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Thread: LCD and Plasma Bargains and Discussions thread

  1. #916
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    Thats a simplistic view, not taking into account the relative value of the content for the majority of viewers. A parlimentary debate cant hold a candle to the Euro 2012 final. Variety of low grade content in my opinion is far less important than the premium experience of (limited) high value content.

    None of this is at issue. My point has remaind very clear start, if you're going to be spending your hard earned money on new (HD) equipment, why purchase stuff that will perpetuate the experience standard you're already used to (SD, with some minor enhancements). Far wiser to invest in stuff that will carry you forward to experience the benefits of full HD.

    Based on my long-term 1st hand experience of comparing (full) HD to SD, HD is worlds apart, no other upgrade provides quite the same wow factor.
    Really have no idea what you're going on about (and why). Please quote the post you take issue with.

    If anything you confirm the fact that the difference between HD and SD TV is such that people who might watch SD programs/content (whom you aren't concerned about) appreciate SD being displayed well. The difference between SD on a 720p plasma (particularly 43") and a 1080p LCD is equally big.

    As someone who up until recently had a 54cm CRT, replaced with a 32" FHD LCD, not to mention the 42" HDR plasma, I can sympathise with them.

    Not one forumite in the past 2-3 years who's bought a 42/43" HDR plasma has complained. Okay there was one, killadoob, because he connected it to his PC for gaming and it didn't look good close up. This is something always advised.

    So your continued insistance that its fine to carry on ploughing money into SD (optimised) equipment leads me to the conclusion that you do not have the 1st hand experience to have appreciated the vast difference.
    Nonsense on both accusations.

    CNET raise other important issues which I raised but you refused to acknowledge. Always assuming close up viewing and other such preferred conditions.

    How important is resolution?
    Although resolution separates HDTV from standard-definition TV, it's not as important to overall picture quality as other factors. According to the Imaging Science Foundation, a group that consults for home-theater manufacturers and trains professional video calibrators, the most important aspect of picture quality is contrast ratio the second most important is color saturation, and the third is color accuracy. Resolution comes in fourth, despite being the most-cited HDTV specification.

    The point is, once you get to high-definition, it's difficult to discern further improvements in the sharpness of the picture. All other things being equal--namely contrast and color--HDTV looks more or less spectacular on just about any high-definition television regardless of its size, native resolution, or the HDTV signal's resolution itself. The leap from normal TV to HDTV is so big that additional leaps in resolution--from high-definition to higher-definition, let's say--are tiny by comparison.
    Despite the obvious difference in pixel count, 720p and 1080i both look great. In fact, unless you have a very large television and excellent source material, you'll have a hard time telling the difference between any of the HDTV resolutions. It's especially difficult to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p sources. The difference between DVD and HDTV should be visible on most HDTVs, but especially on smaller sets, it's not nearly as drastic as the difference between standard TV and HDTV.
    Technically speaking, all of these numbers are accurate and useful, but don't put too much stock in them. In the real world, it's difficult to tell the difference between native resolutions once you get into high-definition. For example, despite the fact that a 37-inch LCD with "only" 1,366x768 pixels has to throw away a good deal of information to display a 1080i football game on CBS, you'd be hard-pressed to see more detail on a similar 37-inch LCD with 1,920x1,080 resolution.
    The truth about 1080p
    In the last couple of years, HDTVs with 1080p native resolution have taken over the market at nearly every price and size point. But as we've been saying all along, once you get to high-definition, the difference between resolutions becomes much more difficult to appreciate. We've done numerous side-by-side tests between two same-size HDTVs, one with 1080p resolution and another with lower resolution, and every time it's been almost impossible to see the difference with regular program material, especially when that material is moving. The difference becomes even more difficult to see at smaller screen sizes or farther seating distances--say, more than 1.5 times the diagonal measurement of the screen. For example, to see the benefits of stationary 1080p content on a 50-inch screen, you'll generally need to sit about 6.5 feet or closer. Few viewers want to sit that close, especially when low-quality content seen at that distance (remember the "garbage" maxim?) looks so bad. The main visible benefit of 1080p native resolution comes when the display is asked to show computer sources. With a PC set to output 1080p resolution and a 1080p display that can accept it, computer desktops and text generally look superb, and quite a bit better than when displayed on a TV with lower native resolution. But for movies, games, and other standard video material, the benefits of 1080p are negligible unless you're sitting quite close. That doesn't matter much anymore though. 1080p native resolution is so common among HDTVs, and has so little impact, that you shouldn't even consider it as a factor in your purchasing decision. As we mentioned at the top, factors like contrast and color are more important to image quality, and unfortunately, you can't depend on a specification sheet for an accurate representation of those factors.
    So while resolution is important, I think it's disengenuous to suggest to laymen so much reliance on it. As I said, someone sitting relatively far back who isn't able to tell the difference between HD resolutions would be better off with a higher contrast (plasma) TV, perhaps bigger too.

