Incompatibility of free will with an omnipotent/omniscient creator

[OrbitalDawn]

No. This is where the created nature of humans differ from angels. Angels obey, unquestioningly, and their wills necessarily conform in obedience to God. Humans have been granted free will. To say that an ominscient God cannot create beings with free will places unnecessary limits on Him.

Can an omnipotent God create beings whose will he has no control over? Wouldn't that contradict his omnipotence?

I understand and agree with you that we have wills, but not necessarily the power or ability to execute them. This is why we don't take the will to fly without the aid of technology or to see the future seriously. We know it's physically impossible. Therefore we filter our wills to fit within the parameters of reality as we understand it. This does not negate our ability to have these "wills", but that makes our "free will" essentially useless, as we're confined to play by rules decided externally.

He does NOT engineer Human will, but decides on whether or not to vest power into facilitating human action. Sometimes we succeed in our endeavours, and sometimes we don't. Our will is free and independent, but not "our" power.

You have to look at what determines our will. Let's use your prisoner example: As you said, your will is to have a sip of water. Why is this? You are thirsty or dehydrated. Did you will to be thirsty or dehydrated? Did you will your body to require H20? You are not in control of the circumstances and physical realities that determined your will. Your will doesn't just spring up out of nothingness, it's determined by your experience and situations you find yourself in. Another example: a guy is born with weak upper body strength, so he decides to go the gym to improve his muscles. His will is to improve his upper body muscles. His weak upper body strength is what determined his will, and he had absolutely no say in the matter of his upper body being weak. In reality, it seems to me your will is shaped by various factors that you have no control over. Who is in control of these things? It can only be the omnipotent creator. Subconsciously we realise the pointlessness of willing things that we are physically unable to do, so we disregard them. As mortal earth-dwellers, it leaves us within severely constraining parameters not of our own choosing, that play the main role in determining our will.

So, on a day to day level, we are stuck in a situation where the factors that determine our will are beyond our control. Perhaps I should instead talk about the apparent uselessness of our "free will". It seems at odds with a fair and just God to me. "You are free to choose differently, but be aware of the sword hanging over your head if you do..." What point is there in giving us free wills, if you're going to punish us for exercising it?

Our free wills have not been predetermined. We decide what to will, and if God facilitates it, then we are accountable.

If a person murders someone in cold blood, then God willed that person to be murdered, as the only way for the murderer's will to be turned into action was God granting him the ability to do so? Do you agree?

Take the following example: You are a prisoner, and your will is to have a sip of water. You tell the guard that you want water. The guard may grant or deny your request, and proceeds to grant you the water. You end up drinking the water. Whose will was done? If it was not your will to drink water, you would not be drinking it. If it was not the guard's will, you would also not be drinking it.

Is the guard an omnipotent deity that controls the physiology that made it necessary for you have to consume water?

EDIT: To the people saying I'm exercising my free will by typing this: How do you know I'm not a robot that was programmed to do exactly this?

[Nicodeamus]

Deism makes more sense in this regard then you have a choice, but if you don't follow it you go to hell. That is like government telling you that you have a choice to pay taxes.

[Sodan]

Deism makes more sense in this regard then you have a choice, but if you don't follow it you go to hell. That is like government telling you that you have a choice to pay taxes.

Or like your navigator showing you the quickest, safest route home, but giving you the free will to take any detours you want. The detours may result in anything from a minor to a significant delay, or might even result in you being trapped in a hellishly dangerous suburb. Still, you have the free will to decide.

[Bobbin]

I have as much free will as a rock has rolling down a hill.

At least this is what I believe. And I believe that my believing this is no different to my choices at any point as I would have come to believing it regardless, just as I would have made the choices I did and will do regardless.

However, believing this will also bring about making better choices in future as a matter of causality. Because understanding/accepting causality places all responsibility and control directly in my hands. Or at least is what puts me on that path as it was always going to do anyway.



And as a result of the above I don't have to believe in any existing version of a creator and I don't like any existing version either. But if He has a plan for me then I don't have free will anyway. Just as there is one fate no one can escape, so too would the judgement that is passed on everyone from said creator that dictates whether or not you are "worthy". Therefore even with the slightest hint of free will you have no choice on the matter.

