FAO: Skywalker42 - Questions about living off the reserve

[scudsucker]

Theres only really three things that Freemen believe in when you break it down into nuts and bolts- Cause injury to nobody, or damage to their belongings and commit no mischief in your agreements.

I think you missed "leach off the taxpayer who pays for your use of roads, sewerage and other infrastructure" - clearly one of the core concepts of you refuse to pay tax.

The whole concept is a nice theory but meaningless in practice. You are going to tell a cop at a roadblock that he can't arrest you? Good luck.

[Skywalker42]

forwarded to SARS.

Good, please send them THIS too.

[Vegeta]

Freshy-ZA you say Freemen buy houses and cars with money? In SA you can't buy a house or car without an SA ID also where do they get money to buy these things seeing as you need to have a SA ID to get a JOB to get money. Also you need a bank account for you salary to be paid into with FICA you're unable to open a bank account without a SA ID.

I don't understand basically the only way to live like a "freeman" is like a homeless jobless person either with family that are "on the grid" or you'll have to live of the streets, streets that are owned by the SA government already putting you "on the grid" again.

[Vegeta]

Good, please send them THIS too.

Dude that's just a poster... its not a LAW of this country.

[Skywalker42]

Don't see how a freeman gets out off the definition of gross income in the Income Tax Act (ITA).

Gross Income

in relation to any year or period of assessment, means,

i) in the case of any resident, the total amount, in cash or otherwise, received by or accrued to or in favour of such resident, or

ii) in the case of any person other than a resident, the total amount, in cash or otherwise, received by or accrued to or in favour of such person from a source within or deemed to be within the Republic,

A Sovereign is not a "resident", unless he wants to be.

See THIS (crude) diagram on Jurisdiction.

[Vegeta]

A Sovereign is not a "resident", unless he wants to be.

But he is still a PERSON! ie he falls within this definition. Again just answer my questions please! And again if you earn money from a JOB, that job will most probably be deemed within the Republic of SA unless its outside of our borders and then you will be taxed freeman or not.

You say Freemen buy houses and cars with money? In SA you can't buy a house or car without an SA ID also where do they get money to buy these things seeing as you need to have a SA ID to get a JOB to get money. Also you need a bank account for your salary to be paid into with FICA you're unable to open a bank account without a SA ID.

I don't understand basically the only way to live like a "freeman" is like a homeless jobless person either with family that are "on the grid" or you'll have to live on the streets, streets that are owned by the SA government already putting you "on the grid" again.

[Freshy-ZN]

I think you missed "leach off the taxpayer who pays for your use of roads, sewerage and other infrastructure" - clearly one of the core concepts of you refuse to pay tax.

The whole concept is a nice theory but meaningless in practice. You are going to tell a cop at a roadblock that he can't arrest you? Good luck.

I pay for roads by the tax on fuel and tax on drivers licenses. My rates pay for sewage disposal. If you want to split hairs I am only forced to use the roads to get from A to B because they have given me no choice but to do so, so in essence my freedom to choose has been removed. (Im not necessarily saying these beliefs are valid or you have to agree with them, just food for thought)

And regarding telling a cop he cant arrest me- I probably wouldnt do that because it would create additional conflict but he would be advised to understand whether he is acting as a peace officer or a revenue collector for his employee. As the later he would be acting with full commercial liability and when they understand that they arent so keen to do certain things any more.

Freshy-ZA you say Freemen buy houses and cars with money? In SA you can't buy a house or car without an SA ID also where do they get money to buy these things seeing as you need to have a SA ID to get a JOB to get money. Also you need a bank account for you salary to be paid into with FICA you're unable to open a bank account without a SA ID.

I havent managed to answer all these questions myself.

I don't understand basically the only way to live like a "freeman" is like a homeless jobless person either with family that are "on the grid" or you'll have to live of the streets, streets that are owned by the SA government already putting you "on the grid" again.

For some true freedom is perhaps more important. For others they may choose to rely on the State.

[Vegeta]

For some true freedom is perhaps more important. For others they may choose to rely on the State.

Agg no man how does that answer my questions?

[Freshy-ZN]

Sorry man Im trying! Im not a Freeman so Im just trying to tell you what I understand their ideas to be.

[scudsucker]

....and when they understand that they arent so keen to do certain things any more.

Haha.. the average cop only just passed matric. Do you think he will agree with you? Or do you think you'll be spending time in jail?



Edit - I see you are not a "freeman" - do you know anyone who claims to be one?

[Freshy-ZN]

Haha.. the average cop only just passed matric. Do you think he will agree with you? Or do you think you'll be spending time in jail?

Which is why its probably better to not make the situation worse and to rather argue with an 'intelligent' judge or something later.
Let me just add that Im talking about things like drivers licenses and not being arrested for murder or something.

