The Myth of the Holy Trinity

[Pr⊕phet]

as i allready questioned it here:
God, The Logos and spirit....
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=73587
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The bible clearly says there is no other god than God himself, no worshiping of other entities or idols maybe be made from that is from heaven above.

Jesus himself never said that he is god, and nor could he if you take the above in consideration.

then next question(s) comes to mind - was Jesus divine or not, was he honored with a divine seat to God for what he has done ?

he maybe be the king of kings, lord of lords but not a god or god - the Holy spirit and Jesus may NOT be worshiped as it is in violation to the 10 commandments and god's word.

now who are those 2 then, as to my first post i ventured that they are aspects of God and not separate entities as most would believe.

which still makes the story Jesus tad bit strange then - word of God becoming flesh, dies and goes back... does he stay there or reintegrate with God (which would make more sense)

further pondering on this resulting in some searches for 'king of kings' and so on which led to these sites [where to topic text came from]


The Myth of the Holy Trinity(http://www.submission.org/christians/templeton_trinity.html)


The Christian Church teaches that there is one God. Paradoxically, it also teaches that God is three persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost- and that they are not mere manifestations of the deity. The Father is God, the Son is God, and so is the Holy Ghost. And they are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existent.

Each, we are told, exists as an individual "person" but all three are "one God." As the familiar hymn puts it: "God in three persons; blessed Trinity.

But the concept will not bear examination. Matthew's Gospel tells us that before Mary of Nazareth became pregnant with the infant Jesus, the angel Gabriel appeared to the troubled Joseph - to whom she was betrothed - and told him not to be concerned, that "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.'

But the logic here is difficult to follow: If Jesus of Nazareth was, as the Christian church asserts, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, he was "begotten" by a member of his own family, the Holy Ghost.

Moreover, the purported facts of Jesus' birth seem to indicate that the members of the Holy Trinity are not, as the Apostle's Creed states, co-equal and co-eternal. The Father, for instance, is unmistakably senior. He is the creator, the law-giver, and the prime mover, and the Son and the Holy Ghost are subject to him and do his bidding. It is he who directs the Holy Ghost to impregnate Mary - apparently with no reference to the Son - and he who has a voice from Heaven announce at Jesus baptism, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."




In the Beginning God. Son of God or God the Son?, Unitarian Answers to Trinitarian Claims(http://www.submission.org/Balagh/Balagh02.html)


The very first words of the Bible are "In the beginning God." The first and central issue of the Bible is God. The beliefs and practices involved with this issue are therefore fundamental. It is no use going on to establish other beliefs and practices before this issue is settled. Fortunately the Bible is clear and consistent on this matter. The most important thing happens to be the thing expressed most clearly.

It is also true that there are in existence beliefs and practices relating to God which did not exist at the time when the Bible writers were writing. It must not surprise us then that these matters are not dealt with in the Bible at all. Throughout much of the Bible the issue is whether one must worship the God of the Bible uniquely, or whether it is permissible to worship other gods as well from time to time.

The Bible clearly states that the God of the Bible must be worshiped uniquely. No others may be worshiped. One of the main ways this is brought out is by the affirmation that God is one, or that there is only one God, the God of the Bible.

The text with the highest claim to authority in the Bible is the ten commandments. These are portrayed as being spoken by God Himself to a vast number of people, mostly descendants of Jacob, but including a vast internationally mixed multitude as well. The very first commandment is in Exodus 20:1-3: "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

The import of these words is radical. The sentence does not imply a hierarchy with the God of the Bible as the head of a pantheon of lesser deities below Him. We are confronted with only one speaker, the God who says "I" and "me." His message is that He will not accept any relations whatsoever between human beings and other gods.

The second commandment in verses 4-6 shows what precisely is unacceptable and what is necessary. It is unacceptable to make an image of anything to bow down to or serve, because God is jealous, that is, He does not accept other gods before Him. What is necessary is to love God and to obey His commandments.

It has now been established on the basis of the most authoritative texts in the Bible that the true faith of the Bible requires us to acknowledge the one God of the Bible alone as God, to avoid making any kind of image, mental or otherwise, of any deity to be bowed down to or served, but to love God and do what He tells us to do.

