Direct mention to Jesus Christ in the OT

[PostmanPot]

Let's discuss this.

I asked a Christian (online) about direct mention of JC in the OT seeing as it is being debated in another thread. It was interesting to find that he quoted a verse from Genesis to show me the direct mention of JC in the OT ;)


Kjv Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I was quite surprised as this verse was definately not mentioned by our resident evangelists.

So I asked him, "How does that directly refer to Jesus?"

He tells me, "The only One who could defeat sin would have to be sinless no?"

Wtf? I decided to leave it at that :mad:

[Nick333]

:D WTF??? is right.

edit: That particular verse was brought up by Prom once, as proof that the bible author had knowledge of the intricacies of the mammalian reproductive process.
So much knowledge, AND foresight in just one verse. :D

[The Cosmos]

First of all, if you don't have an open mind about this, then forget it.


Kjv Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Let's break this up.


And I will put enmity between thee and the woman

The devil and the christ (for christ comes out of the women, literally from mary and figuratively through the bloodline of the people)


between thy seed and her seed

the children of the devil, and the children of God


it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

bruise should actually be crush. However, it means through the seed of the woman, or the people, a saviour will come that will crush the head of the snake, i.e. defeat the devil. But until that time, the devil will still inflict harm and pain, by bruising our heels.

[Nick333]

Fundamentalist Christians are just more subtle with the ad hominem arguments than scientologists. What fish boy is saying is, is that if you don't make the same giant leap in reasoning that he does you are closed minded. Fccking hilarious really.

[PostmanPot]

:D WTF??? is right.

edit: That particular verse was brought up by Prom once, as proof that the bible author had knowledge of the intricacies of the mammalian reproductive process.
So much knowledge, AND foresight in just one verse. :D

Lmao, thanks for reminding me :D

[The Cosmos]

Fundamentalist Christians are just more subtle with the ad hominem arguments than scientologists. What fish boy is saying is, is that if you don't make the same giant leap in reasoning that he does you are closed minded. Fccking hilarious really.

That is not what i am saying, and for someone who quotes that la vey character, i'm not surprised at the way you are reasoning. :rolleyes:

[Nick333]

That is not what i am saying,

Oh really? What are you saying then?


First of all, if you don't have an open mind about this, then forget it.


and for someone who quotes that la vey character, i'm not surprised at the way you are reasoning. :rolleyes:

Thats two ad hominem arguments in as many posts. :D

[The Cosmos]

Oh really? What are you saying then?


Not what you're saying that's for sure. I'm saying that if he wants a better understanding, get rid of all preconceived notions. You're just trolling. :rolleyes:

[Mr TB]

That is not what i am saying, and for someone who quotes that la vey character, i'm not surprised at the way you are reasoning. :rolleyes:

IJ dit is natuurlik baie letterlik uiteengesit... dit is egter geen verrassing nie..., Jy sal sien die woord is saad en nie sade nie. Die saad van die vrou waarna verwys word is Christus Jesus. satan sal Hom aan die hakskeen byt d.w.s doodmaak aan die kruis. Christus het egter opgestaan soos ons weet en die groot dag met sy wederkoms gaan hy satan se kop finaal verbrysel. Amen.

[Nick333]

Not what you're saying that's for sure. I'm saying that if he wants a better understanding, get rid of all preconceived notions. You're just trolling. :rolleyes:

So if one understands this differently to how you do, its because of preconceived notions. Thats completely different then, lmao.

[The_Techie]

Goed gestel, Mr_TB. Also well explained, Internet Junkie.

However, I do not want to join a debate about religion because I don't presume to tell people what to believe.

[FlyingPika]

Jesus came, born of a virgin, has beaten and bruised for our inequities, He took the punishment we deserve for our sins and paid for them on the cross. He was the spotless lamb that paid the price for many. We are righteous because his righteousness paid for our sins! He returned to heaven after defeating death and was exalted on high in and given a place at the right hand of the Father.

Isaiah the prophet:

Isaiah 7:14 (Amplified Bible)
14Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: Behold, the young woman who is unmarried and a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us].


Isaiah 29:18 (Amplified Bible)
18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and out of obscurity and gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see.



Isaiah 52:13-15 (Amplified Bible)
13Behold, My [a]Servant shall deal wisely and shall prosper; He shall be exalted and extolled and shall stand very high.

