bodhi
30-11-2007, 08:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
View Full Version : Today 68 years ago the Soviet Union invaded Finland
Alan
30-11-2007, 08:23 PM
Yeah those Fins can fight. Must have been hell being in the Soviet infantry :sick::sick:
bodhi
30-11-2007, 08:26 PM
Amazing what the Finns accomplished against the Russians.
Due to the fact that the Soviet invasion of Finland took place 2 months after Germany invaded Poland , the Winter Was isn't that well known.
Due to the fact that the Soviet invasion of Finland took place 2 months after Germany invaded Poland , the Winter Was isn't that well known.
Skeptik
30-11-2007, 08:47 PM
Finland and Russia had a long history of skirmishes since the 16th Century. The history here is complex.
It's interesting that Finland fought with the Nazi Germans during the Great Patriotic War (WWii to us). The Soviets punished them heavily for that - and rightly so!
It's interesting that Finland fought with the Nazi Germans during the Great Patriotic War (WWii to us). The Soviets punished them heavily for that - and rightly so!
bodhi
30-11-2007, 09:14 PM
The most successful sniper in military history , Simo Häyhä , was from Finland.
He scored 505 kills during the Winter War.
He scored 505 kills during the Winter War.
Skeptik
30-11-2007, 09:31 PM
The most successfull sniper in military history , Simo Häyhä , was from Finland.
He scored 505 kills during the Winter War.
He killed a lot of Soviet conscripts. It wouldn't have taken a lot of skill to do that with a machine gun.
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
He scored 505 kills during the Winter War.
He killed a lot of Soviet conscripts. It wouldn't have taken a lot of skill to do that with a machine gun.
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
bodhi
30-11-2007, 09:51 PM
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Zaitsev was one of the best.
Ironically , German snipers preferred the Russian Mosin Nagant rifle over the Karabiner 98K (standard Wehrmacht bolt action rifle - 7.92mm).
At the moment away from my book collection - iirc Häyhä also used a SMG to score some of his kills.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Zaitsev was one of the best.
Ironically , German snipers preferred the Russian Mosin Nagant rifle over the Karabiner 98K (standard Wehrmacht bolt action rifle - 7.92mm).
At the moment away from my book collection - iirc Häyhä also used a SMG to score some of his kills.
Leitmotif
30-11-2007, 11:17 PM
He killed a lot of Soviet conscripts. It wouldn't have taken a lot of skill to do that with a machine gun.
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Hm. Do more research. Hayha's 505 *confirmed*sniper* kills were made with a Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle, not a machine gun. If that's not good enough for you, consider that he used iron sights, not a scope, because he believed a scope shows up too easily. And if that still isn't enough, consider that all of his kills were conducted within about 100 days, giving him an approximate figure of 5 sniper kills per day alone. Add to that an unconfirmed number of kills with a submachine gun - believed to be around 200 - and you have a total killcount of around 700. His tendency to go in for close combat proved to be his undoing, when he was taken out of the war by a bullet through the face. Imagine if he'd been active until the end...
As it was he did survive, but didn't recover quickly enough to rejoin the fighting. Finland produced some brilliant snipers during the winter war, though, and they did take up the slack.
On the other hand you have the "legendary" Vasily Zaitsev, most of whose kills are unconfirmed. Speculation leans toward him being a propaganda tool for the Soviets. His most well-known opponent, the german counter-sniper Koenig, doesn't even exist in any record. And for the record, Zaitsev was fighting german conscripts. What's the difference?
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Hm. Do more research. Hayha's 505 *confirmed*sniper* kills were made with a Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle, not a machine gun. If that's not good enough for you, consider that he used iron sights, not a scope, because he believed a scope shows up too easily. And if that still isn't enough, consider that all of his kills were conducted within about 100 days, giving him an approximate figure of 5 sniper kills per day alone. Add to that an unconfirmed number of kills with a submachine gun - believed to be around 200 - and you have a total killcount of around 700. His tendency to go in for close combat proved to be his undoing, when he was taken out of the war by a bullet through the face. Imagine if he'd been active until the end...
As it was he did survive, but didn't recover quickly enough to rejoin the fighting. Finland produced some brilliant snipers during the winter war, though, and they did take up the slack.
On the other hand you have the "legendary" Vasily Zaitsev, most of whose kills are unconfirmed. Speculation leans toward him being a propaganda tool for the Soviets. His most well-known opponent, the german counter-sniper Koenig, doesn't even exist in any record. And for the record, Zaitsev was fighting german conscripts. What's the difference?