There are plenty of supporting texts for these first basic principles. Some of them are listed below. Those which claim to be the words of God are marked with a star.



"JESUS"
Myths & Message(http://www.submission.org/jesus.html)


Most people growing up in the West have a pretty definite idea of who Jesus Christ was and what he taught. Jesus of Nazareth was born of a virgin, grew up in Palestine and spent the later years of his rather short life teaching of the coming of the Kingdom of God. He began a new religion which was to become one of the driving forces in Western civilization. For those who worship him, he is the son of God, part of the Godhead, or God Himself. To millions of people, this is the truth. But is it?

Well, partially. Many of the major tenets of Christianity developed centuries after the death of Christ. Some of them are contrary to his actual teachings. We will examine some of these using the Bible itself as our main reference.

Then we will look at some revolutionary new developments in scriptural study. This new information is so comprehensive and conclusive that it offers us a new yardstick for evaluating and comparing traditional Christian understanding.

This is a big claim, and will necessarily be received with healthy skepticism, as any such claim should be. As detailed in Chapters 9 and 10, this evidence is an extremely intricate, computer decoded numerical structure which was discovered pervading ancient documents. The vastness and intricacy of this numerical structure is clearly super-human.



Jesus or the Church?(http://www.submission.org/Jesus22.html)


What is the definition of a Christian? Is he/she simply the one who goes to Church, or is he/she the one who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ?

On the surface it might seem that the two types of people are one and the same, however, with a closer look at the Bible and also the history of Christianity it becomes evident that there could well be a marked difference between the two.

It is not uncommon to find many Christians who have never read the complete Bible even once, let alone the history of Christianity! If any time is given it is spent by going to Church once in a while and listening to the local Minister or Priest, but never really questioning or investigating the truth of what is being said. Various doctrines, that are taken for granted, are never looked into to verify whether they have in fact an origin in the Bible or not.

If we start by looking into Christianity as a religion, when was it established and by who we find startling facts. All the first believers and followers of Jesus were Jews. Jesus himself lived all his life as a Jew. All the first followers of Jesus, and for the first 200 years prayed in the Synagogues. The earliest known Church was not built until the year 232 A. D., two whole centuries after Jesus died. That is found at Dura-Euphrates #1 (The History of Christianity, a Lion handbook, page 76).

Up till the time Jesus died Christianity, as a religion independent from Judaism, did not exist. In his own words, Jesus asserted that he did not come to establish a new religion, but instead he had come as the fulfillment of the prophecies in the Jewish Scripture (Old Testament):

[FlyingPika]

Lets first define God: Being able to do anything He wants to and knowing all things.
God is a title, so then:

The Father is God.
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God.


Now lets go into the details


Jesus himself never said that he is god, and nor could he if you take the above in consideration.
Well John 1:1 says that Jesus is God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus tells people to worship only God, but when they worship him he doesnt oppose.



John 10:30-38 (Amplified Bible)
30 I and the Father are One.

31Again the Jews [a]brought up stones to stone Him.

32Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. For which of these do you mean to stone Me?

33The Jews replied, We are not going to stone You for a good act, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere Man, make Yourself [out to be] God.

34Jesus answered, Is it not written in your Law, I said, You are gods?(A)

35So men are called gods [by the Law], men to whom God's message came--and the Scripture cannot be set aside or cancelled or broken or annulled--

36[If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I am not doing the works [performing the deeds] of My Father, then do not believe Me [do not adhere to Me and trust Me and rely on Me].

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me or have faith in Me, [at least] believe the works and have faith in what I do, in order that you may know and understand [clearly] [B]that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father [One with Him].


Matthew 16:13-17 (Amplified Bible)

13Now when Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, Who do people say that the Son of Man is?

14And they answered, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.

15He said to them, But who do you [yourselves] say that I am?

16Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and [a]to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.
Is the son of a human a human? Is the son of a duck a duck? And the only begotten Son of God is then a what?


Hebrews 1:8 (Amplified Bible)
8But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness).


Colossians 1:13-16 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13[The Father] has delivered and [a]drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

14In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins.

15[Now] He is the [c]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.

16[B]For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.
Note this is contrary to where you say that only God the Father does the creating.


