Islam on Divine Decree and free will

[wayfarer]

Reconciling Divine Decree with free will is one of the biggest challenges within the Abrahamic traditions. The explanation that I offer below is a very concise, extremely simplified version of the popular Islamic view, consistent with what is called the Ashari Creed. (Another similar thread focusing on Christian views on this same issue can be found here.)

Divine Decree and free will

God knows all that was, is and will be, and God exists independently of time, but created time and wills things to take place chronologically. He knows what choices people will make, and He decides whether or not to facilitate these choices. People have their own wills (free will), but God decides (determines) whether or not what people intend will actually come to pass, and thus His will is done.

In summary, from Learndeen:

BELIEF IN GOD'S POWER IS BASED ON FOUR THINGS:

1 – العلم Knowledge: i.e., that God knows what His creation will do, by virtue of His eternal knowledge, including their choices that will take place.

2 – كتابة Writing: i.e., that God has written every thing that exists including the destiny of all creatures in the preserved tablet prior to creation.

3 – مشيئة Will: i.e., that what God wills happens and what He does not will does not happen. There is no movement in the heavens or on earth but it happens by His will. This does not mean that he forces things to happen the way they happen in the area of human beings volunteer actions. It means that He knew what they will choose, wrote it and let it happen, was and is always able to change it when He wants.

4 - الخلق Creation and formation: i.e., that God is the Creator of all things, including the actions of His creation. They do their actions in a real sense, and God is the Creator of them and of their actions.

Note that God is a multi-dimensional entity, and while our wills exist within the three/four dimensional world, God's will transcends it. See Mokhtar Maghraoui - Pre-destination & Divine Decree - Part 1 of 5.

[killadoob]

You must give some thought to your next thread.

[copacetic]

I don't mean to lend your no doubt well constructed thread anything less than the attention your effort deserves, but reading through that, it seems frankly incompatible with the notion of free will.

[wayfarer]

I don't mean to lend your no doubt well constructed thread anything less than the attention your effort deserves, but reading through that, it seems frankly incompatible with the notion of free will.

I can appreciate that this is difficult matter.

Free will is not the same as being all-powerful, which humans are not. We may will something, and if God grants it to be so, then we are responsible for our actions.

Free will also does not mean that we always get what we want. If we want to do something according to our free will, we exert ourselves to do it, but God facilitates it for us, for all power to enact anything lies with Him. We do not always "succeed" in our intended endeavours according to our free will. This does not negate the concept of having a free will. We are, however, dependent on the agency of God for its enactment, and He determines the success status of our endeavours.

Having free will does not mean we can, for example, fly up into the sky unassisted by technology, no matter how hard we will it. Free will and power are independent constructs, and will can exist without power. For an action to occur, you need both will and power. Free will we have. Power completely comes from God. And He determines our capacities to perform, and the outcomes of actions. With our free will, we make decisions for ourselves, and God says nay or yay through His facilitation. (However, He has informed us that we remain responsible for our deeds.)

God facilitates the good, and He facilitates the evil.

[Saajid]

I can appreciate that this is difficult matter. *snip*

Very well explained. I've always wondered about this, and you've painted a very clear picture in my mind. I agree with the notion of separating will from power.

[wayfarer]

Very well explained. I've always wondered about this, and you've painted a very clear picture in my mind. I agree with the notion of separating will from power.

Thanks Toxic

I was wholly surprised at the amount of positive messages that I received in my Inbox, mostly from people that were not even adherents to the same faith as me. Indeed, this is a matter that even devout believers within the monotheistic tradition grapple with.

I should point out that I cannot claim authorship of the above view, but that it is the view of the creed (called Ashari Creed) adopted by the majority of Muslims (but most Muslims don't even know this aspect of their creed!).

There were also a number of further questions that came from that post, and I will try my best to address them at some later time.

[Krypto]

Thanks Toxic

I was wholly surprised at the amount of positive messages that I received in my Inbox, mostly from people that were not even adherents to the same faith as me. Indeed, this is a matter that even devout believers within the monotheistic tradition grapple with.

I should point out that I cannot claim authorship of the above view, but that it is the view of the creed (called Ashari Creed) adopted by the majority of Muslims (but most Muslims don't even know this aspect of their creed!).

There were also a number of further questions that came from that post, and I will try my best to address them at some later time.

I'm sorry for the people who inboxed you but I really don't see how this reconciles free will with devine creed.

The difference between will and power is clear but free will is not about 'acting out' only but also about choosing (acting in) one from many options. Say I choose to wear a blue shirt tomorrow (as I plan to) but god knows that i'll be wearing a pink one, then what will happen, i'll just find myself in a pink one?

