrongs but wrong to fix them badly.

[dlk001]

How hard is it to earn your position if its written in the south african law that black people should be chosen over white people ?

Which Law says black people should be chosen over white people? Perhaps it can be challenged with Human Rights Commission if its unfair and unjust!

[Xarog]

Which Law says black people should be chosen over white people? Why don't you challenge it with Human Rights Commission if its unfair and unjust?
Guess you don't know your constitution, do you?

[DigitalSoldier]

Which Law says black people should be chosen over white people? Perhaps it can be challenged with Human Rights Commission if its unfair and unjust!

Well is that not what AA basically says ?

[dlk001]

Well is that not what AA basically says ?

No, its not. Its your interpretation.

[DigitalSoldier]

No, its not. Its your interpretation.

Indeed it is :p

But please tell me what does it boil down to ?

Edit: I have no problem like stated before if AA is implemented correctly but at the moment how it is implemented in this country is discimination.

[Nod]

No, its not. Its your interpretation.

Source: http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/pr/1994/pr0309.html

This policy will be applied to all who have been disadvantaged by apartheid and, as ANC President Nelson Mandela reiterated at Retreat recently, applies to Coloured people as much as any other affected group.

According to government, whites had not been disadvantaged, so whites will not be considered for AA positions.

[dlk001]

According to government, whites had not been disadvantaged, so whites will not be considered for AA positions.

Well, that seems to tie statistically with the situation SA is in as far as inequalities are concerned. Perhaps inequalities exist because "whites had not been disadvantaged".

Lets give those who were disadvantaged (the vast majority of SA population) a chance too. Obviously, a few will not be happy with that but diversity will hopefully benefit everyone in the long run.

[Nod]

Well, that seems to tie statistically with the situation SA is in as far as inequalities are concerned. Perhaps inequalities exist because "whites had not been disadvantaged".

Lets give those who were disadvantaged (the vast majority of SA population) a chance too. Obviously, a few will not be happy with that but diversity will hopefully benefit everyone in the long run.

AA, IMO, would work better if it worked on social status, i.e. how poor you are, not how dark you are. Also, putting money into education, would help a lot more people in the long run than AA in it's current form.

[CooperS]

Source: http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/pr/1994/pr0309.html


According to government, whites had not been disadvantaged, so whites will not be considered for AA positions.



Does this mean that us souties can be declared formerly disadvantaged?


.

[lewstherin]

AA is an idiotic solution that flouts basic economics in favour of political popularism.

If the govt really wanted to sort out the imbalances, they should have been pouring every available cent into subsidised schooling, trade colleges, universities and all other forms of education.

The historical legacy between the previously disadvantaged and the previously advantaged comes down to two major things:
- lack of the means to acquire education
- lack of the means to support one's family

I'm sure that there are hard core apartheid employers that would never have hired blacks, however thats what the CCMA is for.
The fundamental issue with AA is that it assumes there are enough experienced, skilled blacks to fill all the gaps the quotas require. The hard truth is that there isn't.

In enacting the AA laws, they've driven out a large number of highly skilled, intelligent people that realised there are other places in the world that actually appreciate what they can add to the economy. So skills transfer has become even harder.

On top of that lot, many of the very people that have left are the sorts of people that start new enterprises which create jobs and wealth. But seeing a vastly superior option elsewhere, such people have left, taking their financial, intellectual and human capital with them.

To me, if the government had spent 12 years focusing on educating the next generation rather than formalising reverse apartheid, the lights would stay on in Cape Town.
Instead, a new generation has grown up with the same polarised reality of racial segregation - just with a different name.

[IamCanadian]

In Canada here is how AA(aka Employment Equity) was implemented:

As of 1996, people of aboriginal ancestry made up two percent of Canada’s population, and visible minorities comprised another 11 percent.

These people, along with women and people with disabilities, are provided affirmative action, known in Canada as “employment equity,” in a number of ways.

The purpose of employment equity is to make the Canadian workforce reflective of the population at large and to correct conditions of employment disadvantage.

My question, if you look at SA and Canada side by side with roughly the same population, is this: How are the minorities, including the whites, chinese, koreans, Indians, Coloureds and others in South Africa protected under AA?

[Bageloo]

My question, if you look at SA and Canada side by side with roughly the same population, is this: How are the minorities, including the whites, chinese, koreans, Indians, Coloureds and others in South Africa protected under AA? I take it you live in Canada and therefore are not farmiliar with our version of AA.
Here goes

Who is affected ?

Designated employers and designated groups. Designated employers are those who employ 50 or more staff members or whose annual turnover is more than that set down in Schedule 4 of the Act (the figures vary according to the type of industry). The National Defence Force, National Intelligence Agency and South African Secret Service are excluded. Designated groups are blacks (Africans, Coloureds and Indians), women and people with disabilities.
As you can see the designated groups in SA (unlike Canada) are not necessarily minorities amongst the population at large. But due to apartheid they are very much minorities in the workplace especially in skilled level positions.

How can employment equity be achieved ?

Employers must draw up an employment equity plan, setting out the steps they intend taking to achieve employment equity, over the next one to five years. To do this, they need to analyse their workforce profile as well as their employment practices and policies. In drawing up the plan they must consult with unions and employees to get consensus around it. Employers need to report their equity plans regularly to the Department of Labour, which then monitors implementation

[IamCanadian]

I take it you live in Canada and therefore are not farmiliar with our version of AA.
Here goes

Who is affected ?

As you can see the designated groups in SA (unlike Canada) are not necessarily minorities amongst the population at large. But due to apartheid they are very much minorities in the workplace especially in skilled level positions.

How can employment equity be achieved ?

Since AA is applied in other countries to provide employment equity to minorities, how is the white minority provided with employment equity in SA?

Surely a country like SA needs to protect it's minorities including the white minority?

[Skeptik]

Since AA is applied in other countries to provide employment equity to minorities, how is the white minority provided with employment equity in SA?

Surely a country like SA needs to protect it's minorities including the white minority?
The way it works is like Canadian AA reversed. So anybody with a pale skin are like the Québécois but are lowest in the pecking order for jobs in the private sector, government contracts, government training schemes, trainees in government sponsored institutions, civil service, bursaries, free/subsidised housing, and even special share deals etc.

Disputed land has to be sold at lower than market rates to anyone with a claim (sometimes spurious) or else the government expropritates it.

Companies are also encouraged to hand over part-ownership to anyone classified as non-white. If they do not, they cannot get government contracts (supply or source).

Minorities are not protected. In fact they have become the whipping boys for all the problems in the country.

[IamCanadian]

Minorities are not protected. In fact they have become the whipping boys for all the problems in the country.

If this is the case, who would want to live in a country that does not constitutionally protect it's minorities in the workplace?

Surely this sets up a hostile business environment that would become increasingly untenable for minorities in the future SA!

It sounds really messed up. Doesn't it?

[sleeper]

Hahaha, JK8, I can tell you are enjoying this. I'll be keen to see how you feel in 10 years time, when South Africa has degraded to just another African country. Do yourself a favour and go and visit a couple of African countries - SA is marvelous compared to ANY of the other African countries – for now. And, unfortunately, SA WILL go down the same road. So, yes, go ahead, support your new form of apartheid, and see where the country ends up.

I have started my application to move to Auz, because of ppl with your type of mentality. And, I am afraid that you are too simple minded to realize the implications of the mass exodus happening right now.

Do you really and honestly think that somehow, South Africa will not fall into that same hole?

[froggytoo]

Hahaha, JK8, I can tell you are enjoying this. I'll be keen to see how you feel in 10 years time, when South Africa has degraded to just another African country. Do yourself a favour and go and visit a couple of African countries - SA is marvelous compared to ANY of the other African countries – for now. And, unfortunately, SA WILL go down the same road. So, yes, go ahead, support your new form of apartheid, and see where the country ends up.

I have started my application to move to Auz, because of ppl with your type of mentality. And, I am afraid that you are too simple minded to realize the implications of the mass exodus happening right now.

Do you really and honestly think that somehow, South Africa will not fall into that same hole?


I disagree Fully. IT ALREADY DEGRADED beyond redeem. We are on borrowed time and freebie money. Donors fatigue is setting in. We will be worse than ZIM SOONer than later. AND JK8 Knows it! His just stuck with his foolish and feeble comrade mentality attitude due to the "links" to the struggle, Yeah "struggle" as they do still now after a decade! Just cannot rule, like the rest of Africa. First IDI Amin, Now Mugabe...Next ZUMA? or just still Mbeki. No he will hide behind his 90 Mill walls, laughing at the populace.

[dlk001]

I disagree Fully. IT ALREADY DEGRADED beyond redeem. We are on borrowed time and freebie money. Donors fatigue is setting in. We will be worse than ZIM SOONer than later. AND JK8 Knows it! His just stuck with his foolish and feeble comrade mentality attitude due to the "links" to the struggle, Yeah "struggle" as they do still now after a decade! Just cannot rule, like the rest of Africa. First IDI Amin, Now Mugabe...Next ZUMA? or just still Mbeki. No he will hide behind his 90 Mill walls, laughing at the populace.

He's standing on top of the wall, laughing at this wishful thinking....

[brixton tower]

AA is an idiotic solution that flouts basic economics in favour of political popularism.

If the govt really wanted to sort out the imbalances, they should have been pouring every available cent into subsidised schooling, trade colleges, universities and all other forms of education.

The historical legacy between the previously disadvantaged and the previously advantaged comes down to two major things:
- lack of the means to acquire education
- lack of the means to support one's family

I'm sure that there are hard core apartheid employers that would never have hired blacks, however thats what the CCMA is for.
The fundamental issue with AA is that it assumes there are enough experienced, skilled blacks to fill all the gaps the quotas require. The hard truth is that there isn't.

In enacting the AA laws, they've driven out a large number of highly skilled, intelligent people that realised there are other places in the world that actually appreciate what they can add to the economy. So skills transfer has become even harder.

On top of that lot, many of the very people that have left are the sorts of people that start new enterprises which create jobs and wealth. But seeing a vastly superior option elsewhere, such people have left, taking their financial, intellectual and human capital with them.

To me, if the government had spent 12 years focusing on educating the next generation rather than formalising reverse apartheid, the lights would stay on in Cape Town.
Instead, a new generation has grown up with the same polarised reality of racial segregation - just with a different name.

Where does one start?

Basically white people have had job reservation for 400 years and for about 40 odd years it was formalised into law. The white folk in South Africa were not born with skills or some sort of God-given intellect that made them superior. The apartheid government imported white skills (remember the white influx from a depressed post WW2 Europe?) in pretty much the same way Oz, ENZED and the UK governments are doing right now.

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.

And please, don't blame the power blackouts on AA...that's a nice piece of propaganda used by the racists that just won't wash...you and every intelligent being knows why we had power blackouts- a fast growing economy without provision being made for new energy demands.

[IamCanadian]

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.



From where I am sitting it looks as if AA is going to be in SA FOREVER! So this means that for 400 and more years into the future, SA is now ensuring that minorities, including whitey, will be at a disadvantage to the black majority.

And your so called skilled middle class is yet to manifest and it won't if minorities are discriminated against as AA is applied now. Even the phrase "middle class" doesn't even belong in the ANC/SACP lexicon. They are just paying it lip service and everyone knows that Africa does not have a middle class anywhere. All you have is a few with everything and the masses with nothing. Give me one good example of a country in Africa where there is this middle class and preferrably in a country with more than 1 million inhabitants where 25% of the population does not have AIDS.

This just looks like it is a communist scheme to mess things up.

AA should be applied in the reverse way than it is being applied in SA otherwise you have a surefire recipe for trouble.

Trouble is Brixton, you won't be able to see this because you are brainwashed by the ANC, SACP and COSATU.

[RichardP]

Which Law says black people should be chosen over white people? Perhaps it can be challenged with Human Rights Commission if its unfair and unjust!

AA is in the SA constitution... So the Human right commision has got no leg to stand on.
If you dont like it.. read the SA constitution. AA will NEVER END, and its protected.




Equality

9. (1) Everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and benefit of the law.

(2) Equality includes the full and equal enjoyment of all rights and freedoms. To promote the achievement of equality, legislative and other measures designed to protect or advance persons, or categories of persons, disadvantaged by unfair discrimination may be taken.

(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

(4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.

(5) Discrimination on one or more of the grounds listed in subsection (3) is unfair unless it is established that the discrimination is fair.

http://www.polity.org.za/html/govdocs/constitution/saconst02.html?rebookmark=1#9




Limitation of rights

36. (1) The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors, including *

1. the nature of the right;
2. the importance of the purpose of the limitation;
3. the nature and extent of the limitation;
4. the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and
5. less restrictive means to achieve the purpose.

(2) Except as provided in subsection (1) or in any other provision of the Constitution, no law may limit any right entrenched in the Bill of Rights.

[lewstherin]

Basically white people have had job reservation for 400 years and for about 40 odd years it was formalised into law.
So fix the past 400 years with another 400 years of the same (just with the races reversed)...yeah that's bright. :rolleyes:
My whole argument is that clearly a better solution is to educate rather than litigate.
Any rational employer will take the best person for the job when given the option; skin colour/cultural background would not even come into it. The few employers that persisted with hiring less qualified people based on race would go bankrupt eventually.
So if the government poured all their energy into creating a new generation of skilled workers (through education subsidies, new colleges etc), blacks would naturally get more jobs because they'd have the skills to compete on an equal footing.



