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Thread: Would you be comfortable flying in a Russian built airliner?

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    SmoothOokerMaximus The_Librarian's Avatar
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    As long as the plane is serviced properly, and have properly, qualified pilots, I'll fly.
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    Resident Lead Bender Ockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Librarian View Post
    As long as the plane is serviced properly, and have properly, qualified pilots, I'll fly.
    Flying Munkey! tehehehe.
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    Super Grandmaster Ou grote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    That is true. But surely that cant cost equal to what they will save on the purchase of the plane?. If you can fly one airliner you can fly all of them...surely the basics are similar...just here and there that you will need to adjust etc or is that a gross over simplification? :-)

    I dont know about the others...but Sukhoi offers some kind of service contract where I assume they take care of the parts and servicing of the craft. One of Mexico's low cost airlines that have about 10 of these babies on order took up the service contract also.
    I can't say that I've done cost analyst on aircraft maintenance.

    You'll probably find thos figures in Safair, Comair, itime or mango's anual reports.

    itime's market cap is only R100 000 000, so I guess they own very cheap aircraft. or lease them.
    Comair are at R1 051 000 000, but that includes all their businesses.

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    First Officer Rosaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    So...I was browsing airliners on wikipedia again...one of my fav timer passers...and came across this new Russian airliner in development (currently busy with test flights etc)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-204

    I have two questions:

    1. Would you guys feel safe in one of these...considering that it meets all international safety standards?

    2. Why is it that not more airlines are getting this baby? Her estimated cost is $40 - 47$ million. The equivalent Boeing 737 -800 is $80 million and carries only 5 more passengers for double the price???????????????

    Why dont our local low cost carriers like kulula, 1Time and Velvet Sky jump at this? They are always moaning about the cost of airliners and they waiting for low cost second hand ones to come along! Freaking hell, here is a brand spanking new airliner for what you would likely pay for a second hand, 15 year old Boeing 737. Am I missing something here?

    What do you guys think? Can you guys explain this to me?

    Even better is this beauty...the Bombardier C Series. About 140 passengers...also for much cheaper ($46 million) than the Boeing 737? Damn...1Time should put me in charge of revamping their fleet! Are they sleeping over there? lolz

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries

    Rosaudio....would love to hear your input on this too.

    Anyways...I know most of the guys here are petrol heads and dont really care about airliners etc...but I am hoping to be surprised :-)
    I've never actually flown on a Russian built aircraft before (to my knowledge) but I wouldn't mind it. Although I would prefer A or B, I wouldn't hesitate to get on board.

    I'm not the best at explaining it, and everything I say may not be correct, but i'll try my best with what I know (or think I know )

    The prices do look excellent yes, as you say they are aimed at low cost carriers, mainly Russian airlines.. because the Russian Government basically forces airlines to buy Russian aircraft through excessive taxes on foreign aircraft and subsidies on the purchases of Russian aircraft.. or something like that.. not too clued up. You wonder why airlines don't just go and buy the Tu.. well to put it short, maintenance and depreciation. Airlines can cheaply maintain their Boeing or Airbus aircraft due to the amount of parts in the industry. If an LCC over here bought some Tu's, they would have to buy parts from Russia and train maintenance crews the be able to deal with the completely new aircraft type. Almost all maintenance here is done by SAA Technical. Because SAA have Airbus and Boeing aircraft (and Embraer/Bombardier from SAX etc..), the crew there are trained on all those aircraft and have parts in the hangar for almost every aircraft. All of a sudden when say 1time buys Tupolev aircraft.. SAA Technical has no parts or experience with those aircraft. Then you need to send them to another country for maintenance or train your own mechanics and imports your own parts.. which costs a huge amount.

    Then what happens when you don't want the aircraft anymore, the value of a COMAC C919 or Tupolev 204 aircraft will drop tremendously in comparison to an A320 or 737. This is why airlines will buy a more expensive 737, knowing that if they get rid of it they won't lose as much money as they would if that aircraft was a Tu. There are a lot more airlines out there looking for second hand A320s, than there will be airlines looking for a 2nd hand Tupolev aircraft. Demand is higher and therefor you sell for more. Anyway let's just say that the Russian and Chinese aircraft depreciate a lot more.. that will always be the case

    Then you get to the passenger views of the aircraft. If you had two airlines flying JNB-CPT.. one with a 737 and one with a Tu 204.. most people will always choose the Boeing. People have a bad perception of Russian aircraft.. and will try to avoid them if they have the choice. Just like people try to avoid turboprops because they see them as 'old aircraft' although the Dash-8 you're on could only be 6 months old. I know it's a different scenario but when people think of Airplanes they think of the Boeing 747.. or an Airbus A380. Most people don't know what a Tupolev is so if they see an airline flying them they will avoid them. 1time passenger numbers would drop a huge amount if they had a Tu-only fleet, because people would rather fly on the proven Boeings from Mango or Kulula for example. However the aircraft will always work in Russia because people don't share the same viewpoint there, they will fly a Tu without hesitation. I would expect 1time to probably go for an Airbus fleet to replace the ageing gas-guzzling MD-8X aircraft.

