Turn me Christian

[TMoose]

I am an atheist. I am Afrikaans and, like most other Afrikaans people, was raised Christian. Unfortunately I have a brain that likes questioning things, and I remember doubting Christianity from as early as 4 or 5 years old.

In all the other threads there are some compelling arguments against Christianity. Some of them I am familiar with, some were new to me.

My personal belief is that most people (atheists included) would like to believe that we can live forever. I certainly know I'd like to believe that we'll all be hugging golden retrievers for all eternity in some kind of eternal soft light Something Fishy commercial... but I just can't see that reflected in anything I know about being human or living.

So this is a thread for Christians. Post arguments that can get us atheists thinking. Post stuff that can convince us otherwise or question the logic we've been using to debunk Christianity. Post stuff that'll make us go "wow, never thought of it that way". Post the most compelling arguments you have for god existing.

[ant5]

Think you'll battle to get coherent responses for this one...
Religious folk don't like you to question things or have an enquiring mind. You just have to believe and have faith!?!?

[The Cosmos]

I am an atheist. I am Afrikaans and, like most other Afrikaans people, was raised Christian. Unfortunately I have a brain that likes questioning things, and I remember doubting Christianity from as early as 4 or 5 years old.

In all the other threads there are some compelling arguments against Christianity. Some of them I am familiar with, some were new to me.

My personal belief is that most people (atheists included) would like to believe that we can live forever. I certainly know I'd like to believe that we'll all be hugging golden retrievers for all eternity in some kind of eternal soft light Something Fishy commercial... but I just can't see that reflected in anything I know about being human or living.

So this is a thread for Christians. Post arguments that can get us atheists thinking. Post stuff that can convince us otherwise or question the logic we've been using to debunk Christianity. Post stuff that'll make us go "wow, never thought of it that way". Post the most compelling arguments you have for god existing.

I for one question most things. You only have to look at the world, and the state it is in. Ask, why is it in this terrible state, what's behind it ? Who's behind it ? Why is it like that ? Where are we heading ?

I'm not talking about devil being in control, etc. I'm talking about world leaders, their actions, their methods, their ways of thinking. Start getting into that, and you will see alot of things you didn't see before. That's the starting point.



NS. Ek's bly dat jy ten minste oop is oor die onderwerp. Ander soos die Easter Bunny en Wacko Merlin skiet alles af wat mens se.

[BeVonk!]

You may want to have a look at http://www.reasons.org/ for an intellectual take on the subject. You would find much from the works of Ravi Zacharias also (http://www.rzim.org/). Then there is the works of CS Lewis.

I'm a Christian. I'm an analytical person who tends to be critical and cynical more often than I would like to be. I have been around the doubt block a few times myself. And it is a very necessary exercise/process to question one's own beliefs (or lack thereof). But in the end I found he intellectual (analytical) path to the answers of God's existence/non-existence unsatisfactory. As much as one cannot scientifically prove God's existence - one cannot 100% disprove it either.

I've thus stopped arguing about these things. I know what I know - it's deep within my being. Much about it I do not understand - but after much internal tribulation I have made peace with the fact that I will never understand it all. I know I need God. I know there is a "hole" inside of me that cannot be filled and satisfied by intellectual persuits (or money, or success/fame, etc). I just know it. Faith in God and a relationship with Jesus Christ fills the "hole" to my satisfaction - I am at peace. And for me the bottom line is that even if I'm wrong I've got nothing to loose.

I believe God creates the longing for Him in a person. God will never force himself onto any man - so He hides himself from man. He will never make himself too obvious - because if He makes himself too obvious (for all to see without doubt) then man will serve Him not out of love but out of fear and obligation. True love is 100% voluntary - and God is interested in true love only. Intellectual persuits rarely lead to Him - but people like CS Lewis and Ravi Zacharias has find Him on the intellectual path.

I know what I say here will not satisfy the intellectual mind - but it comes from someone who's been through a rough time to get where he is right now.

[PostmanPot]

*chortles*

[phenom]

Just, be like me & go for 'Atheists for Jesus', that way you will still receive Christmas presents.

[Mr TB]

Just, be like me & go for 'Atheists for Jesus', that way you will still receive Christmas presents.

Die graf was leeg, dit is deur die Romeinse wagte bevestig. Dan is die storie deur hulle in die wêreld ingestuur dat hulle, dit is die wagte, aan die slaap geraak het en dat die dissipels Jesus se lyk gesteel het raaiselagtig.