Note that my choosing the blue involves some action to a certain extent and its this action that would be restricted if god already knows i'm going to wear green. Perhaps you are not too clear or this headache is affecting my thinking but what I see is this explanation assumes a rather limited and 'incorrect' definition of free will.

[Ekstasis]

The difference between will and power is clear but free will is not about 'acting out' only but also about choosing (acting in) one from many options. Say I choose to wear a blue shirt tomorrow (as I plan to) but god knows that i'll be wearing a pink one, then what will happen, i'll just find myself in a pink one?

You're answering yourself without realising it. God knowing and God determining are 2 very different things. If you put on that pink shirt tomorrow guy, it's all your own doing, but hey, God knew that already.

[alloytoo]

You're answering yourself without realising it. God knowing and God determining are 2 very different things. If you put on that pink shirt tomorrow guy, it's all your own doing, but hey, God knew that already.

Nonsense. If you accept god as the prime mover with omnicience then free will and sin are nothing but a sick joke.

[wayfarer]

Thanks Krypto, for your comments/concerns

We have our own will, granted by God, but we do not have our own power. We may will something, and if God approves it, He moves it. If He moves it, it is still our will, but the fact that He decides to enact it, means that our will and His will are reconciled. If not, something else will "happen", in a natural sense, not that something will just appear magically from nowhere just to fulfil His will (although this is entirely within God's capacity, but would not normally happen and would count as a miracle )

I'm sorry for the people who inboxed you but I really don't see how this reconciles free will with devine creed.

The difference between will and power is clear but free will is not about 'acting out' only but also about choosing (acting in) one from many options. Say I choose to wear a blue shirt tomorrow (as I plan to) but god knows that i'll be wearing a pink one, then what will happen, i'll just find myself in a pink one?

Now you have rightfully introduced another essential component of Gods enactments, i.e. full and absolute Knowledge. He knows what we will will, and what will transpire, at every moment. He also knows what will not transpire. God Wills according to His infinite Power and Knowledge. But I think the question here is not so much what God knows, but what He wills. And what people sometimes grapple with is whether we have our own wills, or everything is exclusively God's will.

So you will go to your cupboard and realise that the blue shirt actually came damp off the line, or maybe you will don the shirt, spilling coffee all over it. Whatever. There are endless possibilities how God can cause what you willed or intended to not happen. You still have free will. The wet shirt / coffee stain may even be an exaggeration of the subtleties involved. Remember, God knew what you would do this morning before he even created Adam.

Furthermore, the explanation above is just to show you an example, and does not mean that it actually happens that way. To God, all events on earth are neutral.

Note that my choosing the blue involves some action to a certain extent and its this action that would be restricted if god already knows i'm going to wear green. Perhaps you are not too clear or this headache is affecting my thinking but what I see is this explanation assumes a rather limited and 'incorrect' definition of free will.

Maybe I was not clear . This explanation can easily take the form of multiple posts consisting of walls of text . I am really trying to keep it as simple as possible.

To reiterate:

We have our own free will, but no power to enact it. God has infinite knowledge, not only of what will happen, but also of what we will will. If God agrees to enact our wills, then it is not contrary to His will. He can decide to give partial power to the cause (or make the circumstances such that our will cannot be done - remember He has complete fore-Knowledge), causing the act to go according to His will. If it didn't happen according to what we wanted to happen, it does not mean we don't have free will (or independent wants). If we succeed in what we willed (God facilitated it) then we are accountable.

[Krypto]

Thanks Krypto, for your comments/concerns

We have our own will, granted by God, but we do not have our own power. We may will something, and if God approves it, He moves it. If He moves it, it is still our will, but the fact that He decides to enact it, means that our will and His will are reconciled. If not, something else will "happen", in a natural sense, not that something will just appear magically from nowhere just to fulfil His will (although this is entirely within God's capacity, but would not normally happen and would count as a miracle )



Now you have rightfully introduced another essential component of Gods enactments, i.e. full and absolute Knowledge. He knows what we will will, and what will transpire, at every moment. He also knows what will not transpire. God Wills according to His infinite Power and Knowledge. But I think the question here is not so much what God knows, but what He wills. And what people sometimes grapple with is whether we have our own wills, or everything is exclusively God's will.

So you will go to your cupboard and realise that the blue shirt actually came damp off the line, or maybe you will don the shirt, spilling coffee all over it. Whatever. There are endless possibilities how God can cause what you willed or intended to not happen. You still have free will. The wet shirt / coffee stain may even be an exaggeration of the subtleties involved. Remember, God knew what you would do this morning before he even created Adam.

Furthermore, the explanation above is just to show you an example, and does not mean that it actually happens that way. To God, all events on earth are neutral.



Maybe I was not clear . This explanation can easily take the form of multiple posts consisting of walls of text . I am really trying to keep it as simple as possible.