    The Bombardier C series.. beautiful I love it.

    However it's not in the same class as the 737-800 or A320. It would be in the class of the A319 or EMB195. I see airlines in the future ordering quite a lot of these aircraft to replace the heavy A318/A319. Lufthansa has ordered some already.. i'm not sure if they will be using them themselves though, or whether they will be going to Swiss. Think it's the latter. Also Qatar has bought some too. Can't wait until the are flying.

    edit: and thanks for the aviation related thread ockie Don't see enough of them around here!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    Why thank you!

    Check out this cockpit of the Bombardier C Series guys! ITS SO PRETTTYYYY!!!!!

    If I was one of our airlines I would buy it just for the cockpit! I did not know the Canadians can do beautiful designs like this! *grin*



    Compared to that....Boeing SUCKS donkie ballas! :-)
    Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?

    Last edited by Rosaudio; 08-09-2011 at 03:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaudio View Post
    SNIP


    Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?

    Thanks Ros. What you say makes sense...justified or not. It is rather sad. Kinda how people cling to Nokia and dont want to use anything else cause it is unknown..but it wont become mainstream and well known cause no one wants to try it. Kinda chicken and the egg thing. lolz.

    Gonna check out that pic soon as I get home. Blocked on my work PC. :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaudio View Post
    Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?
    Ja but can it play Crysis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaudio View Post
    edit: and thanks for the aviation related thread ockie Don't see enough of them around here!

    ]
    You are very welcome meneer. I also wish there was more of a interest! I mean...how can you not be interested in these beautiful ... and sometimes not so beautiful wonderful machines???????

    And WOW....the 787 cock.....pit is beautiful also...but I do still prefer the Bombardier one. There is just something extremely beautiful in its simplistic and clean design. DAMMIT...why did I not follow my dads dream for his only son and become a freakking pilot....oh no wait...cause I suck at maths...thats why *sigh* hehehe
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponder View Post
    Ja but can it play Crysis?
    hehehehehe. That makes me wonder. What kinda hardware does the avionics sport? Must have a crap load of processing power I would assume? I wish there was a place where you pay a certain amount..and you get a pilot that takes you step by step for the whole day...exploring the ins and outs of a jetliner...allowing you to crawl into the avionics bay with him...into the turbofans and then into the cockpit and gives you a live demo of how it works and what all the buttons and stuff do. I WOULD LOVE THAT!!!!!
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    Resident Lead Bender Ockie's Avatar
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    I dont think this one have been mentioned yet. Also seems like a killer deal for what it offers:



    The designer plans that the MS-21 will be 10-15% more efficient than Airbus and Boeing aircraft in the same class and it will have a 15% structural weight efficiency advantage, 20% lower operating costs, and 15% lower fuel consumption than the Airbus A320[4] with an initial target price of 35 Million US$.[11]
    This little baby can carry up to 210 passengers. Ryanair is considering this one also it seems.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MS-21
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  11. #41

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    OC, since you're interested in flight decks and planes, may i suggest you look at Garmin's site. They manufacture awesome glass cockpit and flight deck instrumentation that will transform even a 1960's 172 cockpit into a dream.

    http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/
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    First Officer Rosaudio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    I dont think this one have been mentioned yet. Also seems like a killer deal for what it offers:

    This little baby can carry up to 210 passengers. Ryanair is considering this one also it seems.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MS-21
    Looking good as well.

    Keep in mind that Ryanair won't want an aircraft with over 200 seats due to the fact that they would then be required to have a 5th flight attendant (1:50 ratio legally required). Maximum amount of seats for them would be 199 seats. Unless they can get a 249 seat plane to make it worthwhile.. but that wont happen

    In my opinion I don't think Ryanair will be buying anything other than Boeing aircraft. The only reason Ryanair have been working so closely with the Russians and Chinese is to intimidate Boeing into giving them a better deal on the aircraft. Well, that's what I believe anyway.

    That's the reason Airbus is so hesitant to negotiate with Ryanair, because they will offer Ryanair a deal.. and then Ryanair will take that to Boeing and force Boeing to give them a cheaper deal.. in which then Airbus gains nothing, and wastes a load of time and effort in trying to make a deal that will never happen. Unfortunatley for the Russians and Chinese, they are so desperate for a big order that they will do anything, but nothing will probably come of it.

    Anyway I don't think Airbus would be too keen on having their delivery schedule clogged up with 300 Ryanair aircraft.. going on for years. That would certainly piss off a few other airlines that want delivery slots. Besides the NEO is selling very well at the moment, Airbus dont need Ryanair anyway

    I may be wrong and Ryanair may go and buy some Russian or Chinese jets I just dont think it will happen.
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    Resident Lead Bender Ockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosaudio View Post
    Looking good as well.