14[For many the Servant of God became an object of horror; many were astonished at Him.] His face and His whole appearance were marred more than any man's, and His form beyond that of the sons of men--but just as many were astonished at Him,

15So shall He startle and sprinkle many nations, and kings shall shut their mouths because of Him; for that which has not been told them shall they see, and that which they have not heard shall they consider and understand.


Isaiah 53
1WHO HAS believed (trusted in, relied upon, and clung to) our message [of that which was revealed to us]? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been disclosed?(A)

2For [the Servant of God] grew up before Him like a tender plant, and like a root out of dry ground; He has no form or comeliness [royal, kingly pomp], that we should look at Him, and no beauty that we should desire Him.

3He was despised and rejected and forsaken by men, a Man of sorrows and pains, and acquainted with grief and sickness; and like One from Whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we did not appreciate His worth or have any esteem for Him.

4Surely He has borne our griefs (sicknesses, weaknesses, and distresses) and carried our sorrows and pains [of punishment], yet we [ignorantly] considered Him stricken, smitten, and afflicted by God [as if with leprosy].(B)

5But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our guilt and iniquities; the chastisement [needful to obtain] peace and well-being for us was upon Him, and with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole.

6All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has made to light upon Him the guilt and iniquity of us all.(C)

7He was oppressed, [yet when] He was afflicted, He was submissive and opened not His mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away; and as for His generation, who among them considered that He was cut off out of the land of the living [stricken to His death] for the transgression of my [Isaiah's] people, to whom the stroke was due?

9And they assigned Him a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.(D)

10Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief and made Him sick. When You and He make His life an offering for sin [and He has risen from the dead, in time to come], He shall see His [spiritual] offspring, He shall prolong His days, and the will and pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.

11He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].

12Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great [kings and rulers], and He shall divide the spoil with the mighty, because He poured out His life unto death, and [He let Himself] be regarded as a criminal and be numbered with the transgressors; yet He bore [and took away] the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors (the rebellious).(E)

Glory to God!

[Neo]

I'm posting my reply to IJ on the same subject here, to keep the topic in one thread.


ok, i'll try, i've had a long day, but will try my best.



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word... the Word according to Revelation is Christ.

In the beginning meaning at creation.

Another one.
Joh 8:58 - ....Before Abraham was, I am. That should actually be translated I was. Still it confirms He was before Abraham.

If He was in the OT, the only logical explanation was that He was an angel.

This is just two.

Son of God.
John acknowledge He was the Son of God
Joh 20:31.

Demons acknowledge Christ is the Son of God.
Matt 8:29

Mark acknowledges
Mar 1:1

Joh 9:35-37 Christ acknowledges He is the Son of God.



Here you have to use a bit of logic. Christ was the Saviour, and Lucifer was bannished to earth. And the you have to use the below verse in context.



Apologies. It's in Hebrews. Heb 1:4.

Maybe you missed my question, being tired and all: Where in the Old Testament is Jesus mentioned? All your quote above reference the NT that was written AD.

[PostmanPot]

Goed gestel, Mr_TB. Also well explained, Internet Junkie.

However, I do not want to join a debate about religion because I don't presume to tell people what to believe.

Telling us where Jesus is directly mentioned in the OT is not telling us what to believe.

[The Cosmos]

I'm posting my reply to IJ on the same subject here, to keep the topic in one thread.



Maybe you missed my question, being tired and all: Where in the Old Testament is Jesus mentioned? All your quote above reference the NT that was written AD.

Post 151 in previous thread (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013812&postcount=151)

[Neo]

Kjv Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Why Jesus? Why not Mohammad, Sidhartha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or Spiderman? Or maybe it just means what it says, people kill snakes and snakes tend to bite....:rolleyes:

How in God's name do you get to Jesus from the above verse?

[FlyingPika]

Just wanna mention above that it even tells of how he remained silent and did not open his mouth when they where accusing him at his trial, wow!

Some more OT scripture:

Psalm 41:9 (Amplified Bible)
9Even my own familiar friend, in whom I trusted (relied on and was confident), who ate of my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.



Zechariah 11:12-13 (Amplified Bible)
12And I said to them, If it seems just and right to you, give me my wages; but if not, withhold them. So they weighed out for my price thirty pieces of silver.

13And the Lord said to me, Cast it to the potter [as if He said, To the dogs!]--the munificently [miserable] sum at which I [and My shepherd] am priced by them! And I [Zechariah] took the thirty pieces of silver and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
Judas was paid 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus! And the Potters field was bought with it! Not a co-incidence, and impossible to fabricate because it was written way before Jesus came.