The white folk in South Africa were not born with skills or some sort of God-given intellect that made them superior. lol, you must have quite an inferiority complex to utter that...especially since I've never hinted at anything of the sort.



The apartheid government imported white skills (remember the white influx from a depressed post WW2 Europe?) in pretty much the same way Oz, ENZED and the UK governments are doing right now.The governments mentioned are importing skills...not white skills as you mentioned. All of these governments rightly realise that the important factor is whether the people coming in can do the job or not...they could care less about your skin colour or background. Unfortunately the SA government doesn't have the same attitude...it seems that in SA a poorly skilled black person has more value than a highly skilled white/indian/coloured person...and thus the mass exodus of skills will continue.
When given a option of more money, less discrimination and a safer life, anyone would give that a second look...



Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.Substantiation?
A skilled middle class requires skills. It also requires enough jobs that pay well enough. Both of these are dwindling commodities in the new SA thanks largely to government policies.
All the ANC has suceeded in doing is creating a small black middle class of questionable skill level, at the expense of the greater majority that are left uneducated and unemployed...




And please, don't blame the power blackouts on AA...that's a nice piece of propaganda used by the racists that just won't wash...you and every intelligent being knows why we had power blackouts- a fast growing economy without provision being made for new energy demands.
Oh man, you really like the strong stuff. Nice use of the favorite "racist" line - I never saw that coming :rolleyes: I find that when someone resorts to using racism as an argument, they've already lost.
Any well organised, well skilled and decently managed company knows how to do growth forecasting and planning.
A fast growing economy, and the resultant increase in electricity demand doesn't just happen - it takes years to get going and the signs are clear. The head comrades at Eskom were either too inexperienced to see it coming, or too poorly skilled to know how to manage it. I have an uncle that works high up in the engineering side of Eskom, and the stories he can tell about the gross mismanagement and general chaos several AA promotions have brought to his division are plain scary.
Keep those candles close my friend - you're gonna need them.

[Syndyre]

If this is the case, who would want to live in a country that does not constitutionally protect it's minorities in the workplace?

Surely this sets up a hostile business environment that would become increasingly untenable for minorities in the future SA!

It sounds really messed up. Doesn't it?

Not many people do, which explains the number of people leaving.

[Syndyre]

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.


No matter who suffers in the process?

[BobbyMac]

The white folk in South Africa were not born with skills or some sort of God-given intellect that made them superior.
Correct. BUT: As far as Africa vs the rest of the world, Africa has evolved extremely slowly. I often hear about all the things that were created and discovered in Africa - but before the 'colonialists' (and I'm using the word colonialists instead of whites because I don't fall into that particular demographic to begin with) came to Africa, the bottom line is simple: Africa was very very far behind the rest of the world. To this day many African people still live a tribal way of life. Whether you like to admit it or not, the arrival of the 'colonialists' kickstarted Africa into evolving, and whether you like it or not, the mere fact that you're reading this is thanks to the arrival of the 'colonialists'. So knock them all you want, but the day these 'colonialists' you all hate so much do decide to leave, then Africa is ****ed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

[marine1]

Let me break it down, AA is not unfair because in the LONG run South Africa will benefit from a skilled middle class who are dedicated to this country.
Is that what they tell you at the ANC meeting you go to?
:rolleyes:

[RichardP]

South African buisness should be like dicipline for kids... and everyone knows that negative re-enforcement does not work!

You can reward for good deeds... or you can punish for bad deeds. I think companies should get rewarded and recognised for the AA compliance in Tax breaks etc etc. -NOT- penalised, shunned and picked on for not being AA.

Companies are cash machines. If they have to get a few cheap 'window-dressers' for the books, they WILL. They dont care about skills advancement or what colour the people are, they care about How much money they can make USING the AA card.
5 Cheap un-educated 'window-dressers' count alot more in the eyes of AA than 1 well educated well deserved fellow that earned his job.

Is this what AA is about?

[dlk001]

No matter who suffers in the process?

If AA is proven to be unjust, unfair and resulting in suffering of people, then it should be challenged through the Human Rights channels.

[dlk001]

Companies are cash machines. If they have to get a few cheap 'window-dressers' for the books, they WILL. They dont care about skills advancement or what colour the people are, they care about How much money they can make USING the AA card.
5 Cheap un-educated 'window-dressers' count alot more in the eyes of AA than 1 well educated well deserved fellow that earned his job.

Interesting point RichardP. But, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot because that model of "window-dressing" is a short term "solution" for a long term disaster. If I was a leader, i'd consider long-term ramifications seriously because sustainability is important in business.

[Syndyre]

If AA is proven to be unjust, unfair and resulting in suffering of people, then it should be challenged through the Human Rights channels.

Its enshrined in the constitution, the only one I know of that deems some discrimination to be fair. :rolleyes:

[RichardP]

Interesting point RichardP. But, these companies are shooting themselves in the foot because that model of "window-dressing" is a short term "solution" for a long term disaster. If I was a leader, i'd consider long-term ramifications seriously because sustainability is important in business.

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

[Arko2]

Skills and 400 Years. The Names Schumacher,Ackermann, Bäcker, Müller, and so on, many more, are refering to skills dating back far longer then 400 Years.
My guess is it must be in the Genes

[dlk001]

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

I find this point very interesting RichardP because my previous company boss did exactly that. In the short-term (3yrs), we were the best division in the CSIR (9 divisions) that met transformation targets and best bottom line. We got the most government funding versus other divisions. Later, the fruits of window-dressing paid off and exposed the seriousness of the problem.

At the company I work for, we do a lot of research/consultancy work for DME. Our company work-force is predominantly white but we get contracts on bases of a scorecard. Engineers are hard to find regardless of color. The only way is to take a risk and develop them in house. Some will stay and other will leave for greener pastures (locally and overseas).

Its one thing to get the contract, but work needs to be done. If it can't be done, we lose credibility. Therefore, window-dressing is just out of question.
We try to fulfill other aspects of the scorecard and focus on building the skills rather than window-dress the skills. We need graduate engineers to do the work. They are in short supply (regardless of color). We cannot hire anything less than a degreed person with experience or fresh from varsity with capacity to learn. As far as AA, we show our structured programs to develop the skills. Fortunately, our clients (incl DME) understand the problem of lack of skills and appreciate our efforts in training and meeting other scorecard requirements.

Window-dressing doesn't serve a good purpose for anyone (client, company and employees) in the long run.

[brixton tower]

So fix the past 400 years with another 400 years of the same (just with the races reversed)...yeah that's bright. :rolleyes:
My whole argument is that clearly a better solution is to educate rather than litigate.

If you follow the news government was trying to be nice but a majority of employers in the private sector refused to play nice. So now we sit with affirmative action policies legislated into law.


Any rational employer will take the best person for the job when given the option; skin colour/cultural background would not even come into it. The few employers that persisted with hiring less qualified people based on race would go bankrupt eventually.

Read the above comment. So are you saying is that this country can't function without YT?


So if the government poured all their energy into creating a new generation of skilled workers (through education subsidies, new colleges etc), blacks would naturally get more jobs because they'd have the skills to compete on an equal footing.

Ever heard of the skills levy?


lol, you must have quite an inferiority complex to utter that...especially since I've never hinted at anything of the sort.

Ok, the humour starts here. No, I don't have any inferiority complex.


The governments mentioned are importing skills...not white skills as you mentioned. All of these governments rightly realise that the important factor is whether the people coming in can do the job or not...they could care less about your skin colour or background. Unfortunately the SA government doesn't have the same attitude...it seems that in SA a poorly skilled black person has more value than a highly skilled white/indian/coloured person...and thus the mass exodus of skills will continue.
When given a option of more money, less discrimination and a safer life, anyone would give that a second look.

Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.




Substantiation?
A skilled middle class requires skills. It also requires enough jobs that pay well enough. Both of these are dwindling commodities in the new SA thanks largely to government policies.

Forcing employers to make their workforce representitive of South Africa's population?



All the ANC has suceeded in doing is creating a small black middle class of questionable skill level, at the expense of the greater majority that are left uneducated and unemployed.

So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's? If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.



Oh man, you really like the strong stuff. Nice use of the favorite "racist" line - I never saw that coming :rolleyes: I find that when someone resorts to using racism as an argument, they've already lost.


Ever lived in South Africa? Why are you bringing up retarded points when we both know the history of this country



Any well organised, well skilled and decently managed company knows how to do growth forecasting and planning.
A fast growing economy, and the resultant increase in electricity demand doesn't just happen - it takes years to get going and the signs are clear.
I agree with you. We might as well call in YT to save our skins :D




Keep those candles close my friend - you're gonna need them.

Wouldn't you just love that?

[Tanarri]

Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.




So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's? If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.


It is estimated from information from Australian authorities that there are approximately 150 000 South African emigrants from the last 10-13 years living in Australia alone.

Let's add up popular destinations of New Zealand, England and the USA amongst others. Not quite normal compared to most countries and even the government admits it.

Maybe it has a lot to do with ambition. They see that you can get lots of money by sleeping and eating doughnuts (Ivy)(the communications minister gets informed by her friends about price changes in the communications sector - nothing wrong with the apparently), do nothing at all (maybe? Paris) or go on oversea trips all the time (guess who). Or what about examples of Zuma, Yengeni...

All the skills, but no ambition is like a like a candle under a bucket. A pity it may be our last hope from slipping back into dark Africa.

[Hogrod]

I'm going to explain to you about my experience of AA. I was offered a .Net Developer position job at Mweb, only later to be turned down the job at Mweb by the HR manager who said it was because I was not black. They did not have an alternative candidate to fill the roll, yet I was still denied the position. That to me is racism, I was very upset because I was discriminated for a job I was more than qualified for, based on the colour of my skin.

If we look at areas such as Eskom and government hospitals, there are a shortage of skills because those with skills have left or lost their posts due to AA. Otherwise known as the brain drain. Now Eskom are crying out for skilled people who have experience to come back from the UK or Australia to help train the new staff. People should be appreciated by their potential, skills and experience to fulfil a particular roll. It should not be based on the colour of their skin. If we are to do this correctly then companies should have a responsibility to train their candidates and not fill positions just to fulfill government required ratios. It may take another 100 years to equalise the issues created by the past but this is not the right way to do it. You can't have AA without the support it needs.

[Skeptik]

Correct. BUT: As far as Africa vs the rest of the world, Africa has evolved extremely slowly. I often hear about all the things that were created and discovered in Africa - but before the 'colonialists' (and I'm using the word colonialists instead of whites because I don't fall into that particular demographic to begin with) came to Africa, the bottom line is simple: Africa was very very far behind the rest of the world. To this day many African people still live a tribal way of life. Whether you like to admit it or not, the arrival of the 'colonialists' kickstarted Africa into evolving, and whether you like it or not, the mere fact that you're reading this is thanks to the arrival of the 'colonialists'. So knock them all you want, but the day these 'colonialists' you all hate so much do decide to leave, then Africa is ****ed. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
Nail on the head.:)
Africa owes a huge amount to European immigrants.

Also this 400 year thing quoted by brixton tower is not logical. It also seems to have increased from the previous "350 year" quote. Apartheid is not 400 years old.

In fact if we go back 400 years, we get 1607.

I don't recall many white people being around much in 1607. I know some British sailors were here around 1640 talking to "Harry the Strandlooper" - a Khoi-San individual - teaching him English. There was a settlement at the Cape by the Dutch East India Company from 1652. Hardly a colony even. But then there were no Xhosa tribes in the country at that time.

I won't bore you with more history, but lets get our facts straight.


I'm going to explain to you about my experience of AA. I was offered a .Net Developer position job at Mweb, only later to be turned down the job at Mweb by the HR manager who said it was because I was not black. They did not have an alternative candidate to fill the roll, yet I was still denied the position. That to me is racism, I was very upset because I was discriminated for a job I was more than qualified for, based on the colour of my skin.

If we look at areas such as Eskom and government hospitals, there are a shortage of skills because those with skills have left or lost their posts due to AA. Otherwise known as the brain drain. Now Eskom are crying out for skilled people who have experience to come back from the UK or Australia to help train the new staff. People should be appreciated by their potential, skills and experience to fulfil a particular roll. It should not be based on the colour of their skin. If we are to do this correctly then companies should have a responsibility to train their candidates and not fill positions just to fulfill government required ratios. It may take another 100 years to equalise the issues created by the past but this is not the right way to do it. You can't have AA without the support it needs.
Sorry to hear about you experience of the new Apartheid. What saddens me more is that you won't get much sympathy from government. They now say this sort of thing will be intensified. I get the feeling that white people are unwanted, unless they pay taxes or train blacks.:mad:

[dlk001]

You can't have AA without the support it needs.

Very true. It sounds like the company you applied for are digging their graves. It is stupid to window-dress "AA" by hiring less skill, previously disadvantaged or by reserving that post. It seems some companies lack leadership thinking.

[Hogrod]

The job I was denied was also not advertised as an AA position, the interviewers were also not aware that it was one. The HR manager for Mweb based in Jo'burg after I was offered (nothing signed yet) cancelled Mweb managers decision in Cape Town to tell me that the position is AA.

[BobbyMac]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

[dlk001]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

True.

[Hogrod]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.