'n Deurslaggewende bewys dat hulle lieg is 'n logiese vraag.. Hoe kan hulle bevestig die dissipels het die lyk gesteel het indien hulle, die wagte, geslaap het?

[TMoose]

Die graf was leeg, dit is deur die Romeinse wagte bevestig. Dan is die storie deur hulle in die wêreld ingestuur dat hulle, dit is die wagte, aan die slaap geraak het en dat die dissipels Jesus se lyk gesteel het raaiselagtig.

'n Deurslaggewende bewys dat hulle lieg is 'n logiese vraag.. Hoe kan hulle bevestig die dissipels het die lyk gesteel het indien hulle, die wagte, geslaap het?Met alle respek Mnr TB. Die wagte, indien hulle bestaan het, het waarskynlik die enigste logiese gevolgtrekking gemaak wat hulle kon.

As jy jou beursie buite vergeet en hy is die volgende oggend weg, sou jy dink die beursie is gesteel, of dat hy voete gegroei en weg geloop het.

Completely circumstantial, unverifiable and irrelevant. Hardly something that's going to swing me.

Trafeye: thanks for your links, but having been an atheist for many years I have read quite a lot of those types of websites myself. I was hoping somebody on the forum could state an argument or a personal experience that would force me to rethink my stance. Unfortunately I doubt it'll happen. I tend to agree with Ant5's observation and Orangemans response is probably what I'll end up doing.

[Neo]

Die graf was leeg, dit is deur die Romeinse wagte bevestig. Dan is die storie deur hulle in die wêreld ingestuur dat hulle, dit is die wagte, aan die slaap geraak het en dat die dissipels Jesus se lyk gesteel het raaiselagtig.

'n Deurslaggewende bewys dat hulle lieg is 'n logiese vraag.. Hoe kan hulle bevestig die dissipels het die lyk gesteel het indien hulle, die wagte, geslaap het?

Wat de donder het dit met met TMoose se vraag te doen?

Tmoose, I think Trafeye probably answered your question. Even as a analytical person he eventually had to suspend logic and just believe.

@Trafeye, please don't see this as an attack on you, but you've discovered the obvious; logic and the OT/NT version of Christianity are (mostly) mutually exclusive.

[BeVonk!]

TMoose, sounds like you've made up your mind - mind being your focus. Life (and man) is about more than mind - and what the mind can comprehend. To think that at some point the mind will loose its vitality and power - and die. It really takes more faith to be an atheist than a Christian. The Bible speaks to all people at all intellectual levels - making its beliefs accessable to all kinds. Atheism is for the intellectual - the small percentage of people at the top of the IQ ladder - believing themselves to be too smart for religious nonsense. I want something that speaks to all peoples of all times - a system that trancends time and space. The Christian faith offers me that. The Christian faith brings some sense to man's existence - not perfect all fiiting answers - but sense. Atheisism is also a religion as it has its own set of beliefs. Believing that there is no God and no life after death is also a belief system - thus a religion. For me mine makes more sense - and brings me peace.

For decades atheistic communism tried to erdicate the Christian faith in China. The church of Christ actually grew in China despite the persecution - and is today immensely strong - and getting bigger and stronger by the day. The blood of the martyrs are the seed of the Gospel. You may declare these simple Chinese folk to be backward - not intellectual enough. They found God in suffering - and therefore their God is real to them. In the West God is being thrown out as prosperity grows. Man in the West have no need for the crutch. Until man turns on man - again.

TMoose, you have been raised Christian. I take it that you grew up in a conservative Christian setup where rules were the order - where God was painted as a thunderous titanic god waiting for you to make a mistake so that he can prove his power and righteousness. A religion of fear was handed down from generation to generation. I know it well - I was there. But God took me out of religion to rid me of all my preconceived ideas - to cleanse me of all my wrong programming. Today, I can say - with all honesty - that I found true freedom in Christ. I am truly and totally free. Today I know a loving God - a loving Father and Mother - nothing like the judgemental titan from my childhood "faith". May you also find the real God away from manmade religion. True Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with God through Christ Jesus. No strings attached - very simple - and a deal too good to reject.