[Ekstasis]

I see free will on many levels ,depending on the position of the individual. This also means different levels of limitations in free will

[alloytoo]

I see free will on many levels ,depending on the position of the individual. This also means different levels of limitations in free will

Unfortunately no such graduations occur with Omnisience and omnipotence.

[Anony]

This whole thread still seems bunk to me.

How can there be something that is omniscient but does not know how not to have any knowledge?
How can there be something that is omnipotent but does not have the power to annihilate itself?

And free will? What does it mean to be free?
What does it mean to have a will, what is the will and how can it ever be free and rational and causal?

None of the terms make sense to me, maybe someone can explain it.

At the moment this thread is like discussing the incompatibility of round squares with the existence of straight curves and married bachelors.

[noxibox]

I am not sure what you mean by this. If you are offering Satan as an example of a disobedient angel, then I'm afraid you have the wrong religion. Islam believes in the infallibility of angels, and has serious issues with the Judeo-Christian notion of a "fallen angel".

There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian. The concept is an entirely Christian invention. Christianity veers significantly away from Judaism, particularly in areas around the satans and how hell works.

[OrbitalDawn]

This whole thread still seems bunk to me.

How can there be something that is omniscient but does not know how not to have any knowledge?
How can there be something that is omnipotent but does not have the power to annihilate itself?

And free will? What does it mean to be free?
What does it mean to have a will, what is the will and how can it ever be free and rational and causal?

None of the terms make sense to me, maybe someone can explain it.

At the moment this thread is like discussing the incompatibility of round squares with the existence of straight curves and married bachelors.

That is the point of the thread. Religious folk claim God is omniscient/omnipotent, and that we have free will. As you and others have explained, that is fundamentally not possible, so something has to give. I made the thread because I don't think this obvious (and yet farreaching) flaw is pointed out enough.

[SEF]

So we're always hearing about the role "free will" plays in our lives with regard to our creator. We're told that we have a free choice in the matter (always seemed like a cruel ultimatum to me), and this got me thinking: is true free will possible in a universe where the creator is both omnipotent and omniscient?

Firstly, wouldn't the act of granting free will negate this creator's omnipotence, making it something of a contradiction?

Secondly, if there is free will for us mortals, then the outcome of our decisions cannot be predetermined. This creator then cannot be omniscient as he can't know the outcome of non-predetermined actions. If our actions are predetermined, then it's not free will, merely the illusion of it.

Thoughts?

What's wrong with contradiction ? Contradictions that exist. For instance. Both light and dark exist. Why not just one or the other ?

Peace and violence. That's a contradiction.

There's contradictions all over the place.

People are too hung up on contradictions and too hung up on trying to make sense out of everything. Instead of just accepting things for what they are. The universe is infinite and evolving. There will always be things playing out against each other which "don't make sense"

A creator has to be omniscient otherwise there would not be spiritual evolution. A creator can know everything, and you can still have free will. Free will to do whatever you want. The main focus is your spiritual evolution.

A creator has to be omnipotence otherwise there would not be creation.

The problem arises in the definition of the Creator and what the Creator actually does. It's usually convoluted to such an extent that the Creator is made out to be tyranical and a bully.

Which is not only unfair but completely incorrect.

[copacetic]

Those are not contradictions, those are opposites...

[SEF]

opposites are for sure contradictions as well.

[copacetic]

No, they are not. What language are you trying to speak here?

When certain opposites are said to coexist at the same time, that is a contradiction.

The examples you gave have absolutely no bearing on the logical inconsistencies brought up by this topic, at all.

[eshwar]

Simple, your choice is not predetermined but the choice you end up making is known. So, you have free will... And for everyone here who doesn't believe in a creator, take a hard look at why we're so much ahead of other species and how sometimes things just work out...

[SEF]

No, they are not. What language are you trying to speak here?

When certain opposites are said to coexist at the same time, that is a contradiction.

The examples you gave have absolutely no bearing on the logical inconsistencies brought up by this topic, at all.

maybe you and i should stop speaking because you never understand anything i say