This was 2 years ago, the thought really never occurred.
Ultimately I didn't want to burn my bridges, nor do I fully understand the law or have money to pay for lawyers. I am surprised though there have not been more court cases based on this policy.

[lord_spaceman]

I'm white. I'm young and I know I have a plethora of skills that SA needs, particularly in the IT Industry. If there ever comes a day that skin colour is picked over my skills, then bye bye SA, I'm out of here. Then government can take their AA **** and **** off. :)

[Roo!]

I haven’t got a problem with AA per say, if a PDI can do the same job as me and as well as me then fine have the job. What I do have a problem with is that there appears to be a leaning towards the idea that any PDI will be good enough for any position. This is simply not true.

There are actually three (3) areas that need to be in existence for a person to become a “professional” in a specific field of work. Firstly the person needs education, secondly the person needs experience and thirdly (and most importantly) the person needs the aptitude for the job.

The first item needs to be sorted out in the very beginning of the individual’s life, through parental guidance, schooling and formal training. This is where a country’s educational and social policies need to truly be working. Without a good foundation the entire process of becoming a contributing individual will fall flat on its face.

The second is where AA comes in, in that it is supposed to give those with little to no experience (for some discriminatory reason) the ability to gain this experience and thus become a productive member of society. This is a give and take exercise that requires security for the giver. An individual can not be expected to help the downtrodden if in the long run this act of helping will leave them in a place far worse than had they not helped at all. It has to be a two way street.

The third is where all the wheels of AA train fall off. If a person simply doesn’t have the aptitude for a specific profession no amount of education and nurturing will produce a productive member of society. This person would, under normal circumstances, simple fade away (either through retrenchment or through resignation). However, if it is entrenched in law that this individual is required to be there, then the environment in which this individual is placed will wither and die.

This best explained through an example:

A company hires a PDI and places this person in the care of a senior individual. It becomes clear to the senior that this person not only lacks experience but also lacks any fundamental ability for this profession. Since there is no way for this person to be gotten rid of, the senior now has no choice but to carry the workload of the junior individual as well as his own. Pretty soon the senior has had enough and resigns, leaving the workload to any senior staff member left or to the junior that can’t do it, not because he wasn’t given the tools to do so but because the person just doesn’t have the aptitude to do it.

The situation then just carries on getting worse and worse because either you have senior staff carrying a workload far larger than they can handle or you have a group of junior staff members that can’t do the work. In the end the result is the same, no work gets down and things fall to pieces. This is just one case; now imagine a entire country filled with individuals that were placed in positions for which they just don’t have the aptitude. There would be a total halt to the inner-workings of said country.

I am not saying, nor am I implying, that every PDI placed would not have the aptitude for the profession in which they are placed. What I am saying is that if AA is handled in a rash and rushed fashion, with a total disregard for the aptitude of the individuals then we are asking for serious trouble; and if a law is in place to support this type of haphazard style of placement then there is something seriously wrong with the law makers and the way they govern their country!!!

[marine1]

I'm white. I'm young and I know I have a plethora of skills that SA needs, particularly in the IT Industry. If there ever comes a day that skin colour is picked over my skills, then bye bye SA, I'm out of here. Then government can take their AA **** and **** off. :)
Whjat do you mean "IF there ever comes a day"? That day has come and is now law.

[lord_spaceman]

Meaning; if there is ever a situation I am faced with.

[dlk001]

There are actually three (3) areas that need to be in existence for a person to become a “professional” in a specific field of work. Firstly the person needs education, secondly the person needs experience and thirdly (and most importantly) the person needs the aptitude for the job.


A good point and very true, these are core fundamentals. It takes time to develop a "professional".



This best explained through an example:

A company hires a PDI and places this person in the care of a senior individual. It becomes clear to the senior that this person not only lacks experience but also lacks any fundamental ability for this profession.

This is where the problem starts. Why did HR/company hire PDI who lacks the relevant skill for the profession? As you are correctly pointing, it does not benefit anyone in the end. You are right, there is a need for GVT to rethink the AA model because despite of the intentions being clear, there is a growing negative perception due to the way its implemented. Also, skills transfer from senior to junior is part of a full time job which should be incorporated into performance areas. A few times, I found that I have to look after a junior person, yet, perform 110% of my other duties. It is ludicrous and I complain.

[IanC]

Meaning; if there is ever a situation I am faced with.

Best you dust your passport off then, if:

Trevor Manuel (http://www.news24.com/News24/AnanziArticle/0,6935,2-7-12_2077244,00.html)
AND
Membathisi Mdladlane (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=594&art_id=nw20070303172445167C224923)

get their way, which they will no doubt do.

[Skeptik]

An offer of employment is quite binding, IMHO. Perhaps an attorney would've helped you in this regard.
Surely it's only binding if you accept the offer - and within a reasonable time.

[lewstherin]

If you follow the news government was trying to be nice but a majority of employers in the private sector refused to play nice. So now we sit with affirmative action policies legislated into law.I'd love you to provide some hard evidence of this - somehow your word just doesn't cut it. Back statements like that with fact m8.



Read the above comment. So are you saying is that this country can't function without YT?Although I didn't say that, I would gander that if every minority race left SA, the country would be fairly screwed.




Ever heard of the skills levy?Would be nice to see where that money actually got spent. One of the many problems with the ANC is that they are quick to collect cash, but slow to spend it on anything substantial in the education/skills advancement sphere. My brother is a plumber, he has yet to get a chance to do his trade test because the plumbing SITA has scrapped the existing tests and has not finished creating a new one - this is after 4 years!



Everywhere I look I see white people happy and prospering, that hardly constitutes a mass exodus.
http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/economy/display_article.aspx?Nav=ns&lvl2=econ&ArticleID=1518-25_2003186
That link says it all. Of course there are prospering whites that will never leave. Just because you see a few whites in BMWs doesn't mean no one's leaving.



So what do you want the government to do? Wait for goodwill from YT's?
There was plenty of goodwill from the white populace in the early 90s, particularly among the younger generation that grew up knowing apartheid to be wrong and shameful...not so much goodwill now after 10+ years of reverse discrimination.



If you're questioning the of the skills of the small black middle class you need to go back to the universities where they trained...and you'll find that most of them employed in positions requiring high skils went to places like UCT/Wits while some studied overseas.I'm not going to debate this point because there aren't the stats to prove anything either way.
However I would point to the empirical evidence of rapidly declining service levels across many public sectors - telecoms, electricity, municipal services, and of course heaven forbid you have to deal with home affairs or the police.
That kind of widespread decline strangely coincides with the advent of AA laws...:rolleyes:



Ever lived in South Africa? Why are you bringing up retarded points when we both know the history of this country
So you're saying because of the country's history, blacks are entitled to employ racist smears with no justification?



I agree with you. We might as well call in YT to save our skins :D
Well Eskom better call someone, because they're in a deep hole and have brought the country down with them.

[IamCanadian]

However I would point to the empirical evidence of rapidly declining service levels across many public sectors - telecoms, electricity, municipal services, and of course heaven forbid you have to deal with home affairs or the police.


I concur here ABSOLUTELY.

I would add one point. The declining service levels are also a result of many skilled people leaving SA. Take my brother for example. He also lives in Canada after leaving SA. He now owns his own company and even has a boerseun working for him along with half a dozen other people. He manufactures cranes etc. He is VERY good at what he does. SA lost him. I have a number of friends who have left. Also very skilled. SA doctors by the score here in Canada.

Canada is having a field day and licking her chops accepting people from SA. It's like a bonanza and they didn't even have to pay for training. The net result is an eroding system in SA. And for some to claim that the blackouts are a result of a growing and prosperous economy I would probably have to disagree there. In Alberta, we are in a monstrous boom where unemployment virtually non existent. You could leave a job one day and be hired in 24 hours.

The colour of your skin will have NOTHING to do with you getting hired here. If you have the skill and are breathing you can get hired.

Everywhere you look the government is doing it's part to pave the wave of prosperity. They gave us free money, they lowered out taxes, one city needed $300 million and they gave it. Everything works here and that is because the skills are here.

Oh sure we need every kind of worker but the truth is that many of those skilled people are in fact coming from SA. What happens to SA?

Madness!

My 80 year old mother has now lost her government pension from SA because of some bureaucratic idiot that does not know how to deal with a simple issue of identity.

Give us a break brixton tower. By the way have you ever actually been up the brixton tower? I have.

[neio]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

[IamCanadian]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

Agreed.

(looks like you are having a good time in South America?)

[neio]

Yeap, S America is nice, pity about the spanish thou :)

[IamCanadian]

Yeap, S America is nice, pity about the spanish thou :)

no hablo espanol.

[xtermin8or]

Sustainability is one factor... but Government contracts are lucrative.... More companies will hire "window-dressers" JUST to get the Government contract - 2 years later the Government has paid BIllions out for the project, the Company managers are happy as they all have Porches - then the company is closed. Where is the justice there? That is NOT the spirit of AA and the SA Government has created a cottage-industry using its own people as pawns in corporate affairs.

So the problem with AA is not Government's implementation of the system, but the attitude of White owned and/or controlled business. This is not the intention of AA, as the law clearly states, that preference be given to suitable qualified members of designated groups

[xtermin8or]

Lets build a city called De La Rey and invite all the people who have lost jobs tru AA to come live in it and help build it, you give tax breaks to the company's who establish themselves there and follow Singapore's example. 15% across the board for company's.

The people who actually live there dont pay any tax on income they generate from within the city but they would pay tax on outside income.

I think it's do=able.

It's being tried, a small backward town, called Orania

[dlk001]

So the problem with AA is not Government's implementation of the system, but the attitude of White owned and/or controlled business. This is not the intention of AA, as the law clearly states, that preference be given to suitable qualified members of designated groups

Its blatant silliness by the companies/agencies who are hiring people who lack the relevant skill for the profession, and use AA as an excuse. Like I said in another post, they are digging their own graves.

[xtermin8or]

Or is it an attempt, by white owned and controlled business, to continue the oppression of the black man, by employing unskilled people, so as to have their numbers up, then employing white people to do the actual work, who then gain further skills and experience

Or is white business afraid to employ suitably qualified black people, as they are afraid their own white staff will be shown up

[xtermin8or]

short anecdote to illustrate my point

My wife is a qualified IT Professional from a designated group, she worked for an IT company for more than three years, they then appointed a young Afrikaans white guy, straight out of Matric, to head the Department she was working in, planning to have him study while working in this management position, this happened last year ( my wife left the company and has taken up a position elsewhere ) funny thing is, the guy still phones my wife to find out how to do certain things

If AA is not forced on white business, things in this country will not change

[BobbyMac]

short anecdote to illustrate my point

My wife is a qualified IT Professional from a designated group, she worked for an IT company for more than three years, they then appointed a young Afrikaans white guy, straight out of Matric, to head the Department she was working in, planning to have him study while working in this management position, this happened last year ( my wife left the company and has taken up a position elsewhere ) funny thing is, the guy still phones my wife to find out how to do certain things

If AA is not forced on white business, things in this country will not change
Your personal experience is hardly scientific evidence. If it was admissible (which it isn't), then everyone that I know of who happens to be white and retrenched because of company policies to meet AA quotas nullifies your point entirely. And honestly, if you expect us to believe that a company employed a fresh matriculant as a manager above your wife based purely on skin colour, then you must really think we're all stupid. You really like talking k@k don't you?

[dlk001]

Or is it an attempt, by white owned and controlled business, to continue the oppression of the black man, by employing unskilled people, so as to have their numbers up, then employing white people to do the actual work, who then gain further skills and experience

Or is white business afraid to employ suitably qualified black people, as they are afraid their own white staff will be shown up

or, its someone like my previous boss. He preferred black candidates that are less qualified for the job because they were "loyal" and he had issues with the ones that were qualified for the job because they were "ambitious".

What ever the purpose is, its very silly. It does not benefit anyone at the end (company, AA employee, rest of staff and AA policy).

[McSack]

short anecdote to illustrate my point

My wife is a qualified IT Professional from a designated group, she worked for an IT company for more than three years, they then appointed a young Afrikaans white guy, straight out of Matric, to head the Department she was working in, planning to have him study while working in this management position, this happened last year ( my wife left the company and has taken up a position elsewhere ) funny thing is, the guy still phones my wife to find out how to do certain things

If AA is not forced on white business, things in this country will not change


Seems like a very doubtfull situation to me. No IT company worth their salt gives a ***** what your skin color or gender is. My experience (20years thereof) in IT ... you get the job if you can do the job. There's no bull*****ting and nowhere to hide if you can't deliver in this industry.

[xtermin8or]

Seems like a very doubtfull situation to me. No IT company worth their salt gives a ***** what your skin color or gender is. My experience (20years thereof) in IT ... you get the job if you can do the job. There's no bull*****ting and nowhere to hide if you can't deliver in this industry.

Think what you like this is what happened and this is unfortunately the attitude of white business. Before AA was introduced, there was a distinct lack of black managers or appointments, that is precisely why AA was introduced, but white business still tries to get around the legalities, therefore the AA has to be intensified

[xtermin8or]

Your personal experience is hardly scientific evidence. If it was admissible (which it isn't), then everyone that I know of who happens to be white and retrenched because of company policies to meet AA quotas nullifies your point entirely. And honestly, if you expect us to believe that a company employed a fresh matriculant as a manager above your wife based purely on skin colour, then you must really think we're all stupid. You really like talking k@k don't you?