But it's what works for you that will steer you. You may be fully satisfied with your life and your future - with the answers provided by atheism. You may be so intellectual that the idea of TMoose existing for no reason whatsoever makes sense to you. I know my clock is ticking and that one day - maybe tomorrow - I will die. I'm 37 years old and my body is already telling me its getting older in subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) ways. I know my body is slowly dying as I type this - and I cannot stop it. Man and all its science and technology cannot stop it. But I'm not dying. The death of my body is only the beginning - the birth of me into eternity - me escaping out of time and space. Atheism offers no hope - and hope is what a simple man like myself need every day. No God = no hope, no future. Not for me. But to each man his own.

[ant5]

Trafeye, your comments reveal that you have thought about this issue a lot and some of what you say makes sense.
I think most of us were brought up in a religious way, if not by parents, then through school, army or whatever, and although religion made no sense to me at all (and I hardly consider myself to be at the top of the IQ ladder), it was only when I discovered atheism as an alternative, that I felt truly free.
I don't see what is wrong with dying, and what that has to do with hope. I don't want to die, 'cos I am having a pretty good time here on earth, and I still have lots of hope for the future. When I die, that's it, game over, and I don't have any problem with that.
I think what Tmoose and I are looking for is WHY you need to believe, we are doing quite alright in a godless world, thank you very much, and without a guilty conscience to boot.

[BeVonk!]

TMoose, it's a real pity that you should be intellectually convinced to take up God's free - no strings attached - offer. It's a real pity that Christianity has been portrayed to you and most of the world as a heartless religion of laws and no love. It's a pity that most Christians are such poor reflections of the Master - but man being sinfull, and Christians remaining sinfull men (but forgiven and justified), is what the Gospel is all about.

For any man to try to turn you into a Christian would be wrong. It's all God's work - and no man can turn you into his child (but Himself). Only you really know whether you are fully satisfied in your current state of existence. If you are, why then ask the question on this forum in the first place (unless you actually wanted to make a statement yourself)? If your not 100% sure that everything is in order and that your current answers are 100% correct I suggest you start looking for more than intellectual answers - maybe listening to that small "voice" inside of you that's trying to tell you something.

What can I say ... the God I know is truly awesome.

[The Cosmos]

Are you ready to face anything after you die ? Because we believe there is an afterlife, a good and a bad one. The whole point for us, is to end up in the good afterlife.

If you die, and you find out there is an afterlife, you will have to face it. And if we are wrong, we will just apologise, and move on

[BeVonk!]

ant5, I believe there is nothing worse than religion. I hate religion - but I love God. Religion is man trying to put God in a box that they can handle. God will not allow himself to be boxed-in. God is God Unlimited. After much Bible study and contemplation - and going through some tough intellectual battles - I found the heart of my Faith - I found the true God that was hiding behind the words (and the traditions, laws and ceremonies).

[ant5]

Are you ready to face anything after you die ? Because we believe there is an afterlife, a good and a bad one. The whole point for us, is to end up in the good afterlife.

If you die, and you find out there is an afterlife, you will have to face it. And if we are wrong, we will just apologise, and move on

If, when I die, there turns out to be a god after all, and if he is anything like christians portray him to be, i am sure he will accept me into his heaven for having the courage to live by my convictions, and he should cast into hell people that, are only believing in case it turns out that god is real. That is just being dishonest to yourself, and surely a mighty god would pick that deceitfulness up within you.

That is not a valid argument in my view, i'm afraid

[ant5]

trafeye, I've had the same intellectual battles that you've had within myself, but you and I have obviously come to totally opposite conclusions. We are a microcosm for the world, I guess.
Off topic a bit, but man has really got it wrong with his interpretation of religion, like you say, and is killing himself because of it. I want nothing to do with it personally.

[BeVonk!]

ant5, to be a Christian just to stay out of hell is living through hell already (a religion based on fear). To be a Christian becuase of who God really is - and being besieged by His love and grace - that is heaven already. I will never recommend the Christian faith just to stay out of hell. I would much rather people find God and forget about hell.

[TMoose]

TMoose, sounds like you've made up your mind - mind being your focus. Life (and man) is about more than mind - and what the mind can comprehend.

Thanks for your reply Trafeye. My mind, after being pretty sure god doesn't exist for the most part of my life, is pretty much made up yes. I'd still like to believe though.


To think that at some point the mind will loose its vitality and power - and die. It really takes more faith to be an atheist than a Christian.I don't agree with you on this. When I was going to church the whole experience always felt forced to me. The religion never made sense to me, and nobody could ever explain to me why the Christian god was more relevant or real than other gods. In my personal life and from my own thinking I simply couldn't wrap my idea around it. Not believing is easy and natural. I don't constantly sit and think about it, I just get on with my life. It has no real impact on my life and requires nothing of me not to believe, whereas believing comes with a host of rituals and habits.