How do you describe the crucification of Jesus before crucification even exists?

Jesus cried out on the cross "MY God, My God why have you forsaken Me". And just before he died he said "It is finished/Paid in full". Jesus had no bones broken during his crucification. Normally when they crucify some1, they break their legs to ensure they die. Jesus was pierced and water and blood flowed out his side (a sure sign some1 is dead when the water and blood are separated). At the end the Romans even gambled (cast lots) for his seamless robe.


Psalm 22
To the Chief Musician; set to [the tune of] Aijeleth Hashshahar [the hind of the morning dawn]. A Psalm of David.
1[a]MY GOD, my God, why have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?(A)

2O my God, I cry in the daytime, but You answer not; and by night I am not silent or find no rest.

3But You are holy, O You Who dwell in [the holy place where] the praises of Israel [are offered].

4Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted (leaned on, relied on You, and were confident) and You delivered them.

5They cried to You and were delivered; they trusted in, leaned on, and confidently relied on You, and were not ashamed or confounded or disappointed.

6But I am a worm, and no man; I am the scorn of men, and despised by the people.(B)

7All who see me laugh at me and mock me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,(C)

8He trusted and rolled himself on the Lord, that He would deliver him. Let Him deliver him, seeing that He delights in him!(D)

9Yet You are He Who took me out of the womb; You made me hope and trust when I was on my mother's breasts.

10I was cast upon You from my very birth; from my mother's womb You have been my God.

11Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.

12Many [foes like] bulls have surrounded me; strong bulls of Bashan have hedged me in.(E)

13Against me they opened their mouths wide, like a ravening and roaring lion.

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax; it is softened [with anguish] and melted down within me.

15My strength is dried up like a fragment of clay pottery; [with thirst] my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and You have brought me into the dust of death.(F)

16For [like a pack of] dogs they have encompassed me; a company of evildoers has encircled me, they pierced my hands and my feet.(G)

17I can count all my bones; [the evildoers] gaze at me.(H)

18They part my clothing among them and cast lots for my raiment (a long, shirtlike garment, a seamless undertunic).(I))

19But be not far from me, O Lord; O my Help, hasten to aid me!

20Deliver my life from the sword, my dear life [my only one] from the power of the dog [the agent of execution].

21Save me from the lion's mouth; for You have answered me [kindly] from the horns of the wild oxen.

22I will declare Your name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation will I praise You.(J)

23You who fear (revere and worship) the Lord, praise Him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify Him. Fear (revere and worship) Him, all you offspring of Israel.

24For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither has He hidden His face from him, but when he cried to Him, He heard.

25My praise shall be of You in the great congregation. I will pay to Him my vows [made in the time of trouble] before them who fear (revere and worship) Him.

26The poor and afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise the Lord--they who [diligently] seek for, inquire of and for Him, and require Him [as their greatest need]. May your hearts be quickened now and forever!

27All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall bow down and worship before You,

28For the kingship and the kingdom are the Lord's, and He is the ruler over the nations.

29All the mighty ones upon earth shall eat [in thanksgiving] and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before Him, even he who cannot keep himself alive.

30Posterity shall serve Him; they shall tell of the Lord to the next generation.

31They shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people yet to be born--that He has done it [that it is finished]!

Footnotes:

1. Psalm 22:1 "This is beyond all others 'The Psalm of the Cross.' It may have been actually repeated by our Lord when hanging on the tree; it would be too bold to say so, but even a casual reader may see that it might have been. It begins with, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' and ends [with the thought], 'It is finished.' For plaintive expressions uprising from unutterable depths of woe, we may say of this psalm, 'There is none like it'" (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, The Treasury of David). Quoted in the Gospels (Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34; and alluded to in Matt. 27:35, 39, 43 and John 19:23-24, 28) as being fulfilled at Christ's crucifixion.