I never called it scientific, that's why I called it an anecdote, showing an attitude in one white owned company in South Africa, proving that the attitude existed in that company and may in all probability exist in other companies as well

Therefore all it does is show another side of the reality of the labour market in this country

On this company - they are so concerned about maintaining the superiority of the white male in the company, that even white women are discriminated against - one of the white female purchasers was passed over for promotion in lieu of a white man six years her junior in the company

They also employed a black women as a Sales Director, who was then given no decision making abilities, or even invited to attend management meetings, she left the company, but her name is still listed as a director

[BobbyMac]

Before AA was introduced, there was a distinct lack of black managers or appointments, that is precisely why AA was introduced, but white business still tries to get around the legalities, therefore the AA has to be intensifiedOr maybe it's because there weren't any suitably qualified black managers around yet? :rolleyes:

[BobbyMac]

I never called it scientific, that's why I called it an anecdote, showing an attitude in one white owned company in South Africa, proving that the attitude existed in that company and may in all probability exist in other companies as well

Therefore all it does is show another side of the reality of the labour market in this country

On this company - they are so concerned about maintaining the superiority of the white male in the company, that even white women are discriminated against - one of the white female purchasers was passed over for promotion in lieu of a white man six years her junior in the company

They also employed a black women as a Sales Director, who was then given no decision making abilities, or even invited to attend management meetings, she left the company, but her name is still listed as a director
Your point was nullified. Move on.

[Roo!]

Or is it an attempt, by white owned and controlled business, to continue the oppression of the black man, by employing unskilled people, so as to have their numbers up, then employing white people to do the actual work, who then gain further skills and experience

Or is white business afraid to employ suitably qualified black people, as they are afraid their own white staff will be shown up

The meek shall inherit the earth is a false statement, survival of the fittest is a more accurate one. Excluding nepotism and unjust laws, skill will show up the lack of skill every time, regardless of race, creed and religion!!!

It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and to be called a professional requires that you actually are one, with ability to back it. Charity is best left for the churches and not the business world as a charity is for giving and commerce is for taking!

[TheBossMan]

Affirmative Action Sucks really bad.....

That's why Richardsbay Municipality got so much staff shortages, because they will stay without a staff member before even considering a white person for the job.

Come on.. Now the public have to receive crap service as well

[protzkrog]

The meek shall inherit the earth is a false statement, survival of the fittest is a more accurate one. Excluding nepotism and unjust laws, skill will show up the lack of skill every time, regardless of race, creed and religion!!!

It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and to be called a professional requires that you actually are one, with ability to back it. Charity is best left for the churches and not the business world as a charity is for giving and commerce is for taking!

Precisely, business is not a charity

oh ja, but all Africa can do is stand "bak hand" and receive charity from the rest of the world...

[xtermin8or]

Your point was nullified. Move on.

Is that your counter argument - then I take it that my point was made

and I make that point again

Because of a lack of willingness by white business to transform, AA, BEE, BBBEE, and EE was introduced

The institution of these policies was not being adhered to, therefore, enforcement in terms of inspections started taking place

white business now ignores the legal parameters of AA and employ unsuitable people to positions, the reasons for this are many and varied and mainly speculative, but as pointed out by dlk001, is stupid as it is not sustainable

Many businesses continue to flout the legislation, prompting government to intensify the implementation of AA principles

[protzkrog]

what is the goal of a business ? to make money...
how does one make money ? investing in resources and people that CAN DO THEIR JOB

[xtermin8or]

Precisely, business is not a charity

oh ja, but all Africa can do is stand "bak hand" and receive charity from the rest of the world...

Oh please, you should know better, or your Apartheid upbringing and narrow mindedness is clearly showing through

South Africa has not asked for development funds from anyone, in fact when the President travels he promotes South Africa so as to gain foreign direct investment

[xtermin8or]

what is the goal of a business ? to make money...
how does one make money ? investing in resources and people that CAN DO THEIR JOB

yes in normal society, but South Africa is not a normal society, we have the majority black part of our society trying to make inroads into the economy and you have the previously advantaged white community desperately trying to cling on to economic power, and as the saying goes "deperate times call for desperate measures" and as stupid as it is, they will do anything to hold on to this power

[protzkrog]

we have the majority black part of our society trying to make inroads into the economy and you have the previously advantaged white community desperately trying to cling on to economic power, and as the saying goes "deperate times call for desperate measures"

they tried that in Zimbabwe...and we all know whats happening there, 1800% inflation...lol, go Bob!

the government should spend more money on education and training so the previously disadvantaged people and the currently disadvantaged people can compete on an EQUAL level for job posititions rather than on skin colour or race.

[RichardP]

Is that your counter argument - then I take it that my point was made

and I make that point again


Because of a lack of willingness by white business to transform, AA, BEE, BBBEE, and EE was introduced

The institution of these policies was not being adhered to, therefore, enforcement in terms of inspections started taking place

white business now ignores the legal parameters of AA and employ unsuitable people to positions, the reasons for this are many and varied and mainly speculative, but as pointed out by dlk001, is stupid as it is not sustainable

Many businesses continue to flout the legislation, prompting government to intensify the implementation of AA principles


What a load of horse-kuk. BEE/AA was documented even before the ANC got in to the presidency...it was documented when FW de Klerk was president.

AA is an idealism.. its NOT working... all the government is using their OWN people as little pawns in a political ****-fight.

The well educated black-man RESENTS the fact that he got his job based on Tokenism, and wont join a company where he is treated as "Just an AA candidate", so how does AA help?

Most of the AA candidates I have worked with know that they are AA tokens and they dont tow the line - they in fact know that they wont AND cant get fired.

When you have BEE companies selling black-skin names just to get the shareholders names on BEE companies and the percentages up... how is this empowerment? Look at the big high profile companies... Most have all bought their BEE credits from a company that is run by members of parlament. Go research who run the BEE part of major corporations. Mkize's name will be on several

Is this what AA and BEE is about?

[xtermin8or]

they tried that in Zimbabwe...and we all know whats happening there, 1800% inflation...lol, go Bob!
the government should spend more money on education and training so the previously disadvantaged people and the currently disadvantaged people can compete on an EQUAL level for job posititions rather than on skin colour or race.

The situation in Zimbabwe is there because they ignored the situation for twenty years, AA and land reform in South Africa is an attempt at avoiding that situation

[BobbyMac]

xtermin8or. Though I appreciate that you may not be very intelligent, please note the following: you tried to use your wife's experience as a point. It would have been fair enough, BUT, like an idiot you actually tried to tell us that a person fresh out of Matric was appointed as your wife's manager. Either that kid was a whizkid or more likely you're full of it (as per usual). And it ain't just me who saw through your BS sunshine. So if you wish to stress a point, keep within the bounds of the topic and don't try and draw in fictional stories to back up your so-called 'facts', okay?

[xtermin8or]

What a load of horse-kuk. BEE/AA was documented even before the ANC got in to the presidency...it was documented when FW de Klerk was president.
AA is an idealism.. its NOT working... all the government is using their OWN people as little pawns in a political ****-fight.

The well educated black-man RESENTS the fact that he got his job based on Tokenism, and wont join a company where he is treated as "Just an AA candidate", so how does AA help?

Most of the AA candidates I have worked with know that they are AA tokens and they dont tow the line - they in fact know that they wont AND cant get fired.

When you have BEE companies selling black-skin names just to get the shareholders names on BEE companies and the percentages up... how is this empowerment? Look at the big high profile companies... Most have all bought their BEE credits from a company that is run by members of parlament. Go research who run the BEE part of major corporations. Mkize's name will be on several

Is this what AA and BEE is about?

The ANC understood the dynamics of the country and had plans in place, but it was only implemented after business was given a chance to transform on their own

the rest of your rantings are not a counter argument, but rather an enforcement of my previous point - white business is responsible for the poor implementation of AA

[protzkrog]

white business is also responsible for SA being the economic giant of Africa...

[blonde one]

white business is responsible for the poor implementation of AA

If it wasn't for white business there would not be anything for AA condidates to share in!

[JK8]

If it wasn't for white business there would not be anything for AA condidates to share in!

They had a 20 year+ headstart.

[protzkrog]

and Africa had like 1000's of years headstart ? isn't SA the cradle of humankind ?

[blonde one]

They had a 20 year+ headstart.

Yes AND they worked damn hard in those 20+ years to build up what they had. It wasn't handed to them on a plate.

[xtermin8or]

Yes AND they worked damn hard in those 20+ years to build up what they had. It wasn't handed to them on a plate.

Yes it is mighty hard work to keep a people oppressed for such a long time

[xtermin8or]

xtermin8or. Though I appreciate that you may not be very intelligent, please note the following: you tried to use your wife's experience as a point. It would have been fair enough, BUT, like an idiot you actually tried to tell us that a person fresh out of Matric was appointed as your wife's manager. Either that kid was a whizkid or more likely you're full of it (as per usual). And it ain't just me who saw through your BS sunshine. So if you wish to stress a point, keep within the bounds of the topic and don't try and draw in fictional stories to back up your so-called 'facts', okay?

is this your argument - I provided you with an anecdote, of what actually happened to my wife - believe it, don't believe it, that is your choice. But my point stands

As I now see that I overestimated your intelligence - I will rather continue this discussion with someone on the same intellectual level as myself, I suggest you do the same, and as the Zoo opens around 9, you'd better get down there soon, before you lose your place to one of your peers, like Eugene Terreblanche, Piet "skiet" Rudolph, or Barend Strydom

[blonde one]

Yes it is mighty hard work to keep a people oppressed for such a long time



As I now see that I overestimated your intelligence - I will rather continue this discussion with someone on the same intellectual level as myself, I suggest you do the same, and as the Zoo opens around 9, you'd better get down there soon, before you lose your place to one of your peers, like Eugene Terreblanche, Piet "skiet" Rudolph, or Barend Strydom

Xtermin8or, you are your own enemy! Have you ever considered that it could be your bitter attitude that's at fault. You are oppressing yourself!

[dlk001]

The well educated black-man RESENTS the fact that he got his job based on Tokenism, and wont join a company where he is treated as "Just an AA candidate", so how does AA help?

No, it definitely does not help in this instance. You have a good point indeed. Why do some company continue with tokenism? Why can't companies employ an AA candidate instead of less skilled person?


Most of the AA candidates I have worked with know that they are AA tokens and they dont tow the line - they in fact know that they wont AND cant get fired.

The one side is that the employees know they can't be fired. The other side is that the bosses hired them as tokens and won't fire them. Its very silly.

I have seen black employees being managed-out for towing the line. Its very difficult to fire an employee regardless of color, so I guess managing them out made sense to the boss at the time.

[BobbyMac]

is this your argument - I provided you with an anecdote, of what actually happened to my wife - believe it, don't believe it, that is your choice. But my point stands

As I now see that I overestimated your intelligence - I will rather continue this discussion with someone on the same intellectual level as myself, I suggest you do the same, and as the Zoo opens around 9, you'd better get down there soon, before you lose your place to one of your peers, like Eugene Terreblanche, Piet "skiet" Rudolph, or Barend StrydomROFL. You know what's really sad: you're the one hung up with being a minority and you don't know how to deal with it. You've learnt that the ANC government doesn't give a **** about you unless you're Black (which you maintain you're not). Poor you. As for my "peers" - your prejudiced assumptions are really paramount to your inadequacies as a man. I pity your wife. For the record, buddy, I am a coloured - so bang goes your theory about me.

[xtermin8or]

ROFL. You know what's really sad: you're the one hung up with being a minority and you don't know how to deal with it. You've learnt that the ANC government doesn't give a **** about you unless you're Black (which you maintain you're not). Poor you. As for my "peers" - your prejudiced assumptions are really paramount to your inadequacies as a man. I pity your wife. For the record, buddy, I am a coloured - so bang goes your theory about me.

and what has that got to do with my theory about you - you still remain the same ignorant fumbling dweeb I spoke about earlier.

I am not hung up with being a part of the minority, I am proud of being a part of the minority, I do not always agree with the ANC, but do agree with some of their policies which are aimed at orrecting the imbalances of the past. As a coloured person, you would have suffered those injustices, unless you were an impimpi or a ja baas

[JK8]

and what has that got to do with my theory about you - you still remain the same ignorant fumbling dweeb I spoke about earlier.

I am not hung up with being a part of the minority, I am proud of being a part of the minority, I do not always agree with the ANC, but do agree with some of their policies which are aimed at orrecting the imbalances of the past. As a coloured person, you would have suffered those injustices, unless you were an impimpi or a ja baas

You second on the list and you complaining!! Idiot.

[xtermin8or]

he has to because the baas looked after him good in the good old days, give him some names of the terrorists and he gets some nice red wine

[BobbyMac]

and what has that got to do with my theory about you - you still remain the same ignorant fumbling dweeb I spoke about earlier.