    Keep in mind that Ryanair won't want an aircraft with over 200 seats due to the fact that they would then be required to have a 5th flight attendant (1:50 ratio legally required). Maximum amount of seats for them would be 199 seats. Unless they can get a 249 seat plane to make it worthwhile.. but that wont happen

    In my opinion I don't think Ryanair will be buying anything other than Boeing aircraft. The only reason Ryanair have been working so closely with the Russians and Chinese is to intimidate Boeing into giving them a better deal on the aircraft. Well, that's what I believe anyway.

    That's the reason Airbus is so hesitant to negotiate with Ryanair, because they will offer Ryanair a deal.. and then Ryanair will take that to Boeing and force Boeing to give them a cheaper deal.. in which then Airbus gains nothing, and wastes a load of time and effort in trying to make a deal that will never happen. Unfortunatley for the Russians and Chinese, they are so desperate for a big order that they will do anything, but nothing will probably come of it.

    Anyway I don't think Airbus would be too keen on having their delivery schedule clogged up with 300 Ryanair aircraft.. going on for years. That would certainly piss off a few other airlines that want delivery slots. Besides the NEO is selling very well at the moment, Airbus dont need Ryanair anyway

    I may be wrong and Ryanair may go and buy some Russian or Chinese jets I just dont think it will happen.
    Interesting. mmmm. If the Russians and Chinese (eish..not sure how I feel about flying in a Chinese Fong Kong plane lolz) can get some kind of infrastructure up when it comes to supplying parts and after sale service to clients...that could go a long way. Basically say..right, you buy our aircraft at this steal of a deal...AND we will assure you that we will service your aircraft if you take the service contract also. So, if you need repairs done and it cant be done by your local techs...we will fly our techies to you and get the job done. All you have to do is have essential parts in stock which we can supply with the original purchase of the plane so that when our techies get there....they have what they need to get the bird back into the sky.

    The Russians just need to get their product out there...and to do that they are gonna have to go the extra mile. Offer a after sale maintenance thingy that will blow the panties off Boeing and Airbus. Give the customer real incentive to go with their product instead of a industry trusted one and prove to the world that they can offer a similar if not better product at half the price AND should something go wrong..they will look after the client. The thing about airlines that they must understand is that every minute a airliner spends time on the ground and not in the air is money lost!

    What they must also take advantage of is that Airbus and Boeing is congested in the sense that customers are waiting for delivery slots. You place your order now and you lucky if you have your plane in 5 years. They should market themselves as basically saying...you order with us now...and we will have your plane ready for you in 6 months...fitted, fueled and the keys in the ignition for you to fire her up! :-)

    It might be that Airbus may not need the Ryanair order cause they have other high end airlines like SAA and what have you on their knees begging to get their planes...but the low budge airlines....if you offer them a deal that is golden...PLUS a delivery time of chop chop then hell..I can not see a reason why they wont jump at that....apart from the reasons you gave earlier. But even then......if I had to choose between a airline that uses a Irkut MS21 at half the price compared to another airline that uses Airbus but I pay out of my @ss...then I will go with the Irkut one. It is not like these planes dont go through the same international quality control checks. :-)
    Last edited by Ockie; 08-09-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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    OH and PS: 1Time uses freakking MD planes still. Those things are ancient! Compared to that I would happily fly in a new Irkut or Sukhoi
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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freshy-ZN View Post
    Heh, those 195s are beatiful aircraft. Then again, I am biased towards Embraer.... riding the jumpseat for a procedure turn approach (Description) and landing in a ERJ 135 at George was amazing, pity we didn't see any whales tho'!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    But Airbus and Boeing's have also gone down recently. Take that Air France Airbus A330 and our very own Helderberg Boeing 747 Combi.

    Does this one mentioned crash mean that all modern Russian jets are unsafe? What about those massive Illysin jets with 3 engines on each wing that are able of carrying other planes in their belly? Those things have been flying for years and years with no incident?
    Yes, those two aircraft did crash, but don't think it was due to manufacturing defects, afaik. Someone correct me here if I'm wrong. The AF one sounds like training, think the SAA one was incorrectly stored fireworks or something, if I remember correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by <?php?> View Post
    OC, since you're interested in flight decks and planes, may i suggest you look at Garmin's site. They manufacture awesome glass cockpit and flight deck instrumentation that will transform even a 1960's 172 cockpit into a dream.

    http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/
    Oooh, glass cockpits look nice, from a 787 to a C172!

    Quote Originally Posted by ocleroux View Post
    OH and PS: 1Time uses freakking MD planes still. Those things are ancient! Compared to that I would happily fly in a new Irkut or Sukhoi
    An upgrade would be nice, but not sure if they have the money, especially if they posted a loss.

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