God Without Ethics

[Pr⊕phet]

Ethics Without God or God Without Ethics



It's standard operating procedure for a Christian apologist to point out that all ethics and morals come from God. It is, so they claim, therefore impossible for the Atheist to be a moral person. Many Atheists counter this argument by pointing out that as a matter of fact they are ethical persons and that they know the difference between right and wrong.

"In fact," says the Atheist, "it is the Christian who admits that the difference between right and wrong is unclear; all the Christian knows is what is sin according to God and what is not sin."

The Atheist continues: "What a pity that the only reason you, a Christian, do not steal is because your god threatened you with horrible punishment if you do. I'm sorry you don't know that stealing is wrong. It causes innocent people to suffer and the inflicting of needless pain is the worst of all crimes."

But now there's a new reason to say it is impossible for morality to be based on this religious belief. I's so simple that some will wonder why something so obvious is not brought more often.

Let us imagine a particular person. And just for fun let's call her Madalyn. Now Madalyn has never had religion. By this Christian definition Madalyn is without morals of any kind. Along comes a missionary and tells Madalyn all about Yahveh and Jesus. He tells bible stories that illustrate what wonderful, upright examples they set for sinful mankind. He tells about the ten commandments and how all morals come from the deity.

Here is the quandary:

How is Madalyn, whom we agree has no morals, able to judge if this deity is a moral god? We might observe that one should not worship a god unless that god is worthy of worship. Surely, one would not love a god unless that god was worthy of love.

In other words, Madalyn must first make an independent judgment based upon Madalyn's own godless moral values, that God is worthy of love and worship. Until that independent value judgment is made, Madalyn's conversion to Christianity or any other religion is to use a very old expression putting the cart before the horse.

The next time you hear that tired old claim that you can't be moral without God, just ask, "Let's assume what you say is true. Since I have no knowledge of morality, how is it possible for me to understand what you are saying?"

Another approach you might prefer is to observe, "Since you just now pointed out to me that I can have no morals without God, what standards do you suggest I use to make up my own mind that your god is a good god and aught to be my god, too?"

by Jerry Billings
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/jerethic.htm

[Mr TB]

Jerry Billings blunders in one way. According to him man can not set up a set of rules for himself to live by. Every single person person live by a set of rules because you have a concious...

Jerry Billings argument can work for people without a concious, but there are always exceptions to the rule...

[ToxicBunny]

Mr TB : please read the article, he is saying man sets up a set of rules for himself with or without your god.

and conscience has nothing to do with this...

[Mr TB]

Mr TB : please read the article, he is saying man sets up a set of rules for himself with or without your god.

and conscience has nothing to do with this...

That is where you all go wrong... your conscience "jou gewete" did not fall out of the air or evolve, it is God-given. Itis central to the discussion....:D

[texo]

You still haven't read - or understood - the article yet, have you?

[ToxicBunny]

My conscience is not god-given... its something I have picked up through experiencing life, and values instilled in me by my parents and friends and colleagues...

[Neo]

My conscience is not god-given... its something I have picked up through experiencing life, and values instilled in me by my parents and friends and colleagues...

Remember, God only takes credit for the good stuff. If you have a 'good' conscience, it's all God's doing, if not, you're a horrible little man.....

[ToxicBunny]

Ok cool.. then I'm a horrible lil man, and I take credit for everything.. I'm selfish...

[Syndyre]

Ok cool.. then I'm a horrible lil man, and I take credit for everything.. I'm selfish...

Good to see ur finally coming to terms with it. :D :D :D

:p

[PostmanPot]

Does dodo want to argue with Einstein?

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - A. Einstein

[PostmanPot]

Salaams my dear brother,

No, unfortunately I am not Muslim.

I decided not to quote your post so you can quickly delete it before the others see it and see what a fool you are :)

Cheers

[ghoti]

Interesting quote none the less!, but

PostmanPot, you are Muslim right! So you too believe in the Genesis way the world was made, right!

SO PostmanPot that makes you a pot smoking ignorant DODO! :eek:

Also, the biblical genisis is not like the muslim genisis. Infact, from what I can see you cant argue with the muslim genisis. All two lines of it. I think it says something along the lines of, "God created the world" and leaves it at that.

