Tarzan and Jesus

[Pr⊕phet]

A Conversation between Tarzan and Jesus

Taken from : Another Roadside Attraction by Tom Robbins


TARZAN: In the old days folks were more concrete. I mean they didn't have much truck with abstractions and spiritualism. they knew that when a body decomposed it made the crops grow. They could see with their own eyes that manure helped the plants along too. And they didn't need Adele Davis to figure out that eating plants helped them grow and sustained their own lives. So they picked up that there were connective links between blood and **** and vegetation. Between animal and vegetable and man.

When they sacrificed an animal to the corn crop, it was a concession to the obvious relation between death and fertility. What could be less mystical. Sure it was hoked up with ceremony but a little show biz is good for anyones moral. We were linked to vegetation. Nothing in the vegetable world succumbs. It simply drops away and then returns, energy is never destroyed. We planted out dead the way we planted our seeds. after a period of rest the energy of corpse or seed returned in one form or another.

From death came more life. We loved the earth because of the joy and good times and peace of mind to be had in loving it. we didn't have to be saved from it. we never plotted escapes to heaven. We weren't afraid of death because we adhered to nature and it cycles... The point is we had a unified outlook on life. we even figured out how the sun and moon and stars fit into the process.

We didn't draw distinctions between the procreative cycles of seeds and the procreative cycles of animals. We observed that growth and change were essential to everything in life, and since we dug life when it came time to satisfy our inner needs we naturally enough based out religion on the transformations of nature. We were direct about it. We went to the source...

Jesus kicked a pebble with the worn toe of his sandal "I've heard of the phallic and vegetation cults. Not very sophisticated. My father expects more of man than a primitive adoration of carnal nature. He must rise above..."

Rise to what Jesus? To abstractions? And alienation? Your scroll there, your book of Genesis says that in the beginning was the word. The simplest savage could see that in the beginning was the orgasm. Life is produced from life. While resurrection- the regeneration of seeds, the return of the spring leaves that fell in the autumn is of matter not spirit. Unsophisticated? Maybe it's unsophisticated to venerate mountains and regard rivers and sacred but as long as man thinks of his natural environment as hold then the going to respect it and not foul it up. We pagans have always sensed that mans roots were inorganic. Thats why we had respect even for stones.

"But you hadn't been saved..."

"Didn't need to be. Wasn't of any use to us."

http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/TarzanAndJesus.html

[FlyingPika]

Continue to mock Jesus as much as you want, you are just heaping up wrath unto yourself. You are just setting yourself up for a bigger fall. You may not need Jesus now, but when you have sinned against a Holy God and are guility, and have zero power of your own against the devil, will it still be cool to have trampled Jesus's payment for your sins under foot?

Just like the people when Noah was building the ark. They laughed and laughed and mocked him for years. When he sat in the boat for days and there was no sign of water from the sky they must of been canning themsevles. But when that first drop of rain fell from the sky, im sure their attitudes changed very quickly.

[Shadane]

Interesting concept. there is one question always asked: Do animals have the same God we do? If so why do the same rules not apply?

Do my kittens need to pray each night, or do they already have the oneness with God that the Fundamentalist only wish they could achieve?

[Pr⊕phet]

Shadane:
no not according to the masses all animals goes strait either to nowhere only humans go heaven/hell.

but maybe they also pass on.

[Pr⊕phet]

point of the article is this for those who can't grasp it:

that tarzan already lives in perfect harmony with the land and his people what more must he do.

[Tears In The Rain]

Pikachu, stop threatening people with hellfire and whatnot, or I'll have the tooth fairy kick your ass.

[Lycanthrope]

Pikachu, stop threatening people with hellfire and whatnot, or I'll have the tooth fairy kick your ass.

Personally I'm a much bigger fan of the Easter Bunny thanks to:

1. He exists to remind us of the eradication of one of the world's greatest irritants.
2. Chocolate eggs! I mean, seriously - who would want chocolate eggs???
3. Everyone knows chocolate eggs pwnz tooth enamel :D

I like that article, Necuno - thanks for the read. It denotes an excellent point of how the "god-delusion" can take humility and simplicity, beat it up with a frying pan, urinate on it and call it "religion" - pretty much bastardising everything that was just because people have a desire for power.