    You refuse to acknowledge these people.
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  2. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    Still doesnt prove its yours, and that you use it day to day. Also no confirmation that its running premium bouquet. And finally even if it is, running it on a 1024x768 display does not prove you understand/appreciate the difference full HD has over SD.
    Need I get other forumites to confirm for you?

    I've sat behind a PC since I was 10 prior to Y2K and have experienced all the techs. I can well tell the difference, lol, I've had 1024x768 CRTs, 1440x900 PC LCDs, 1920x1080 PC LCDs, a 1920x1200 PC LCD; an HD PVR2P for close to 2 years, a 42" HD Ready plasma, a C550 32" FHD LCD used as a PC screen (now TV/PC) for 1 year running a multitude of SD and HD sources, gaming, and HD PVR, I've had >100 hours experience analysing a CX520 46" FHD LCD with HD PVR and PS3.

    It's bonkers how you're accusing me of underestimating HD quality.
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  3. #918

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    So while resolution is important, I think it's disengenuous to suggest to laymen so much reliance on it.
    Please show me one recent HD-Ready (1024x768) professional review where the outcome is something like "This set is so brilliant that we've changed our minds and are now recommending that you shouldnt be investing in a full 1080p HDTV"?

    In my experience they go something like this (commenting on the Samsung PS43D450 vs LG 42PT350, both 1024x768 plasma displays) ...

    The Samsung showed resolution scaling problems just as bad as the LG, along with some color performance issues. That said, we were impressed with the black level and contrast ratio. It’s not a great TV, but neither is the LG PT350. They’re both entry-level slackers that get the job done but don’t excel at it.
    Source: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...g-PN51D450.htm
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  4. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    Please show me one recent HD-Ready (1024x768) professional review where the outcome is something like "This set is so brilliant that we've changed our minds and are now recommending that you shouldnt be investing in a full 1080p HDTV"?

    In my experience they go something like this (commenting on the Samsung PS43D450 vs LG 42PT350, both 1024x768 plasma displays) ...



    Source: http://www.televisioninfo.com/conten...g-PN51D450.htm
    This really achieves nothing. Once again it's test/ideal scenarios, conditions, sources, which do not take into account individual users, their viewing distance, their viewing content.

    It's childish. I wouldn't ask why HD Ready plasmas continue to get rated better than FHD LCDs.

    1) Most people cannot tell the difference between native HD resolutions
    2) Many people's viewing involves much SD content
    3) 720p plasma, especially 43", performs better at SD than 1080p LCD
    4) #1, it does good at HD as well. Best of both worlds!

    The notion of any other points you choose to draw from my argument, are simply fabricated by you.
    Last edited by PostmanPot; 03-07-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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  5. #920

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    It's childish. I wouldn't ask why HD Ready plasmas continue to get rated better than FHD LCDs.
    Certainly not by professional reviewers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    1) Most people cannot tell the difference between native HD resolutions
    The point of spending money on HD is to appreciate it, so choose the correct viewing distance relative to the largest size of screen you can afford. If you're not in the position to do this, then you might as well go to Cash Crusaders and pick up a CRT for far less money, it aint going to make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    2) Many people's viewing involves much SD content
    This discussion is about the appreciation of (full) HD

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    3) 720p plasma, especially 43", performs better at SD than 1080p LCD
    With an HDPVR upscaling to 1080i, I'd put them very close. Anyway answer to 2) applies as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    4) #1, it does good at HD as well.
    The objective is not to do it 'well', to appreciate full (HD) you need to see it at its full potential (1920x1080).

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Best of both worlds!
    Hardly, as illustrated in the review excerpt above.
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  6. #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    Certainly not by professional reviewers.
    Might want to check your source site again and the general rankings.

    The point of spending money on HD is to appreciate it, so choose the correct viewing distance relative to the largest size of screen you can afford. If you're not in the position to do this, then you might as well go to Cash Crusaders and pick up a CRT for far less money, it aint going to make a difference.
    The point is that viewing distance plays a role in HD appreciation, add to this the fact that most people cannot tell the difference between HD sources. HD is appreciated less the further one sits. Not everyone site 1-1.5m from a 32", 1.5-2m from a 40", etc. according to the ideal 2*diagonal-of-TV viewing distance.