I am not hung up with being a part of the minority, I am proud of being a part of the minority, I do not always agree with the ANC, but do agree with some of their policies which are aimed at orrecting the imbalances of the past. As a coloured person, you would have suffered those injustices, unless you were an impimpi or a ja baasI'm a fumbling dweeb? You're the one trying to reach for examples to stress your point, yet those examples are laughable! And you're like an ANC 'yes man' mate - more to the point, you're a T-Bone 'yes man'. I, unlike you, value all people willing to contribute - and I also know that the White Man has contributed more to this country than will ever be appreciated. I also appreciate that Afrikaaners are uniquely African, and that their contributions to this country and to the world far outweigh the negatives of the last 50 years. So, take your Affirmative Action loving minority ass and get with the program. Affirmative Action is being abused by all races (black, white, indian and yes - even coloureds) - taking it beyond the point of actually doing what it was intended - it is broken, and no amount of force from a government will ever fix it.

As for correcting the imbalances of the past - you seem to be stuck on the past, and as long as South Africans remain fixated on the past - it doesn't have a future. As for my "ignorance", you've attempted to hide your ignorance with the use of bad "real-world" examples - and that is an ignorant feat even I won't ignore. Pompous, arrogant fool.

[Roo!]

BobbyMac for president (and it's affirmative to boot) ;)

[xtermin8or]

Affirmative Action is a policy used to attain Employment Equity, that is that jobs in the workplace must be equitable to the people in the country - a win-win situation for everyone. It is as simple as that.

As for your admiration and love for the white man, no-one is saying that the white man has contributed nothing to this country, but they are responsible for some of the worst attrocities this country has ever seen, and so they are not being kicked out of the country or their wealth has not been seized and redistributed - for all intents and purpouses they got off very lightly for their crimes against humanity ( Remember that the owners of most of the wealth today had some hand in exploitation during Apartheid ). For this the white man should be thankful - but in a typical western attitude he doesn't understand the spirit of Ubuntu and sees this as weakness and as an opportunity to return the country to white rule. Is this what you really want, as you are playing into their hands - or is it the situation where the kidnapped falls for the kidnapper, in this case the oppressed falls for the oppressor.

I will say this again, the situation my wife found herself in is in fact true, and you know it is happening out there, the company she worked for was not an IT company, she had a job in the IT dept of the company - and maybe they didn't realise the importance o fhaving a qualified person in the position, and I would not be surprised if they still have her listed as an employee to get their figures up

[chiskop]

BobbyMac for president (and it's affirmative to boot)
He'll never be *my* president. ;)

[protzkrog]

And how about the British that commited far worse attocrities in the Anglo Boer war (killing 27 000 women and children) why cant the Afrikaners have a share in their companies ? it's only fair, in the spirit of Ubuntu.
what crimes against humanity ? where are the mass graves ?

[xtermin8or]

And how about the British that commited far worse attocrities in the Anglo Boer war (killing 27 000 women and children) why cant the Afrikaners have a share in their companies ? it's only fair, in the spirit of Ubuntu.
what crimes against humanity ? where are the mass graves ?

careful, your ignorance is showing through - Apartheid has been declared a crime against humanity

Were the Afrikaners not compensated for the attrocities during the Anglo-Boer war ?

[RichardP]

No, it definitely does not help in this instance. You have a good point indeed. Why do some company continue with tokenism? Why can't companies employ an AA candidate instead of less skilled person?


Skills come from Education.... Education costs alot of cash... so insted of hitting companies with a big stick, why doesnt the Government invest cash in the people? No education in SA is for free...hence, the opressed people cant afford to get skilled.... hence no jobs... ad nauseum. You reap what you sow. You cant expect a compant to emplot someone with less skill and train them as all that happens is that there is 1 person training the newbie (so 1 resource is out of action) and after training, the newbie leaves for more cash as he is now 'trained'

Companies have absolutely no return on investment.

[telkomsuig]

If we knew then what we know now. The NP should have forced the Anglo's, de Beers of the time to give 25% to Africkaners ... FOR FREE.

[Nod]

Were the Afrikaners not compensated for the attrocities during the Anglo-Boer war ?

No. How do you compensate for wiping out 25% (or more) of a population?

[protzkrog]

careful, your ignorance is showing through - Apartheid has been declared a crime against humanity

Were the Afrikaners not compensated for the attrocities during the Anglo-Boer war ?
3 million pounds...so thats 111 pounds for every woman and child that the British murdered...not to mention all the farms destroyed and livestock killed

but ja, why cant Afrikaners have a share in British companies ?

[mac_mac74]

Heheh, anybody know of a good black IT support person in Cape Town who isnt willing to job hop after 2 months!!!! Yeah right.

[xtermin8or]

And how do you compensate for decades of oppression

[McSack]

And how about the British that commited far worse attocrities in the Anglo Boer war (killing 27 000 women and children) why cant the Afrikaners have a share in their companies ? it's only fair, in the spirit of Ubuntu.
what crimes against humanity ? where are the mass graves ?

Why stop there... why not also include Shaka who decimated indigenous tribes from the Phongolo to the Mzimkhulu river ... slaughtering thousands, taking heir herds and giving their women away to his impi as concubines???

Shouldn't we then exclude all Zulu's too?? wonder how happy they'd be ? we might even see a couple of impi in the flesh

[telkomsuig]

I think all the wealth should be distributed to the bushman they were here first and driven out by the hordes from the north

[protzkrog]

And how do you compensate for decades of oppression
well the government thinks that forcing companies to share their wealth with persons on the basis of skin colour is a good idea, as well as racist employment policies...

[protzkrog]

I think all the wealth should be distributed to the bushman they were here first and driven out by the hordes from the north

yep, give it all back to the bushmen, the San and the Khoi, all the Nguni settlers should go back home

[RichardP]

And how do you compensate for decades of oppression

You got the country back?!!! isnt that 1st prize? You got handed a fully working country, take that as a 'Franchise Starter pack' and improve on it, not pillage it and penalise the patrons of the country..

If a work collegue took your stapler, and returned it 6 months later... do you sue him for 'compensation' due to being forced to go without one ? or are you happy that you got it back?

Some people are never happy with what they got... go to DRC, Ivory coast etc etc and see what little those brave people have... and then come back to SA and complain. You fail to realise "It could be worse", accept the gif that its better and work towards a common goal.

[JK8]

You got the country back?!!! isnt that 1st prize? You got handed a fully working country, take that as a 'Franchise Starter pack' and improve on it, not pillage it and penalise the patrons of the country..

If a work collegue took your stapler, and returned it 6 months later... do you sue him for 'compensation' due to being forced to go without one ? or are you happy that you got it back?

Some people are never happy with what they got... go to DRC, Ivory coast etc etc and see what little those brave people have... and then come back to SA and complain. You fail to realise "It could be worse", accept the gif that its better and work towards a common goal.

Agreed! And that goes for you to.

[Syndyre]

Agreed! And that goes for you to.

What? Accept it could be worse? How is it acceptable to move from a situation where certain groups were treated as second class citizens to a situation where a different group are now treated that way?

[blonde one]

What? Accept it could be worse? How is it acceptable to move from a situation where certain groups were treated as second class citizens to a situation where a different group are now treated that way?

It's SA's new rock n roll - take 1 step forward and 3 steps back.

[protzkrog]

it's pure racism disguised as this wonderful thing called Affirmative Action

[dlk001]

You got the country back?!!! isnt that 1st prize? You got handed a fully working country

First prize would have been a country without the inequalities that affect our society today.

However, we need to build on the positives and fix the negatives. Its going to take a very long time.

[Roo!]

Luanda and Angola in general work better than this place and don't tell me that what happened there is comparable to what happened here; it's far worse!!!

The only difference is that their majority don't walk around with a chip on their shoulders demanding to be given everything for their efforts in the struggle, they're all working together to get the place back on track.

Nobody loses in their case but here it is more to do with retribution than rebuilding & reconciliation and I for one have nothing to pay penance for.

[JK8]

What? Accept it could be worse? How is it acceptable to move from a situation where certain groups were treated as second class citizens to a situation where a different group are now treated that way?

Is the new government treating you like we were treated? Wrong!

[Skeptik]

The ANC understood the dynamics of the country and had plans in place, but it was only implemented after business was given a chance to transform on their own

the rest of your rantings are not a counter argument, but rather an enforcement of my previous point - white business is responsible for the poor implementation of AA
The trouble with BEE is the way it is being implemented. It is used as a rewasrd system for former struggle figures or anyone in the bosom of the ANC as a political favour.

Here's a good example:

Not now. In a short time Carolus, former ambassador to London and darling of those nostalgic for the optimistic non-racialism of the United Democratic Front, has become a firm BEE favourite.

Carolus, Dolly Mokgatle, Wendy Lucas-Bull and Thandi Orleyn make up the Peotona consortium, one of two lead partners of the R1,1-billion BEE deal of cement producer Lafarge. The other lead partner is Motjoli, led by Nchakha Moloi and Nonkqubela Mazwai.
http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=279249&area=/insight/insight__economy__business/

[protzkrog]

what happens in the rest of africa ? the leaders (and government ppl and their comrades) get rich, and the poor stay poor...same thing is happening with BEE

[Syndyre]

Is the new government treating you like we were treated? Wrong!

Its a slippery slope...

[RichardP]

Is the new government treating you like we were treated? Wrong!

Actually they are treating us alot worse.... the Apartheid government at least gave the African people rights to rule their home-lands. (as they see fit)

[JK8]

Actually they are treating us alot worse.... the Apartheid government at least gave the African people rights to rule their home-lands. (as they see fit)

SO they were thrown into areas and said there, make what you want of it and dont come out!!:confused:

[MyDraadloos]

SO they were thrown into areas and said there, make what you want of it and dont come out!!:confused:

Problem is they did not make anything of it ........

[JK8]

Problem is they did not make anything of it ........

Errrm some built R30 mill homes on it

[RichardP]

SO they were thrown into areas and said there, make what you want of it and dont come out!!:confused:

Its a right.. isnt it? You got given the rights to Self-determination.. I am not arguing how apartheid worked (or didnt) - I am pointing at Rights!. My parents came to the beautifull country of South Africa 30 years ago... and now I am paying for 400 years of crimes. Makes logical sense to me.

BEE and AA dont work... as most of the people (Black and White) involved with the programs are corrupt as hell, so you can only blame yourself for the opportunistic nature of the AA and BEE people that are raping the system.... and now its the companies fault for not complying?

[Skeptik]

Errrm some built R30 mill homes on it
Where did the money come from? What happened in Bop?

[protzkrog]

precisely...who should pay for the crimes of apartheid ? the white kids that just finished matric in 2006 ? should they bear the brunt of affirmative action ? is it fair ? was apartheid their fault ?

[MyDraadloos]

Errrm some built R30 mill homes on it

Ye ........ the king of BobTV was a real entrepreneur.

[JK8]

precisely...who should pay for the crimes of apartheid ? the white kids that just finished matric in 2006 ? should they bear the brunt of affirmative action ? is it fair ? was apartheid their fault ?

If you benefitted from apartheid any way or form you have had some part to play in it.

[JK8]

Where did the money come from? What happened in Bop?

Whats a Bop?

[RichardP]

If you benefitted from apartheid any way or form you have had some part to play in it.


JK8, your memory seems to be very short.... WHITES faught Apartheid too!!!! even Afrikaans whites.. it was not an exclusive 'BLACK' fight.

[protzkrog]

so if blacks benefit from the power stations, dams, roads, etc. they should also pay for apartheid ?

lol, what a k@k argument

[Skeptik]

Whats a Bop?
You betray your age.:D
Bophutatswana. One of the wonderful homelands. The idea was to send people back to where they came from and create a state there so that SA would once again be free of black people.

[JK8]

JK8, your memory seems to be very short.... WHITES faught Apartheid too!!!! even Afrikaans whites.. it was not an exclusive 'BLACK' fight.

Apartheid = the exclusion of all non whites.

[JK8]

You betray your age.:D
Bophutatswana. One of the wonderful homelands. The idea was to send people back to where they came from and create a state there so that SA would once again be free of black people.

Ooh taught it was an acronym for something.:o

[RichardP]

Apartheid = the exclusion of all non whites.

Correct... implemented by a GOVERNMENT... not everyone supports the government. You , out of all people know that.
You go tell the White Americans that imposed sanction on SA that "Your Efforts are welcome, but you are white, and HENCE, supported Apartheid" .. you go tell all the foreign nationals that got YOUR country freed from Apartheid that - "oops, being white is the wrong answer, you are the weakest link... bye bye"

You are a very narrow minded person to think that "ALL" whites supported apartheid and were passive players in the transformation.

Yes, I went to school during the Apartheid years... what option did I have? Go to School, or be arrested and sent to BoysTown ? (yes, truancy was illegal during thise years)

Sorry.. a bit OT.

Back to BEE/AA

[Tanarri]

If you benefitted from apartheid any way or form you have had some part to play in it.


Everyone should be paying for apartheid in this country then.

Umm yeah, but I see you have the same attitude as some ministers we have. By your logic AA will be intensified and be a permanent racist endeavour. Good luck with that.

[JK8]

Correct... implemented by a GOVERNMENT... not everyone supports the government. You , out of all people know that.
You go tell the White Americans that imposed sanction on SA that "Your Efforts are welcome, but you are white, and HENCE, supported Apartheid" .. you go tell all the foreign nationals that got YOUR country freed from Apartheid that - "oops, being white is the wrong answer, you are the weakest link... bye bye"

You are a very narrow minded person to think that "ALL" whites supported apartheid and were passive players in the transformation

Sorry.. a bit OT.

Back to BEE/AA

Ofcourse there were some more sensible people, like Beyers Naude (I hope thats the right name) and others that actively took part in the struggles of freedom. BUt the majority was Pro apartheid, and some that just went with the flow.