[phenom]

Also, the biblical genisis is not like the muslim genisis. Infact, from what I can see you cant argue with the muslim genisis. All two lines of it. I think it says something along the lines of, "God created the world" and leaves it at that.please look further!

Earth 300,000(or 70,000 depending on which part you read) years old according to Islam:

Modern scholars have criticized the bible for it's claim that the Earth was created in six days. This has been waved off as just another myth concocted by an ancient people to explain how the world was created. The Qur'an has made the same mistake regarding the amount of time needed to create the earth, as is seen in the following verse:

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38)

It is a known fact that Muhammad had contact with Jews and Christians, and much of the Qur'an is modeled after the Bible. While the Qur'an does not have the bible's claim that "on the seventh day God rested" (Genesis 2:2) it still proclaims the earth to be created in six days.

Muslims who seek to cast the Qur'an as being compatible with modern science, point out that the Qur'an also says that a day for Allah and the angels is similar to 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4). In citing this verse, Muslims try to say the Earth was completed in 300,000 ( 6 x 50,000 ) years. While it is a nice try, the reality is this still does not agree with modern science, which states that it took several billion years for the Earth to reach this stage. Billions of years passed before there were trees, or forests, or animals.

Furthermore, such claims open the Qur'an to more criticism. The verse that allegedly says a day equals 50,000 years (Qur'an 70:4) states:

"The angels ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years." This verse actually seems to be discussing the speed of travel for angels. Possibly it is saying that the angels can travel in a day, the amount of space it would take others 50,000 years to cover. My goal is not to offer alternative interpretations to this myth. However, I dispute the claim that the this verse is saying a day equals 50,000 years because such a thing contradicts other parts of the Qur'an!

A day cannot equal 50,000 years because according to the Qur'an, a day equals 1,000 human years (Qur'an 22:47 & 32:5). Furthermore, to claim that it took Allah 300,000 years to create the Earth is to insult the God of Islam, as when he creates, he says "Be!" and it is (Qur'an 2:117).http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html


Modern geologists consider the age of the Earth to be around 4.567 billion yearshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
Quran 300/70 thousand years vs. modern geologists with 4.567 billion years
Thus Muslims are DODO's (or worse)

[PostmanPot]

Thus Muslims are DODO's (or worse)

Duh :rolleyes:

[ghoti]

please look further!

Earth 300,000(or 70,000 depending on which part you read) years old according to Islam:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
Quran 300/70 thousand years vs. modern geologists with 4.567 billion years
Thus Muslims are DODO's (or worse)

Okay, so all it says it was created in 6 days? Not that God created light before he created the suns which create the light? Or does it say he created Plants before he created the sun to drive the photosynthesis?

Was that all there was? 6 days? I knew there was a very little, I did not know it was that little (or I know so little... need to read up more).

[PostmanPot]

This may be related:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=255

[ghoti]

This may be related:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=255

Its got some interesting reading. I see humans were made out of dirt by both groups. Interesting. Thanks for the link, I need to read up more this.

[Mr TB]

Remember, God only takes credit for the good stuff. If you have a 'good' conscience, it's all God's doing, if not, you're a horrible little man.....

:D ... Yes God takes credit for your conscience, but not for the horrible way you use it in decisionmaking....:D

[Mr TB]

Ok cool.. then I'm a horrible lil man, and I take credit for everything.. I'm selfish...

At least you are trying to be honest...

[ToxicBunny]

Who said anything about being honest?... I'm a sinning evil devil, I NEVER tell the truth.

[Pr⊕phet]

truth is a perception based on point of view, experiences and research ;)

[Prometheus]

Jerry Billings does blunder in a big way. Christians know very well the difference between right and wrong and why we should not steal, murder, rape, assault. On the contrary it is the atheist who believes that we are nothing but animals implying that our actions are governed by our genes. We all have a God given conscience and the ability to choose right from wrong. God would not have punished Adam and Eve for disobeying Him if they were simply acting on gene impulses. He might have had a point if this was not the case but as it stands we all know the difference between right and wrong but those moral values and ethics mean nothing if all there is to keep us from throwing them out of the window is ourselves.