    The experts agree.

    Not sure why anyone with cash who wants to watch HD and SD would settle for a less than HD Ready screen since it won't work for HD.

    This discussion is about the appreciation of (full) HD
    Nope it's about SD still being important to many people. Quote the post you are replying to where I disagree about FHD. Reckon you missed the ball with this one.

    With an HDPVR upscaling to 1080i, I'd put them very close. Anyway answer to 2) applies as well.
    At least we agree that what I've said all along is correct. Anyway you've clearly shown lack of care for anything SD and especially how it disaplys on lower end LCDs. Compared to myself and others who still value SD being displayed nicely, who constantly compare it on multiple TVs, and therefore are more picky about it leading to understanding what looks better.

    The objective is not to do it 'well', to appreciate full (HD) you need to see it at its full potential (1920x1080).
    When you're at longer viewing distances, you're relying on the potential of the eye since most people cannot tell a difference between HD sources.

    Hardly, as illustrated in the review excerpt above.
    Guess I'm getting the best of both worlds then, always happy with the SD and HD display.
    Last edited by PostmanPot; 03-07-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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  7. #922

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    40" LED or CCFL advice please...

    I'm looking at a second TV and have seen these two...

    Sony 40cx520 = R5k @ Makro
    Sony 40ex520 = R6k @ Game

    I have an irrational Sony bias.

    What else is out there at 40" 5k to 6k range?

    Is it worth finding something that passes the 4:4:4 chroma sampling?
    Last edited by DuncanCT; 03-07-2012 at 08:11 PM.

  8. #923

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Might want to check your source site again and the general rankings.
    OK ... highest rated HD-Ready screen I could find was the PN51D450 at 7.6, with a slightly more respectable 1366x768 res compared to your beloved 1024x768. Lets take a look at their conclusions ...

    Due to its inappropriately small native resolution of 720p and large size, picture quality suffers immensely.

    The PN51D450 does have its bright spots, however, as its black and white performance is outstanding. Still, this isn’t enough to excuse the terrible resolution problems it suffers, and it may be better to pass on this TV unless you are looking for a big screen to put behind a bar or at a huge distance away from a viewer.
    Oops, same as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Not everyone site 1-1.5m from a 32", 1.5-2m from a 40"
    Mmm, the above excerpt gives some clues as to why.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    The pseudo experts agree.
    Fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Not sure why anyone with cash who wants to watch HD and SD would settle for a less than HD Ready screen since it won't work for HD.
    They shouldn't, since a HDPVR via HDMI to a 1024x768 panel & via composite RCA to a CRT is roughly the same out of date experience. The smart money would go toward a 1080i HDPVR + 1080p panel.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Anyway you've clearly shown lack of care for anything SD and especially how it disaplys on lower end LCDs.
    I do, that's why I recommend getting an HDPVR which upscales SD to a 1080p TV's native 1920x1080 res, while placing no limitation on displaying full HD to its maximum potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Guess I'm getting the best of both worlds then
    No, its obvious to most what the best of both worlds solution is.
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  9. #924

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    We've lost interest, Roman and Pot. Time to move it to another thread? Pls?
    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    OK ... highest rated HD-Ready screen I could find was the PN51D450 at 7.6, with a slightly more respectable 1366x768 res compared to your beloved 1024x768. Lets take a look at their conclusions ...



    Oops, same as before.

    Mmm, the above excerpt gives some clues as to why.

    Fixed.

    They shouldn't, since a HDPVR via HDMI to a 1024x768 panel & via composite RCA to a CRT is roughly the same out of date experience. The smart money would go toward a 1080i HDPVR + 1080p panel.

    I do, that's why I recommend getting an HDPVR which upscales SD to a 1080p TV's native 1920x1080 res, while placing no limitation on displaying full HD to its maximum potential.

    No, its obvious to most what the best of both worlds solution is.

  10. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman4604 View Post
    OK ... highest rated HD-Ready screen I could find was the PN51D450 at 7.6, with a slightly more respectable 1366x768 res compared to your beloved 1024x768. Lets take a look at their conclusions ...

    Oops, same as before.
    Yet it was the same one you quoted about having scaling issues. Rated 7.3!

    So once again, we highlight that scaling (and resolution) is not as important as you make it out to be. It's the reason CNET put resolution as the 4th most important factor.