PeterCH
01-12-2007, 01:31 AM
You can't really blame the Fins for siding with the Nazis, as the Soviets were really out to get them. A similar situation existed with the Japanese, while they sided with the Germans they were mistrustful of them, in fact Japan never declared war on Poland for instance, the Polish ambassador worked in Tokyo to help get Jews out of Poland/Ukraine into Japan together with his Japanese counterpart in Ukraine. When an SS officer asked the Japanese to put Jews in China in ghettos, Tokyo told him to F-off while Gen Yamamoto on touring Germany during WW2 refused to dishonour himself by meeting with Hitler. Wars are not
cut and dry and friends of enemies are not always your direct enemies either.
cut and dry and friends of enemies are not always your direct enemies either.
rwenzori
01-12-2007, 07:02 AM
Now there is a Russian sniper called Vasily Zaitsev who challenged a better adversary - the German army.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Zaitsev gets a few minutes telling some of his tale, as a grey-haired older man, in the documentary Blood Upon The Snow - Russia's War. Interesting to see him.
In his first two weeks, he fired 43 bullets, and felled 42 men. "One shot, One kill,":eek:
Zaitsev gets a few minutes telling some of his tale, as a grey-haired older man, in the documentary Blood Upon The Snow - Russia's War. Interesting to see him.
neio
01-12-2007, 07:21 AM
"Enemy at the Gates" is a movie about Zaitsev. Good movie btw.
Leitmotif
01-12-2007, 09:50 AM
"Enemy at the Gates" is a movie about Zaitsev. Good movie btw.
Good movie. Mostly fiction. Its poster also features the only left-handed Mosin-Nagant I've ever seen - someone should've mentioned the bolt handle to whoever decided to flip that picture. :p
Good movie. Mostly fiction. Its poster also features the only left-handed Mosin-Nagant I've ever seen - someone should've mentioned the bolt handle to whoever decided to flip that picture. :p
Tux
01-12-2007, 09:53 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyodor_Okhlopkov
Skeptik
01-12-2007, 12:02 PM
You can't really blame the Fins for siding with the Nazis, as the Soviets were really out to get them. A similar situation existed with the Japanese, while they sided with the Germans they were mistrustful of them, in fact Japan never declared war on Poland for instance, the Polish ambassador worked in Tokyo to help get Jews out of Poland/Ukraine into Japan together with his Japanese counterpart in Ukraine. When an SS officer asked the Japanese to put Jews in China in ghettos, Tokyo told him to F-off while Gen Yamamoto on touring Germany during WW2 refused to dishonour himself by meeting with Hitler. Wars are not
cut and dry and friends of enemies are not always your direct enemies either.
At the end of the day we all have choices. With such a low population, they could have remained neutral, but, like other countries, decided Germany was going to win and were therefore going to get the spoils when it was all over - namely disputed parts of Russia.
Also, Russia offered them a deal before the war, of ceding 25km of Finnish territory or be RECONQUERED, which was refused. At the end, when the Fins realised they had lost, they then tried to make deal (silly, silly).
They didn't have to send Fins to join the SS.
They didn't have to send Russian civilians to concentration camps.
They didn't have to send POWs to the Nazis.
Out of 64,188 Soviet POWs, 18,318 died in Finnish prisoner of war camps
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/Konclagers.jpg/180px-Konclagers.jpg
After the war, based on the testimonies of the former prisoners of war, criminal charges were preferred against 1381 Finnish camp staff, resulting in 723 convictions and 658 persons released. They were accused of 42 executions, 242 murders. There were the seven cases led death under the request of former prisoners, 10 cases of death as a result of the tortures, eight infringements of the property rights, 280 official infringements and 86 other crimes.
At one stage even Britain declared war on them. And as I said, the Soviets didn't forgive easily.
The Fins were brave, but sided with the wrong people out of hatred for the Soviets. A classic mistake, which cost them dearly.
@Leitmotif
The Soviets attacked in regimental strength, with their dark uniforms easily visible against the white snow, so they were easily targeted by the Finns' snipers and machine guns.
Often, they (the Fins) opted not to engage the enemy in conventional warfare, instead targeting field kitchens (which were crucial for survival in the cold weather) and picking off Soviet troops huddled around camp fires.Wiki
...The deployment of poorly trained and badly led Soviet troops gave the advantage to the Finns,...
cut and dry and friends of enemies are not always your direct enemies either.
At the end of the day we all have choices. With such a low population, they could have remained neutral, but, like other countries, decided Germany was going to win and were therefore going to get the spoils when it was all over - namely disputed parts of Russia.
Also, Russia offered them a deal before the war, of ceding 25km of Finnish territory or be RECONQUERED, which was refused. At the end, when the Fins realised they had lost, they then tried to make deal (silly, silly).
They didn't have to send Fins to join the SS.
They didn't have to send Russian civilians to concentration camps.
They didn't have to send POWs to the Nazis.
Out of 64,188 Soviet POWs, 18,318 died in Finnish prisoner of war camps
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/Konclagers.jpg/180px-Konclagers.jpg
After the war, based on the testimonies of the former prisoners of war, criminal charges were preferred against 1381 Finnish camp staff, resulting in 723 convictions and 658 persons released. They were accused of 42 executions, 242 murders. There were the seven cases led death under the request of former prisoners, 10 cases of death as a result of the tortures, eight infringements of the property rights, 280 official infringements and 86 other crimes.