[I]he maybe be the king of kings, lord of lords but not a god or god - the Holy spirit and Jesus may NOT be worshiped as it is in violation to the 10 commandments and god's word.

Since Jesus is God, lets now see that the Holy Spirit is also God:

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone does hurt to God's temple or corrupts it [with false doctrines] or destroys it, God will do hurt to him and bring him to the corruption of death and destroy him, For the temple of God is holy (sacred to Him) and that [temple] you [the believing church and its individual believers] are.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own.
So if the temple of God, or where God lives is in you, and the Holy Spirit lives in that temple (in you), then the Holy Spirit is also God.



which still makes the story Jesus tad bit strange then - word of God becoming flesh, dies and goes back... does he stay there or reintegrate with God (which would make more sense)
Jesus was there in the beginning (See John 1:1), became flesh by a miracle created by the Holy Spirit. Died and rose from the Dead and went back to heaven. At the right hand of the Father.


The very first words of the Bible are "In the beginning God." And the original Hebrew word used is a plural compound unit. Its the same word used when God says the husband and wife shall become one.
Some things are lost in translation.


The very first commandment is in Exodus 20:1-3: "And God spake all these words, saying, I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

The import of these words is radical. The sentence does not imply a hierarchy with the God of the Bible as the head of a pantheon of lesser deities below Him. We are confronted with only one speaker, the God who says "I" and "me." His message is that He will not accept any relations whatsoever between human beings and other gods.
Yes He even says he is a jealous God! There is one God, and you either worship him, or idols or lesser beings that want praise but aren't gods, i.e. demons (they arent gods because they are subject to God, and in the name of Jesus they must flee). Worship the only true God, or rebel against him and worship something else that isnt as worthy, its that simple.


What is the definition of a Christian?
Some1 who follows Christ examples and believes Christs teachings. A Christian is also some1 who believes the bible is Gods Word and acts on it.

The bible tells us lean not unto your own understanding, and the Lord will make your paths straight. Your quotes are obviously from some1 relying on his own intelligence, and not a Holy spirit lead believer who receives revelation and teaching from the Holy Spirit through Gods Word.

So in conclusion Jesus is God, and He is the way, the truth, and the Light, no man comes to the Father but by him. The only thing the devil doesnt want you to believe is it is by grace, and faith in Jesus Christ we are saved.

[FlyingPika]

some good links for you:
http://www.biblebell.org/theo/trinity.html
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/is-jesus-god-c.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-comfort/jw-jesus-god.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t005.html

[Pr⊕phet]

FlyingPika, thnx for your reply.

can you summarize what you are saying - not quit sure what you are pointing out.

some of your replied i am in agreement with:



Since Jesus is God, lets now see that the Holy Spirit is also God:


per



god itself with it's spirit (holy spirit) and it's logos(the word of god).


please point me out in my post where i said


Note this is contrary to where you say that only God the Father does the creating.


if you look closely for this word Quote: its from another one's words and not mine - hence we do the quoting...
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Well John 1:1 says that Jesus is God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus tells people to worship only God, but when they worship him he doesnt oppose.


before the word/logos was made flesh and sent to human word as the son of god without himself claiming to be god,

as i said it can be facets of god and not separate entities.
why would a god clearly say do not worship anything except me and jesus/angels/mary/holyspirit gets elevated to the worship status ?

and not its not satanic to think nor is it evil to sit and meditate on the things of god:

(Psalms 77:11-12 NKJV) I will remember the works of the LORD; Surely I will remember Your wonders of old. {12} I will also meditate on all Your work, And talk of Your deeds.

(Psalms 119:15-16 NKJV) I will meditate on Your precepts, And contemplate Your ways. {16} I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word.

(Psalms 119:27-28 NKJV) Make me understand the way of Your precepts; So shall I meditate on Your wondrous works. {28} My soul melts from heaviness; Strengthen me according to Your word.

[Pr⊕phet]

(for another thread rather but here how i see it)

Christian:

look how he lived, take his ways
use his teachings.

as simple as that.

a book, a church, a pastor is not it.

[FlyingPika]

Those scripture were just pointing out that Jesus is God, that was my main point.


another one's words and not mine - hence we do the quoting...
Ok, I should of been more precise, and said “where you posted" instead of "where you said". In my mind if you post something like that it means you agree with it, and hence the error I made.