Does dodo want to argue with Einstein?

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - A. Einstein
Einstein was a brilliant scientist but not much of a philosopher. I can easily refute his statement with one lizard man who advocates exterminating 90% of the population in the most horrible manner. People (scientists especially) need fear of punishment and hope of reward to keep such things from happening or else man WOULD indeed be in a poor way.


Thus Muslims are DODO's (or worse)
Duh :rolleyes:
My how tolerant and non racist of you. I'm just wondering where the idea that atheists are immoral comes from. :rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

The statement that science says earth is 4.5 billion years old is a fallacy. Science does not say anything about anything. It is scientists who say the earth is 4.5 billion years old. The fallacy of "science says..." is often used to make something seem credible when there in fact isn't agreement on the matter. Nobody knows for sure how old the earth is.

[ToxicBunny]

Actually Prom.... in reality.. god has sweet FA to do with people's morals... they pick them up from their parents, their peers and society in general... and the thing that stops us all from throwing them out the window are the legal consequences of doing wrong....

What lizard man are you talking about?... one of your religious collegeaues is actually talking of exterminating more than 70% of the human population for the stupidest of reasons... so maybe somebody needs to look at that.

[ToxicBunny]

Prom, actually we do... its plus or minus 4.5 billion years old... lots of DIFFERENT evidence points to that fact.

[Mr TB]

Prom, actually we do... its plus or minus 4.5 billion years old... lots of DIFFERENT evidence points to that fact.

Are you science ?
or
Are you a scientist?

Scientists say the earth is about 4.5 billion years but no one can tell for sure the exact age of earth, quite interesting...

[Pr⊕phet]

you still are going to use your initial judgment before you agree or become part of a religion (before you had any knowledge of that system or any system)

That part itself isn't God given but your own conscious dicession (if you are not robotized already by this time).

the first instance (if you now take the bible in account) from wrong or right was told to adam and eve thats its wrong to eat from the tree (not learn't or passed down, christian or a bible)

which they did (good and evil, wrong and right) - in that instance they acquired the yes/no to wrong and right or good and evil by themselves of one god's own creations (the tree) with out any acceptance of any religion what so ever - right ?

apart from there being no Christ, Bible and Christianity - thus adam and eve and for the rest of their generations had known without excepting the above 3 right/wrong...

...until otherwise.

[ToxicBunny]

No of course they can't tell us the EXACT age of the earth... but they can give us a rough idea, which is corroborated by many different fields of science with their OWN evidence....

and no, the 6000 or whatever figure the bible throws out, it can't be accepted until it can be verified....

[PostmanPot]

My how tolerant and non racist of you. I'm just wondering where the idea that atheists are immoral comes from. :rolleyes:

Um, no. You, Muslims and Jews are one in the same with your fairy-tale beliefs. And please don't talk about racism when we all know who the real racist bigots are.

[Prometheus]

Actually Prom.... in reality.. god has sweet FA to do with people's morals... they pick them up from their parents, their peers and society in general... and the thing that stops us all from throwing them out the window are the legal consequences of doing wrong....

What lizard man are you talking about?... one of your religious collegeaues is actually talking of exterminating more than 70% of the human population for the stupidest of reasons... so maybe somebody needs to look at that.
Your morals come from God. You did not get them from your parents because your parents didn't create them. It was all given to you by God, even Cain knew that it was wrong for him to kill Abel before there was even the ten commandments. It's not something which you simply pick up. Does the law say what would happen if you cheated on your spouse? In either case you can always escape the law but you can't escape God's judgement.

The lizard man wants to exterminate 90% so I guess he wins.

Prom, actually we do... its plus or minus 4.5 billion years old... lots of DIFFERENT evidence points to that fact.
It's not a fact so stop lying. There's also evidence saying it's only a few thousand years old. The only fact is that nobody knows.