After all... Isn't that all that religion is about in the end? Power... who has it, who'll get it, who fears it, who should fear it and who doesn't need to fear it.

I don't remember where I heard or saw this, but... I recall a stick-figure being drawn in the middle of nothingness. He could fly around and float and exist - he had no laws that governed his world. He was then given land (a line :p). He now had something to walk on, to run, jump and sit on. He was then given a sky, plants, trees, animals, etc... I forget the details, but the moral of the story was, in a world without limits - there is nothing, and a world bound by laws, you're limitless in what you can do.

What I was trying to say - and badly, considering that I'm half asleep - is that a simple world, was taken by conquerors and fanatics and turnd into hell, and from hell it became civilisation.

I saw in a few threads so far, questions about if God came down and said, "I am God" if people would suddenly follow Him. I wouldn't... :) Not if He was the way so many people have made Him out to be. Granted, I have my own perception and beliefs on deities, and I don't believe in the Christian God, but I'll humour the point - as always.

I was thinking a funny, and hypothetical thought earlier today. Christians run around saying that people are going to burn in Hell for not believing in their God... I was wondering, if (HYPOTHETICALLY) it was that Christians would burn in Hell for serving God, would they still serve God? :) If the answer to that is yes, then how can they expect people from other religions and belief systems to follow their God, if those people are probably even more devout than these Christians are? It's such futile nonsense..

The world carries on... Hell is a place that exists in the minds of Christians :) It's their place of fear and torment... It's like an bibliophobe telling a bibliophile to be afraid of books... *shrug*

The world could be great if people enjoyed the world around them, and lived it to the fullest. lol... I was thinking, I'm gay, according to some Christians I'm going to burn in Hell anyway :) I love that logic... And it's one of the reasons I would never serve the God they claim to follow. Whether Hell is my destination or not - a God that forbids someone from being the way He made them, is a very hypocritical God :D

But that wasn't my point... Religion is man-made... It's all about power and who has it... And power is something that weak people want...

[alloytoo]

There's a short story by Harry Harrison, about a human trader on an alien planet.

It's a very nice place and the natives are kind and caring and honest and there's no crime whatsoever.

Then a missionary arrives on the next starship.

Anyway the Missionary gets to work straight away and the natives humour him (because it would be rude not to), but they really don't understand what he's going on about because their society is sinless.

But he keeps hammering away and hammering away.

Eventually the natives in an effort to understand take the missionary and Crucify him.

After three days he doesn't resurrect they're completely shattered.

So the traders asks them what they understand. They reply they understand murder now.

[Mr TB]

There's a short story by Harry Harrison, about a human trader on an alien planet.

It's a very nice place and the natives are kind and caring and honest and there's no crime whatsoever.

Then a missionary arrives on the next starship.

Anyway the Missionary gets to work straight away and the natives humour him (because it would be rude not to), but they really don't understand what he's going on about because their society is sinless.

Poor Harry Harrison is obviously only humouring himself... he clearly do not have a clue what the word sinless mean...

Secondly he is so foolish not to realise that christians understand that Christ did what He did for the human race...

Poor Harry Harrison he should apologise to Jesus for his sick story...

[Tux]

Poor Harry Harrison is obviously only humouring himself... he clearly do not have a clue what the word sinless mean...

Secondly he is so foolish not to realise that christians understand that Christ did what He did for the human race...

Poor Harry Harrison he should apologise to Jesus for his sick story...

Ponder the story, don't just judge it out of hand, there's a hidden message in there that escapes you at the moment

[Mr TB]

But he keeps hammering away and hammering away.

Eventually the natives in an effort to understand take the missionary and Crucify him.

After three days he doesn't resurrect they're completely shattered.

So the traders asks them what they understand. They reply they understand murder now.

I believe the hidden part of his sinister story is in this few lines, which I believe I indeed understand. Mocking Jesus however is not the way to bring your hidden message accross...