Before the word/logos was made flesh and sent to human word as the son of god without himself claiming to be god.
Well the bible says they are one compound unit. And they each have a distinct personality, etc etc...(we dicussed this before in a previous thread) The bible says Jesus is God. Jesus said he is the Christ the anointed one. The son of God. Like I said above, the son of a duck is a duck. The son of a human is a human. Jesus says he is the son of God, which makes him a God.


As i said it can be facets of god and not separate entities.
why would a god clearly say do not worship anything except me and jesus/angels/mary/holyspirit gets elevated to the worship status?
Well if you read your bible, in revelations, when John began to worship that angel, that angel was really scarred and rebuked John right away and told him not to worship him. The last thing that angel was the wrath of God coming upon him if he was enjoying and basking in Johns praise. Nowhere in the bible does it say you must worship Mary or angels. The bible does however tell you to worship God, and that He is a spirit and he must be worshipped in "spirit and in truth". It also tells us Jesus is God. So isn it obvious?



and not its not satanic to think nor is it evil to sit and meditate on the things of god True. And what about saying God is a liar and his word is not his word?

If you dont believe the bible, but believe the teachings of Jesus, do you follow them? Do you believe when he said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out for it is better to enter into life maimed then to enter into hell whole?

Jesus preached more about hell then anything else, if you believe him do you obey his teachings? ie. No lying, no fornication, no adultery, no coveting, no hating, no lusting. If you have done any of those things Jesus says you will goto Hell. Are you willing to pay for you sins with your soul?

[Pr⊕phet]

Ok, I should of been more precise, and said “where you posted" instead of "where you said". In my mind if you post something like that it means you agree with it, and hence the error I made.


i should state more clearly too whether i am in agreement in my referred quotes or just merely have them for interest sake...



If you dont believe the bible, but believe the teachings of Jesus, do you follow them? Do you believe when he said that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out for it is better to enter into life maimed then to enter into hell whole?

Jesus preached more about hell then anything else, if you believe him do you obey his teachings? ie. No lying, no fornication, no adultery, no coveting, no hating, no lusting. If you have done any of those things Jesus says you will goto Hell. Are you willing to pay for you sins with your soul?


good question, but Jesus didn't have the bible as we have it today though - he had some scriptures at least i am sure, was it the Torah ?

[FlyingPika]

God says if a son asks a father for bread, will he give him a stone. And how much better will God whois Good give unto you when you ask him.

God has given us his word, and he says it is "God breathed", the writings are lead by the Holy spirit.

God also says heaven and earth will pass away before one dot of his word becomes void.

[PostmanPot]

.

[Pr⊕phet]

God says if a son asks a father for bread, will he give him a stone. And how much better will God whois Good give unto you when you ask him.

God has given us his word, and he says it is "God breathed", the writings are lead by the Holy spirit.

God also says heaven and earth will pass away before one dot of his word becomes void.

Jesus or Bible ?

as i said....

good question, but Jesus didn't have the bible as we have it today though - he had some scriptures at least i am sure, was it the Torah ?

how can He A-OK something that doesn't exist yet ?

[Pr⊕phet]

and.... ?

[cyghost]

God says if a son asks a father for bread, will he give him a stone. And how much better will God whois Good give unto you when you ask him.

God has given us his word,

When I was a true believer I asked God for many things. Not a single one I got. God lies.



God also says heaven and earth will pass away before one dot of his word becomes void.

Yes. And so about those laws you and others don't follow anymore... no, I apologize, I'll wait for your answer in our other thread...

[AcidRaZor]

Wow... okay, didn't read anything and I feel like such a n00b for not posting scripture or links or anything.

I had the same question and I asked my preacher, "Aren't we hypocrites for believing in the holy trinity if the commandment says we shouldn't pray to other gods?"

His words were, (and I'm sorry for those who don't speak afrikaans) "Luister mooi na die woord drie-eenigheid"

If you look up the word trinity in the dictionary, it says "Any union of three in one"

Meaning that the son of God, the holy spirit, and God, is one in the same.




When I was a true believer I asked God for many things. Not a single one I got. God lies.


