Would you be comfortable flying in a Russian built airliner?

[OomD]

... I see someone used the AK-47 as an example of good engineering. Tell you one thing about that firearm... I want my enemies shooting it in a war. I wouldnt use it myself. Sure, its the 4x4 of rifles in its durability, but so far as accuracy goes... you might as well throw the gun at the person to have a better chance of hitting someone...

WTF you serious? Were you ever in the army? Have you ever handled our R4 rifle? It's an almost exact copy of the AK-47 for a good reason! The AK-47 is popular for a reason. If it were that inaccurate then no-one would be using it.

[Ockie]

Will probably have something to do with the maintenance of the aircraft.

You'll need the few technitions we have to get trained up, spare parts etc etc.
Train pilots and other air crew, get it certified here...

Boeing and Airbus are already sorted in all areas.

That is true. But surely that cant cost equal to what they will save on the purchase of the plane?. If you can fly one airliner you can fly all of them...surely the basics are similar...just here and there that you will need to adjust etc or is that a gross over simplification? :-)

I dont know about the others...but Sukhoi offers some kind of service contract where I assume they take care of the parts and servicing of the craft. One of Mexico's low cost airlines that have about 10 of these babies on order took up the service contract also.

[The_Librarian]

As long as the plane is serviced properly, and have properly, qualified pilots, I'll fly.

[Ockie]

As long as the plane is serviced properly, and have properly, qualified pilots, I'll fly.

Flying Munkey! tehehehe.

[alf101]

That is true. But surely that cant cost equal to what they will save on the purchase of the plane?. If you can fly one airliner you can fly all of them...surely the basics are similar...just here and there that you will need to adjust etc or is that a gross over simplification? :-)

I dont know about the others...but Sukhoi offers some kind of service contract where I assume they take care of the parts and servicing of the craft. One of Mexico's low cost airlines that have about 10 of these babies on order took up the service contract also.

I can't say that I've done cost analyst on aircraft maintenance.

You'll probably find thos figures in Safair, Comair, itime or mango's anual reports.

itime's market cap is only R100 000 000, so I guess they own very cheap aircraft. or lease them.
Comair are at R1 051 000 000, but that includes all their businesses.

[alf101]

From their 2007 one :

Consecutive years of operating profi t 61
Kilometres fl own 31 321 837
Take offs and landings 31 346
Passengers carried 3 141 000
Freight carried (tonnes) 7 900
Fuel uplifted 160 million litres
Maintenance 350 000 man hours
Individual payroll payments over 20 000
Staff trained 1 143
Meals served over 1,4 million
Unaccompanied Children 3 937
Wheel chair passengers 7 599
Bicycles carried 2 740
Magazines on board 609 660

http://www.southafrica.to/transport/...air-200706.pdf

[ponder]

Have you ever handled our R4 rifle? It's an almost exact copy of the AK-47 for a good reason! The AK-47 is popular for a reason. If it were that inaccurate then no-one would be using it.

R4 is based on the Galil which is based on the RK 62 which is based on the AK-47

I assume that using a 5.52mm round would help in accuracy compared to a 7.62mm round but I know jack about guns & ammo.

[Rosaudio]

So...I was browsing airliners on wikipedia again...one of my fav timer passers...and came across this new Russian airliner in development (currently busy with test flights etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-204

I have two questions:

1. Would you guys feel safe in one of these...considering that it meets all international safety standards?

2. Why is it that not more airlines are getting this baby? Her estimated cost is $40 - 47$ million. The equivalent Boeing 737 -800 is $80 million and carries only 5 more passengers for double the price???????????????

Why dont our local low cost carriers like kulula, 1Time and Velvet Sky jump at this? They are always moaning about the cost of airliners and they waiting for low cost second hand ones to come along! Freaking hell, here is a brand spanking new airliner for what you would likely pay for a second hand, 15 year old Boeing 737. Am I missing something here?

What do you guys think? Can you guys explain this to me?

Even better is this beauty...the Bombardier C Series. About 140 passengers...also for much cheaper ($46 million) than the Boeing 737? Damn...1Time should put me in charge of revamping their fleet! Are they sleeping over there? lolz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_CSeries

Rosaudio....would love to hear your input on this too.

Anyways...I know most of the guys here are petrol heads and dont really care about airliners etc...but I am hoping to be surprised :-)

I've never actually flown on a Russian built aircraft before (to my knowledge) but I wouldn't mind it. Although I would prefer A or B, I wouldn't hesitate to get on board.

I'm not the best at explaining it, and everything I say may not be correct, but i'll try my best with what I know (or think I know )

The prices do look excellent yes, as you say they are aimed at low cost carriers, mainly Russian airlines.. because the Russian Government basically forces airlines to buy Russian aircraft through excessive taxes on foreign aircraft and subsidies on the purchases of Russian aircraft.. or something like that.. not too clued up. You wonder why airlines don't just go and buy the Tu.. well to put it short, maintenance and depreciation. Airlines can cheaply maintain their Boeing or Airbus aircraft due to the amount of parts in the industry. If an LCC over here bought some Tu's, they would have to buy parts from Russia and train maintenance crews the be able to deal with the completely new aircraft type. Almost all maintenance here is done by SAA Technical. Because SAA have Airbus and Boeing aircraft (and Embraer/Bombardier from SAX etc..), the crew there are trained on all those aircraft and have parts in the hangar for almost every aircraft. All of a sudden when say 1time buys Tupolev aircraft.. SAA Technical has no parts or experience with those aircraft. Then you need to send them to another country for maintenance or train your own mechanics and imports your own parts.. which costs a huge amount.