The Bible speaks to all people at all intellectual levels - making its beliefs accessable to all kinds. Atheism is for the intellectual - the small percentage of people at the top of the IQ ladder - believing themselves to be too smart for religious nonsense. I want something that speaks to all peoples of all times - a system that trancends time and space. The Christian faith offers me that.Once again I don't agree. No atheist can help that he / she is intelligent. I don't believe myself to be superior to people that believe. In fact I think you'll find that atheists overall are probably some of the most down to Earth people you'll meet. If anything, Christianity promotes superiority. It tells us that Christians are somehow superior to other human beings. That all us idiot non-believers will burn in the fires of hell and be tortured for all eternity because the Christian god decided to give us brains that question everything. To a large extent it's not my fault that I find it to difficult to believe... surely if there is a god he designed me to be this way? Why would he do that?

Also keep in mind that for large parts of history the church kept the masses from even being able to read the Bible. It wasn't always available to all.


The Christian faith brings some sense to man's existence - not perfect all fiiting answers - but sense. Atheisism is also a religion as it has its own set of beliefs. Believing that there is no God and no life after death is also a belief system - thus a religion. For me mine makes more sense - and brings me peace.The faith brings sense to your existence only because you don't believe everything you achieve here is for nothing. It doesn't mean the worth that you feel is real, only that you need to feel it. Atheism is not a religion. I don't even think about being an atheist unless I debate it with others. It takes no effort on my part not to believe because for me that is the natural way of things. Believing in a god goes against how my brain functions to a large extent. It doesn't bring me peace to ignore every objection my brain comes up with, it makes me more stressed.

[ant5]

ant5, to be a Christian just to stay out of hell is living through hell already (a religion based on fear). To be a Christian becuase of who God really is - and being besieged by His love and grace - that is heaven already. I will never recommend the Christian faith just to stay out of hell. I would much rather people find God and forget about hell.

I hear you, but what IJ is suggesting is that we should believe in god just in case he turns out to be real, a sort of "insurance policy"...i can't buy into that logic.

[TMoose]

For decades atheistic communism tried to erdicate the Christian faith in China. The church of Christ actually grew in China despite the persecution - and is today immensely strong - and getting bigger and stronger by the day. The blood of the martyrs are the seed of the Gospel. You may declare these simple Chinese folk to be backward - not intellectual enough. They found God in suffering - and therefore their God is real to them. In the West God is being thrown out as prosperity grows. Man in the West have no need for the crutch. Until man turns on man - again.This doesn't surprise me in the least since people love doing what they're not supposed to. Go ahead and ban Paganism in South Africa and I almost guarantee you gigantic growth in Pagan numbers. It has nothing to do with the religion being so great, but almost serves as a protest action instead. China is especially susceptable to such a phenomenon simply because their society has been very conservative and supressive for a long time now.


TMoose, you have been raised Christian. I take it that you grew up in a conservative Christian setup where rules were the order - where God was painted as a thunderous titanic god waiting for you to make a mistake so that he can prove his power and righteousness. A religion of fear was handed down from generation to generation. I know it well - I was there.Not quite. Our dominee in fact suggested that the Christian god was one that would encourage you to take a cookie out of the jar when your parents weren't looking. A benevolent and friendly being that enjoyed seeing people flourish and prosper. It's too bad reality doesn't reflect this god.


But God took me out of religion to rid me of all my preconceived ideas - to cleanse me of all my wrong programming. Today, I can say - with all honesty - that I found true freedom in Christ. I am truly and totally free. Today I know a loving God - a loving Father and Mother - nothing like the judgemental titan from my childhood "faith". May you also find the real God away from manmade religion. True Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with God through Christ Jesus. No strings attached - very simple - and a deal too good to reject.I am truly glad for you if this is the case. Every person deserves peace and happiness. I would just remind you that the happy go lucky way of Christianity that is available today wasn't available until maybe the last 50 years or so. In the past many people have been tortured to death for not taking everything in the bible literally. In many ways modern Christianity doesn't resemble the religion that started up 2000 years ago in any way.