Edit - I see you are not a "freeman" - do you know anyone who claims to be one?

Well I know people who are striving to be but to be honest I dont know of anyone who is there yet. Keep in mind 'there' is a subjective ideal.

I also follow the 'movement' very closely, because it appeals to me I suppose, and I also have to be honest and say I have seen some ground breaking things happen.

[Skywalker42]

Very wide



It will include the normal dictionary meaning and 'includes' the rest because some taxpayers tried to be clever.

No. The "law" is not written in English but in a foreign language that looks like English called Legalese.
In legalese the words includes/including means the exclusion of everything else.

English:
Breakfast includes bacon and eggs.
You might find there is some toast and orange juice too.

Legalese:
Breakfast includes bacon and eggs.
You get bacon and eggs, nothing more, nothing less.

[Vegeta]

No. The "law" is not written in English but in a foreign language that looks like English called Legalese.

This is beginning to sound like a conspiracy cult type of thing... I can understand maybe Latin but Legalese BWAHAHA seriously? I'm sorry sir but seriously?

[VJB 449]

Resident is also defined in the Income Tax Act.
_______________________
Meaning of ‘resident’
The concept of ‘resident’ is fundamental to the residence-based system of taxation. A person who qualifies as a ‘resident’ as defined in s 1 is subject to tax in the Republic on receipts and accruals from all sources (para (i) of the definition of ‘gross income’ in s 1), subject to certain exceptions. A non-resident, that is, a person who does not qualify as a resident, is subject to tax in the Republic only on receipts and accruals from a source within or deemed to be within the Republic (para (ii) of the definition of the term ‘gross income’ in s 1), again subject to certain exceptions.

In determining the liability of residents to tax in the Republic on income from non-Republic sources, or non-residents on income from sources within or deemed to be within the Republic, the effect of a double tax agreement between the Republic and the relevant foreign country must be borne in mind.

The following persons are defined as being ‘resident’:
• A natural person who is ordinarily resident in the Republic.
• A natural person who is not at any time during the year of assessment ordinarily resident in the Republic, if such person is physically present in the Republic for certain periods.
• A person other than a natural person which is incorporated, established or formed in the Republic.
• A person other than a natural person which has its place of effective management in the Republic.
____________________________________

'Ordinarily resident' is not defined in the Act.

Courts defined it as follows:

More generally, ‘one is ordinarily resident in the country where, in the settled routine of his life he regularly, normally or customarily lives’. Put somewhat differently, a person’s ordinary residence will, essentially, be the country that he regards as his home and to which he would naturally and as a matter of course return from his wanderings.

Sorry I still see no way out of tax for a freeman.

[Skywalker42]

Guys we're drifting off topic here with SARS and silly definitions and things, the questions are simple ANSWER THEM DAMMIT!

How do you get a job/things to live off? How do you cross borders of countries? How do you get insurance? How do you buy a home? How are you allowed to drive on the roads owned by "The South African Government corporation of evil" How do you use evil's internets? (he said they pay no toll that must mean they DRIVE how do they buy cars? Do you build your own cars?)

How do you NOT get arrested if you have no identity?(illegal immigrant much?) How do you drive without a license without going to jail? How do you get stuff to barter that's to say that you obtain your food that way? Do you drill for your own oil and make it into petrol for above mentioned self build cars? How do you own land to drill for oil if you dont have an ID? AND SO MANY MORE QUESTIONS I'M GOING CRAZY HERE PLEASE!! TELL ME!

I have not done the paperwork to become a Sovereign/Freeman-on-the-land YET. I have studied the idea for about 3 years now but that was mainly in Canada, USA and UK. And only recently ( about 18 months ago ) discovered that it has actually blown over to SA. And yes, my head also exploded in the beginning, but slowly it started to make a lot of sense to me. I have downloaded more than 4 GB of material, videos, books and documents.

My experience so far was that there are different paths/Schools of thought to become sovereign. It is a big subject and of course very controversial. Governments certainly don't like the idea and you will find lots of negative stuff all over the net.

The one "path" is to abandon everything. Your ID, citizenship, bank accounts etc. Like the guy in the UNGRIP movie on Youtube.

The other path is the one that Johan Joubert followed and it worked. He did not abandon his ID or anything.
Here is an extract from a document he wrote on how to file the affadavit.

2. Should you then choose to move forward you will be in essence setting yourself up as a “Functional Sovereign Freeman” operating in common law defined in point 7 of the contract and revoking the governments right to use your “STRAWMAN” legal TRUST, registered by your birth certificate under statutory law. You do however within your contract, retain the right to use your “STRAWMAN” identity referenced under point 60 and 305.

The problem with the ID Number, Bank Account and getting a job also what worried me initially.