God gives you exactly what you need when you need it irrespective of what you ask for. He knows what you really need. God won't deliberately put you through a tough situation in your life so that he can derive some sick pleasure of watching you squirm and struggle.

Everything at the end of the day happens exactly as it is suppose to. You grow as a person, you learn, you accept, you love.

A lot of people feel betrayed by God because they don't get what they want, or that something happens to them or their family that is deemed unfair. I might sound like the biggest optimist here spewing positive words out like you can't believe. But trust me I'm not.

I'm the biggest skeptic you'll find, I'm the most negative self-centered ******* you'll ever meet. But I _know_ whatever I will need, I will have.... because.... if a son asks a father for bread... he won't get a stone...

Perhaps the stone was to grind your own grain into flour to make the bread you dip**** lolzzomg!!! :D

[AcidRaZor]

Jesus or Bible ?

as i said....

good question, but Jesus didn't have the bible as we have it today though - he had some scriptures at least i am sure, was it the Torah ?

how can He A-OK something that doesn't exist yet ?

To give one's word is to promise. I'm sure he didn't mean a physical parchment with writings. If you follow the Christian faith I'm sure you'd know that Jesus is the son of God. Now... if that is true, you could assume that Jesus spoke directly to God.

So Jesus received a promise from his father and then told people what his father said?

Just a different take on what you might have been thinking ;)

[Pr⊕phet]

When I was a true believer I asked God for many things. Not a single one I got. God lies.



Yes. And so about those laws you and others don't follow anymore... no, I apologize, I'll wait for your answer in our other thread...

asking god for something is not going to make it happen anyways.

you know the law of attraction? the reality creation stuff..

ask is one part, but you have to believe in getting it and see youself getting it too.

if i speak to a tree - give me a promotion - nothing happens.

if i ask for surety from a divine, work to get there, see myself getting there and believe i will get there and are there already then results will follow.

[Pr⊕phet]

To give one's word is to promise. I'm sure he didn't mean a physical parchment with writings. If you follow the Christian faith I'm sure you'd know that Jesus is the son of God. Now... if that is true, you could assume that Jesus spoke directly to God.

So Jesus received a promise from his father and then told people what his father said?

Just a different take on what you might have been thinking ;)


interesting answer but it still evades the real question [ - we all can speak to the divine/god directly -]

and as i am almost certain now is that this trinity thing was decided by the early church fathers and then amended in the bible.

it was one thing with facets -

god is the logos and the spirit.

logos became flesh as Jesus (word of god)
spirit was given a name, the holy spirit.

if you deny the word of god you deny him, thus Jesus is the way.

Jesus read from the Torah not the Bible as we have it today.

The bible might have been gods divine words in its very first original form - Torah, Koran ???

the bible as it is today is:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=75077


simply put.
Jewish history + Jesus History = Bible

[AcidRaZor]

Yea, I started reading this book (never finished and can't remember its name) which is a whole history of Jews and how everything stems from one basic belief system etc.

We all can speak to the divine/god directly through prayer, you're correct, but my point was God spoke back to Jesus. Now, unless I'm THE ONLY ONE he doesn't speak to, I doubt that still happens today.

Which brings me to a random point. When I was at school we had this religious club thing (forget its name) where people would come and perform some arb dancing and singing about God and then say how they got there etc. They _ALL_ said, "God spoke to me and said I should give up 2 years of my life spreading the word"

Now, my first thought every time I hear this is "Why doesn't God speak to me, am I doing something wrong" which later turned into "Holy crap what are these people on? Crack?" to "Maybe they get paid to say this, who the hell can afford to take off for 2 years"

I know this probably belongs in a separate thread, but I just always wondered about that :D

[Nick333]

Yea, I started reading this book (never finished and can't remember its name) which is a whole history of Jews and how everything stems from one basic belief system etc.

We all can speak to the divine/god directly through prayer, you're correct, but my point was God spoke back to Jesus. Now, unless I'm THE ONLY ONE he doesn't speak to, I doubt that still happens today.

