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  • SA considering rhino horn trade


    South Africa is considering whether to approach the international community with a proposal to trade in rhino horn, Environment Minister Edna Molewa told MPs on Wednesday.

    Opening debate in the National Assembly on her department's budget, she said this included engaging "major role players, including international and regional partners [and] potential consumer states".

    Molewa's remarks come 10 months ahead of the 16th congress of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (Cites), set to take place in Bangkok, Thailand, in March next year.

    According to reports, South Africa is sitting on an estimated 20-ton stockpile of rhino horn; some of it in private hands, some stored by conservation authorities.

    The price of the horn, should the Cites moratorium on trade be lifted, has been estimated at more than R500,000 a kilogram.

    Molewa has declined to say how much rhino horn is held by government-managed parks and reserves.

    "Due to security risks, the department cannot publicly announce the amount of stocks being held by these agencies," she said earlier this year.

    On Wednesday, she said her department was involved in an "extensive" preparatory process ahead of the Cites congress.

    "This will include discussions on whether or not to approach the international community with a proposal to trade in rhino horn."

    On the rhino poaching crisis in South Africa, Molewa said 199 rhino had been killed so far this year.

    "We are very, very deeply concerned," she told the House.

    Earlier, briefing journalists at Parliament, Molewa said South Africa would not table a document at the next Cites meeting calling for the rhino horn trade moratorium to be lifted.

    "No, not this time around. We are still considering all options, as well as probabilities towards that direction. We have not decided yet. Let it be clear.

    "We are still doing some very serious work in analysing whether we need to move in that direction or not."

    Among the things that needed to be done before trade could be resumed was "to ensure we get to know who the partners are on the other side".

    Policies had to be in place "that do not allow any shena****ns to operate in the system," Molewa said.

    "There are just too many things to do before we can place the discussion before the conference of parties. We are not yet there."
    Comments 134 Comments
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      Wow. Because people earn money to pay a monthly installment on rhino's that we can own and stealing them is poaching.

      We get it dude, you don't understand economics whatsoever, that's why you brought up DVD's as an analogy too and scoffed off the idea of substitute goods.
      Try again - in English. I am sure you could get some scholarly help in trying to string a coherent thought together.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Quote Originally Posted by Albereth View Post
      Try again - in English. I am sure you could get some scholarly help in trying to string a coherent thought together.
      Your attempts at insulting are pretty pathetic.
      If you don't understand what I'm talking about it only proves my point that you don't understand the economic situation. Obviously certain terms put you off.

      Have a nice day in your little bubble.
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      Your attempts at insulting are pretty pathetic.
      If you don't understand what I'm talking about it only proves my point that you don't understand the economic situation. Obviously certain terms put you off.

      Have a nice day in your little bubble.
      Attempts at insults? I have attempted no such thing. And if I don't understand what you are talking about may have more to do with your communication skills, or lack thereof, than my grasp of the situation.

      Perhaps you could get your mom to write it out for you?
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Quote Originally Posted by Albereth View Post
      Attempts at insults? I have attempted no such thing. And if I don't understand what you are talking about may have more to do with your communication skills, or lack thereof, than my grasp of the situation.

      Perhaps you could get your mom to write it out for you?
      That's hilarious

      As I said before, because you don't understand the concept, the opposing person is wrong in your mind. It's a logical fallacy.
      You have ZERO understanding of the issue. You bring up inane analogies to support your more inane beliefs.

      Try another insult, it will hide that fact.
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      That's hilarious

      As I said before, because you don't understand the concept, the opposing person is wrong in your mind. It's a logical fallacy.
      You have ZERO understanding of the issue. You bring up inane analogies to support your more inane beliefs.

      Try another insult, it will hide that fact.
      I really don't mind that you are wrong. It doesn't make me think any less of you. Nothing could. But rather than leaving you stewing all day, I do understand your concept. You really believe that flooding the market with cheap rhino horn will cause poachers to immediately give up their day (and night) jobs because they just can't compete with cheap. You also believe that 20 tonnes of rhino horn will satisfy the needs of every single idiot out there in curing their ED, cancer, or incomprehensible writing maladies. And you believe that rhino farming is easy and that governments sponsor this sort of thing.

      So what is not to understand?

      It's just bollocks.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Flooding the market will drop prices. If Chinese man can get Rhino horn for $500 instead of $1000, he buys from the legal source.
      When a poacher who sold for $1000 can only sell $500 now he is less likely to poach. Selling it at $1000 won't attract any buyers and he wouldn't want to risk going to jail or getting killed over half of what he used to get.