[Prometheus]

Um, no. You, Muslims and Jews are one in the same with your fairy-tale beliefs. And please don't talk about racism when we all know who the real racist bigots are.
LOL. Now you're comparing Christians, Muslims and Jews. Just shows how much you know and that all you are capable of doing is generalising. YOU are the ones who made the remarks about people you don't even understand so remove the beam from your own eye first you rasict bigot. :rolleyes:

[Pr⊕phet]

Prometheus you little fire stealer !!!!!!!

please if yo don't mind point me to some of the articles on
It's not a fact so stop lying. There's also evidence saying it's only a few thousand years old. The only fact is that nobody knows.

[Prometheus]

Prometheus you little fire stealer !!!!!!!

please if yo don't mind point me to some of the articles on
It's not a fact so stop lying. There's also evidence saying it's only a few thousand years old. The only fact is that nobody knows.
Please provide the evidence which says conclusively that it is a fact instead. If you can't my statement is correct.

[ToxicBunny]

I am not stating it as fact....but there is evidence pointing to that conclusion...
please tell us where the evidence that its only a few thousand years old is?

[ToxicBunny]

and no.... unfortunately for you, my morals did not come from God... I do not come from a Christian family... the only time I have ever been in to a church is for a friends funeral or wedding....

Please get a grip.. your lil god did not shape this entire world, just a small lil part of it....

[Pr⊕phet]

Prometheus:

you are understanding me wrong - i wasn't saying that you are incorrect at all. what i wanted or would like is just a few or one article that lays this out that the earth is very young or just few thousand years.

GZZZ ppl its not so hard to have your url ready from where your do you interesting studies and its not evil to share them either - some of us likes to read through them also...

[Pr⊕phet]

Since it seems unfortiantly that Prometheus is not willing to share his urls/articles with us...

...i have found this so far (whether and who is right/wrong)


Creation Science Rebuttals - Young Earth Ministries / Personalities
Our rebuttals are divided into sections based on the young earth creation science ministry that produced the claim. Scroll down for a listing sorted by individual creation science theorists.
http://www.answersincreation.org/youngministry.htm



Creation Science Article Index
http://www.answersincreation.org/articles.htm



Young Earth/Old Earth?
http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or.us/AGEEARTH.htm



Age of the Earth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth



19 INDICATORS OF AN "OLD EARTH"
http://www.religioustolerance.org/oldearth.htm



The Age of the Earth
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
...


lol which seems no one can actually agree whether its young or old at this point

[ToxicBunny]

Yeah it does look like nobody can agree....

But I will admit that the Young Earth people don't really help themselves by try to attack the methods of Geologists who think its 4.5billion years old.....

And some of the "claims" on that Young Earth/Old Earth page really made me laugh...... but then i'm cynical...

[supersunbird]

We got out conscience though evolution... :D

[Claymore]

Your morals come from God. You did not get them from your parents because your parents didn't create them. It was all given to you by God, even Cain knew that it was wrong for him to kill Abel before there was even the ten commandments. It's not something which you simply pick up.

Do you honestly believe that? If so, how do non-Christian societies manage? And why is there such a high proprtion of Christians in prison?

[Prometheus]

and no.... unfortunately for you, my morals did not come from God... I do not come from a Christian family... the only time I have ever been in to a church is for a friends funeral or wedding....

Please get a grip.. your lil god did not shape this entire world, just a small lil part of it....
Sure, the universe is very little.

Prometheus:

you are understanding me wrong - i wasn't saying that you are incorrect at all. what i wanted or would like is just a few or one article that lays this out that the earth is very young or just few thousand years.

GZZZ ppl its not so hard to have your url ready from where your do you interesting studies and its not evil to share them either - some of us likes to read through them also...
My apologies, I did misunderstand. Sorry about that. :o

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/Evidences.htm

It's not complete but provides an interesting starting point.

[ToxicBunny]

Actually no, the universe is very large...and at best God had some influence over maybe 40% of the surface of this planet...which is ridiculously small percentage of a percentage of a percentage of this solar system alone...

[ToxicBunny]

That is an interesting article...

I don't necessarily agree with it, but it was still interesting.

[caramel]

Well, it does not matter if you a worshipper or not.. this does not make you a moral person does it... So all of you that think people that dont believe are evil should look in your immediate community and well, absorb.... moral people are not necessarily holy people.. sad but true... so to all you holy people do not cast a stone on groups that dont follow what society prescribe to them.. if they dont kill and hurt anyone leave them alone!