    None of these take into account the viewing distance of each individual, bear in mind. Viewing distance is important when advising.

    Mmm, the above excerpt gives some clues as to why.
    Not at all, since what's above only takes into account close viewing distance where the scaling and lower resolution would be noticeable.

    Unfortunately for your argument, most houses are designed sensibly with longer viewing distances than 2m - at least in my experience which is quite good.

    Fixed.
    Not true, you know very well that the experts agree, and I already quoted them.

    They shouldn't, since a HDPVR via HDMI to a 1024x768 panel & via composite RCA to a CRT is roughly the same out of date experience. The smart money would go toward a 1080i HDPVR + 1080p panel.
    No it wouldn't be. Smart is to only specifically insist on 1080p panels when you're sitting close. Entry 720p plasmas continuously blow entry 1080p LCDs away. Once again, resulution is not as important, and the countless buyers over the years can attest to this. It's pedantic worrying about resolution when sitting far away, given most people cannot tell the difference between HD content.

    I do, that's why I recommend getting an HDPVR which upscales SD to a 1080p TV's native 1920x1080 res, while placing no limitation on displaying full HD to its maximum potential.
    But it's still better on a entry HDR plasma, which we've already established. The full potential of Full HD is only realised when sitting close unfortunately, at least for 99% of people. Should I pull up more experts?

    No, its obvious to most what the best of both worlds solution is.
    I disagree, since SD whether upscaled or not, suffers on 1080p panels, especially LCDs. Even 1080p plasmas are more forgiving.
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  11. #926

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    Well no visitors can get over how good ALL channels sd and hd plus even less than sd videos look on my 43" hd ready Samsung 43d490. I'm glad I never forked out the extra cash for full hd. As the price difference would not have been worth it from seeing other people's full hd 1080i tv channels. But I suppose if you rent or buy a lot of blurays it will probably be worth it, but only for that.

  12. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by D1RTY D4WG View Post
    Well no visitors can get over how good ALL channels sd and hd plus even less than sd videos look on my 43" hd ready Samsung 43d490. I'm glad I never forked out the extra cash for full hd. As the price difference would not have been worth it from seeing other people's full hd 1080i tv channels. But I suppose if you rent or buy a lot of blurays it will probably be worth it, but only for that.
    Same with my PS42C450. Owners of 1080p LCDs and HD PVRs always comment on how good my DSTV HD, SD, and sports channels look. Viewing distance and lighting are the keys (and no, it's not dim during the day yet produces a phenominal picture unmatched by similar LCD/LED-LCDs).

    If I had a lot of 1080p media, like Blu-rays as you said, or if I connected my PC to my TV, or sat closer than 2.5 - 4m, of course I wouldn't have gone with 42" HD Ready plasma. I have a FHD LCD for that. Who on earth would advise 43" plasma for those purposes?
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  13. #928

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    It's like those B&O speakers I saw at a local hifi shop in the late 80s - they cost R80k back then and the sales pitch was that 'you could hear the spit in the artist's mouth as they sang'. Nice sales pitch lol. Honestly? The recording equipment VERY SELDOM matches the output potential.
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  14. #929

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Yet it was the same one you quoted about having scaling issues. Rated 7.3!
    If you paid any attention to detail you'd see the 1st excerpt was from a LG 42PT350 review done by David Kender and the 2nd from the PN51D450 review by Chris Thomas.

    Two different reviews, reviewers, models (LG & Samsung), same conclusion. HD-Ready TVs are unable to depict the full 1080p HD experience and are dinosaurs in this day & age.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Not true, you know very well that the experts agree, and I already quoted them.
    All you've quoted is yourself using generic information twisted to your own purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Entry 720p plasmas continuously blow entry 1080p LCDs away.
    Again your unsubstantiated opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    countless buyers over the years can attest to this.
    Relative to their scope of their own experience. If you havent experienced better, what you have will seem like the best possible.

    That's why opinion of professional reviewers with breadth of in-depth experience covering the enitre spectrum of whats avaliable are the only credible source of unbiased opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PostmanPot View Post
    Should I pull up more experts?
    Yes, I'd like to see recent model specific reviews/opinion which indicated purchasing a HD-Ready TV these days is a wiser, superior option to comparible FHD models. And generic information taken out of context doesnt count.
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  15. #930
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    These daily deals are normally a rip off most times...but this deal is cheap, as a quick internet search has the cheapest price at R9k. This one is going for R7999. Thought someone might be looking?

    SONY - 40” 3D Bravia Internet Full HD LED TV
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