Cross references:

1. Psalm 22:1 : Matt 27:46
2. Psalm 22:6 : Matt 27:39-44
3. Psalm 22:7 : Matt 27:43
4. Psalm 22:8 : Matt 27:39, 43; Mark 15:29, 30; Luke 23:35
5. Psalm 22:12 : Ezek 39:18
6. Psalm 22:15 : John 19:28
7. Psalm 22:16 : Isa 53:7; John 19:37
8. Psalm 22:17 : Luke 23:27, 35
9. Psalm 22:18 : John 19:23, 24
10. Psalm 22:22 : John 20:17; Rom 8:29; Heb 2:12
11. Psalm 22:31 : John 19:30

[Neo]

Post 151 in previous thread (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013812&postcount=151)



As i mentioned in a previous thread/post, He appeared to Samson's father. Now, you have to remember the scriptures I gave. That confirms He was in OT times. Now, you have to search for where He appears. In some places, other messengers appear, and other places He appears. I am still trying to study that, and have not even come halfway with it. So, for you like me, it takes some time, but eventually you'll get there. There's no quick answers really.


Awaiting the places where Jesus appears in the OT with baited breath.

To recap. You're were also going to answer the following statements you made:

"Christ was an angel, but He was also the Son of God. The promised Saviour" Where does it say this in the Old Testament?

And ".....lucifer being favourable to all the other angels. However, because of Christ's name that makes Him, even Higher than lucifer" please. I know the bit about about Lucifer being the fav angel, but where does it say Christ is even higher because of his name?

[The Cosmos]

Why Jesus? Why not Mohammad, Sidhartha or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or Spiderman?

How about this is a christian bible ?


How in God's name do you get to Jesus from the above verse?

1 Joh 3:8

[FlyingPika]

I recommend to any the following two books:
"BETRAYED!" by Stan Telshin. A book by a rabi whose daughter became a Christian, which outraged him. He then set out to proof to her that Jesus was not the Christ. Unfortunately for him he became a believer in Jesus when he examined the text more closely!

THE RABBI FROM BUBANK by Isidor Zwirin. A Rabbi by just studying his OT learned that Jesus was the Messiah!

[FlyingPika]

Maybe you missed my question, being tired and all: Where in the Old Testament is Jesus mentioned? All your quote above reference the NT that was written AD.
Please see the whole chapter Isaiah wrote about Jesus that i posted. And the other following scriptures i posted that are all OT.

[Neo]

Hebrews 2:14 (Amplified Bible)
14Since, therefore, [these His] children share in flesh and blood [in the physical nature of human beings], He [Himself] in a similar manner partook of the same [nature], that by [going through] death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death--that is, the devil--




Side note: what is this rubbish i have read on this forum that says that the OT does not talk about Satan? Theres a scriptures right there!


Ummm, you're quoting from Hebews which is in the New Testament the last time I looked.

[The Cosmos]

[QUOTE=Neo;1013851]Awaiting the places where Jesus appears in the OT with baited breath.

To recap. You're were also going to answer the following statements you made:

1) Appearing before Samson's father. That's one i can confirm.

Others which i cannot confirm but which are likely are:

2) One of the men in the oven in Daniel
3) One of the messengers at Sodom and Gomorra
4) The figure speaking in the burning bush to Moses


"Christ was an angel, but He was also the Son of God. The promised Saviour" Where does it say this in the Old Testament?

I told you in this post (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013733&postcount=148).

However, in saying that, throughout the OT it was prophecised about the coming Savour ridding the world of sin, and saving mankind. By the prophets amongst others.


And ".....lucifer being favourable to all the other angels.

That i'll have to come back to you on.


but where does it say Christ is even higher because of his name?
Heb 1:4.

[Neo]

How about this is a christian bible ?

Actually it's not just a Christian bible, remember? What about the people who don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God? How do they read this verse?



1 Joh 3:8



3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil
sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was
manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


How does this explain the specific events in Genesis predicting Jesus?

[Neo]

1) Appearing before Samson's father. That's one i can confirm.

Others which i cannot confirm but which are likely are:

2) One of the men in the oven in Daniel
3) One of the messengers at Sodom and Gomorra
4) The figure speaking in the burning bush to Moses

"Christ was an angel, but He was also the Son of God. The promised Saviour" Where does it say this in the Old Testament?

I told you in this post (http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=1013733&postcount=148).

However, in saying that, throughout the OT it was prophecised about the coming Savour ridding the world of sin, and saving mankind. By the prophets amongst others.

That i'll have to come back to you on.

Heb 1:4.

So far all your direct quotes are from the New Testament.

The question to you and the topic of this thread is: Where in the OT is there a direct reference to Jesus?

[Mr TB]

Actually it's not just a Christian bible, remember? What about the people who don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God? How do they read this verse?