[Prometheus]

Yeah it does look like nobody can agree....

But I will admit that the Young Earth people don't really help themselves by try to attack the methods of Geologists who think its 4.5billion years old.....

And some of the "claims" on that Young Earth/Old Earth page really made me laugh...... but then i'm cynical...
And what is wrong with attacking a method? Creationist methods that are without merit regularly get attacked but when the shoe is on the other foot there is always the complaint that the creationists are being unscientific for some unknown unexplained reason. It is entirely acceptable to attack any method and if it stands up to scrutiny then fine but if not then that is not the problem of the attacker. I don't know if you use encryption or not but there is the standard preconception that any method which hasn't been thoroughly attacked isn't reliable period! The same rule should be applied to anything else.

Do you honestly believe that? If so, how do non-Christian societies manage? And why is there such a high proprtion of Christians in prison?
I believe that God created man and gave him his sense of right and wrong and that even if someone has never heard of God they can not be excused from this so obviously I do. To bring up the issue of Christians in prison which has been dealt with already shows a very naive sense of reality. It does not take into account the culture, reliability of the method, or even how many are in the society. Without all of this I can indeed with the same set of statistics show that there is a high proportion of atheists in prison.

Well, it does not matter if you a worshipper or not.. this does not make you a moral person does it... So all of you that think people that dont believe are evil should look in your immediate community and well, absorb.... moral people are not necessarily holy people.. sad but true... so to all you holy people do not cast a stone on groups that dont follow what society prescribe to them.. if they dont kill and hurt anyone leave them alone!
My point exactly.

[Mr TB]

you still are going to use your initial judgment before you agree or become part of a religion (before you had any knowledge of that system or any system)

That part itself isn't God given but your own conscious dicession (if you are not robotized already by this time).

the first instance (if you now take the bible in account) from wrong or right was told to adam and eve thats its wrong to eat from the tree (not learn't or passed down, christian or a bible)

which they did (good and evil, wrong and right) - in that instance they acquired the yes/no to wrong and right or good and evil by themselves of one god's own creations (the tree) with out any acceptance of any religion what so ever - right ?

apart from there being no Christ, Bible and Christianity - thus adam and eve and for the rest of their generations had known without excepting the above 3 right/wrong...

...until otherwise.

Good and Evil are based on divine principles. These divine principles are found in your conscious. And your conscious are god given no argument...

[ToxicBunny]

No Mr TB, good and evil are human concepts.....

and your conscious is not necessarily god given, that issue is still up for debate.

[Pr⊕phet]

Sure, the universe is very little.

My apologies, I did misunderstand. Sorry about that. :o

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/Evidences.htm

It's not complete but provides an interesting starting point.

thnx for the article :)

[Mr TB]

No Mr TB, good and evil are human concepts.....

and your conscious is not necessarily god given, that issue is still up for debate.

If everything are human concepts... then everything becomes relative...
What is truth to you is not necessarily truth to you...
What is lying to you is not necessarily lying to you...
What is brutal to me is not necessarily brutal to you... and
so we can go on with the list...,

If concepts are not divine who are any person to decide that the next person has done wrong?
In that very person's eyes what he did might not be wrong, who are you then to decide if concepts are not divine?

[ToxicBunny]

huh?... how can something be lying to me and not lying to me at the same time?

EVERYTHING is relative Mr TB... EVERYTHING....

[Pr⊕phet]

doing the correct thing as per morality:

a. set of moral codes to follow (example bushido)
b. value systems
c. correct conduct
d. ethics
e. principles
...

[not sure anymore what i wanted to point our here but owell - mixture of the above lets the correct decision be made...]

[Pr⊕phet]

Good and Evil are based on divine principles. These divine principles are found in your conscious. And your conscious are god given no argument...

sigh. so the ability to do wrong and the ability do right are made by god and then inserted into each human - right ?

[Mr TB]

huh?... how can something be lying to me and not lying to me at the same time?

EVERYTHING is relative Mr TB... EVERYTHING....

LMAO...what is truth to you might not be truth to me.
what is lying to me might not be lying to you.

