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Thread: Miracles:

  1. #1

    Default Miracles:

    - Posting in Philosophical Debates section but my question isn't really philosophical more on religion -

    Is there a biblical reason given for the lack of miracles in our time as opposed to the plethora that seem to occur in biblical times?

    Do other religious books/writing contain accounts of miracles?

  2. #2
    Super Grandmaster alloytoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaib View Post

    Do other religious books/writing contain accounts of miracles?
    Lets define a written account of a miracle......I can name thousands of comics and novels containing written accounts of 'miracles'
    a2

    #Trendingsucks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waaib View Post
    Do other religious books/writing contain accounts of miracles?
    Of course they do. All religions have tales of miracles(AFAIK).
    It's sorta like one of the requirements isn't it?

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    Super Grandmaster cerebus's Avatar
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    That's quite a good question so I'll give it a shot.

    Firstly there are miracles still in this age such as healings. I've heard of people who have both experienced and delivered healing in a miraculous sense, heard stories of babies being healed overnight of chronic illnesses (by reputable people). The NT records instances of such miracles, and church history is full of such accounts.

    However you're also quite right that the nature of miracles in the NT age is very different from those in the OT. We don't have talking donkeys, parting seas, prolonged days, etc. If anything the NT tends to play down the significance of miracles.

    For instance in connection with tongue speaking Paul said:
    But in the church I would rather speak¬ five╣ words with╣ my mind, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
    .

    Related to healing he said:
    Concerning this I entreated the Lord three¬ times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, My grace╣¬ is sufficient for you, for My power╣¬ is perfected in weakness.¬
    When referring to Timothy, rather than heal his condition, he advised:
    No longer drink water only, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses
    Even Jesus refused to perform some kinds of miracles, saying that they were a sign of unbelief:
    But¬ He answered and said to them, An evil¬ and adulterous generation╣ seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
    And Paul confirmed this word:
    For indeed Jews require signs╣¬ and Greeks seek wisdom, But we preach¬ Christ╣ crucified,¬ to Jews a stumbling¬ block, and to Gentiles foolishness,¬
    When Jesus was tempted by Satan three times to perform a miracle, on all three times He refused. When He was being judged, He said that God could call down angels, but did not. When He was on the cross, they said that He saved others but couldn't save Himself



    So there is plenty of Biblical justification for why we don't see miracles today in the same way. In a sense God is hidden - Isaiah said 'You are a God who hides Himself'. Why has God changed in the way He operates? It's a complicated answer, but basically the age changed through Christ's accomplished death and so forth. God works differently today than He did.
    You will bruise him on the head, and he will bruise you on the heel.
    When the train of history hits a curve the intellectuals fall off - Marx

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    That's quite a good question so I'll give it a shot.

    Firstly there are miracles still in this age such as healings. I've heard of people who have both experienced and delivered healing in a miraculous sense, heard stories of babies being healed overnight of chronic illnesses (by reputable people).
    A single reputable reference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    That's quite a good question so I'll give it a shot.

    Firstly there are miracles still in this age such as healings.

    Not so - see thread http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=104324

    Perpetuating heresay and fraud does not make it fact.

    I acknowledge your beliefs and respect your faith - but faith isn't proof.

  7. #7
    Super Grandmaster cerebus's Avatar
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    I'm not about to get pulled into this one. Believe whatever you want.
    You will bruise him on the head, and he will bruise you on the heel.
    When the train of history hits a curve the intellectuals fall off - Marx

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    I'm not about to get pulled into this one. Believe whatever you want.
    Yeah it would be terrible if we all had to justify the claims we make.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    Firstly there are miracles still in this age such as healings. I've heard of people who have both experienced and delivered healing in a miraculous sense, heard stories of babies being healed overnight of chronic illnesses (by reputable people). The NT records instances of such miracles, and church history is full of such accounts.
    Note how they are all "unseen" miracles, i.e. those involving diseases that cannot be seen with the naked eye. How about conjuring up a missing arm in front of a live audience...perhaps film it too? No trick photography please!
    ~ Those who think they know it all are an annoyance to those of us that do ~

  10. #10

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    @ cerebus - thanks for your post but I think I don't get or am missing the answer. Is there a biblical reason why we don't see them anymore?

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    The ' give back an arm' argument is an old one, but on consideration..

    One single instance of this happening would have a shattering effect on skeptics, atheists etc. No one could deny that there was some divine intervention.

    But until then...

  12. #12
    Super Grandmaster cerebus's Avatar
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    The point is that even Jesus refused to perform a miracle when given the opportunity - this written by people who were apparently eager to prove Jesus' divine status - for good reason. The extent of man's unbelief is such that nothing less than, as daveza requested, a healed amputation (or more) would satisfy them. If I gave examples of other cases, then you would say well where's the documentation, or it's just hearsay, or whatever you could say to wriggle out of it. Neither I nor God are interested in that kind of proof. I can cite cases that I've heard of, even if I gave one that I had seen personally I doubt it would have much impact.



    Now waaib - you're right, what I showed you were verses that indicated that in the NT we shouldn't expect to see miracles in the same why, but I haven't given a reason for why that should be.

    The reason is that in the OT times, God's position in relation to man was outward. There were offerings, rituals, places of worship, God's visible presence, miracles, strict regulations etc. Man worshiped God, but always at a distance removed.

    Now when Christ came, He brought a great change in man's relationship to God. He was incarnated as the tabernacle of God, having all the fullness of God inwardly. Through death and resurrection, He was transfigured to become the life giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), still God but somehow processed to be able to enter into man.

    So for NT believers, our relationship with God is inward. We have no need for miracles as signs because we have God's own presence indwelling us as the Spirit, supplying, regulating and transforming us to be the same as Christ. God's purpose is not fulfilled by miracles but by this process of regeneration, rebirth into man. So miracles just don't have a lot of value to us today.
    You will bruise him on the head, and he will bruise you on the heel.
    When the train of history hits a curve the intellectuals fall off - Marx

  13. #13

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    I am constantly amazed at the mental gymnastics people will perform to escape logic and reason when it comes to religion.

    I guess human creativity knows few bounds.

  14. #14
    Super Grandmaster cerebus's Avatar
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    icyrus - I admit that I haven't seen anyone healed - I just haven't gone looking for one. But I have heard of them, as I said from reputable people. I gave an example on the first post. So if those were true events, they would constitute a genuine case of healing, at least as far as I'm concerned. So who's performing mental gymnastics? I've heard of them so I believe in them, quite simple.

    All you can say is that you want a bigger miracle. If I offered you that, you'd want a bigger one. I'm just not interested in providing you with that.
    You will bruise him on the head, and he will bruise you on the heel.
    When the train of history hits a curve the intellectuals fall off - Marx

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    icyrus - I admit that I haven't seen anyone healed - I just haven't gone looking for one. But I have heard of them, as I said from reputable people. I gave an example on the first post. So if those were true events, they would constitute a genuine case of healing, at least as far as I'm concerned. So who's performing mental gymnastics? I've heard of them so I believe in them, quite simple.

    All you can say is that you want a bigger miracle. If I offered you that, you'd want a bigger one. I'm just not interested in providing you with that.
    No, you heard of a case were someone supposedly got healed in an unknown way and attributed it to god where others would look for the real reason.

    This is why "miracle healing" tends to only happen in certain cases.

    A leg or arm spontaneously growing back would be taken more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by cerebus View Post
    All you can say is that you want a bigger miracle. If I offered you that, you'd want a bigger one. I'm just not interested in providing you with that.
    I didn't realize you were in a position to offer such things.

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