      Tell me. If your salary was halved if you would stay or find another job?
      If you stay, then I will agree that you understood me since that is what you are suggesting.

      And now here's your BS where its pretty clear you didn't understand me.
      I never, not once in this thread said 20 tonnes will satisfy rhino demand forever, my suggestion was that through the revenue the government gets they could set up farms which leads us to another thing you didn't understand, I never not once said it was easy to farm rhino's.

      Now that you typed out for everyone to see how your English comprehension skills are I'm off. It's almost 2am here.
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      Flooding the market will drop prices. If Chinese man can get Rhino horn for $500 instead of $1000, he buys from the legal source.
      When a poacher who sold for $1000 can only sell $500 now he is less likely to poach. Selling it at $1000 won't attract any buyers and he wouldn't want to risk going to jail or getting killed over half of what he used to get.

      Tell me. If your salary was halved if you would stay or find another job?
      If you stay, then I will agree that you understood me since that is what you are suggesting.

      And now here's your BS where its pretty clear you didn't understand me.
      I never, not once in this thread said 20 tonnes will satisfy rhino demand forever, my suggestion was that through the revenue the government gets they could set up farms which leads us to another thing you didn't understand, I never not once said it was easy to farm rhino's.

      Now at you typed out for everyone to see how your English comprehension skills are I'm off. It's almost 2am here.
      Any grown up will do.

      You do know that there are people out there who'd quite happily shoot a rhino for $10. If I was being paid $1 000 000 a month and you halved it, I'd still carry on. Why not? Pay is still good. But if you told me that I had to grow my own rhino and you'd pay half of the initial stock I'm probably about R500 000 out. Stuff it. I'll just come and shoot yours.

      Interesting notion that you have about the efficiency of governments.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Quote Originally Posted by Albereth View Post
      Any grown up will do.
      You got nothing to say? It's funny when facts and logic smacks your face huh?
    1. Nerfherder's Avatar
      Nerfherder -
      Quote Originally Posted by Albereth View Post
      Any grown up will do.

      You do know that there are people out there who'd quite happily shoot a rhino for $10. If I was being paid $1 000 000 a month and you halved it, I'd still carry on. Why not? Pay is still good. But if you told me that I had to grow my own rhino and you'd pay half of the initial stock I'm probably about R500 000 out. Stuff it. I'll just come and shoot yours.

      Interesting notion that you have about the efficiency of governments.
      I'm sure there are people who would shoot a rhino for R10... the point is that its not being done by those people. Its being done buy highly trained organized crime, they are in it for the big money. This is why they are so effective, they hire vets and they have helicopters with proper hunters. These guys are not poor
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by Nerfherder View Post
      I'm sure there are people who would shoot a rhino for R10... the point is that its not being done by those people. Its being done buy highly trained organized crime, they are in it for the big money. This is why they are so effective, they hire vets and they have helicopters with proper hunters. These guys are not poor
      I am pretty sure that the shooting is being done by the $10 guy and the high tech helicopter guy. Why would you limit yourself to a single source?
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Does anyone know where the 20 tonnes of rhino horn figure comes from? I know that I've used it in this thread but I found it here. According to some figures, the average weight of a rhino horn is 2.88kg. That's getting on for around 7000 dead rhino.

      Again from figures around the net, that's more than there are live black rhino, or around a third of the number of white rhino.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Quote Originally Posted by Albereth View Post
      Any grown up will do.

      You do know that there are people out there who'd quite happily shoot a rhino for $10. If I was being paid $1 000 000 a month and you halved it, I'd still carry on. Why not? Pay is still good. But if you told me that I had to grow my own rhino and you'd pay half of the initial stock I'm probably about R500 000 out. Stuff it. I'll just come and shoot yours.

      Interesting notion that you have about the efficiency of governments.

      How many poacher's you think would be willing to risk prison or death for $10? And I hope you understand that they don't earn $1000000 , that's a dumb argument if a poacher earned that much they are set after one go but they probably earn from a few hundreds to a few thousand Rands. These things are run by crime syndicates with connection to black market importers, how many poachers from poor villages you think know of the Chinese/Vietnames/Yemeni people who are the ones demanding ivory?

      But let's use your number. Let's say those crime syndicates earned $1000000 but ends up earning half that much, remember they have an opportunity cost too (they can be caught, put to jail) and now since they earn half as much, how many of these pepople in this crime syndicate do you think will remain? A lot will leave. The same way you will leave your job if you earned half as much. Poaching, like anything else in the world, is run by incentive.