[TMoose]

But it's what works for you that will steer you. You may be fully satisfied with your life and your future - with the answers provided by atheism. You may be so intellectual that the idea of TMoose existing for no reason whatsoever makes sense to you. I know my clock is ticking and that one day - maybe tomorrow - I will die. I'm 37 years old and my body is already telling me its getting older in subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) ways. I know my body is slowly dying as I type this - and I cannot stop it. Man and all its science and technology cannot stop it. But I'm not dying. The death of my body is only the beginning - the birth of me into eternity - me escaping out of time and space. Atheism offers no hope - and hope is what a simple man like myself need every day. No God = no hope, no future. Not for me. But to each man his own.If this brings you comfort then so be it. For me this is a way of avoiding ones own mortality. You'd rather not think of it, and religion becomes the straw puppet between you and reality. I wish I had the luxury of so easily dismissing the world that I see, but I can't. I distinctly remember the first time I saw a picture of a harlequin baby as the moment when I finally decided there could be no god.

[The Cosmos]

If, when I die, there turns out to be a god after all, and if he is anything like christians portray him to be, i am sure he will accept me into his heaven for having the courage to live by my convictions, and he should cast into hell people that, are only believing in case it turns out that god is real. That is just being dishonest to yourself, and surely a mighty god would pick that deceitfulness up within you.

That is not a valid argument in my view, i'm afraid

That's ludicrious. You mean to tell me, you ditch everything He has said, and commanded, and you expect a free reign with no strings attached ? That's crazy.


I hear you, but what IJ is suggesting is that we should believe in god just in case he turns out to be real, a sort of "insurance policy"...i can't buy into that logic.

It's a guarentee for a better life, as per the God of the Christian Bible.

[ant5]

ho hum.........

[BeVonk!]

ant5, talking about being honest ... one of the most precious things I discovered when I "rediscovered" God was that He is patient with people challenging Him - those asking the tough questions and being sceptical. The God I learned to know insists on honesty - and hates hypocricy and lies. God knows our limitations and loves us through it. God allows challenges - even violent ones. If you were to read what happened to Jacob when he wrestled with God you will find a God that is big enough to handle man's objections (and sins). God knows what is in our minds so we may just as well tell him - and by telling him we start a relationship. Faith is not being in a potato state - but being in an active relationship - even a wrestle match - with God. God blesses those who wrestles with him - as He did with Jacob.

[ant5]

trafeye, by the sounds of things the god you believe in is nothing like the god that is preached about on TV or spoken about by most christians I have had discussions with, and I guess this is where my problem with religion lies...
it is just so bendable and able to be interpreted in so many ways. Why hasn't all (or at least most) of mankind come to know the same god as you have? It just seems too easy for an individual to mould an image or an interpretation that they would be happy with.
Like Tmoose says, it wasn't always like this, that you could choose which attributes you would like your god to have...

[BeVonk!]

TMoose said "It's too bad reality doesn't reflect this god".

Current reality will not reflect what God is truly like. The reality we live in is not how God originally created us and the universe we live in - and what He intended it to be. That is exactly the point of it all. God made it perfect - but man chose the other tree - and is now enduring the consequences of its decision. Man had it all but wanted more - so God took much of what they had away. The mess we're in is all our own fault - and not God's. So when you see tragedy see man as its origin - not God. Mankind has messed-up so badly its not funny - and instead of grabbing a helping hand being offered to get out of the mess - it wants more control without God. The more mankind believes it can save itself the more it falls into chaos and dispair. The world we now live in is the world we created ourselves. We must stop blaming God - and accept resposibility ourselves (the start of all successful recovery processes).

[TMoose]

TMoose said "It's too bad reality doesn't reflect this god".

Current reality will not reflect what God is truly like. The reality we live in is not how God originally created us and the universe we live in - and what He intended it to be. That is exactly the point of it all. God made it perfect - but man chose the other tree - and is now enduring the consequences of its decision. Man had it all but wanted more - so God took much of what they had away. The mess we're in is all our own fault - and not God's. So when you see tragedy see man as its origin - not God. Mankind has messed-up so badly its not funny - and instead of grabbing a helping hand being offered to get out of the mess - it wants more control without God. The more mankind believes it can save itself the more it falls into chaos and dispair. The world we now live in is the world we created ourselves. We must stop blaming God - and accept resposibility ourselves (the start of all successful recovery processes).But surely if god is omniscient as the bible claims he is then he knew from the beginning that we'd pick the other tree. The question then becomes why god designed human beings to suffer, and whether a being that creates things simply to torture them deserves to be worshipped. The argument that human kind is responsible only becomes a real option if you accept that god isn't all knowing. If he is not, is he still worth worshipping?