Which brings me to a random point. When I was at school we had this religious club thing (forget its name) where people would come and perform some arb dancing and singing about God and then say how they got there etc. They _ALL_ said, "God spoke to me and said I should give up 2 years of my life spreading the word"

Now, my first thought every time I hear this is "Why doesn't God speak to me, am I doing something wrong" which later turned into "Holy crap what are these people on? Crack?" to "Maybe they get paid to say this, who the hell can afford to take off for 2 years"

I know this probably belongs in a separate thread, but I just always wondered about that :D

God speaks to Benny Hinn all the time. Its like a couple hundred bucks a ticket to see BH, so God must tell him a lot of good stuff.

[Mr TB]

Yea, I started reading this book (never finished and can't remember its name) which is a whole history of Jews and how everything stems from one basic belief system etc.

We all can speak to the divine/god directly through prayer, you're correct, but my point was God spoke back to Jesus. Now, unless I'm THE ONLY ONE he doesn't speak to, I doubt that still happens today.

Which brings me to a random point. When I was at school we had this religious club thing (forget its name) where people would come and perform some arb dancing and singing about God and then say how they got there etc. They _ALL_ said, "God spoke to me and said I should give up 2 years of my life spreading the word"

Now, my first thought every time I hear this is "Why doesn't God speak to me, am I doing something wrong" which later turned into "Holy crap what are these people on? Crack?" to "Maybe they get paid to say this, who the hell can afford to take off for 2 years"

I know this probably belongs in a separate thread, but I just always wondered about that :D
Whilst you speaking on why God does not speak to me, I will share this with you...
I sat in a prayer meeting and at a point I said to the leader "I can't hear God", he showed sympathy and then we continued...

A pastor from Peru were in Kempton,so I attended and gave a short testimony in the prayer meeting. Elza Meyer a wonderful dominee was also at the Peru gathering and in my testimony I said when she spoke I heard God...

The leader of the prayer group nearly broke my hand... and then I realised I lied I can hear God when He speak!

Ask God for guidance... and then do...

Don't do like most christians do... do and then expect from God to bless what you do...
We bless others if we do what God want us to do... Joseph is a great example
And God blessed the Egyptian's(Potifar) house for the sake of Joseph...

[cyghost]

When I tell people Napoleon speaks to me they look at me funny and mumble about groen dakkies and medicine

When you tell people God speak to you people go hallelujah

thats just wrong

its the same delusion, trust me

[DragonLogos]

Water

[kilo39]

simply put.
Jewish history + Jesus History = Bible

Nah.

Jesus History = Christian Bible (did he not say my teachings should be taken before all else?) (I am the word of god therefore listen to me, and anything god said before is redundant.) ! :D

[Mr TB]

Nah.

Jesus History = Christian Bible (did he not say my teachings should be taken before all else?) (I am the word of god therefore listen to me, and anything god said before is redundant.) ! :D
...The bible=Part of God's word...

[Pr⊕phet]

interesting answer but it still evades the real question [ - we all can speak to the divine/god directly -]

and as i am almost certain now is that this trinity thing was decided by the early church fathers and then amended in the bible.

it was one thing with facets -

god is the logos and the spirit.

logos became flesh as Jesus (word of god)
spirit was given a name, the holy spirit.

if you deny the word of god you deny him, thus Jesus is the way.

Jesus read from the Torah not the Bible as we have it today.

The bible might have been gods divine words in its very first original form - Torah, Koran ???

the bible as it is today is:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=75077


simply put.
Jewish history + Jesus History = Bible

:rolleyes:

[Mr TB]

God speaks to Benny Hinn all the time. Its like a couple hundred bucks a ticket to see BH, so God must tell him a lot of good stuff.
Have you not read the book of RICK JOYNER?

"The Final Quest"

If you read it you will understand why plenty of christians that have been annointed drift away from God and do things that do not honour God....

Ex, Elijah-Elisha-Gehasi?

Elijah was annointed, Elisha student of Elijah was annointed X 2 but what happened to Gehasi student of Elisha?
Gehasi's love for money cost him his health...

BH have some wonderful teachings, however if you need to pay to attend a meeting/service...its heretic...

[ghoti]

They didnt have a bible for the first 400 years of christianity. Word of God... yeah right....

[DragonLogos]

H2 O

[Pr⊕phet]

o2 H ?