      Once again you assert that all poaching will stop when I have never said this. It's rather pathetic how you claim that my English is bad as a result of you being so illiterate that this entire thread you have been failing to understand me. Honestly, its cute, but stop trying and sit down, its just embarrassing for you.

      The government doesn't even need to be efficient, they just need to make laws and the market will do its own thing.

      Before you start screaming how you don't understand my post again, read up on the stuff before making stupid comments will you?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentive#Economics
    1. DJ...'s Avatar
      DJ... -
      Gotta agree with boramk on this one. There is no sound economic reasoning for not going the farming route...
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      How many poacher's you think would be willing to risk prison or death for $10? And I hope you understand that they don't earn $1000000 , that's a dumb argument if a poacher earned that much they are set after one go but they probably earn from a few hundreds to a few thousand Rands. These things are run by crime syndicates with connection to black market importers, how many poachers from poor villages you think know of the Chinese/Vietnames/Yemeni people who are the ones demanding ivory?

      But let's use your number. Let's say those crime syndicates earned $1000000 but ends up earning half that much, remember they have an opportunity cost too (they can be caught, put to jail) and now since they earn half as much, how many of these pepople in this crime syndicate do you think will remain? A lot will leave. The same way you will leave your job if you earned half as much. Poaching, like anything else in the world, is run by incentive.

      Once again you assert that all poaching will stop when I have never said this. It's rather pathetic how you claim that my English is bad as a result of you being so illiterate that this entire thread you have been failing to understand me. Honestly, its cute, but stop trying and sit down, its just embarrassing for you.

      The government doesn't even need to be efficient, they just need to make laws and the market will do its own thing.

      Before you start screaming how you don't understand my post again, read up on the stuff before making stupid comments will you?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitute_good
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incentive#Economics
      Bless.

      Truth is that you write rubbish, or pay absolutely no attention to what you have typed.

      And don't try and change what I have said. You not even doing it to suit you own argument. I do understand what you have been trying to say even though you try and dispute that. But no matter.

      In my view you are talking bollocks.

      And rhino horns aren't ivory.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      If you had the ability to dispute my points you would have done so but you don't. Its because you are like a child who doesn't understand what's going on. And now you are just butthurt because I'm not the only one who has this view.

      If you disagree with the economics, its fine by me, you are the ignorant one here. That's why on can only reply with "its bollocks" instead of actually making a constructive post engaging my points.
    1. Nicodeamus's Avatar
      Nicodeamus -
      you know I have a few friends in conservation and they have been saying things like this for year, currently Rhino owners cannot generate enough funds to protect their rhinoes and the police is unreliable.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Interesting, your friends are in conservation and also have this view? They must be wrong according to our friend Alberth
    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      If you had the ability to dispute my points you would have done so but you don't. Its because you are like a child who doesn't understand what's going on. And now you are just butthurt because I'm not the only one who has this view.

      If you disagree with the economics, its fine by me, you are the ignorant one here. That's why on can only reply with "its bollocks" instead of actually making a constructive post engaging my points.
      I did.

      But there are none so blind as those that won't see.

      So carry on.
    1. boramk's Avatar
      boramk -
      Lol sure.

      "How can you say farming rhino's is easy?" - never said that. Meanwhile advocates de-horning every rhino anyways.
      "How does increasing rhino horns to the market bring down prices". Meanwhile doesn't understand demand and supply's price mechanism effect.
      "Even if poachers get half their income, they will still poach". Meanwhile would quit his job when income is halved as incentives apply to everyone except poachers.

    1. Albereth's Avatar
      Albereth -
      Quote Originally Posted by boramk View Post
      Interesting, your friends are in conservation and also have this view? They must be wrong according to our friend Alberth
      It's Albereth but we've already discussed your inability to concentrate.

      Now try reading carefully what he is saying. It isn't that conservationists agree that rhino should be farmed. He is saying that conservationists are at the end of their tethers in dealing with the scourge of poaching brought about by Chinese and Vietnamese idiots. Going this route gives them something back. Nobody wants to own rhino these days because you can't get them insured. And there is a damn good chance that someone wants to kill it for a few quick bucks.

      There is a demand for rhino horn and there is enough incentive for some one to satisfy that demand. Way back in the mists of time it may have been that there was a supply that led to the demand. Doesn't matter. We now have idiots who want horn. The best thing to do would be to kill the demand. But no. You want to feed the demand.

      And that's our departure point.

      So where is yor coherent argument for the merits of farming. On don't just say because it will make black market horn unprofitable.
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