[ant5]

This is the bit of Tmoose's post I was referring to:
"I would just remind you that the happy go lucky way of Christianity that is available today wasn't available until maybe the last 50 years or so. In the past many people have been tortured to death for not taking everything in the bible literally. In many ways modern Christianity doesn't resemble the religion that started up 2000 years ago in any way".

But I most certainly am not blaming god for the mess we find ourselves in, how could I? I don't even believe he exists. Of course man is to blame for whatever happens on earth that is within his control, that is obvious. But as for "Acts of God", why are they called that in popular culture (and insurance terminology)? My belief is that these events would happen anyway, whether man was here on earth or not, and in spite of what he may or may not have done.
A lot of religious people get frustrated by this point of view, just as I get weary of being told that i must believe in order to be saved...

[The Cosmos]

But surely if god is omniscient as the bible claims he is then he knew from the beginning that we'd pick the other tree. The question then becomes why god designed human beings to suffer, and whether a being that creates things simply to torture them deserves to be worshipped. The argument that human kind is responsible only becomes a real option if you accept that god isn't all knowing. If he is not, is he still worth worshipping?

Does He ever say if you obey Him, you will suffer ? We only suffer because of our incapabilities to be perfect as He is. He wants us to be perfect, but in order to do that, we have to go through a process of "cleansing". That's our suffering.

He gives us free will, and we are responsible. We are not robots. We are responsible for our own actions.

[TMoose]

Does He ever say if you obey Him, you will suffer ? We only suffer because of our incapabilities to be perfect as He is. He wants us to be perfect, but in order to do that, we have to go through a process of "cleansing". That's our suffering.

He gives us free will, and we are responsible. We are not robots. We are responsible for our own actions.Free will is impossible if god knows everything before it happens. That would mean at the very beginning in creating the universe, he would know exactly what would happen in the future depending on which way the lit the match so to speak. That would mean free will is actually an illusion and that we pretty much are robots. Free will can only exist if god doesn't know beforehand what we will choose. If he doesn't know beforehand he is not omniscient.

[BeVonk!]

... it is just so bendable and able to be interpreted in so many ways. Why hasn't all (or at least most) of mankind come to know the same god as you have? It just seems too easy for an individual to mould an image or an interpretation that they would be happy with.

What I tell you tonight ant5 is all in the Bible. But people must read what God says about himself. People must study the attributes of God - and stop making their own skewed portraits of him. God is who and what He says He is. In the Bible it states that man is destroyed due to a lack of knowledge. The knowledge God refers to in this verse is the knowledge of God - of who and what He really is. That is the starting point. Too much of what people believe today about God comes from second-hand sources (dominees, priests, etc) - and not from the Book itself. God is in perfect balance - and in perfect harmony. God's perfect love is in perfect balance with his perfect righteousness.

What I believe comes from a personal relationship with the Source - and not from prepackaged Sunday sermons. People often state that the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways - and with some portions/verses it may be so - but when it comes to who and what God is there is no such misconceptions. And it must start there. And we must study the whole Bible to find the whole God (not just the pieces we like).

[The Cosmos]

Free will is impossible if god knows everything before it happens. That would mean at the very beginning in creating the universe, he would know exactly what would happen in the future depending on which way the lit the match so to speak. That would mean free will is actually an illusion and that we pretty much are robots. Free will can only exist if god doesn't know beforehand what we will choose. If he doesn't know beforehand he is not omniscient.

Free will doesn't dissapear because He knows what's going to happen. I can't see how the two are really connected, in the way you mention it. :confused: No free will means He controls us, like puppets on a string. And that certainly is not the case.

[phenom]

They found God in suffering - and therefore their God is real to them. In the West God is being thrown out as prosperity grows. Man in the West have no need for the crutch. Until man turns on man - again.

Atheists simply have are the most developed and have the lowest crime rate, the only bad about Atheism, is the very low, but steadily increasing birth rate.
>1% atheist in prison population in USA http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
Divorce rates by religion (U.S.)
Religion

% have been divorced
Jews
30%
Other Christians
24%
Atheists, Agnostics
21%

[BeVonk!]

TMoose, God gave us a free will. Yes God probably knows what we will choose - but He does not interfere. He knows the consequences that will follow our choices but He will not stop us from getting it our way. That He knows what we will choose does not make him a partaker of our choices and its consequences. God did not create evil - man did (evil being the opposite of God's will). But that's the beauty of Jesus Christ ... God declared his plan when He cursed Satan. The bottom line therefore is ... what did God do about it ... did He provide a fix for man's bad choices ... and the answer yes ...Jesus Christ. God became man so that the whole mess can be fixed. God gave his Son to fix our mess (not his). And God made this redemption offer to all for free. I truly cannot understand why man would reject God and his offer. What is God asking from man that is so hard to give?