[JK8]

Everyone should be paying for apartheid in this country then.

Umm yeah, but I see you have the same attitude as some ministers we have. By your logic AA will be intensified and be a permanent racist endeavour. Good luck with that.

It will only stop when the playing fields are level!

[RichardP]

Ofcourse there were some more sensible people, like Beyers Naude (I hope thats the right name) and others that actively took part in the struggles of freedom. BUt the majority was Pro apartheid, and some that just went with the flow.

No, thats where I think you missed the plot... ..if you didnt go with the flow - you went missing... There was no White Democracy in the Apartheid years either!

AA as an ideology is OK , but humans will take advantage of a situation and milk it for all its worth.

[protzkrog]

It will only stop when the playing fields are level!

and what is the best way to get them level ?
by appointing people with their skin colour as only criterium ?

i've always wondererd what happens to a person that for instance has a black grandparent...will he be advantaged by AA or not ?

where does one draw the line ?

[Roo!]

It will only stop when the playing fields are level!

It's amazing how the majority believe that to level the playing field you have to hold the others back. How about standing up and making things better for yourselves? How about rising the playing field instead of dropping it? Why is it that in order to have things better for one group another must suffer? Surely that is what a global village is about, equal opportunities for all?

[RichardP]

Roo, your signature says it all


__________________
Welcome to the Animal Farm!!!

Some are just more Equal than others

[Roo!]

Roo, your signature says it all



Some are just more Equal than others

Exactly!!!

[JK8]

and what is the best way to get them level ?
by appointing people with their skin colour as only criterium ?

i've always wondererd what happens to a person that for instance has a black grandparent...will he be advantaged by AA or not ?

where does one draw the line ?

They fall under coloured I think. The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.


It's amazing how the majority believe that to level the playing field you have to hold the others back. How about standing up and making things better for yourselves? How about rising the playing field instead of dropping it? Why is it that in order to have things better for one group another must suffer? Surely that is what a global village is about, equal opportunities for all?

I think you need to start with getting the teams right, equal, let the skills develop then start raising the bar!!

The other group is not suffering as you put it, its a little molehill they have to encounter now and again, chances are if they good enough they will find something!

[xtermin8or]

What? Accept it could be worse? How is it acceptable to move from a situation where certain groups were treated as second class citizens to a situation where a different group are now treated that way?

Once again I am led to believe that we are living in different countries, tell me which group is being treated as a second class citizen, and how ?

[Roo!]

I think you need to start with getting the teams right, equal, let the skills develop then start raising the bar!!

The other group is not suffering as you put it, its a little molehill they have to encounter now and again, chances are if they good enough they will find something!

Is not suffering???!!!!

Our children have absolutely no prospects for work unless we create it for them (but don't get too big as you'll be told who you must hire)!!!

We've forced to carry lazy, incapable people in order to have them promoted as our managers!!!

The infrastructure that was working is falling to pieces!!!!

There are no qualified tradesman to fill the voids left by people fleeing for there lives and livelihoods!!!

How are we NOT suffering???!!!

You are so blind that if the truth was standing right in front of you you'd still not know it was there!!!

[protzkrog]

They fall under coloured I think. The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.

and if the white guy comes from a poor PTA West family and the black guy from a rich black family (eg. one that can afford R4 mil of jewelry) what will be the case ?

oh ja, and it's 'similar'

[nitro53]

Hey i am oppressed ! I am using vodafone live ! How you remove the firmware ? I am at a disadvantage.i got no mp3 player.lol

[MyDraadloos]

It will only stop when the playing fields are level!

Hell ........ I'm not gonna have this discussion with a PFY still sucking on his mamma'a tit.

See ya !

[nthdimension]

There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.

[Syndyre]

Once again I am led to believe that we are living in different countries, tell me which group is being treated as a second class citizen, and how ?

Not different countries, just different perceptions. :D Well in my opinion when you have a certain group of your population that, while being full SA citizens is not able to qualify for government contracts on their own, is forced to hire people that may not be as competent as their first choice and is told that discrimination against them is allowed "as long as it is fair" that group is being treated as second class citizens. I'm not saying its as bad as it was under Apartheid, but the fact remains that situation exists.

[Syndyre]

There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.

Aside from whether this is right or wrong, realistically you're never going to get 2 candidates that are exactly equal, someone will always be at least marginally better, whatever colour or gender they are. Why should young white males be penalised for what happened historically anyway?

[noxibox]

CREATE prosperous societies even after $580 billion is thrown their way
It was not thrown their way. It was loaned and those loans came with strings attached. Those were requirements that they cripple their economies and any chance of competing against the people who loaned them the money.

Imagine the bank offering you a business loan, but requiring that you operate your business in an unprofitable manner. They claim to know what they're doing, and you need that money to get your business running. Turns out those 'experts' were clueless, so now you're left with a failed business and massive debt you can never repay.

Africa has in fact managed to repay huge amounts of money, but paying back those loans is crippling. They didn't wipe out their economies and destabilise their countries on their own. Much more robust economies suffered damage that nearly destroyed them because they followed the instructions of the IMF and World Bank. The former head of one of those organisations eventually admitted that their economic policies were worthless.

[CeeBee]

[QUOTE=JK8;918831]The skin colour is not the only criteria!! You missing the point!! If 2 candidates have simalar qualifications both from different races, the former oppressed person will get the job.

hmmm... :confused: similar qual, better qual, whateva.
what most folks are complaining about BEE/AA, as it is implimented, is that the skills don't matter... doesnt matta if the other dude's got similar or better (or even any) skills, the job is only available to the 'former oppressed person' the other dude isnt even elligible for the job....
In many cases a skilled worker, with many years experience in his job, is just replaced by an AA character, how does this new guy have anywhere close to same level of skills?
Pretty soon we're gonna have workers who were born after '94, and can't really claim to be "former oppressed" .... how long are we gonna ride that excuse?

[JK8]

and if the white guy comes from a poor PTA West family and the black guy from a rich black family (eg. one that can afford R4 mil of jewelry) what will be the case ?

oh ja, and it's 'similar'

Well if you were up against a rich suave white guy you still wont get the job! Then you can blame your parents and the world.

[Paul_S]

It was not thrown their way. It was loaned and those loans came with strings attached. Those were requirements that they cripple their economies and any chance of competing against the people who loaned them the money.

Loans are optional - no one can force you to take a loan.
Blaming everything on the IMF and World Bank is a pathetic excuse - if you don't like the strings or don't agree with their policies then you don't take the loan.

[nthdimension]

Aside from whether this is right or wrong, realistically you're never going to get 2 candidates that are exactly equal, someone will always be at least marginally better, whatever colour or gender they are. Why should young white males be penalised for what happened historically anyway?
I often have two or even three people that are so close I have to make a judgement call. Somebody has to be disappointed. Why should I favour a white male? Back when I started working there would have been no point in a black man applying for the same job, even if he were better qualified. And a woman, forget it.

On the other hand I simply don't know a single white male who has struggled to find work due to affirmative action. Clearly some people are having trouble.

[JK8]

There is nothing wrong with affirmative action. There is a problem with quotas. Given two equal candidates, one a white male, another who is not, I will hire the one who is not a white male. White men had all the best jobs to themselves, everywhere, not just in South Africa. I only object to being forced to hire someone less qualified to fill a quota.

They acting like they dont stand a chance!
I think it psychological, just a negative way of looking at things.

[nthdimension]

Loans are optional - no one can force you to take a loan.
Blaming everything on the IMF and World Bank is a pathetic excuse - if you don't like the strings or don't agree with their policies then you don't take the loan.
That is a truly stupid argument.

[protzkrog]

Pretty soon we're gonna have workers who were born after '94, and can't really claim to be "former oppressed" .... how long are we gonna ride that excuse?

they are 13 now...so 6 years before they enter the job market...
ag but the ANC will still blame it on apartheid...because their parents "suffered" under apartheid and all that...

they aren't going to let go of their perfect scapegoat for everyting

[Skeptik]

and what is the best way to get them level ?
by appointing people with their skin colour as only criterium ?

i've always wondererd what happens to a person that for instance has a black grandparent...will he be advantaged by AA or not ?

where does one draw the line ?
The irony is that the ANC has to use old Apartheid racial classification methods to find out who to empower. If you were in the struggle movement, you automatically qualify.

[JK8]

they are 13 now...so 6 years before they enter the job market...
ag but the ANC will still blame it on apartheid...because their parents "suffered" under apartheid and all that...

they aren't going to let go of their perfect scapegoat for everyting

In 6 years your argument might be stronger and maybe more valid.

[protzkrog]

The irony is that the ANC has to use old Apartheid racial classification methods to find out who to empower. If you were in the struggle movement, you automatically qualify.

lol ja, with what law do they classify you as black, white, indian, etc ?

there is no such law anymore ?

[noxibox]

Loans are optional - no one can force you to take a loan.
Blaming everything on the IMF and World Bank is a pathetic excuse - if you don't like the strings or don't agree with their policies then you don't take the loan.
It is not an excuse, it is a simple fact. Perhaps lost on people who are apologists for the IMF and World Bank. You can definitely blame them for imposing faulty economic policies. The loans are not the issue, it is the morons at the IMF and World Bank. They continued to impose those policies even though they failed everywhere.

If I borrowed money from a bank to start a business and they forced me to adopt methods that failed, and turned out to be known to be faulty, I'd hunt down the scum responsible and kill them. If I have to follow their methods, then they must take responsibility if it fails.

It was never, ever a matter of saying we don't like these strings.

[protzkrog]

In 6 years your argument might be stronger and maybe more valid.

white kids that finished matric in 2006 were born in 1989, thus they were 5 in 1994...HOW did they contribute to apartheid ? why are they to blame ?

[Syndyre]

I often have two or even three people that are so close I have to make a judgement call. Somebody has to be disappointed. Why should I favour a white male? Back when I started working there would have been no point in a black man applying for the same job, even if he were better qualified. And a woman, forget it.

On the other hand I simply don't know a single white male who has struggled to find work due to affirmative action. Clearly some people are having trouble.

I never said you should favour the white male, at least not on the basis of his race or gender. Look at the other factors and make your judgement on those, if it happens to pick the white guy then fine, if you don't then thats fine too because at least the process was fair.

[Syndyre]

lol ja, with what law do they classify you as black, white, indian, etc ?

there is no such law anymore ?

There's not, ultimately if they carry on along the path they're on they're going to have to create some apartheid-esque law though. If I was to tick the "black" box how can they legally say I'm not if the definition isn't legally defined? Eventually there's going to be a case that's going to force them to act one way or the other.

[Syndyre]

It is not an excuse, it is a simple fact. Perhaps lost on people who are apologists for the IMF and World Bank. You can definitely blame them for imposing faulty economic policies. The loans are not the issue, it is the morons at the IMF and World Bank. They continued to impose those policies even though they failed everywhere.

If I borrowed money from a bank to start a business and they forced me to adopt methods that failed, and turned out to be known to be faulty, I'd hunt down the scum responsible and kill them. If I have to follow their methods, then they must take responsibility if it fails.

It was never, ever a matter of saying we don't like these strings.

The point is though that if they didn't accept the loans they wouldn't have had to accept the economic policies.

[xtermin8or]

The Freedom Charter drawn up by the people in Kliptown in 1955, under the banner of the ANC, states that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people. This has been the guiding principle of the ANC, since it took control of the country in 1994.

The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses. The Government would have not only been justified, but supported in trying members of Government, it's officials, and members of Police and the Army for human rights abuses.

The world would have applauded as PW Botha, Adriaan Vlok, and Pik Botha were led off to jail. The world would have justified the seizing of assets and money of large corporations to government coffers.

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

But this is not what happened, as early as 1990, the ANC and the Government signed the Pretoria Minute, effectively ending the Armed Struggle


In the interest of moving as speedily as possible towards a negotiated peaceful political
settlement and in the context of the agreements reached, the ANC announced that it was
now suspending all armed actions with immediate effect. As a result of this, no further
armed actions and related activities by the ANC and its military wing Umkhonto we
Sizwe will take place. It was agreed that a working group will be established to resolve
all outstanding questions arising out of this decision to report by 15 September 1990.
Both sides once more committed themselves to do everything in their power to bring
about a peaceful solution as quickly as possible.

Pretoria Minute (http://www.incore.ulst.ac.uk/services/cds/agreements/pdf/sa5.pdf)

In 1993, Chris Hani, was killed, and it was feared that violence could erupt at any moment, the masses of people would have been justified for venting their anger at the white supremecists who cold bloodedly killed a hero of the people. But the ANC, through Nelson Mandela, called for and achieved calm


Chris Hani championed the cause of peace, trudging to every corner Of South Africa calling for a spirit of tolerance among all our people.

We are a nation in mourning. Our pain and anger is real. Yet we must not permit ourselves to be provoked by those who seek to deny us the very freedom Chris Hani gave his life for.

Let us respond with dignity and in a disciplined fashion.

Let us observe April 14 in dignified memorial services and in accordance with the decisions of our leadership.

The date of Comrade Chris Hani's funeral will be announced after full consultations with the family.

We shall lay to rest the mortal remains of Comrade Chris Hani in a manner befitting a hero of our people. No one will desecrate his memory by rash and irresponsible actions.