At one stage even Britain declared war on them. And as I said, the Soviets didn't forgive easily.
The Fins were brave, but sided with the wrong people out of hatred for the Soviets. A classic mistake, which cost them dearly.
@Leitmotif
The Soviets attacked in regimental strength, with their dark uniforms easily visible against the white snow, so they were easily targeted by the Finns' snipers and machine guns.
Often, they (the Fins) opted not to engage the enemy in conventional warfare, instead targeting field kitchens (which were crucial for survival in the cold weather) and picking off Soviet troops huddled around camp fires.Wiki
...The deployment of poorly trained and badly led Soviet troops gave the advantage to the Finns,...
bodhi
01-12-2007, 12:07 PM
While Finland lost the Winter war, it cost the Soviets 1,000,000 men killed out of the 1,500,000 man invading force*. The Finns lost a total of 25,000 men in that conflict. A testament to their bravery and determination in the face of amazing odds.
Rifles of the White Death by Doug Bowser. Camellia City Military Publications
Rifles of the White Death by Doug Bowser. Camellia City Military Publications
Nanfeishen
01-12-2007, 12:10 PM
The Finnish Air force didnt do to bad either, with one of the greatest Air Aces emerging from the war, Ilmari Juutilainen with 94 confirmed "kills" in 437 sorties, never losing a wingman :eek: awesome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmari_Juutilainen
The greatest Air Ace of All , Erich Hartmann , 352 victories ,260 of which were fighters in 1,404 combat missions and engaging in aerial combat 825 times , never forced to land through enemy fire, only through bits of enemy planes , also never lost a wingman.
Was taught to fly by his mother :D
Quoted as saying :" I find dogfighting a waste of time"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann
A list of air aces of WW2, the first Royal Air Force pilot, and excluding Russians, as top Allied Aces, is a South African ..Marmaduke 'Pat' Pattle
:cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_World_War_II_aces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pattle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmari_Juutilainen
The greatest Air Ace of All , Erich Hartmann , 352 victories ,260 of which were fighters in 1,404 combat missions and engaging in aerial combat 825 times , never forced to land through enemy fire, only through bits of enemy planes , also never lost a wingman.
Was taught to fly by his mother :D
Quoted as saying :" I find dogfighting a waste of time"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann
A list of air aces of WW2, the first Royal Air Force pilot, and excluding Russians, as top Allied Aces, is a South African ..Marmaduke 'Pat' Pattle
:cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_top_World_War_II_aces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pattle
bodhi
01-12-2007, 07:19 PM
Finns gave the petrol bomb aka the Molotov cocktail its unique name during the Winter War.
When Soviet People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs Vyacheslav Molotov claimed in radio broadcasts that the Soviet Union was not dropping bombs but rather delivering food to the starving Finns, the Finns started to call the air bombs Molotov bread baskets.[2] Soon they responded by attacking advancing tanks with “Molotov cocktails.” At first the term was used to describe only the burning mixture itself, but in practical use the term was soon applied to the combination of both the bottle and its contents. This Finnish use of the hand- or sling-thrown explosive against Soviet tanks was repeated in the subsequent Continuation War. Molotov cocktails were eventually mass-produced by the Alko corporation at its Rajamäki distillery, bundled with matches to light them. Production totalled 450,000 during the Winter War. The original design of Molotov cocktail was a mixture of ethanol, tar, and gasoline in a 750 ml bottle. The bottle had two long pyrotechnic storm matches attached either side. Before use one or both of the matches was lit; when the bottle broke on impact, the mixture ignited. The storm matches were found to be safer to use than a burning rag on the mouth of the bottle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail
At the moment away from my book collection - hence the "all knowing" Wikipedia quote :D
When Soviet People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs Vyacheslav Molotov claimed in radio broadcasts that the Soviet Union was not dropping bombs but rather delivering food to the starving Finns, the Finns started to call the air bombs Molotov bread baskets.[2] Soon they responded by attacking advancing tanks with “Molotov cocktails.” At first the term was used to describe only the burning mixture itself, but in practical use the term was soon applied to the combination of both the bottle and its contents. This Finnish use of the hand- or sling-thrown explosive against Soviet tanks was repeated in the subsequent Continuation War. Molotov cocktails were eventually mass-produced by the Alko corporation at its Rajamäki distillery, bundled with matches to light them. Production totalled 450,000 during the Winter War. The original design of Molotov cocktail was a mixture of ethanol, tar, and gasoline in a 750 ml bottle. The bottle had two long pyrotechnic storm matches attached either side. Before use one or both of the matches was lit; when the bottle broke on impact, the mixture ignited. The storm matches were found to be safer to use than a burning rag on the mouth of the bottle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail
At the moment away from my book collection - hence the "all knowing" Wikipedia quote :D