[TMoose]

TMoose, God gave us a free will. Yes God probably knows what we will choose - but He does not interfere. He knows the consequences that will follow our choices but He will not stop us from getting it our way. That He knows what we will choose does not make him a partaker of our choices and its consequences. God did not create evil - man did (evil being the opposite of God's will). But that's teh beauty of Jesus Christ ... God declared his plan when He cursed Satan. The bottom line therefore is ... what did God do about it ... did He provide a fix for man's bad choices ... and the answer is Jesus Christ. God became man so that the whole mess can be fixed. God gave his son to fix our mess (not his). And God made this redemption offer to all for free. I truly cannot understand why man would reject God. What is God asking from man that is so hard to give?Wait, so god didn't create evil, but he created satan knowing that he would become evil... he also tollerates the existence of evil. If god is omnipresent is he in hell? This whole evil business has got me confused. Why doesn't god just clear up all these misunderstandings himself? Why allow 100's of world religions to flourish? There is no free will with your god, only the illusion of free will. His universe has been premeditated since he created it.

[BeVonk!]

Orangeman, Christians are not human beings who overcame sin and sin no more. Christians are human being who know they are messed-up badly and seeks love and understanding from a loving God that accepts them in their stricken state - and gives them a new identity: God's adopted ones. Christians are forgiven - but when they become Christians they start a process to become less sinful - a process called sanctification. But only Jesus will ever be without sin - that's the whole point. Christians have messed-up badly - they still do - and will do so in future. Stats stating that "Christians" do some bad things more than others changes nothing to their standing with God.

[The Cosmos]

Wait, so god didn't create evil, but he created satan knowing that he would become evil...

God did create evil.

[TMoose]

God did create evil.Ok so if god created evil, is he still a god only capable of doing good things? How does the fact that god created evil reflect on his status as benevolent saviour of the universe? Does he still deserve status of saviour if he's actually saving us from stuff he created himself? Is he still worth worshipping if he is capable of evil?

[BeVonk!]

TMoose, God gave Satan a free will too.

But TMoose if you will only accept God once all your intellectual gaps are filled you will never accept him. The intellectual path become wider as knowledge increases - not narrower. The more you know the more you will discover you don't know. Why not consider a more holistic approach to the search for God - something that goes beyond the intellectual.

[phenom]

Stats stating that "Christians" do some bad things more than others changes nothing to their standing with God.
I have not said Christians are the worst or near the worst, i said that atheists are the most advanced in living. I completely disbelieve in faith, if their is a word as 'afaithist', i would call myself that.

[TMoose]

TMoose, God gave Satan a free will too.

But TMoose if you will only accept God once all your intellectual gaps are filled you will never accept him. The intellectual path become wider as knowledge increases - not narrower. The more you know the more you will discover you don't know. Why not consider a more holistic approach to the search for God - something that goes beyond the intellectual.As in blindly accepting one of the worlds youngest religions.... mmmm.. nah.

[BeVonk!]

God did create evil.

I disagree here IJ. And yes it's fine for Christians to disagree :) . I believe evil is all that is against God and his will and design. I call it "the void". Satan has a free will. He knew God's will but chose to rebel against it - thus jumping into the void.

[BeVonk!]

As in blindly accepting one of the worlds youngest religions.... mmmm.. nah.

TMoose, congrats on that 1000 post! :)

Nobody said anything about blindly accepting anything. i'm the last person alive to accept anything blindly.

[BeVonk!]

TMoose, ant5, IJ, and others ... thanks for the lekker chat, I must go now.

[The Cosmos]

Ok so if god created evil, is he still a god only capable of doing good things? How does the fact that god created evil reflect on his status as benevolent saviour of the universe? Does he still deserve status of saviour if he's actually saving us from stuff he created himself? Is he still worth worshipping if he is capable of evil?

Two words. Free will.
God creates good and evil. day and night. light and darkness. all opposites. now He wants to see, if we are going to be opposite Him or with Him. Therefore, free will. Also, if we are with Him, and we make mistakes, this is where His untold grace and love comes in. He wants to see if we want to be with Him.