At this moment of unbounded grief for the whole country, our deepest sympathies go to Chris's wife, Limpho, the children and the rest of the family.

The ANC dips it's banner in salute to this outstanding son of Africa.

ADDRESS TO THE NATION BY ANC PRESIDENT, NELSON ROLIHLAHLA MANDELA, ON THE ASSASSINATION OF MARTIN THEMBISILE (CHRIS) HANI
(http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/1993/sp930410.html)

The course of the New South Africa, was firmly set by the launch of the TRC in 1995, headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The new Government provided that those who had committed attrocities during Apartheid would receive amnesty if they made a full disclosure as to the attrocities and proved that it was politically motivated. This amnesty in many cases also included forgiveness from the victims or their families, and while many in our country saw the TRC as a political witch-hunt, it brought South Africa through the transition period with relative political stability. The humanist approach of Mandela and Tutu brought compassion to a brutalised country. Despite the horrors revealed by the TRC, glimmers of humanity shone through and provided hope for the future.

This has been the way Government has dealt with the issue of reconcilliation and the extremely mature way the oppression of the past has been dealt with.

While, politically, democracy had been attained, the dream of a South Africa that belonged to all who live in it had only been partially realised. Non-whites had been marginalised for over forty years, and had not been part of the mainstream economy. Many were unemployed and homeless, and this was a situation that had to rectified, back in 1990, this was one of the first things Mandela said on his release from Prison


There must be an end to white monopoly on political power and a fundamental restructuring of our political and economic systems to ensure that the inequalities of apartheid are addressed, and our society thoroughly democratized.

Thus the birth of policies like Affirmative Action, the policy is in no way a punishment to the white man, but merely a means to rectify the inequalities of the past. At present the white population of the country enjoys the highest rate of employment and still owns the majority of the country's wealth


We have seen steady progress in the advancement of Black people in the economy. From owning just over 3% of the market capitalisation of the JSE in 2004, this has increased to close on to 5%; and the proportion of Blacks in top management has grown from 24% of the total to 27%. Yet we must remain concerned that these figures are still woefully low.

State of the Nation Address - 2007


The intentions of AA remains to achieve a level playing field, it is not a punishment, and indeed no white people have been punished by the implementation of AA, as the unemployment figures show. BEE has had little impact on the control of the wealth of the country.

Like the Freedom Charter, the call for calm after Hani's assasination, the TRC process, and many other programmes and actions of Government, the Government is goal driven to provide a better life for all, and like the aforementioned it is handled with maturity.

So after years nee decades of oppression, the masses of the people of this country, say you are forgiven, let us move forward together, do not take the spirit of Ubuntu as a sign of weakness

and for those who continuosly complain that the country is going down the drain, in 1990 Mandela said this


The apartheid's destruction on our subcontinent is incalculable. The fabric of family life of millions of my people has been shattered. Millions are homeless and unemployed. Our economy lies in ruins and our people are embroiled in political strife.

In 2007, President Thabo Mbeki reported


At an average of over 4,5%, the rate of growth of our economy over the past two and half years has been at its highest since we attained our democracy in 1994. Investment in the economy, by both the public and private sectors has been increasing at about 11%, with overall public sector infrastructure spending increasing by an annual average of 15,8%. Today, fixed investment as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product – at about 18,4% – is at its highest since 1991.

The number of employed people has been increasing at about half-a-million a year in the past 3 years.
While beneficiaries of social grants numbered about 8 million in 2004, today 11 million poor South Africans have access to these grants. It is encouraging that the rates of increase in uptake have, in the recent period, been within manageable ranges, as the programmes reach maturity. This will ensure sustainability, and employment of more government resources to provide economic services to create more jobs and business opportunities.

Access to electricity, water and sanitation has improved. By 2005, South Africa had already achieved the Millennium Development Goal in respect of basic water supply, with improvement of access from 59% in 1994 to 83% in 2006. According to the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), South Africa is one of the few countries that spend less on military budgets than on water and sanitation. In the words of the UNDP Human Development Report of 2006:

“… South Africa has demonstrated how the human right to water can serve as a mechanism for empowerment and a guide to policy… Rights-based water reform has enabled it to expand access and overcome the legacy of racial inequality inherited from apartheid, partly through rights-based entitlements”. (pp62/63)

There will be many who will try to tell you otherwise, for their own personal political gain, but this country is moving forward with everyone who lives in it

[protzkrog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_Registration_Act


The Population Registration Act of 1950 required that each inhabitant of South Africa be classified and registered in accordance with their racial characteristics as part of the system of apartheid [1] [2] [3]. Social rights, political rights, educational opportunities, and economic status were largely determined by which group an individual belonged to.

There were three basic racial classifications under the law: Black, White and Coloured (Mixed). Indian (that is, South Asians from the former British India) was later added as a separate classification as they were seen as having "no historical right to the country".

An Office for Race Classification was set up to overview the classification process. Classification into groups was carried out using criteria such as outer appearance, general acceptance and social standing. For example, it defined a "white person" as one who "in appearance is obviously a white person who is generally not accepted as a Coloured person; or is generally accepted as a white person and is not in appearance obviously a white person." Due to the fact that some aspects of the profile were of a social nature, reclassifications were not uncommon, and a board was established to conduct that process.

This law worked in tandem with other laws passed as part of the apartheid system. Under the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act of 1949, marrying a person of a different race was illegal. With the enactment of the Immorality Amendment Act (Immorality Act) of 1957, it also became a crime to display intent or interest in conducting a relationship with a member of a different race.

The South African Parliament repealed the act on June 17, 1991.

so if I choose to be a African, I am a African "finish en klaar"

[Roo!]

Stop all these history lessons, it's not going to help me find new a job!!!!!!!!!

[protzkrog]

Roo!, you are an African, there is no law to classify you into a race group...

[Roo!]

Roo!, you are an African, there is no law to classify you into a race group...

Afraid note, my English passport (by place of birth not bloodline) states that I'm not. So I guess I'm really screwed :rolleyes:

[Syndyre]

The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses. The Government would have not only been justified, but supported in trying members of Government, it's officials, and members of Police and the Army for human rights abuses.

The world would have applauded as PW Botha, Adriaan Vlok, and Pik Botha were led off to jail. The world would have justified the seizing of assets and money of large corporations to government coffers.

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past


It was a NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT, do you really think anybody in the NP government would have agreed to this? Its quite scary what you think would have been justified though.

[protzkrog]

Afraid note, my English passport (by place of birth not bloodline) states that I'm not. So I guess I'm really screwed :rolleyes:

just say "eish" and everything will be OK...

[Roo!]

just say "eish" and everything will be OK...

Now that I can do ...

and 'I am not aware" :D

[Syndyre]

They acting like they dont stand a chance!
I think it psychological, just a negative way of looking at things.

How would you feel if somebody told you during Apartheid you were just looking at things negatively?

[kilo39]

in response to xtermin8or: maybe we should have deployed those nukes in soweto after all


The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses. The Government would have not only been justified, but supported in trying members of Government, it's officials, and members of Police and the Army for human rights abuses.

[protzkrog]

How would you feel if somebody told you during Apartheid you were just looking at things negatively?

HAHAHHAHAHA, good one, lololol

[kilo39]

7 ANC ministers denied amnesty Wednesday, April 7, 1999 (http://www.dispatch.co.za/1999/04/07/southafrica/MINISTER.HTM)
JOHANNESBURG -- The Truth and Reconciliation Committee announced yesterday it had refused amnesty to 79 African National Congress members, including seven ministers and three deputy ministers in the current government.

Among those refused amnesty were Environmental Affairs and Tourism Minister Pallo Jordan, Finance Minister Trevor Manuel, Housing Minister Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele, Justice Minister Dullah Omar, Minerals and Energy Minister Penuell Maduna, Public Service Minister Zola Skweyiya and Welfare and Population Development Minister Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi.

The deputy ministers refused amnesty were Joe Nhlanhla (Intelligence Service), Manto Tshabalala-Msimang (Justice) and Essop Pahad (Office of the Deputy President).

[JK8]

How would you feel if somebody told you during Apartheid you were just looking at things negatively?

Id put on my running shoes and take them to a park where some guys are playing rugby.

[xtermin8or]

7 ANC ministers denied amnesty Wednesday, April 7, 1999 (http://www.dispatch.co.za/1999/04/07/southafrica/MINISTER.HTM)
JOHANNESBURG -- The Truth and Reconciliation Committee announced yesterday it had refused amnesty to 79 African National Congress members, including seven ministers and three deputy ministers in the current government.

Among those refused amnesty were Environmental Affairs and Tourism Minister Pallo Jordan, Finance Minister Trevor Manuel, Housing Minister Sankie Mthembi-Mahanyele, Justice Minister Dullah Omar, Minerals and Energy Minister Penuell Maduna, Public Service Minister Zola Skweyiya and Welfare and Population Development Minister Geraldine Fraser-Moleketi.

The deputy ministers refused amnesty were Joe Nhlanhla (Intelligence Service), Manto Tshabalala-Msimang (Justice) and Essop Pahad (Office of the Deputy President).

For purposes of accuracy, it would be prudent to include the reasons it was denied


the 79 had applied for amnesty on the basis that they were ''collectively'' responsible for policy decisions that led to human rights violations by ANC cadres.

''The committee foundan act, omission or offence must be the subject matter of an application, and in this instance no such act, omission or offence had been disclosed.

''Having considered theapplicants, the committee finds that the applications similarly do not comply with the requirement of the act and therefore fail,'' the committee said.

At least the members of the ANC, tried to take responsibility for their part in making policy, while the leaders of the Apartheid Government refused to come clean

[Skeptik]

The Freedom Charter drawn up by the people in Kliptown in 1955, under the banner of the ANC, states that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people. This has been the guiding principle of the ANC, since it took control of the country in 1994.

Firstly, the Freedom Charter is not law. It never has been and indeed WILL NEVER BE in our democracy. This country operates via a constitution and by parliament, not by the ANC.

If the country belongs to all who live in it, why do the ANC treat young white people as they they don't belong in it?



The masses of people in this country would have been justified in seizing white owned farms, taking over white businesses and occupying white houses. The Government would have not only been justified, but supported in trying members of Government, it's officials, and members of Police and the Army for human rights abuses.

The world would have applauded as PW Botha, Adriaan Vlok, and Pik Botha were led off to jail. The world would have justified the seizing of assets and money of large corporations to government coffers.

Even violence against whites could easily have been discarded as our people venting their frustrations against the oppressors of the past.

But this is not what happened, as early as 1990, the ANC and the Government signed the Pretoria Minute, effectively ending the Armed Struggle

They didn't sieze white farms and businesses because they knew they COULD NOT. At the time of the negotiated settlement, the ANC was in poor shape. Their bases had been moved so far North that their operations were ineffective. We could argue that they had to negotiate.

The world would not have been impressed at overt military action anyway. They would probably have sent their own soldiers in to keep the peace.



In 1993, Chris Hani, was killed, and it was feared that violence could erupt at any moment, the masses of people would have been justified for venting their anger at the white supremecists who cold bloodedly killed a hero of the people. But the ANC, through Nelson Mandela, called for and achieved calm

Nobody knows who sponsored Chris Hani's death. In fact, some speculate that it was not the right-wing, but a faction within the struggle itself. This probably explains why no full enquiry has been made.



The course of the New South Africa, was firmly set by the launch of the TRC in 1995, headed by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The new Government provided that those who had committed attrocities during Apartheid would receive amnesty if they made a full disclosure as to the attrocities and proved that it was politically motivated. This amnesty in many cases also included forgiveness from the victims or their families, and while many in our country saw the TRC as a political witch-hunt, it brought South Africa through the transition period with relative political stability. The humanist approach of Mandela and Tutu brought compassion to a brutalised country. Despite the horrors revealed by the TRC, glimmers of humanity shone through and provided hope for the future.

This has been the way Government has dealt with the issue of reconcilliation and the extremely mature way the oppression of the past has been dealt with.

The TRC dealt mainly with crimes committed by the apartheid State. Many struggle figures were exonerated or just not called. In fact Thabo Mbeki was never prosecuted for his part.



While, politically, democracy had been attained, the dream of a South Africa that belonged to all who live in it had only been partially realised. Non-whites had been marginalised for over forty years, and had not been part of the mainstream economy. Many were unemployed and homeless, and this was a situation that had to rectified, back in 1990, this was one of the first things Mandela said on his release from Prison

40 Years, and not 400 years then??



State of the Nation Address - 2007
The intentions of AA remains to achieve a level playing field, it is not a punishment, and indeed no white people have been punished by the implementation of AA, as the unemployment figures show. BEE has had little impact on the control of the wealth of the country.

So a young person who was not old enough to even remember apartheid and who now cannot follow the profession of his dreams is not being punished then? Bull!

[McSack]

Apologies upfront... just had to post this here...
(see the frenchie tourist attack thread)

:D



Condition black is sometimes blah blah blah. It's also sometimes used to describe the panicked reactions of someone who has been jolted out of condition white without passing through any of the others.

[McSack]

BEE has had little impact on the control of the wealth of the country.

AHAHAAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAAH!!!!

tell that to anyone who wants to get involved in a multi-million rand project

[kilo39]

For purposes of accuracy, it would be prudent to include the reasons it was denied
-
At least the members of the ANC, tried to take responsibility for their part in making policy, while the leaders of the Apartheid Government refused to come clean

Ja, no one came forward from the apartheid government: please.