So there is not a standard... and who are society to make a decision on that, what give them the right? It is my life so fck them...

That is the attitude of this generation and only by the application of divine principles and standards will you instill the correct attitude in the next generation...

[Tux]

what is lying to me might not be lying to you.


That's because you live in a world of your own....

[Pr⊕phet]

maybe you are all not real and i am ;)

i think therefore you are...

[PostmanPot]

'Conscience' is developed through sympathy, education, and social ties.

[ToxicBunny]

Damn u Ryuji.. thats my line...


You are ALL figments of my imagination...

[Tux]

There is no spoon...

[Mr TB]

'Conscience' is developed through sympathy, education, and social ties.

Once again you agree the conscience is there and then it is developed. Your conscience exist , god-given and then it is developed via circumstances etc.

BUT YOU AGREE YOUR CONSCIENCE EXIST AND IS DEVELOPED.

It is like photos that must be developed , they exist but must go through a process to present us with the pictures...

[PostmanPot]

Once again you agree the conscience is there and then it is developed. Your conscience exist , god-given and then it is developed via circumstances etc.

BUT YOU AGREE YOUR CONSCIENCE EXIST AND IS DEVELOPED.

It is like photos that must be developed , they exist but must go through a process to present us with the pictures...

Dodo, I specifically put the word conscience in inverted comma's as "conscience" is a silly word, very similar to a word like "fate". Because of the way you are brought up and the silly things you believe, the word tricks you into linking supernatural characteristics to it. Where "fate" is just coincidence, "conscience" is just another word for principles.

[Mr TB]

Dodo, I specifically put the word conscience in inverted comma's as "conscience" is a silly word, very similar to a word like "fate". Because of the way you are brought up and the silly things you believe, the word tricks you into linking supernatural characteristics to it. Where "fate" is just coincidence, "conscience" is just another word for principles.

You like to lie don't you? Your conscience make the wrong / right decision and then the principle is developed, come on man...:)

[Mr TB]

IN RESPONSE TO POSTMANPOT:

Your mind can then overrule the decision made in your conscience before you act...

[PostmanPot]

Now I remember why I don't try to get any sense out of you any more.

[Mr TB]

IN RESPONSE TO POSTMANPOT:

Your body is the vehicle of your mind and conscience while you are on earth...

[PostmanPot]

Deep.

[Mr TB]

Deep.

Not really- confirms the bible teaching- Spirit, Mind, Body.

[phenom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXq4VnR3RVw&mode=related&search=

[PostmanPot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXq4VnR3RVw&mode=related&search=

Same as Jewish & Christian fanatics deep down.

[Pr⊕phet]

isn't you body that the container, your soul thats in that which uses your mind to control it.


as you soul is eternal and not your mind or your conscience.

IF you can grasph that. want ek #@$#@!$ weet nie party keer nie.

[Mr TB]

isn't you body that the container, your soul thats in that which uses your mind to control it.


as you soul is eternal and not your mind or your conscience.

IF you can grasph that. want ek #@$#@!$ weet nie party keer nie.

Can I explain my humble view wiithout being grabbed by the throat and kicked in the ironies?

Your body is the vehicle or container, goeie een daai...

Your spirit according to me lives in your conscience...

Your soul lives, or is your mind...

Now, when you repent your spirit is saved(the new man), your soul is being saved(the battle with sin), when you die your body are saved... you receive a new body and your salvation is complete...

[Pr⊕phet]

ek weet nie kom ons gaan drink paar biere :P

[Nick333]

The mind is a bodily function. Anyone who doesn't believe me should stab themselves in the frontal lobe right now. :p

[Mr TB]

ek weet nie kom ons gaan drink paar biere :P

Nope, het 'n probleem met my pankreas jy sal my dalk net daarna moet begrawe...:D

[Pr⊕phet]

Nope, het 'n probleem met my pankreas jy sal my dalk net daarna moet begrawe...:D

atleast daarna sal jy nie weer he nie. en besides dan is jy gekiller deur 'n 'heaten' LMGA

[Mr TB]

atleast daarna sal jy nie weer he nie. en besides dan is jy gekiller deur 'n 'heaten' LMGA

:D