How does this explain the specific events in Genesis predicting Jesus?

If we look in retrospect to the chain of events from GEN 3v15 up to the birth of Christ there can not be much doubt.

Scientists also want us to look in retrospect at the evidence they produce for evolution... is it not true?

But then again... the evidence produced by the scientists is nothing but shaky...

[The Cosmos]

So far all your direct quotes are from the New Testament.

The question to you and the topic of this thread is: Where in the OT is there a direct reference to Jesus?

Well, you must first understand the OT and NT quote each other back and forth. With that in mind, you can take what John said, and you can back track some of the things said about Christ in the OT.

Same with Paul. Same with Peter.

There's just too many, and i'll leave this subject for tomorrow.


How does this explain the specific events in Genesis predicting Jesus?

It's all in the prophecies. Study the prophets and what they said. The stuff in Genesis can be confirmed in the NT. And by the prophets of the OT.

Again, there's too many scriptures to mention.

[Neo]

If we look in retrospect to the chain of events from GEN 3v15 up to the birth of Christ there can not be much doubt.

Scientists also want us to look in retrospect at the evidence they produce for evolution... is it not true?

But then again... the evidence produced by the scientists is nothing but shaky...

So building a complete view of the world based one ONE SINGLE book with unknown authors, borrowing myths from many other cultures and making statements that today we know are completely crazy is solid evidence?

[Mr TB]

[QUOTE=Neo;1013882]Actually it's not just a Christian bible, remember? What about the people who don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God? How do they read this verse?
QUOTE]

Thinking about it, you are right but wrong, it is written for those believing that God will send a Savior.

A promise of such Savior is made in GEN 3v15.

When the Savior came it was indeed the Son of God whether you want believe it or not. He confirmed that through Peter and see my signature in the NT.

If you are not a believer you will notice the promise and also notice the fullfilment of such promise in the NT...

[FlyingPika]

Ummm, you're quoting from Hebews which is in the New Testament the last time I looked.
oops! i fixed it now. I wrote down a couple of scriptures in the corner of my bible relating to this, and the Hebrews one was right next to it, but I should of realised that.

[FlyingPika]

Once again tho, i may of posted one scripture that was NT, but what about Isaiah and Psalms 22? You have not mentioned anything about them?

[PostmanPot]

.


Once again tho, i may of posted one scripture that was NT, but what about Isaiah and Psalms 22? You have not mentioned anything about them?


Awaiting the places where Jesus appears in the OT with baited breath.


So far all your direct quotes are from the New Testament.

The question to you and the topic of this thread is: Where in the OT is there a direct reference to Jesus?

[FlyingPika]

Isaiah is OT and is a direct reference to Jesus. Born of a virgin dying to pay for our sins etc etc etc.

If you saying its not a direct reference to Jesus who is he talking about?

[Pr⊕phet]

Logos

[Neo]

Once again tho, i may of posted one scripture that was NT, but what about Isaiah and Psalms 22? You have not mentioned anything about them?

Not yet :), still busy reading them again.

[Mr TB]

The obvious thing to forget, especially if you oppose the bible is the languages in which it was written. Once sorted out there seems to be 39straightforward references to Christ...

QUOTE:
"Messiah
Hebrew: mashiah

in all the thirty-nine instances of its occurring in the Old Testament, is translated by the LXX. [Septuagint] "Christos""

[Claymore]

The obvious thing to forget, especially if you oppose the bible is the languages in which it was written. Once sorted out there seems to be 39straightforward references to Christ...

QUOTE:
"Messiah
Hebrew: mashiah

in all the thirty-nine instances of its occurring in the Old Testament, is translated by the LXX. [Septuagint] "Christos""

However, "mashiah" and "christos" both mean "anointed one", referring to a high priest or a leader. Why would that refer to Jesus, except that the Christos appallation was applied post-facto?

[Neo]

However, "mashiah" and "christos" both mean "anointed one", referring to a high priest or a leader. Why would that refer to Jesus, except that the Christos appallation was applied post-facto?

Was busy typing this up, fortunately refreshed before posting :)

As you say, the OT predicts a political leader or king, not a spiritual one, and this is what the Jews read in the OT and still is waiting for.

Some scholars say the prophesies fulfilled (virgin birth, donkey ride, etc.) was either inserted in the NT or Jesus (as a Jew) knew them and acted them out.