[The Cosmos]

TMoose, ant5, IJ, and others ... thanks for the lekker chat, I must go now.

sure, catch ye lata !

[FlyingPika]

The bible is written outside of time, inspired by some1 who knows the future:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013800&postcount=12
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013844&postcount=17

Since evolution is false what alternatives do you have:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=925708&postcount=8
(can see the referances here :http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=925711&postcount=9)
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=925745&postcount=14
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=925747&postcount=15

And may i ask what are some of your questions that give you a hard time believing the the bible is Gods word and Jesus died to pay for your sins so that you may avoid everlasting punishment for infinitely offensive sin to an infinitely Holy God?

[The Cosmos]

Turn me Christian

Just another thing. The title of this thread is a bit misleading, (no disrespect Tmoose). You either accept christianity or you don't. It's that simple.

[PostmanPot]

.

[Mr TB]

As in blindly accepting one of the worlds youngest religions.... mmmm.. nah.

Originally Posted by TMoose

"Free will is impossible if god knows everything before it happens."

My opinion is that "free will" is the empowerment we received from God to reign on earth. IOW although he know the choices we are going to make and the outcome of such choices it is in our hands to reign and rule. There is however limits. He may intervene if the cup of inequity overflow or in case of prayer... Such empowerment equalled the power possessed by satan.

"That would mean at the very beginning in creating the universe, he would know exactly what would happen in the future depending on which way the lit the match so to speak."
From the beginning an omniscient GOD knew although He provided man with the tools to defeat satan, man would fail and hand the power to satan . An omniscient God knew He would have to defeat satan by himself therefor the promise in GEN 3v15.

"That would mean free will is actually an illusion and that we pretty much are robots. Free will can only exist if god doesn't know beforehand what we will choose. If he doesn't know beforehand he is not omniscient"
Just like directors of companies are given the freedom to deal with the property of a company in good faith, God allowed us to deal with His property in good faith, we failed miserably and he needed to come and save us...

[Pr⊕phet]

Does He ever say if you obey Him, you will suffer ? We only suffer because of our incapabilities to be perfect as He is. He wants us to be perfect, but in order to do that, we have to go through a process of "cleansing". That's our suffering.

He gives us free will, and we are responsible. We are not robots. We are responsible for our own actions.

IJ there is actually a verse like that - something like this

"For my yoke is easy and my burden light" (Mt 11,30)

so minor sufferings ;)

as with any religion inside it our non religion person you will have scrutiny from some one out there.

[fivelza]

I am an atheist. I am Afrikaans and, like most other Afrikaans people, was raised Christian. Unfortunately I have a brain that likes questioning things, and I remember doubting Christianity from as early as 4 or 5 years old.

In all the other threads there are some compelling arguments against Christianity. Some of them I am familiar with, some were new to me.

.....

So this is a thread for Christians. Post arguments that can get us atheists thinking. Post stuff that can convince us otherwise or question the logic we've been using to debunk Christianity. Post stuff that'll make us go "wow, never thought of it that way". Post the most compelling arguments you have for god existing.

TMoose, what I have experienced from interacting with atheists, theists etc especially on this forum is the requirement of proof i.e. prove that God exists, prove the Bible is the Word of God and on and on it goes.

The proof that Christians have is good enough for Christians, but in many ways does not come close to satisfying the 'prove it' standard set by many here.

It is interesting that you started questioning that resulted in you doubting and then ultimately not believing. I believe there is not a single Christian out there that at one stage or another had serious questions about their faith, so to have questions is not abnormal.

I have always been a Christian and for me there are many questions that I have for which the answers available at the moment, make little sense. That been said, if Christianity only exists as a logical discussion then I submit that one has only scratched the surface.

Christianity (per my very simple definition) is a relationship with a living God. I believe that everyone has a 'God shaped hole'...how you choose to fill that is up to you.

What 'wow' stuff can I add, I see God's work all around me everyday and that is wow for me, but that is because I am open to this.

God will meet you anywhere, any time, but you would need to have an 'open' heart for him. If what you have now is good enough for you then I guess there is not space in your life for God.

[Mr TB]

IJ there is actually a verse like that - something like this

"For my yoke is easy and my burden light" (Mt 11,30)

so minor sufferings ;)

as with any religion inside it our non religion person you will have scrutiny from some one out there.

Yes indeed you are right Necuno, but once you understand the verse, the burdens and the sufferings of this world fades away in the light of JESUS CHRIST.

You must first learn to live from the inside before you are really useful to anyone...