Truth report accuses leading figures (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/203803.stm)
Thursday, October 29, 1998
The long-awaited report by South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission into abuses under apartheid has accused leading figures from across the political spectrum of human rights violations. Mr Botha, who was prime minister from 1979 to 1984, and president until 1989, was fined earlier this year after refusing to testify before the commission. The report holds him accountable for killings during his time in office, a period when anti-apartheid resistance was met with increasingly brutal suppression.

Mr Buthelezi is held responsible for killings carried out by members of his Inkatha Freedom Party. The Zulu nationalist grouping was revealed in 1992 to have collaborated in secret police activity, including mass killings, in the KwaZulu-Natal region.

Ms Madikizela-Mandela, former wife of the president, is judged by the report to have been implicated in murders, and was said to have allowed her home to be used as a place for assault and mutilation. She has already been convicted of the kidnapping of young activist Stompie Sepei in the late 1980s. Her personal bodyguards have been linked to killings and abductions.

[xtermin8or]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post

[neio]

It's being tried, a small backward town, called Orania

Except for the fact that the people in Orania looks inward for income generation, they arent globally focused. :p

[Skeptik]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this post
You seem to gloss over the replies a lot. I guess you can't keep up with all the people proving u wrong and shooting you down?:D

[xtermin8or]

Firstly, the Freedom Charter is not law. It never has been and indeed WILL NEVER BE in our democracy. This country operates via a constitution and by parliament, not by the ANC.

The preamble to the constitution contains those self-same words, that were quoted, in any event it was not argued that it was law, but that it is the attitude of the ANC


If the country belongs to all who live in it, why do the ANC treat young white people as they they don't belong in it?

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employed


They didn't sieze white farms and businesses because they knew they COULD NOT. At the time of the negotiated settlement, the ANC was in poor shape. Their bases had been moved so far North that their operations were ineffective. We could argue that they had to negotiate.

Ok, what have you been smoking, I want some, if this were the case, why did the NP negotiate themselves out of power. MK was at the height of it's power, the NP Government was bankrupt and could not afford a long protracted war with the ANC, Mandela saw the opportunity, and out of his jail cell called for negotiations.


The world would not have been impressed at overt military action anyway. They would probably have sent their own soldiers in to keep the peace.

But who would they have backed - I will leave that up to speculation - BTW - if there is a war you don't send in peacekeepers you send it peacemakers


Nobody knows who sponsored Chris Hani's death. In fact, some speculate that it was not the right-wing, but a faction within the struggle itself. This probably explains why no full enquiry has been made.

Once again you miss the point, the point was that violence could have erupted at any time, if you were near Soweto at the time, you could literally feel the tension. The point was that the ANC very maturely called on people to be calm


The TRC dealt mainly with crimes committed by the apartheid State. Many struggle figures were exonerated or just not called. In fact Thabo Mbeki was never prosecuted for his part.

answered by Kilo's posts - as for Thabo Mbeki - AFAIK - he spent time in Lusaka - as OR Tambo's speechwriter and aide, and England where he studied economics - so as there may have been no actual incident that he took part in he could not apply for amnesty - he did ask the commission to try to find his son though.



So a young person who was not old enough to even remember apartheid and who now cannot follow the profession of his dreams is not being punished then? Bull!

answered above - there is nothing stopping him from following the profession of his/her dreams

[kilo39]

Kilo - I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this postActually exterm I'm not trying to make any point. I'm simply saying your racist rhetoric (threats) about what could have happened and who was guilty and by how much are a bunch of cr#p and this is what we are dealing with daily.

Personally I am sick of the endless political theorizing and the endless politicising of every single tiny issue (at heart usually your failure to deliver, or your racist, corrupt policies.) I cannot see how swapping one set of racist legislation for another is any different. You lot are as bad as them.

And who do we have to thank for this endless political diatribe, rant. YOU for introducing laws we fought so hard to eliminate.

But here they are back again. Fully justified as usual.

Sickening. Sick of it. Sick of having to think it or deal with it. Just fix it and STFU.

[xtermin8or]

Actually exterm I'm not trying to make any point. I'm simply saying your racist rhetoric (threats) about what could have happened and who was guilty and by how much are a bunch of cr#p and this is what we are dealing with daily.

Personally I am sick of the endless political theorizing and the endless politicising of every single tiny issue (at heart usually your failure to deliver, or your racist, corrupt policies.) I cannot see how swapping one set of racist legislation for another is any different. You lot are as bad as them.

And who do we have to thank for this endless political diatribe, rant. YOU for introducing laws we fought so hard to eliminate.

But here they are back again. Fully justified as usual.

Sickening. Sick of it. Sick of having to think it or deal with it. Just fix it and STFU.

I still fail to see how AA is a racist policy, when it clearly gives everyone a fair chance at gaining employment, simple no.

I never apportioned blame, or threatened anyone, i simply put it to you how things could have gone down in this country, and how the ANC created conditions that created a peaceful transition, to show people that their aim is to create a equitable society

[xtermin8or]

You seem to gloss over the replies a lot. I guess you can't keep up with all the people proving u wrong and shooting you down?:D

As yet, I have not been proven wrong, or shot down, you have received a reply, I await your response

[xtermin8or]

Except for the fact that the people in Orania looks inward for income generation, they arent globally focused. :p

wonder who they will do business with, probably only the Dutch, who might understand a little of what they are saying :D :D :D

[Skeptik]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

[blonde one]

IMO AA has become like reverse breaststroke. It reminds me of the words to a song by Queen 'I want it all, and I want it now....'

[JK8]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

Its directed to X but id also like to reply.

We all would like to get the jobs we "like" and think we should get!
As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.

[JK8]

IMO AA has become like reverse breaststroke. It reminds me of the words to a song by Queen 'I want it all, and I want it now....'

Go feed your dog, you just making up things and trying to over over exaggerate things.

[xtermin8or]

@extermin8tor

Both sides negotiated because at that time it was in BOTH their interests. You talk as if the ANC and their allies could have taken power and decided not to. That is just nonsense.

I didn't say white people couldn't get jobs. I say they cannot get the jobs and positions they would like and should be able to get, were there no new AApartheid. Certain professions are closed simply because of their colour. U saying that's OK?

Why did Mbeki apply and get refused amnesty if there was nothing to apply for??

Okay, both sides negotiated, but the people on the streets could have reacted violently, in fact, we received many threats that they ( ANC members ) are comming to take our house, but the leadership of the ANC stepped in and stopped it, that is what my point was.

Now, we get to the heart of the problem, should there still be job reservation for whites, so they get the jobs they want, I put it to you, that it is a minority of people who are actually in jobs they dreamt of. But AA does not stop white people from getting those jobs, that is a fallacy, come on, you are an educated person, look around you, there is and always will be place for white people in this country, do yourself a favour and look at the legislation and think about it carefully, and you will see that it is actually a win-win situation for everyone

Mbeki applied as part of a group seeking blanket amnesty, as they were collabaratively taking responsibility for actions that may have taken part due to their policy decisions - like at a meeting they might have said, we must intensify the armed struggle, the Commandants then took decisions as to the exact details of the operation, so they applied to take responsibility for those decisions, but as such they could not list any specifics, and as no human rights violation had taken place, no amnesty could be granted

[McSack]

As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.


this is why we have the current shortage of engineers in SA. a similar situation exist with programmers, maths teachers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses... should I go on?

But so what?... we can always get these skills imported at discounted cost from China and India.

Bit of a short sighted policy if you ask me

:rolleyes:

[xtermin8or]

this is why we have the current shortage of engineers in SA. a similar situation exist with programmers, maths teachers, plumbers, electricians, doctors, nurses... should I go on?

But so what?... we can always get these skills imported at discounted cost from China and India.

Bit of a short sighted policy if you ask me

:rolleyes:

That is because there is a shortage of these people in the country, show me where there are people who have these skills sitting without a job

[Abe]

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employedThe company I last worked for had a policy of no people being hired who are not of colour. Full stop. In addition to this, when I was looking for a job, I could not get one because of my colour. I went for two interviews and on both occasions, the positions were awarded to AA candidates. This was despite the fact that only these 2, out of the 15 odd positions that I looked at in that field, were the only non AA positions. Have a look at any employment company and just see how many AA positions there are compared to non-AA.

AA positions outnumber non-AA positions 10 to 1 and the so called "1" also gives preference to AA candidates.

Oh, and before you start saying that the problem is with my capabilities, I have secured a job when going for an interview on 4 occasions out of 6 before this last round of interviews.

What you are neglecting is the fact that there are a finite number of jobs. Hostorically most of these jobs were awarded to white people, this country is not creating jobs to the tune of a million per year. The percentages that companies need to have are quite high which puts pressure on them to replace white staff with black staff. That means that the number of white people employed will have to decrease through AA. Obviously there will still be some jobs for white males, but they are becoming more and more difficult to find. Can you imagine how many whites would not have jobs had 1 million of them not left South Africa.

[McSack]

I must say i agree with @xtermin8or though. I'm white, tight and over 35 ... and I love AA /EE. It keeps me in demand and well paid. My clients have plenty IT "professionals" sitting around unable to get the job done becasue they don' have the necessary skills / experience. So they pay me and my colleagues a whack to help them out.

The problem with companies being forced to get EE stats up to scratch is that they don't really have much of a choice. So what happens is they are forced to employ people just to satisfy certain charters. Hell there's no argument that the ideal of employing a black person over a similarly qualified white person is the "right thing to do", the problem is that the EE experience pool is just not that big right now, so companies are forced to settle for "potential". In many cases a lower qulaified and experienced black candidate is selected over a higher qualified white candidate with more experience. In some cases white candidates are not even considered, irrespective of their skills.

Skills and experience are in demand no matter what your skin color. Government is just shooting themselves in the foot by not managing the proper implementation of EE

[CeeBee]

come on X, are you really telling us u don't believe its happening that AA in many cases prevents white folk from getting a certain job? (not talking jobs in general)
I have seen it many times, a certain job is for AA only, so whites can't even apply.
So, especially in skilled positions, where there is a shortage of these types of people, especially of good black persons, the company can't employ a white dude, and as such has to go without the skill.
There are many companies, where the services, of the company has gone backwards, because they can't employ a good skilled (available) white guy, and there are simply no black guys who apply for the job.
AA has its good points too, in helping to get more blacks employed, but the implimentation of it can in many cases hinder employment too much, and be a negative thing... that is what most people have against it.
When we get to a point where there are enough people of all races to choose from, then it will be much better, but for now in many cases the companies, economy, unemployment get screwed over with a policy that says, either AA or nothing... there's just no denying that

[McSack]

That is because there is a shortage of these people in the country, show me where there are people who have these skills sitting without a job

Agreed, but why is there a shortage of these people in SA? And if there is a shortage then surely you don't want to create more of a shortage by discourageing youngsters from entering the market by closing the career to certain race groups

[xtermin8or]

Agreed, but why is there a shortage of these people in SA? And if there is a shortage then surely you don't want to create more of a shortage by discourageing youngsters from entering the market by closing the career to certain race groups

simply because, the policies of Apartheid kept, non-whites out of fields like engineering, there is your shortage, the economic turnaround in the country, has led to a need for more skilled people, so if there are no skills, companies have to go elsewhere. I work in a company where an AA position was advertised and no suitable candidate could be found from a designated group ( the person had to be fluent in Afrikaans ) so a white guy was hired.

Since there is a quota system in place in most industries, there is a percentage of every sector of the workforce which must be non-white, meaning there is a percentage that may be white, and since the white population is a minority, they will be able to find jobs.

As I have stated before, there is no worrying unemployment rate among whites, there is however among blacks, and so the discrimination of AA and the punishment being meted out by AA is merely a perception

[Syndyre]

Id put on my running shoes and take them to a park where some guys are playing rugby.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Syndyre]

For purposes of accuracy, it would be prudent to include the reasons it was denied



At least the members of the ANC, tried to take responsibility for their part in making policy, while the leaders of the Apartheid Government refused to come clean

If it was denied why were they never prosecuted? Was prosecution even considered?

[Syndyre]

They have never done that, AA, gives preference suitably qualified members of designated groups, a common perception is that AA means that no white person can get work in this country, now that is absolute hogwash, if the quota system is anything to go by, then there is clearly still place for whites as only a certain percentage of blacks need to be employed

You can't deny it makes it significantly harder for whites to get a job compared to "designated groups" though.

[Syndyre]

I still fail to see how AA is a racist policy, when it clearly gives everyone a fair chance at gaining employment, simple no.


Let me put it simply:

A POLICY THAT IS BASED ON RACE IS RACIST. :rolleyes:

[blonde one]

Go feed your dog, you just making up things and trying to over over exaggerate things.

I'll tell you what, when you have worked your butt off to form your own business, and I'm talking a legal registered business here, not some back street curry den, only to see your business deteriorate through being forced to appoint AA employees who are too darn lazy to work then come and tell me I'm 'trying to over over exaggerate things'.

[Syndyre]

Its directed to X but id also like to reply.

We all would like to get the jobs we "like" and think we should get!
As for professions that are closed, I think its ok for now, certain careers like engineering need to be accessed by non whites.

Why are the 2 options mutually exclusive? Why not open up the professions for everybody?