[Tux]

I do not see the natives mocking Jesus
I do see them trying to understand
But you still dont get the message

[Mr TB]

I do not see the natives mocking Jesus
I do see them trying to understand
But you still dont get the message
You missed the point , I am referring to Harry Harrison.

Yep I think I get the point, don't be a Bible-Thumper...

[Mr TB]

Interesting concept. there is one question always asked: Do animals have the same God we do? If so why do the same rules not apply?

Do my kittens need to pray each night, or do they already have the oneness with God that the Fundamentalist only wish they could achieve?
In my opinion your kittens only consist of a body and a soul, but not a spirit.
A human being consist of body soul and spirit.

Your soul in my opinion can be your brain-because when you are braindead you are also declared clinically dead is that correct?
One of the pastors I know liked to bring blood into the equation...

When the soul die you are left with , in the case of an animal only with the body, in the case of a human being not only with a body, but the spirit lives on awaiting judgment...

[Tux]

You missed the point , I am referring to Harry Harrison.

Yep I think I get the point, don't be a Bible-Thumper...

No, the point is that you are judging before you looked at all the possible angles

[alloytoo]

Poor Harry Harrison is obviously only humouring himself... he clearly do not have a clue what the word sinless mean...

Secondly he is so foolish not to realise that christians understand that Christ did what He did for the human race...

Poor Harry Harrison he should apologise to Jesus for his sick story...

Perhaps you should read the story.

[fivelza]

Personally I'm a much bigger fan of the Easter Bunny thanks to:

1. He exists to remind us of the eradication of one of the world's greatest irritants.
2. Chocolate eggs! I mean, seriously - who would want chocolate eggs???
3. Everyone knows chocolate eggs pwnz tooth enamel :D

I like the Easter bunny as well and especially the hard white eggs he brings ;)


I like that article, Necuno - thanks for the read. It denotes an excellent point of how the "god-delusion" can take humility and simplicity, beat it up with a frying pan, urinate on it and call it "religion" - pretty much bastardising everything that was just because people have a desire for power.

After all... Isn't that all that religion is about in the end? Power... who has it, who'll get it, who fears it, who should fear it and who doesn't need to fear it.

Unfortunately, people in general have a way of doing this, not limited to religion.


I don't remember where I heard or saw this, but... I recall a stick-figure being drawn in the middle of nothingness. He could fly around and float and exist - he had no laws that governed his world. He was then given land (a line :p). He now had something to walk on, to run, jump and sit on. He was then given a sky, plants, trees, animals, etc... I forget the details, but the moral of the story was, in a world without limits - there is nothing, and a world bound by laws, you're limitless in what you can do.

I don't understand your point here, bearing in mind it was 2am when you posted :D


I saw in a few threads so far, questions about if God came down and said, "I am God" if people would suddenly follow Him. I wouldn't... :) Not if He was the way so many people have made Him out to be. Granted, I have my own perception and beliefs on deities, and I don't believe in the Christian God, but I'll humour the point - as always.

I accept that you don't believe in the Christian God....I wouldn't always buy what other people make God out to be.


I was thinking a funny, and hypothetical thought earlier today. Christians run around saying that people are going to burn in Hell for not believing in their God... I was wondering, if (HYPOTHETICALLY) it was that Christians would burn in Hell for serving God, would they still serve God? :) If the answer to that is yes, then how can they expect people from other religions and belief systems to follow their God, if those people are probably even more devout than these Christians are? It's such futile nonsense..


Why would anyone 'serve' a god that promises a life of torment (hell) instead of everlasting life?


The world could be great if people enjoyed the world around them, and lived it to the fullest. lol... I was thinking, I'm gay, according to some Christians I'm going to burn in Hell anyway :) I love that logic... And it's one of the reasons I would never serve the God they claim to follow. Whether Hell is my destination or not - a God that forbids someone from being the way He made them, is a very hypocritical God :D

It is a pity that Christians pre-suppose what God thinks and does not think about someone who is gay and then based on their understanding judge. I do not believe ANY Christian has such a right.