To reiterate:

We have our own free will, but no power to enact it. God has infinite knowledge, not only of what will happen, but also of what we will will. If God agrees to enact our wills, then it is not contrary to His will. He can decide to give partial power to the cause (or make the circumstances such that our will cannot be done - remember He has complete fore-Knowledge), causing the act to go according to His will. If it didn't happen according to what we wanted to happen, it does not mean we don't have free will (or independent wants). If we succeed in what we willed (God facilitated it) then we are accountable.

You're quite clear now and more obvious that I shouldn't agree with you. If you were saying god knows the overall picture or overall end result then i'd say there is compatibility.

But you are saying he knows every single choice which clearly brings us to the Problem of Omniscience. If god knew that I was going to wear a pink shirt on yday before I even bought it then I had no choice whatsoever between the two shirts. Because its 100% guaranteed that i'll choose pink then there's 0% chance that i'll choose blue. Now the moment one makes the choice the chances of the selected option goes to 100% and that of unselected options to 0%, the problem with omniscience is that the chance for unselected option (blue) have been 0% all along so to say I could have chosen that is equivalent to saying I could choose to wear an invisible shirt which I don't have.

As for the differentiation between pure will and ability I also disagree that this solves the incompatibility (in some cases). Take choices that involve no external effort outside the mind, like deciding whether the better player is Messi or Ronaldo, say I choose the former but god knew all along that i'm going to choose the latter how is god going to change the choice without interfering with my free will? The issue of accountability is a separate one but its irrational to think i'd be accountable if I chose not to burn the house down but god nonetheless facilitated the burning.

[Mineer]

here is my attempt to answer krypto

if the choice to like something or someone is based on prior experience, the choices leading up to the point of selecting Messi could then be calculated, and God would have this knowledge

and if something happened that would change your liking of messi to ronnaldo God would know the events leading up to this point too

[wayfarer]

You're quite clear now and more obvious that I shouldn't agree with you. If you were saying god knows the overall picture or overall end result then i'd say there is compatibility.

But you are saying he knows every single choice which clearly brings us to the Problem of Omniscience. If god knew that I was going to wear a pink shirt on yday before I even bought it then I had no choice whatsoever between the two shirts. Because its 100% guaranteed that i'll choose pink then there's 0% chance that i'll choose blue. Now the moment one makes the choice the chances of the selected option goes to 100% and that of unselected options to 0%, the problem with omniscience is that the chance for unselected option (blue) have been 0% all along so to say I could have chosen that is equivalent to saying I could choose to wear an invisible shirt which I don't have.

Premonition / pre-knowledge does not negate free will. If I say to you, "Do not break into that trigger happy man's house, as I am certain you will get shot." When he shoots you, it does not mean, because it was predicted, that he has no free will.

As for the differentiation between pure will and ability I also disagree that this solves the incompatibility (in some cases). Take choices that involve no external effort outside the mind, like deciding whether the better player is Messi or Ronaldo, say I choose the former but god knew all along that i'm going to choose the latter how is god going to change the choice without interfering with my free will? The issue of accountability is a separate one but its irrational to think i'd be accountable if I chose not to burn the house down but god nonetheless facilitated the burning.

The pieces above are fraught with internal contradictions, and is not discussing the Ashari creed's Divine Decree vs Free Will. It discusses fore-Knowledge and Free Will. If you choose Messi, how can God know you to choose Ronaldo? This is not how monotheists define God. His knowledge is true and absolute. He will know who you choose (Messi), and will not choose for you. God knows your true will, not some alternative will. God does not determine our wills, He merely knows them. And He knows them accurately. Note that the term free will is quite loaded, and there is no consensus on exactly what this construct entails. Islamic scholars often translate the arabic word for free will as "freedom of intention", as this gives a less ambiguous and more nuanced meaning. In most cases, God enacts our wills as we intend them, but he is fully able to NOT enact them.

There is not much more I can say without getting into heavy Kalam arguments (not to be confused with the Kalam Argument). My suggestion to you is to look at Western explanations of this, as contemporary Western philosophy draws on the works of Imam Ghazali and other Muslim scholars to produce something called OCCASIONALISM, and it is increasingly popular amongst theists in the west.

[Girly]

Ok, so this is the best attempt to explain this issue that I ever came across, and this specific issue has bewildered me very much for very long. Is it also the Christian view?

[wayfarer]

Ok, so this is the best attempt to explain this issue that I ever came across, and this specific issue has bewildered me very much for very long. Is it also the Christian view?

I'm not sure that one can speak about the Christian view; perhaps a Christian view. I think that it would be acceptable to some inflections of the Christian doctrine. See what you can discern by following the link pasted in the original post of this thread.