Then what happens when you don't want the aircraft anymore, the value of a COMAC C919 or Tupolev 204 aircraft will drop tremendously in comparison to an A320 or 737. This is why airlines will buy a more expensive 737, knowing that if they get rid of it they won't lose as much money as they would if that aircraft was a Tu. There are a lot more airlines out there looking for second hand A320s, than there will be airlines looking for a 2nd hand Tupolev aircraft. Demand is higher and therefor you sell for more. Anyway let's just say that the Russian and Chinese aircraft depreciate a lot more.. that will always be the case

Then you get to the passenger views of the aircraft. If you had two airlines flying JNB-CPT.. one with a 737 and one with a Tu 204.. most people will always choose the Boeing. People have a bad perception of Russian aircraft.. and will try to avoid them if they have the choice. Just like people try to avoid turboprops because they see them as 'old aircraft' although the Dash-8 you're on could only be 6 months old. I know it's a different scenario but when people think of Airplanes they think of the Boeing 747.. or an Airbus A380. Most people don't know what a Tupolev is so if they see an airline flying them they will avoid them. 1time passenger numbers would drop a huge amount if they had a Tu-only fleet, because people would rather fly on the proven Boeings from Mango or Kulula for example. However the aircraft will always work in Russia because people don't share the same viewpoint there, they will fly a Tu without hesitation. I would expect 1time to probably go for an Airbus fleet to replace the ageing gas-guzzling MD-8X aircraft.

The Bombardier C series.. beautiful I love it.

However it's not in the same class as the 737-800 or A320. It would be in the class of the A319 or EMB195. I see airlines in the future ordering quite a lot of these aircraft to replace the heavy A318/A319. Lufthansa has ordered some already.. i'm not sure if they will be using them themselves though, or whether they will be going to Swiss. Think it's the latter. Also Qatar has bought some too. Can't wait until the are flying.

edit: and thanks for the aviation related thread ockie Don't see enough of them around here!

Why thank you!

Check out this cockpit of the Bombardier C Series guys! ITS SO PRETTTYYYY!!!!!

If I was one of our airlines I would buy it just for the cockpit! I did not know the Canadians can do beautiful designs like this! *grin*



Compared to that....Boeing SUCKS donkie ballas! :-)

Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?

[Ockie]

SNIP


Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?

Thanks Ros. What you say makes sense...justified or not. It is rather sad. Kinda how people cling to Nokia and dont want to use anything else cause it is unknown..but it wont become mainstream and well known cause no one wants to try it. Kinda chicken and the egg thing. lolz.

Gonna check out that pic soon as I get home. Blocked on my work PC. :-)

[ponder]

Have you seen the new 787 cockpit?

Ja but can it play Crysis?

[Ockie]

edit: and thanks for the aviation related thread ockie Don't see enough of them around here!

]

You are very welcome meneer. I also wish there was more of a interest! I mean...how can you not be interested in these beautiful ... and sometimes not so beautiful wonderful machines???????

And WOW....the 787 cock.....pit is beautiful also...but I do still prefer the Bombardier one. There is just something extremely beautiful in its simplistic and clean design. DAMMIT...why did I not follow my dads dream for his only son and become a freakking pilot....oh no wait...cause I suck at maths...thats why *sigh* hehehe

[Ockie]

Ja but can it play Crysis?

hehehehehe. That makes me wonder. What kinda hardware does the avionics sport? Must have a crap load of processing power I would assume? I wish there was a place where you pay a certain amount..and you get a pilot that takes you step by step for the whole day...exploring the ins and outs of a jetliner...allowing you to crawl into the avionics bay with him...into the turbofans and then into the cockpit and gives you a live demo of how it works and what all the buttons and stuff do. I WOULD LOVE THAT!!!!!

[Ockie]

I dont think this one have been mentioned yet. Also seems like a killer deal for what it offers:

The designer plans that the MS-21 will be 10-15% more efficient than Airbus and Boeing aircraft in the same class and it will have a 15% structural weight efficiency advantage, 20% lower operating costs, and 15% lower fuel consumption than the Airbus A320[4] with an initial target price of 35 Million US$.[11]

This little baby can carry up to 210 passengers. Ryanair is considering this one also it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MS-21

[<?php?>]

OC, since you're interested in flight decks and planes, may i suggest you look at Garmin's site. They manufacture awesome glass cockpit and flight deck instrumentation that will transform even a 1960's 172 cockpit into a dream.

http://www.garmin.com/us/products/intheair/

[Rosaudio]

I dont think this one have been mentioned yet. Also seems like a killer deal for what it offers:

This little baby can carry up to 210 passengers. Ryanair is considering this one also it seems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MS-21

Looking good as well.

Keep in mind that Ryanair won't want an aircraft with over 200 seats due to the fact that they would then be required to have a 5th flight attendant (1:50 ratio legally required). Maximum amount of seats for them would be 199 seats. Unless they can get a 249 seat plane to make it worthwhile.. but that wont happen

In my opinion I don't think Ryanair will be buying anything other than Boeing aircraft. The only reason Ryanair have been working so closely with the Russians and Chinese is to intimidate Boeing into giving them a better deal on the aircraft. Well, that's what I believe anyway.

That's the reason Airbus is so hesitant to negotiate with Ryanair, because they will offer Ryanair a deal.. and then Ryanair will take that to Boeing and force Boeing to give them a cheaper deal.. in which then Airbus gains nothing, and wastes a load of time and effort in trying to make a deal that will never happen. Unfortunatley for the Russians and Chinese, they are so desperate for a big order that they will do anything, but nothing will probably come of it.

Anyway I don't think Airbus would be too keen on having their delivery schedule clogged up with 300 Ryanair aircraft.. going on for years. That would certainly piss off a few other airlines that want delivery slots. Besides the NEO is selling very well at the moment, Airbus dont need Ryanair anyway

I may be wrong and Ryanair may go and buy some Russian or Chinese jets I just dont think it will happen.