[alloytoo]

I do not see the natives mocking Jesus
I do see them trying to understand
But you still dont get the message

I fear he never will.

[Pr⊕phet]

must be a mystery to the religious ;)

[Mr TB]

No, the point is that you are judging before you looked at all the possible angles
Oh what he is trying to say because the natives are aliens and the missionary judged them is that correct?

Or can I indeed correct Harry Harrison that no human being except Jesus Christ was sinless?

Which point are you trying to make?

[Tux]

Oh what he is trying to say because the natives are aliens and the missionary judged them is that correct?

Or can I indeed correct Harry Harrison that no human being except Jesus Christ was sinless?

Which point are you trying to make?

Now you're thinking, keep on going. You're on the right path
But he did mention that they were aliens and not humans..

[Mr TB]

A question to FIVELZA:


It is a pity that Christians pre-suppose what God thinks and does not think about someone who is gay and then based on their understanding judge. I do not believe ANY Christian has such a right.

Do you really believe that telling someone that an act, let us say like robbery or murder is wrong, is playing judge?

BTW I discussed this topic in an American forum and it was conceded that I am perfectly right, I was referring to acts and not people.
I have admiration for such people and we agreed to disagree on the subject because my source in their view is not reliable...
No allegation of pressupositions just proper application of my source although unreliable in their view...

[Pr⊕phet]

A question to FIVELZA:



Do you really believe that telling someone that an act, let us say like robbery or murder is wrong, is playing judge?

BTW I discussed this topic in an American forum and it was conceded that I am perfectly right, I was referring to acts and not people.
I have admiration for such people and we agreed to disagree on the subject because my source in their view is not reliable...
No allegation of pressupositions just proper application of my source although unreliable in their view...

care to link the forum - or does it also stack up to he BS rack MR TB/DOUWDOUW/ICHABOB

[fivelza]

A question to FIVELZA:

Do you really believe that telling someone that an act, let us say like robbery or murder is wrong, is playing judge?


I do believe that you are mixing up two things here, when you rob or murder you are making a conscious choice to do something wrong, when it comes to someone who is gay, I think the discussion becomes a whole lot more complicated and as such we as Christians should tread lightly when entering that territory.

[Lycanthrope]

Why would anyone 'serve' a god that promises a life of torment (hell) instead of everlasting life?

Yeah, sorry about my incoherence... Noticed a few slip-ups in that post :D My original point was, if you were told that the God you serve, would send you to Hell (even if you, as a Christian, believed that wouldn't happen), why would you believe that person? I just view in the same light. My devotion to my beliefs entail that I would sooner burn for an eternity in Hell than forsake them - after all, isn't that in itself a test of faith? *shrug*


It is a pity that Christians pre-suppose what God thinks and does not think about someone who is gay and then based on their understanding judge. I do not believe ANY Christian has such a right.


I apologise for bringing up the gay thing. That was just a personal perception of mine. I'd rather we not go down that road again - that thread was (FINALLY) locked. But I thank you for your opinion on it :)


I do believe that you are mixing up two things here, when you rob or murder you are making a conscious choice to do something wrong, when it comes to someone who is gay, I think the discussion becomes a whole lot more complicated and as such we as Christians should tread lightly when entering that territory.

And no, they pretty much believe murder/robbery is the same thing ;) There's a thread dedicated to that :D


I don't remember where I heard or saw this, but... I recall a stick-figure being drawn in the middle of nothingness. He could fly around and float and exist - he had no laws that governed his world. He was then given land (a line :p). He now had something to walk on, to run, jump and sit on. He was then given a sky, plants, trees, animals, etc... I forget the details, but the moral of the story was, in a world without limits - there is nothing, and a world bound by laws, you're limitless in what you can do.

I apologise again for not stating my point - 2AM hit me hard :D. My point was that I believe that beliefs or morals give us more freedom than if we had nothing. After all, the cookie always tastes better when you're not allowed to have it :) I believe that religion has its uses, but I also concede that not everyone needs or wants it.

The humble family of farmers were killed by crusaders for being heathens and leaving an offering on their lands to thank Nature for Her bounty.