[DragonLogos]

Water - and what it is

[Pr⊕phet]

water is man term for some liquid and nonliquid thing

in this holo-world ;)

[DragonLogos]

It is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen

Happy 1K post BTW :)

[Pr⊕phet]

lol..... DL you have a scientific table close by atm ? ;)

[Claymore]

I have a periodic table, specially for creationists!

Table of the elements (http://pics.livejournal.com/claidheamhmor/pic/0001d377)

[mancombseepgood]

Yea, I started reading this book (never finished and can't remember its name) which is a whole history of Jews and how everything stems from one basic belief system etc.

We all can speak to the divine/god directly through prayer, you're correct, but my point was God spoke back to Jesus. Now, unless I'm THE ONLY ONE he doesn't speak to, I doubt that still happens today.

Which brings me to a random point. When I was at school we had this religious club thing (forget its name) where people would come and perform some arb dancing and singing about God and then say how they got there etc. They _ALL_ said, "God spoke to me and said I should give up 2 years of my life spreading the word"

Now, my first thought every time I hear this is "Why doesn't God speak to me, am I doing something wrong" which later turned into "Holy crap what are these people on? Crack?" to "Maybe they get paid to say this, who the hell can afford to take off for 2 years"

I know this probably belongs in a separate thread, but I just always wondered about that :D

Read "Is that really you, God" by Loren Cunningham

[Pr⊕phet]

Is that really you, God ?

good question...

[Pr⊕phet]

IJ, interesting

(from http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=69753)


I am a christian, but i don't believe in the trinity at all.

1 Joh 5:7 is no.1 scripture for any basis of the trinity. And that scripture doesn't even appear in earlier bibles.

It's the Father first, then the Son, and then the Holy Spirit.



Good example.

If the Holy Spirit is last, why is it you are only not forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but for the other two you are? The only scripture that comes to mind to support you point or view i can think of, is, when Jesus said his father is greater than himself, but that was while he was on earth and had put his Godhood aside (He gave us a perfect example of how to live, and what we could do when you follow Gods will and the Holy Spirit is within you). I think they are all equal, but as long as you believe Jesus took the punishment for your sins, the rest doesnt matter. Would you mind sharing why you believe theres an order to them?

On topic....

All three are God, But its just easy/convenient to refer to them as the trinity.
The bible doesnt mention the word trinity, but it does show that all three are god.

Genesis 1:1 Tells us in the beginning Gods created the universe.
John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

Remember when God came to Abraham before he destroyed Sodom and Gamora, he appeared as three people.
Remember when Phillip asked Jesus if they could see the father, Jesus said "whoever has seen me has seen the father, the father and i are one".

So if the temple of God, or where God lives is in you, and the Holy Spirit lives in that temple (in you), then the Holy Spirit is also God.

All three are so united in nature/thinking/intent if you know one you know the other two.

Now you may say the Jews know God the father, but the bible says there is one mediator between God the father and man, and that persons name is Jesus. You cant come before God in Sin. A holy God and sin dont mix.

Well then you may say you know the Holy Spirit, but you only have the Holy Spirit once you have repented of your sin and accept Jesus as your savior. The bible says which ever master you obey that is whom you serve. If you serve God then you will be saved, if not you will be free pickings to be dragged off to hell to where the master of this world, satan, resides. You are no match for him or his army no matter how cocky you might be.
'As i live', says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live', Ezek 33:11
"The Lord is no slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3:9

[mancombseepgood]

Is that really you, God ?

good question...

Keep going...?

[ghoti]

I wonder if anyone misses the irony of a monotheistic religion worshipping a triune God?

[mancombseepgood]

or the irony of not believing God is a person or more intelligent than us...

[Pr⊕phet]

Internet Junkie: "I am a christian, but i don't believe in the trinity at all"

and why may i ask do you are a Christian and not follow the whole trinity thing ?

[Pr⊕phet]

FlyingPika: "You cant come before God in Sin. A holy God and sin dont mix."

then how do you talk to god ? - Jesus please ask god for the answer for... ?

[mancombseepgood]

By faith in Christ in his atonement for your sin and by turning your back on sin - asking for forgiveness. There is living in sin / being in sin and turning your back on it... i.e. if you know of sin in your life, then do something about it... don't expect that you can have a close relationship with God while you are aware of sin in your life.