[Mr TB]

Was busy typing this up, fortunately refreshed before posting :)

As you say, the OT predicts a political leader or king, not a spiritual one, and this is what the Jews read in the OT and still is waiting for.

Some scholars say the prophesies fulfilled (virgin birth, donkey ride, etc.) was either inserted in the NT or Jesus (as a Jew) knew them and acted them out.

:) Sure... he knew about them and he acted them out... but there is only one way he knew it was all about him the King of Glory...

[Mr TB]

However, "mashiah" and "christos" both mean "anointed one", referring to a high priest or a leader. Why would that refer to Jesus, except that the Christos appallation was applied post-facto?
Irrelevant, the question posted "direct references to christ in the OT".

There is 39 references...

[PostmanPot]

dodo, which one(s) refers directly to Jesus Christ?

Everything you've shown us can refer to any Tom, Dick or Harry.

[Mr TB]

dodo, which one(s) refers directly to Jesus Christ?

Everything you've shown us can refer to any Tom, Dick or Harry.
All off them PP sit down and sort out the Greek and Hebrew...

Oh yes and a reference towards your mother concerning the children she will have is then also a reference to any Tom , Dick , or Harry... who says the reference was indeed meant for one of you?

[Neo]

All off them PP sit down and sort out the Greek and Hebrew...

Oh yes and a reference towards your mother concerning the children she will have is then also a reference to any Tom , Dick , or Harry... who says the reference was indeed meant for one of you?

Actually they refer to a guy called Omigosh, born in 134BC, in the town of Ramish, on the eastern side of the Dead Sea. He was a shepherd and destined to become the new king of the Jews. Unfortunately he choked on his goats milk and died before fulfilling the prophesies. It's all there in the OT...

You just need to sit down and sort out the Greek and Hebrew...

[Claymore]

Irrelevant, the question posted "direct references to christ in the OT".

There is 39 references...

So you're saying that there may be references to "Christ" in the OT, but that "Christ" is not necessarily Jesus?

[ghoti]

The answer depends whether your attitude towards the Bible is religious or historic.

From a religious point of view the answer is yes. Christian doctrine identifies some verses in the Old Testament as 'prophesizing' the advent of 'Jesus Christ'. (Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 11:13; Isaiah 53:7)

From an historic point of view the answer is as follows:

All those "predictions" in the Old Testament are only retrospective adaptations by the gospel authors. All those prophecies mentioned ( Isaiah, Psalms, etc.) outline the traditional mission of the Jewish people among the nations or refer clearly to other personalities like King David and by any means do not refer to any future personality. Those ideas were adopted retrospectively by the Gospel authors in order to amplify Jesus Christ's personality. The same argumentation is employed by Muslims about Muhammad in order to enhance his and the Muslim religion authority.

[PostmanPot]

Thanks w1z.

[noxibox]

I've said it before, a prediction is only of value if it can be clearly interpreted before something happens. Otherwise it's just news.

There isn't a single prediction in the Bible or any other religious book I know of that even comes close to being worth the paper on which it is printed.

[Mr TB]

Thanks w1z.

If you wish to view it that mate... ummm... in retrospect I find the "Theory of Evolution" or even science quite adaptive to what suites them best... :D

May be you should rather take a look at how evolution adapt everything to hide the errors in their argument. Especially running from the presupposition of the existence of life...ask CLAYMORE...

[Mr TB]

Whilst I am still a reasonable man...

Text from the Dead Sea Scrolls dated 335-100BCE. Isaiah 53

QUOTE:
"Translation of the actual Great Isaiah Scroll (Isaiah 53), beginning with line 5 of Column 44:

5. Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed And he shall come up like a suckling before him
6. and as a root from dry ground there is no form to him and no beauty [+to him+] and in his being seen and there is no appearance
7. that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
8. and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him. Surely our griefs he
9. is bearing and our sorrows he carried them and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God
10. and afflicted. and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities, the correction
11. of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us. All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way
12. we have turned and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not
13. open his mouth, as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open
14. his mouth. From prison and from judgment he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it because he was cut off from the land of
15. the living. Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him16. And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and [a scribbled word probably accusative sign "eth"] rich ones in his death
17. although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief.
18. If you will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH19. in his hand will advance. Of the toil of his soul he shall see {+light+} and he shall be satisfied and by his knowledge shall he make righteous
20. even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear. Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones21. and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors
22. he was numbered, and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated. "