A while back on CNN there was a short documentary on a black woman who was living in an African country somewhere (I forget the name)... She was a simple woman, with a simple family. She wasn't Christian, nor was her husband or anyone else in their family. But she was married, lived the simple life, and probably by all means lived by a routine. Then one day the soldiers came, killed her husband, gang-raped her in front of her son - hell, even asked her son to rape her, he refused, they shot him a few times (he still lived though). I remember what she said, "My husband was the only man I knew."

My point? This woman knew nothing of "evil" in the world. She knew nothing about sin. Yet evil came and knocked on her doorstep. Evil isn't a Christian concept. Yet I can't help but notice that so many Christians are adamant that what they consider to be evil, is evil.

I still remember Mr TB going off about how not even babies are innocent and suggesting that if they don't have "God" that they go to Hell heh... Yet whose opinion is that?

I keep derailing myself with new thoughts... But I'll stick to the original post... The world has never needed religion - it's always just been a safety net for people for all the "what ifs." I'd much be the humble; godless farmer than be the crusader killing the heathens. I'd much rather burn in Hell than have someone tell me what my truths in life are.

[fivelza]

I apologise for bringing up the gay thing. That was just a personal perception of mine. I'd rather we not go down that road again - that thread was (FINALLY) locked. But I thank you for your opinion on it :)

No need to apologise, I can fully understand why you have this perception.


I apologise again for not stating my point - 2AM hit me hard :D. My point was that I believe that beliefs or morals give us more freedom than if we had nothing. After all, the cookie always tastes better when you're not allowed to have it :) I believe that religion has its uses, but I also concede that not everyone needs or wants it.

Thanks for clarifying your point....I'm not sure religion has it's uses, but faith certainly has...IMHO


A while back on CNN there was a short documentary on a black woman who was living in an African country somewhere (I forget the name)... She was a simple woman, with a simple family. She wasn't Christian, nor was her husband or anyone else in their family. But she was married, lived the simple life, and probably by all means lived by a routine. Then one day the soldiers came, killed her husband, gang-raped her in front of her son - hell, even asked her son to rape her, he refused, they shot him a few times (he still lived though). I remember what she said, "My husband was the only man I knew."

My point? This woman knew nothing of "evil" in the world. She knew nothing about sin. Yet evil came and knocked on her doorstep. Evil isn't a Christian concept. Yet I can't help but notice that so many Christians are adamant that what they consider to be evil, is evil.

Yes, unfortunately Christians can be very preachy and 'holier than though'....been there, done that...it is probably the way in which Christians do the most damage to the faith.


I keep derailing myself with new thoughts... But I'll stick to the original post... The world has never needed religion - it's always just been a safety net for people for all the "what ifs." I'd much be the humble; godless farmer than be the crusader killing the heathens. I'd much rather burn in Hell than have someone tell me what my truths in life are.

And I submit that Christians should be humble.....

Thanks for your post, as always very good points :D

[tribble]

care to link the forum - or does it also stack up to he BS rack MR TB/DOUWDOUW/ICHABOB

Link, or it never happened.

[Pr⊕phet]

Link, or it never happened.

exactly

[ghoti]

4. Always state the sources of you facts. If you cannot source it, then don't bother using it or state it as assumed truth and wait for somebody to knock it over. If nobody can that truth shall stand until proven otherwise.

[Xarog]

4. Always state the sources of you facts. If you cannot source it, then don't bother using it or state it as assumed truth and wait for somebody to knock it over. If nobody can that truth shall stand until proven otherwise.
Not in this case. The assumed truth would actively require one to prove a negative in order to disprove it, which is just so logically backward as to border on being offensive.

[ghoti]

BTW I discussed this topic in an American forum and it was conceded that I am perfectly right,


Link, or it never happened.

um, dodo said something as a fact tribble is asking him to prove it with a source. What am I missing?

[Xarog]

I was basically commenting on this part :


... or state it as assumed truth and wait for somebody to knock it over.
It really really really shouldn't be an assumed truth, and I don't want anyone suggesting it should be such.